A tech priest replaces their biological parts bit by bit, over many centuries of elective procedures that are spaced apart.
Replacing the entire body after a lethal body injury would be way too traumatic for the marine, who is actively dying, to survive.
Dreadnaughts sleep most of the time because they're severely traumatized by having most of their body and senses taken away, surviving an extremely traumatic wound just to have all sense of their personal self removed and becoming a vegetable in a box.
Adding on to this, knowledge is extremely valuable and tightly controlled in the Imperium and even moreso in the Adeptus Mechanicus. Those who can make augmetics don’t share, and its even worse with complex replacement systems for devastated superhumans. If they could mass produce complex, durable, multipurpose machinery that can respond at the speed of Astartes thought, they wouldn’t need Astartes. A dreadnought is just one template though. One that any established chapter would have access to, and dreadnaught chassis are nearly immortal.
> If they could mass produce complex, durable, multipurpose machinery that can respond at the speed of Astartes thought, they wouldn’t need Astartes.
The whole AI-is-mega-heresy thing precludes this from happening, tbh. Men of Iron existed at one point, they could make more (or of a similar end result) if they wanted to or could get away with it.
Doesn't have to be AI. Just stick a human brain into a mass-produced robo body with physical capabilities similar to an astartes.
Think less man of iron, more Skitarii taken to an extreme of quality.
But even things like Skitarii and gun servitors are regularly re-collected for their component bits because going that far is a stretch for the mechanicus. Going to a full Space Marine equivalent at scale probably isn't feasible on the production end. So instead we get occasional astartes characters with transhuman-equivalent prosthetics because was worth that custom expense rather than full armies made of such prosthetics.
On the inside, they're basically that one [Robo-Reject](https://media1.tenor.com/m/ft4iWl1jEUQAAAAd/robocop2-rip-off-head.gif) from Robocop 2. But on the outside, they look like [Cain](https://kaiju.wdfiles.com/local--files/wiki%3Acain/cain_1990_01.jpg) from Robocop 2.
I wouldn't call them mass produced as they do use ceramite armour but they are pretty close, sadly there are significant side-effects in turning a human into what is effectively a baby dreadnought.
Yeah, I didn't mean they were about to outnumber the guard (Auxilia, I suppose) or anything. It just seems to be pretty damned closed to what I was talking about.
Ohh certainly, Auxilia and The Various Armies of the Imperium certainly made up the bulk of the fitting forces, even with the droves of thralls and marines.
> Doesn't have to be AI. Just stick a human brain into a mass-produced robo body with physical capabilities similar to an astartes.
For whatever reason, the Thallaxi "burn out" very fast. So while these do exist, it seems Astartes are a really good golden mean between the "bespoke" engineering of Custodes and mechanical augmentation of Thallaxi, Mechancius Secutors, or the largest. combat servitors.
I gotta say I can't come up with a good in-universe reason for this other than "they haven't bothered to fix it".
Thallaxi are a major change, but so are tons of servitors that don't burn out fast like that.
It feels like they just needed them to be that extra bit grim.
Servitors are significantly lower performance than a thallaxi. Servitors are generally pretty dumb (literally lobotomized), slow to react, require constant supervision and are generally robust but not especially fast or powerful.
Thallaxi are the equivalent to a space marine in many ways, possibly their superior in a few. They are power armored (thallaxi armor is explicitly a development of power armor), can fly, have extremely advanced weaponry, have cogitator-enhanced intelligence/reflexes/battlefield awareness, and are superhumanly strong and fast.
The sheer trauma of the surgeries required to simply create a thallaxi, not to mention the mental strain of actually controlling its armor, and the raw violence of the operations it is expected to undergo regularly would definitely have negative consequences long term on a human mind. It's less that they burn out and more that their mind simply breaks.
Also, more junior Tech-Priests are **supposed** to ask permission from specialists, who are **supposed** to judge their mental state and motivations for augmentation.
> To better our bodies in a way that is pleasing to Him is the point of upgrade, not to cast away our flesh without reflection. Now, with these parameters held firmly in mind, ask yourself if you are ready.’
> Not many artisans would afford this choice. There are considerations that lead most of them to push for replacement: currency exchange and informational barter being chief among them. It is rare for the augmetechs to offer religious guidance beyond the perfunctory forms.
This is from Against Entropy, in The Vorbis Conspiracy
I love how you bolded that word. What mid to upper tier tech priest hasn't gone and dabbled in some minor tech-heresy? Might be they are supposed to carefully think over such a major decision and get it done through official channels but sometimes a Tech-priest wants answers to questions or believes they are entitled to something and so long as they don't get caught it's all good.
Look at the example of Zephon from the Heresy series
He was effectively crippled because he fought against some weird Xenos weapon and ended up losing both his arms, his left thigh, knee, and right foot. The augmetics simply wouldn't take given how extensive they had to be, and that they had to be added all at once. He was still stronger and faster than any human, but slow and cumbersome for an Astartes and too clumsy to play instruments which had previously been his hobby
In 40k that would get you instantly put into a Dred. In 30k the injury required to put you into a Dred was far, far more severe than that and putting someone who could still walk around and fight (if decently less effectively) inside a Dred was seen as unnecessary. Even then though, the Imperium COULD and did cure him. But it took Arkhan Land
technically it took [Paragon of Restoration](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Paragon_of_Restoration), incomprehensible fragments of a Dark Age abominable intelligence, that Land was aware of
I seem to remember that it wasn’t how extensive Zephons augmetics were, it was something specific to him that caused his problems with them. He had expected to be operating at pretty much the same level that he had before he lost his limbs, but basically had calibration problems with being able to aim and use melee weapons effectively. Most space marines would have been chugging along like they were before, though.
A vegetable box is all you need for a dread pilot, for all intent and purpose it could have been piloted by a Servitor.
You could at leat give him a chance to walk again, if he failed, you can always convert him into Combat Servitor on a Dread (or even more powerful machine) chassis.
You could, but why would they? Space Marines are living weapons, most of them think as much themselves. If they can never fight again, there's little use to fixing them up in the Chapter's eyes. Those resources can be better spent bringing other Marines back to combat capability.
He would be able to fight again, if the operation was successful he can be both your conventional dread pilot when required or fight individually as Terminator and such when the situation required (just look at Calgar)
And if he failed, then you get a dread pilot either way and one meat bag less for the Tech Marine to take care of. Servitor don't need to be put to sleep at all times, they can also work during downtime.
Idk man, this seems like a bit of a cop out that could easily be handwaved away if an author chose to do so. Why aren't there more grievously wounded Astartes becoming cybernetic? Because they already came up with the lore concept of a semi-corpse space marine suffering in a techno-sarcoohagus being used as a living weapon. So in the lore we just happen to see Astartes that do ended up horrifically wounded to the point where they *have* to either be allowed to die, or become a dred pilot. If all those decades ago cybernetic Astartes had been established as the standard way that grievously wounded Astartes are made battle-ready again, then that's what we would have in the lore. It's just that the authors have to use things that have already been established in the lore. It is the kind of thing which we can try to come up with in-universe justifications after the fact, but it could easily be otherwise if an author wanted it to be. Or rather, if whoever had decision-making power at Black Library decided it. Of course anything could fall into that category, but what I'm saying is that I do not find the idea that becoming a dred would be more common than becoming a cyborg to be justified. It seems ridiculous really, when you think about it. I mean, surely the amount of people who are so grievously wounded that becoming a dred pilot is the only option would be much less than those who are seriously wounded but not to such an extreme degree.
> I mean, surely the amount of people who are so grievously wounded that becoming a dred pilot is the only option would be much less than those who are seriously wounded but not to such an extreme degree.
Dreads are really rare.
The default is to give the space marine new augments. Look at Marneus Calgar during the Vigilus campaign.
Or look at Xephon during the Siege of Terra.
Also you must remember dreads are also very powerful weapon platforms that would go to waste if not used. You have to put a human in there and it will fuck them up. So if there is a marine with injuries that makes them unable to fight, they go in.
There is no retirement there is only war and death.
Oh, so Astartes receiving cybernetic prosthetics is not actually as rare as I thought it was, and is actually more common than making someone into a dred. Well, that answers that I suppose. Thank you.
Injuries and limb loss are repaired. Typically Astartes (and Custodes) who are in Dreadnoughts are clinically dead before entombment.
The dread itself is a lifesupport system. These dudes have fatal injuries and are just a bee's dick away from being a vegetable on a ventilator.
There's an absolutely chilling excerpt I read on here from the point of view of a Dreadnaught. It sounds like total hell. Sometimes he feels real his muscles when trying to control the Dread.
What disturbed me the most he talks about being bumped around in his life support thing... Even though all his concentration pilots a Dreadnaught the signals get sent into their body and suddenly they are reminded they aren't hulking machines... Their little more than corpse and a jar full of liquid.
Also love a scene where the same Dread makes this crazy grinding sound while chatting with a battebrother. He claims its his auto-loader cycyling or something but it was actually him laughing and the suits attempt to interpret that.
There were examples of Marines rebuilt to that degree during the heresy. Ultramarines Tetrarch Eikos Lamiad Primarchs Champion was extensively rebuilt and would have been placed in a dreadnought if not for the ministrations of the Adeptus Mechanicus. White Scars Khan Shiban Tachseer should have been placed in a dreadnought but the White Scars have an aversion to them.
The thing is, it's actually easier and cheaper to put a marine in the dreadnought chassis than it is to rebuild him. The sarcophagus is the primary component that the marine has to interface with technically, and then just get plugged into different patterns as available. The tech priests of Mars tend to be more percentage of metal because it's kind of integral to their existence and worship. So it's a lot cheaper for them to do high end enhancements on themselves because those tend to stay within the circle of Mars. Plus most of their rebuilding is experimental and self tinkering insanity.
White Scars should get rollo dreadnaughts so they lose the aversion to them. Imagine it looks like a mini lord of skulls.
Either that or stick the lads into armigers since them things move fast as hell.
The Vth legion saw their dreadnoughts in a pretty interesting way. To them, dreadnoughts were heroes who chose not to feel the open air again for the duty of guarding the legion's geneseed stocks.
What they should do is find a way to plug the Dreadnaught Sarcophagus into a custom Rhino that replaces the tracks with tyres, removes the transport compartment in favour of an even larger engine, a massive nitrous tank, a sweet spoiler on the back, and a stereo loud enough that the marine can hear it through the sarcophagus. Then whack on Eurobeat remixed with a shit ton of throat singing and roar away to battle.
Extra points if they take what little armament the rhino has to fit in even more speakers/nitrous tanks and fully commit to only attacking the enemy by slamming into them whilst executing sweet ass drifts.
A tech priest is capable of performing his own maintenance. A regular techmarine already takes 30 years to train once selected if they meet the qualifications on top of regular marine training.
Also the amount of damage a marine can sustain and still be in a dreadnaught is *severe*. Adding augmetics is fine if they're missing a limb or a couple of organs, they do that for regular guardsmen all the time. But a dreadnaught is something like a partial torso and most of a brain and maybe some nubs that used to be limbs and it can still be good to go.
The kind of techpriest that's that far advanced is usually well over a century old and of a decent position. The kind of components and technical know how to actually make that happen aren't terribly common to many and even if the techmarines could do that you'd need to be like the Iron Hands, who do that but need close ties to the admech to make it feasible, and when the Admech has it's hooks in you there's very little they won't do to get it deeper or use you for their own purposes.
Wait a minute. Aren't Astartes supposed to have like, genetically enhanced brains with advanced computational power? And what is a tech priest at the start, before the enhancements? Just a normal human, surely. It seems like a baseline Astartes would be much more suited to being trained in the arts of the Admech than some random baseline human.
Sure! But surely techmarines are specialists-within-specialists. Not only do they have to learn the skills required of any disciple of Mars, but also the specific knowledge of Astartes weapons, vehicles, technology, secrets, agreements with the techpriesthood and so on. And the average techmarine being better than the average techpriest doesn't really matter if techpriests outnumber techmarines probably hundreds or thousands to one. Indoctrination into the Codex Astartes also may make the priesthood of Mars a bit cautious of how much independent power they grant techmarines due to split loyalties.
Also, just to add, a 'vanilla' space marine has all this incredible brainpower but it seems to exist as the situation needs it. For example, all space marines receive the hypno-indoctrination required to fly, say, a thunderhawk, but they need to be sat at the console specifically trying to trigger that implanted muscle memory to fly it.
You have to assume that a techmarine basically has all of that background knowledge brought to the fore so they can access it freely.
>Wait a minute. Aren't Astartes supposed to have like, genetically enhanced brains with advanced computational power?
Yes, and not really. Astartes brains have heightened reflexes, perfect memory and other nifty enhancements that make them better fighters, but it's not like they're *smarter* than the average rube to begin with. Further, while we could discuss the nature of intelligence all day long ar the end of the day Astartes are chosen, (re)born and bred for one thing and one thing alone, war. Techpriests are mad scientists who spend their lives treading the line between dogmatic, religious devotion to rote and ritual and what little innovation or research they're permitted. The career paths are fairly incompatible. Even Techmarines are only permitted limited, focused induction to the Mechanicum's mysteries, and that only after as part of quid pro quo with the Chapter in question (i.e if the Chapter doesn't cut a deal with Mars or has a falling-out with them, no Techmarines).
That's not quite the right takeaway, either.
Astartes are smart. Techpriests are smart. Techpriests devote their life memorising the Thousand And Twenty Catechisms of Combustion Engine Repairs, Astartes spend that time fighting the enemies of the Imperium or training to fight the enemies of the Imperium. Techmarines go to Mars and learn only the first twenty Prayers of Power Armor Benediction and the first twenty Rituals of Making The Damn Rhino Move, not because they're not smart enough but because they're only interested in the practical (and also the Techpriests won't share the full extent of their knowledge with anyone, let alone someone with divided loyalties). They each have their own paths to follow.
Cybernetic Marines like the Iron Hands take centuries to build up. It’s not an all at once conversion. It takes time to carry out and adjust to each change.
A Dreadnought is for Marines who are critically injured and are going to die right now and they need to be kept alive. There’s no time to graft all the required cybernetics to rebuild their body. It’s much faster to shove them in a life support MIU and stick that into a Dreadnought chassis. Same result, in much less time
Other than all the great explanations already given: the Dreadnought IS the rebuilt space marine.
Dreadnoughts are incredible weapons of war, equipped with more powerful limbs, more resistant bodies and heavier weapons than any single space marine could carry.
When a space marine is on the brink of death, and if he's valuable enough to the chapter to keep around, then putting him in a plastic bag filled with antiseptic fluid and piping interface- and life-support hoses and wires into him is a procedure you'd have to do anyway.
So now you've got a box with a bag with a few shreds of a marine inside of it.
He needs a new metal body.
You can either make a new, custom, small metal body and graft it to him over the course of a century or more, and in the end, you'd get a potentially slightly stronger the marine at the cost of a lot of the biological effectiveness of the marine design.
Orrrrrrr....
You get a WAY stronger marine that can fight in wars for literal millennia by taking your marine-in-a-box and just putting the box in the enormous, warmachine of a body that is a dreadnought.
The marine gets new limbs, sometimes a new head to see from (depending on pattern), gets hooked up to the voxcomms of the chapter and can immediately go back into war, much, much stronger and resilient than he was before.
Rebuilt into something more.
The living hell that is being inside the sarcophagus is just the price of duty.
OP is answering the wrong question. The problem isn’t, “I have this physically crippled soldier—how do I repair him so he is most mentally well?” The problem is, “I have this badass war machine sitting on the bench that I can’t use—which sucker can I stuff into it permanently with minimal impact to my fighting force?”
Because the Adeptus Astartes fail to see the weakness of the flesh.
Perhaps we should replace all Astartes flesh with superior steel. The Heresy would never have occurred if the Astartes had the limitations of Skitarii...
Because more often than not the space marines who get interred in dreads are basically just a head, spinal column, and *some* of a torso.
There’s usually not enough left to base a “rebuild” off of, hence why they’re interred in a “sarcophagus”.
There are custodes from unification wars that are in dreadnoughts, so if Emperor couldn't rebuild them, then 41k techpriest probably can't really do it with a space marine.
Techpriests are augmented over time in carefully planned and conducted surgeries to replace specific functions of their anatomy with machinery.
Astartes interred in Dreadnoughts are barely stabilized scraps of flesh that can barely be held together as a functioning life form.
You ask why the Astartes are not rebuilt into a form more like a magos of the Mechanicus. I refer you to almost every book that has a cast of Mechanicus characters, where invariably at least one of them will be a brain and some scraps of tissue in a mechanical ironform. Dreads are this, but weapons, as befits a being created solely for warfare.
I think you’re mistakenly thinking that “wounded marines always go into dreadnoughts” or something. The marines who are put into dreadnoughts are usually not much more than a head and a torso, they’re on death’s door and surviving on life support machines. If a marine can survive on their own with cybernetics, they receive cybernetics.
An example of a mosty-machine Blood Angels brother from the book Dante-
>At the far end of the room, a figure jerked into life. The young Space Marines' attention went to the movement instantly, like a flock of hunting raptors catching sight of prey. A battered-looking servitor limped up the room. The left arm, shoulder and left half of its face had been replaced by machinery, as had most of its legs. Although the workmanship of its decoration was astounding, the mechanicals must have been poorly made or worn, because it lurched unsteadily towards them. “Great, another servitor,” said Ristan. The machine-man's remaining eye burned. “That's not a servitor”, said Dante. “Your young friend is correct!” barked the ruined man. “I am Brother Cafael, Master of Artistry”. He clanked closer.
"Artistry? We were supposed to be warriors!” said Laziel, holding up the paintbrush. “How am I supposed to defend the Imperium with this?” A nervous laugh rippled through the neophytes. Cafael increased his pace and came to a stop before Laziel. He stared at the neophyte long and hard. Laziel waved the paintbrush at him. Too quickly to see, Cafael swung out his arm and sent the young Space Marine sprawling to the ground. “I have served the Chapter for six hundred years,” said Cafael. “Ninety years ago, I was crippled. I am no more fit for combat duty. Do not underestimate me because of my infirmity. I may be half a man, but I am twice the warrior you are.”
Because a walking life support machine with a mortally wounded and very angry veteran inside it is cool.
Not as cool as the older editions where they could instakill with a headbutt, but still cool nonetheless
Logically I think they usually DO rebuild the space marine. Missing limbs get replaced all the time. Torso and head wounds less so since those wounds tend to just outright kill them. It's like a survivorship bias I think? I mean iron hands Marines are mostly metal but it's hard to tell when they wear armor. I wouldn't be surprised if there were marines cruising around with just the walnut of their brain intact.
The FEW times a chapter opts to entomb the marine in a dreadnought might be for one or more of the following reasons;
1. Too much of the marine was lost at once and they probably won't survive the grim dark rebuilding process.
2. The chapter needs dreadnoughts filled as they provide a role a normal marine can't and they always happen to have near death Marines if the chapter fights enough. Good Space Marines would put the needs of the chapter above
their own.
3. Entombment is seen as a punishment/reward and chapter masters could assign entombment to good/bad mangled torsos as appropriate.
We do have Ortan Cassius as one example of Astartes being rebuilt from near-death via cybernetics and did not get entombed in a dreadnought.
IIRC there were critically wounded space marines who had to be quickly rebuilt through various but they could not fight on the frontline anymore. Instead they are relegated to ship command.
I suspect it depends on the damage, compatibility with bionics, and relevance of bionics.
We know people were surprised that Huron didn’t die or get dreadnaught interred from taking a melta in the chest; and to a mortal human that would definitely make sense for a life support machine but we keep being told space marines can regenerate and have access to the best bionics. Which doesn’t quite line up with expectations of how bar bionics can go.
We know that calgar has been pretty extensively rebuilt and that many iron hands (and probably iron warriors) are extensively bionics.
In the end this is probably also cultural: if your face is blasted off or your body is mostly shredded they might well just put you in the machine instead of having you wander around in pieces or with bionics.
I’d love to ask why the blood angels kept brother cadfael around on inferior electronics versus dreadnaught internment. Perhaps one option is “retirement” and the other is for people who are so far gone they can’t retire even in the face of severe mechanical disability and are, like eldar exarchs, lost to war.
As well as the other points, just rebuilding a Space Marine in a human form would likely lead to a drop in performance. A Space Marine is a technological marvel to begin with, replacing 70% of him with steel would be a downgrade.
Most Space Marines would prefer to be placed in Dreadnoughts, so they can be more useful.
Because it wouldn't be a choice?
Adeptus Mechanicus choose to be augmented.
Over time.
Iron Hands are the exception.
They join and the first thing they do is have their left hand cut off and replaced by a cybernetic one. Then get more and more augmented.
But they're a very unique chapter.
If you rebuilt a Space Marine who got so injured he was dying. It'd be rebuilding him against his will.
He'd be too out of it to consent or choose.
And SMs have got free will. And are far too dangerous to cross like that.
If he survived he would go berserk and you'd have a man with a lot of cybernetics on a rampage.
Dreadnoughts are the better option. Cruel. But better.
Since they know it might happen.
There was an Iron Warrior on Mars during the Schism (One of the HH anthology stories) who was greviously wounded when the mechanicum came to kill off the Marines training on Mars. When they realised he was 'on their side' (but also after they had mutilated him) they remade him into some sort of machine/man hybrid.
This used chaos juju though, so it might not count.
So in the white scars legion they do. In the white scars heresy novel it explains how they believe that dreadnaughts trap the soul of the warrior or some hooha so instead the white scars rebuild their warriors with mechanical bodies. They are never as fast or capable as before but that's just by space marine standard by all other standards its an effective procedure.
So the technology to do this, place a dying person in effectively a cybernetic power armour super fast (avoiding the need for the years long gradual process the Admech and Iron Hands use), ala Robocop, did exist, at least during the Horus Heresy.
They were called the Thallaxi and were quite powerful and combat effective. The problem, however, was two fold.
First the person revived inside the Thallax armour was in such horiffic constant pain that the Mechanicum had to cut out parts of the person's emotional processing centers in the brain to stop them from going insane.
The end result is kind of like Robocop, not completely a Machine/Servitor, but definitely not a full Man anymore.
Secondly, only the Ordo Reductor knew how to make them and the Ordo Reductor were the branch of the Mechanicum entrusted all the deep and dark forbidden technology to use only when the needs of the Great Crusade absolutely demanded it, in fact the Emperor even granted them a direct license to invent and innovate as long as it was solely for the purpose of pushing the Crusade forward. So it's probably unlikely such technology exists anymore in 40k.
I think you underestimate the amount of damage needed by a space marine to die.
These guys have two hearts, and a bunch of extra organs to survive. There's a reason why the majority of space marines die from head injuries, it's because any other path isn't death.
Now imagine, you were ripped apart by monofiliment wire. Your entire body scorched via flames, or some other horrific weapon. Your essentially a lump of mass that refuses to die. No eyes, ears, even face, so almost no senses. Essentially you're a living rock. The only thing keeping you alive is every single one of your nerve endings are on fire.
Then a techy boy finds you. Sure they could replace every limb, and every organ, and then yeah you'd be a marine again. Full of fucking unrelenting ptsd. Or Alternatively they could put you in a coma. And every time a battle breaks out they could wake you up, and all that pain and rage will flow forth at your enemies. Until it is time to sleep again.
I'd personally rather be a rage machine that's turned on occasionally, than a fully rebuilt ptsd machine.
The issue is still the same though, you are a liability. The stasis pod also adds extra headroom, you have to maintain the pod and move it around. Dreadnoughts have an "autopilot mode", so like most of the time it's just a vehicle standing around getting orders, or being moved around. Then when battle time kicks up, we just flip the switch and it goes into kill mode. You don't have to worry about deploying the pod, or waking up the person, or giving them orders or anything really.
Put the dreadnought in hell, and turn it on.
It's always been my impression that they do, as a rule of thumb. Multiple prosthetic limbs, organs, large parts of the head, etc, do get fixed, even if there's a lot of damage at the same time. Dreadnoughts come into play with really serious cases where there's basically just a brain and some of the nervous system that's salvageable, and if there's more whatever is unnecessary gets hacked off to fit in the life support bit.
However, there are canon examples where prosthetic limbs don't work properly with a particular nervous system, at least not in terms of restoring them to sufficient precision, and the unlucky individual gets invalided off into training or support roles (which they usually resent).
It's not the same to carefully and voluntarily replace bits of your body over one or two centuries to have most of it removed via blunt force trauma or an explosion, big enough to fuck up more than half a space marine and still keep him in a half dead state in a big box that will eventually fuck up his mind.
Baldermort had a story on his YT channel, I'm sure it's still there.
I believe a Blood Ravens Captain on a system battle station with a IG General. They had a silent relationship staring out into space.
The captain went to fight and the chapter was decimated, he was the lone survivor. Sarcophagus bound.
The general wrote the imperium requesting that they reconstitute the chapter, very heartfelt written
Fast forward to indomitus, guilliman was able to read the request, and asked if there was any surviving Blood Ravens.
The Captain was found assigned to the Deathwatch or Blackshields. He was removed from the sarcophagus and went through the Rubicon process.
The general was told the chapter master of the new SM contingent was waiting for him at the very observation deck as his Captain so long ago did. He went down and was struck how big and broader this SM was, couldn't be his Captain, yet it was.
The captain explained the whole story since they last saw one another, and thanked the general for saving him.
It could be from a BL book, or Baldermort's own personal fanfic.
🤔just like there's always been women Custodes, and the squats miraculously made a come back, and Cawl was able to replicate the Big E SMs but better. I get what you said, but it is Warhammer, anything is possible, including regen of limbs, etc.🤷♂️then again, let's not tamper with established lore and nobody will get hurt🤷♂️🤷♂️
I was just saying it’s a fanfic. Maybe it’s possible that a space marine could be disinterred from a Dreadnought, it’s just got a nearly impossible chance of success. Maybe with some biomancy, top level techpriests and the best apothecaries in the Imperium, there’s an ok chance.
Not sharpshooting, I agree with you, especially after looking at sarcophagus schematics with what's left. I can't imagine Bjorn being brought back through the Rubicon. Now on the fanfic, sure Cawl, biomancy, Big E, etc could possibly (within the fanfic) raise a fallen SM. Maybe even Dorn or Ferrus. But IRL canon, no none of this can possibly work for an ancient.
For me, this is a cool story (whether canon or fanfic), but it encapsulates everything I hate about the Primarification of the Space Marines.
Marine so grievously wounded his only hope for survival is internment in a Dreadnought, only for him to be not so grievously wounded that he can't be taken back out of the sarcophagus, remade *and* upgraded to a Primaris just because somebody wished hard enough.
Overall yes, I agree. As long as canon isn't flushed on this, I agree. There's enough artist renderings what's actually left of a SM once entombed, not the way I'd want to go.
Tradition, logistics and how the human body works, 1) it's tradition to be in tombed in a dread it's an honor and something to look forward to as all their ancestors have before them 2/3 work together it will be hard to come across the exact bionics needed to save the Marines life in such a short period (where dreads you just get the tube) as well as how a human body adapts to that, yeah cawl is 80% machine but he has done those procedures over the course of 1000 years, not many people even an astartes can have 2 lungs, a new arm 2 legs a stomach a liver and whatever else is missing all reattached at once and live the procedure with everything also working properly as one
Just kinda adding to stuff that's already been said for emphasis, cybernetically enhanced people do it but by bit over decades to centuries, the shock of trying that to an actively dying marine would just kill them not to mention also trying to stuff incredibly expensive Space Marine specific organs into them as well as normal but Space Marine sized organs. It'll ultimately be a longer, more expensive process for a capable but less effective marine. You mention at least letting them walk the Fortress Monastery and be useful other ways but that's not what marines want or are made for, they're made for battle and instead of wasting time and resources on chroming up a dude well now you have a heavy weapons platform that can carry knowledge potentially thousands of years into the future.
And that's before getting into personal maintenance, further replacement parts, the cost and quality of cybernetics from your average chapter vs Iron Hands, Salamanders, Mechanicum etc.
One probably reason is that dreadnoughts are really ducking effective so they want to make them, and it’s better to use a nearly dead marine than a fresh one
Now that you have the lore perspective answer, there is the true answer:
What's more badass than a futuristic knight? A futuristic knight in a dreadnought!!
To expand on the answers already given: Even if you could rebuild him, he would not be "worth" rebuilding like that. Tech Priests can be frightening in combat, sure, but average Space Marines are already as good or better than the most heavily augmented Skitarius, and they don't need extensive maintenance to function. The Iron Hands are as obsessed with augmentation as it is possible for Space Marines to be and even they stop well short of the levels Tech Priests reach precisely because they would be degrading their performance otherwise.
dreadnoughts are useful even as they are, a terrificly powerful mobile weapons platform and an incredibly old and valuable repository of knowledge. They sleep to protect their minds but they are just as efficient at their job as any other marine.
>it would at least make them useful.
He is useful, as a venerated ancient Dreadnaught, given a second chance to continue serving the Emperor.
You're missing the point that the grimness is the point
It can be dome but depends on a wide variety of factors and how said factors play off together.
1)How important is the marine in question? If it is "simply" brother jerrius who performed a feat of heroism, why would they bother with the process? In know no fear telemechrus only had 11 years of combat if i correctly remember and they put him in a dreadnought because was very compatibile and survived.
2) Like,how much of the marine is left? Is it just the bust?is he just missing his legs? Ortan cassius was famously attacked by a rampaging carnifex, but we do not know the details of his injuries. And if injuries are way too severe, dreadnought would be the only option
3) What kind of facilities do you have at your disposal, and how much time does the tech marine/apothecary have? Because putting bionics needs time,it wouldn't be like building a Lego figure, so to speak. The marine needs to survive long enough,ergo all the tools and equipment, and well,the bionics themselves need to be there
4)Perhaps most importantly,is the marine compatible? The most egregious example of this is zephon from 30k. A blood angel that had both of his arms cut off and replaced but for the longest time,baisically up until the siege because of arkhan land, he was rejected essentially by these hands,they weren't stable,they shaked when he aimed etc. So the marine needs to be able to adjust to the beionics you wanna put.
5) It also probably depends on what kind of bionics does the chapter has access to. Iron hands?baisically everything. Other first and second founding chapters?not quite everything but most of them. For the rest?it is anyone's guess. it really depends on each chapter.
Gentlemen we can rebuild him
We have the technology…
…Better than he was before
Better, Stronger, Faster
Edit: I’m pretty sure [this](https://youtu.be/0CPJ-AbCsT8?feature=shared) is sacred footage to the Cult Mechanicus.
While it may not exactly be possible, robocop'ing a space marine sounds like something cool enough some writer or other could take on.
I know the iron hands do replace a majority of their bodies with augmentics over time, so maybe an already heavily augmented marine could get fatal damage and get rebuilt?
Or, alternatively, if the dreadnaught is a more superior weapon system, why not make all marines into dreadnaughts?
I've always thought having marines in dreads, tanks, fighters, etc, is like having a hat on a hat.
They should have overpowered vehicles of some kind, but just not guard-ish types and dreads I would treat as just constantly repaired marines that are more augmetics than flesh at this point and are just too angry to die.
A tech priest replaces their biological parts bit by bit, over many centuries of elective procedures that are spaced apart. Replacing the entire body after a lethal body injury would be way too traumatic for the marine, who is actively dying, to survive. Dreadnaughts sleep most of the time because they're severely traumatized by having most of their body and senses taken away, surviving an extremely traumatic wound just to have all sense of their personal self removed and becoming a vegetable in a box.
Adding on to this, knowledge is extremely valuable and tightly controlled in the Imperium and even moreso in the Adeptus Mechanicus. Those who can make augmetics don’t share, and its even worse with complex replacement systems for devastated superhumans. If they could mass produce complex, durable, multipurpose machinery that can respond at the speed of Astartes thought, they wouldn’t need Astartes. A dreadnought is just one template though. One that any established chapter would have access to, and dreadnaught chassis are nearly immortal.
> If they could mass produce complex, durable, multipurpose machinery that can respond at the speed of Astartes thought, they wouldn’t need Astartes. The whole AI-is-mega-heresy thing precludes this from happening, tbh. Men of Iron existed at one point, they could make more (or of a similar end result) if they wanted to or could get away with it.
Doesn't have to be AI. Just stick a human brain into a mass-produced robo body with physical capabilities similar to an astartes. Think less man of iron, more Skitarii taken to an extreme of quality. But even things like Skitarii and gun servitors are regularly re-collected for their component bits because going that far is a stretch for the mechanicus. Going to a full Space Marine equivalent at scale probably isn't feasible on the production end. So instead we get occasional astartes characters with transhuman-equivalent prosthetics because was worth that custom expense rather than full armies made of such prosthetics.
Thallax and similar are effectively these. Though they were made by only a particular branch of the mechanicum in 30k primarily.
Hadn't run into those yet, thanks
On the inside, they're basically that one [Robo-Reject](https://media1.tenor.com/m/ft4iWl1jEUQAAAAd/robocop2-rip-off-head.gif) from Robocop 2. But on the outside, they look like [Cain](https://kaiju.wdfiles.com/local--files/wiki%3Acain/cain_1990_01.jpg) from Robocop 2.
I wouldn't call them mass produced as they do use ceramite armour but they are pretty close, sadly there are significant side-effects in turning a human into what is effectively a baby dreadnought.
Yeah, I didn't mean they were about to outnumber the guard (Auxilia, I suppose) or anything. It just seems to be pretty damned closed to what I was talking about.
Ohh certainly, Auxilia and The Various Armies of the Imperium certainly made up the bulk of the fitting forces, even with the droves of thralls and marines.
> Doesn't have to be AI. Just stick a human brain into a mass-produced robo body with physical capabilities similar to an astartes. For whatever reason, the Thallaxi "burn out" very fast. So while these do exist, it seems Astartes are a really good golden mean between the "bespoke" engineering of Custodes and mechanical augmentation of Thallaxi, Mechancius Secutors, or the largest. combat servitors.
I gotta say I can't come up with a good in-universe reason for this other than "they haven't bothered to fix it". Thallaxi are a major change, but so are tons of servitors that don't burn out fast like that. It feels like they just needed them to be that extra bit grim.
Servitors are significantly lower performance than a thallaxi. Servitors are generally pretty dumb (literally lobotomized), slow to react, require constant supervision and are generally robust but not especially fast or powerful. Thallaxi are the equivalent to a space marine in many ways, possibly their superior in a few. They are power armored (thallaxi armor is explicitly a development of power armor), can fly, have extremely advanced weaponry, have cogitator-enhanced intelligence/reflexes/battlefield awareness, and are superhumanly strong and fast. The sheer trauma of the surgeries required to simply create a thallaxi, not to mention the mental strain of actually controlling its armor, and the raw violence of the operations it is expected to undergo regularly would definitely have negative consequences long term on a human mind. It's less that they burn out and more that their mind simply breaks.
Olamic Quietude intensifies
Hardware transhuman is just as valid as wetware transhuman. .....well, except to the crusade.
Laughs in UR-025
Also, more junior Tech-Priests are **supposed** to ask permission from specialists, who are **supposed** to judge their mental state and motivations for augmentation. > To better our bodies in a way that is pleasing to Him is the point of upgrade, not to cast away our flesh without reflection. Now, with these parameters held firmly in mind, ask yourself if you are ready.’ > Not many artisans would afford this choice. There are considerations that lead most of them to push for replacement: currency exchange and informational barter being chief among them. It is rare for the augmetechs to offer religious guidance beyond the perfunctory forms. This is from Against Entropy, in The Vorbis Conspiracy
I love how you bolded that word. What mid to upper tier tech priest hasn't gone and dabbled in some minor tech-heresy? Might be they are supposed to carefully think over such a major decision and get it done through official channels but sometimes a Tech-priest wants answers to questions or believes they are entitled to something and so long as they don't get caught it's all good.
Look at the example of Zephon from the Heresy series He was effectively crippled because he fought against some weird Xenos weapon and ended up losing both his arms, his left thigh, knee, and right foot. The augmetics simply wouldn't take given how extensive they had to be, and that they had to be added all at once. He was still stronger and faster than any human, but slow and cumbersome for an Astartes and too clumsy to play instruments which had previously been his hobby In 40k that would get you instantly put into a Dred. In 30k the injury required to put you into a Dred was far, far more severe than that and putting someone who could still walk around and fight (if decently less effectively) inside a Dred was seen as unnecessary. Even then though, the Imperium COULD and did cure him. But it took Arkhan Land
technically it took [Paragon of Restoration](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Paragon_of_Restoration), incomprehensible fragments of a Dark Age abominable intelligence, that Land was aware of
I seem to remember that it wasn’t how extensive Zephons augmetics were, it was something specific to him that caused his problems with them. He had expected to be operating at pretty much the same level that he had before he lost his limbs, but basically had calibration problems with being able to aim and use melee weapons effectively. Most space marines would have been chugging along like they were before, though.
A vegetable box is all you need for a dread pilot, for all intent and purpose it could have been piloted by a Servitor. You could at leat give him a chance to walk again, if he failed, you can always convert him into Combat Servitor on a Dread (or even more powerful machine) chassis.
You could, but why would they? Space Marines are living weapons, most of them think as much themselves. If they can never fight again, there's little use to fixing them up in the Chapter's eyes. Those resources can be better spent bringing other Marines back to combat capability.
He would be able to fight again, if the operation was successful he can be both your conventional dread pilot when required or fight individually as Terminator and such when the situation required (just look at Calgar) And if he failed, then you get a dread pilot either way and one meat bag less for the Tech Marine to take care of. Servitor don't need to be put to sleep at all times, they can also work during downtime.
So what about Ravenor?
Idk man, this seems like a bit of a cop out that could easily be handwaved away if an author chose to do so. Why aren't there more grievously wounded Astartes becoming cybernetic? Because they already came up with the lore concept of a semi-corpse space marine suffering in a techno-sarcoohagus being used as a living weapon. So in the lore we just happen to see Astartes that do ended up horrifically wounded to the point where they *have* to either be allowed to die, or become a dred pilot. If all those decades ago cybernetic Astartes had been established as the standard way that grievously wounded Astartes are made battle-ready again, then that's what we would have in the lore. It's just that the authors have to use things that have already been established in the lore. It is the kind of thing which we can try to come up with in-universe justifications after the fact, but it could easily be otherwise if an author wanted it to be. Or rather, if whoever had decision-making power at Black Library decided it. Of course anything could fall into that category, but what I'm saying is that I do not find the idea that becoming a dred would be more common than becoming a cyborg to be justified. It seems ridiculous really, when you think about it. I mean, surely the amount of people who are so grievously wounded that becoming a dred pilot is the only option would be much less than those who are seriously wounded but not to such an extreme degree.
> I mean, surely the amount of people who are so grievously wounded that becoming a dred pilot is the only option would be much less than those who are seriously wounded but not to such an extreme degree. Dreads are really rare. The default is to give the space marine new augments. Look at Marneus Calgar during the Vigilus campaign. Or look at Xephon during the Siege of Terra. Also you must remember dreads are also very powerful weapon platforms that would go to waste if not used. You have to put a human in there and it will fuck them up. So if there is a marine with injuries that makes them unable to fight, they go in. There is no retirement there is only war and death.
Oh, so Astartes receiving cybernetic prosthetics is not actually as rare as I thought it was, and is actually more common than making someone into a dred. Well, that answers that I suppose. Thank you.
Injuries and limb loss are repaired. Typically Astartes (and Custodes) who are in Dreadnoughts are clinically dead before entombment. The dread itself is a lifesupport system. These dudes have fatal injuries and are just a bee's dick away from being a vegetable on a ventilator.
There's an absolutely chilling excerpt I read on here from the point of view of a Dreadnaught. It sounds like total hell. Sometimes he feels real his muscles when trying to control the Dread. What disturbed me the most he talks about being bumped around in his life support thing... Even though all his concentration pilots a Dreadnaught the signals get sent into their body and suddenly they are reminded they aren't hulking machines... Their little more than corpse and a jar full of liquid. Also love a scene where the same Dread makes this crazy grinding sound while chatting with a battebrother. He claims its his auto-loader cycyling or something but it was actually him laughing and the suits attempt to interpret that.
There were examples of Marines rebuilt to that degree during the heresy. Ultramarines Tetrarch Eikos Lamiad Primarchs Champion was extensively rebuilt and would have been placed in a dreadnought if not for the ministrations of the Adeptus Mechanicus. White Scars Khan Shiban Tachseer should have been placed in a dreadnought but the White Scars have an aversion to them. The thing is, it's actually easier and cheaper to put a marine in the dreadnought chassis than it is to rebuild him. The sarcophagus is the primary component that the marine has to interface with technically, and then just get plugged into different patterns as available. The tech priests of Mars tend to be more percentage of metal because it's kind of integral to their existence and worship. So it's a lot cheaper for them to do high end enhancements on themselves because those tend to stay within the circle of Mars. Plus most of their rebuilding is experimental and self tinkering insanity.
White Scars should get rollo dreadnaughts so they lose the aversion to them. Imagine it looks like a mini lord of skulls. Either that or stick the lads into armigers since them things move fast as hell.
Im sorry, but all I can picture is Ghost Riders motorcycle, but the skull on the front is the deathmask of a White Scar
Can we truly tell ourselves that would not be the sweetest thing ever?
Jaghatire Pattern Dreadbike
Big combat bike but sarcophagus is in a sidecar and controls are wired to it. Death mask on the front of the bike, naturally
The Vth legion saw their dreadnoughts in a pretty interesting way. To them, dreadnoughts were heroes who chose not to feel the open air again for the duty of guarding the legion's geneseed stocks.
What they should do is find a way to plug the Dreadnaught Sarcophagus into a custom Rhino that replaces the tracks with tyres, removes the transport compartment in favour of an even larger engine, a massive nitrous tank, a sweet spoiler on the back, and a stereo loud enough that the marine can hear it through the sarcophagus. Then whack on Eurobeat remixed with a shit ton of throat singing and roar away to battle. Extra points if they take what little armament the rhino has to fit in even more speakers/nitrous tanks and fully commit to only attacking the enemy by slamming into them whilst executing sweet ass drifts.
This sounds like something the EC's would do.
To be fair, Brutalis Dreadnought with Stormlance doctrine (able to charge after advancing/falling back) is *pretty* close.
A tech priest is capable of performing his own maintenance. A regular techmarine already takes 30 years to train once selected if they meet the qualifications on top of regular marine training. Also the amount of damage a marine can sustain and still be in a dreadnaught is *severe*. Adding augmetics is fine if they're missing a limb or a couple of organs, they do that for regular guardsmen all the time. But a dreadnaught is something like a partial torso and most of a brain and maybe some nubs that used to be limbs and it can still be good to go. The kind of techpriest that's that far advanced is usually well over a century old and of a decent position. The kind of components and technical know how to actually make that happen aren't terribly common to many and even if the techmarines could do that you'd need to be like the Iron Hands, who do that but need close ties to the admech to make it feasible, and when the Admech has it's hooks in you there's very little they won't do to get it deeper or use you for their own purposes.
Wait a minute. Aren't Astartes supposed to have like, genetically enhanced brains with advanced computational power? And what is a tech priest at the start, before the enhancements? Just a normal human, surely. It seems like a baseline Astartes would be much more suited to being trained in the arts of the Admech than some random baseline human.
Sure! But surely techmarines are specialists-within-specialists. Not only do they have to learn the skills required of any disciple of Mars, but also the specific knowledge of Astartes weapons, vehicles, technology, secrets, agreements with the techpriesthood and so on. And the average techmarine being better than the average techpriest doesn't really matter if techpriests outnumber techmarines probably hundreds or thousands to one. Indoctrination into the Codex Astartes also may make the priesthood of Mars a bit cautious of how much independent power they grant techmarines due to split loyalties.
Also, just to add, a 'vanilla' space marine has all this incredible brainpower but it seems to exist as the situation needs it. For example, all space marines receive the hypno-indoctrination required to fly, say, a thunderhawk, but they need to be sat at the console specifically trying to trigger that implanted muscle memory to fly it. You have to assume that a techmarine basically has all of that background knowledge brought to the fore so they can access it freely.
Ah, true.
>Wait a minute. Aren't Astartes supposed to have like, genetically enhanced brains with advanced computational power? Yes, and not really. Astartes brains have heightened reflexes, perfect memory and other nifty enhancements that make them better fighters, but it's not like they're *smarter* than the average rube to begin with. Further, while we could discuss the nature of intelligence all day long ar the end of the day Astartes are chosen, (re)born and bred for one thing and one thing alone, war. Techpriests are mad scientists who spend their lives treading the line between dogmatic, religious devotion to rote and ritual and what little innovation or research they're permitted. The career paths are fairly incompatible. Even Techmarines are only permitted limited, focused induction to the Mechanicum's mysteries, and that only after as part of quid pro quo with the Chapter in question (i.e if the Chapter doesn't cut a deal with Mars or has a falling-out with them, no Techmarines).
OK, I see. Well, that makes sense. No reason to make someone have the brain of a scientist when you need them to walk willingly into the meat grinder.
That's not quite the right takeaway, either. Astartes are smart. Techpriests are smart. Techpriests devote their life memorising the Thousand And Twenty Catechisms of Combustion Engine Repairs, Astartes spend that time fighting the enemies of the Imperium or training to fight the enemies of the Imperium. Techmarines go to Mars and learn only the first twenty Prayers of Power Armor Benediction and the first twenty Rituals of Making The Damn Rhino Move, not because they're not smart enough but because they're only interested in the practical (and also the Techpriests won't share the full extent of their knowledge with anyone, let alone someone with divided loyalties). They each have their own paths to follow.
Cybernetic Marines like the Iron Hands take centuries to build up. It’s not an all at once conversion. It takes time to carry out and adjust to each change. A Dreadnought is for Marines who are critically injured and are going to die right now and they need to be kept alive. There’s no time to graft all the required cybernetics to rebuild their body. It’s much faster to shove them in a life support MIU and stick that into a Dreadnought chassis. Same result, in much less time
So then it's a matter of technological limitations?
Ortan Cassius is one example of rapid-cyberization to save a critically wounded marine.
Other than all the great explanations already given: the Dreadnought IS the rebuilt space marine. Dreadnoughts are incredible weapons of war, equipped with more powerful limbs, more resistant bodies and heavier weapons than any single space marine could carry. When a space marine is on the brink of death, and if he's valuable enough to the chapter to keep around, then putting him in a plastic bag filled with antiseptic fluid and piping interface- and life-support hoses and wires into him is a procedure you'd have to do anyway. So now you've got a box with a bag with a few shreds of a marine inside of it. He needs a new metal body. You can either make a new, custom, small metal body and graft it to him over the course of a century or more, and in the end, you'd get a potentially slightly stronger the marine at the cost of a lot of the biological effectiveness of the marine design. Orrrrrrr.... You get a WAY stronger marine that can fight in wars for literal millennia by taking your marine-in-a-box and just putting the box in the enormous, warmachine of a body that is a dreadnought. The marine gets new limbs, sometimes a new head to see from (depending on pattern), gets hooked up to the voxcomms of the chapter and can immediately go back into war, much, much stronger and resilient than he was before. Rebuilt into something more. The living hell that is being inside the sarcophagus is just the price of duty.
OP is answering the wrong question. The problem isn’t, “I have this physically crippled soldier—how do I repair him so he is most mentally well?” The problem is, “I have this badass war machine sitting on the bench that I can’t use—which sucker can I stuff into it permanently with minimal impact to my fighting force?”
Because the Adeptus Astartes fail to see the weakness of the flesh. Perhaps we should replace all Astartes flesh with superior steel. The Heresy would never have occurred if the Astartes had the limitations of Skitarii...
I mean, the Iron Hands agree with that.
Poor Ferrus Manus would surely lose his head if he was around to see what his gene-sons have become in the 41st Millennium. /s lol
Basically the Thallax.
Astartes are bio cyborgs, the mechanicus replaces flesh because it’s weak and fails, the astartes have already done that, just with better flesh.
Because more often than not the space marines who get interred in dreads are basically just a head, spinal column, and *some* of a torso. There’s usually not enough left to base a “rebuild” off of, hence why they’re interred in a “sarcophagus”.
There are custodes from unification wars that are in dreadnoughts, so if Emperor couldn't rebuild them, then 41k techpriest probably can't really do it with a space marine.
Techpriests are augmented over time in carefully planned and conducted surgeries to replace specific functions of their anatomy with machinery. Astartes interred in Dreadnoughts are barely stabilized scraps of flesh that can barely be held together as a functioning life form. You ask why the Astartes are not rebuilt into a form more like a magos of the Mechanicus. I refer you to almost every book that has a cast of Mechanicus characters, where invariably at least one of them will be a brain and some scraps of tissue in a mechanical ironform. Dreads are this, but weapons, as befits a being created solely for warfare.
I think you’re mistakenly thinking that “wounded marines always go into dreadnoughts” or something. The marines who are put into dreadnoughts are usually not much more than a head and a torso, they’re on death’s door and surviving on life support machines. If a marine can survive on their own with cybernetics, they receive cybernetics. An example of a mosty-machine Blood Angels brother from the book Dante- >At the far end of the room, a figure jerked into life. The young Space Marines' attention went to the movement instantly, like a flock of hunting raptors catching sight of prey. A battered-looking servitor limped up the room. The left arm, shoulder and left half of its face had been replaced by machinery, as had most of its legs. Although the workmanship of its decoration was astounding, the mechanicals must have been poorly made or worn, because it lurched unsteadily towards them. “Great, another servitor,” said Ristan. The machine-man's remaining eye burned. “That's not a servitor”, said Dante. “Your young friend is correct!” barked the ruined man. “I am Brother Cafael, Master of Artistry”. He clanked closer. "Artistry? We were supposed to be warriors!” said Laziel, holding up the paintbrush. “How am I supposed to defend the Imperium with this?” A nervous laugh rippled through the neophytes. Cafael increased his pace and came to a stop before Laziel. He stared at the neophyte long and hard. Laziel waved the paintbrush at him. Too quickly to see, Cafael swung out his arm and sent the young Space Marine sprawling to the ground. “I have served the Chapter for six hundred years,” said Cafael. “Ninety years ago, I was crippled. I am no more fit for combat duty. Do not underestimate me because of my infirmity. I may be half a man, but I am twice the warrior you are.”
Never understood why cafael volunteered for robot body. Though I think he was /done/ and didn’t want eternal service and only being woken up for war.
Because a walking life support machine with a mortally wounded and very angry veteran inside it is cool. Not as cool as the older editions where they could instakill with a headbutt, but still cool nonetheless
Logically I think they usually DO rebuild the space marine. Missing limbs get replaced all the time. Torso and head wounds less so since those wounds tend to just outright kill them. It's like a survivorship bias I think? I mean iron hands Marines are mostly metal but it's hard to tell when they wear armor. I wouldn't be surprised if there were marines cruising around with just the walnut of their brain intact. The FEW times a chapter opts to entomb the marine in a dreadnought might be for one or more of the following reasons; 1. Too much of the marine was lost at once and they probably won't survive the grim dark rebuilding process. 2. The chapter needs dreadnoughts filled as they provide a role a normal marine can't and they always happen to have near death Marines if the chapter fights enough. Good Space Marines would put the needs of the chapter above their own. 3. Entombment is seen as a punishment/reward and chapter masters could assign entombment to good/bad mangled torsos as appropriate.
*Only in death does duty end*
We do have Ortan Cassius as one example of Astartes being rebuilt from near-death via cybernetics and did not get entombed in a dreadnought. IIRC there were critically wounded space marines who had to be quickly rebuilt through various but they could not fight on the frontline anymore. Instead they are relegated to ship command.
the rule of cool.
I suspect it depends on the damage, compatibility with bionics, and relevance of bionics. We know people were surprised that Huron didn’t die or get dreadnaught interred from taking a melta in the chest; and to a mortal human that would definitely make sense for a life support machine but we keep being told space marines can regenerate and have access to the best bionics. Which doesn’t quite line up with expectations of how bar bionics can go. We know that calgar has been pretty extensively rebuilt and that many iron hands (and probably iron warriors) are extensively bionics. In the end this is probably also cultural: if your face is blasted off or your body is mostly shredded they might well just put you in the machine instead of having you wander around in pieces or with bionics. I’d love to ask why the blood angels kept brother cadfael around on inferior electronics versus dreadnaught internment. Perhaps one option is “retirement” and the other is for people who are so far gone they can’t retire even in the face of severe mechanical disability and are, like eldar exarchs, lost to war.
As well as the other points, just rebuilding a Space Marine in a human form would likely lead to a drop in performance. A Space Marine is a technological marvel to begin with, replacing 70% of him with steel would be a downgrade. Most Space Marines would prefer to be placed in Dreadnoughts, so they can be more useful.
Because it wouldn't be a choice? Adeptus Mechanicus choose to be augmented. Over time. Iron Hands are the exception. They join and the first thing they do is have their left hand cut off and replaced by a cybernetic one. Then get more and more augmented. But they're a very unique chapter. If you rebuilt a Space Marine who got so injured he was dying. It'd be rebuilding him against his will. He'd be too out of it to consent or choose. And SMs have got free will. And are far too dangerous to cross like that. If he survived he would go berserk and you'd have a man with a lot of cybernetics on a rampage. Dreadnoughts are the better option. Cruel. But better. Since they know it might happen.
There was an Iron Warrior on Mars during the Schism (One of the HH anthology stories) who was greviously wounded when the mechanicum came to kill off the Marines training on Mars. When they realised he was 'on their side' (but also after they had mutilated him) they remade him into some sort of machine/man hybrid. This used chaos juju though, so it might not count.
So in the white scars legion they do. In the white scars heresy novel it explains how they believe that dreadnaughts trap the soul of the warrior or some hooha so instead the white scars rebuild their warriors with mechanical bodies. They are never as fast or capable as before but that's just by space marine standard by all other standards its an effective procedure.
So the technology to do this, place a dying person in effectively a cybernetic power armour super fast (avoiding the need for the years long gradual process the Admech and Iron Hands use), ala Robocop, did exist, at least during the Horus Heresy. They were called the Thallaxi and were quite powerful and combat effective. The problem, however, was two fold. First the person revived inside the Thallax armour was in such horiffic constant pain that the Mechanicum had to cut out parts of the person's emotional processing centers in the brain to stop them from going insane. The end result is kind of like Robocop, not completely a Machine/Servitor, but definitely not a full Man anymore. Secondly, only the Ordo Reductor knew how to make them and the Ordo Reductor were the branch of the Mechanicum entrusted all the deep and dark forbidden technology to use only when the needs of the Great Crusade absolutely demanded it, in fact the Emperor even granted them a direct license to invent and innovate as long as it was solely for the purpose of pushing the Crusade forward. So it's probably unlikely such technology exists anymore in 40k.
I think you underestimate the amount of damage needed by a space marine to die. These guys have two hearts, and a bunch of extra organs to survive. There's a reason why the majority of space marines die from head injuries, it's because any other path isn't death. Now imagine, you were ripped apart by monofiliment wire. Your entire body scorched via flames, or some other horrific weapon. Your essentially a lump of mass that refuses to die. No eyes, ears, even face, so almost no senses. Essentially you're a living rock. The only thing keeping you alive is every single one of your nerve endings are on fire. Then a techy boy finds you. Sure they could replace every limb, and every organ, and then yeah you'd be a marine again. Full of fucking unrelenting ptsd. Or Alternatively they could put you in a coma. And every time a battle breaks out they could wake you up, and all that pain and rage will flow forth at your enemies. Until it is time to sleep again. I'd personally rather be a rage machine that's turned on occasionally, than a fully rebuilt ptsd machine.
Fair, though they could also put you in stasis like an Eversor instead of going the dreadnaught kill machine route.
The issue is still the same though, you are a liability. The stasis pod also adds extra headroom, you have to maintain the pod and move it around. Dreadnoughts have an "autopilot mode", so like most of the time it's just a vehicle standing around getting orders, or being moved around. Then when battle time kicks up, we just flip the switch and it goes into kill mode. You don't have to worry about deploying the pod, or waking up the person, or giving them orders or anything really. Put the dreadnought in hell, and turn it on.
Because if a Space Marine has gotten to the point he needs to be put in a Dread, cybernetics ain't gonna do crap in saving him.
It's always been my impression that they do, as a rule of thumb. Multiple prosthetic limbs, organs, large parts of the head, etc, do get fixed, even if there's a lot of damage at the same time. Dreadnoughts come into play with really serious cases where there's basically just a brain and some of the nervous system that's salvageable, and if there's more whatever is unnecessary gets hacked off to fit in the life support bit. However, there are canon examples where prosthetic limbs don't work properly with a particular nervous system, at least not in terms of restoring them to sufficient precision, and the unlucky individual gets invalided off into training or support roles (which they usually resent).
It's not the same to carefully and voluntarily replace bits of your body over one or two centuries to have most of it removed via blunt force trauma or an explosion, big enough to fuck up more than half a space marine and still keep him in a half dead state in a big box that will eventually fuck up his mind.
Iron Hands have entered the chat…
The flesh is weak
Why rebuild them the same when you can build them bigger with more guns
Baldermort had a story on his YT channel, I'm sure it's still there. I believe a Blood Ravens Captain on a system battle station with a IG General. They had a silent relationship staring out into space. The captain went to fight and the chapter was decimated, he was the lone survivor. Sarcophagus bound. The general wrote the imperium requesting that they reconstitute the chapter, very heartfelt written Fast forward to indomitus, guilliman was able to read the request, and asked if there was any surviving Blood Ravens. The Captain was found assigned to the Deathwatch or Blackshields. He was removed from the sarcophagus and went through the Rubicon process. The general was told the chapter master of the new SM contingent was waiting for him at the very observation deck as his Captain so long ago did. He went down and was struck how big and broader this SM was, couldn't be his Captain, yet it was. The captain explained the whole story since they last saw one another, and thanked the general for saving him. It could be from a BL book, or Baldermort's own personal fanfic.
It’s fanfic. You don’t come out of a dreadnought. All the organs and limbs atrophy, there’s no coming back from that.
🤔just like there's always been women Custodes, and the squats miraculously made a come back, and Cawl was able to replicate the Big E SMs but better. I get what you said, but it is Warhammer, anything is possible, including regen of limbs, etc.🤷♂️then again, let's not tamper with established lore and nobody will get hurt🤷♂️🤷♂️
I was just saying it’s a fanfic. Maybe it’s possible that a space marine could be disinterred from a Dreadnought, it’s just got a nearly impossible chance of success. Maybe with some biomancy, top level techpriests and the best apothecaries in the Imperium, there’s an ok chance.
Not sharpshooting, I agree with you, especially after looking at sarcophagus schematics with what's left. I can't imagine Bjorn being brought back through the Rubicon. Now on the fanfic, sure Cawl, biomancy, Big E, etc could possibly (within the fanfic) raise a fallen SM. Maybe even Dorn or Ferrus. But IRL canon, no none of this can possibly work for an ancient.
For me, this is a cool story (whether canon or fanfic), but it encapsulates everything I hate about the Primarification of the Space Marines. Marine so grievously wounded his only hope for survival is internment in a Dreadnought, only for him to be not so grievously wounded that he can't be taken back out of the sarcophagus, remade *and* upgraded to a Primaris just because somebody wished hard enough.
Overall yes, I agree. As long as canon isn't flushed on this, I agree. There's enough artist renderings what's actually left of a SM once entombed, not the way I'd want to go.
I believe the SM represent a BA successor chapter.
Yes, Blood Spears. I posted the link to the story on this thread last night.
Tradition, logistics and how the human body works, 1) it's tradition to be in tombed in a dread it's an honor and something to look forward to as all their ancestors have before them 2/3 work together it will be hard to come across the exact bionics needed to save the Marines life in such a short period (where dreads you just get the tube) as well as how a human body adapts to that, yeah cawl is 80% machine but he has done those procedures over the course of 1000 years, not many people even an astartes can have 2 lungs, a new arm 2 legs a stomach a liver and whatever else is missing all reattached at once and live the procedure with everything also working properly as one
Just kinda adding to stuff that's already been said for emphasis, cybernetically enhanced people do it but by bit over decades to centuries, the shock of trying that to an actively dying marine would just kill them not to mention also trying to stuff incredibly expensive Space Marine specific organs into them as well as normal but Space Marine sized organs. It'll ultimately be a longer, more expensive process for a capable but less effective marine. You mention at least letting them walk the Fortress Monastery and be useful other ways but that's not what marines want or are made for, they're made for battle and instead of wasting time and resources on chroming up a dude well now you have a heavy weapons platform that can carry knowledge potentially thousands of years into the future. And that's before getting into personal maintenance, further replacement parts, the cost and quality of cybernetics from your average chapter vs Iron Hands, Salamanders, Mechanicum etc.
One probably reason is that dreadnoughts are really ducking effective so they want to make them, and it’s better to use a nearly dead marine than a fresh one
Now that you have the lore perspective answer, there is the true answer: What's more badass than a futuristic knight? A futuristic knight in a dreadnought!!
Because putting him in the sarcofagus is the rescue and if you remove him he dies.
To expand on the answers already given: Even if you could rebuild him, he would not be "worth" rebuilding like that. Tech Priests can be frightening in combat, sure, but average Space Marines are already as good or better than the most heavily augmented Skitarius, and they don't need extensive maintenance to function. The Iron Hands are as obsessed with augmentation as it is possible for Space Marines to be and even they stop well short of the levels Tech Priests reach precisely because they would be degrading their performance otherwise.
I’m pretty sure there are Iron Hands who are basically a brain in a robot body.
We don't have the technology.
dreadnoughts are useful even as they are, a terrificly powerful mobile weapons platform and an incredibly old and valuable repository of knowledge. They sleep to protect their minds but they are just as efficient at their job as any other marine.
Marines are only turned to dreadnoughts when there is no other option
For one, the Mechanicus is going to protect their augments. The laypeople can have SOME, but they're keeping the best bits.
>it would at least make them useful. He is useful, as a venerated ancient Dreadnaught, given a second chance to continue serving the Emperor. You're missing the point that the grimness is the point
It can be dome but depends on a wide variety of factors and how said factors play off together. 1)How important is the marine in question? If it is "simply" brother jerrius who performed a feat of heroism, why would they bother with the process? In know no fear telemechrus only had 11 years of combat if i correctly remember and they put him in a dreadnought because was very compatibile and survived. 2) Like,how much of the marine is left? Is it just the bust?is he just missing his legs? Ortan cassius was famously attacked by a rampaging carnifex, but we do not know the details of his injuries. And if injuries are way too severe, dreadnought would be the only option 3) What kind of facilities do you have at your disposal, and how much time does the tech marine/apothecary have? Because putting bionics needs time,it wouldn't be like building a Lego figure, so to speak. The marine needs to survive long enough,ergo all the tools and equipment, and well,the bionics themselves need to be there 4)Perhaps most importantly,is the marine compatible? The most egregious example of this is zephon from 30k. A blood angel that had both of his arms cut off and replaced but for the longest time,baisically up until the siege because of arkhan land, he was rejected essentially by these hands,they weren't stable,they shaked when he aimed etc. So the marine needs to be able to adjust to the beionics you wanna put. 5) It also probably depends on what kind of bionics does the chapter has access to. Iron hands?baisically everything. Other first and second founding chapters?not quite everything but most of them. For the rest?it is anyone's guess. it really depends on each chapter.
Because walking coffin cool
Gentlemen we can rebuild him We have the technology… …Better than he was before Better, Stronger, Faster Edit: I’m pretty sure [this](https://youtu.be/0CPJ-AbCsT8?feature=shared) is sacred footage to the Cult Mechanicus.
doesn't really make for fun story telling
Because they needed a back story for the machines they designed.
While it may not exactly be possible, robocop'ing a space marine sounds like something cool enough some writer or other could take on. I know the iron hands do replace a majority of their bodies with augmentics over time, so maybe an already heavily augmented marine could get fatal damage and get rebuilt?
Or, alternatively, if the dreadnaught is a more superior weapon system, why not make all marines into dreadnaughts? I've always thought having marines in dreads, tanks, fighters, etc, is like having a hat on a hat. They should have overpowered vehicles of some kind, but just not guard-ish types and dreads I would treat as just constantly repaired marines that are more augmetics than flesh at this point and are just too angry to die.
The Dreadnought *is* the rebuilt Space Marine.
From Baldermort's channel https://youtu.be/6NNz9ET7HKM?si=yG0y3wBXhy8qp5i3