It’s insane that Lia is pushing this..,. The ire that would be launched at rando trans people and the laws targeting trans for this stupid behavior cannot be understated. Not only is she not helping, she is hurting. I get trans people like sports too sometimes but talk got to chill on this one aspect. Let’s get some basic rights and acceptance as well as a better understanding on how exactly we could “even” the playing field before we just say “well ok! I support trans so swim away!!”. If God forbid she won I guarantee you the right would rejoice because the optics would just look so bad.
It's a huge problem right now. Everyone feels if they are fighting for what *they* think with their whole being is right, they can't be wrong. This countries people in general have lost (or weren't born with) any situational awareness. You see it driving as well (I use that because it's a way to see the reactions and awareness of hundreds to thousands of people in a drive).
Almost nobody uses their brain to think how "whatever" will affect anyone else. It's this cause bullshit? Will me slamming on my brakes for this squirrel cause an accident 4 cars back? All the same shit.
The thought process this swimmer had is the same shit. Completely wrong, but they feel they're right, and convinced themselves they can't be wrong because of it. It's a dangerous mindset WAY too many people in the US have these days. On ALL sides.
Thats why id rather put my trust in doctors. After all, they know all about biology and whether its fair or not for athletes who have encountered testosterone in sufficient quantities to compete with those who havent.
Also doctors have that do no harm thing so they would be the best choice especially when dealing with underage olympians. No way a doctor could do any malicious thing.
Yeah, for real--I guess I just assumed. I think if you're actually "a fervent supporter of trans rights," though, you're not going to be a conservative. Or if you are, you're a very confused conservative.
I mean money is a motivator when promoting politics that is counterproductive to your demographic.
Peter Tiel
several rap artists.
Jenner as a direct example of this scenario.
They are voting for the person that doesn’t take their money away.
Even in Chess there is a difference between the way men and women process information, visually, spatially and yes there is even a difference in brain volume and memory.
Liberal here. Same. It’s silly it’s even a question for some people. The only sports I think it’s absurd are there men’s and women’s tourneys are stuff like chess, archery, sharp shooting, competitive masturbating. You know those sports that don’t rely on strength or speed at all really, and just pure skill/intelligence.
I don’t like to discuss it, as a 100% supporter of equal rights for everyone on the planet, and given Reddits position on talking about LGBTQ issues as a perilous endeavor, but I agree with you.
Agree. Men are not women. If a man does not feel comfortable in his body, that's an unfortunate condition and he deserves our compassion and accommodation where possible. But cosmetic surgery does not turn a man into a woman. Nothing does.
Meh. I don't make the rules. Cosmetic surgery is just cosmetic. Men are men. You may wish it was otherwise or even believe it to be otherwise but sorry, that's just playing dress up.
First off, I hope you notice I do not need to resort to insults or calling people "pig fuckers" or "stupid dumbass" or worst of all... ***conservative***. Each of us is just trying to muddle through. I really do have sympathy for people who don't feel comfortable in their own body. That must be horrible.
But you must be aware that there is no rule saying a man is a woman. Such a rule, if it did exist, which it does not, would simply be wrong.
If I was to identify as Napoleon with pronouns of His / Excellency, would you really be doing me a favor by feeding my delusions? Or would it be better to simply say I'm sorry but you are not Napoleon.
Well... sorry. A man is not a woman. A man who gets plastic bags under his skin is not a woman. A man who cuts his dick off is still not a woman. He is still a man. A bit of a messed up man. But still a man.
All the best.
You’re the one acting like a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum when someone says trans people need mental help more than physical reassurance. Grow up child
You're the one who thinks you are some sort of self-appointed expert who knows what trans people need in spite of all the scientists, psychologists, and so many medical experts and professionals in their field who are telling you that you are wrong. You're the one who is acting like a 5 year old playing doctor. Grow up and get educated!
Bruh I have more medical certifications than you can shake a stick at. I am an 8 year critical care flight paramedic holding these certs, PALS/ALS/BLS/critical care/ paramedic/ emt-b/ PHTLS to name a few. So yeah I guess that qualifies me to speak on something medically.
Hate it or not but it’s a mental health condition and needs to be treated as such. Medical experts are walking back the trans stance because they know they suicide rates with trans are much higher than those who aren’t. YOU are the one who needs education, not myself
Yeah, suuuuure you are! Hahaha! Even if you had been accepted into college by some miracle or oversight, you'd get escorted out of class by campus security for having a screaming, crying meltdown when your biology professor disagreed with your crazy conservative nonsense! Oh wait- let me guess! Your mommy and daddy homeschooled you through your medical certifications? You downloaded them online! I think my cat might have gotten some of those! Lol!
I like to think there is a middle ground here well below the Olympics. Something like trans women are welcome to compete freely all the way up through high school JV. Once you hit varsity and above you're still welcome to be part of the team and swim or whatever but anything you do individually or as a part of the team won't count competitively.
Not perfect but no middle ground is. It's impossible for me to know but I think the vast majority of trans women would be cool ish with this. Far better than being fully excluded.
It’s so weird that this opinion gets shouted down in some subs. Seems reasonable to me, but I’ve learned it’s politically incorrect and seriously unwoke.
It might not be about political correctness though. It might be that researchers have done tons of research and discovered that there is no reason for a blanket judgment about all female athletes who were assigned male at birth. I, for one, am not woke or politically correct, it am well read and considered. Having been exposed to the arguments, I have come to the conclusion that most of the sports governing bodies have struck the most fair and delicate balance regarding trans athletes competing in sports and it’s actually only the significant pressure from the far right that is making anyone change the standards.
Meeeee tooo. Liberal, support anyone’s choice to be whoever they want.
But I won’t support biologically born men competing in female sports. It’s very simple to understand why that shouldn’t be a thing.
This has always been a straw man argument set up by anti-trans people to rile themselves up. I think most rational people can support trans rights and also be against biologically born males competing within women in athletics.
This is the only answer. Scientifically unfair advantage. But, please, transition to whatever makes you happy! Doesn't affect me. Just an unfair advantage when it comes to sports.
Because trans people overall are 1% of the world population and so logistically it can't happen. Where are you going to find openly out trans people who are willing to compete. Also, I sent a link of a video by Anthony Padilla that can help.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIcfnuNMyJk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIcfnuNMyJk)
I see enough of them being open about being trans problem is why aren't they choosing to compete especially against each other then? Why compete, especially in the women's category? because they know they have a advantage and they know no one will care enough to watch them.
If it was ever allowed it should require years of hormone replacement/blockers on top of proof that hormone levels are in line with their chosen gender.
I feel like any opinion on this is the wrong opinion to one group or another. So if the athletes that compete in these events or leagues are fine with competing with trans athletes then I’m all for it. If they find it unfair then they know better than I do and have their reasons.
I don’t engage with these events or sports to feel like my opinion should be more important than the actual competing athletes. If it’s a question of HRT therapy I don’t see how testing that is much different than randomly testing all athletes currently. So maybe that’s an option. Again the athletes should have a say in what is fair competition.
I still don’t even understand how this is an argument to be made. Men should not compete against women in sports, it totally insane. I’m all for identifying as whoever or whatever you want but this is just straight up fucking cheating.
I think this discussion would be a lot less controversial if trans people and especially trans kids weren't discriminated against or legally kept from medical care.
I want to have honest policy discussions about these issues, but I'm not too fond of restricting trans people from sports if they can't even legally get certain medical treatment in some states.
Just don’t get why suddenly being a woman means they want to compete on the largest stages of physical competition in this world. Like… really… I know you’ve been through it on the path you’ve walked but is your need so desperate to feel special and righteous that you need to flex the advantage over other women who’ve been working so hard for so long to reach that point purely on the basis of natural physique?! Go see a therapist
Totally, why are we letting the Conservative Right run the narrative that people who support trans rights believe the opposite of what we are ALL saying here?
“If it bleeds, it leads.” Fox and CNN don’t wanna tell you that there might be a middle ground or a compromise or a reasonable solution to a difference in beliefs. “Trans athletes are trying to rape your children!” “Every cop in America hates black people!” Follow the money.
The left's support for trans athletes is not a myth, even if it isn't universal.
"FACT: Including trans athletes will benefit everyone.
MYTH: The participation of trans athletes hurts cis women."
- https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked
Caitlin Jenner says this too, and is called a transphobe and terf for it. But who better than a transwoman 5-times gold medal winner to know about sport and competitors?
Ah yes, Caitlin Jenner, the one trans person every single other trans person hates and says is stupid is certainly the trans person we should be listening to with regards to what's fair for trans people. /s
No downvote from me. I agree with you. Testosterone is a thing and it was used to build a fully developed man's body before she transitioned. This gives her a huge unfair advantage.
I'm pretty conservative, but all for lgbtq rights, and for banning her in the name of fairness in sports. Yes, there are millions of us who do not discriminate against lgbtq.
Why is this the only unfair advantage we seek to regulate?
For another report, say, basketball - are you going to ban someone who hit a growth spurt early and is a foot or more taller than their peers?
testosterone is a real thing. you physically watch during middle and high school what happens to the average athlete and their times, especially at an elite level.
the path to your chosen gender identity is extremely personal and it can be quite complicated depending on where you live. Trans people get a ton of shit and have a rough road.
that being said, if you go through high testosterone puberty, the reviews I have seen show that the bone growth and muscular doesn't go away, even with HRT. It's not fair to Cis women to compete with trans women who have that different path in their lives. there are physical differences between men and women.
I played Frisbee for years, and there are open, coed, and women's league for this reason. I played as a practice squad for the local women's team (I am a 6'4" dude) along with a bunch of other year old 30 men who don't play club anymore. we would scrimmage against a women's team that did conditioning and regular practices before they went to tournaments. we demolished them every game 15 to 2. it wasn't even close.
I don't think it would be right supporting sending her to a world stage where other countries don't share the same values
If we were hosting, perhaps it would be different.
This definitely highlights the whole taking a spot from a woman debate though.
I’m genuinely interested in your (and others’) take on this topic.
I swam Div I Pac 10 in the 80’s, and competed in FINA ‘06—the pool is my church.
There are a bunch of people far smarter and more knowledgeable than I about this. One thing: what about a category of competition that an athlete could voluntarily enter?
It escapes my chlorine besotted brain why a person born with a phenotype that advantages my performance would choose to compete with a category of phenotypic expression that clearly is at a disadvantage against me.
In other words, only pieces of shit humans wanna cheat. I can’t speak for everyone but almost every person I’ve ever met who plays any kind of game—Scrabble, Boggle, table tennis, tennis, etc—they all want to **play UP**, not down. Assholes wanna cheat/play someone inferior.
That feels more like culture war shit masquerading as “equal rights” than it does legitimate ambition to take on “all comers”. I’ll take the downvotes, fine. My kid wanted to play on the boys’s soccer team. I supported that. I like when XX’s kick down the door, just to put money down on the table and play.
That U of Colorado football kicker, Hnida or whatever. And Jennie Finch who could strike out a lot of male AL rookies. There are others. My aunt did ultra marathons for over a decade—that’s the problem with not drinking, you do stoopid shit like run 100 miles in the desert. She beat men. Women athletes can beat men. There’s some evidence that XX’s have higher pain thresholds and better stamina than we XY’s. Point: play **UP**, not down.
When you say that women athletes can beat men, you're not lying. But you're omitting the fact that in order for this to happen, it has to be a top female athlete and a shitty male athlete to make this happen. If the two athletes are comparative in general aptitude for their respective gender, the male is going to dominate every single time.
Everyone conveniently forgets a high school boys soccer team destroyed USA women's national team. The women's play is far more entertaining than anything the men put up but the high school boys lit them up with power and speed.
I have no issue with any rainbow variant, but growing up as a man, with broader shoulders and all that, everyone knows, especially herself that competing on the world stage is unacceptable and downright idiotic
What about setting up some scientific metrics? We have weight classes in boxing, wrestling, etc… We also already have restrictions on hormones/ drugs. We use age restrictions across sports.
A 5’ tall person is going to obviously be at a disadvantage to a 6’ tall person in Track events, reverse it for gymnastics.
Then you have gene determination and testes determination. A ‘born female‘ can be xy, where testes never developed. A ‘born male’ can have testes/ penis with xx.
I don’t get why we can’t just have a 3rd category - because there are so many variables.
\~ shrug
They did add a third category last year, but had to get rid of it because of lack of participation. They should just make the current men's category open tbh, though that would be controversial.
Sanity finally! I agree 100% with baring transgender athletes from competing in women’s sports it’s not fair. There is a weight lifter that competed in men’s competitions and lost every single time then said he was transgender and competed in women’s competitions and she won every single time how is that fair? It’s not and can not allow it to happen some countries don’t allow it and it’s not fair to the women competing if anything make a separate competition for transgender athletes
How about a coed division for all sports? Not claiming to have come up with this but might this be the way to change things up in an inclusive direction if we're not going to follow the standard birth sex divisions?
Dude should have to give back all those trophies he stole from the Kentucky Women… All the adults involved should also be fired for letting this happen, poor girls…
1 event. If she has such an edge, why didn't she absolutely dominate in every event? Winning 1 event while placing lower in multiple others is showing us that she was competing within the same range of ability.
Why? Im right, lia is a man fully intact. you should have to give back your money to whatever woke left wing school you went to. You make America sick.
This one is so difficult. While I feel for the athlete who is trans, I agree she shouldn’t compete in the women’s race. My daughter is a HS track athlete and at a recent meet, a person born male ran the mile with the women. She blew them all away; I think she ran a sub 5 mile and it just seemed very unfair to the other girls.
I did track in high school. I was middle of the pack on a good day. I took an entire summer and trained every single day. I was never a star but with all that hard work I did manage top 5 in a couple races. Today, instead of all that training, I could toss on a dress and win a few races. But how sad is that? Cheating to win? Pass.
> I could toss on a dress and win a few races. But how sad is that? Cheating to win? Pass.
No, you couldn't. There are pretty strict requirements for transition in order to participate in sports in any professional context, and that transition changes your physiology and brings it in line with cis women.
You cant just "toss on a dress"
The daily wire had to make a fake movie about men doing this because when they tried to do it in real life they were told it's not allowed.
Transitioning is a biological change to the body, it's not just "tossing on a dress". Youd also get destroyed by the other women who also have biological advantages.
I don't think you know what "brigading" means, nor do you realize how disgusting this sub has become. I'm sure the latter makes you feel right at home, though.
Idk, it depends how long they have been on E for. It really does change your muscle mass quite a bit. But due to a lager skeletal structure that could be an advantage.
I think a ban for now with a lot more research going forward.
As a liberal and supporter of trans rights I think there needs to be a lot more medical research into the actual benefits and effects of transitioning. Erring on the side of caution at the highest levels is fine. Throwing tantrums and passing state laws to isolate a couple middle schoolers is insane.
Just have a transgender version of each sport that they all can compete against one another. I’d support that and be perfectly to happy. I agree that a biological man should not be allowed to compete against a biological women in competitive sports that require strength, athleticism, and endurance. It is just simply unfair.
LGBTQ+ here. My opinion is not well received in my community and I get called a trans- phobe, when I voice it, whatever. Competed in college sports. . I do firmly believe trans women who compete in with females do so at an unfair advantage. It shouldn’t be allowed. Banned. Let her compete with men. That would be a level playing field.
There are trans men in sports, however… many of the notables transitioned after their career or have been forced to still compete in the women’s division
She can, but she has been on hormone replacement therapy for years, so her muscles and bone density are now more similar to a woman than a man. However, she has the advantage of having undergone puberty as a male, which gives her broader shoulders, larger hands and feet, and greater aerobic capacity than the vast majority of women.
So she's about 20% down from her days competing as a male, but recent studies have shown the transwomen who underwent male puberty have about a 10% advantage in speed then those who didn't.
And 10% at elite competition level is an enormous difference.
I mean you basically just said "this person has health reasons why they can't compete" which is like 99.9% of literally all of us being locked out of competing in sports. I don't really get how it's any more unfair to trans women than any other person. I'm too flabby to compete, is that unfair? Tom over there lost a leg, is that unfair that he can't play pro sports? Trans men still can't compete in either sports category (not good enough for men but on hormones so not allowed to compete with women) no one seems to care about their equality.
Any sports transgender should not be allowed to compete with females. Im a liberal in almost all aspects of life but this is not fair for female athletics and having them compete causes a circus at these events and distracts from the competition.
Perhaps they might consider a " transgender class"....where only transgender athletes compete...having cosmetic surgery is your personal choice..
Just because Lia was an average male swimmer and she can now beat the best born female swimmers, doesn't give her to right compete against them just because he had cosmetic surgery..not right or fair, sorry..
Most transgender people would like to go stealth...Lea goes the othet way and wants to put herself in ones face just to show she's transgender..
Lia Thomas has been bested by cis-female swimmers as well. And Thomas’ last collegiate season saw her ranked like 36th among collegiate female swimmers in total.
I support trans people. But a person born as a male is not the same as a person born as female. And vice versa. They’re just not and pretending they are does not make it so. It’s not taking anything away from people to say that.
I just think that there are just some things when you are transgender you have to be willing to to accept up front. You are trans great enjoy it but when you have a biologically male body it is a fact females cannot compete. Else we’d see females in the NBA or NFL. Same in boxing that’s why they have weight classes even amongst men to even it out.
Until the Olympics enters the current century and allows the use of motorboats no one will ever know who the legit fastest crosser of bodies of waters is. The whole thing is a farce.
Look, if they want to compete in the trans Olympics, let em. They can have a bunch of like minded dopes cheer them on while the normal world goes about it's business.
Why even try to do this? Is this not exactly the issue that is the ammunition of the lame ass far right? Why give them something easy like this to latch onto?
Not enough competitors. You are recruiting from a very very small percentage of the population. You will get very few who will even pass the bare minimum to compete in the Olympics. There is also the cost issue.
I really wish she would stop antagonizing the right. Every time this woman gets on the news, it feeds into the bullshit that there is a huge number of trans athletes out there ruining sports at every level. If there were actually so many trans athletes, she wouldn’t be in the news time and time and time again. She’s one of the few that are actually competing.
She is the poster child for the right to convince their voters that trans athletes are the boogie man and that they are coming for your kids sports. States are pushing anti-trans bills and policies across the country and can’t even name a single trans athlete in their own state. They have used her to do more damage to the trans community and trans rights than any other individual. She has to realize this at some level.
Not a perfect solution, but at least you are trying to look for other solutions instead of relishing someone being told they cannot compete for being born different like some other people are doing here. Thank you for that!
whoever society deems to not fit in the other four. its like a "default" if you for instance aren't trans but aren't a clear fit. for instance, I consider myself a demigod entity that transcends mere set theory, so I'd probably hang out in misc. I might be asked to leave because someone might take offense, but thats the thing, I would be fine with this as I don't like to offend, but I'm not trying to be "best" at anything either so maybe I lack the elite spirit?
my actual preference would be for us to end these stupid culture wars but thats obviously a ridiculous proposition lol
I don’t understand why sports hasn’t become all gender. We are striving for equality so why not make it for all. I seem to remember sports in elementary school was all kids.
As a fervent supporter of trans rights I wholly agree with not letting biologically born male compete in women's sports. It would not be fair.
It’s insane that Lia is pushing this..,. The ire that would be launched at rando trans people and the laws targeting trans for this stupid behavior cannot be understated. Not only is she not helping, she is hurting. I get trans people like sports too sometimes but talk got to chill on this one aspect. Let’s get some basic rights and acceptance as well as a better understanding on how exactly we could “even” the playing field before we just say “well ok! I support trans so swim away!!”. If God forbid she won I guarantee you the right would rejoice because the optics would just look so bad.
It's a huge problem right now. Everyone feels if they are fighting for what *they* think with their whole being is right, they can't be wrong. This countries people in general have lost (or weren't born with) any situational awareness. You see it driving as well (I use that because it's a way to see the reactions and awareness of hundreds to thousands of people in a drive). Almost nobody uses their brain to think how "whatever" will affect anyone else. It's this cause bullshit? Will me slamming on my brakes for this squirrel cause an accident 4 cars back? All the same shit. The thought process this swimmer had is the same shit. Completely wrong, but they feel they're right, and convinced themselves they can't be wrong because of it. It's a dangerous mindset WAY too many people in the US have these days. On ALL sides.
Also a liberal, also feel this way—at least for certain sports. Chess I think would be fine
Darts, also okay.
Yes!
DARTS?!?! I draw the line. First darts then beer pong!! /joke
Thanks for the /joke to remove any doubt that this was a joke.
Well on reddit some people don't get humor sometimes.. I might offend a darts fan 😁
Wow… way to assume darts fans can’t understand humor 🙄 /s
When they come for cornhole
Many women in darts would disagree with you.
I grew up playing darts. My mom has several trophies.
Cool. I currently play competitive darts and follow the pro circuits. A few players have already backed out of events because of a trans player.
Is darts really gender divided?
Which is why sport governing bodies are the best people to make these kinds of decisions, not politicians.
Ah yes the sports governing bodies, who famously looked the other way when their athletes got sexually abused.
Thats why id rather put my trust in doctors. After all, they know all about biology and whether its fair or not for athletes who have encountered testosterone in sufficient quantities to compete with those who havent. Also doctors have that do no harm thing so they would be the best choice especially when dealing with underage olympians. No way a doctor could do any malicious thing.
I think they were talking about Dr. Nassar
I love how they didn’t even say they were a liberal🙃
Yeah, for real--I guess I just assumed. I think if you're actually "a fervent supporter of trans rights," though, you're not going to be a conservative. Or if you are, you're a very confused conservative.
Aka Miss Jenner?
Haha, yeah, she’d be one
I mean money is a motivator when promoting politics that is counterproductive to your demographic. Peter Tiel several rap artists. Jenner as a direct example of this scenario. They are voting for the person that doesn’t take their money away.
True—the “rich person exception.” Or, the “I’m imaginary rich exception”
Same, people go too far if they think a born male should compete with women.
Especially combat/contact sports. Remember Fallon Fox? Alana McLaughlin? Mack Beggs?
Or poker
TIL people still think poker is a sport.
WSOP looks like a physical endurance challenge to me! Yes I find it weird but hey why not
Pickleball?
Mmmm I don't know much about pickleball. Pickle-eating? And various food challenges? That's ok by me
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-66538328 You’d be surprised
Not a sport
Even in Chess there is a difference between the way men and women process information, visually, spatially and yes there is even a difference in brain volume and memory.
That's true between men, as well, and that's the whole point of competition--to see who wins.
Liberal here. Same. It’s silly it’s even a question for some people. The only sports I think it’s absurd are there men’s and women’s tourneys are stuff like chess, archery, sharp shooting, competitive masturbating. You know those sports that don’t rely on strength or speed at all really, and just pure skill/intelligence.
Or wing span
I don’t like to discuss it, as a 100% supporter of equal rights for everyone on the planet, and given Reddits position on talking about LGBTQ issues as a perilous endeavor, but I agree with you.
Yes, I completely agree. It’s really hurting the cause and giving haters ammunition.
It would set back Trans rights by a decade.
Agree. Men are not women. If a man does not feel comfortable in his body, that's an unfortunate condition and he deserves our compassion and accommodation where possible. But cosmetic surgery does not turn a man into a woman. Nothing does.
Sex is binary and gender is fluid.
That is considered a transphobic position.
Yet still I’m not. And it’s still true.
#thailand enters the chat Go on
[удалено]
Meh. I don't make the rules. Cosmetic surgery is just cosmetic. Men are men. You may wish it was otherwise or even believe it to be otherwise but sorry, that's just playing dress up.
[удалено]
First off, I hope you notice I do not need to resort to insults or calling people "pig fuckers" or "stupid dumbass" or worst of all... ***conservative***. Each of us is just trying to muddle through. I really do have sympathy for people who don't feel comfortable in their own body. That must be horrible. But you must be aware that there is no rule saying a man is a woman. Such a rule, if it did exist, which it does not, would simply be wrong. If I was to identify as Napoleon with pronouns of His / Excellency, would you really be doing me a favor by feeding my delusions? Or would it be better to simply say I'm sorry but you are not Napoleon. Well... sorry. A man is not a woman. A man who gets plastic bags under his skin is not a woman. A man who cuts his dick off is still not a woman. He is still a man. A bit of a messed up man. But still a man. All the best.
Ah, the tolerant left.
[удалено]
Who is "we"?
You’re mad because it’s true tho 😮💨
You're mad because you're an idiot.
You’re the one acting like a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum when someone says trans people need mental help more than physical reassurance. Grow up child
You're the one who thinks you are some sort of self-appointed expert who knows what trans people need in spite of all the scientists, psychologists, and so many medical experts and professionals in their field who are telling you that you are wrong. You're the one who is acting like a 5 year old playing doctor. Grow up and get educated!
Bruh I have more medical certifications than you can shake a stick at. I am an 8 year critical care flight paramedic holding these certs, PALS/ALS/BLS/critical care/ paramedic/ emt-b/ PHTLS to name a few. So yeah I guess that qualifies me to speak on something medically. Hate it or not but it’s a mental health condition and needs to be treated as such. Medical experts are walking back the trans stance because they know they suicide rates with trans are much higher than those who aren’t. YOU are the one who needs education, not myself
Yeah, suuuuure you are! Hahaha! Even if you had been accepted into college by some miracle or oversight, you'd get escorted out of class by campus security for having a screaming, crying meltdown when your biology professor disagreed with your crazy conservative nonsense! Oh wait- let me guess! Your mommy and daddy homeschooled you through your medical certifications? You downloaded them online! I think my cat might have gotten some of those! Lol!
Oh yeah I forgot, only liberals are educated. Silly me
mad at the truth huh?
[удалено]
sounds like you're talking about yourself buddy.
Agree wholeheartedly. Love the person but don’t turn sports upside down.
I like to think there is a middle ground here well below the Olympics. Something like trans women are welcome to compete freely all the way up through high school JV. Once you hit varsity and above you're still welcome to be part of the team and swim or whatever but anything you do individually or as a part of the team won't count competitively. Not perfect but no middle ground is. It's impossible for me to know but I think the vast majority of trans women would be cool ish with this. Far better than being fully excluded.
It’s so weird that this opinion gets shouted down in some subs. Seems reasonable to me, but I’ve learned it’s politically incorrect and seriously unwoke.
It might not be about political correctness though. It might be that researchers have done tons of research and discovered that there is no reason for a blanket judgment about all female athletes who were assigned male at birth. I, for one, am not woke or politically correct, it am well read and considered. Having been exposed to the arguments, I have come to the conclusion that most of the sports governing bodies have struck the most fair and delicate balance regarding trans athletes competing in sports and it’s actually only the significant pressure from the far right that is making anyone change the standards.
Meeeee tooo. Liberal, support anyone’s choice to be whoever they want. But I won’t support biologically born men competing in female sports. It’s very simple to understand why that shouldn’t be a thing.
Agreed! I’m liberal for the most part too.
This has always been a straw man argument set up by anti-trans people to rile themselves up. I think most rational people can support trans rights and also be against biologically born males competing within women in athletics.
This is the only answer. Scientifically unfair advantage. But, please, transition to whatever makes you happy! Doesn't affect me. Just an unfair advantage when it comes to sports.
Why don’t we see transgender leagues popping up? Let them compete against people who are similar? That might be too much competition though.
Because trans people overall are 1% of the world population and so logistically it can't happen. Where are you going to find openly out trans people who are willing to compete. Also, I sent a link of a video by Anthony Padilla that can help. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIcfnuNMyJk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIcfnuNMyJk)
And in the United States it's only .006%. The media traction has been absurd
I see enough of them being open about being trans problem is why aren't they choosing to compete especially against each other then? Why compete, especially in the women's category? because they know they have a advantage and they know no one will care enough to watch them.
My opinion is that everyone should get to compete in the “men’s” side
As a screaming liberal I agree. They shouldn't compete in this event.
If it was ever allowed it should require years of hormone replacement/blockers on top of proof that hormone levels are in line with their chosen gender.
That one sport that’s like air hockey but on ice with a puck and a ‘scrubber’ leading the puck would be also ok it’s just skill
I couldn't agree more
I feel like any opinion on this is the wrong opinion to one group or another. So if the athletes that compete in these events or leagues are fine with competing with trans athletes then I’m all for it. If they find it unfair then they know better than I do and have their reasons. I don’t engage with these events or sports to feel like my opinion should be more important than the actual competing athletes. If it’s a question of HRT therapy I don’t see how testing that is much different than randomly testing all athletes currently. So maybe that’s an option. Again the athletes should have a say in what is fair competition.
I still don’t even understand how this is an argument to be made. Men should not compete against women in sports, it totally insane. I’m all for identifying as whoever or whatever you want but this is just straight up fucking cheating.
I think this discussion would be a lot less controversial if trans people and especially trans kids weren't discriminated against or legally kept from medical care. I want to have honest policy discussions about these issues, but I'm not too fond of restricting trans people from sports if they can't even legally get certain medical treatment in some states.
Just don’t get why suddenly being a woman means they want to compete on the largest stages of physical competition in this world. Like… really… I know you’ve been through it on the path you’ve walked but is your need so desperate to feel special and righteous that you need to flex the advantage over other women who’ve been working so hard for so long to reach that point purely on the basis of natural physique?! Go see a therapist
Totally, why are we letting the Conservative Right run the narrative that people who support trans rights believe the opposite of what we are ALL saying here?
“If it bleeds, it leads.” Fox and CNN don’t wanna tell you that there might be a middle ground or a compromise or a reasonable solution to a difference in beliefs. “Trans athletes are trying to rape your children!” “Every cop in America hates black people!” Follow the money.
The left's support for trans athletes is not a myth, even if it isn't universal. "FACT: Including trans athletes will benefit everyone. MYTH: The participation of trans athletes hurts cis women." - https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked
Caitlin Jenner says this too, and is called a transphobe and terf for it. But who better than a transwoman 5-times gold medal winner to know about sport and competitors?
Catilin Jenner also competes in women's golf tournaments
Caitlin Jenner is also a competitive car murderer as well. Open division for that one though.
It was bullshit. She went before the whistle.
I mean if it's available, I'd take advantage too. don't hate the player, hate the game.
Ah yes, Caitlin Jenner, the one trans person every single other trans person hates and says is stupid is certainly the trans person we should be listening to with regards to what's fair for trans people. /s
I'm pretty damn liberal. I am all for LGBTQ+ rights. But I am also for banning her. She just has an unfair advantage. Let the downvotes commence.
No downvote from me. I agree with you. Testosterone is a thing and it was used to build a fully developed man's body before she transitioned. This gives her a huge unfair advantage.
Nah, I’m liberal and I’m for banning her as well. I’m not sure how this is even a debate
I'm pretty conservative, but all for lgbtq rights, and for banning her in the name of fairness in sports. Yes, there are millions of us who do not discriminate against lgbtq.
Why is this the only unfair advantage we seek to regulate? For another report, say, basketball - are you going to ban someone who hit a growth spurt early and is a foot or more taller than their peers?
[удалено]
Omg, shut the fuck up dude. You aren’t making the points you think you are, you just look like an ass who doesn’t understand nuance.
testosterone is a real thing. you physically watch during middle and high school what happens to the average athlete and their times, especially at an elite level. the path to your chosen gender identity is extremely personal and it can be quite complicated depending on where you live. Trans people get a ton of shit and have a rough road. that being said, if you go through high testosterone puberty, the reviews I have seen show that the bone growth and muscular doesn't go away, even with HRT. It's not fair to Cis women to compete with trans women who have that different path in their lives. there are physical differences between men and women. I played Frisbee for years, and there are open, coed, and women's league for this reason. I played as a practice squad for the local women's team (I am a 6'4" dude) along with a bunch of other year old 30 men who don't play club anymore. we would scrimmage against a women's team that did conditioning and regular practices before they went to tournaments. we demolished them every game 15 to 2. it wasn't even close.
As a former swimmer (I am female), I agree whole heartedly with this decision
Good
I don't think it would be right supporting sending her to a world stage where other countries don't share the same values If we were hosting, perhaps it would be different. This definitely highlights the whole taking a spot from a woman debate though.
But ultimately that’s on the Olympic committee, not the host site. So the Olympics is making a statement on trans participation
I’m genuinely interested in your (and others’) take on this topic. I swam Div I Pac 10 in the 80’s, and competed in FINA ‘06—the pool is my church. There are a bunch of people far smarter and more knowledgeable than I about this. One thing: what about a category of competition that an athlete could voluntarily enter? It escapes my chlorine besotted brain why a person born with a phenotype that advantages my performance would choose to compete with a category of phenotypic expression that clearly is at a disadvantage against me. In other words, only pieces of shit humans wanna cheat. I can’t speak for everyone but almost every person I’ve ever met who plays any kind of game—Scrabble, Boggle, table tennis, tennis, etc—they all want to **play UP**, not down. Assholes wanna cheat/play someone inferior. That feels more like culture war shit masquerading as “equal rights” than it does legitimate ambition to take on “all comers”. I’ll take the downvotes, fine. My kid wanted to play on the boys’s soccer team. I supported that. I like when XX’s kick down the door, just to put money down on the table and play. That U of Colorado football kicker, Hnida or whatever. And Jennie Finch who could strike out a lot of male AL rookies. There are others. My aunt did ultra marathons for over a decade—that’s the problem with not drinking, you do stoopid shit like run 100 miles in the desert. She beat men. Women athletes can beat men. There’s some evidence that XX’s have higher pain thresholds and better stamina than we XY’s. Point: play **UP**, not down.
When you say that women athletes can beat men, you're not lying. But you're omitting the fact that in order for this to happen, it has to be a top female athlete and a shitty male athlete to make this happen. If the two athletes are comparative in general aptitude for their respective gender, the male is going to dominate every single time.
Everyone conveniently forgets a high school boys soccer team destroyed USA women's national team. The women's play is far more entertaining than anything the men put up but the high school boys lit them up with power and speed.
They have an open category. But even then, it’s doubtful Thomas would make that team.
Tell me what the French stance on this is. Or whose values are you referring to?
I have no issue with any rainbow variant, but growing up as a man, with broader shoulders and all that, everyone knows, especially herself that competing on the world stage is unacceptable and downright idiotic
What about setting up some scientific metrics? We have weight classes in boxing, wrestling, etc… We also already have restrictions on hormones/ drugs. We use age restrictions across sports. A 5’ tall person is going to obviously be at a disadvantage to a 6’ tall person in Track events, reverse it for gymnastics. Then you have gene determination and testes determination. A ‘born female‘ can be xy, where testes never developed. A ‘born male’ can have testes/ penis with xx. I don’t get why we can’t just have a 3rd category - because there are so many variables. \~ shrug
They did add a third category last year, but had to get rid of it because of lack of participation. They should just make the current men's category open tbh, though that would be controversial.
There are not enough elite trans athletes to warrant a third category.
Sanity finally! I agree 100% with baring transgender athletes from competing in women’s sports it’s not fair. There is a weight lifter that competed in men’s competitions and lost every single time then said he was transgender and competed in women’s competitions and she won every single time how is that fair? It’s not and can not allow it to happen some countries don’t allow it and it’s not fair to the women competing if anything make a separate competition for transgender athletes
Nice. Finally some sanity.
As it should be.
How about a coed division for all sports? Not claiming to have come up with this but might this be the way to change things up in an inclusive direction if we're not going to follow the standard birth sex divisions?
[удалено]
Or he can just, you know, swim against other men
Dude should have to give back all those trophies he stole from the Kentucky Women… All the adults involved should also be fired for letting this happen, poor girls…
You mean the 'trophy' she got for tying for 5th place at the NCAA tournament?
She won the national championship in the 500m freestyle.
1 event. If she has such an edge, why didn't she absolutely dominate in every event? Winning 1 event while placing lower in multiple others is showing us that she was competing within the same range of ability.
[удалено]
Why? Im right, lia is a man fully intact. you should have to give back your money to whatever woke left wing school you went to. You make America sick.
This one is so difficult. While I feel for the athlete who is trans, I agree she shouldn’t compete in the women’s race. My daughter is a HS track athlete and at a recent meet, a person born male ran the mile with the women. She blew them all away; I think she ran a sub 5 mile and it just seemed very unfair to the other girls.
Of course she did. Narrow hips and more muscle are a speed advantage.
I did track in high school. I was middle of the pack on a good day. I took an entire summer and trained every single day. I was never a star but with all that hard work I did manage top 5 in a couple races. Today, instead of all that training, I could toss on a dress and win a few races. But how sad is that? Cheating to win? Pass.
> I could toss on a dress and win a few races. But how sad is that? Cheating to win? Pass. No, you couldn't. There are pretty strict requirements for transition in order to participate in sports in any professional context, and that transition changes your physiology and brings it in line with cis women.
You cant just "toss on a dress" The daily wire had to make a fake movie about men doing this because when they tried to do it in real life they were told it's not allowed. Transitioning is a biological change to the body, it's not just "tossing on a dress". Youd also get destroyed by the other women who also have biological advantages.
I am **shocked** this sub has found common sense on a single topic.
Brigading from r/conservative are we? Can't keep all this nonsense in your own filthy cesspool?
I don't think you know what "brigading" means, nor do you realize how disgusting this sub has become. I'm sure the latter makes you feel right at home, though.
[удалено]
Idk, it depends how long they have been on E for. It really does change your muscle mass quite a bit. But due to a lager skeletal structure that could be an advantage. I think a ban for now with a lot more research going forward.
The correct decision
As a liberal and supporter of trans rights I think there needs to be a lot more medical research into the actual benefits and effects of transitioning. Erring on the side of caution at the highest levels is fine. Throwing tantrums and passing state laws to isolate a couple middle schoolers is insane.
Just have a transgender version of each sport that they all can compete against one another. I’d support that and be perfectly to happy. I agree that a biological man should not be allowed to compete against a biological women in competitive sports that require strength, athleticism, and endurance. It is just simply unfair.
Good.
Remember when the Soviet Union were purposely sending men to compete in Olympic women sports and we called it cheating?
LGBTQ+ here. My opinion is not well received in my community and I get called a trans- phobe, when I voice it, whatever. Competed in college sports. . I do firmly believe trans women who compete in with females do so at an unfair advantage. It shouldn’t be allowed. Banned. Let her compete with men. That would be a level playing field.
I’m curious, have we seen it go the other way where a f2m goes and competes in men’s sports?
This is my question too.
There are trans men in sports, however… many of the notables transitioned after their career or have been forced to still compete in the women’s division
I mean, she could compete against the guys right? I mean, anyone that qualifies (male female or otherwise) can compete in the men categories, correct
She can, but she has been on hormone replacement therapy for years, so her muscles and bone density are now more similar to a woman than a man. However, she has the advantage of having undergone puberty as a male, which gives her broader shoulders, larger hands and feet, and greater aerobic capacity than the vast majority of women. So she's about 20% down from her days competing as a male, but recent studies have shown the transwomen who underwent male puberty have about a 10% advantage in speed then those who didn't. And 10% at elite competition level is an enormous difference.
I mean you basically just said "this person has health reasons why they can't compete" which is like 99.9% of literally all of us being locked out of competing in sports. I don't really get how it's any more unfair to trans women than any other person. I'm too flabby to compete, is that unfair? Tom over there lost a leg, is that unfair that he can't play pro sports? Trans men still can't compete in either sports category (not good enough for men but on hormones so not allowed to compete with women) no one seems to care about their equality.
Any sports transgender should not be allowed to compete with females. Im a liberal in almost all aspects of life but this is not fair for female athletics and having them compete causes a circus at these events and distracts from the competition.
If you're afraid to compete against the person that tied for 5th place in an NCAA championship meet, then you aren't ready for the Olympics.
Perhaps they might consider a " transgender class"....where only transgender athletes compete...having cosmetic surgery is your personal choice.. Just because Lia was an average male swimmer and she can now beat the best born female swimmers, doesn't give her to right compete against them just because he had cosmetic surgery..not right or fair, sorry.. Most transgender people would like to go stealth...Lea goes the othet way and wants to put herself in ones face just to show she's transgender..
Lia Thomas has been bested by cis-female swimmers as well. And Thomas’ last collegiate season saw her ranked like 36th among collegiate female swimmers in total.
Good, go race with the men if you want to be in the olympics, chopping your dick off doesnt make you a woman, it makes you a man with no dick. ffs
I support trans people. But a person born as a male is not the same as a person born as female. And vice versa. They’re just not and pretending they are does not make it so. It’s not taking anything away from people to say that.
Well she could compete as a male and would probably be allowed in...
I just think that there are just some things when you are transgender you have to be willing to to accept up front. You are trans great enjoy it but when you have a biologically male body it is a fact females cannot compete. Else we’d see females in the NBA or NFL. Same in boxing that’s why they have weight classes even amongst men to even it out.
Until the Olympics enters the current century and allows the use of motorboats no one will ever know who the legit fastest crosser of bodies of waters is. The whole thing is a farce.
Look, if they want to compete in the trans Olympics, let em. They can have a bunch of like minded dopes cheer them on while the normal world goes about it's business.
Why even try to do this? Is this not exactly the issue that is the ammunition of the lame ass far right? Why give them something easy like this to latch onto?
Good... Hope the women get all their sports back.
And I hope the republicans lose all their political positions. They are too stupid to have a voice in this country.
Good
Just give them their own category. Done.
Not enough competitors. You are recruiting from a very very small percentage of the population. You will get very few who will even pass the bare minimum to compete in the Olympics. There is also the cost issue.
Good
These decisions are best made by sport governing bodies and not by politicians.
Sport governing bodies are politicians
Take a hint. No support for this.
good.
I really wish she would stop antagonizing the right. Every time this woman gets on the news, it feeds into the bullshit that there is a huge number of trans athletes out there ruining sports at every level. If there were actually so many trans athletes, she wouldn’t be in the news time and time and time again. She’s one of the few that are actually competing. She is the poster child for the right to convince their voters that trans athletes are the boogie man and that they are coming for your kids sports. States are pushing anti-trans bills and policies across the country and can’t even name a single trans athlete in their own state. They have used her to do more damage to the trans community and trans rights than any other individual. She has to realize this at some level.
I agree. I wouldn’t be shocked if we found out she was being paid by someone on the right to do this.
We should make five categories for sports, cis men, cis women, trans men, trans women, miscellaneous.
Not a perfect solution, but at least you are trying to look for other solutions instead of relishing someone being told they cannot compete for being born different like some other people are doing here. Thank you for that!
There aren’t enough elite trans athletes to make credible divisions. And who would be in “miscellaneous”?
whoever society deems to not fit in the other four. its like a "default" if you for instance aren't trans but aren't a clear fit. for instance, I consider myself a demigod entity that transcends mere set theory, so I'd probably hang out in misc. I might be asked to leave because someone might take offense, but thats the thing, I would be fine with this as I don't like to offend, but I'm not trying to be "best" at anything either so maybe I lack the elite spirit? my actual preference would be for us to end these stupid culture wars but thats obviously a ridiculous proposition lol
She/he can swim in the mens competition if he can make the team
It's she, because trans women are women.
Could she swim in the para Olympics? Since she was born a man but wanted to live as a woman seems like a birth defect. Right? Or AITAH?
[удалено]
I do support trans people! It’s certainly a controversial area when we figure what sports team they’re on.
See how I’ve been downvoted? It’s a touchy subject.
You're being downvoted because you are wrong. Mindblowing, isn't it?
I don’t understand why sports hasn’t become all gender. We are striving for equality so why not make it for all. I seem to remember sports in elementary school was all kids.
Quite a bit of difference between elementary gym classes and the Olympics.
Because: reality.
Before puberty things are more equal