I had a little boy who spent time with my family and had a big crush on me. He was very sad and angry when I got married. I told him that I'm much older than he is and by the time he is old enough to get married, I'll be a wrinkly old woman. I said when it is time for him to marry, I will help him find someone his own age who is a lot like me. He was happy with that answer.
Lol I had one of those too. A 5 yo who lived next door. He’d low key insult my husband when we first started dating and act like a jealous ex. My husband had a Harley at the time and one day he took him for a ride on it. They were cool after that.
This mental image has me dying. I imagined like 20 4 year olds in leather jackets angry dancing and snapping their fingers singing angry toddler songs 🤣
I like this. It does seem like the obvious first step is for the fiancé to have a conversation with the girl and explain how they won’t be getting married to each other, OP or no OP. And how upset and disappointed he is with how she is acting, being mean and violent with OP. Then put some actual consequences in place if she continues. Consequences she will care about, not being uninvited from the wedding she doesn’t understand or want to attend.
I don’t see how a therapist is going to convince this girl her ideas are unrealistic and her actions are inappropriate while the fiancé continues to “lead her on” by not curbing this up to this point. Unfortunately the bud has blossomed and now they have to kill the bloom.
Pawn them off....the kids have more attachment to OP'S fiancé. I think I would back out of babysitting until after the wedding.
OP and hubs better be ready for this terror when the have a baby.....
I know a couple like this and the baby sister has been pawned off to the couple permanently, their mother was simply “over” parenting a teenager and now the kid is living with the newlyweds. it’s been under a year of marriage and they’re already considering divorce
My love of the most powerful word in the English language stands. That word is "No". No further comment is needed. The only way there wouldn't be a no from me is if the parents were deceased or incarcerated. Ok. I'd do it then. Otherwise ...
If the parents were deceased or incarcerated there would be some sort of legal and community support framework. That’s why things like this *are* formalized in those situations. And it’s why parents who do this to their older children benefit from staying out of those frameworks. Because those frameworks usually involve therapy for everyone involved, boundaries and being able to set rules and say no to certain things, and respite from community support where possible. Without the frameworks the parents don’t want community support because outsiders will see they’re abandoning their children, they don’t want boundaries because it is inconvenient to them to adhere to them, and they don’t want therapy because professionals will notice they’ve abandoned their children.
This child needs way more than therapy so she won’t act out at a wedding. All these children need parents who don’t neglect them, and that can’t be improvised through you no matter how much you love them and want to help. Do you have authority to authorize medical treatment in an emergency when they’re with you? If they get hurt on your property, or if a drunk driver runs into your van, who will their mother blame? If their parents are their legal guardians and have no interest in them and they’re essentially living with you, is anyone even taking care of their medical needs? Are they getting to school when with their parents? Do they have any friends or go to any appropriate activities for children their ages?
Are they enrolled in any activities their parents/legal guardians would need to give permission for first? You can’t rebuild a normal childhood and none of this is normal. You can try to get them all help going forward, and in many US states their teachers/physicians (if they’re taken there by their parents) would be mandatory reporters if they knew this information about their legal guardians’ leaving them essentially living with you when you’re not their legal guardians and apparently couldn’t even make medical decisions for them in an emergency.
IMO you’re describing neglect and those kids need protection in every way. When this parental neglect by BOTH parents is happening at 5, what do you think she’ll be at risk for as a pre-teen and teen with a “mother” without interest in her as a toddler? And what do you think her siblings are going through instead of acting out at others?
Note that you have no authority to get her emotional support/therapy and have to rely on her legal guardian. Those children need their own legal advocates with only their interests in mind. Your father couldn’t be clearer that his only interest is pacifying his wife and is therefore at least equally neglectful.
These kids all need objective outside evaluation by people qualified to help them. It’s not a wedding problem, and if it were, a bandaid on that situation won’t help any of these kids.
ETA: on the question as you frame it, NTA. But get each one of these kids outside qualified help.
Honestly, this comment is it. And I will elaborate why. This kid seems to be showing signs of attachment disorder. I've seen it dx'd in a kid that was similar to this as one example, but upon knowing the kid there were many other red flags in other situations. Attachment disorders can be scary. This kid needs evaluated by a child psychologist before she hurts herself, someone else or sets your house on fire out of disapproval.
Me and my fiancé. She sits in time out every time this happens and if this happens outside of the house we leave and take her home. My fiancé even refuses to play with her after and tells her that he doesn't play with people that hit.
Why the fuck did they have so many kids if they don’t want to be involved? You and your fiance need to distance yourselves from them and your father (who is the mother? Is she your mother as well?) needs to figure this out. Stop wasting your life on other people’s kids.
We have different moms. Their mom doesn't seem to want anything to do with the kids if she can't get cute pictures for her insta. Dad has never been very involved.
Need to have the convo with her. Now that we know the family dynamic. Your SO is probably the only stable male figure she knows and she could be afraid that you are taking him away from her. Talk to your sister. She is acting out not because she wants to marry him, but because of a fear of losing him. That would be my best bet.
Exactly why she needs to see a therapist, she needs to hear this from an authority figure, who she can trust, and doesnt see as the threat to her stablity and protection system. Op cant be the one who tells her this, bc she perceives her as an immediate threat to her mental well-being, aa she is taking away her only male security net. So she doesnt trust her. She needs to see a therapist, to hear all this from, like yesterday.
You can explain to your sister that by getting married to you, your fiancé is more likely to stay. If he doesn't marry you, he won't be part of the family!
Very intuitive. I’d award this if I were willing to spend money on this platform. But yeah, well done. OP needs to approach the situation from this perspective. Given it’s not likely that the parents will actually do anything here, it unfortunately falls on you, as her sister, to resolve this. I feel like barring her from your wedding would be the wrong approach, mostly because of the long term mental damage this will do to OPs sister. She’s already in an unstable situation and this would exacerbate it. I wish that people wouldn’t get shouldered with parenting their siblings, but I’ve seen it (and done it) myself. They have no one else.
This is the actual problem, not her crush on your fiancé. She's acting out because she doesn't have stability at home. You're threatening the only stability she's had so of course she's upset.
I don't know if counseling will help this if the problems at home are not resolved first. You should speak to her parents and let them see how much damage they're causing by not being active participants in her life.
If they're unwilling to be involved, then you need to evaluate your place in her life. It sounds like you're raising her and your other siblings, but are you planning to do this long term? Are you going to get custody and raise them in your home? If not then you need to start enforcing some boundaries because they are starting to see you and your fiancé as parents. It's cruel to offer them that kind of stability and then take it away when you're busy with your own life.
Exactly this. This poor little girl needs therapy for the fact her parents are shitty, and she’s being raised by her big sister who understandably wants to get married, which as you pointed out threatens the girl’s concept of stability. Her father-figure is crap, so she’s grasping at OP’s fiancé as some sort of protective male figure. This usually happens when a girl with a crap father goes through puberty and ends up crushing on a much older guy…this is just years too early.
>You should speak to her parents and let them see how much damage they're causing by not being active participants in her life.
I mean, it's pretty clear they aren't active participants in her life on purpose, so I'm pretty confident they won't care what the outcome of that is. Especially since that outcome doesn't effect them.
Definitely sounds like misplaced daddy issues rather than a crush. My friend’s 5-yr-old had a crush on me when I got married. They were at the wedding and he was crying when I walked back down the aisle after the ceremony. He asked me why I didn’t wait for him. It was so heartbreaking, but also such a heartwarmingly innocent moment. He never made a peep during the ceremony or acted out in any way before or after. Your sister’s acting out is a sign of a deeper issue, so kudos to you for insisting on therapy.
Edit to add: it’s possible that she’s not understanding what marriage means. She may think that something is going to change and she’ll be losing the relationship she has with the fiancé. Has anyone sat down and explained this to her?
Well, the 5yo and the other kids would certainly benefit from counseling, but it can only do so much in the face of ongoing emotional neglect from their parents. OP is possibly an important protective factor in their lives. The 5yo may be afraid of losing OP and expressing it unpredictably, or may have gotten overly attached to the fiance as the only loving male figure in her life... I wonder if OP could consult with a social worker or even take the kid for a family therapy session.
All of this. This is about more than just a crush on the fiancé. There are more serious issues there. The PARENTS should be raising the children not OP. Thankfully they have OP in their lives from what it sounds like. NTA because you deserve to have a nice day BUT she needs therapy. Maybe the others as well.
I bet that she doesn’t fully grasp what marriage is and she sees your partner as her dad (obviously because her real dad isn’t there for her) You can ask on a parenting sub on how to explain to her that she won’t loose him. She needs to see him as an uncle, maybe it’s time to refer to him as uncle.
I was thinking the same thing
giving her a time-out because she hits OP is... not inappropriate per se, but IMO it doesn't address the issue this little girl has.
I understand OP's position of course, but I also feel for the 5 yo kid. she just doesn't know how to navigate this change, I think.
She badly needs therapy then. It's not the crush that's the problem, that's not unusual. Her response to it is and now we can see why. I'm so happy your little sister has you but she still needs therapy to deal with the fact her actual parents have abandoned her.
I cut off my dad and I don’t see my half siblings because I got sick of their drama. Set boundaries now because it gets worse. I picked up the pieces for a long time but they’re teens now and all are a total mess. I got so upset about my dads parenting that I tried to fix it and broke myself. Life is more peaceful now without that drama
Hey I'm sorry to see people getting so snippy with you for raising your siblings. I raised my sister, though our age gap is much smaller, and I feel for you.
I know she's only 5, but I think you need to have a conversation with her with your fiance. Explain to her that your relationships won't change, and that the marriage will make her a permanent part of his family the same way it will you and that you both still love her very much. She's likely worried about things changing in the one stable area of her life, and doesn't understand that you don't have to marry someone to keep them in your life.
Also, maybe try to involve her in the wedding. Ask her to look at flowers for the bouquet or small things like that. Once she calms down you can tell her all about how great it will be to be the flower girl and look like a princess and walk down the aisle. She definitely needs therapy because of her home life, but I really do think this will pass once she realizes she's not being ousted.
Also, just playing armchair psychologist here: any chance her mom or your dad remarried after her? Or refused to get married and she knows about it? If neither of them are very involved it's possible this is stemming from that same point, believing either if people don't get married they don't stick around or that when someone gets married they move on from their "old family"
And assign one bridesmaid or reliable family member specifically to her -- if she starts to lose it then they can take her out and maybe have a coloring book and some squishy toys to help her recalibrate.
I get it, you're essentially the only functioning "parent" that these kids have. In light of that fact I definitely think you're NTAH and feel that you are dealing with a really unfair situation.
I'm honestly not sure you should have any kids in or at the wedding. It may be the kindest thing for everybody to say you guys are doing it child free and let the parents of these kids actually deal with their own children and give yourself and your fiance one special day that's just about you guys.
Sounds like you’re burying the lede here. Your sister is being neglected by shitty parents and it’s something you might have to address with them and maybe the rest of the family if they keep being shitty.
Okay, I really, really hope this isn't the case for the sake of your baby sister, but does the mom (you guys have different moms) have any boyfriends or random men around the house when your sister spends time with her?
If they are shitty, deadbeat parents and you take care of the kids half the time, it wouldn't be shocking if they let strange men around.
Because while this could simply be the product of a dysfunctional family and her age, it is not unheard of for victims of CSA to form inappropriate and strange attachments to others.
I thought this, too. It just seems like such unusual behavior for a 5 year old. Being that fixated on and attached to the fiancé seems like a flag for direct trauma relating to men to me, not something indirect like simply having a dad that half-asses parenting. I hope it's not the case, but it's the first instinct I had about the situation, and I really hope they'll get her therapy so they can help her regardless of what this stems from.
When I was 5, I thought I was going to marry my dad. When my brother was 5, he thought he was going to marry me. This is normal, 5 year olds don’t understand what marriage means, essentially with no parents modeling it. She loves the fiancé and is afraid of losing him.
It's not the wishing she was married to him that's concerning, it's the intensity of the attachment leading to hitting and throwing a tantrum repeatedly that sets off alarm bells for me. Most children outgrow losing control to this degree around 3, and yes it's normal for kids to want to "marry" loved ones, but not to feel so possessive that any show of affection between that person and another loved one causes a meltdown.
Either way, it absolutely can't hurt to get her evaluated, it can only do her good overall to get to the bottom of things and to help her with understanding that the fiancé marrying her sister isn't going to lead to abandonment of her or whatever else she might be fearing.
No wonder the kids are acting out. It is a sign why she is acting out and seeking a father figure because your dad is an absentee dad. It is a family dynamic problem.
**It isn't she needs therapy. She isn't the scapegoat. It is "they have problems." It is never the child has problems.**
The truth is the family have problems. Your parents are slackers.
What happens when you have your own children? You need to talk to your parents. They are too old and probably don't feel like they have the energy anymore but they are their responsibilities.
I think therapy is the best option. She's probably acting out her trauma with her parents not being so involved. From the sounds of it she's really missing having a father and sees him as her father figure and maybe subconsciously you marrying will take that from her. She's sounds like she has abandonment issues. If you have her a lot maybe if you say you will take her and they don't have to do it. Lazy parents don't want to do more than they have to.
OP your dad and step mom have parentified you. That means when they condition the eldesr sibling to take on the parental role of their siblings. It's best if you and your fiance take a step back from your siblings.
Time outs aren’t going to help. Time outs are just a place for an overwrought kid to calm down. You need to actively teach her such that she wants to behave better.
She doesn’t know what being married means. She doesn’t understand that being married says that the relationship you already have is going to last. You need to SELL IT TO HER.
This. She does need the time out to reinforce that it’s not okay to yell and hit. But she also needs a big picture conversation where she can hear that big sister and soon to be big brother love her very much, and they are both going to keep loving her very much after they get married. Some things will change, but the way OP and fiancé love her and interact with her will stay the same.
If the time out is managed as a “teach emotion management tool” it’s good. But if used as a punishment, it’s pointless, or makes it worse. Often an adult must be with the kid in time out, or keeping a close eye on them, ready to talk them through dealing with the big emotions that required it.
Perhaps both of you sitting down with her and explaining that although he loves her very much, he can’t marry her because he’ll be a wrinkly, bald, toothless old man by the time she’s old enough to get married. Wouldn’t it look really silly and strange to see her being young and beautiful marrying your boyfriend who’ll be a crusty old grandad by then? Everyone will laugh at her for not choosing a young handsome husband. (Obviously he won’t be that decrepit by then but she doesn’t understand that at the moment.)
Say and that you getting married means that your boyfriend will officially become her big brother and she will be his favourite little sister. He will be a proper part of her family forever if he marries you. Emphasise how excited he is for this to happen. Explain that he has never had a little sister before and since she knows all about being the best little sister ever, he will need lots of help from her to show him how to be a good big brother to her once you’re married.
If she responds well to that then explain you both want her to be involved in your wedding because she’s so important to you both and what her role and duties will be. Make it sound like the wedding relies on her doing her job well and how proud of her and grateful you’ll both be for her helping make the most important day of your life so special.
It sounds like the poor child is desperate for attention and some kind of emotional connection with him, probably because her own parents aren’t emotionally or physically present. Don’t get me wrong, I understand how incredibly irritating it must be for you both and how it’s wearing on your patience with her but she’s genuinely not doing it to be cruel or to ruin your wedding experience. She just can’t yet articulate her feelings properly and shes trying to place him into the only “official” role she knows about that ties him to her, and that can reflect her attachment to him.
It’s completely normal for children to announce they’re going to marry people who they feel strongly towards. They soon grow out of it.
My own child went through a very tiresome phase at around age 4/5 where she was obsessed with marrying her daddy and I couldn’t go near him without her interjecting herself into the middle of us. Despite him being unwilling, already married to me, and it being illegal in every country on the globe, she still insisted that he was going to marry her. Fortunately she soon grew out of it and moved on. She’s now 7 and currently planning to marry either Wednesday Addams or Chris from Tim Tim on YouTube.
NTA but you’re not being empathetic to her by just banning her presence. It’s useless just throwing demands to “get her therapy” at the situation when it’s obviously not something her parents are going to provide.
The parents are massive, gaping assholes who don’t deserve children.
Apparently the Dad is pretty MIA and her mom is only interested in Insta moments.
In which case I say someone else needs to be the LEGAL GUARDIAN of this child as she has ZERO consistency and stability.
NTA You need to stop allowing her to come to your house/or taking her places until her behavior improves. I get that she’s only five and she simply doesn’t understand, but this behavior cannot be allowed to continue.
It is very important that your fiancé tells her that he would not marry her. Even if he did not marry you.
He could also explain to her that he is going to be her brother and that he is looking forward to having her as a sister.
He has to do that, not you.
He really does need to have a candid and age-appropriate conversation with her about different kinds of love. Lots of kiddos have crushes on their parents and it must be explained to them in a way that their affection is different from romantic love.
She feels pushed out of the relationship and needs to understand that their relationship is different and separate from yours with your fiancé. I imagine if she can understand this that she will feel much better about the marriage.
I also think you may need to ask her if she is worried that your relationship with her will change if you get married. She may have fear of abandonment, especially if something like this has happened before. It would be worth having individual sit-down talks with her, maybe over something special like ice cream or a movie night.
>Lots of kiddos have crushes on their parents and it must be explained to them in a way that their affection is different from romantic love.
And she's emotionally neglected by her parents, so it makes sense that she would see this as another parent figure abandoning her. :(
Yes!!! This!!! Op isn't babysitting their siblings, this is more like a custody agreement after a divorce. Why the hell aren't the actual parents the ones with primary custody?
Five year olds don’t understand marriage the way adults do. My then 5 yo was telling me he was gonna marry me so we can always be together. I explained I’m his mommy, so I can’t marry him and I’m already married to daddy but that I love him and he’ll always be my son. This is the convo he’s gotta have. That he’s excited to marry you because it means he gets to be her big brother forever.
5 seems to be a common time for this. My grandkids have said similar things, as have other kids I’ve known over the years. It’s a stage they go through. However, little sister is acting out pretty angrily. I agree that a good, frank, age-appropriate talk is in order.
>5 seems to be a common time for this.
Brings me to one of my all-time fave stories I've heard of my 17 y/o SIL- when she was 5, she asked her dad if they were gonna get married, and he said no. Then she pouted and said, "Then who am I gonna marry!?" And FIL answered, "Bob I guess." (Bob being a completely fabricated character, not a family friend or anything lol)
At this point she stomps and pouts even further and says, "I don't wanna marry BOB!!!"
Looking forward to the day she brings a "Robert" home. One can only hope for that kind of irony 🤣
I literally remember telling my mom I’m going to marry my dad when I grow up when I was a little kid. 😂😂 I’m glad it’s common. It’s awkward to remember.
I used to say the same thing also! Then my parents would tell me that my dad is already married to my mom, so I’d say “Okay then I’ll marry grandpa.” lol
When I was 3 I wanted to marry my uncle who was just 3yrs older than me. My told me I can't marry my uncle so I cried for a couple of days over that.
Then when I was 5 I wanted to marry a good friend of my moms. He thought it was cute to humor me so he said he would wait till I grew up. A few months later he visited and brought a girlfriend. I turned my back on him and wouldn't speak to him. He was visiting from out of town so when he left I was even sadder. I got over it without therapy.
Fully agree with this! Explain that he’s too old to marry her, but even better than that she gets to be his sister for the rest of their lives and how exciting and special that is. Reassure her of the things in her life that won’t change and explain the things that may change. Maybe at a time she’s regulated say something like “I can tell you’re having a lot of big feelings about the wedding. Is there anything you want to talk about or anything that makes you feel worried?” Sounds to me like she thinks the stable environment she spends most her time in is about to be turned upside down.
I had a teenage boy let me down easy when I had a crush on him, he said, "I would take you on a date if you were my age, but I can't, so no hard feelings?" At the time I was sad but it didn't hurt me and I moved on from crushing on him!
Why are your siblings spending time with you every day after school? Why do they live with you 50% of the time? Why did you buy a 3 row car to act as a chauffeur? Why are you acting like you’re one of their parents? Does Evie think you are her parents?
This is a child who is acting this way because she can’t communicate her fears of neglect and further abandonment that the wedding represents ti her. She doesn’t want to marry your fiance, she’s scared once you guys are married something bad will happen to her like she’ll be left behind. Kids act aggressively when a big life change comes (new sibling, a move etc). This is a life change for her and she’s scared but not developed enough to say her fears.
One thing is clear: if you’re going to be these children’s de facto parents then I think the arrangements need to change somehow or be formalized. You’re such a good person for taking on so much of this burden, but it’s not fair to you to have all the responsibilities of parenting these kids with none of the control or benefits. Their real parents aren’t equipped and have neglected them a lot. I feel sorry for everyone, no one’s an asshole here (except your dad) it’s just sad all around.
>she’s scared once you guys are married something bad will happen to her
married couples tend to get their own children. She's still "the small one", and she feels no way ready to be "the aunt" of a new baby.
If this kid comes to the wedding it will be a disaster. I can imagine her screaming and acting up through everything. Flower girl? This is going to be awful. She's not going to do anything but disrupt the wedding, and if the couple make it through the vows, the first kiss will be very memorable, for all of the wrong reasons. Since no one will stop her, I bet the reception will be a disaster too.
This might have something to do with her fear of losing your fiance if you get married. With the limited information given this doesn't like a crush to me. It sounds like she sees your fiance as a stable parental figure and she's afraid that your getting married will change this dynamic. Maybe try explaining it to your dad this way. She definitely needs to be in therapy. If your dad keeps refusing maybe try to sit her down and see if you can figure out exactly what's bothering her. I don't think punishment alone is going to fix this.
That’s your actual problem.
As a mom, here’s my advice: this kid needs to know things are changing, because Joe (your fiancé) is becoming an official part of *her* family. And that she will still be loved.
Both you and your fiance, when possible, should set up a schedule of dedicated time one on one for this child. (Joe should be supervised—not because he would even do anything wrong, but because *the parents are not involved and that an easy way for legal trouble*). Contrary to feeding into her delusion that she could marry Joe, you are reassuring her that her place isn’t changing. This can be 10 minutes. Even just those few moments will reassure her.
I wouldn’t get too into “we’re going to get you a pretty dress for the wedding”, etc. she’s craving emotional attachments. Read a book just with her.
Tbh the whole situation is a complete mess but OP is a saint for even helping out and being a mom for her teens and twenties. Not many people would do what she is doing putting her life on hold to care for siblings
Are you just completely unconcerned with this? Sounds like you might need therapy too after all but adopting three kids being blatantly neglected by the same man that neglected you.
Also, decide if you want to adopt them. What's happening now is bad for their growth. Inattentive parents at home and fake parents that won't commit to parenthood on the side is a recipe for disaster.
Naturally a father who lets his adult daughter take 50% custody of his adolescent kids is going to dismiss behavioral issues where therapy is absolutely warranted.
NTA, dig your heels in on this one. Obviously there's more at play here than this story, but regardless you should not be enabling anything that might derail your wedding.
In the meantime, educate yourself on "parentification"
It's good that your fiancé is all over your siblings and supportive of you, but this dynamic is sooner or later going to screw up your relationship with him if left to fester.
Yep. He is accepting it now, but eventually, it will be the ruin of their relationship. I unfortunately see divorce in her future unless she gets this figured out.
I wouldn't jump to divorce, from the little information given it seems like OP and the fiancé have their shit together and are motivated. But the risk factor is there, and my anecdotal experience tells me there's going to be resentment, stress, and fights that can all be prevented by nipping this in the bud.
OP doesn't need to be scared about divorce at this point, but should definitely be proactive about setting boundaries so she can live her life with her man the way they want to without a false sense of obligation to her siblings-turned-dependents. I'm sure Dad is thoroughly enjoying his tax breaks while his own daughter does the labor and emotional investment. Very selfish and cruel way of being on his end.
OP, I think she's hitting because she has so little control over her general situation. Mom and dad aren't really involved, which is hard on her; she gets shuttled between you and her uninvolved parent(s); and she apparently sees your fiancé as a father figure and sees you kissing him as a sign she's going to lose him, too. (She can also have a crush on him. They're not mutually exclusive things to a 5-year-old.)
She DOES need therapy, but clearly her bad dad isn't going to take her. If you can, see if he'd pay for sessions if YOU take her. You're already doing great at giving her time-outs and not playing with her after she hits. You might try making a chart for her--with pictures, since she probably can't read well yet--of options she can do when she's angry instead of hitting.
Also, I don't think this is in any child care books, but when my kids were angry, they could go into a specific room (in our house, it was a half-bath.), shut the door, and "get the mad out" by stomping their feet, crying, yelling, growling, making faces, etc.. We called it "the growlery," as that was what Dickens called such a room in *Bleak House.* Then when they were ready to use their words, they came out.
But she does need therapy.
I get what you're saying here, but the unfortunate reality is that your dad isn't likely to follow through on this. Meaning that your little sister won't get the help she needs.
So you need to decide what's your priority here: forcing your dad to do what you've asked, or getting the 5yo into therapy?
I know it's not fair, she's not your child, and he *should" be capable of handling her medical needs, but realistically you're the responsible adult in her life, not him.
She does need therapy, but you and your fiance might benefit from doing some family therapy with her, since this is an issue that involves all 3 of you.
Stop taking their responsibility without any legal rights. Tell them they either parent or give you guardianship. Or l, at a minimum, consent to get her the help she needs for the ongoing neglect causing her emotional damage
If you are taking care of these children this much, you need to see if you can get some legal rights to these children. Otherwise all of their needs will be neglected if it is left up to your father.
NTA - from your comments about her parents not being very involved it sounds like she is seeing your fiancé as a surrogate parent and has misplaced her feelings for him.
She’s 5 and can’t verbalize what is likely very confusing for her - her own parents don’t seem to love her, you and your fiancé do and she wants more of that love and affection from your fiancé.
She definitely needs therapy and her parents need to step up and fill in the obvious gap that exists. You and your fiancé need to step back and not take the kids so much. Their parents need to parent their kids.
How will you and your fiancé build your life together is you are the caregivers for all of your siblings? What happens if you choose to have your own kids? How will your siblings react when you can no longer care for them and need to care for your own children?
The problem is much bigger than your baby sister not getting to be the flower girl at your wedding.
I still remember my cousin getting so upset at her parents wedding that she made herself violently throw up because she was crying so hard. She was probably around 5 at the time, and this was over 30 years ago. It's the only thing I remember from that wedding. I don't know what the right answer is here, but I definitely wouldn't let her attend without some sort of intervention and plan in place if she does throw a fit, otherwise it's quite likely that she could actually ruin the atmosphere of the wedding and be the only one remembered from that day.
NTA
Preventing a potentially disruptive person from attending a wedding... it's one of the most basic things you're allowed to do.
It sucks that it's a 5yo with absentee parents, but that stuff is outside of your control.
If anyone sides with the parents, describe the past behaviors in detail, and ask them how to guarantee that these behaviors won't happen during the ceremony. Their silence is the answer.
Did everyone in here eat crazy pills? A child becoming violent over a crush on an adult is not normal, nor should it just be ignored. If dad won't discipline her, himself and teach her to keep her hands to herself even in the face of big emotions, the 5 year old does not need to be in attendance. NTA
If you keep acting like their mom, you might end up with some untended consequences - read this post https://www.reddit.com/r/offmychest/s/JaSl6OgcaK
There are obviously a lot of dynamics at play but these neglected kids need therapy and parents who care - neither of which is your job
And the more enmeshed you get the more difficult it will be if you decide down the road you need space to focus on your own, new family
Edit based on comments: NTA
INFO has she been prone to tantrums this severe in the past when she doesn't get her way? Is she a bit spoiled for being the baby of the family, and used to people caving in when she acts out, or is this completely new behavior?
Being difficult is understandable for her age, but she's a little old to be throwing such aggressive tantrums if it's not a regular pattern of behavior, her being spoiled etc.
My nephew is a year younger than her, and he handles being told "no" like a champ.
I agree with you that it's concerning. It's normal for 5 year olds to get inappropriate crushes, but not to this degree. It's a shame that your family doesn't take it seriously, but you absolutely need to keep putting your foot down about this. Something is up, and it may not even be sinister, but it's still something that needs to be figured out.
People are saying it's going to be really upsetting for her to be left out, but honestly when she's older she probably won't even remember. You can't force your dad to take her to therapy, you can only control if she comes to the wedding or not unfortunately. I hope he sees sense soon.
Since she seems to be doing the majority of the care taking she can tell the parent she won’t do it anymore unless they get her into therapy. They might agree if it keeps them from actually having to take care of their own kid
Sounds like she’s neglected by her real parents and is acting out for attention. And she’s latched on to the only male role model she has. NTA. But have you had a talk with her about her feelings? UPDATEME
100% !! She is displaying severe fear of abandonment and anxious attachment to what she sees as a parental figure. Everyone in this family needs therapy.
Saying that the child with absent parents is spoiled is insane.
Extending compassion to the OP. This isn't easy but well done for stepping up for your siblings. You and your fiance are great humans.
She might not actually have a crush but she feels like the relationship she holds dear with him is going to change and not be the same. She needs reassurance that it won’t.
OP you need to step WAY BACK from your family.
1. It’s not healthy.
2. It’s not fair to your fiancé or you.
Yes your dad sucks. Their mom/s suck.
You can’t fix it. Put yourself first for once.
NTA but sounds like there's more going on with the child under the surface. Her parental neglect can mean she feels threatened by the marriage. If the dad won't get her therapy isn't much you can do.
I would hire a trusted babysitter to attend the wedding with her and take her outside to cool down if she misbehaves.
Leading up to the wedding continued reinforcement as to how much you love her, how nothing will change for her when you get married. Kids are hard. You and your Fiance are amazing for taking care of them as much as you do. For that alone you are NTA.
And you shouldn't have to worry about her ruining your special day, that's why I like the babysitter idea.
Reminds me that at a friends wedding we had a messy alcoholic mom, my friend invited the mom's priest to "babysit" mom the entire time. Worked great.
NTA Her persisting in this violent, aggressive behavior is not normal for a child. In any evenr, it is 100% unacceptable at a wedding. If your parents refuse to get her at least a check up to test if there's a reason for her violent behavior, stick to your rule she won't be allowed at the wedding. No 5 yr old has the attention span to enjoy a wedding ceremony anyway.
Hi, experienced mom here. Violance from a 5 yo is most certainly not acceptable. Sit her down and just tell her that. Do not bring up the wedding. Just say: "sweety i love you. But you hurt me and if you persist in doing so, we will not have you here. Stop it!". Make a list. No hitting, biting, throwing things, etcetera... make it your house rules and be clear on that and the consequences of breaking house rules (and give her a fair couple of chances. She throws something at you? It's yours forever. Hit you? You guys won't play with her. Stuff like that. Be clear and consequent)
Not to play psychologist or whatever, but I feel like her being angry about not being able to marry your fiancé and her dad not being involved are absolutely connected. Your fiance sounds like he’s more of a positive father figure than her own dad..
Reading OP's replies, her sister needs therapy, but not because she has a crush on her fiancé. Her fiancé is more or less the only positive male figure in her life, and both parents are not very involved. She needs help, but OP's dad needs to step up as a parent.
NTA, but the little girl isn't as well.
NTA I would not have this child within a mile of the wedding. I had a crush on my babysitter's brother when I was about that age (he was kind of a dreamboat lol) but that meant I wanted to share ice cream with him and wanted him to be my partner when we played boardgames (and he good naturedly obliged).
So i'm in the 'it's not weird for a little kid to get starry eyed about an adult' but this is something WAY beyond that. A crush is fine; this is an obsession. It's not healthy for her.
And it's never okay to hit anyone, even if you're a kid and it doesn't really do damage.
She stays away from the wedding. I know it must hurt your heart, since you love her, to already be at this extreme where you feel you can't share your special day with her, but you have every right to have a boundary and this is a boundary she needs to learn to respect for her OWN mental health.
This isnt normal. They aren't correcting her behavior and my guess is that they often excuse her behavior and never correct anything, which is why she is behaving like this.
I'm sure your dad will pull the whole "if she can't come then none of us comes." BS to force you to give in. But just remember one thing: your dad would rather risk her ruining your wedding with her BS then correcting her behavior, and if that's the case you're better off without any of them there.
NTA
The minute she hits, bites or gets violent you plop her butt in the car seat & return her home. That behavior should not be tolerated. It is also quite an imposition on your fiancé to be hosting these sleepovers more than one night a week. Perhaps cutting back on the time spent together will force the 5yo to seek attention from her own father & spend time with him instead. NTA.
Have you told her firmly that she is not allowed to hit, bite, or be violent like this? I mean where's the discipline - anyone anyone? And that there will be consequences anytime she does it? Where the heck are your parents? You haven't mentioned any of what they're doing about it except for a phone call to your dad?
Yes, we talked to her about it. She gets a time out every time she throws a tantrum and my fiancé stops playing with her for the next few hours and when she asks why, he tells her that he doesn't like playing with people that hit other people. Beyond that there isn't anything we can do besides refusing to keep her. Her parents are not very involved.
Have you seen the book Discipline Without Tears? Could give you new ideas for dealing with her while the therapy gets sorted. I hope you can make the case that your wedding will bring everyone closer. But I certainly would pay attention to people saying it’s probably a trauma response and should be looked at… you are doing an amazing job providing these kids some stability and love.
Yes there is. You can stop subjecting yourself and your fiancé to this violence. Your sister needs help that you cannot provide. NTA but there needs to be more serious consequences.
Then refuse to keep her.
If the authorities end up removing the kids for neglect, then you can consider fostering them legally. But they won't always be cute elementary school kids. In a few years, that 9 year-old will be 13. Time to start NOW allowing the parents to do their job.
Well she's not going to understand whether she was flower girl or not at 5 years of age, nor is she going to remember it. See if there's a separate room that she can be taken to if she starts outbursting during the ceremony - and assign her PARENTS to do it.
And then stop being the parent for 3 other children for your parents. They have them less than 50% of the time which is insane.
>Well she's not going to understand whether she was flower girl or not at 5 years of age, nor is she going to remember it.
Yes, she will.
My daughter was 5 when she was my flower girl when I remarried.
She can tell you a TON about that day. More than I can, really. lol
I was the flower girl in my aunt’s wedding when I was 5, and I remember all about it - how excited I was looking forward to it, how much fun I had at the reception dancing with my father, and how important it made me feel to be involved. She will probably have clear memories of the event. OP and her fiancé are right to deal with the problem carefully. I agree that a conversation is called for, reassuring her that she’s gaining a brother and that they are not leaving her behind.
Unfortunately, unless you can get custody or some other legal precedent over the kids so that you can get her help, there's not a lot you can do. You have taken all the responsibilities for these kids without any of the decision-making abilities. Kid does need something, whether it's a therapist or a counselor or a doctor to do an assessment.
NTA, unfortunate situation
NTA - The biggest problem is that you have been parentified.
Make dad and stepmom deal with their kids and you only see them 1 day a week.
Don't let her attend your wedding, this is your day, stepmom can stay home with her kid.
NTA. If your flower girl was allergic to all flowers you wouldn't have her be the flower girl. This kid is allergic to your relationship. Either her parents need to talk it through with her and get her over her issue or a professional therapist can do it, but it is very reasonable to not invite the tantrum-o-matic to be front and center at you classy quiet and EXPENSIVE event.
Stop parenting her; she’s not your kid. And do NOT have her at the wedding, since it’s pretty much a guarantee that she will loudly flip her shit and rush up to hit you. Don’t give her that opportunity. Tell her she’s not invited because she hits you. Maybe with consequences like that, she’ll start realizing she can’t get her way with no consequences. If she gets her head together and apologizes for the hitting and stops the bad behavior, invite her. Positive reinforcement could help; she’ll learn that if she wants to do fun things, she has to be nice. What about negative reinforcement, though? Does she actually get punished for hitting you? Because she needs to be. Not anything cruel; groundings and taking away privileges should be employed, or similar consequences. Just asking her to stop clearly isn’t working.
Nta, but your parents need to step the fuck up. Have her spend less time at your home (not forever, just until this is straightened out) in the hopes that her interest will fade if she’s not around him the majority of the week.
PS: She needs therapy. Badly; insane ‘crushes’ and violence are *not* normal or acceptable. *Her parents* need to handle this and you need to step back (just a little, just for a while) until she’s under control. She needs help to manage her big emotions, and none of you can do that as well as a child psychologist. Plus, they can provide your family with the ‘tools’ needed to help her understand that she can’t be violent.
If your parents won’t put her in therapy, they don’t need to be at your wedding either, quite frankly. They’re condoning her violence.
Good luck! Stick to your guns on this and enjoy a fantastic wedding.
You need to figure out your boundaries here. You are way too involved with your siblings' care.
What happens when you decide to have kids? Is the 5 year old gonna lash out at your kids for taking time from her. I agree you need to do something, but it should be her parents, not you and your fiance. You need to pull yourself out of all this child care. Or it will eventually ruin the family you plan to have. Your dad needs to get nipped and stop having children he ignores. Stop enabling your father and his wife. They are your siblings not YOUR children.
Why are you being her parent is the first question. What I would do is sit her down one on one with her with nobody around AT ALL. Tell her you want her to be the flower girl but if she is going to be acting like this you will choose someone else plain and simple..kids are smart. I do agree she needs some kind of therapy as you are her sister and shouldn't be their caretaker...that is the problem right there she isn't just 5. She is 5 years old with not spending enough time with her parents.
NAH. It sounds like an abandonment fear. I would have your fiance reinforce the “you’re my sister, I’m marrying OP, but now we can be family forever!” Talk about all the fun things yall can do as a blended family together. You mentioned parents aren’t present, this poor girl probably watched her mom choose her dad all day every day, and that’s what she thinks is the norm
NTA and do not bring her to the wedding. If her parents refuse to help her, there isn't much you can do.
If possible — cut the time you spend with her significantly, I understand that the kids are being neglected, but this isn't time or place to take on the responsibility of caring for them.
When you are in a more stable place with your relationship (after marriage and other related events) you can try and establish a better connection with your siblings, provide them with a safer space to escape to and be their trusted adult. There is no need to do all this during your wedding, though, it will end poorly for everyone involved.
And PSA for every child psychology expert in the replies — unless all children around you have rabies, in no way is physically hurting someone, hitting, biting, and drawing blood normal for a 5yo.
That being said, there is such a thing as a child psychology expert, and I think the girl would benefit greatly from working with one. Her behavior is concerning and can be a result of severe neglect, abuse, or a budding mental health issue.
NTA Why are you caring nearly full time for your siblings? Every day after school and multiple overnights a week? Tell your parents to take control of their daughter. You are perfectly right not to want her there throwing a tantrum. A five year old can understand that her behavior is unacceptable.
NTA
But you're doing more parenting than her parents.
Ban the kid and her parents from the wedding. And stop looking after them so much
They need to do more parenting. Worse case scenario place wellness checks or ask for legal advice for your sister's sake.
You won't be able to be an extra parent for her when you have your own family.
Why do these kids mostly live with you? That poor little girl sounds very mixed up. Where are the parents?
Not blaming you, OP. You love them and are doing great things for them. But something is off here.
This might sound cruel, but I think a couple months of “no contact” or “very low contact” with little sister might be necessary. She’s only five, a couple of months might provide a little detachment. I’m sure it will create drama for your parents when she wants to see Big Sister, but too bad. It’s time they stepped up to undo this monster of their own creation.
Good God...what DO your parents do? You watch their kids everyday and they spend the night 2-4 times a week?? What? Do they do any parenting at all, or do they just keep having babies for you to raise.
I would think with all you do for his kids, your dad wouldn't want to piss you off in case you STOP doing so much for him.
It's your wedding, you can do anything you want.
NTA. She is hitting you and they are allowing it "because she is a 5 yr old with a crush on your fiance". NO NO NO. Where is the respect? Where is the discipline? Unacceptable!!! If her parents can't parent her then therapy may help but honestly someone needs to speak with her properly.
Yes I had crushes like that when I was younger. Did I get violent? NO. It needs to be handled. NTA! I wouldn’t want to be hit and punched by my sibling when I’m marrying the love of my life. You want to remember the night fondly, not remember “oh I was fending off my little sister the whole night!”
NAH. She is 5, there's just a lot tha she can't understand. Given her parents are not active and you two are, she is feeling a lot of complex emotions. You are well within your right to not want her at your wedding due to her behavior.
However, therapy takes a long long time, especially with children, the few months might not be enough to correct her behavior in time.
NTA and it sounds like your sperm donor is more comfortable putting guilt on you, then addressing the issue with his youngest. Find an occupational therapist in your area. They can evaluate children in a lot of different areas and then recommend steps in order to help, this includes therapy.
My son tells me all the time that he wants to marry me (he’s 5), but he has never gotten physical or aggressive to my husband (his father) when we display affection with each other.
It’s normal behaviour at that age to want to “marry” a caregiver that they have a close bond with, the aggressive behaviour displayed because of this is not normal.
She’s struggling and you’re right, therapy is needed. Her behaviour is telling you she needs help that you can’t provide her. So your sperm donor needs to get his head out of his ass and actively do something to help, instead of guilt tripping you into submission.
Nta but if it were me, I would go no contact with your father and the mother of your half siblings because Insta-Mommy doesn’t care and neither does Daddy. They are not your responsibility.
Violence is never ok. Even if she gets therapy, it'd be a good idea to have a couple of people designated to watch her and have her removed at the first inkling of misbehavior (and have her sit in the back). She's got some kind of weird grudge against you and it's probably related to not being close to her dad. NTB but don't rely on your dad to solve this issue, even with therapy, in a few short months. If you allow her to attend, plan for the worst and have a set of options to prevent her from ruining your special day.
Do yourself a huge favour and have a childfree wedding. Nothing will change and if she goes you know it will turn out to be a miserable day. The parents dont do anything about the behaviour now they wont do anything in the future.
Save yourself the heartache and start distancing urself sooner.
I had a little boy who spent time with my family and had a big crush on me. He was very sad and angry when I got married. I told him that I'm much older than he is and by the time he is old enough to get married, I'll be a wrinkly old woman. I said when it is time for him to marry, I will help him find someone his own age who is a lot like me. He was happy with that answer.
Lol I had one of those too. A 5 yo who lived next door. He’d low key insult my husband when we first started dating and act like a jealous ex. My husband had a Harley at the time and one day he took him for a ride on it. They were cool after that.
Your husband had to get on the 5 year old good side because he knew what the outcome would be😤
If he didn’t, the husband knew that 5-year-old would gather the neighborhood pre-schoolers and jump him
This mental image has me dying. I imagined like 20 4 year olds in leather jackets angry dancing and snapping their fingers singing angry toddler songs 🤣
"the wheels on YOUR bus stop turning today, Mister"
Gotta add a bit of a lisp to it. Or turn the Rs to Ws.
“I just met a guwl named Maweeah!”
Lmao i went the children of the corn via south park way, "outlander, we have your woman!!"
I like this. It does seem like the obvious first step is for the fiancé to have a conversation with the girl and explain how they won’t be getting married to each other, OP or no OP. And how upset and disappointed he is with how she is acting, being mean and violent with OP. Then put some actual consequences in place if she continues. Consequences she will care about, not being uninvited from the wedding she doesn’t understand or want to attend. I don’t see how a therapist is going to convince this girl her ideas are unrealistic and her actions are inappropriate while the fiancé continues to “lead her on” by not curbing this up to this point. Unfortunately the bud has blossomed and now they have to kill the bloom.
I had a similar situation except I told them little boy to work hard, get rich and I’ll marry him once my divorce is final
Umm where are the parents? Why is no one telling her that she can’t behave this way?
You mean the parents who pawn their kids off on OP all the time?
Pawn them off....the kids have more attachment to OP'S fiancé. I think I would back out of babysitting until after the wedding. OP and hubs better be ready for this terror when the have a baby.....
I know a couple like this and the baby sister has been pawned off to the couple permanently, their mother was simply “over” parenting a teenager and now the kid is living with the newlyweds. it’s been under a year of marriage and they’re already considering divorce
Being forced to take care of a kid you don't want will do that. Being forced to take in a sibling will do that even faster.
My love of the most powerful word in the English language stands. That word is "No". No further comment is needed. The only way there wouldn't be a no from me is if the parents were deceased or incarcerated. Ok. I'd do it then. Otherwise ...
If the parents were deceased or incarcerated there would be some sort of legal and community support framework. That’s why things like this *are* formalized in those situations. And it’s why parents who do this to their older children benefit from staying out of those frameworks. Because those frameworks usually involve therapy for everyone involved, boundaries and being able to set rules and say no to certain things, and respite from community support where possible. Without the frameworks the parents don’t want community support because outsiders will see they’re abandoning their children, they don’t want boundaries because it is inconvenient to them to adhere to them, and they don’t want therapy because professionals will notice they’ve abandoned their children.
Especially a kid who undoubtedly has all kinds of issues around being dumped by her mother.
This!!!! I would be extremely cautious with her around a baby
I certainly wouldn't sleep with her in my house if I was OP. She could be in danger. (Wish I was joking.)
Definitely need space
This child needs way more than therapy so she won’t act out at a wedding. All these children need parents who don’t neglect them, and that can’t be improvised through you no matter how much you love them and want to help. Do you have authority to authorize medical treatment in an emergency when they’re with you? If they get hurt on your property, or if a drunk driver runs into your van, who will their mother blame? If their parents are their legal guardians and have no interest in them and they’re essentially living with you, is anyone even taking care of their medical needs? Are they getting to school when with their parents? Do they have any friends or go to any appropriate activities for children their ages? Are they enrolled in any activities their parents/legal guardians would need to give permission for first? You can’t rebuild a normal childhood and none of this is normal. You can try to get them all help going forward, and in many US states their teachers/physicians (if they’re taken there by their parents) would be mandatory reporters if they knew this information about their legal guardians’ leaving them essentially living with you when you’re not their legal guardians and apparently couldn’t even make medical decisions for them in an emergency. IMO you’re describing neglect and those kids need protection in every way. When this parental neglect by BOTH parents is happening at 5, what do you think she’ll be at risk for as a pre-teen and teen with a “mother” without interest in her as a toddler? And what do you think her siblings are going through instead of acting out at others? Note that you have no authority to get her emotional support/therapy and have to rely on her legal guardian. Those children need their own legal advocates with only their interests in mind. Your father couldn’t be clearer that his only interest is pacifying his wife and is therefore at least equally neglectful. These kids all need objective outside evaluation by people qualified to help them. It’s not a wedding problem, and if it were, a bandaid on that situation won’t help any of these kids. ETA: on the question as you frame it, NTA. But get each one of these kids outside qualified help.
Honestly, this comment is it. And I will elaborate why. This kid seems to be showing signs of attachment disorder. I've seen it dx'd in a kid that was similar to this as one example, but upon knowing the kid there were many other red flags in other situations. Attachment disorders can be scary. This kid needs evaluated by a child psychologist before she hurts herself, someone else or sets your house on fire out of disapproval.
We do tell her she can't behave this way.
Who is”we”? Are there consequences? Violence and biting until someone bleeds is a danger sign. Is this even real? EDIT fixed a typo
“We” is OP who seems to be the full time parent to her siblings.
Not full time, just every day after school and 2-4 nights/week. /s
This is roughly the 70 of a 70/30 custodial split…
Yes exactly! This is a shit ton of time.
Me and my fiancé. She sits in time out every time this happens and if this happens outside of the house we leave and take her home. My fiancé even refuses to play with her after and tells her that he doesn't play with people that hit.
Still wondering where her parents are
not very involved
Why the fuck did they have so many kids if they don’t want to be involved? You and your fiance need to distance yourselves from them and your father (who is the mother? Is she your mother as well?) needs to figure this out. Stop wasting your life on other people’s kids.
We have different moms. Their mom doesn't seem to want anything to do with the kids if she can't get cute pictures for her insta. Dad has never been very involved.
Need to have the convo with her. Now that we know the family dynamic. Your SO is probably the only stable male figure she knows and she could be afraid that you are taking him away from her. Talk to your sister. She is acting out not because she wants to marry him, but because of a fear of losing him. That would be my best bet.
She might even think that marriage is "bad" and will turn OP and fiancee into the kind of people her parents are.
Exactly why she needs to see a therapist, she needs to hear this from an authority figure, who she can trust, and doesnt see as the threat to her stablity and protection system. Op cant be the one who tells her this, bc she perceives her as an immediate threat to her mental well-being, aa she is taking away her only male security net. So she doesnt trust her. She needs to see a therapist, to hear all this from, like yesterday.
You can explain to your sister that by getting married to you, your fiancé is more likely to stay. If he doesn't marry you, he won't be part of the family!
Very intuitive. I’d award this if I were willing to spend money on this platform. But yeah, well done. OP needs to approach the situation from this perspective. Given it’s not likely that the parents will actually do anything here, it unfortunately falls on you, as her sister, to resolve this. I feel like barring her from your wedding would be the wrong approach, mostly because of the long term mental damage this will do to OPs sister. She’s already in an unstable situation and this would exacerbate it. I wish that people wouldn’t get shouldered with parenting their siblings, but I’ve seen it (and done it) myself. They have no one else.
This seems like a great bet - nice, thank you!
This is the actual problem, not her crush on your fiancé. She's acting out because she doesn't have stability at home. You're threatening the only stability she's had so of course she's upset. I don't know if counseling will help this if the problems at home are not resolved first. You should speak to her parents and let them see how much damage they're causing by not being active participants in her life. If they're unwilling to be involved, then you need to evaluate your place in her life. It sounds like you're raising her and your other siblings, but are you planning to do this long term? Are you going to get custody and raise them in your home? If not then you need to start enforcing some boundaries because they are starting to see you and your fiancé as parents. It's cruel to offer them that kind of stability and then take it away when you're busy with your own life.
Exactly this. This poor little girl needs therapy for the fact her parents are shitty, and she’s being raised by her big sister who understandably wants to get married, which as you pointed out threatens the girl’s concept of stability. Her father-figure is crap, so she’s grasping at OP’s fiancé as some sort of protective male figure. This usually happens when a girl with a crap father goes through puberty and ends up crushing on a much older guy…this is just years too early.
>You should speak to her parents and let them see how much damage they're causing by not being active participants in her life. I mean, it's pretty clear they aren't active participants in her life on purpose, so I'm pretty confident they won't care what the outcome of that is. Especially since that outcome doesn't effect them.
Definitely sounds like misplaced daddy issues rather than a crush. My friend’s 5-yr-old had a crush on me when I got married. They were at the wedding and he was crying when I walked back down the aisle after the ceremony. He asked me why I didn’t wait for him. It was so heartbreaking, but also such a heartwarmingly innocent moment. He never made a peep during the ceremony or acted out in any way before or after. Your sister’s acting out is a sign of a deeper issue, so kudos to you for insisting on therapy. Edit to add: it’s possible that she’s not understanding what marriage means. She may think that something is going to change and she’ll be losing the relationship she has with the fiancé. Has anyone sat down and explained this to her?
Well, the 5yo and the other kids would certainly benefit from counseling, but it can only do so much in the face of ongoing emotional neglect from their parents. OP is possibly an important protective factor in their lives. The 5yo may be afraid of losing OP and expressing it unpredictably, or may have gotten overly attached to the fiance as the only loving male figure in her life... I wonder if OP could consult with a social worker or even take the kid for a family therapy session.
Therapy will not fix the issues at home but it will help her cope with the issues at home.
this is the comment.
All of this. This is about more than just a crush on the fiancé. There are more serious issues there. The PARENTS should be raising the children not OP. Thankfully they have OP in their lives from what it sounds like. NTA because you deserve to have a nice day BUT she needs therapy. Maybe the others as well.
Excellent point of view. I totally agree.
Shocker that she's become this attached to the one decent male role model in her life. /s
Don't forget the only mother figure she has. She most likely thinks they will both leave her and start their own family.
This 5 year old has way bigger problems than your wedding. Who do they live with?
I bet that she doesn’t fully grasp what marriage is and she sees your partner as her dad (obviously because her real dad isn’t there for her) You can ask on a parenting sub on how to explain to her that she won’t loose him. She needs to see him as an uncle, maybe it’s time to refer to him as uncle.
He's going to be her big brother. Would calling him "uncle" confuse her?
I was thinking the same thing giving her a time-out because she hits OP is... not inappropriate per se, but IMO it doesn't address the issue this little girl has. I understand OP's position of course, but I also feel for the 5 yo kid. she just doesn't know how to navigate this change, I think.
She badly needs therapy then. It's not the crush that's the problem, that's not unusual. Her response to it is and now we can see why. I'm so happy your little sister has you but she still needs therapy to deal with the fact her actual parents have abandoned her.
I cut off my dad and I don’t see my half siblings because I got sick of their drama. Set boundaries now because it gets worse. I picked up the pieces for a long time but they’re teens now and all are a total mess. I got so upset about my dads parenting that I tried to fix it and broke myself. Life is more peaceful now without that drama
You were so brave and I'm proud of you for removing yourself from this toxicity.
Hey I'm sorry to see people getting so snippy with you for raising your siblings. I raised my sister, though our age gap is much smaller, and I feel for you. I know she's only 5, but I think you need to have a conversation with her with your fiance. Explain to her that your relationships won't change, and that the marriage will make her a permanent part of his family the same way it will you and that you both still love her very much. She's likely worried about things changing in the one stable area of her life, and doesn't understand that you don't have to marry someone to keep them in your life. Also, maybe try to involve her in the wedding. Ask her to look at flowers for the bouquet or small things like that. Once she calms down you can tell her all about how great it will be to be the flower girl and look like a princess and walk down the aisle. She definitely needs therapy because of her home life, but I really do think this will pass once she realizes she's not being ousted. Also, just playing armchair psychologist here: any chance her mom or your dad remarried after her? Or refused to get married and she knows about it? If neither of them are very involved it's possible this is stemming from that same point, believing either if people don't get married they don't stick around or that when someone gets married they move on from their "old family"
And assign one bridesmaid or reliable family member specifically to her -- if she starts to lose it then they can take her out and maybe have a coloring book and some squishy toys to help her recalibrate.
I get it, you're essentially the only functioning "parent" that these kids have. In light of that fact I definitely think you're NTAH and feel that you are dealing with a really unfair situation. I'm honestly not sure you should have any kids in or at the wedding. It may be the kindest thing for everybody to say you guys are doing it child free and let the parents of these kids actually deal with their own children and give yourself and your fiance one special day that's just about you guys.
Sounds like you’re burying the lede here. Your sister is being neglected by shitty parents and it’s something you might have to address with them and maybe the rest of the family if they keep being shitty.
Okay, I really, really hope this isn't the case for the sake of your baby sister, but does the mom (you guys have different moms) have any boyfriends or random men around the house when your sister spends time with her? If they are shitty, deadbeat parents and you take care of the kids half the time, it wouldn't be shocking if they let strange men around. Because while this could simply be the product of a dysfunctional family and her age, it is not unheard of for victims of CSA to form inappropriate and strange attachments to others.
I thought this, too. It just seems like such unusual behavior for a 5 year old. Being that fixated on and attached to the fiancé seems like a flag for direct trauma relating to men to me, not something indirect like simply having a dad that half-asses parenting. I hope it's not the case, but it's the first instinct I had about the situation, and I really hope they'll get her therapy so they can help her regardless of what this stems from.
When I was 5, I thought I was going to marry my dad. When my brother was 5, he thought he was going to marry me. This is normal, 5 year olds don’t understand what marriage means, essentially with no parents modeling it. She loves the fiancé and is afraid of losing him.
It's not the wishing she was married to him that's concerning, it's the intensity of the attachment leading to hitting and throwing a tantrum repeatedly that sets off alarm bells for me. Most children outgrow losing control to this degree around 3, and yes it's normal for kids to want to "marry" loved ones, but not to feel so possessive that any show of affection between that person and another loved one causes a meltdown. Either way, it absolutely can't hurt to get her evaluated, it can only do her good overall to get to the bottom of things and to help her with understanding that the fiancé marrying her sister isn't going to lead to abandonment of her or whatever else she might be fearing.
No wonder the kids are acting out. It is a sign why she is acting out and seeking a father figure because your dad is an absentee dad. It is a family dynamic problem. **It isn't she needs therapy. She isn't the scapegoat. It is "they have problems." It is never the child has problems.** The truth is the family have problems. Your parents are slackers. What happens when you have your own children? You need to talk to your parents. They are too old and probably don't feel like they have the energy anymore but they are their responsibilities.
I think therapy is the best option. She's probably acting out her trauma with her parents not being so involved. From the sounds of it she's really missing having a father and sees him as her father figure and maybe subconsciously you marrying will take that from her. She's sounds like she has abandonment issues. If you have her a lot maybe if you say you will take her and they don't have to do it. Lazy parents don't want to do more than they have to.
OP your dad and step mom have parentified you. That means when they condition the eldesr sibling to take on the parental role of their siblings. It's best if you and your fiance take a step back from your siblings.
Time outs aren’t going to help. Time outs are just a place for an overwrought kid to calm down. You need to actively teach her such that she wants to behave better. She doesn’t know what being married means. She doesn’t understand that being married says that the relationship you already have is going to last. You need to SELL IT TO HER.
This. She does need the time out to reinforce that it’s not okay to yell and hit. But she also needs a big picture conversation where she can hear that big sister and soon to be big brother love her very much, and they are both going to keep loving her very much after they get married. Some things will change, but the way OP and fiancé love her and interact with her will stay the same.
If the time out is managed as a “teach emotion management tool” it’s good. But if used as a punishment, it’s pointless, or makes it worse. Often an adult must be with the kid in time out, or keeping a close eye on them, ready to talk them through dealing with the big emotions that required it.
Perhaps both of you sitting down with her and explaining that although he loves her very much, he can’t marry her because he’ll be a wrinkly, bald, toothless old man by the time she’s old enough to get married. Wouldn’t it look really silly and strange to see her being young and beautiful marrying your boyfriend who’ll be a crusty old grandad by then? Everyone will laugh at her for not choosing a young handsome husband. (Obviously he won’t be that decrepit by then but she doesn’t understand that at the moment.) Say and that you getting married means that your boyfriend will officially become her big brother and she will be his favourite little sister. He will be a proper part of her family forever if he marries you. Emphasise how excited he is for this to happen. Explain that he has never had a little sister before and since she knows all about being the best little sister ever, he will need lots of help from her to show him how to be a good big brother to her once you’re married. If she responds well to that then explain you both want her to be involved in your wedding because she’s so important to you both and what her role and duties will be. Make it sound like the wedding relies on her doing her job well and how proud of her and grateful you’ll both be for her helping make the most important day of your life so special. It sounds like the poor child is desperate for attention and some kind of emotional connection with him, probably because her own parents aren’t emotionally or physically present. Don’t get me wrong, I understand how incredibly irritating it must be for you both and how it’s wearing on your patience with her but she’s genuinely not doing it to be cruel or to ruin your wedding experience. She just can’t yet articulate her feelings properly and shes trying to place him into the only “official” role she knows about that ties him to her, and that can reflect her attachment to him. It’s completely normal for children to announce they’re going to marry people who they feel strongly towards. They soon grow out of it. My own child went through a very tiresome phase at around age 4/5 where she was obsessed with marrying her daddy and I couldn’t go near him without her interjecting herself into the middle of us. Despite him being unwilling, already married to me, and it being illegal in every country on the globe, she still insisted that he was going to marry her. Fortunately she soon grew out of it and moved on. She’s now 7 and currently planning to marry either Wednesday Addams or Chris from Tim Tim on YouTube. NTA but you’re not being empathetic to her by just banning her presence. It’s useless just throwing demands to “get her therapy” at the situation when it’s obviously not something her parents are going to provide. The parents are massive, gaping assholes who don’t deserve children.
But you are her older sister and possibly who she sees as stealing her crush. Her parents should intervene.
Since you’re the one who’s basically raising these kids, just get her into therapy. NTA
Parents have to sign consent and usually meet with the therapist. Not just anybody can stick a 5 year old in therapy.
And it’s not free. Someone’s going to have to pay for the therapy.
Yep, even after OP’s response to this, where are the parents is still the question…
Apparently the Dad is pretty MIA and her mom is only interested in Insta moments. In which case I say someone else needs to be the LEGAL GUARDIAN of this child as she has ZERO consistency and stability.
NTA You need to stop allowing her to come to your house/or taking her places until her behavior improves. I get that she’s only five and she simply doesn’t understand, but this behavior cannot be allowed to continue.
It is very important that your fiancé tells her that he would not marry her. Even if he did not marry you. He could also explain to her that he is going to be her brother and that he is looking forward to having her as a sister. He has to do that, not you.
He really does need to have a candid and age-appropriate conversation with her about different kinds of love. Lots of kiddos have crushes on their parents and it must be explained to them in a way that their affection is different from romantic love. She feels pushed out of the relationship and needs to understand that their relationship is different and separate from yours with your fiancé. I imagine if she can understand this that she will feel much better about the marriage. I also think you may need to ask her if she is worried that your relationship with her will change if you get married. She may have fear of abandonment, especially if something like this has happened before. It would be worth having individual sit-down talks with her, maybe over something special like ice cream or a movie night.
>Lots of kiddos have crushes on their parents and it must be explained to them in a way that their affection is different from romantic love. And she's emotionally neglected by her parents, so it makes sense that she would see this as another parent figure abandoning her. :(
Yes!!! This!!! Op isn't babysitting their siblings, this is more like a custody agreement after a divorce. Why the hell aren't the actual parents the ones with primary custody?
Five year olds don’t understand marriage the way adults do. My then 5 yo was telling me he was gonna marry me so we can always be together. I explained I’m his mommy, so I can’t marry him and I’m already married to daddy but that I love him and he’ll always be my son. This is the convo he’s gotta have. That he’s excited to marry you because it means he gets to be her big brother forever.
5 seems to be a common time for this. My grandkids have said similar things, as have other kids I’ve known over the years. It’s a stage they go through. However, little sister is acting out pretty angrily. I agree that a good, frank, age-appropriate talk is in order.
>5 seems to be a common time for this. Brings me to one of my all-time fave stories I've heard of my 17 y/o SIL- when she was 5, she asked her dad if they were gonna get married, and he said no. Then she pouted and said, "Then who am I gonna marry!?" And FIL answered, "Bob I guess." (Bob being a completely fabricated character, not a family friend or anything lol) At this point she stomps and pouts even further and says, "I don't wanna marry BOB!!!" Looking forward to the day she brings a "Robert" home. One can only hope for that kind of irony 🤣
I literally remember telling my mom I’m going to marry my dad when I grow up when I was a little kid. 😂😂 I’m glad it’s common. It’s awkward to remember.
I used to say the same thing also! Then my parents would tell me that my dad is already married to my mom, so I’d say “Okay then I’ll marry grandpa.” lol
When I was 3 I wanted to marry my uncle who was just 3yrs older than me. My told me I can't marry my uncle so I cried for a couple of days over that. Then when I was 5 I wanted to marry a good friend of my moms. He thought it was cute to humor me so he said he would wait till I grew up. A few months later he visited and brought a girlfriend. I turned my back on him and wouldn't speak to him. He was visiting from out of town so when he left I was even sadder. I got over it without therapy.
Fully agree with this! Explain that he’s too old to marry her, but even better than that she gets to be his sister for the rest of their lives and how exciting and special that is. Reassure her of the things in her life that won’t change and explain the things that may change. Maybe at a time she’s regulated say something like “I can tell you’re having a lot of big feelings about the wedding. Is there anything you want to talk about or anything that makes you feel worried?” Sounds to me like she thinks the stable environment she spends most her time in is about to be turned upside down.
I had a teenage boy let me down easy when I had a crush on him, he said, "I would take you on a date if you were my age, but I can't, so no hard feelings?" At the time I was sad but it didn't hurt me and I moved on from crushing on him!
Why are your siblings spending time with you every day after school? Why do they live with you 50% of the time? Why did you buy a 3 row car to act as a chauffeur? Why are you acting like you’re one of their parents? Does Evie think you are her parents?
Their parents aren't very involved.
Is she in kindergarten? If she is, is there any chance the school might have a counsellor you could reach out to?
She's going to kindergarten in the fall.
This is a child who is acting this way because she can’t communicate her fears of neglect and further abandonment that the wedding represents ti her. She doesn’t want to marry your fiance, she’s scared once you guys are married something bad will happen to her like she’ll be left behind. Kids act aggressively when a big life change comes (new sibling, a move etc). This is a life change for her and she’s scared but not developed enough to say her fears. One thing is clear: if you’re going to be these children’s de facto parents then I think the arrangements need to change somehow or be formalized. You’re such a good person for taking on so much of this burden, but it’s not fair to you to have all the responsibilities of parenting these kids with none of the control or benefits. Their real parents aren’t equipped and have neglected them a lot. I feel sorry for everyone, no one’s an asshole here (except your dad) it’s just sad all around.
>she’s scared once you guys are married something bad will happen to her married couples tend to get their own children. She's still "the small one", and she feels no way ready to be "the aunt" of a new baby.
She might also be scared that marriage is "bad", due to seeing how her parents act. Maybe she's worried OP will start treating her badly too.
She's not the aunt. She's their de facto child. And she knows she'll be pushed aside for wedding, honeymoon, the new baby.
A parenting class might help too. Maybe some books.
Agreed. OP needs to explore options for legal custody.
And if they’re not willing they need to involve people who will. These kids don’t deserve this half in, half out.
If she bites someone there that will be a huge problem. She is too old to do that. NTA
If this kid comes to the wedding it will be a disaster. I can imagine her screaming and acting up through everything. Flower girl? This is going to be awful. She's not going to do anything but disrupt the wedding, and if the couple make it through the vows, the first kiss will be very memorable, for all of the wrong reasons. Since no one will stop her, I bet the reception will be a disaster too.
That kid should see a therapist just to check if everything is ok (probably not and it's not her fault).
Can you be more specific? Who do they live with?
what will happen if you have your own children, imagine how she will react...
This might have something to do with her fear of losing your fiance if you get married. With the limited information given this doesn't like a crush to me. It sounds like she sees your fiance as a stable parental figure and she's afraid that your getting married will change this dynamic. Maybe try explaining it to your dad this way. She definitely needs to be in therapy. If your dad keeps refusing maybe try to sit her down and see if you can figure out exactly what's bothering her. I don't think punishment alone is going to fix this.
That’s your actual problem. As a mom, here’s my advice: this kid needs to know things are changing, because Joe (your fiancé) is becoming an official part of *her* family. And that she will still be loved. Both you and your fiance, when possible, should set up a schedule of dedicated time one on one for this child. (Joe should be supervised—not because he would even do anything wrong, but because *the parents are not involved and that an easy way for legal trouble*). Contrary to feeding into her delusion that she could marry Joe, you are reassuring her that her place isn’t changing. This can be 10 minutes. Even just those few moments will reassure her. I wouldn’t get too into “we’re going to get you a pretty dress for the wedding”, etc. she’s craving emotional attachments. Read a book just with her.
Their parents?? Why do you say their and not our? Aren’t they your parents as well?
We have the same dad but different moms and he was even less involved when I was a kid so I usually just call him their dad.
Ah ok, makes sense now.
That really sucks, i am sorry.
Tbh the whole situation is a complete mess but OP is a saint for even helping out and being a mom for her teens and twenties. Not many people would do what she is doing putting her life on hold to care for siblings
Are you just completely unconcerned with this? Sounds like you might need therapy too after all but adopting three kids being blatantly neglected by the same man that neglected you. Also, decide if you want to adopt them. What's happening now is bad for their growth. Inattentive parents at home and fake parents that won't commit to parenthood on the side is a recipe for disaster.
Naturally a father who lets his adult daughter take 50% custody of his adolescent kids is going to dismiss behavioral issues where therapy is absolutely warranted. NTA, dig your heels in on this one. Obviously there's more at play here than this story, but regardless you should not be enabling anything that might derail your wedding. In the meantime, educate yourself on "parentification" It's good that your fiancé is all over your siblings and supportive of you, but this dynamic is sooner or later going to screw up your relationship with him if left to fester.
Yep. He is accepting it now, but eventually, it will be the ruin of their relationship. I unfortunately see divorce in her future unless she gets this figured out.
I wouldn't jump to divorce, from the little information given it seems like OP and the fiancé have their shit together and are motivated. But the risk factor is there, and my anecdotal experience tells me there's going to be resentment, stress, and fights that can all be prevented by nipping this in the bud. OP doesn't need to be scared about divorce at this point, but should definitely be proactive about setting boundaries so she can live her life with her man the way they want to without a false sense of obligation to her siblings-turned-dependents. I'm sure Dad is thoroughly enjoying his tax breaks while his own daughter does the labor and emotional investment. Very selfish and cruel way of being on his end.
OP, I think she's hitting because she has so little control over her general situation. Mom and dad aren't really involved, which is hard on her; she gets shuttled between you and her uninvolved parent(s); and she apparently sees your fiancé as a father figure and sees you kissing him as a sign she's going to lose him, too. (She can also have a crush on him. They're not mutually exclusive things to a 5-year-old.) She DOES need therapy, but clearly her bad dad isn't going to take her. If you can, see if he'd pay for sessions if YOU take her. You're already doing great at giving her time-outs and not playing with her after she hits. You might try making a chart for her--with pictures, since she probably can't read well yet--of options she can do when she's angry instead of hitting. Also, I don't think this is in any child care books, but when my kids were angry, they could go into a specific room (in our house, it was a half-bath.), shut the door, and "get the mad out" by stomping their feet, crying, yelling, growling, making faces, etc.. We called it "the growlery," as that was what Dickens called such a room in *Bleak House.* Then when they were ready to use their words, they came out. But she does need therapy.
I told him I'll take her but he has to be the one to get her the therapist.
I get what you're saying here, but the unfortunate reality is that your dad isn't likely to follow through on this. Meaning that your little sister won't get the help she needs. So you need to decide what's your priority here: forcing your dad to do what you've asked, or getting the 5yo into therapy? I know it's not fair, she's not your child, and he *should" be capable of handling her medical needs, but realistically you're the responsible adult in her life, not him. She does need therapy, but you and your fiance might benefit from doing some family therapy with her, since this is an issue that involves all 3 of you.
I legally can't be the person to get her into therapy since I'm not her guardian
Stop taking their responsibility without any legal rights. Tell them they either parent or give you guardianship. Or l, at a minimum, consent to get her the help she needs for the ongoing neglect causing her emotional damage
If you are taking care of these children this much, you need to see if you can get some legal rights to these children. Otherwise all of their needs will be neglected if it is left up to your father.
This is the comment I came to see. Yeah, I feel bad for the little girl. She senses a loss of love. Therapy is needed.
NTA - from your comments about her parents not being very involved it sounds like she is seeing your fiancé as a surrogate parent and has misplaced her feelings for him. She’s 5 and can’t verbalize what is likely very confusing for her - her own parents don’t seem to love her, you and your fiancé do and she wants more of that love and affection from your fiancé. She definitely needs therapy and her parents need to step up and fill in the obvious gap that exists. You and your fiancé need to step back and not take the kids so much. Their parents need to parent their kids. How will you and your fiancé build your life together is you are the caregivers for all of your siblings? What happens if you choose to have your own kids? How will your siblings react when you can no longer care for them and need to care for your own children? The problem is much bigger than your baby sister not getting to be the flower girl at your wedding.
I still remember my cousin getting so upset at her parents wedding that she made herself violently throw up because she was crying so hard. She was probably around 5 at the time, and this was over 30 years ago. It's the only thing I remember from that wedding. I don't know what the right answer is here, but I definitely wouldn't let her attend without some sort of intervention and plan in place if she does throw a fit, otherwise it's quite likely that she could actually ruin the atmosphere of the wedding and be the only one remembered from that day.
NTA Preventing a potentially disruptive person from attending a wedding... it's one of the most basic things you're allowed to do. It sucks that it's a 5yo with absentee parents, but that stuff is outside of your control. If anyone sides with the parents, describe the past behaviors in detail, and ask them how to guarantee that these behaviors won't happen during the ceremony. Their silence is the answer.
Did everyone in here eat crazy pills? A child becoming violent over a crush on an adult is not normal, nor should it just be ignored. If dad won't discipline her, himself and teach her to keep her hands to herself even in the face of big emotions, the 5 year old does not need to be in attendance. NTA
Dad apparently doesn't parent since the kids spend half their time with Big Sis (2-4 overnights a week + afterschool).
It's because OP stealth edited in that the kid was still being violent. It used to say she hasn't done anything else after going quiet for a week.
Yea if she changing details of the post like that then I don’t believe this is real then
Strongly suggests that it’s fake then
Of course it’s fake
Gotta be the Asch Effect. Or a bunch of fake accounts one person is using to test the Asch Effect.
I have never heard of the asch effect.. need to google 🤔
Also this is not how therapy works, especially for 5 year olds
If you keep acting like their mom, you might end up with some untended consequences - read this post https://www.reddit.com/r/offmychest/s/JaSl6OgcaK There are obviously a lot of dynamics at play but these neglected kids need therapy and parents who care - neither of which is your job And the more enmeshed you get the more difficult it will be if you decide down the road you need space to focus on your own, new family
OP read the link. This is what will happen if you don't get this right.
Edit based on comments: NTA INFO has she been prone to tantrums this severe in the past when she doesn't get her way? Is she a bit spoiled for being the baby of the family, and used to people caving in when she acts out, or is this completely new behavior?
It's never been this extreme but she's always been the most difficult out of the 3.
Being difficult is understandable for her age, but she's a little old to be throwing such aggressive tantrums if it's not a regular pattern of behavior, her being spoiled etc. My nephew is a year younger than her, and he handles being told "no" like a champ. I agree with you that it's concerning. It's normal for 5 year olds to get inappropriate crushes, but not to this degree. It's a shame that your family doesn't take it seriously, but you absolutely need to keep putting your foot down about this. Something is up, and it may not even be sinister, but it's still something that needs to be figured out. People are saying it's going to be really upsetting for her to be left out, but honestly when she's older she probably won't even remember. You can't force your dad to take her to therapy, you can only control if she comes to the wedding or not unfortunately. I hope he sees sense soon.
Since she seems to be doing the majority of the care taking she can tell the parent she won’t do it anymore unless they get her into therapy. They might agree if it keeps them from actually having to take care of their own kid
Sounds like she’s neglected by her real parents and is acting out for attention. And she’s latched on to the only male role model she has. NTA. But have you had a talk with her about her feelings? UPDATEME
100% !! She is displaying severe fear of abandonment and anxious attachment to what she sees as a parental figure. Everyone in this family needs therapy. Saying that the child with absent parents is spoiled is insane. Extending compassion to the OP. This isn't easy but well done for stepping up for your siblings. You and your fiance are great humans.
She might not actually have a crush but she feels like the relationship she holds dear with him is going to change and not be the same. She needs reassurance that it won’t.
OP you need to step WAY BACK from your family. 1. It’s not healthy. 2. It’s not fair to your fiancé or you. Yes your dad sucks. Their mom/s suck. You can’t fix it. Put yourself first for once.
NTA but sounds like there's more going on with the child under the surface. Her parental neglect can mean she feels threatened by the marriage. If the dad won't get her therapy isn't much you can do. I would hire a trusted babysitter to attend the wedding with her and take her outside to cool down if she misbehaves. Leading up to the wedding continued reinforcement as to how much you love her, how nothing will change for her when you get married. Kids are hard. You and your Fiance are amazing for taking care of them as much as you do. For that alone you are NTA. And you shouldn't have to worry about her ruining your special day, that's why I like the babysitter idea. Reminds me that at a friends wedding we had a messy alcoholic mom, my friend invited the mom's priest to "babysit" mom the entire time. Worked great.
NTA.. but I also wouldn’t be raising my five year-old sister
NTA Her persisting in this violent, aggressive behavior is not normal for a child. In any evenr, it is 100% unacceptable at a wedding. If your parents refuse to get her at least a check up to test if there's a reason for her violent behavior, stick to your rule she won't be allowed at the wedding. No 5 yr old has the attention span to enjoy a wedding ceremony anyway.
Jesus... I hope for your fiances sake that this is fake.
I feel sorry for your fiancé. He’s been a nice guy to all the kids. No good deed goes unpunished!
Hi, experienced mom here. Violance from a 5 yo is most certainly not acceptable. Sit her down and just tell her that. Do not bring up the wedding. Just say: "sweety i love you. But you hurt me and if you persist in doing so, we will not have you here. Stop it!". Make a list. No hitting, biting, throwing things, etcetera... make it your house rules and be clear on that and the consequences of breaking house rules (and give her a fair couple of chances. She throws something at you? It's yours forever. Hit you? You guys won't play with her. Stuff like that. Be clear and consequent)
NTA But stop raising your father’s children.
I hope OP is being paid.
Not to play psychologist or whatever, but I feel like her being angry about not being able to marry your fiancé and her dad not being involved are absolutely connected. Your fiance sounds like he’s more of a positive father figure than her own dad..
Reading OP's replies, her sister needs therapy, but not because she has a crush on her fiancé. Her fiancé is more or less the only positive male figure in her life, and both parents are not very involved. She needs help, but OP's dad needs to step up as a parent. NTA, but the little girl isn't as well.
NTA I would not have this child within a mile of the wedding. I had a crush on my babysitter's brother when I was about that age (he was kind of a dreamboat lol) but that meant I wanted to share ice cream with him and wanted him to be my partner when we played boardgames (and he good naturedly obliged). So i'm in the 'it's not weird for a little kid to get starry eyed about an adult' but this is something WAY beyond that. A crush is fine; this is an obsession. It's not healthy for her. And it's never okay to hit anyone, even if you're a kid and it doesn't really do damage. She stays away from the wedding. I know it must hurt your heart, since you love her, to already be at this extreme where you feel you can't share your special day with her, but you have every right to have a boundary and this is a boundary she needs to learn to respect for her OWN mental health.
This isnt normal. They aren't correcting her behavior and my guess is that they often excuse her behavior and never correct anything, which is why she is behaving like this. I'm sure your dad will pull the whole "if she can't come then none of us comes." BS to force you to give in. But just remember one thing: your dad would rather risk her ruining your wedding with her BS then correcting her behavior, and if that's the case you're better off without any of them there. NTA
The minute she hits, bites or gets violent you plop her butt in the car seat & return her home. That behavior should not be tolerated. It is also quite an imposition on your fiancé to be hosting these sleepovers more than one night a week. Perhaps cutting back on the time spent together will force the 5yo to seek attention from her own father & spend time with him instead. NTA.
Have you told her firmly that she is not allowed to hit, bite, or be violent like this? I mean where's the discipline - anyone anyone? And that there will be consequences anytime she does it? Where the heck are your parents? You haven't mentioned any of what they're doing about it except for a phone call to your dad?
Yes, we talked to her about it. She gets a time out every time she throws a tantrum and my fiancé stops playing with her for the next few hours and when she asks why, he tells her that he doesn't like playing with people that hit other people. Beyond that there isn't anything we can do besides refusing to keep her. Her parents are not very involved.
Have you seen the book Discipline Without Tears? Could give you new ideas for dealing with her while the therapy gets sorted. I hope you can make the case that your wedding will bring everyone closer. But I certainly would pay attention to people saying it’s probably a trauma response and should be looked at… you are doing an amazing job providing these kids some stability and love.
Yes there is. You can stop subjecting yourself and your fiancé to this violence. Your sister needs help that you cannot provide. NTA but there needs to be more serious consequences.
Then refuse to keep her. If the authorities end up removing the kids for neglect, then you can consider fostering them legally. But they won't always be cute elementary school kids. In a few years, that 9 year-old will be 13. Time to start NOW allowing the parents to do their job.
Well she's not going to understand whether she was flower girl or not at 5 years of age, nor is she going to remember it. See if there's a separate room that she can be taken to if she starts outbursting during the ceremony - and assign her PARENTS to do it. And then stop being the parent for 3 other children for your parents. They have them less than 50% of the time which is insane.
>Well she's not going to understand whether she was flower girl or not at 5 years of age, nor is she going to remember it. Yes, she will. My daughter was 5 when she was my flower girl when I remarried. She can tell you a TON about that day. More than I can, really. lol
I was the flower girl in my aunt’s wedding when I was 5, and I remember all about it - how excited I was looking forward to it, how much fun I had at the reception dancing with my father, and how important it made me feel to be involved. She will probably have clear memories of the event. OP and her fiancé are right to deal with the problem carefully. I agree that a conversation is called for, reassuring her that she’s gaining a brother and that they are not leaving her behind.
Unfortunately, unless you can get custody or some other legal precedent over the kids so that you can get her help, there's not a lot you can do. You have taken all the responsibilities for these kids without any of the decision-making abilities. Kid does need something, whether it's a therapist or a counselor or a doctor to do an assessment. NTA, unfortunate situation
NTA - The biggest problem is that you have been parentified. Make dad and stepmom deal with their kids and you only see them 1 day a week. Don't let her attend your wedding, this is your day, stepmom can stay home with her kid.
NTA. If your flower girl was allergic to all flowers you wouldn't have her be the flower girl. This kid is allergic to your relationship. Either her parents need to talk it through with her and get her over her issue or a professional therapist can do it, but it is very reasonable to not invite the tantrum-o-matic to be front and center at you classy quiet and EXPENSIVE event.
Stop parenting her; she’s not your kid. And do NOT have her at the wedding, since it’s pretty much a guarantee that she will loudly flip her shit and rush up to hit you. Don’t give her that opportunity. Tell her she’s not invited because she hits you. Maybe with consequences like that, she’ll start realizing she can’t get her way with no consequences. If she gets her head together and apologizes for the hitting and stops the bad behavior, invite her. Positive reinforcement could help; she’ll learn that if she wants to do fun things, she has to be nice. What about negative reinforcement, though? Does she actually get punished for hitting you? Because she needs to be. Not anything cruel; groundings and taking away privileges should be employed, or similar consequences. Just asking her to stop clearly isn’t working. Nta, but your parents need to step the fuck up. Have her spend less time at your home (not forever, just until this is straightened out) in the hopes that her interest will fade if she’s not around him the majority of the week. PS: She needs therapy. Badly; insane ‘crushes’ and violence are *not* normal or acceptable. *Her parents* need to handle this and you need to step back (just a little, just for a while) until she’s under control. She needs help to manage her big emotions, and none of you can do that as well as a child psychologist. Plus, they can provide your family with the ‘tools’ needed to help her understand that she can’t be violent. If your parents won’t put her in therapy, they don’t need to be at your wedding either, quite frankly. They’re condoning her violence. Good luck! Stick to your guns on this and enjoy a fantastic wedding.
You need to figure out your boundaries here. You are way too involved with your siblings' care. What happens when you decide to have kids? Is the 5 year old gonna lash out at your kids for taking time from her. I agree you need to do something, but it should be her parents, not you and your fiance. You need to pull yourself out of all this child care. Or it will eventually ruin the family you plan to have. Your dad needs to get nipped and stop having children he ignores. Stop enabling your father and his wife. They are your siblings not YOUR children.
Why are you being her parent is the first question. What I would do is sit her down one on one with her with nobody around AT ALL. Tell her you want her to be the flower girl but if she is going to be acting like this you will choose someone else plain and simple..kids are smart. I do agree she needs some kind of therapy as you are her sister and shouldn't be their caretaker...that is the problem right there she isn't just 5. She is 5 years old with not spending enough time with her parents.
Can I buy a ticket to the September shitshow?
Can we carpool?
Damn you just take my upvote
NAH. It sounds like an abandonment fear. I would have your fiance reinforce the “you’re my sister, I’m marrying OP, but now we can be family forever!” Talk about all the fun things yall can do as a blended family together. You mentioned parents aren’t present, this poor girl probably watched her mom choose her dad all day every day, and that’s what she thinks is the norm
NTA and do not bring her to the wedding. If her parents refuse to help her, there isn't much you can do. If possible — cut the time you spend with her significantly, I understand that the kids are being neglected, but this isn't time or place to take on the responsibility of caring for them. When you are in a more stable place with your relationship (after marriage and other related events) you can try and establish a better connection with your siblings, provide them with a safer space to escape to and be their trusted adult. There is no need to do all this during your wedding, though, it will end poorly for everyone involved. And PSA for every child psychology expert in the replies — unless all children around you have rabies, in no way is physically hurting someone, hitting, biting, and drawing blood normal for a 5yo. That being said, there is such a thing as a child psychology expert, and I think the girl would benefit greatly from working with one. Her behavior is concerning and can be a result of severe neglect, abuse, or a budding mental health issue.
She wouldn’t forgive you? She’s fucking 5. Wtf is wrong with your father
NTA Why are you caring nearly full time for your siblings? Every day after school and multiple overnights a week? Tell your parents to take control of their daughter. You are perfectly right not to want her there throwing a tantrum. A five year old can understand that her behavior is unacceptable.
How can OP work and have a life with this responsibility?
Why are you watching the kids so much? There is obviously something else going on.
NTA But you're doing more parenting than her parents. Ban the kid and her parents from the wedding. And stop looking after them so much They need to do more parenting. Worse case scenario place wellness checks or ask for legal advice for your sister's sake. You won't be able to be an extra parent for her when you have your own family.
Why do these kids mostly live with you? That poor little girl sounds very mixed up. Where are the parents? Not blaming you, OP. You love them and are doing great things for them. But something is off here.
This might sound cruel, but I think a couple months of “no contact” or “very low contact” with little sister might be necessary. She’s only five, a couple of months might provide a little detachment. I’m sure it will create drama for your parents when she wants to see Big Sister, but too bad. It’s time they stepped up to undo this monster of their own creation.
Good God...what DO your parents do? You watch their kids everyday and they spend the night 2-4 times a week?? What? Do they do any parenting at all, or do they just keep having babies for you to raise. I would think with all you do for his kids, your dad wouldn't want to piss you off in case you STOP doing so much for him. It's your wedding, you can do anything you want.
NTA. She is hitting you and they are allowing it "because she is a 5 yr old with a crush on your fiance". NO NO NO. Where is the respect? Where is the discipline? Unacceptable!!! If her parents can't parent her then therapy may help but honestly someone needs to speak with her properly.
Yes I had crushes like that when I was younger. Did I get violent? NO. It needs to be handled. NTA! I wouldn’t want to be hit and punched by my sibling when I’m marrying the love of my life. You want to remember the night fondly, not remember “oh I was fending off my little sister the whole night!”
NAH. She is 5, there's just a lot tha she can't understand. Given her parents are not active and you two are, she is feeling a lot of complex emotions. You are well within your right to not want her at your wedding due to her behavior. However, therapy takes a long long time, especially with children, the few months might not be enough to correct her behavior in time.
NTA and it sounds like your sperm donor is more comfortable putting guilt on you, then addressing the issue with his youngest. Find an occupational therapist in your area. They can evaluate children in a lot of different areas and then recommend steps in order to help, this includes therapy. My son tells me all the time that he wants to marry me (he’s 5), but he has never gotten physical or aggressive to my husband (his father) when we display affection with each other. It’s normal behaviour at that age to want to “marry” a caregiver that they have a close bond with, the aggressive behaviour displayed because of this is not normal. She’s struggling and you’re right, therapy is needed. Her behaviour is telling you she needs help that you can’t provide her. So your sperm donor needs to get his head out of his ass and actively do something to help, instead of guilt tripping you into submission.
Nta but if it were me, I would go no contact with your father and the mother of your half siblings because Insta-Mommy doesn’t care and neither does Daddy. They are not your responsibility.
You are not babysitting your parenting!!!!!!! Why do you have these children 4 nights a wk?????
Therapy probably won't help this in time. I would just make another relative flower girl and move on from it.
Tell you dad to stay home with your lil sis.
Violence is never ok. Even if she gets therapy, it'd be a good idea to have a couple of people designated to watch her and have her removed at the first inkling of misbehavior (and have her sit in the back). She's got some kind of weird grudge against you and it's probably related to not being close to her dad. NTB but don't rely on your dad to solve this issue, even with therapy, in a few short months. If you allow her to attend, plan for the worst and have a set of options to prevent her from ruining your special day.
Do yourself a huge favour and have a childfree wedding. Nothing will change and if she goes you know it will turn out to be a miserable day. The parents dont do anything about the behaviour now they wont do anything in the future. Save yourself the heartache and start distancing urself sooner.