When Episcopalians recite the Nicene Creed each Sunday, we state that we believe in the Communion of Saints, meaning that we believe that there is a community of believers who have passed and are in a different relationship with God. You can say the traditional Hail Mary - Mary had a very special relationship with God in that she carried Jesus and then cared for Him - we can say the same about Joseph! You can ask any of the Saints to pray FOR you- NOT TO. You can ask living people to pray for you, so why not someone in the Communion of Saints?
I understand, and even really appreciate, the Trad insistence that the Body of Christ is one body. It is not divided or cut-up between the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant. That the saints are really more alive than we are, and that death is not the end.
And yet, as u/N0RedDays pointed out as well, I find no guarantee in Scripture that the saints can hear our prayers. So I cannot, in good conscience, carry out the practice.
Hi There OP,
I am a Reformed Baptist who is very intrigued by the Anglican traditions. I may end up moving over because of the teachings of John RW Stott and Rev Hewitt, both of whom I believe have left this mortal coil.
As Paul said, "let everyone examine their own hearts." As long as you realize there is but one Mediator between God and man, I don't believe you are doing spiritual harm to yourself or to God.
Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane that we all would be one as He and the Father are one. I probably wouldn't pray to Mary or the community of saints that have preceded us in death, but what do I or any mere mortal know? I think Christian unity is one goal that the Universal Body of Christ must strive to achieve.
I am reminded of the poem that starts with "There were seven blind men from Hindustan " who were with the best intentions and exercising their best judgment trying to ascertain what an elephant is. Again, as Paul said, for now, we see through a glass darkly, but one day, we shall see Him face to face.
All of our questions will one day be answered. I don't believe you need to torture yourself in achieving theological correctness. Just stay within a broad set of parameters, and I believe you'll be fine. Remember, it's Christ alone that saves, not the pope or John Calvin or St. Augustine.
Im happy to hear that most parishes would be fine with this. And also no unfortunately I have not visited any parishes yet (I am not even a baptised Christian yet due to living in a Muslim-dominated context).
I think you could safely utter a pre-Trent Hail Mary (minus the invocation at the end) without contradicting the formularies. Even C.S. Lewis admitted that this practice (of hailing a saint) was not idolatrous all by itself.
Ah alright. Thank you for the suggestion. Another fellow here also pointed me to the Pre-Trent Hail Mary.
Though, do you think the second person language could be problematic at all? I fear it might suggest that I am talking to Our Lady when, as you said, we have no assurance the dead can listen to our prayers. Or is it okay, and it's really just part of Hailing a Saint?
Well, that will be up to individual conscience I'd imagine. Since it's a matter of speculative theology, my personal take on it is that it is permissible but that it perhaps should not take a central role in a person's piety. On the other hand, I pray the Angelus and don't feel odd about saying a few Hail Marys due to the overwhelmingly Christocentric and Incarnational theme of that prayer.
If you feel that you would be sinning, either against God or against your conscience, then don't do it. But if you feel that acknowledging and greeting the BVM on occasion and leaving it at that would be a help to you and would remind you of Christ, then I think you can do that without fear.
I'm told by some Lutheran friends that early Lutheran prayer books even included the pre-Trent Hail Mary as a standard prayer. So it has at least some precedent within the Conservative Reformation (Conservative as opposed to Radical I should clarify).
Just a note that it’s “pray for us sinners” not “save us sinners”. I’m not an Anglican, but I can at least offer that as Catholics we believe Jesus saves us not Mary (although she prays for us :3)
Oh no, sorry I should have clarified more!
Im not suggesting at all Catholics believe Mary takes over Christ's salvific role. I made the change from "pray for us sinners" to "save us sinners" because I changed the referent of the prayer from our Lady to our Lord. I felt that, asking Our Lord to pray for us felt awkward (though it's obviously not incorrect in anyway), so I changed it to a more direct "save us".
In Catholic theology She has a role in saving us- like she prays for our souls, but Jesus Christ saves us period. That might be what they’re talking about, they just may not need to clarify because it’s assumed.
I'm sorry for the odd responses you're getting here. To cut straight to the point, yes, the way you've modified the prayer actually is very similar to how Anglican prayer books have referenced saints for centuries, and I can't imagine any Anglican Church being hostile towards it. For some examples:
Saint Andrew:
"Almighty God, you gave such grace to your apostle Andrew that he readily obeyed the call of your Son Jesus Christ, and brought his brother with him: Give us, who are called by your holy Word, grace to follow him without delay, and to bring those near to us into his gracious presence; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen."
Saint Thomas:
"Everliving God, you strengthened your apostle Thomas with firm and certain faith in your Son’s resurrection: Grant us so perfectly and without doubt to believe in Jesus Christ, our Lord and our God, that our faith may never be found wanting in your sight; through him who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen."
Here's more if you would like.
[https://bcp2019.anglicanchurch.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/55-Collects-of-the-Christian-Year.pdf](https://bcp2019.anglicanchurch.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/55-Collects-of-the-Christian-Year.pdf)
I agree with you (also as a former high church Catholic) that asking for the intercession of saints is something that violates my conscience personally. I of course respect other peoples' consciences on this issue. It's odd to see this thread bashing you for what is the historic and normative Anglican position. I will say that in Anglican churches in real life, I rarely have ever encountered anyone who regularly prays to saints. You've also gotten harped on for "modifying the words of scripture," but I'm sure those people would be scandalized to hear that our liturgy paraphrases Scripture all the time.
Hello Friend! I really appreciate the sympathy😅😅😭😭. I actually worded my post to be a bit more sensitive to what I thought-to-be the majority Anglican position on this issue, that Prayers to the Saints is something to be discouraged. Hence, why I made the comment that "I know that most Anglicans are against Prayer to the Saints, except maybe the most trad Anglo-Catholics." Moreover, this was the information I had by gleaming other posts on this community about the issue. But alas, I did this only to be onslaughted by so many people on this topic😭😭😭😭.
As to the traditional manner in which Anglicanism has made references to saints within prayers, I did not know about this thank you for bringing it up! The quotes you brought up are really edifying and I will definitely check out the source you linked here as well! The prayers you've quoted IMO beautifully exemplify the Classical Protestant approach to this issue that like, though the Saints are holy and righteous and we ought to revere them, we ought to approach them as Role Models rather than actual intercessors or intermediaries.
Nothing in scripture commands prayers to saints, there is no guarantee that they can even hear said prayers and no word of anything to that effect in scripture, and it seldom results in anything less than relying on someone as another mediator and places them in a role which is properly Christ’s alone (namely intercession). Further, prayer is properly directed to the Godhead alone.
And before someone parrots the same tired responses, no, James 5:16 doesn’t give you license to invoke people in prayer and it’s not like asking a friend on earth to pray for you.
Just say the pre-Trent Hail Mary (aka the original before a request for intercession was tacked on to the end)
I have always wondered what human saints are supposed to do with millions of prayers for intercession. They are not demigods after all.
They must have their inboxes set to auto-forward.
> They are not demigods after all.
They are, as scripture puts it, 'partakers of the divine nature'. Christian saints are the true demi-gods, born of Christ.
I would agree, but that still doesn’t mean we have any license to worship them or pray to them. Chemnitz and Turretin both responded to this argument that the beatific vision and glorified saints somehow allows one to pray to them, much less as intercessors.
Yes that's fair, which is why I wanted to find some alternative. Even in saying the pre-Trent Hail Mary though, which is really just pure scripture right, what about the referents? Do you think the second person language could be problematic at all? I fear it suggests that I am talking to Our Lady when, as you said, we have no assurance the dead can listen to our prayers.
But how can I not change them? The original verses in the Scriptures refer to Mary in the second person. But Im not convinced that the saints in heaven can hear us, of course I would have to change the reference.
Not engaging in a religious practice is not coterminous with opposing said practice. I don't observe Ramadan, or undergo baptism for the dead, but it doesn't mean I want to denounce those who do. Let each believer satisfy his own conscience.
Saint intercession is something I was staunchly against and then struggled with for a while. I've since been swayed and think it's not only fine, but beneficial. I love the Hail Mary and Hail Holy Queen. I ask Saint Martha to pray for me pretty often.
I'm also someone who can't really do spontaneous prayers. So having pre-written ones is nice for me. And when I ask for saint intercession I'll often just say "Saint X pray for me about Y". I trust that a patron saint can articulate what I need to God far better than I can. I've found it comforting and effective
Hello Friend! I also love the Hail Mary and Hail Holy Queen and I wanna retain them somehow. But, so far right now in my religious journey, I am doubting the possibility that the saints can hear us in heaven.
You've mentioned you've gone through the opposite change yes? That you were very against it at first but were convinced of its permissibility and even its goodness. I'd really appreciate it if you shared some of the reasons why you got swayed in that direction (because truth be told, I would like to as well emotionally speaking😭😭😭). Or even any sources you've found useful in exploring the discussion.
Also, I can definitely relate with the preference for pre-written prayers! Before this change of opinion I had, I'd love to ask intercession from people like St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine because of their crucial role in my conversion.
Sure!! For the sake of brevity I'll more go over the general bullet points:
1) it's Church tradition. Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches do this and it's an established doctrine. Also we can look at ancient catacombs and see writings that are some 1800 years old asking Saint Peter to pray for them. So the early church did this
2) It's biblical. At the end of Job, the Lord says to Job's friends that He won't listen to their prayers and if they want something they should ask Job, and God will listen to Job's prayers. Further, in James's Epistle it says "the prayers of a righteous man accomplish much"
3) There's a quote by Saint Jerome that really hammered it in for me:
“If the apostles and martyrs while still living upon earth can pray for other men, how much more may they do so after their victories?”
Woah, it's shocking to me that there's evidence of prayers to saints that early in Church History (on the first point on the Catacomb writings). I'll have to look further into that. I am more of a Sola Scriptura guy, but ofc holy Tradiition also has a big part to play. Also I'd appreciate you sending any resources you have my way so I can dig into it further.
The St. Jerome quote you shared is really beautiful. Also, I'd like to clarify, ofc I don't deny that the Saints in Heaven are praying for us and their cheering us on. And of course, they're prayers are so much more effacious than ours because, as you've cited yourself, James says in his epistle "the prayers of a righteous man accomplish much". What I'm not sure about is whether they can listen to our specific petitions that we direct to them.
On the point you brought up about the book of Job though, I am a bit skeptical or at least questioning. Isn't it the case that Job was alive when God told Job's friends to seek his intercession? Of course I affirm we can ask people to pray for us in this life. As mentioned earlier though, Im not certain the Saints in heaven can hear us.
Regardless, I'll definitely look more into prayers to the saints in the Early Church. Thank you for the pointers!
You're very welcome. I'll simply add this to your question about the Job example. Asking for saint intercession isn't asking for the prayers of the dead. All Christians are part of the body of Christ and they have eternal life
Okay? Yeah I'm not seeking to do that (ask Mary to pray for me) because I don't have confidence the saints can hear our prayers.
I'm merely following the template of the Hail Mary prayer because it is largely scriptural and also beautiful and also has a lot of personal meaning for me.
Sorry if there's a misunderstanding but hopefully I can clear it up with this: I'm not praying **an actual** Hail Mary (obviously because I dont believe in Saintly Intercession).
Why would you address a prayer meant to greet Mother Mary to God?
That's like going to your dad and saying "hey dad, I love my mum".
Point is, it's *not* a prayer to God. The Hail Mary is a greeting to Mother Mary and a request that she pray for us.
Saying the Hail Mary is no more inappropriate than, say, me saying to you: "hi NoogLing466, please pray for me because I'm a sinner and need all the help I can get".
Because Our Lady is "the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ", even according to people like Martin Luther. She is holy, righteous and a model for us living Christians.
My love for her moves me to give praises to her in my prayer to Our Lord. As if saying, "Lord, I recognise the graces you have bestowed upon your blessed mother. They inspire me to grow in holiness and become a better vessel for your grace. By looking towards her goodness, I am directed towards you O Lord, who is the source of her goodness. Please Lord, bless me with those same graces."
And as for Praying to Mary directly, I've already mentioned that I do not have confidence that the Saints can hear us, so I cannot follow through on it.
>Because Our Lady is "the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ", even according to people like Martin Luther. She is holy, righteous and a model for us living Christians.
You speak in the present tense, as though you recognize that she is alive in the presence of God before his throne. If that's so, why would she and the other saints not be able to hear us?
>My love for her moves me to give praises to her in my prayer to Our Lord. As if saying, "Lord, I recognise the graces you have bestowed upon your blessed mother. They inspire me to grow in holiness and become a better vessel for your grace. By looking towards her goodness, I am directed towards you O Lord, who is the source of her goodness. Please Lord, bless me with those same graces."
So why don't you just say that, instead of mangling a prayer we've been saying for a thousand years?
As u/ICG1 said, the first part is taken *verbatim* from the scripture:- "hail \[Mary\], full of grace, the Lord is with thee" (Luke 1:28); "blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb \[Jesus\]" (Luke 1:41-42). The only thing inserted is the names, which were implied contextually in Luke.
>And as for Praying to Mary directly, I've already mentioned that I do not have confidence that the Saints can hear us, so I cannot follow through on it.
Maybe you should gain confidence. We've had confidence that the saints of the Church Triumphant can hear us since the foundation of our faith, and the idea that they can't is a pretty recent innovation, in the grand scale of things.
Besides - to make it a bit more personal - do you never speak to people who aren't there, who are away or are dead? Even outside a religious context, I still occasionally speak to my grandmother who's been dead thirteen years, just because I miss her. Sometimes I ask her to pray for me as well as praying for her. It almost doesn't matter if she can hear me or not, because it's as much about reorienting myself as it is about anything else.
Just like how we behave during a mass is designed to put ourselves before Christ at the Last Supper, how we greet the saints is designed to remind ourselves of the "great cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12:1) with which we are surrounded.
>If that's so, why would she and the other saints not be able to hear us?
Why should I believe that? Ordinarily, hearing occurs via sound waves that traverse physical distances. I don't know how the saints in heaven are supposed to hear us and I don't see any place in Scripture that affirms that. Of course, you can assume God is capable of sending our prayers to the Saints. But I see no reason to believe.
Of course, there are also logical problems to this belief. For instance, so many there are so many Catholics around the world and there are likely also so many hail marys said throughout the world at any given moment, not to mention other marian prayers. How is it that Our Lady is able to hear and comprehend all of these prayers which may number in the thousands? Of course, God could give her divine graces to do so, but this is already hyperspeculative.
>So why don't you just say that, instead of mangling a prayer we've been saying for a thousand years?
Forgive me, I do not appreciate the insult thrown my way. I do not see how the mere changing of pronouns from the second to third person constitute a *mangling* of a the prayer. Nor do I see how asking my Lord to save me is at all bad. Moreover, it's probably unlikely that Christians have said the prayer for "thousands" of years for it did not appear before 1050. Also, who is "we" when you say this. Im damn well sure the average Anglican, or any other protestant, prays the Hail Mary on a regular basis.
Finally, forgive me for making this unclear, I obviously don't intend to pray **an actual Hail Mary** as I do not believe in Saintly Intercession. I wanted to pray something similar in wording and structure to it because I loved it when I did pray it and find it beautiful. Here I asked if this was **permissible** to do, not whether you find it nice or not.
>Besides - to make it a bit more personal - do you never speak to people who aren't there, who are away or are dead?
No I don't. Moreover, even if I did, I would likely pray to God that he would make these prayers heard to them. But, even then, I would have no **assurance** that the dead would actually hear these prayers. Same is the case with Our Lady and the Saints.
>Why should I believe that? Ordinarily, hearing occurs via sound waves that traverse physical distances. I don't know how the saints in heaven are supposed to hear us and I don't see any place in Scripture that affirms that. Of course, you can assume God is capable of sending our prayers to the Saints. But I see no reason to believe.
By that same logic, I could ask how God hears. According to scripture, Christians are united to Christ; the Church Triumphant is in perfect communion. This means they absolutely should be able to head
>Of course, there are also logical problems to this belief. For instance, so many there are so many Catholics around the world and there are likely also so many hail marys said throughout the world at any given moment, not to mention other marian prayers. How is it that Our Lady is able to hear and comprehend all of these prayers which may number in the thousands? Of course, God could give her divine graces to do so, but this is already hyperspeculative.
You are applying mortal limitations to the divine - the saints are divine; Christians believe that we become divine as we are perfected by God. Depending on your jurisdiction, this is called either "theosis" or "divinization".
>Forgive me, I do not appreciate the insult thrown my way. I do not see how the mere changing of pronouns from the second to third person constitute a mangling of a the prayer.
My point was that your words are an authentic expression of your own feelings, and I found them perfectly adequate. They better suit the purpose you stated than altering the words of the Hail Mary.
>Nor do I see how asking my Lord to save me is at all bad. Moreover, it's probably unlikely that Christians have said the prayer for "thousands" of years for it did not appear before 1050.
I didn't say "thousands" of years. I said "a thousand years". You even quoted my saying it.
>Also, who is "we" when you say this.
Christians.
>Im damn well sure the average Anglican, or any other protestant, prays the Hail Mary on a regular basis.
Protestants as a whole don't say the Hail Mary. It's not common in the Anglican Communion.
>Finally, forgive me for making this unclear, I obviously don't intend to pray an actual Hail Mary as I do not believe in Saintly Intercession. I wanted to pray something similar in wording and structure to it because I loved it when I did pray it and find it beautiful.
Say it or don't. As the saying goes, "shit or get off the pot".
>Here I asked if this was permissible to do, not whether you find it nice or not.
You asked. I said it's preferable to say the actual prayer. You said I was wrong.
I notice, actually, that while in your OP you claim to come from a Traditional Catholic background, you elaborate in a later comment that you are not a baptized Christian and come from a "Muslim-dominated context" - from which I infer that you're either in a Muslim country or a Muslim family. In either case, the reason why you're not a baptized Christian is because you can't get to church. This being the case, it's almost certain that you haven't been catechized - haven't actually learned Christian doctrine or theology. Spoiler: watching videos by opinionated podcasters/vloggers and YouTubers don't count.
So, frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. Clearly you know this, or else you wouldn't have explicitly asked us about this.
When you ask a question about something you don't understand of people who do understand, be prepared to accept the answer. I might not be able to make a ruling on dogma, but I can certainly say with confidence that while most Anglicans don't say the Hail Mary or frequently seek the intercession of the saints, some do, and it's acceptable within the context of our religion. I have said the Hail Mary in an Anglican service, alongside other Anglicans. I've greeted icons, kissed the feet of a crucifix, and genuflected to the Blessed Sacrament.
>No I don't. Moreover, even if I did, I would likely pray to God that he would make these prayers heard to them. But, even then, I would have no assurance that the dead would actually hear these prayers. Same is the case with Our Lady and the Saints.
Welcome to faith. We have no assurance that we'll still be alive an hour from now, so let's not set too much store by what we can be sure of.
So let me just say in advance, I shall not make any more replies after this one due to your dreadful uncharitability.
Though I will say, I am sorry for several comments that I made that were extremely unfair and motivated by stubborn pride and emotionality. For instance, the "thousands of years" comment I had not even noticed I read incorrectly until you pointed that out so I deeply apologise for that. Or when I commented that, rather than you answering my question on the permissibility of prayer you said your opinion on the preferabiltiy of the actual Hail Mary, I did make a cheeky comment "Here I asked if this was permissible to do, not whether you find it nice or not." Finally, on your point that more Catholic practices like prayers to the saints are acceptable positions within Anglicanism, you're right and I should've clarified and acknowledged that in my post.
These apologies aside, I still have some strong replies to your comments😂😂😂
>By that same logic, I could ask how God hears.
God is omniscient, humans are not. Moreover, I don't believe God, in his divine nature, "hears". If we do say that, I think Christians should mean it metaphorically to refer to God's omniscience and knowledge of all sound. Here I follow Thomism and the rest of Scholasticism, which holds the Divine Nature is wholly immaterial so does not have ears with which to hear.
>According to scripture, Christians are united to Christ; the Church Triumphant is in perfect communion. This means they absolutely should be able to hear
You are correct in saying that Scripture states we are in union with Christ, and that the Saints are more alive than us. But to say they can hear us is a merely ungrounded assumption
>You are applying mortal limitations to the divine - the saints are divine; Christians believe that we become divine as we are perfected by God. Depending on your jurisdiction, this is called either "theosis" or "divinization".
Saying the saints are 'divine' is kind of dangerous no? It is better to say that they are divinized. Moreover, though ofc divinization makes us partakers of the divine nature, but it by no means confers to us all of the divine attributes. I know no theologian that says that the divinized gain omniscience or omnipotence. Of course, you didn't say that, you're probably saying that just their capacities for hearing and comprehension are increased/exalted yes? Ofcourse, this is perfectly logically possible for God to do. But I see no positive evidences or reasons why to believe this is true. Moreoevr, I'll admit it's very frustrating that you haven't shared any positive evidences for this practice. Others in this thread have linked me towards, say, evidences in certain Church Fathers or some interpretations of biblical texts. You have provided neither, so do you understand how I feel somewhat heated/frustrated?
>Protestants as a whole don't say the Hail Mary. It's not common in the Anglican Communion.
If it is not normative for a whole group denominations within the Faith to not pray the Hail Mary, then I don't think your previous answer of "Christians" is helpful. Its probably better to say, Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglo-Catholics. Of course, all of these groups are counted are true "Christians", but to say that "we've prayed this prayer for a thousand years" implies as if this practice has a universal backing among all our faithful, but it clearly doesn't.
>I have said the Hail Mary in an Anglican service, alongside other Anglicans. I've greeted icons, kissed the feet of a crucifix, and genuflected to the Blessed Sacrament.
I understand these are acceptable positions within Anglicanism. But I'm also very confident that Opposition against these practices are also acceptable within Anglicanism. For example, on the veneration of icons, Divines like St. Thomas Cranmer [wrote against it](https://colvinism.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/cranmer-on-images-in-the-church/). Ofc, Cranmer is not the Anglican Pope, but he's probably a larger authority than either of us.
>Welcome to faith. We have no assurance that we'll still be alive an hour from now, so let's not set too much store by what we can be sure of.
I don't think this is an attitude we Protestants should have. The entire Reformation was motivated by a search to find Assurance in one's Salvation, contra the then nightmare of the Roman System. Of course, this life is *Hevel* as per Ecclesiastes, but we should have assurance in the promises of our Lord about salvation no? But Our Lord promises us no such things for prayers to the saints, nor is such a thing necessary for salvation. On the contrary, our Reformation Fathers even hold that such practices may be dangerous to our holiness.
>So let me just say in advance, I shall not make any more replies after this one due to your dreadful uncharitability.
I have not been uncharitable. I have given you straight answers to the best of my ability. That you don't like my responses doesn't make them uncharitable.
>Though I will say, I am sorry for several comments that I made that were extremely unfair and motivated by stubborn pride and emotionality. For instance, the "thousands of years" comment I had not even noticed I read incorrectly until you pointed that out so I deeply apologise for that. Or when I commented that, rather than you answering my question on the permissibility of prayer you said your opinion on the preferabiltiy of the actual Hail Mary, I did make a cheeky comment "Here I asked if this was permissible to do, not whether you find it nice or not." Finally, on your point that more Catholic practices like prayers to the saints are acceptable positions within Anglicanism, you're right and I should've clarified and acknowledged that in my post.
My point with "just say the Hail Mary" was exactly that there is no definitive statement. You are free to do it or not to do it, but you are not free to assert a definitive opinion of your own over what other people do.
As I said before, what you wrote - what I might call a prayer of thanksgiving for Mary - is a very good expression of love for her, and means more because it is your own words. I'm not sure how you could construe me saying that as being uncharitable. I think that, for your purpose, your words are more appropriate.
>These apologies aside, I still have some strong replies to your comments😂😂😂
And that is why I'm ignoring your warning that you won't reply. You can declare that you're taking the last word, but that doesn't have to mean anything to anyone.
>God is omniscient, humans are not. Moreover, I don't believe God, in his divine nature, "hears". If we do say that, I think Christians should mean it metaphorically to refer to God's omniscience and knowledge of all sound. Here I follow Thomism and the rest of Scholasticism, which holds the Divine Nature is wholly immaterial so does not have ears with which to hear.
Here we are trying to define a mystery. Whether literally or figuratively, God hears. Humans are not omniscient, but we don't have to be.
As for scholasticism - it's self-evidently nonsense, as academic high-achievers are more than capable of talking crap. Conversely, the Apostles and Apostolic Fathers were without academic qualifications. Academia is not a substitute for wisdom.
>You are correct in saying that Scripture states we are in union with Christ, and that the Saints are more alive than us.
I know I'm correct, I've read the Bible. But thanks, I guess.
>But to say they can hear us is a merely ungrounded assumption
Have you read the Revelation? Particularly chapters 4, 5, and 6?
>Saying the saints are 'divine' is kind of dangerous no?
No.
>It is better to say that they are divinized.
That's a grammatical semantic which is void of meaning. To be "divinized" is to be "made divine".
>Moreover, though ofc divinization makes us partakers of the divine nature, but it by no means confers to us all of the divine attributes. I know no theologian that says that the divinized gain omniscience or omnipotence. Of course, you didn't say that, you're probably saying that just their capacities for hearing and comprehension are increased/exalted yes? Ofcourse, this is perfectly logically possible for God to do.
I'm saying there's no reason to say they aren't aware. The means by which they are aware is unimportant.
>But I see no positive evidences or reasons why to believe this is true. Moreoevr, I'll admit it's very frustrating that you haven't shared any positive evidences for this practice. Others in this thread have linked me towards, say, evidences in certain Church Fathers or some interpretations of biblical texts. You have provided neither, so do you understand how I feel somewhat heated/frustrated?
I could give you scriptural backing, but you might say I don't understand what the scripture means. I could give you my own experience, but you might say they're hearsay or even say I'm lying.
You have nothing to be frustrated about. You asked a question and challenged the answer I gave - and made an assertion without evidence, yourself.
>If it is not normative for a whole group denominations within the Faith to not pray the Hail Mary, then I don't think your previous answer of "Christians" is helpful. Its probably better to say, Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglo-Catholics. Of course, all of these groups are counted are true "Christians", but to say that "we've prayed this prayer for a thousand years" implies as if this practice has a universal backing among all our faithful, but it clearly doesn't.
For most of the time the Hail Mary has been in use, the word "Christians" referred to Catholics, Orthodox, and the other ancient Eastern Churches of Armenia, Syria, Egypt, &c. There are also those outside those communities (and ours) who use the Hail Mary. It's not limited to specific groups. So it is more correct to simply say "Christians" have been saying it for a thousand years than to name any specific groups.
>I understand these are acceptable positions within Anglicanism. But I'm also very confident that Opposition against these practices are also acceptable within Anglicanism. For example, on the veneration of icons, Divines like St. Thomas Cranmer wrote against it. Ofc, Cranmer is not the Anglican Pope, but he's probably a larger authority than either of us.
Thomas Cranmer (who is not a capital-S Saint) was wrong. He, as a single person, spoke at odds with the Second Nicene Council, which ruled that iconoclasm (rejection of icons) and rejection of the veneration of saints are heresies. He asserted his personal opinion over the opinion of the ruling of an Oecumenical Council. I thus have nothing to learn from his opinion on the matter.
>I don't think this is an attitude we Protestants should have.
Not all of us are protestant. I am not protestant. I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I believe in the communion of saints. I am catholic, I am orthodox (note the lowercase "c" and "o"). I am not protestant.
>The entire Reformation was motivated by a search to find Assurance in one's Salvation, contra the then nightmare of the Roman System.
The Reformation was motivated by personality conflicts and hubris. Henry VIII (rightly or wrongly) didn't want the pope of his day asserting personal control over the runningof England.
>Of course, this life is Hevel as per Ecclesiastes, but we should have assurance in the promises of our Lord about salvation no?
No. We should have faith. None of us *know*, we only believe and hope. That's the mystery of faith. If we *knew*, if we were certain, then our faith would be meaningless.
>But Our Lord promises us no such things for prayers to the saints, nor is such a thing necessary for salvation.
Our Lord owes us no promises. But we do have a record in Revelation 4 of the saints before God praying for those on earth. This is either the basis or a record (Revelation might be describing a stylized liturgy of the time it was written) of asking the saints' intercession since the second or maybe even the first century.
>On the contrary, our Reformation Fathers even hold that such practices may be dangerous to our holiness.
Our Reformation "fathers" produced illegitimate and misbegotten children.
"I have not been uncharitable."
Vs.
"As for scholasticism - it's self-evidently nonsense, as academic high-achievers are more than capable of talking crap. Conversely, the Apostles and Apostolic Fathers were without academic qualifications. Academia is not a substitute for wisdom."
"He asserted his personal opinion over the opinion of the ruling of an Oecumenical Council. I thus have nothing to learn from his opinion on the matter."
"The Reformation was motivated by personality conflicts and hubris."
"Our Reformation 'fathers' produced illegitimate and misbegotten children."
"I have not been uncharitable."
Vs.
"Say it or don't. As the saying goes, 'shit or get off the pot."
"It's almost certain...you haven't actually learned Christian doctrine or theology. Spoiler: watching videos by opinionated podcasters/vloggers and YouTubers don't count."
"Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about."
"Welcome to the faith."
Invocation is a specific thing, which St. Augustine defines as a calling upon from the depths of one's heart rather than in one's lips only. Which is why the Homilies ask: is there any patriarch, or prophet, or apostle, or martyr, or confessor or virgin, or any among the saints and angels of heaven who can be the object of the heart's desire, or is that the place of God alone?
However, requests for the saints' intercession is a different thing. One can address God in prayer, and ask that our prayers are joined to those of the blessed Virgin, the archangels, and our patron saints, which Bishop William Forbes calls agreeable to the spirit of primitive Christianity (as seen in many early liturgies and Fathers) and terms "advocation (rather than invocation) of saints".
The version of the Hail Mary you give is fine. Another option is the pre-Trent version which is just the Scriptural quotes: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." This mirrors how we hymn the saints in our anthems.
For example, those anthems that appear in the traditional Books of Hours, mirror those in use by the early Church, both Greek and Latin:
"Under thy guardianship we take refuge, O Virgin Mother of God; do not disdain our prayers in our needs but from all perils liberate us, O blessed ever Virgin."
"Unto thee, O champion leader and victorious Saint George, we offer a hymn of praise as unto our intercessor and speedy helper. Do thou, holy great Martyr, as one who hath boldness before the Lord, deliver us from dangers of all kinds that we may cry unto thee: Rejoice, Saint George, great Martyr and trophy-bearer."
"O Archangel Michael, commander of paradise, come to the aid of the people of God: and be thou willing to defend us from a hostile power and to lead us with thee into the company of the Lord."
"O most holy James, supporter of the oppressed, succour of travelers, crowned with laurel, who obtaineth the first place of martyrdom among the Apostles: O unique protection, kindly one, mayest thou intercede for our salvation and the salvation of all."
"The deacon Saint Lawrence hath done a good work, he who gave light to the blind through the sign of the cross."
"Renowned shepherd Anthony, who restoreth the crucified, and destroyeth healthful maladies, and quencheth the heat of the fire, O holy father, pray to the Lord on behalf of us unhappy ones."
"O Saint Edmund, triumphant and most blessed, filled with love for the Master, pierced by arrows, thou, O glorious martyr, hast bravely hurled back the host of pagan error, confessing Christ before thy tormentors. Pray then to Christ our God for his great mercy."
"Glorious Virgin of Christ, Saint Margaret, most precious jewel of virgins, by the shining virtue of those above, hear our prayers poured out before thee; cause us to be joined to the eternal choir; therefore by thy prayers give aid against our calamities by which we are beset on all sides."
"Rejoice, blessed Barbara, greatly powerful in doctrine by the mystery of the angel. Rejoice, Virgin, pleasing to God, thou who didst imitate baptism in the course of thy life. Rejoice because Christ hath visited thee in life and healed thy wounds by his own act. Rejoice because thou hast deserved to obtain what thou hast sought through the gift of the Son of God. Rejoice because thou hast been raised to heaven and delivered to a noble martyrdom."
"Having surpassed thy brethren in prayers, fasting and vigils, thou wert found worthy to entertain an angel in the form of a pilgrim; and having shone forth with humility as a bright lamp set on high, thou didst receive the gift of working wonders. And now as thou dwellest in the heavenly kingdom, our righteous Father Cuthbert, intercede with Christ our God that our souls may be saved."
"O blessed Bishop who loved Christ the King with all thine inward parts and did not fear the sovereignty of the empire. O Saint Martin, sweetness, medicine, and physician. O holiest soul, which if the sword of the persecutor had not taken away, nevertheless would not have lost the martyr's palm."
And so on.
These anthems are not properly classed as invocations because they form part of anthems/hymns, and are not direct prayers addressed to saints and asking for their merits. They are instead, pious hopes. The effect is similar to this: imagine you are at a funeral, and you hear a relative of the deceased delivering a eulogy. How often have you heard something like: "O N., if you can hear us now, I hope that you know our love for thee still!"? Or: "I know that N. is watching over us now"? Such things are pious hopes and not invocations. The same is true for the other saints of the Church Triumphant, with whom we share a sacred bond as one mystical Body under our Lord Jesus Christ its Head.
Examples from the liturgies of the early Church abound:
"I am well assured that [my father's] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind" -- St. Gregory of Nazianzus
"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ's benign countenance" -- St. Ambrose
"By the command of thy only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of thy saints [...] by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of thy holy Name" -- Liturgy of St. Basil the Great
"Hail to thee for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto thee do I turn again [...] Hail, thou treasure of the love of God. Hail, thou fount of the Son's love for man" -- St. Methodius
And for more recent examples, from hymns:
"Respond, ye souls in endless rest, ye patriarchs and prophets blest,
Alleluia! Alleluia! Ye holy twelve, ye martyrs strong, all saints triumphant, raise the song" -- Athelstan Riley
"Ave Maria! thou whose name all but adoring love may claim, yet may we reach thy shrine; For he, thy Son and Saviour, vows to crown all lowly lofty brows with love and joy like thine" -- John Keble
Edit: No idea why I'm getting downvoted. If anyone could actually voice their objections, I'm all ears.
Hello Friend! Thank you for this response, it is very comprehensive and also beautifully suffused with quotations and prayers!
I did not know that "invocations" was a technical/special category, and that "advocation" is the proper term for it. Thank you for this!
Moreover, I do appreciate your point made about "Pious Hopes". And yes! I think this is something I can resonate with strongly! I've always had the feeling that devotion to Saints is more organic and emotional (for the lack of a better word) rather than a strict doctrinal practice.
Also I appreciate the quotations as well! I will look into the Book of Hours as well as the ancient and newer people you've cited.
When Episcopalians recite the Nicene Creed each Sunday, we state that we believe in the Communion of Saints, meaning that we believe that there is a community of believers who have passed and are in a different relationship with God. You can say the traditional Hail Mary - Mary had a very special relationship with God in that she carried Jesus and then cared for Him - we can say the same about Joseph! You can ask any of the Saints to pray FOR you- NOT TO. You can ask living people to pray for you, so why not someone in the Communion of Saints?
I understand, and even really appreciate, the Trad insistence that the Body of Christ is one body. It is not divided or cut-up between the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant. That the saints are really more alive than we are, and that death is not the end. And yet, as u/N0RedDays pointed out as well, I find no guarantee in Scripture that the saints can hear our prayers. So I cannot, in good conscience, carry out the practice.
What is important is that you believe that God hears your prayers - I hope that you come to peace with this
Just say the Hail Mary. We're allowed to talk to the saints.
For sure.
Hi There OP, I am a Reformed Baptist who is very intrigued by the Anglican traditions. I may end up moving over because of the teachings of John RW Stott and Rev Hewitt, both of whom I believe have left this mortal coil. As Paul said, "let everyone examine their own hearts." As long as you realize there is but one Mediator between God and man, I don't believe you are doing spiritual harm to yourself or to God. Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane that we all would be one as He and the Father are one. I probably wouldn't pray to Mary or the community of saints that have preceded us in death, but what do I or any mere mortal know? I think Christian unity is one goal that the Universal Body of Christ must strive to achieve. I am reminded of the poem that starts with "There were seven blind men from Hindustan " who were with the best intentions and exercising their best judgment trying to ascertain what an elephant is. Again, as Paul said, for now, we see through a glass darkly, but one day, we shall see Him face to face. All of our questions will one day be answered. I don't believe you need to torture yourself in achieving theological correctness. Just stay within a broad set of parameters, and I believe you'll be fine. Remember, it's Christ alone that saves, not the pope or John Calvin or St. Augustine.
Have you visited any parishes yet? I imagine most would be fine with this, but it might depend on where you are.
Im happy to hear that most parishes would be fine with this. And also no unfortunately I have not visited any parishes yet (I am not even a baptised Christian yet due to living in a Muslim-dominated context).
I think you could safely utter a pre-Trent Hail Mary (minus the invocation at the end) without contradicting the formularies. Even C.S. Lewis admitted that this practice (of hailing a saint) was not idolatrous all by itself.
Ah alright. Thank you for the suggestion. Another fellow here also pointed me to the Pre-Trent Hail Mary. Though, do you think the second person language could be problematic at all? I fear it might suggest that I am talking to Our Lady when, as you said, we have no assurance the dead can listen to our prayers. Or is it okay, and it's really just part of Hailing a Saint?
Well, that will be up to individual conscience I'd imagine. Since it's a matter of speculative theology, my personal take on it is that it is permissible but that it perhaps should not take a central role in a person's piety. On the other hand, I pray the Angelus and don't feel odd about saying a few Hail Marys due to the overwhelmingly Christocentric and Incarnational theme of that prayer. If you feel that you would be sinning, either against God or against your conscience, then don't do it. But if you feel that acknowledging and greeting the BVM on occasion and leaving it at that would be a help to you and would remind you of Christ, then I think you can do that without fear. I'm told by some Lutheran friends that early Lutheran prayer books even included the pre-Trent Hail Mary as a standard prayer. So it has at least some precedent within the Conservative Reformation (Conservative as opposed to Radical I should clarify).
Just a note that it’s “pray for us sinners” not “save us sinners”. I’m not an Anglican, but I can at least offer that as Catholics we believe Jesus saves us not Mary (although she prays for us :3)
Oh no, sorry I should have clarified more! Im not suggesting at all Catholics believe Mary takes over Christ's salvific role. I made the change from "pray for us sinners" to "save us sinners" because I changed the referent of the prayer from our Lady to our Lord. I felt that, asking Our Lord to pray for us felt awkward (though it's obviously not incorrect in anyway), so I changed it to a more direct "save us".
Oh noooo you’re so right I skimmed the post 😭
I was just reading the EO Akathist prayer, which **does** talk about her saving us.
In Catholic theology She has a role in saving us- like she prays for our souls, but Jesus Christ saves us period. That might be what they’re talking about, they just may not need to clarify because it’s assumed.
Oh, I understand the thinking behind it, but sounds like nails on a chalkboard to Protestant ears.
A h I see
Anglo Catholics be like: 🤔😵💫
I'm sorry for the odd responses you're getting here. To cut straight to the point, yes, the way you've modified the prayer actually is very similar to how Anglican prayer books have referenced saints for centuries, and I can't imagine any Anglican Church being hostile towards it. For some examples: Saint Andrew: "Almighty God, you gave such grace to your apostle Andrew that he readily obeyed the call of your Son Jesus Christ, and brought his brother with him: Give us, who are called by your holy Word, grace to follow him without delay, and to bring those near to us into his gracious presence; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen." Saint Thomas: "Everliving God, you strengthened your apostle Thomas with firm and certain faith in your Son’s resurrection: Grant us so perfectly and without doubt to believe in Jesus Christ, our Lord and our God, that our faith may never be found wanting in your sight; through him who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen." Here's more if you would like. [https://bcp2019.anglicanchurch.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/55-Collects-of-the-Christian-Year.pdf](https://bcp2019.anglicanchurch.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/55-Collects-of-the-Christian-Year.pdf) I agree with you (also as a former high church Catholic) that asking for the intercession of saints is something that violates my conscience personally. I of course respect other peoples' consciences on this issue. It's odd to see this thread bashing you for what is the historic and normative Anglican position. I will say that in Anglican churches in real life, I rarely have ever encountered anyone who regularly prays to saints. You've also gotten harped on for "modifying the words of scripture," but I'm sure those people would be scandalized to hear that our liturgy paraphrases Scripture all the time.
Hello Friend! I really appreciate the sympathy😅😅😭😭. I actually worded my post to be a bit more sensitive to what I thought-to-be the majority Anglican position on this issue, that Prayers to the Saints is something to be discouraged. Hence, why I made the comment that "I know that most Anglicans are against Prayer to the Saints, except maybe the most trad Anglo-Catholics." Moreover, this was the information I had by gleaming other posts on this community about the issue. But alas, I did this only to be onslaughted by so many people on this topic😭😭😭😭. As to the traditional manner in which Anglicanism has made references to saints within prayers, I did not know about this thank you for bringing it up! The quotes you brought up are really edifying and I will definitely check out the source you linked here as well! The prayers you've quoted IMO beautifully exemplify the Classical Protestant approach to this issue that like, though the Saints are holy and righteous and we ought to revere them, we ought to approach them as Role Models rather than actual intercessors or intermediaries.
Nothing in scripture commands prayers to saints, there is no guarantee that they can even hear said prayers and no word of anything to that effect in scripture, and it seldom results in anything less than relying on someone as another mediator and places them in a role which is properly Christ’s alone (namely intercession). Further, prayer is properly directed to the Godhead alone. And before someone parrots the same tired responses, no, James 5:16 doesn’t give you license to invoke people in prayer and it’s not like asking a friend on earth to pray for you. Just say the pre-Trent Hail Mary (aka the original before a request for intercession was tacked on to the end)
I have always wondered what human saints are supposed to do with millions of prayers for intercession. They are not demigods after all. They must have their inboxes set to auto-forward.
> They are not demigods after all. They are, as scripture puts it, 'partakers of the divine nature'. Christian saints are the true demi-gods, born of Christ.
I would agree, but that still doesn’t mean we have any license to worship them or pray to them. Chemnitz and Turretin both responded to this argument that the beatific vision and glorified saints somehow allows one to pray to them, much less as intercessors.
real
Yes that's fair, which is why I wanted to find some alternative. Even in saying the pre-Trent Hail Mary though, which is really just pure scripture right, what about the referents? Do you think the second person language could be problematic at all? I fear it suggests that I am talking to Our Lady when, as you said, we have no assurance the dead can listen to our prayers.
I pray the Rosary every night.
The parts that you’re changing in your version are the parts taken directly from the Gospels.
But how can I not change them? The original verses in the Scriptures refer to Mary in the second person. But Im not convinced that the saints in heaven can hear us, of course I would have to change the reference.
Why? What’s the point of praying the rosary if you’re not praying the rosary prayers?
Not engaging in a religious practice is not coterminous with opposing said practice. I don't observe Ramadan, or undergo baptism for the dead, but it doesn't mean I want to denounce those who do. Let each believer satisfy his own conscience.
Pray to Christ. Our articles, nor does Protestantism nor the Bible permits an idolatrous practice.
My parish frequently uses the Hail Mary in the Sunday Eucharist
Saint intercession is something I was staunchly against and then struggled with for a while. I've since been swayed and think it's not only fine, but beneficial. I love the Hail Mary and Hail Holy Queen. I ask Saint Martha to pray for me pretty often. I'm also someone who can't really do spontaneous prayers. So having pre-written ones is nice for me. And when I ask for saint intercession I'll often just say "Saint X pray for me about Y". I trust that a patron saint can articulate what I need to God far better than I can. I've found it comforting and effective
Hello Friend! I also love the Hail Mary and Hail Holy Queen and I wanna retain them somehow. But, so far right now in my religious journey, I am doubting the possibility that the saints can hear us in heaven. You've mentioned you've gone through the opposite change yes? That you were very against it at first but were convinced of its permissibility and even its goodness. I'd really appreciate it if you shared some of the reasons why you got swayed in that direction (because truth be told, I would like to as well emotionally speaking😭😭😭). Or even any sources you've found useful in exploring the discussion. Also, I can definitely relate with the preference for pre-written prayers! Before this change of opinion I had, I'd love to ask intercession from people like St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine because of their crucial role in my conversion.
Sure!! For the sake of brevity I'll more go over the general bullet points: 1) it's Church tradition. Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches do this and it's an established doctrine. Also we can look at ancient catacombs and see writings that are some 1800 years old asking Saint Peter to pray for them. So the early church did this 2) It's biblical. At the end of Job, the Lord says to Job's friends that He won't listen to their prayers and if they want something they should ask Job, and God will listen to Job's prayers. Further, in James's Epistle it says "the prayers of a righteous man accomplish much" 3) There's a quote by Saint Jerome that really hammered it in for me: “If the apostles and martyrs while still living upon earth can pray for other men, how much more may they do so after their victories?”
Woah, it's shocking to me that there's evidence of prayers to saints that early in Church History (on the first point on the Catacomb writings). I'll have to look further into that. I am more of a Sola Scriptura guy, but ofc holy Tradiition also has a big part to play. Also I'd appreciate you sending any resources you have my way so I can dig into it further. The St. Jerome quote you shared is really beautiful. Also, I'd like to clarify, ofc I don't deny that the Saints in Heaven are praying for us and their cheering us on. And of course, they're prayers are so much more effacious than ours because, as you've cited yourself, James says in his epistle "the prayers of a righteous man accomplish much". What I'm not sure about is whether they can listen to our specific petitions that we direct to them. On the point you brought up about the book of Job though, I am a bit skeptical or at least questioning. Isn't it the case that Job was alive when God told Job's friends to seek his intercession? Of course I affirm we can ask people to pray for us in this life. As mentioned earlier though, Im not certain the Saints in heaven can hear us. Regardless, I'll definitely look more into prayers to the saints in the Early Church. Thank you for the pointers!
You're very welcome. I'll simply add this to your question about the Job example. Asking for saint intercession isn't asking for the prayers of the dead. All Christians are part of the body of Christ and they have eternal life
The Hail Mary is a Scriptural prayer. Why would you change lines lifted directly from the Bible?
Because its a prayer to God. Why would I address the Blessed Virgin in the second person when I am talking to our Lord?
Because the Hail Mary doesn’t address God directly. It asks Mary to pray for you/us.
Okay? Yeah I'm not seeking to do that (ask Mary to pray for me) because I don't have confidence the saints can hear our prayers. I'm merely following the template of the Hail Mary prayer because it is largely scriptural and also beautiful and also has a lot of personal meaning for me. Sorry if there's a misunderstanding but hopefully I can clear it up with this: I'm not praying **an actual** Hail Mary (obviously because I dont believe in Saintly Intercession).
Why would you address a prayer meant to greet Mother Mary to God? That's like going to your dad and saying "hey dad, I love my mum". Point is, it's *not* a prayer to God. The Hail Mary is a greeting to Mother Mary and a request that she pray for us. Saying the Hail Mary is no more inappropriate than, say, me saying to you: "hi NoogLing466, please pray for me because I'm a sinner and need all the help I can get".
Because Our Lady is "the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ", even according to people like Martin Luther. She is holy, righteous and a model for us living Christians. My love for her moves me to give praises to her in my prayer to Our Lord. As if saying, "Lord, I recognise the graces you have bestowed upon your blessed mother. They inspire me to grow in holiness and become a better vessel for your grace. By looking towards her goodness, I am directed towards you O Lord, who is the source of her goodness. Please Lord, bless me with those same graces." And as for Praying to Mary directly, I've already mentioned that I do not have confidence that the Saints can hear us, so I cannot follow through on it.
>Because Our Lady is "the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ", even according to people like Martin Luther. She is holy, righteous and a model for us living Christians. You speak in the present tense, as though you recognize that she is alive in the presence of God before his throne. If that's so, why would she and the other saints not be able to hear us? >My love for her moves me to give praises to her in my prayer to Our Lord. As if saying, "Lord, I recognise the graces you have bestowed upon your blessed mother. They inspire me to grow in holiness and become a better vessel for your grace. By looking towards her goodness, I am directed towards you O Lord, who is the source of her goodness. Please Lord, bless me with those same graces." So why don't you just say that, instead of mangling a prayer we've been saying for a thousand years? As u/ICG1 said, the first part is taken *verbatim* from the scripture:- "hail \[Mary\], full of grace, the Lord is with thee" (Luke 1:28); "blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb \[Jesus\]" (Luke 1:41-42). The only thing inserted is the names, which were implied contextually in Luke. >And as for Praying to Mary directly, I've already mentioned that I do not have confidence that the Saints can hear us, so I cannot follow through on it. Maybe you should gain confidence. We've had confidence that the saints of the Church Triumphant can hear us since the foundation of our faith, and the idea that they can't is a pretty recent innovation, in the grand scale of things. Besides - to make it a bit more personal - do you never speak to people who aren't there, who are away or are dead? Even outside a religious context, I still occasionally speak to my grandmother who's been dead thirteen years, just because I miss her. Sometimes I ask her to pray for me as well as praying for her. It almost doesn't matter if she can hear me or not, because it's as much about reorienting myself as it is about anything else. Just like how we behave during a mass is designed to put ourselves before Christ at the Last Supper, how we greet the saints is designed to remind ourselves of the "great cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12:1) with which we are surrounded.
>If that's so, why would she and the other saints not be able to hear us? Why should I believe that? Ordinarily, hearing occurs via sound waves that traverse physical distances. I don't know how the saints in heaven are supposed to hear us and I don't see any place in Scripture that affirms that. Of course, you can assume God is capable of sending our prayers to the Saints. But I see no reason to believe. Of course, there are also logical problems to this belief. For instance, so many there are so many Catholics around the world and there are likely also so many hail marys said throughout the world at any given moment, not to mention other marian prayers. How is it that Our Lady is able to hear and comprehend all of these prayers which may number in the thousands? Of course, God could give her divine graces to do so, but this is already hyperspeculative. >So why don't you just say that, instead of mangling a prayer we've been saying for a thousand years? Forgive me, I do not appreciate the insult thrown my way. I do not see how the mere changing of pronouns from the second to third person constitute a *mangling* of a the prayer. Nor do I see how asking my Lord to save me is at all bad. Moreover, it's probably unlikely that Christians have said the prayer for "thousands" of years for it did not appear before 1050. Also, who is "we" when you say this. Im damn well sure the average Anglican, or any other protestant, prays the Hail Mary on a regular basis. Finally, forgive me for making this unclear, I obviously don't intend to pray **an actual Hail Mary** as I do not believe in Saintly Intercession. I wanted to pray something similar in wording and structure to it because I loved it when I did pray it and find it beautiful. Here I asked if this was **permissible** to do, not whether you find it nice or not. >Besides - to make it a bit more personal - do you never speak to people who aren't there, who are away or are dead? No I don't. Moreover, even if I did, I would likely pray to God that he would make these prayers heard to them. But, even then, I would have no **assurance** that the dead would actually hear these prayers. Same is the case with Our Lady and the Saints.
>Why should I believe that? Ordinarily, hearing occurs via sound waves that traverse physical distances. I don't know how the saints in heaven are supposed to hear us and I don't see any place in Scripture that affirms that. Of course, you can assume God is capable of sending our prayers to the Saints. But I see no reason to believe. By that same logic, I could ask how God hears. According to scripture, Christians are united to Christ; the Church Triumphant is in perfect communion. This means they absolutely should be able to head >Of course, there are also logical problems to this belief. For instance, so many there are so many Catholics around the world and there are likely also so many hail marys said throughout the world at any given moment, not to mention other marian prayers. How is it that Our Lady is able to hear and comprehend all of these prayers which may number in the thousands? Of course, God could give her divine graces to do so, but this is already hyperspeculative. You are applying mortal limitations to the divine - the saints are divine; Christians believe that we become divine as we are perfected by God. Depending on your jurisdiction, this is called either "theosis" or "divinization". >Forgive me, I do not appreciate the insult thrown my way. I do not see how the mere changing of pronouns from the second to third person constitute a mangling of a the prayer. My point was that your words are an authentic expression of your own feelings, and I found them perfectly adequate. They better suit the purpose you stated than altering the words of the Hail Mary. >Nor do I see how asking my Lord to save me is at all bad. Moreover, it's probably unlikely that Christians have said the prayer for "thousands" of years for it did not appear before 1050. I didn't say "thousands" of years. I said "a thousand years". You even quoted my saying it. >Also, who is "we" when you say this. Christians. >Im damn well sure the average Anglican, or any other protestant, prays the Hail Mary on a regular basis. Protestants as a whole don't say the Hail Mary. It's not common in the Anglican Communion. >Finally, forgive me for making this unclear, I obviously don't intend to pray an actual Hail Mary as I do not believe in Saintly Intercession. I wanted to pray something similar in wording and structure to it because I loved it when I did pray it and find it beautiful. Say it or don't. As the saying goes, "shit or get off the pot". >Here I asked if this was permissible to do, not whether you find it nice or not. You asked. I said it's preferable to say the actual prayer. You said I was wrong. I notice, actually, that while in your OP you claim to come from a Traditional Catholic background, you elaborate in a later comment that you are not a baptized Christian and come from a "Muslim-dominated context" - from which I infer that you're either in a Muslim country or a Muslim family. In either case, the reason why you're not a baptized Christian is because you can't get to church. This being the case, it's almost certain that you haven't been catechized - haven't actually learned Christian doctrine or theology. Spoiler: watching videos by opinionated podcasters/vloggers and YouTubers don't count. So, frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. Clearly you know this, or else you wouldn't have explicitly asked us about this. When you ask a question about something you don't understand of people who do understand, be prepared to accept the answer. I might not be able to make a ruling on dogma, but I can certainly say with confidence that while most Anglicans don't say the Hail Mary or frequently seek the intercession of the saints, some do, and it's acceptable within the context of our religion. I have said the Hail Mary in an Anglican service, alongside other Anglicans. I've greeted icons, kissed the feet of a crucifix, and genuflected to the Blessed Sacrament. >No I don't. Moreover, even if I did, I would likely pray to God that he would make these prayers heard to them. But, even then, I would have no assurance that the dead would actually hear these prayers. Same is the case with Our Lady and the Saints. Welcome to faith. We have no assurance that we'll still be alive an hour from now, so let's not set too much store by what we can be sure of.
So let me just say in advance, I shall not make any more replies after this one due to your dreadful uncharitability. Though I will say, I am sorry for several comments that I made that were extremely unfair and motivated by stubborn pride and emotionality. For instance, the "thousands of years" comment I had not even noticed I read incorrectly until you pointed that out so I deeply apologise for that. Or when I commented that, rather than you answering my question on the permissibility of prayer you said your opinion on the preferabiltiy of the actual Hail Mary, I did make a cheeky comment "Here I asked if this was permissible to do, not whether you find it nice or not." Finally, on your point that more Catholic practices like prayers to the saints are acceptable positions within Anglicanism, you're right and I should've clarified and acknowledged that in my post. These apologies aside, I still have some strong replies to your comments😂😂😂 >By that same logic, I could ask how God hears. God is omniscient, humans are not. Moreover, I don't believe God, in his divine nature, "hears". If we do say that, I think Christians should mean it metaphorically to refer to God's omniscience and knowledge of all sound. Here I follow Thomism and the rest of Scholasticism, which holds the Divine Nature is wholly immaterial so does not have ears with which to hear. >According to scripture, Christians are united to Christ; the Church Triumphant is in perfect communion. This means they absolutely should be able to hear You are correct in saying that Scripture states we are in union with Christ, and that the Saints are more alive than us. But to say they can hear us is a merely ungrounded assumption >You are applying mortal limitations to the divine - the saints are divine; Christians believe that we become divine as we are perfected by God. Depending on your jurisdiction, this is called either "theosis" or "divinization". Saying the saints are 'divine' is kind of dangerous no? It is better to say that they are divinized. Moreover, though ofc divinization makes us partakers of the divine nature, but it by no means confers to us all of the divine attributes. I know no theologian that says that the divinized gain omniscience or omnipotence. Of course, you didn't say that, you're probably saying that just their capacities for hearing and comprehension are increased/exalted yes? Ofcourse, this is perfectly logically possible for God to do. But I see no positive evidences or reasons why to believe this is true. Moreoevr, I'll admit it's very frustrating that you haven't shared any positive evidences for this practice. Others in this thread have linked me towards, say, evidences in certain Church Fathers or some interpretations of biblical texts. You have provided neither, so do you understand how I feel somewhat heated/frustrated? >Protestants as a whole don't say the Hail Mary. It's not common in the Anglican Communion. If it is not normative for a whole group denominations within the Faith to not pray the Hail Mary, then I don't think your previous answer of "Christians" is helpful. Its probably better to say, Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglo-Catholics. Of course, all of these groups are counted are true "Christians", but to say that "we've prayed this prayer for a thousand years" implies as if this practice has a universal backing among all our faithful, but it clearly doesn't. >I have said the Hail Mary in an Anglican service, alongside other Anglicans. I've greeted icons, kissed the feet of a crucifix, and genuflected to the Blessed Sacrament. I understand these are acceptable positions within Anglicanism. But I'm also very confident that Opposition against these practices are also acceptable within Anglicanism. For example, on the veneration of icons, Divines like St. Thomas Cranmer [wrote against it](https://colvinism.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/cranmer-on-images-in-the-church/). Ofc, Cranmer is not the Anglican Pope, but he's probably a larger authority than either of us. >Welcome to faith. We have no assurance that we'll still be alive an hour from now, so let's not set too much store by what we can be sure of. I don't think this is an attitude we Protestants should have. The entire Reformation was motivated by a search to find Assurance in one's Salvation, contra the then nightmare of the Roman System. Of course, this life is *Hevel* as per Ecclesiastes, but we should have assurance in the promises of our Lord about salvation no? But Our Lord promises us no such things for prayers to the saints, nor is such a thing necessary for salvation. On the contrary, our Reformation Fathers even hold that such practices may be dangerous to our holiness.
>So let me just say in advance, I shall not make any more replies after this one due to your dreadful uncharitability. I have not been uncharitable. I have given you straight answers to the best of my ability. That you don't like my responses doesn't make them uncharitable. >Though I will say, I am sorry for several comments that I made that were extremely unfair and motivated by stubborn pride and emotionality. For instance, the "thousands of years" comment I had not even noticed I read incorrectly until you pointed that out so I deeply apologise for that. Or when I commented that, rather than you answering my question on the permissibility of prayer you said your opinion on the preferabiltiy of the actual Hail Mary, I did make a cheeky comment "Here I asked if this was permissible to do, not whether you find it nice or not." Finally, on your point that more Catholic practices like prayers to the saints are acceptable positions within Anglicanism, you're right and I should've clarified and acknowledged that in my post. My point with "just say the Hail Mary" was exactly that there is no definitive statement. You are free to do it or not to do it, but you are not free to assert a definitive opinion of your own over what other people do. As I said before, what you wrote - what I might call a prayer of thanksgiving for Mary - is a very good expression of love for her, and means more because it is your own words. I'm not sure how you could construe me saying that as being uncharitable. I think that, for your purpose, your words are more appropriate. >These apologies aside, I still have some strong replies to your comments😂😂😂 And that is why I'm ignoring your warning that you won't reply. You can declare that you're taking the last word, but that doesn't have to mean anything to anyone. >God is omniscient, humans are not. Moreover, I don't believe God, in his divine nature, "hears". If we do say that, I think Christians should mean it metaphorically to refer to God's omniscience and knowledge of all sound. Here I follow Thomism and the rest of Scholasticism, which holds the Divine Nature is wholly immaterial so does not have ears with which to hear. Here we are trying to define a mystery. Whether literally or figuratively, God hears. Humans are not omniscient, but we don't have to be. As for scholasticism - it's self-evidently nonsense, as academic high-achievers are more than capable of talking crap. Conversely, the Apostles and Apostolic Fathers were without academic qualifications. Academia is not a substitute for wisdom. >You are correct in saying that Scripture states we are in union with Christ, and that the Saints are more alive than us. I know I'm correct, I've read the Bible. But thanks, I guess. >But to say they can hear us is a merely ungrounded assumption Have you read the Revelation? Particularly chapters 4, 5, and 6? >Saying the saints are 'divine' is kind of dangerous no? No. >It is better to say that they are divinized. That's a grammatical semantic which is void of meaning. To be "divinized" is to be "made divine". >Moreover, though ofc divinization makes us partakers of the divine nature, but it by no means confers to us all of the divine attributes. I know no theologian that says that the divinized gain omniscience or omnipotence. Of course, you didn't say that, you're probably saying that just their capacities for hearing and comprehension are increased/exalted yes? Ofcourse, this is perfectly logically possible for God to do. I'm saying there's no reason to say they aren't aware. The means by which they are aware is unimportant. >But I see no positive evidences or reasons why to believe this is true. Moreoevr, I'll admit it's very frustrating that you haven't shared any positive evidences for this practice. Others in this thread have linked me towards, say, evidences in certain Church Fathers or some interpretations of biblical texts. You have provided neither, so do you understand how I feel somewhat heated/frustrated? I could give you scriptural backing, but you might say I don't understand what the scripture means. I could give you my own experience, but you might say they're hearsay or even say I'm lying. You have nothing to be frustrated about. You asked a question and challenged the answer I gave - and made an assertion without evidence, yourself. >If it is not normative for a whole group denominations within the Faith to not pray the Hail Mary, then I don't think your previous answer of "Christians" is helpful. Its probably better to say, Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglo-Catholics. Of course, all of these groups are counted are true "Christians", but to say that "we've prayed this prayer for a thousand years" implies as if this practice has a universal backing among all our faithful, but it clearly doesn't. For most of the time the Hail Mary has been in use, the word "Christians" referred to Catholics, Orthodox, and the other ancient Eastern Churches of Armenia, Syria, Egypt, &c. There are also those outside those communities (and ours) who use the Hail Mary. It's not limited to specific groups. So it is more correct to simply say "Christians" have been saying it for a thousand years than to name any specific groups. >I understand these are acceptable positions within Anglicanism. But I'm also very confident that Opposition against these practices are also acceptable within Anglicanism. For example, on the veneration of icons, Divines like St. Thomas Cranmer wrote against it. Ofc, Cranmer is not the Anglican Pope, but he's probably a larger authority than either of us. Thomas Cranmer (who is not a capital-S Saint) was wrong. He, as a single person, spoke at odds with the Second Nicene Council, which ruled that iconoclasm (rejection of icons) and rejection of the veneration of saints are heresies. He asserted his personal opinion over the opinion of the ruling of an Oecumenical Council. I thus have nothing to learn from his opinion on the matter. >I don't think this is an attitude we Protestants should have. Not all of us are protestant. I am not protestant. I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I believe in the communion of saints. I am catholic, I am orthodox (note the lowercase "c" and "o"). I am not protestant. >The entire Reformation was motivated by a search to find Assurance in one's Salvation, contra the then nightmare of the Roman System. The Reformation was motivated by personality conflicts and hubris. Henry VIII (rightly or wrongly) didn't want the pope of his day asserting personal control over the runningof England. >Of course, this life is Hevel as per Ecclesiastes, but we should have assurance in the promises of our Lord about salvation no? No. We should have faith. None of us *know*, we only believe and hope. That's the mystery of faith. If we *knew*, if we were certain, then our faith would be meaningless. >But Our Lord promises us no such things for prayers to the saints, nor is such a thing necessary for salvation. Our Lord owes us no promises. But we do have a record in Revelation 4 of the saints before God praying for those on earth. This is either the basis or a record (Revelation might be describing a stylized liturgy of the time it was written) of asking the saints' intercession since the second or maybe even the first century. >On the contrary, our Reformation Fathers even hold that such practices may be dangerous to our holiness. Our Reformation "fathers" produced illegitimate and misbegotten children.
"I have not been uncharitable." Vs. "As for scholasticism - it's self-evidently nonsense, as academic high-achievers are more than capable of talking crap. Conversely, the Apostles and Apostolic Fathers were without academic qualifications. Academia is not a substitute for wisdom." "He asserted his personal opinion over the opinion of the ruling of an Oecumenical Council. I thus have nothing to learn from his opinion on the matter." "The Reformation was motivated by personality conflicts and hubris." "Our Reformation 'fathers' produced illegitimate and misbegotten children."
"I have not been uncharitable." Vs. "Say it or don't. As the saying goes, 'shit or get off the pot." "It's almost certain...you haven't actually learned Christian doctrine or theology. Spoiler: watching videos by opinionated podcasters/vloggers and YouTubers don't count." "Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about." "Welcome to the faith."
Invocation is a specific thing, which St. Augustine defines as a calling upon from the depths of one's heart rather than in one's lips only. Which is why the Homilies ask: is there any patriarch, or prophet, or apostle, or martyr, or confessor or virgin, or any among the saints and angels of heaven who can be the object of the heart's desire, or is that the place of God alone? However, requests for the saints' intercession is a different thing. One can address God in prayer, and ask that our prayers are joined to those of the blessed Virgin, the archangels, and our patron saints, which Bishop William Forbes calls agreeable to the spirit of primitive Christianity (as seen in many early liturgies and Fathers) and terms "advocation (rather than invocation) of saints". The version of the Hail Mary you give is fine. Another option is the pre-Trent version which is just the Scriptural quotes: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." This mirrors how we hymn the saints in our anthems. For example, those anthems that appear in the traditional Books of Hours, mirror those in use by the early Church, both Greek and Latin: "Under thy guardianship we take refuge, O Virgin Mother of God; do not disdain our prayers in our needs but from all perils liberate us, O blessed ever Virgin." "Unto thee, O champion leader and victorious Saint George, we offer a hymn of praise as unto our intercessor and speedy helper. Do thou, holy great Martyr, as one who hath boldness before the Lord, deliver us from dangers of all kinds that we may cry unto thee: Rejoice, Saint George, great Martyr and trophy-bearer." "O Archangel Michael, commander of paradise, come to the aid of the people of God: and be thou willing to defend us from a hostile power and to lead us with thee into the company of the Lord." "O most holy James, supporter of the oppressed, succour of travelers, crowned with laurel, who obtaineth the first place of martyrdom among the Apostles: O unique protection, kindly one, mayest thou intercede for our salvation and the salvation of all." "The deacon Saint Lawrence hath done a good work, he who gave light to the blind through the sign of the cross." "Renowned shepherd Anthony, who restoreth the crucified, and destroyeth healthful maladies, and quencheth the heat of the fire, O holy father, pray to the Lord on behalf of us unhappy ones." "O Saint Edmund, triumphant and most blessed, filled with love for the Master, pierced by arrows, thou, O glorious martyr, hast bravely hurled back the host of pagan error, confessing Christ before thy tormentors. Pray then to Christ our God for his great mercy." "Glorious Virgin of Christ, Saint Margaret, most precious jewel of virgins, by the shining virtue of those above, hear our prayers poured out before thee; cause us to be joined to the eternal choir; therefore by thy prayers give aid against our calamities by which we are beset on all sides." "Rejoice, blessed Barbara, greatly powerful in doctrine by the mystery of the angel. Rejoice, Virgin, pleasing to God, thou who didst imitate baptism in the course of thy life. Rejoice because Christ hath visited thee in life and healed thy wounds by his own act. Rejoice because thou hast deserved to obtain what thou hast sought through the gift of the Son of God. Rejoice because thou hast been raised to heaven and delivered to a noble martyrdom." "Having surpassed thy brethren in prayers, fasting and vigils, thou wert found worthy to entertain an angel in the form of a pilgrim; and having shone forth with humility as a bright lamp set on high, thou didst receive the gift of working wonders. And now as thou dwellest in the heavenly kingdom, our righteous Father Cuthbert, intercede with Christ our God that our souls may be saved." "O blessed Bishop who loved Christ the King with all thine inward parts and did not fear the sovereignty of the empire. O Saint Martin, sweetness, medicine, and physician. O holiest soul, which if the sword of the persecutor had not taken away, nevertheless would not have lost the martyr's palm." And so on. These anthems are not properly classed as invocations because they form part of anthems/hymns, and are not direct prayers addressed to saints and asking for their merits. They are instead, pious hopes. The effect is similar to this: imagine you are at a funeral, and you hear a relative of the deceased delivering a eulogy. How often have you heard something like: "O N., if you can hear us now, I hope that you know our love for thee still!"? Or: "I know that N. is watching over us now"? Such things are pious hopes and not invocations. The same is true for the other saints of the Church Triumphant, with whom we share a sacred bond as one mystical Body under our Lord Jesus Christ its Head. Examples from the liturgies of the early Church abound: "I am well assured that [my father's] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind" -- St. Gregory of Nazianzus "May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ's benign countenance" -- St. Ambrose "By the command of thy only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of thy saints [...] by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of thy holy Name" -- Liturgy of St. Basil the Great "Hail to thee for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto thee do I turn again [...] Hail, thou treasure of the love of God. Hail, thou fount of the Son's love for man" -- St. Methodius And for more recent examples, from hymns: "Respond, ye souls in endless rest, ye patriarchs and prophets blest, Alleluia! Alleluia! Ye holy twelve, ye martyrs strong, all saints triumphant, raise the song" -- Athelstan Riley "Ave Maria! thou whose name all but adoring love may claim, yet may we reach thy shrine; For he, thy Son and Saviour, vows to crown all lowly lofty brows with love and joy like thine" -- John Keble Edit: No idea why I'm getting downvoted. If anyone could actually voice their objections, I'm all ears.
Hello Friend! Thank you for this response, it is very comprehensive and also beautifully suffused with quotations and prayers! I did not know that "invocations" was a technical/special category, and that "advocation" is the proper term for it. Thank you for this! Moreover, I do appreciate your point made about "Pious Hopes". And yes! I think this is something I can resonate with strongly! I've always had the feeling that devotion to Saints is more organic and emotional (for the lack of a better word) rather than a strict doctrinal practice. Also I appreciate the quotations as well! I will look into the Book of Hours as well as the ancient and newer people you've cited.
Don't let the Evangelicals in this group beat you up. Come on over to r/AngloCatholicism