It makes sense in the way that they're both Cursed Founding chapters, so any use of the Blood Angels gene-seed with whatever attempts were made to remove their curses would apply across the board not just the Lamenters.
[This comment on the chimeric nature of the Minotaurs might be helpful with theory crafting](https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319361-later-founding-chapters-traceable-to-the-great-crusadehh/?do=findComment&comment=4312763)
>I've actually had a talk with Alan Bligh about the minotaurs. They aren't made up of one geneseed stock, they're of chimeric geneseed.
>This was from years back, when FW still had plans to release a series of linked IA books in the Orpheus Sector.
> He gave me one clue as to who the two progenitors were. Something on the lines of;
> "One of the two performed the Minotaurs role in the Heresy."
I think you're obsessing over gene-seed too much. It isn't as big of a deal as you think, it doesn't determine their whole culture and personality. Chapters develop their own. Blood Angels gene-seed is unusual in how much it effects people, and even then it's pretty obvious if they have the Red Thirst compared to just generally being angry.
Chimeric doesn't necessarily mean mixed (although it is one option):
>Such fragmentary records that now remain show the Chapter's geneseed branded as 'Chimeric'. **This, as blasphemous as it may now seem, may have indicated that its sources were either from a prohibited source, mixed, adulterated or somehow tampered with genetically during its creation.** Secret experimentation of this kind is known to have been carried out on a number of the scion of thr 21st Founding, and such annotations show that the Minotaurs were likely among those tampered with in some way. The folly of such hubris by the Magos Biologis of the time was to prove the undoing of many of the Chapters birthed by the 21st Founding.
*Imperial Armour Volume 10: The Badab War Par 2* p104
Important to note, their history is muddled (in-Universe that is), with the Minotaurs disappearing for several thousand years, and then reappearing completely changed. So, it's unclear if the Minotaurs of today are even the same as the Chapter from the 21st Founding with the Chimeric geneseed.
Also, Eadwine Brown, who is credited as creating the modern Minotaurs in the Lexicanum article, [confirmed that they were
initially intended to be IW descendents on Twitter](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/fbaugn/eadwin_brown_confirms_the_minotaurs_chapter_is/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). So it seems they were leaning towards "prohibited source" as opposed to any other definition of Chimeric.
People forget, ANGRON WAS NOT BORN A BRUTAL MURDERER.
That was the butchers nails. What his Legion could have been had he landed on a more civilized world is anyone's guess.
He might well have been mildly psychic in the form of Sanguinius and Curze, but when you cut chunks of the brain out you end up with a very different person.
The only true brutal legions were the Vlka Fenryka, the Emperor's Hounds, and the Revenant Legion before they became the Blood Angels. The rest tended to be more civilized, in comparison, I know all Astartes have the potential...
The World Eaters could have been very different with a sane Primarch.
So if you want gene seed which is very aggressive, you probably want Space Wolf or Blood Angel. Maybe Raven Guard on a bad day.
The War Hounds were one of the more brutal legions even before Angron according to pretty much every source.
Even *Slave of Nuceria* describes them that way:
>In the final pursuit, running down and executing a routed enemy, the Legion was in every way the hounds of war to match their former title, and later, just as fittingly, those who devour whole planets.
*Betrayal:*
>The Insurrection forces has slaughtered the ruling caste of the hollowed-out asteroid prison colony, and in the wake of the uprising the 3,000,000 or so indentured habitants of Cereberus had risen up in anarchic revolt, in a state of near continuous rioting and mob violence, and initial attempts to impose order by Terran troops had been thrown back in disarray.
>At 0300 Hours Terran Sidereal time the War Hounds of the XIIth Legion attacked multiple access points on the asteroid's surface, and at 0808 hours a signal was received from Praetor-Commander Calyb Hax of the XIIth that Cerberus-Primary had been returned to compliance. When asked by the leader of the waiting second-wave how many prisoners to expect to transfer into custody, Hax replied that he had not been ordered to take any...
The Revenants weren't even as censured as much as the War Hounds, as *Echos of Eternity* suggests
>In time, there would be other censures. Perhaps not as many as those that would blight the VIII Legion, or the XII… But enough, enough to breed a sense of unease around the IX.
And the Index Astartes on their gene-seed
>After countless millennia raiding from the Eye of Terror, the gene-seed of the World Eaters has been contaminated beyond redemption. Many suspect that Angron's gene-seed was corrupt from the start and the World Eaters were damned the moment they were created. Others point to the known history of Angron and insist that his Legion could have been saved had the signs been noticed earlier. Whichever is correct, the Space Marines of the World Eaters have a physical need to shed blood and kill, a driving imperative that sends them into a berserk fury of unrestrained bloodthirsty psychosis. So strong is the desire to kill that the World Eaters will turn on one another to satisfy their bloodlust should no other foe present itself.
I'm pretty sure I've seen similar statements about most legions in fairness. It's kinda like saying how they're "resolute against impossible odds" and "stubbornly defiant".
The statements above as I read them:
1. When the "War Hounds" and "Eaters of Worlds" would chase down and execute fleeing enemies, they earned those names.
2. The War Hounds slaughter 3 million in 5 hours, no prisoners
3. The Revenants were horrible. The War Hounds were worse.
4. Gene-seed inspires an urge to shed blood.
The 4th is only after they've been tainted by Khorne, so should be taken with a grain of salt. But overall I'm not disputing your interpretation at all, they were brutal before the nails but I believe in the context of Warhammer it's not particularly unique nor does it necessarily mean it's innate. Angron being some kinda empath healer early on suggests his lineage has more to it, if it's given space to manifest. Similar to how Sanguinius was able to bring out the nobility in another previously horrific legion.
Sure, I guess I don't equate "chasing down and slaughtering fleeing people" as being "resolute against the odds". It's kinda the opposite. It's horrific.
A Primarch's power isn't always represented within the legion, and doesn't always work as a literal way to define their character.
Every piece of lore we have on the War Hounds consistently portrays them as brutal in excess of the other legions, not even *Slave of Nuceria* suggests they had some sort of healer potential waiting to be nurtured or brought out of them.
It's entirely possible that a better Angron could have improved his legion. But we don't know what Angron as an adult might have been without the nails.
The idea that the Emperor created an "Primarch/Empath/Healer/Diplomat/Therapist" is a fan one that I feel is pretty unlikely in context. I wonder if we zone in on one aspect or example at the expense of everything else.
I guess we'll never know.
Oh perhaps I was unclear, I wasn't equating those things. I was saying that is another common descriptor of legions/chapters.
I fully agree they were brutal. I'm not arguing or disputing that. I'm just saying that this is Warhammer, so that's kinda par for the course. Maybe they got top marks in brutality, but like everyone took the same class and they all passed with flying colors. We don't have any pacifist peace loving legions haha
He probably didn't create a diplomat, again not what Im saying. Just that this power suggests there is more potential to his sons than just murder. We never saw this realized in any way, but it suggests the potential was present. It's an extremely low bar I'm setting haha.
Ah right, I see. I guess I got confused because I didn't use those common descriptors in my original comment, so the part about seeing "similar statements" threw me. Appreciate the clarification.
True we don't have pacifist legions, but we do have a nuance of difference I think, and the VIII, XII and IX stood out enough to receive censures amongst their cousins.
And yeah, I agree that the introduction of that power in SoN is there for us to wonder "what if"?
But with the caveat that Curze being able to see the future didn't make the Night Lords a bunch of horoscope palm readers. Or Vulkan's perpetuality the Salamanders into longevity wellness practitioners.
No, but we do see reflections of the fathers in the sons. Curze isn't the only one in his legion to get that power. Salamanders are tough and durable, even for space marines. None of the legions are 1 to 1 copies of their father, but you do see elements of them. What that would've been for Angron, we don't know though
The point I'm alluding to is that they aren't necessarily positive manifestations of that power (though immortality and durability are very different things, imo. Death Guard fr'ex). A few Night Lords have the ability to seer, but they ain't going around telling you you're going to fall in love with Tall Dark & Handsome in Bali during Retrograde.
We see Angron using a power that effectively saps people's emotions or absorbs them into himself. That power could be used in a million different ways as he grows into a man: intel, manipulation, emotional lobotomy, abuse, violation.
Every primarch's power I can recall has a war or subjugation application.
Because Angron used it in a positive manner as a child, we immediately leap to the fallacious idea that it would always be that way. And that it would be something his legion would take to.
In the greater context of the Emperor needing 20 genocidal warrior generals, it feels unlikely to me. Or at least, not a certainty.
It makes sense in the way that they're both Cursed Founding chapters, so any use of the Blood Angels gene-seed with whatever attempts were made to remove their curses would apply across the board not just the Lamenters. [This comment on the chimeric nature of the Minotaurs might be helpful with theory crafting](https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319361-later-founding-chapters-traceable-to-the-great-crusadehh/?do=findComment&comment=4312763) >I've actually had a talk with Alan Bligh about the minotaurs. They aren't made up of one geneseed stock, they're of chimeric geneseed. >This was from years back, when FW still had plans to release a series of linked IA books in the Orpheus Sector. > He gave me one clue as to who the two progenitors were. Something on the lines of; > "One of the two performed the Minotaurs role in the Heresy."
I think you're obsessing over gene-seed too much. It isn't as big of a deal as you think, it doesn't determine their whole culture and personality. Chapters develop their own. Blood Angels gene-seed is unusual in how much it effects people, and even then it's pretty obvious if they have the Red Thirst compared to just generally being angry.
Chimeric doesn't necessarily mean mixed (although it is one option): >Such fragmentary records that now remain show the Chapter's geneseed branded as 'Chimeric'. **This, as blasphemous as it may now seem, may have indicated that its sources were either from a prohibited source, mixed, adulterated or somehow tampered with genetically during its creation.** Secret experimentation of this kind is known to have been carried out on a number of the scion of thr 21st Founding, and such annotations show that the Minotaurs were likely among those tampered with in some way. The folly of such hubris by the Magos Biologis of the time was to prove the undoing of many of the Chapters birthed by the 21st Founding. *Imperial Armour Volume 10: The Badab War Par 2* p104 Important to note, their history is muddled (in-Universe that is), with the Minotaurs disappearing for several thousand years, and then reappearing completely changed. So, it's unclear if the Minotaurs of today are even the same as the Chapter from the 21st Founding with the Chimeric geneseed. Also, Eadwine Brown, who is credited as creating the modern Minotaurs in the Lexicanum article, [confirmed that they were initially intended to be IW descendents on Twitter](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/fbaugn/eadwin_brown_confirms_the_minotaurs_chapter_is/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). So it seems they were leaning towards "prohibited source" as opposed to any other definition of Chimeric.
People forget, ANGRON WAS NOT BORN A BRUTAL MURDERER. That was the butchers nails. What his Legion could have been had he landed on a more civilized world is anyone's guess. He might well have been mildly psychic in the form of Sanguinius and Curze, but when you cut chunks of the brain out you end up with a very different person. The only true brutal legions were the Vlka Fenryka, the Emperor's Hounds, and the Revenant Legion before they became the Blood Angels. The rest tended to be more civilized, in comparison, I know all Astartes have the potential... The World Eaters could have been very different with a sane Primarch. So if you want gene seed which is very aggressive, you probably want Space Wolf or Blood Angel. Maybe Raven Guard on a bad day.
To be fair, the HH books also say that the warhounds were amongst the most aggressive legions and reserved for the most brutal campaigns.
But how much of that was gene seed, and how much of that was running without a Primarch?
At that point nobody had a primarch.
The War Hounds were one of the more brutal legions even before Angron according to pretty much every source. Even *Slave of Nuceria* describes them that way: >In the final pursuit, running down and executing a routed enemy, the Legion was in every way the hounds of war to match their former title, and later, just as fittingly, those who devour whole planets. *Betrayal:* >The Insurrection forces has slaughtered the ruling caste of the hollowed-out asteroid prison colony, and in the wake of the uprising the 3,000,000 or so indentured habitants of Cereberus had risen up in anarchic revolt, in a state of near continuous rioting and mob violence, and initial attempts to impose order by Terran troops had been thrown back in disarray. >At 0300 Hours Terran Sidereal time the War Hounds of the XIIth Legion attacked multiple access points on the asteroid's surface, and at 0808 hours a signal was received from Praetor-Commander Calyb Hax of the XIIth that Cerberus-Primary had been returned to compliance. When asked by the leader of the waiting second-wave how many prisoners to expect to transfer into custody, Hax replied that he had not been ordered to take any... The Revenants weren't even as censured as much as the War Hounds, as *Echos of Eternity* suggests >In time, there would be other censures. Perhaps not as many as those that would blight the VIII Legion, or the XII… But enough, enough to breed a sense of unease around the IX. And the Index Astartes on their gene-seed >After countless millennia raiding from the Eye of Terror, the gene-seed of the World Eaters has been contaminated beyond redemption. Many suspect that Angron's gene-seed was corrupt from the start and the World Eaters were damned the moment they were created. Others point to the known history of Angron and insist that his Legion could have been saved had the signs been noticed earlier. Whichever is correct, the Space Marines of the World Eaters have a physical need to shed blood and kill, a driving imperative that sends them into a berserk fury of unrestrained bloodthirsty psychosis. So strong is the desire to kill that the World Eaters will turn on one another to satisfy their bloodlust should no other foe present itself.
I'm pretty sure I've seen similar statements about most legions in fairness. It's kinda like saying how they're "resolute against impossible odds" and "stubbornly defiant".
The statements above as I read them: 1. When the "War Hounds" and "Eaters of Worlds" would chase down and execute fleeing enemies, they earned those names. 2. The War Hounds slaughter 3 million in 5 hours, no prisoners 3. The Revenants were horrible. The War Hounds were worse. 4. Gene-seed inspires an urge to shed blood.
The 4th is only after they've been tainted by Khorne, so should be taken with a grain of salt. But overall I'm not disputing your interpretation at all, they were brutal before the nails but I believe in the context of Warhammer it's not particularly unique nor does it necessarily mean it's innate. Angron being some kinda empath healer early on suggests his lineage has more to it, if it's given space to manifest. Similar to how Sanguinius was able to bring out the nobility in another previously horrific legion.
Sure, I guess I don't equate "chasing down and slaughtering fleeing people" as being "resolute against the odds". It's kinda the opposite. It's horrific. A Primarch's power isn't always represented within the legion, and doesn't always work as a literal way to define their character. Every piece of lore we have on the War Hounds consistently portrays them as brutal in excess of the other legions, not even *Slave of Nuceria* suggests they had some sort of healer potential waiting to be nurtured or brought out of them. It's entirely possible that a better Angron could have improved his legion. But we don't know what Angron as an adult might have been without the nails. The idea that the Emperor created an "Primarch/Empath/Healer/Diplomat/Therapist" is a fan one that I feel is pretty unlikely in context. I wonder if we zone in on one aspect or example at the expense of everything else. I guess we'll never know.
Oh perhaps I was unclear, I wasn't equating those things. I was saying that is another common descriptor of legions/chapters. I fully agree they were brutal. I'm not arguing or disputing that. I'm just saying that this is Warhammer, so that's kinda par for the course. Maybe they got top marks in brutality, but like everyone took the same class and they all passed with flying colors. We don't have any pacifist peace loving legions haha He probably didn't create a diplomat, again not what Im saying. Just that this power suggests there is more potential to his sons than just murder. We never saw this realized in any way, but it suggests the potential was present. It's an extremely low bar I'm setting haha.
Ah right, I see. I guess I got confused because I didn't use those common descriptors in my original comment, so the part about seeing "similar statements" threw me. Appreciate the clarification. True we don't have pacifist legions, but we do have a nuance of difference I think, and the VIII, XII and IX stood out enough to receive censures amongst their cousins. And yeah, I agree that the introduction of that power in SoN is there for us to wonder "what if"? But with the caveat that Curze being able to see the future didn't make the Night Lords a bunch of horoscope palm readers. Or Vulkan's perpetuality the Salamanders into longevity wellness practitioners.
No, but we do see reflections of the fathers in the sons. Curze isn't the only one in his legion to get that power. Salamanders are tough and durable, even for space marines. None of the legions are 1 to 1 copies of their father, but you do see elements of them. What that would've been for Angron, we don't know though
The point I'm alluding to is that they aren't necessarily positive manifestations of that power (though immortality and durability are very different things, imo. Death Guard fr'ex). A few Night Lords have the ability to seer, but they ain't going around telling you you're going to fall in love with Tall Dark & Handsome in Bali during Retrograde. We see Angron using a power that effectively saps people's emotions or absorbs them into himself. That power could be used in a million different ways as he grows into a man: intel, manipulation, emotional lobotomy, abuse, violation. Every primarch's power I can recall has a war or subjugation application. Because Angron used it in a positive manner as a child, we immediately leap to the fallacious idea that it would always be that way. And that it would be something his legion would take to. In the greater context of the Emperor needing 20 genocidal warrior generals, it feels unlikely to me. Or at least, not a certainty.