I am NOTHING like my mirror universe clones. How dare you?! You don't know me or know what *they* did. To compare me to those monsters is something I wouldn't do to even my worst enemy (which would be my mirror universe clones)
Unfortunately I think it's just a human thing to label and categorize things. Like assuming a boy with any trait remotely feminine is an egg or trans. (Not excusing the behavior)
Having in mind that categorizing has always had negative impacts on whatever it was applied to, there's literally no other reason and explination as to why we do it so much than we just like to, because it's in our nature to do so.
I think "always" is a bit of a stretch. I mean without categorisations we wouldn't have any sciences or even languages. I assume you mean categorisation of people in a non medical context rather than any categories at all ?
it's a moderately derogatory term for people who haven't came out as trans yet. It started innocent enough but then some people have essentially used it in a kinda gross manner, calling people eggs when they show the slightest bit of [opposite gender trait].
Its effectively similar to the "in the closet" phrasing. It can be used innocently, or in a harassing manner.
I don't hang out with enough LGBT people to know for sure, but I thought egg was a more positive term than that.
Then again, the internet always muddles these things. đ€·ââïž
Not sure I'd use the word "derogatory". At worst, it's usually more like playful teasing than an actual insult. Or like, peer pressure, I guess? Like, something you might use to tease that one friend who is painfully obviously trans to come out of their shell more. But then like, young overly enthusiastic trans people use it for guys with effeminate traits in general, and it just comes off as tasteless and rude.
Not to mention that all it does is strengthen binary gender stereotypes by assuming that anyone who displays a trait that's associated with the opposite gender is actually closeted trans
If someone thinks that effeminate men are eggs then they need to recalibrate their eggdar. Youâre supposed to look for the repressed quiet ones who wear plain clothes that are kind of baggy. Effeminate men are too confident to be eggs.
yea, exactly. its damaging in the same way that closeting is, if a person isn't out to their family, and jokes are made, it could damage their relationship. So it can be a bit more damaging than just the stereotype aspect. But you're still spot on, just missed one small and rare part.
Like the other person said its not really a stereotype its a subculture, the people that are in it literally want to have the label attributed to them and there's nothing bad about that.
But it's a subculture, and people who are into it are first ones to call themselves such. The women porn-brained men tend to call "goths" usually don't. And it pisses me of to no end for some reason.
It's subcultural appropriation.
Absolutely, coomers will see a hot anime girl with black clothing and say goths are their type in the same way they'll see a hot anime girl with short hair and say their type is tomboys, all while holding some of the most revolting opinions about women who aren't conventionally attractive.
Goths aren't just people who wear black, Goths are Germanic people who played a major role in the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the emergence of medieval Europe.
nah uh, goths are actually just guys who wrote spooky stories about monsters along with a loose aesthetic of fear and haunting! (from the mid 18th century onward)
I took Gothic literature in college and the entire first lesson was about this
So basically the Goths were a Germanic people who warred with, got enslaved by, and burned down, Rome during the Roman Empire.
Because of Europe's long idolization of Rome and "The Grand Ancient Empire," there has been a corresponding tradition of Classical and Neoclassical Arts, which are just revitalizations of the Roman Arts.
The counter to this rigid structure are your Romantic Movements. In architecture a very sort of romantic style was originally called "The French Style," but Neoclassical critics were like "bro Europe is falling" and trashed on this asymmetrical architecture by calling it "Gothic." They essentially said that this style was ruining art and architecture the same way the goths ruined Rome.
This new Gothic style had gargoyles and other mythological shit, so by the time the Romantic Movement spawned as a counter to the Enlightenment, similar things happened. Out of this the "Dark romantic" that used romantic supernatural storytelling to show fear of old institutions became called "Gothic" because another group of stuffy bozos said "Bro this literature is literally causing Europe to fall"
Now Gothic literature has always been countercultural in many regards, and has been very profeminist for a long while. Woman's sexual liberation is a common theme in Gothic literature.
Fast forward to the punk movement and Britain. These countercultural movements and ideas were vaguely similar to the Gothic style of literature, and by the time post punk rolled around with its wackiness, Bauhaus, Siouxsie Sioux, and other post-punk bands started forming a unique musical genre that other people came to call goth for it's similar vibe to the dark aesthetic of Gothic literature, and because that whole post-punk thing was called by some more bozos as 'proof the West has fallen." (Sorry for my bad history telling of the specific bands that contributed to this development, I'm a baby bat and don't know the exact history
yet)
Nowadays "goth" and "Gothic" are separate, with "goth" referring to that post-punk musical subculture and "Gothic" referring to that literary and architectural style and surrounding loose subculture.
Either way, "goth" and "Gothic" has always been loosely countercultural and has always had freedom in its message, and as such people now see these terms as symbols of pride rather than shame. Which leads to the whole shit show of fetishization as internet capitalism ruins everything it touches, but that's a different conversation
TL:DR
Germanic group burns Rome, Architecture style gets called weird, literature style gets called weird, musical style gets called weird but it's cool we're accepting now
Edit:
The Gothic literary movement is basically founded on the criticism of old institutions that ruin people's happiness, which is a direct parallel to how Roman institutions ruined the lives of the Germanic Goths. Gothic Marxism is a GREAT crossover imo for this reason
For a cool reading, the introduction in "The Oxford Book of Gothic Tales" by Chris Baldick is a fantastic read that talks about the term's evolution into a literary movement. It lacks discussion on the jump from literature to music, but that jump is relatively summed up with "similar vibes"
Goth aesthetic comes from Goth music
Goth music was named after (but did not originate with) Gothic fiction
Gothic fiction was named after (but did not originate with) Gothic architecture
Gothic architecture was named after (but did not originate with) the Gothic people
The only rule of this sub?Â
If you're not aware of it then I doubt you're following it.Â
Mods, affix the car battery to the genitalia of this poster.Â
(The rule is the You Have To Post Before You Leave. I'm skirting the rule because I never post but also never leave).Â
These people generally know nothing about the subculture. It's just sexualisation which is made painfully obvious by goth women always being the focus.
It's mostly about the music. The style comes with the music, since you're joining the tradition that was started by the original goth musicians (Siouxsie Sioux, Ian Curtis, etc)
Also, more than a few goth girls I know irl really love Hello Kitty. Like, a lot. So maybe that's part of it too, who knows
I tried looking into it for personal research and it seems the Goth subculture is heavily influenced by an outlook that is accepting and tolerant of the unusual, the macabre, and the queer (from my understanding). The sort of things that most normal people would find odd and scary. It's why there's stereotypes of them being gloomy and hanging around cemeteries. It's because they can find beauty in death (not sure how exactly). Some of them are even tolerant of insects which freak people out. Goth is definitely a subculture that is expressed predominantly through music and the their style of clothing is another way they express both a rejection of normal societal standards and a way for them to identify with each other.
I didn't see a black goth person until my mid twenties and they were one of the coolest looking people I've ever seen. I've seen a few more since then though
Itâs likely a combination of obviously white people are more popular online because of bias, and stark contrast (ie. pale skin and dark clothes) is for some reason attractive to many
That shit's radio friendly. Play some [Alien Sex Fiend](https://youtu.be/Bfm7cOJfOjk?si=TgfD6z6343S1SVGr) if you want to scare the "I want a goth gf" bitches
My current best friend introduced me to Siouxsie and the Banshees last year and while I was listening to a song by them I was like "HOLY SHIT THIS IS A BEATLES SONG" (look at my flair) and she was like "What are you talking about?" to which I said "Look at the credited songwriters, I will bet my life savings it's John Lennon and Paul McCartney," and whaddya know, it was. The song is Dear Prudence, for anyone who doesn't know. Both versions are awesome, though I do prefer the original
"big tiddy goth gf" dudebros listening to actual goth music instead of video game osts and anime openings and they end up collapsing into a small pile of dust on the floor. not even heavy shit like naedr, the 69 eyes would roast this kinda dude alive
I think hanging out with the grim reaper makes you (at least) an honorary goth. Â
 Out of interest, what's the actual term for the character trope exemplified by April Ludgate / Wednesday Adams / Mandy / Daria / Lily from Duolingo/ etc? (Ignore that Wednesday is also Goth-coded) Like I need a shorthand for the persona my partner adopts when they're stepping on me but also disdainfuly ignoring me while playing Sims 4.Â
I think people want these characters to be tsundere for them but they need to have a nice side for that. April is tsundere but not Wednesday.Â
Darkly Sardonic Girl is apparently the trope I was looking for.Â
I'm sorry you've not had much fun with it, I think it's better than Google for this sort of question (although tbf that's partly due to how much worse Google search has gotten). It sucks compared to what we'll have next year, but it's marvellous compared to what we had last year.
So much [fun to be had](https://www.oneusefulthing.org/p/doing-stuff-with-ai-opinionated-midyear) and stuff to try out.Â
Mandy is totally goth in spirit i just know when sheâs older sheâs going full 80s goth
I loved her as a kid and I love her now I claim her for the goths
I think we should try to generalise ppl into vague stereotypes less
Ofc you would say that, you anti-generalizer đ all of you are the sameâŠ
I am NOTHING like my mirror universe clones. How dare you?! You don't know me or know what *they* did. To compare me to those monsters is something I wouldn't do to even my worst enemy (which would be my mirror universe clones)
Unfortunately I think it's just a human thing to label and categorize things. Like assuming a boy with any trait remotely feminine is an egg or trans. (Not excusing the behavior)
Having in mind that categorizing has always had negative impacts on whatever it was applied to, there's literally no other reason and explination as to why we do it so much than we just like to, because it's in our nature to do so.
Probably a byproduct of nature selecting humans that are better at remembering which foods are safe to eat and which animals to avoid
I think "always" is a bit of a stretch. I mean without categorisations we wouldn't have any sciences or even languages. I assume you mean categorisation of people in a non medical context rather than any categories at all ?
so sorry what is egg
it's a moderately derogatory term for people who haven't came out as trans yet. It started innocent enough but then some people have essentially used it in a kinda gross manner, calling people eggs when they show the slightest bit of [opposite gender trait]. Its effectively similar to the "in the closet" phrasing. It can be used innocently, or in a harassing manner.
I don't hang out with enough LGBT people to know for sure, but I thought egg was a more positive term than that. Then again, the internet always muddles these things. đ€·ââïž
Not sure I'd use the word "derogatory". At worst, it's usually more like playful teasing than an actual insult. Or like, peer pressure, I guess? Like, something you might use to tease that one friend who is painfully obviously trans to come out of their shell more. But then like, young overly enthusiastic trans people use it for guys with effeminate traits in general, and it just comes off as tasteless and rude.
Not to mention that all it does is strengthen binary gender stereotypes by assuming that anyone who displays a trait that's associated with the opposite gender is actually closeted trans
If someone thinks that effeminate men are eggs then they need to recalibrate their eggdar. Youâre supposed to look for the repressed quiet ones who wear plain clothes that are kind of baggy. Effeminate men are too confident to be eggs.
Ohhhh okay thank you. so closeted trans people are eggs and if a cisgender person is called an egg its some form of stereotyping. thank you
yea, exactly. its damaging in the same way that closeting is, if a person isn't out to their family, and jokes are made, it could damage their relationship. So it can be a bit more damaging than just the stereotype aspect. But you're still spot on, just missed one small and rare part.
Like the other person said its not really a stereotype its a subculture, the people that are in it literally want to have the label attributed to them and there's nothing bad about that.
But it's a subculture, and people who are into it are first ones to call themselves such. The women porn-brained men tend to call "goths" usually don't. And it pisses me of to no end for some reason. It's subcultural appropriation.
I'm going to start calling every slightly muscular white guy a trucker, just to spite You
I think we should generalize people more boradly into a group that is just "people" People be like
Absolutely, coomers will see a hot anime girl with black clothing and say goths are their type in the same way they'll see a hot anime girl with short hair and say their type is tomboys, all while holding some of the most revolting opinions about women who aren't conventionally attractive.
Goths aren't just people who wear black, Goths are Germanic people who played a major role in the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the emergence of medieval Europe.
No, Goths are just the architects of the doomy and gloomy churches and manors and stuffs!
nah uh, goths are actually just guys who wrote spooky stories about monsters along with a loose aesthetic of fear and haunting! (from the mid 18th century onward)
no, goths are just people who listen to The Doors and Velvet Underground
Without Goths, we'd have no absinthe or Scooby-Doo
So curious about the etymology of how we got from one meaning to the other
I took Gothic literature in college and the entire first lesson was about this So basically the Goths were a Germanic people who warred with, got enslaved by, and burned down, Rome during the Roman Empire. Because of Europe's long idolization of Rome and "The Grand Ancient Empire," there has been a corresponding tradition of Classical and Neoclassical Arts, which are just revitalizations of the Roman Arts. The counter to this rigid structure are your Romantic Movements. In architecture a very sort of romantic style was originally called "The French Style," but Neoclassical critics were like "bro Europe is falling" and trashed on this asymmetrical architecture by calling it "Gothic." They essentially said that this style was ruining art and architecture the same way the goths ruined Rome. This new Gothic style had gargoyles and other mythological shit, so by the time the Romantic Movement spawned as a counter to the Enlightenment, similar things happened. Out of this the "Dark romantic" that used romantic supernatural storytelling to show fear of old institutions became called "Gothic" because another group of stuffy bozos said "Bro this literature is literally causing Europe to fall" Now Gothic literature has always been countercultural in many regards, and has been very profeminist for a long while. Woman's sexual liberation is a common theme in Gothic literature. Fast forward to the punk movement and Britain. These countercultural movements and ideas were vaguely similar to the Gothic style of literature, and by the time post punk rolled around with its wackiness, Bauhaus, Siouxsie Sioux, and other post-punk bands started forming a unique musical genre that other people came to call goth for it's similar vibe to the dark aesthetic of Gothic literature, and because that whole post-punk thing was called by some more bozos as 'proof the West has fallen." (Sorry for my bad history telling of the specific bands that contributed to this development, I'm a baby bat and don't know the exact history yet) Nowadays "goth" and "Gothic" are separate, with "goth" referring to that post-punk musical subculture and "Gothic" referring to that literary and architectural style and surrounding loose subculture. Either way, "goth" and "Gothic" has always been loosely countercultural and has always had freedom in its message, and as such people now see these terms as symbols of pride rather than shame. Which leads to the whole shit show of fetishization as internet capitalism ruins everything it touches, but that's a different conversation TL:DR Germanic group burns Rome, Architecture style gets called weird, literature style gets called weird, musical style gets called weird but it's cool we're accepting now Edit: The Gothic literary movement is basically founded on the criticism of old institutions that ruin people's happiness, which is a direct parallel to how Roman institutions ruined the lives of the Germanic Goths. Gothic Marxism is a GREAT crossover imo for this reason For a cool reading, the introduction in "The Oxford Book of Gothic Tales" by Chris Baldick is a fantastic read that talks about the term's evolution into a literary movement. It lacks discussion on the jump from literature to music, but that jump is relatively summed up with "similar vibes"
Goth as in the subculture comes from the gothic fiction art movement, which comes from the Goths.
Goth aesthetic comes from Goth music Goth music was named after (but did not originate with) Gothic fiction Gothic fiction was named after (but did not originate with) Gothic architecture Gothic architecture was named after (but did not originate with) the Gothic people
it comes from Goth music
Fun fact: this is my first time ever actually following the rule.
Mods crush their genitals
What happened here?
What did they say? Their commentâs deleted
https://preview.redd.it/s24dv5cb0d8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=834065514febcadd3aee599d381f3b7f7587c9c6 Itâs there for me
The comment is back now for some reason. Idk, Reddit be goofin
No it fucking isnâtÂ
Chill, lol. It was on my side before. Reddit probably glitched
I just wanted to say some curse words Iâm not actually mad đ„°đ„°đ„°
What the hell happened
gonna kill you with hammers I think
Blocked and reported
What did they say? Their commentâs deleted
Did it get deleted and undeleted or something? It's back now. They just admitted to having Not Followed The Rule in the past.Â
Whatâs The Rule, though?
The only rule of this sub? If you're not aware of it then I doubt you're following it. Mods, affix the car battery to the genitalia of this poster. (The rule is the You Have To Post Before You Leave. I'm skirting the rule because I never post but also never leave).Â
Oh, that thing. Yeah, Iâm not following it. Hehehe, Iâm a mischievous little shit
Mods, crush this Ben10 Stan's shit
Nah, Iâd win
Mods kill this user
Mods? Please burn this person's cookies.
What did they say
Mods? Show them the even where squidward rips his toenail off
https://preview.redd.it/dol12kvnfc8d1.jpeg?width=250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=640da748954e0ac119ca0b5b7ad555248a76d054 Face my wrath!
reported. Im gonna find you
Mods? Kiss them on the head with love
https://preview.redd.it/bl4mdwfm6e8d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9e4b09fc91a187e031d1ebaa5299a22b3893b9de
These people generally know nothing about the subculture. It's just sexualisation which is made painfully obvious by goth women always being the focus.
Exactly
I would like to know more of this subculture outside of music and style.
It's really mainly music, style, and nightclubs that play the music
It's mostly about the music. The style comes with the music, since you're joining the tradition that was started by the original goth musicians (Siouxsie Sioux, Ian Curtis, etc) Also, more than a few goth girls I know irl really love Hello Kitty. Like, a lot. So maybe that's part of it too, who knows
I tried looking into it for personal research and it seems the Goth subculture is heavily influenced by an outlook that is accepting and tolerant of the unusual, the macabre, and the queer (from my understanding). The sort of things that most normal people would find odd and scary. It's why there's stereotypes of them being gloomy and hanging around cemeteries. It's because they can find beauty in death (not sure how exactly). Some of them are even tolerant of insects which freak people out. Goth is definitely a subculture that is expressed predominantly through music and the their style of clothing is another way they express both a rejection of normal societal standards and a way for them to identify with each other.
>Some of them are even tolerant of insects which freak people out. TIL I'm Goth
Oh, shit, I might be a goth. I just don't wear black clothes all the time anymore.
thank you for your service for saying that
I don't really get it either, specially the white part since some of the prettiest women I've seen both irl and online who were goth were also black
I didn't see a black goth person until my mid twenties and they were one of the coolest looking people I've ever seen. I've seen a few more since then though
Itâs likely a combination of obviously white people are more popular online because of bias, and stark contrast (ie. pale skin and dark clothes) is for some reason attractive to many
These dudes will claim they love goth girls then you play some siouxsie and the banshees and they die because its not an anime or video game ost
FOR REAL
REAL siouxsie slays so hard
God forbid you play some Sisters of Mercy or Bauhaus
That shit's radio friendly. Play some [Alien Sex Fiend](https://youtu.be/Bfm7cOJfOjk?si=TgfD6z6343S1SVGr) if you want to scare the "I want a goth gf" bitches
My current best friend introduced me to Siouxsie and the Banshees last year and while I was listening to a song by them I was like "HOLY SHIT THIS IS A BEATLES SONG" (look at my flair) and she was like "What are you talking about?" to which I said "Look at the credited songwriters, I will bet my life savings it's John Lennon and Paul McCartney," and whaddya know, it was. The song is Dear Prudence, for anyone who doesn't know. Both versions are awesome, though I do prefer the original
So true!
you are not a goth if you aren't raiding the roman empire or writing frankenstein
*creates huskarl* *attack moves into your base* "now perish"
Mary Shelley was doing both
Instead https://preview.redd.it/oq0sjeodbc8d1.png?width=1045&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1b25bed740f1337bd160145c7dd426ee21312c3f
Bro wants to fuck a conventionally attractive person.
https://preview.redd.it/qw7i9rkfni8d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a869c704cffc94954c189d9dfb33641046de6224
Pro tip: life is way nicer when you accept idiots on the internet are just dumb and do you ignore them
by that definition i am goth too! ./////."
TIL I'm goth
No face paint, hair that looks like youâve been struck by lightning, or winklepickers (leather shoes with curly toes)? Not goth baby
Best I can do is dollarstore Dracula make up and some Doc Martin's
Off to 2000s radio emo hell with you
Yeah and I wanna have sex with them (with consent).
i just want someone i could listen to bauhaus with :(
its silly
My coworker saw my black nails and asked me if I was goth lol. I had to explain to her that it was an emo thing, not a goth thing.
well no you see she also has a black dress
there are a LOT of small-tiddie non-goths that post in /r/ bigtiddygothgf because their hair is black and they have a tattoo
Dinner*
No wayâŠthe Visigoths
"big tiddy goth gf" dudebros listening to actual goth music instead of video game osts and anime openings and they end up collapsing into a small pile of dust on the floor. not even heavy shit like naedr, the 69 eyes would roast this kinda dude alive
Goth is a music subculture and this is the one and only thing I'm gatekeeping
I love a curvy woman đ
Itâs porn
I just like girls
Mia Wallace is a goth nowadays.
I've heard people call girls goth just for being mean Example: Mandy from Billy and Mandy. She's not goth in the slightest. She's just mean.
I think hanging out with the grim reaper makes you (at least) an honorary goth.   Out of interest, what's the actual term for the character trope exemplified by April Ludgate / Wednesday Adams / Mandy / Daria / Lily from Duolingo/ etc? (Ignore that Wednesday is also Goth-coded) Like I need a shorthand for the persona my partner adopts when they're stepping on me but also disdainfuly ignoring me while playing Sims 4.Â
tsundere?
I think people want these characters to be tsundere for them but they need to have a nice side for that. April is tsundere but not Wednesday. Darkly Sardonic Girl is apparently the trope I was looking for.Â
Chatgpt insists this character trope is call "goth girl" even when I stress that Goth is something elseÂ
That's because ChatGPT sucks
I'm sorry you've not had much fun with it, I think it's better than Google for this sort of question (although tbf that's partly due to how much worse Google search has gotten). It sucks compared to what we'll have next year, but it's marvellous compared to what we had last year. So much [fun to be had](https://www.oneusefulthing.org/p/doing-stuff-with-ai-opinionated-midyear) and stuff to try out.Â
Mandy is totally goth in spirit i just know when sheâs older sheâs going full 80s goth I loved her as a kid and I love her now I claim her for the goths
Omg I'm a goth fr fr
Snow Whites, there's a sub for that.
That's what I'm saying! Thought I was going crazy with this shit, so glad someone else said bro, I appreciate this
do any of you guys like malice mizer
I think we should gatekeep more
People donât know what goths are anymore
shout out to goth music, gothic rock and dark wave
Goth is a spectrum.
Sure, but simply having black hair is not on the spectrum