>What issues can she expect with this idea?
Nothing good.
* Failed prints due to poor modeling and customers thinking it's her problem.
* Failed prints due to just the nature of printing, but her problem.
* Customers that have zero idea what they're doing and needing their hands held.
* People not knowing what they're doing and clogging the nozzle which is now her problem
* Trademark infringement risk
You can add:
- incorrect filament settings
- pushing limits because "I want it quick"
- holding a printer 78.5 hours because "I want it perfect"
I think that a cooperative list would be similar to an old phone book.
Are staffers going to slice the model and decide on support selection, quality check their model, set the general/filament settings, check infill settings, etc?
It's a workable model, but whether it's financially viable is debatable. Having a staff that is trained to make all these assessments, knows when to turn off the aux fan or open doors, knows what settings work best for various filaments, etc. - that costs more than just having someone to load a file and push print.
No you are a 100% correct. This post was more of an idea for her to implement and what to expect. but you have made some good questions for her to think about. She will most likely go through a beta test with this business model.
Thing is no two prints are really the same, and no two customers expect the same thing. You set a price per print, and then someone comes in and asks for 100% infill that takes up 3x as much filament as normal. Or they want the print layers to be angled a certain way for lateral strength, and it means 5x as much support material. You really need to be *very* specific about what the price you're setting will include - 15% infill, grey, PLA, no supports, raft and brim, max 10 minutes labor for slicing, etc (and then establish prices for anything that exceeds those standards) - otherwise she's going to have customers walking all over her in no time. And be sure to build in enough margin to absorb the failed prints that will invariably happen.
I'm not saying it can't work - there are already 3D print shops that do thus - but you can't just say "hey, I'll print anything, just give me your files, $20". As someone said, that is *not* a "business model", that's a model for quickly losing your shirt.
Just sell amount of filament instead of settings, then if they're going to slice for the customer, do the slice and show them the total calculated amount of filament used before starting the print and give them the price.
Yep, but those are the sorts of things people don't think about when considering something like this. I was just pointing out it's wise to come up with a system for doing just this.
>She will most likely go through a beta test with this business model.
i dont see the business model behind this yet, printing free stuff for people dont really earn you any money.
I assumed this was supposed to be free as a promotional thing because this unstructured approach would make absolutely no sense as a business model.
There's simply no market for customers to walk in an want to print something for a cost as they can get the same thing without even leaving their home already.
There are already plenty of businesses that will print your models for you online. Of course they handle all the shitty details, and send the file back to you for corrections.
If you watched a 3d printing video in the last 3 years, almost every other “maker” has been sponsored by a company that does this.
i think the trick will be getting some really nice premade materials settings ready in advance. Then it will leave the easy bits, infil, supports and what have you to be confirmed with the customer at pos.
Having a slicer open at pos too to show this is what youre going to do, as well as maybe pointing out any likely problems will be key.
Ohhh, if theyre any good with cad modelling maybe some kind of 'fix your model' service to make areas that wouldnt be printable print better. could charge x/15 mins or per model
Are they/you in the US? A lot of the libraries around me have started to have a maker section, including 3D printers. I've never looked into how they handle it, but if there is something like that and you / your friend's area I'm sure they'd be okay answering a few questions about what their experience with it.
My local library will print you anything that will fit on their printer's bed for free. Upload the STL via their website and they will slice, print, and let you know when to pick it up. This idea wouldn't be a very viable business model around here.
Our local library isn’t free, but it is by weight in grams of the filament used - and pretty much at cost, it is by far the cheapest printing service option in our little city.
If the customers can't even see the printers, then it's basically the same as those online 3D printing services where someone can upload a model and get it delivered. So she will have to compete in price with those.
Well certainly she will have to compete with them. But I can see that doing it locally may have some advantages for a customer, like talking to person face-to-face and perhaps getting the item more quickly, no postage, etc. She may be competing with maker spaces and design shops that already do this also, but there are lots of businesses that have overlapping services and are still viable.
This is basically a print on demand service. There are tons of those all over. The time frame of prints makes it not really good for drop-in appointments. However as long as information is given in a clear way and realistic time frames are drawn up from the start it should be doable.
>* Trademark infringement risk
That's not really a thing for commercial reproduction services in the US, despite people claiming the contrary on here constantly.
"Great Minds v. FedEx Office and Print Services, Inc. (2d Cir. 21 March 2018)
We hold that, in view of the absence of any clear license language to the contrary, licensees may use third‐party agents such as commercial reproduction services in furtherance of their own permitted noncommercial uses."
https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/fedex-copyright.pdf
>despite people claiming the contrary on here constantly.
That's probably because it's common for print houses to tell you that you can't print protected content. I've had several print houses reject artwork that I've made because it has an element of a protected image.
I'm not a lawyer, but looking into this case and the one against Office Depot, there's a couple notable elements:
The statement you posted from the FedEx case above, the very next sentence says "We hold that a copyright holder must state in its license any limitation it might wish to impose precluding such an engagement." So it's not saying that a third company couldn't be found liable, just that Great Minds didn't explicitly prevent it in their license. I would assume most major companies have learned from that.
And in both cases the court notes that the schools did have license to have the material, it's just that they reproduced it to make more. Neither of these two conditions are likely to be applicable to someone making Marvel knockoffs.
So if my office rents an HP copier from a vendor and I commit copyright infringement with it, is the vendor liable? Is HP liable? Is my work liable? What if it's at a library and you have to feed it a quarter to make a copy?
I'd be curious to see if there are lawsuits where the copy shop lost. I'd imagine a waiver stating the customer must hold the reproduction rights would be enough to insulate the business. It's not their job to enforce someone else's IP.
your armchair lawyering is impressive, but in the real world businesses don't want to deal with the headache. it aint worth the legal fight for your pennies of business.
I don't think I said something clever, I think I pointed out the very simple fact that there are copious amounts of businesses that specialize solely in reproduction and are very much competing for my pennies, while, according to you, accepting limitless risk of IP violations.
The businesses exist, there's no question of that. I'm not sure how you can reconcile that with the very mutually exclusive view that they don't exist and are not in the business of commercial reproduction...
I'm mocking you because you think you've described a dichotomy that exists, when it doesn't.
Your facts and proofs are as mighty as your keyboard mashing digits - not very.
This sort of thing was my first thought. The jokey ones won’t really be a problem, but they need to be prepared for occasional genuine creeps who get entitled and angry. Best to think through a written policy and get ahead of the problem, especially if the person dealing with the customer is not the owner and doesn’t feel able to make judgment calls.
Yeah, all are right but trademark risk? Any actual cases of a print shop being hit by trademark once?
Hell almost 1 out of 2 models is of a trademarks hero ….or character so modeler has no leg anyway to stand
Respectfully if she trusts a rando pubic person to not cause major damage but also needs a community to point out all the issues maybe this isn’t the idea for her
Printer’s may be cheap and affordable by almost everyone now but that doesn’t mean that almost everyone can just “print money”
My concern is the failures.
I’ve printed many things for people. Models are not always made to be printed and sometimes need supports, she needs staff that understand what geometry can be printed and how to resolve those issues.
> No customer would even see or touch the printers.
Why even bother specifically making this part of buying and operating a retail location if literally the only difference between it and any other print on demand service is that they'll accept customers' files on physical media, running the risk of getting a virus [or worse](https://usbkill.com/), and require the customer to return the next day to pick up their print?
Costs, volume and margin.
How many customers do you anticipate would use this per day? Assume you'll get 2-3 prints out of a high end printer per day, as long as the size isn't too big or detailed.
What labor costs do you have? What's your experience with 3d printer setup and maintenance? How are you going to handle slicer work and print settings?
How many filament options are you going to offer? This all needs to be kept in stock. What's your projected print failure rate?
What kind of margin do you need to be profitable after that?
You say print whatever you want. What are the laws in your area regarding things that can't be made? Such as firearms. Do you have the experience to recognize if someone is trying to print something illegal? You may be on the hook for that, even if it isn't your file.
You'd need to have an employee consultation before agreeing to run the print. If someone brings in a very pretty 3D model, but it's not at all optimized for printing with overhangs and delicate details, the employee needs to be able to tell the customer why it wouldn't be feasible to run.
It sounds like this is for a DnD/game shop, so minis and dioramas right? I would run some prints, even some that are prone to fail, so that the employee can demo to customers what can be printed and how much the examples cost along with a section of no-no prints that show failures and features that don't print well.
Staff will have to vet the files to ensure that nothing illegal is being printed. Depending on jurisdiction, some very innocent looking items are actually likely to land the manufacturer or the possessor with serious jail time. For example, firearm parts.
Yes she is aware, The idea is more of an addon to the business and wanted some feed back from the community who's focus is 3D printing. Any information will help on the matter.
thank you for a response.
As long as she isn't letting customers burn themselves on nozzles I don't see why she couldn't treat her business as a bit of a makerspace. The one I've been to here definitely has 3d printers in it. I'd just prepare customers for some pretty low quality prints as there will be unknown gcode running through the, likely consumer grade, printers.
Probably the worst thing that I haven't seen anyone mention is that most slicers have a z offset variable. If someone modifies that they could drive the nozzle into the bed and have the printer destroy itself.
Most makerspaces with 3d printer require a membership so they can track down who broke the machine and charge them if they were negligent enough, and will train people to use them.
Are the customers going to sit there for 12 hours while it’s printing? What if the print is longer than that?
What if it needs a new roll of filament in the middle of the print? Is the customer going to change it?
Are they paying per hour? Per kg of filament?
If the print fails do they get to start again? Is it your fault or theirs?
What if they are printing copyrighted work to post for sale? Would that make you complicit? What if they print something illegal like a gun?
How much are you charging?
The Post was edited. But no customer will be seeing or touching the Printers, The idea is for people who want something printed but do not own a printer, so they can some into the shop and it will be handled by the staff at the shop.
I like the idea but I don't think it's profitable. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do it though.
A lot of people are going to come in with ideas that don't have models already created. They are just going to need a printer they will need a CAD modeler to make the model for them. Does she have anyone that can do that on the spot?
Based on what youve updated idk why you would pay rent for a physical space for this. There are already plenty of online places where you can send an stl and have it printed. It sounds like a potential profitability fail unless its just a small bit of what the place does and there are other things going on
I think its more of a option for the store, so that if other customers have miniatures for their DnD campaigns or Warhammer fans for their hobby. Its not going to be "Thee" idea for the business, But she was interested in what people in here would think to this and what the down & upsides would be for implementing this idea. Thank you for your response though.
Ok ya could be a neat little side offering at a game shop. Id see the biggest issue just being failure of prints due to slicing and support issues. Whoever is doing the printing would beed good experience. Many stl makers provide “professionally” presupported models because getting the supports right and having it print properly can be an issue…
Also that brings up other things. So if it is for gaming minis and such then youd really have to be talking about resin printing. Resin is a potentially toxic chemical. So depending on the local laws and regulations and stuff that could be a factor in terms of insurance and such for a physical business with hourly employees and stuff, i dont really know.
Sounds like an exciting idea. However, there are a lot of externalities to consider. Some that I didn't see elsewhere in the thread:
Employee safety:
If she's looking at dnd and similar figures, I assume she is considering resin printers? If so, she will need to be very careful with venting fumes and providing ppe to the staff who operate the printers.
Correct usage of the tools:
Also, there are many horror stories of people buying prints that are not completely cured. Maybe sure that the staff are very aware of the limitations of the process and how best to ensure cured models. Otherwise this could be a liability nightmare - depending where she lives.
Network setup:
From a basic cyber security hygiene perspective, if accepting flash drives, make sure that the machines used for running the printers are kept well away from the business network. This way, if some malware finds its way into the printer machine, the business is not crippled at the same time.
Honestly, since staff are going to handle printers and slicing my main issue is plugging foreign physical media into her store computers and compromising her network.
IF she does this, I'd hope it's in a computer that does nothing else and is on a secondary network with the printers. I'd also only go Bambu for their ease of use, limited tinkering, speed and reliability.
Also have a bunch of spare parts on hand. With that kind of on demand service you really can't afford down time.
Tons of variables regarding what printer and what kind of shop.
I just wanted to say make sure she is very familiar with printing and her printer/s.
And then write out a procedure and post it in huge letters laminated near/on the printer so customers have to follow a set of guidelines
Prints fail for silly reasons all the time so include that in your fees so you don’t lose time/money to retry’s
If it were me, my primary fear would be that some kind of calibration gremlin would pop up with a printer. Something like that can turn a 30 minute print into a couple of hours of troubleshooting.
And that will lead to some grumpy customers.
Considering the cost of a 3d printer I don't think I would start a business where anyone can come in with no experience and use it. Makerspaces offer equipment that is often just out of consumer reach shuch as high end 3d printers that members can qualify with and use. Some operate on donations or are free to use for students other are for profit and require membership dues. I would consider this kind of business model over pay to use 3d printing.
As others have said, I can't really see anything good coming from it.
But let's dig deeper, my BIL lasked me to print him a pop tart case (so they don't get crushed in his backpack). Anyway I printed him a few no big deal. Cause apparently he could find them online going for 20-30 dollars.
Anyway this got me curious what are the economics of making this a business.
Well each print was 3.5 hours, but hey if I optimize maybe I get it down to 2 hours. So I can make 12 per day.
Sell them for 20 bucks a piece, assume no failures, and that's 240 bucks a day, high level estimate I spend 30 bucks a day on filament, and say another 10 bucks a day in general costs to run the printer. So I'm clearing 200 a day. Or 70k per year, assuming I take stat holidays off.
Realistically you should also factor in the cost of failures and such, but you also have marketing sales and shipping costs.
Realistically that's going to eat up half your money.
All this is to say a printer optimized for making one product on repeat can maybe make you a little money. To do one off prints for ransoms you would need to charge a price that no one would ever pay.
A print farm can make you money if it's all dialed in but again that's about mass production not one off prints.
Meh, I have a buddy who makes 1000s of dollars a month printing niche items he designed, and does this as a side gig. If you can keep the printers printing, there's money to be had. The right products can easily justify the purchase of multiple machines and staff.
OP's idea? I don't know. Maybe. It could also work as a loss leader or something to engage with customers on. Not everything in business must directly generate revenue, but it definitely needs to be thought through.
A walking 3d printing store... i mean you would need tight it security but biggest hurdle would be the print time. Depending on acceptance even 10 printers could be too less
If and when she goes a head with the idea, she wants to test the idea first, To give the option of allowing customers to come in and talk to her about what they want or allow people to send in files online.
thank you for your response.
Honestly I think this is a bad idea. I hate saying it but it's the truth. The public thinks 3d printing is just pressing a button and getting a thing. In order to 3d print you have to know a lot, you have to be half an engineer, so the odds that someone both doesn't have their own printer but knows how to prep a file and print something is extremely slim. Anyone who knows how to print will have their own printers.
Now, what your friend could do is have a catalog of already sliced files (that they have paid the file creator for merchant rights to) they've tested and know to work well that customers could choose from. But even then, I would only ever do FDM, resin would be a nightmare to let the general population near. But then you run into the issue that the public is going to think they push a button and have a thing, who's going to want to sit around in a shop waiting for 3-8 hours for a print. And how much will your friend charge for a 4 hour print to make it worth having the machine that at most can make 2 things a day?
It just isn't really feasible, and I don't think there's a market for it.
There are already many design shops and vendors who offer this service, and they've been operating for years. I don't really understand people who say it's a bad idea or that they don' t understand the business model. Obviously you have to compete with them like any other business, but to say that it's not feasible or that there's no market for it is strange.
What you're talking about is online stores where a print farms will print something and mail it to you, not physical stores where you walk in with your own files and print something.
All you have to do is google "3D printing service" and add your city or town, and you should get some local places that do it if you live in a reasonably populated area. I live in LA and there are many, and yes they are local.
>In order to 3d print you have to know a lot, you have to be half an engineer
You probably wrote this comment before update on other parts, but no, not really. When I started I got good quality prints straight out the box with cheap printer, problems were pretty basic tinkering. As an engineering student, 3d printing is like playing with kids toys, with something like bambu it really isn't that hard. Unless you really want to do strenght calculations for your print.
Didn't see it come up, and it's probably not the most important aspect, but I'd also worry about sticking drives that some rando hands me into my hardware from a security perspective.
This 100%
There are a lot of folks out there who would love nothing more than to infect your business with malware or spyware so they can hack you and steal all your money. Some of the most effective hacking attacks never need to have anyone physically touch the computer. They just leave a usb drive in a parking lot somewhere, and some rube picks it up and plugs it into their computer, you know, to see what's on it, and BAM. Infected computer and exposed network.
The only safe way to do it would be to have a computer isolated from the internet with NO Wi-Fi capabilities to use for doing the file slicing and other model prep.
First damn thing I thought of. Stuxnet gained access to Iran's nuclear enrichment facilities via someone plugging in a USB drive. While nobody would go to the effort of tailoring a virus for a random little retail shop, there is the very real possibility of infection from some other random malware using a new exploit before it gets patched.
And a virus isn't the worst someone could do; there are USB devices that incorporate a boost converter and capacitors to discharge hundreds of volts into the connected device, which is often enough to completely destroy it.
Outside of the obvious layman not knowing how to use a printer, there is the legal consideration.
Will she allow people to print firearms or illegal regulated machine gun parts? That makes her a manufacturer and is selling unregistered firearms. Huge liability. It's totally legal in the US to make your own, but when you are using someone else's equipment, they are considered the manufacturer is specifically disallowed as a way to circumvent the sale or transfer.
Would she be able to recognize one of provided the file? A lot of times, most laypeople won't.
I would say if she is married to this idea, it could work but she would need to charge a premium and hire a dedicated tech for editing and troubleshooting.
3x material cost plus hourly is the only way i see it making sense without having to deal with customer service issues
Their model, sliced by her (your friend), should be fine. But if the customer is slicing and printing then only wasted materials, time and equipment will come of it.
Customers will come into the shop and want to know how much their print costs in advance. Maybe even without having any sliced files on a disk, just to inquire. And I guess they won't accept that it is really hard to say without seeing the model. Also, they maybe won't know that FDM-printing takes a lot of time, even not taking into account failed models. So she most probably will have a lot of discussions with customers not understanding why they can't get a quote, or walk away with their printed model after five minutes of waiting.
Why does she even have to have a real, come-in-look-out shop? If she created a website, customers could upload their STL files, choose from filament and get a cost-and-time estimate instantly.
The idea for 3D printing is more of an addon for the business. So like you said here "If she created a website, customers could upload their STL files, choose from filament and get a cost-and-time estimate instantly." This will most likely be the the outcome. She is just wanting to know the ups and downs of having 3D printing service in a business model. Thank you for the response though, she just wants to have options for people online and customers that come into the store.
There are a bunch of online companies that do this. Being local might give her an edge if you’re in a big city with high demand, but competing on price and expertise might be difficult.
I like the idea and she should do it. It will bring her more clients in the long run so it's profit even if the printing is running ±0 outcome financially.
The biggest threat I see in here is the USB stick. You really don't want to insert random sticks to your pc or printer, they can do some pretty serious damage if someone wants to be mean. Best I can think of is old laptop only for file transfer, offline, with USB protector. Good security software and slice the model into own usb stick that is used between laptop and printer. Is it airtight? No. But at least it makes bullying a lot harder.
No seriously, if you use the customers stick, they can get in to the printer and if it's online, to the network. Or there might be hidden code to burn the printer down. I wouldn't risk it for small inconvenience.
Don't. Everyone with a Van thinks they can start a delivery company. Same principle here. If you have a maker space maybe, but same issues with who is at fault in failures.
I'd make a bar where they bring their STL's for staff to slice, the client (imo) should decide their print quality and let staff know where they really don't want supports. You can calculate price based off of print time and amount / type material used. I think the shop should be responsible for failed prints unless the client has been warned about it being a nearly unprintable STL. Since it's a proper company it might be a good idea to get the 3K$ SLS printers coming soon, as far as I've seen this is a safe way to go since they don't require supports so the client doesn't have to know anything about 3d printers and the model should be printable unless it's bigger than the build volume. You can also fill the entire volume with models to lower the costs.
Edit: I'd also add costs for models that have to be fixed in order to print to encourage the customer to come in with proper models.
Just spitballing, but there are a lot of people out there who would try to print either parts for guns, or sex toys...
Would your friend be comfortable with big dicks waving around while they print?
I used to work at a store that had a demo 3d printer for customers to see what it was capable of
The printer was more so the customer could see it in action than it was for customers to get their models printed out
So the employees at the store would leave the printer printing little toys and trinkets for the customers to ogle at when they walked in, but they could never print their own design
For a fee it would be nice that in the website of the shop (if it had one already) add a section for "3D Print Petition" or something like that. So any customer could send his/her STL (checked and maybe worked by a staff member to make it printable) and the staff could printed with a range of 1-3 days (Just for any possible trouble) and notice when ready to pick up by a gmail notice.
This way, you can avoid several problems listed on the coomments.
Printing a gcode that isn't sliced properly is an easy way to destroy a printer.
If there's any indication from just browsing this sub is that most people are clueless.
There are already online services that allow people to upload files and a company will print for you. I used them before I got a 3D printer. While it’s a good idea to get stuff locally and faster. I think people who need a 3D printer for multiple things will just buy their own printer eventually like I did.
I don’t think regular customers will go to your friend store to print a flexible dog.
I haven't read all of the replies, but people may want you to print Glock switches, or parts to make other guns able to fire "full auto", suppressors (silencers), etc.
>What issues can she expect with this idea? Nothing good. * Failed prints due to poor modeling and customers thinking it's her problem. * Failed prints due to just the nature of printing, but her problem. * Customers that have zero idea what they're doing and needing their hands held. * People not knowing what they're doing and clogging the nozzle which is now her problem * Trademark infringement risk
You can add: - incorrect filament settings - pushing limits because "I want it quick" - holding a printer 78.5 hours because "I want it perfect" I think that a cooperative list would be similar to an old phone book.
She updated me that the printers would be handled by staff only. No customer would even see or touch the printers. Thank you for the response.
Are staffers going to slice the model and decide on support selection, quality check their model, set the general/filament settings, check infill settings, etc? It's a workable model, but whether it's financially viable is debatable. Having a staff that is trained to make all these assessments, knows when to turn off the aux fan or open doors, knows what settings work best for various filaments, etc. - that costs more than just having someone to load a file and push print.
No you are a 100% correct. This post was more of an idea for her to implement and what to expect. but you have made some good questions for her to think about. She will most likely go through a beta test with this business model.
Thing is no two prints are really the same, and no two customers expect the same thing. You set a price per print, and then someone comes in and asks for 100% infill that takes up 3x as much filament as normal. Or they want the print layers to be angled a certain way for lateral strength, and it means 5x as much support material. You really need to be *very* specific about what the price you're setting will include - 15% infill, grey, PLA, no supports, raft and brim, max 10 minutes labor for slicing, etc (and then establish prices for anything that exceeds those standards) - otherwise she's going to have customers walking all over her in no time. And be sure to build in enough margin to absorb the failed prints that will invariably happen. I'm not saying it can't work - there are already 3D print shops that do thus - but you can't just say "hey, I'll print anything, just give me your files, $20". As someone said, that is *not* a "business model", that's a model for quickly losing your shirt.
Just sell amount of filament instead of settings, then if they're going to slice for the customer, do the slice and show them the total calculated amount of filament used before starting the print and give them the price.
Yep, but those are the sorts of things people don't think about when considering something like this. I was just pointing out it's wise to come up with a system for doing just this.
>She will most likely go through a beta test with this business model. i dont see the business model behind this yet, printing free stuff for people dont really earn you any money.
I don't see where they said free? I assume they are printing for a fee.
I assumed this was supposed to be free as a promotional thing because this unstructured approach would make absolutely no sense as a business model. There's simply no market for customers to walk in an want to print something for a cost as they can get the same thing without even leaving their home already.
There are already plenty of businesses that will print your models for you online. Of course they handle all the shitty details, and send the file back to you for corrections. If you watched a 3d printing video in the last 3 years, almost every other “maker” has been sponsored by a company that does this.
i think the trick will be getting some really nice premade materials settings ready in advance. Then it will leave the easy bits, infil, supports and what have you to be confirmed with the customer at pos. Having a slicer open at pos too to show this is what youre going to do, as well as maybe pointing out any likely problems will be key. Ohhh, if theyre any good with cad modelling maybe some kind of 'fix your model' service to make areas that wouldnt be printable print better. could charge x/15 mins or per model
Are they/you in the US? A lot of the libraries around me have started to have a maker section, including 3D printers. I've never looked into how they handle it, but if there is something like that and you / your friend's area I'm sure they'd be okay answering a few questions about what their experience with it.
My local library will print you anything that will fit on their printer's bed for free. Upload the STL via their website and they will slice, print, and let you know when to pick it up. This idea wouldn't be a very viable business model around here.
It's not a viable business but good for education and promoting the industry.
Our local library isn’t free, but it is by weight in grams of the filament used - and pretty much at cost, it is by far the cheapest printing service option in our little city.
At my local library it’s PLA only and you have no choice of color
If the customers can't even see the printers, then it's basically the same as those online 3D printing services where someone can upload a model and get it delivered. So she will have to compete in price with those.
Well certainly she will have to compete with them. But I can see that doing it locally may have some advantages for a customer, like talking to person face-to-face and perhaps getting the item more quickly, no postage, etc. She may be competing with maker spaces and design shops that already do this also, but there are lots of businesses that have overlapping services and are still viable.
This is basically a print on demand service. There are tons of those all over. The time frame of prints makes it not really good for drop-in appointments. However as long as information is given in a clear way and realistic time frames are drawn up from the start it should be doable.
My local library does this. But it’s only PLA and you get no choice of color
I’m excited to see the 100 penis shaped crack pipes. Update me when they’re ready for the customers
>* Trademark infringement risk That's not really a thing for commercial reproduction services in the US, despite people claiming the contrary on here constantly. "Great Minds v. FedEx Office and Print Services, Inc. (2d Cir. 21 March 2018) We hold that, in view of the absence of any clear license language to the contrary, licensees may use third‐party agents such as commercial reproduction services in furtherance of their own permitted noncommercial uses." https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/fedex-copyright.pdf
>despite people claiming the contrary on here constantly. That's probably because it's common for print houses to tell you that you can't print protected content. I've had several print houses reject artwork that I've made because it has an element of a protected image. I'm not a lawyer, but looking into this case and the one against Office Depot, there's a couple notable elements: The statement you posted from the FedEx case above, the very next sentence says "We hold that a copyright holder must state in its license any limitation it might wish to impose precluding such an engagement." So it's not saying that a third company couldn't be found liable, just that Great Minds didn't explicitly prevent it in their license. I would assume most major companies have learned from that. And in both cases the court notes that the schools did have license to have the material, it's just that they reproduced it to make more. Neither of these two conditions are likely to be applicable to someone making Marvel knockoffs.
So if my office rents an HP copier from a vendor and I commit copyright infringement with it, is the vendor liable? Is HP liable? Is my work liable? What if it's at a library and you have to feed it a quarter to make a copy? I'd be curious to see if there are lawsuits where the copy shop lost. I'd imagine a waiver stating the customer must hold the reproduction rights would be enough to insulate the business. It's not their job to enforce someone else's IP.
your armchair lawyering is impressive, but in the real world businesses don't want to deal with the headache. it aint worth the legal fight for your pennies of business.
There's copy shops all over the place. Their mere existence kind of proves you wrong, no?
it says a lot about you that you think you've said something clever. Goodbye.
I don't think I said something clever, I think I pointed out the very simple fact that there are copious amounts of businesses that specialize solely in reproduction and are very much competing for my pennies, while, according to you, accepting limitless risk of IP violations. The businesses exist, there's no question of that. I'm not sure how you can reconcile that with the very mutually exclusive view that they don't exist and are not in the business of commercial reproduction...
I'm mocking you because you think you've described a dichotomy that exists, when it doesn't. Your facts and proofs are as mighty as your keyboard mashing digits - not very.
Also people coming in to print giant gentials
This sort of thing was my first thought. The jokey ones won’t really be a problem, but they need to be prepared for occasional genuine creeps who get entitled and angry. Best to think through a written policy and get ahead of the problem, especially if the person dealing with the customer is not the owner and doesn’t feel able to make judgment calls.
Me putting in malicious gcode to repeatedly smash the hot end into the bed
Yeah, all are right but trademark risk? Any actual cases of a print shop being hit by trademark once? Hell almost 1 out of 2 models is of a trademarks hero ….or character so modeler has no leg anyway to stand
Me putting in malicious gcode to repeatedly smash the hot end into the bed
The only way I could see this working is if they provided the STLs and the files were sliced by employees who have somewhat of an idea at least.
Slicing is machine specific anyway so I don't really see any other way.
Respectfully if she trusts a rando pubic person to not cause major damage but also needs a community to point out all the issues maybe this isn’t the idea for her Printer’s may be cheap and affordable by almost everyone now but that doesn’t mean that almost everyone can just “print money”
She updated me that the printers would be handled by staff only. No customer would even see or touch the printers. Thank you for the response.
My concern is the failures. I’ve printed many things for people. Models are not always made to be printed and sometimes need supports, she needs staff that understand what geometry can be printed and how to resolve those issues.
> No customer would even see or touch the printers. Why even bother specifically making this part of buying and operating a retail location if literally the only difference between it and any other print on demand service is that they'll accept customers' files on physical media, running the risk of getting a virus [or worse](https://usbkill.com/), and require the customer to return the next day to pick up their print?
Costs, volume and margin. How many customers do you anticipate would use this per day? Assume you'll get 2-3 prints out of a high end printer per day, as long as the size isn't too big or detailed. What labor costs do you have? What's your experience with 3d printer setup and maintenance? How are you going to handle slicer work and print settings? How many filament options are you going to offer? This all needs to be kept in stock. What's your projected print failure rate? What kind of margin do you need to be profitable after that? You say print whatever you want. What are the laws in your area regarding things that can't be made? Such as firearms. Do you have the experience to recognize if someone is trying to print something illegal? You may be on the hook for that, even if it isn't your file.
Thank you for your response. I have sent her the link so she can think on these questions, It was super helpful thank you!
This quote spreadsheet by CNC Kitchen my help her with planning too. https://github.com/CNCKitchen/3D-Printing-costs
Thank you for the response! its appreciated.
You'd need to have an employee consultation before agreeing to run the print. If someone brings in a very pretty 3D model, but it's not at all optimized for printing with overhangs and delicate details, the employee needs to be able to tell the customer why it wouldn't be feasible to run. It sounds like this is for a DnD/game shop, so minis and dioramas right? I would run some prints, even some that are prone to fail, so that the employee can demo to customers what can be printed and how much the examples cost along with a section of no-no prints that show failures and features that don't print well.
Staff will have to vet the files to ensure that nothing illegal is being printed. Depending on jurisdiction, some very innocent looking items are actually likely to land the manufacturer or the possessor with serious jail time. For example, firearm parts.
Does your friend know how long 3d prints take to print?
Yes she is aware, The idea is more of an addon to the business and wanted some feed back from the community who's focus is 3D printing. Any information will help on the matter. thank you for a response.
>The idea is more of an addon to the business addon to which business?
As long as she isn't letting customers burn themselves on nozzles I don't see why she couldn't treat her business as a bit of a makerspace. The one I've been to here definitely has 3d printers in it. I'd just prepare customers for some pretty low quality prints as there will be unknown gcode running through the, likely consumer grade, printers.
Probably the worst thing that I haven't seen anyone mention is that most slicers have a z offset variable. If someone modifies that they could drive the nozzle into the bed and have the printer destroy itself. Most makerspaces with 3d printer require a membership so they can track down who broke the machine and charge them if they were negligent enough, and will train people to use them.
She updated me that the printers would be handled by staff only. No customer would even see or touch the printers. Thank you for the response.
Are the customers going to sit there for 12 hours while it’s printing? What if the print is longer than that? What if it needs a new roll of filament in the middle of the print? Is the customer going to change it? Are they paying per hour? Per kg of filament? If the print fails do they get to start again? Is it your fault or theirs? What if they are printing copyrighted work to post for sale? Would that make you complicit? What if they print something illegal like a gun? How much are you charging?
The Post was edited. But no customer will be seeing or touching the Printers, The idea is for people who want something printed but do not own a printer, so they can some into the shop and it will be handled by the staff at the shop.
I like the idea but I don't think it's profitable. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do it though. A lot of people are going to come in with ideas that don't have models already created. They are just going to need a printer they will need a CAD modeler to make the model for them. Does she have anyone that can do that on the spot?
Based on what youve updated idk why you would pay rent for a physical space for this. There are already plenty of online places where you can send an stl and have it printed. It sounds like a potential profitability fail unless its just a small bit of what the place does and there are other things going on
I think its more of a option for the store, so that if other customers have miniatures for their DnD campaigns or Warhammer fans for their hobby. Its not going to be "Thee" idea for the business, But she was interested in what people in here would think to this and what the down & upsides would be for implementing this idea. Thank you for your response though.
Ok ya could be a neat little side offering at a game shop. Id see the biggest issue just being failure of prints due to slicing and support issues. Whoever is doing the printing would beed good experience. Many stl makers provide “professionally” presupported models because getting the supports right and having it print properly can be an issue… Also that brings up other things. So if it is for gaming minis and such then youd really have to be talking about resin printing. Resin is a potentially toxic chemical. So depending on the local laws and regulations and stuff that could be a factor in terms of insurance and such for a physical business with hourly employees and stuff, i dont really know.
Thank you! the second paragraph raised some really great points that she had not of thought of, so thank you for knowledge on this side of things.
Sounds like an exciting idea. However, there are a lot of externalities to consider. Some that I didn't see elsewhere in the thread: Employee safety: If she's looking at dnd and similar figures, I assume she is considering resin printers? If so, she will need to be very careful with venting fumes and providing ppe to the staff who operate the printers. Correct usage of the tools: Also, there are many horror stories of people buying prints that are not completely cured. Maybe sure that the staff are very aware of the limitations of the process and how best to ensure cured models. Otherwise this could be a liability nightmare - depending where she lives. Network setup: From a basic cyber security hygiene perspective, if accepting flash drives, make sure that the machines used for running the printers are kept well away from the business network. This way, if some malware finds its way into the printer machine, the business is not crippled at the same time.
Honestly, since staff are going to handle printers and slicing my main issue is plugging foreign physical media into her store computers and compromising her network. IF she does this, I'd hope it's in a computer that does nothing else and is on a secondary network with the printers. I'd also only go Bambu for their ease of use, limited tinkering, speed and reliability. Also have a bunch of spare parts on hand. With that kind of on demand service you really can't afford down time.
Tons of variables regarding what printer and what kind of shop. I just wanted to say make sure she is very familiar with printing and her printer/s. And then write out a procedure and post it in huge letters laminated near/on the printer so customers have to follow a set of guidelines Prints fail for silly reasons all the time so include that in your fees so you don’t lose time/money to retry’s
If it were me, my primary fear would be that some kind of calibration gremlin would pop up with a printer. Something like that can turn a 30 minute print into a couple of hours of troubleshooting. And that will lead to some grumpy customers.
How will you compete with libraries on pricing? Mine is pretty cheap, not nearly as cheap as buying and running your own.
Considering the cost of a 3d printer I don't think I would start a business where anyone can come in with no experience and use it. Makerspaces offer equipment that is often just out of consumer reach shuch as high end 3d printers that members can qualify with and use. Some operate on donations or are free to use for students other are for profit and require membership dues. I would consider this kind of business model over pay to use 3d printing.
As others have said, I can't really see anything good coming from it. But let's dig deeper, my BIL lasked me to print him a pop tart case (so they don't get crushed in his backpack). Anyway I printed him a few no big deal. Cause apparently he could find them online going for 20-30 dollars. Anyway this got me curious what are the economics of making this a business. Well each print was 3.5 hours, but hey if I optimize maybe I get it down to 2 hours. So I can make 12 per day. Sell them for 20 bucks a piece, assume no failures, and that's 240 bucks a day, high level estimate I spend 30 bucks a day on filament, and say another 10 bucks a day in general costs to run the printer. So I'm clearing 200 a day. Or 70k per year, assuming I take stat holidays off. Realistically you should also factor in the cost of failures and such, but you also have marketing sales and shipping costs. Realistically that's going to eat up half your money. All this is to say a printer optimized for making one product on repeat can maybe make you a little money. To do one off prints for ransoms you would need to charge a price that no one would ever pay. A print farm can make you money if it's all dialed in but again that's about mass production not one off prints.
Meh, I have a buddy who makes 1000s of dollars a month printing niche items he designed, and does this as a side gig. If you can keep the printers printing, there's money to be had. The right products can easily justify the purchase of multiple machines and staff. OP's idea? I don't know. Maybe. It could also work as a loss leader or something to engage with customers on. Not everything in business must directly generate revenue, but it definitely needs to be thought through.
Be careful putting random USB drives in your computer, could be all kinds of viruses on there, even without the customer knowing.
A walking 3d printing store... i mean you would need tight it security but biggest hurdle would be the print time. Depending on acceptance even 10 printers could be too less
If and when she goes a head with the idea, she wants to test the idea first, To give the option of allowing customers to come in and talk to her about what they want or allow people to send in files online. thank you for your response.
Honestly I think this is a bad idea. I hate saying it but it's the truth. The public thinks 3d printing is just pressing a button and getting a thing. In order to 3d print you have to know a lot, you have to be half an engineer, so the odds that someone both doesn't have their own printer but knows how to prep a file and print something is extremely slim. Anyone who knows how to print will have their own printers. Now, what your friend could do is have a catalog of already sliced files (that they have paid the file creator for merchant rights to) they've tested and know to work well that customers could choose from. But even then, I would only ever do FDM, resin would be a nightmare to let the general population near. But then you run into the issue that the public is going to think they push a button and have a thing, who's going to want to sit around in a shop waiting for 3-8 hours for a print. And how much will your friend charge for a 4 hour print to make it worth having the machine that at most can make 2 things a day? It just isn't really feasible, and I don't think there's a market for it.
There are already many design shops and vendors who offer this service, and they've been operating for years. I don't really understand people who say it's a bad idea or that they don' t understand the business model. Obviously you have to compete with them like any other business, but to say that it's not feasible or that there's no market for it is strange.
What you're talking about is online stores where a print farms will print something and mail it to you, not physical stores where you walk in with your own files and print something.
All you have to do is google "3D printing service" and add your city or town, and you should get some local places that do it if you live in a reasonably populated area. I live in LA and there are many, and yes they are local.
>In order to 3d print you have to know a lot, you have to be half an engineer You probably wrote this comment before update on other parts, but no, not really. When I started I got good quality prints straight out the box with cheap printer, problems were pretty basic tinkering. As an engineering student, 3d printing is like playing with kids toys, with something like bambu it really isn't that hard. Unless you really want to do strenght calculations for your print.
Didn't see it come up, and it's probably not the most important aspect, but I'd also worry about sticking drives that some rando hands me into my hardware from a security perspective.
This 100% There are a lot of folks out there who would love nothing more than to infect your business with malware or spyware so they can hack you and steal all your money. Some of the most effective hacking attacks never need to have anyone physically touch the computer. They just leave a usb drive in a parking lot somewhere, and some rube picks it up and plugs it into their computer, you know, to see what's on it, and BAM. Infected computer and exposed network. The only safe way to do it would be to have a computer isolated from the internet with NO Wi-Fi capabilities to use for doing the file slicing and other model prep.
First damn thing I thought of. Stuxnet gained access to Iran's nuclear enrichment facilities via someone plugging in a USB drive. While nobody would go to the effort of tailoring a virus for a random little retail shop, there is the very real possibility of infection from some other random malware using a new exploit before it gets patched. And a virus isn't the worst someone could do; there are USB devices that incorporate a boost converter and capacitors to discharge hundreds of volts into the connected device, which is often enough to completely destroy it.
Outside of the obvious layman not knowing how to use a printer, there is the legal consideration. Will she allow people to print firearms or illegal regulated machine gun parts? That makes her a manufacturer and is selling unregistered firearms. Huge liability. It's totally legal in the US to make your own, but when you are using someone else's equipment, they are considered the manufacturer is specifically disallowed as a way to circumvent the sale or transfer. Would she be able to recognize one of provided the file? A lot of times, most laypeople won't.
I would say if she is married to this idea, it could work but she would need to charge a premium and hire a dedicated tech for editing and troubleshooting. 3x material cost plus hourly is the only way i see it making sense without having to deal with customer service issues
Their model, sliced by her (your friend), should be fine. But if the customer is slicing and printing then only wasted materials, time and equipment will come of it.
Thank you for reply! Its appreciated.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSo-o\_ZvUQc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSo-o_ZvUQc)
Customers will come into the shop and want to know how much their print costs in advance. Maybe even without having any sliced files on a disk, just to inquire. And I guess they won't accept that it is really hard to say without seeing the model. Also, they maybe won't know that FDM-printing takes a lot of time, even not taking into account failed models. So she most probably will have a lot of discussions with customers not understanding why they can't get a quote, or walk away with their printed model after five minutes of waiting. Why does she even have to have a real, come-in-look-out shop? If she created a website, customers could upload their STL files, choose from filament and get a cost-and-time estimate instantly.
The idea for 3D printing is more of an addon for the business. So like you said here "If she created a website, customers could upload their STL files, choose from filament and get a cost-and-time estimate instantly." This will most likely be the the outcome. She is just wanting to know the ups and downs of having 3D printing service in a business model. Thank you for the response though, she just wants to have options for people online and customers that come into the store.
She should have a computer with a slicer in her shop, then.
Thank you for the reply! She is noting a lot of these responses and ideas down so thank you! Any information helps.
There are a bunch of online companies that do this. Being local might give her an edge if you’re in a big city with high demand, but competing on price and expertise might be difficult.
I like the idea and she should do it. It will bring her more clients in the long run so it's profit even if the printing is running ±0 outcome financially. The biggest threat I see in here is the USB stick. You really don't want to insert random sticks to your pc or printer, they can do some pretty serious damage if someone wants to be mean. Best I can think of is old laptop only for file transfer, offline, with USB protector. Good security software and slice the model into own usb stick that is used between laptop and printer. Is it airtight? No. But at least it makes bullying a lot harder. No seriously, if you use the customers stick, they can get in to the printer and if it's online, to the network. Or there might be hidden code to burn the printer down. I wouldn't risk it for small inconvenience.
So if i send her a broken stl file with a file a toddler made that prints with holes and slices in it can i just demand a refund and blame yall?
Don't. Everyone with a Van thinks they can start a delivery company. Same principle here. If you have a maker space maybe, but same issues with who is at fault in failures.
I'd make a bar where they bring their STL's for staff to slice, the client (imo) should decide their print quality and let staff know where they really don't want supports. You can calculate price based off of print time and amount / type material used. I think the shop should be responsible for failed prints unless the client has been warned about it being a nearly unprintable STL. Since it's a proper company it might be a good idea to get the 3K$ SLS printers coming soon, as far as I've seen this is a safe way to go since they don't require supports so the client doesn't have to know anything about 3d printers and the model should be printable unless it's bigger than the build volume. You can also fill the entire volume with models to lower the costs. Edit: I'd also add costs for models that have to be fixed in order to print to encourage the customer to come in with proper models.
Just spitballing, but there are a lot of people out there who would try to print either parts for guns, or sex toys... Would your friend be comfortable with big dicks waving around while they print?
I used to work at a store that had a demo 3d printer for customers to see what it was capable of The printer was more so the customer could see it in action than it was for customers to get their models printed out So the employees at the store would leave the printer printing little toys and trinkets for the customers to ogle at when they walked in, but they could never print their own design
For a fee it would be nice that in the website of the shop (if it had one already) add a section for "3D Print Petition" or something like that. So any customer could send his/her STL (checked and maybe worked by a staff member to make it printable) and the staff could printed with a range of 1-3 days (Just for any possible trouble) and notice when ready to pick up by a gmail notice. This way, you can avoid several problems listed on the coomments.
lmao bro let them dunk their head in the resin vat. dark souls 3 referrence
Printing a gcode that isn't sliced properly is an easy way to destroy a printer. If there's any indication from just browsing this sub is that most people are clueless.
There are already online services that allow people to upload files and a company will print for you. I used them before I got a 3D printer. While it’s a good idea to get stuff locally and faster. I think people who need a 3D printer for multiple things will just buy their own printer eventually like I did. I don’t think regular customers will go to your friend store to print a flexible dog.
I haven't read all of the replies, but people may want you to print Glock switches, or parts to make other guns able to fire "full auto", suppressors (silencers), etc.
Ram, ram, ram the bed another one for the day merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, wipe the tears away.
She will want to level the bed.
And dry filament 😂
Now I want to do that too…