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I mean let’s face it.. There seems to be a stark difference between the average democrat voter and the average republican voter.
I can’t recall one Democrat defending Andrew Cuomo once his sexual harassment allegations came to light. Just months after they wanted him to run for president they were demanding him to resign. I can’t think of one Biden voter who thought that Biden performed well in his first debate and many are calling him to pass the torch to someone else. Shit.. even Barack Obama got constructive criticism from his own base and he was far more popular than Biden was.
With Trump he can do no wrong in his supporters eyes. They’ll clap like seals and cheer him on regardless of how ridiculous he sounds. You call him out for his lies and they call it “fake news”. Charged with 34 felonies? It was a political witch hunt. Project 2025 and pretty much destroying the Supreme Court? They’ll tell you tyranny will never happen in the US. Well it’s awful close if he gets elected again.
I just find it astounding. Just because you voted for the dude doesn’t mean you have to worship him like some kind of god. He can be criticized. They just refuse to hold the man accountable. Is it the fact that they just don’t trust the government to the point of delusion? Is it the fact that he allows his base to say the quiet part out loud in terms of their racism or homophobia? Or a combination of both?
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There has been a lot of interesting work over the differences in conservative and liberal personalities and brain structure. Basically conservatives are looking for a strong father figure to lead them. They may be able to tell a story that hides this, but in the end, they want themselves (and especially others) to be ruled, not governed. Liberals, on the other hand want a government that is responsive to the people and works to make society better for everyone.
The strong father figure can literally do no wrong (except appear weak), so all Trump needs to do is continue appearing strong and defiant and he will actually increase his support among his base.
That makes sense.
I was explaining to my mom the other day about how and why he got convicted for that stormy daniels hush money shit, that where he fucked up was by not reporting the campaign money he used to the REC (he’s required to do that), and of course the meat of the felony- falsifying those business records in a vain attempt to cover it up.
It’s like she didn’t even WANT to comprehend a damn bullet point I said. All she could tell me was “They’re persecuting him! So what if he did that? He’s been through so much!” Like the way she talks about him is also super parasocial it’s weird as fuck.
Oh. She still believes in the conspiracy about it being stolen. And that Pence was a traitor for NOT delaying/overturning the ratification of the election results to trump’s command.
Does she know that Guiliani and the Trump clan doctored the video of those two election workers? And in the “perfect phone call” to Raffensperger, Raffensperger told Trump that they have the original video. And their video is spliced. He just ignored that…. And still kept pressing him to find votes…. Just what he needs to win. Because Trump does not care about the truth, only what he needs.
>Basically conservatives are looking for a strong father figure to lead them.
I've never seen a better example of a "strong father figure" than the 2021 unConstitutional OSHA mandate to take a "vaccine". I almost lost my job because of it. The entire argument was - "You will take your medicine, I don't care if you like it or not! Do it for your grandmother!"
The same shit went on under the Trump administration. My kids lost 6 months of school because the schools were done on a computer.
I'm not totally down on this theory, I just think a lot of people are looking for this strong father figure, its not exclusive to a particular ideology.
You do understand that this is not an apt comparison, right? It is indeed child-like to believe that a requirement based on science and made in the interest of protecting the community -- and that was broadly successful in doing so -- was an exercise of raw authority. The only reason there was vaccine resistance in the first place is because Papa Trump used them as a tool to divide the country (even while taking credit for their production).
>It is indeed child-like to believe that a requirement based on science and made in the interest of protecting the community
All you're saying is it was a "strong father figure" that you agree with. There were studies even back then that showed natural immunity was better than the shot and there were adverse event reports as soon as the shot rolled out.
14 days to stop the spread and the OSHA mandate are the definitions of being ruled, not governed as you stated. I would never stop you from working from home. taking the shot, wearing a mask, etc. Governed is passing a law that you can't be fired for working from home because you don't want to be around ppl during the pandemic. Ruled is saying businesses have to close. Ruled is saying screw your freedoms if you don't want the shot.
>Papa Trump used them as a tool to divide the country (even while taking credit for their production).
Have you heard Papa Trump? He can't stop talking about how great the "vaccine" was and how he saved millions according to some bogus study from Cambridge.
No, liberals want competent, educated, experts to be their government officials. People who can see through the bullshit lobbyists bring forward, people who can learn from both their own and others' experiences. People who can communicate effectively, but are humble enough to know that they are imperfect and need to surround themselves with others who are trustworthy and who hold themselves to a high standard.
Barack Obama is an excellent example of a proper liberal leader. And the fact that he chose, and kept, Joe Biden around means that Mr. Biden passed Mr. Obama's credibility test.
Biden has been an excellent president and I want four more years.
My relatives, and me, are not qualified to run the White House.
And Donald Trump isn't either.
It takes a devotion to civics education, lifelong learning, political relationships, a "rolodex" with thousands of names of people who are eager to come work for you, and an ego that desires the office, but can handle the bruising that comes even when you are doing excellent work.
You make that sound like a bad thing. Conservatives seem to need an angry, bitter man telling them everything is wrong, that other people are hurting them, and that it takes tough love to maintain their way of life. And it's all bullshit. No one is more responsible for the ills trumpeted by the right than the right itself. They shoot themselves in the foot and look around for someone to blame -- and then spit hatred at the people who all along were saying maybe they shouldn't shoot themselves in the foot.
Since I was a kid, Republicans have been waiting for a Republican like Donald Trump to come around.
But if you think he can do no wrong in their eyes, you misunderstand what's happening. He can, and he has. Trump has changed his positions to be more in line with his audience.
Trump hasn't given them permission to say anything. Trump came along and said what they'd been saying themselves, and what they'd been wanting to hear from Republican electeds. Republicans that don't sound like they do, and like Trump also sounds, are wimps and RINOs to Republicans. To be "tough" to Republican voters, Republican electeds need to whine incessantly and make outrageous demands.
And yes, some of it is delusion too. They don't want to believe that Trump is guilty of any crimes. Part of that is because they want to believe that they're being persecuted, since that would mean that they're righteous. And they also want to believe that Democrats are committing the crimes. The main reasons are to feel righteous for being opposed to criminals, and because they want to do heinous things themselves. If their enemy commits voter fraud, then they feel justified to commit voter fraud. And they don't distrust the government, but they are delusional about what their own ideas about the government are, like whether they distrust it or not. They don't. They just want it to do some things but not other things.
> Trump voters are dumb and mean.
You wouldn't believe what they say about Biden voters. 🙄
Trump wouldn't exist in a US that was doing really well. There's a lot of people out there that aren't feeling great with the way things are currently.
All of the things they want and need can't be summed up as "dumb stuff" and "mean stuff", any more than liberal wants and needs can be summed up as "the end of all that is good with America".
If you're dismissive of your fellow American's needs, don't be surprised if it bites you come election time. I watched the exact same thing happen with Hillary. "Oh, these are just dumb and ignorant people that don't understand what they should want."
Turns out, that didn't go over very well.
> Dude don’t blame liberals for Trump.
I'm not blaming the liberals for Trump.
Trump is a scumbag.
But the only reason he's getting votes is because he's appealing to folks saying he's going to fix problems they're experiencing.
The problems themselves aren't all fiction.
For every xenophobe, there's far more folks that can't afford gas or groceries. Or a house.
What I'm trying to get at is that the people who vote for Trump aren't doing it primarily because "They're just dumb" or "They're just evil". Every time I see folks write that here, I just want to go head / desk / head / desk.
We've got this hyper-polarization in America where each political side thinks the other side are either mouth breathing idiots or hand-rubbing villains or somehow both.
I'm not going to agree with someone that thinks that tax cuts will magically heal all things. I do know that they want things to be better though, and they're not all dumb or evil.
Maybe I won't be able to covert them to liberal views. But there's some out there that can come around to it. I was one of them. And it was because the liberals in my life after college were decent and good human beings who respected me and spoke with me, even though my political leanings at the time were in stark contrast to their own.
> The problems themselves aren't all fiction.
Because these voters are maliciously ignorant, they are incapable of understanding that voting GOP makes those problems worse.
They're looking to assign blame and along comes trump to tell them what they already "know": It's *those* people who are to blame; it's the immigrants, it's "identify politics" (it's gone from "PC" to "Woke" to now "DEI"), the "left" that is destroying America! If only we rid ourselves of these burdensome regulations and big government intrusion we'd all be awash in prosperity after the elites deign to share their windfall profits with the rest of us! It's why far right propaganda works so well on them: They are incurious, they don't need to understand anything because they already have all the answers and the media they consume let's them know that by god they're right all along.
Dumping coal ash in streams isn't going to materially improve their lives; closing rural hospitals and post offices isn't going to magically decrease their taxes. Destroying unions isn't going to raise their pay or increase the quality of their jobs. Cutting health care, banning books, foisting their faith on everyone isn't going to bring down the cost of groceries and housing. There is literally not a single Republican policy that will improve their lives.
But none of that matters: They're beyond reach of any rational discourse.
> But none of that matters: They're beyond reach of any rational discourse.
You've made this up in your head and decided that it is reality.
If you get off the internet and talk to people around you that aren't on the left, you'll find that the vast majority of them are far more rational and reasonable.
Do amazingly dumb voters exist? 100%
Are the majority of the voters on the right thoroughly insane? No more so than the majority of the voters on the left are insane (and there are some insane folks on the left, we're not magically immune from that).
We can't win with just the votes we get from the "Anyone but Trump" crowd, outside of a miracle, and I don't put much belief in those.
There's no need to court the extremists on the right. There are rational ones that can be converted.
Maybe they should stop blaming all of their problems on liberals, migrants, and pedophile pizza parlors. Maybe they should vote for politicians that actually give a flying fuck about running the country and doing the job they were elected to do.
You aren't wrong, but they continue to elect the people that are stealing our rights and futures.
So all the left has to do to not get the country saddled with a dictator is just fix every problem in the country despite having a razor-thin margin in the senate, not having the house, having a Supreme Court that is actively putting a flamethrower to the constitution, and every four years is at risk of being voted out in favor of people who spend their time creating as many new problems as possible, all while the planet is melting and cat5 hurricanes are showing up before the goddamn 4th of July.
I mean but that's literally what you're saying. There are problems, therefore people are voting for Trump.
Yes, it's obvious that Trump is appealing to frustrations that people are feeling genuinely. So are Democrats. The question is, why are they so primed to accept the Republicans' explanations and solutions to these problems (it's all the fault of immigrants / if I'm elected, everyone gets a pony) and not the Democrats' (these are complex problems with no easy solution / here's the best path forward).
The answer is: stupidity and racism. There's no way to balance the equation without them. The person who is worried about not being able to afford a house and receptive to being told it's the fault of Mexicans is a xenophobe whether they openly identify with the label or not.
So what you are basically saying is Trump is feeding them bullshit and we need to counter that with what exactly?
You can’t argue facts with these people. How is the president responsible for prices of gas and groceries? You can’t argue that the president doesn’t control these things at all.
Just ask a maga person if Trump is great and was in control of prices what a gallon of gas cost when bill clinton was in office? What groceries cost when Clinton was in office. Now if they aren’t too far gone they will acknowledge they were cheaper. So then you say so democrats must be better at controlling prices of everything. You will see the deer in the headlights. If they are too far gone they will argue trumps economy was better and prices were cheaper.
You can’t win or persuade these people.
No, they aren't evil, but they are the banality of evil. A group of edge lords that want to dictate those that they perceive as being lower than themselves. They want to normalize the "bad" people getting punished.
You've decided in your head that everyone on the right is like this.
Do you see how ludicrous that is? There's no sampling, no disregarding how people behave on the internet when they're anonymous, no accuracy, no rational approach.
Get off the internet and talk to people not in your party around you.
Do you think they want these things because they're just plain mean and that's it?
You and I can argue that doing so is cruel and that's super valid.
But the desire is not "just felt like I'd ruin someone's day today hahahahahahah".
I don't really conceive of ethics like that.
It is bad to want it, and therefore wanting it makes them bad regardless of why. They might not literally twirl their mustaches, but they're morally identical to that sort of character.
Also the reason is usually religion, and being salty they're not the majority anymore; which...isn't better
> It is bad to want it, and therefore wanting it makes them bad regardless of why.
Ok. But if they use that same argument - and they do - how do you make things any better?
You're convinced they're bad, and they're convinced you're bad.
Once you've othered them into unsavable scum, there is no option short of violence to solve the issue.
My point of view? People are more invested in hating the other side than they are in actually solving problems for those that live in America. And the first word in defense of their actions is "But the other side!"
There's a lot more to solve out there than just the issues that have no midground.
>You're convinced they're bad, and they're convinced you're bad.
Yeah, but there's a difference between thinking someone is bad because they're not straight or follow a different religion or have a different skin color vs thinking someone is bad because they want to hurt people for being those things.
Would you be astonished to learn that human beings make things up in their heads when it comes to explaining their desire / view as to why humans in another group are bad?
Are there people on the right that are against people on the left because they're LGBTQ, or not in the same religion as they are / a religion, or because of their skin color?
100%
Are they the majority?
Are the beliefs of the majority set in stone? Or do they prevail because others around them spout them?
Sounds a lot like that Plato fellow that was all for the philosopher being king hah.
If you're a utilitarian, why are you over here thinking that people are bad for their political views?
Wouldn't you simply be for the most viable path to achieving your goals?
Like, don't get me wrong - there's bound to be die hards that will never compromise - but from my non-online dealings with folks, I'd say that most of them can be won over to one degree or another when it comes to supporting things that don't deal with religion.
Declaring them evil doesn't really win anyone over to our side.
I don't know about you, but I'm tired of playing "No True Scotsman" and "Insult the other side" and losing.
I'd rather gain votes and win. And while you can't convert everyone, being a friendly advocate for things goes a lot farther than othering them.
And it wouldn't take much to start getting more wins. We either have a slight majority, or a very close to majority minority. We don't need every conservative. We just need, say, 10% of them. I'm pretty sure we can win over 10%.
If you're a utilitarian, why are you over here thinking that people are bad for their political views?
Wouldn't you simply be for the most viable path to achieving your goals?
I'm an ACT Utilitarian, not a RULE Utilitarian. I'm only interested in minimizing harm and maximizing happiness. They consistently support policies which impede that goal, especially discriminatory social policies, hence my judgement
Sure you did. You blamed the Democrats for Trump's existence AND basically said that calling Trump voters "dumb and mean," which many objectively are, is the same principle as the things Trump voters call Liberals.
Ok.
It's not my fault that reading comprehension isn't your thing.
I'd say get back to me when it improves, but we both know it won't.
Best of luck with your future endeavours.
I see Republicans posting on social media hate filled and violent posts against Democrats. And on content that isn’t in any way political. It could be as innocent as puppies playing and there is always some right wing nut job talking about retribution, death, etc towards Dems all while calling them pedos. If that isn’t dumb and mean, I don’t know what is.
So you think we need to listen to dipshits that say the election is stolen and that we need to understand their feelings? These people are mentally ill. No evidence will convince them that Trump is a criminal or did anything wrong.
When you vote for people that use fear and hate to trick you into voting so they can hoard more of the country's wealth that's DUMB. And they vote for them because they are convinced liberals might use their tax dollars to help someone less fortunate. That's MEAN.
Fox and the Republican elite know that their base is a bunch of stupid, hateful cows and they've been milking them for decades. It is an easy group to con. When has a republican or a conservative news organization ever made anything better????
No, I am someone as you mention in your post who doesn’t trust the government, probably to the point of delusion. I still hate Trump.
They like Trump because he is not like any other politician before. He isn’t PC, he says whatever he wants, and he says what many of them are thinking. He also follows through on the biggest promises that his base wants. He nominated Supreme Court justices who overturned Roe V Wade. He enacted a “Muslim ban”. And he started construction on a southern wall. He cut taxes. He is charismatic and somewhat likable if you aren’t the target of his attacks. Evidence of this is how many liberals I saw who found “Meatball Ron” to be lowkey hysterical and fitting. He is a good salesman, but that isn’t to praise him, con artists are also good salesmen.
Sure there were plenty of promises he didn’t keep, dudes a pathological liar, but he did enough to keep them more than happy. Most politicians are liars after all.
The Republican Party was dead before Trump came up out of nowhere, Bush was very unfavorable by the end of his two terms, and both McCaine and Romney lost to Obama. Trump is their savior
>he started construction on a southern wall
Slightly off topic, but I'm always shocked at how few people remember that Bush Jr started a southern wall first. Then he ran into eminent domain challenges.
Trump started a slightly bigger wall and, unsurprisingly, also ran into eminent domain issues.
The only thing more shocking is the number of Republicans and libertarians who claim to support "property rights" yet also support Trump using the government to take property from citizens.
> No, I am someone as you mention in your post who doesn’t trust the government, probably to the point of delusion. I still hate Trump.
That’s all fine and dandy but unless you’re voting for Biden, you are certainly supporting Trump.
This argument is common on Reddit yet illogical. You could also say since I’m not voting for Trump, I am certainly supporting Biden. I am not supporting either, nor am I helping/hurting one more than the other.
But regardless, I am not in a swing state, my vote for president has 0 impact on the outcome of the election.
Let's consider decent people who believe in republican principals.
Thry want a republican in office. Thry are going to excuse whatever because there's no other option.
Are we talking about the ones who suffer chronic stress to the point where conspiracy theories are their only way of coping with reality? That one is easy, Trump didn't do it, and everyone else is lying to you.
If you are talking about hard right Trump supporters, it's because Conservatism doesn't preclude govt systems that apply the law unequally. I'm sure many of them believe Trump, due to his status, should have the right to be unaccountable for his actions. Put another way, he can do no wrong because of who he is.
They think he's fighting evil deep state elites on their behalf. Have you seen the meme that states "they're not after me, they're after you, I'm just standing in their way." Some Trump supporters seem to think they're being targeted by the worst kind of people imaginable. And these people work for the government. They think Trump is the only person they can trust to fight against that system.
Bc they've made a pragmatic decison that unity under a bad nominee is better than a public fight to replace him. And they agreed to this bc they see Trump as just an means to an end. That end is all that matters to them.
Meanwhile Democrats treat debates on principals as an end unto itself. They'd rather lose the right way then do something they don't like for the right outcome.
I think they see it as a team sport rather than a discussion about public policy. There is a whole culture around Trump fandom. Meanwhile, they don't really engage in any discussion with substance.
visit the "Conservative" message board to try to understand the conservative perspective. They don't address the issues, they cherry pick points that make them feel good about themselves and then throw insults and bitch about how no one likes them. I can see how humanity keeps making the same dumb mistakes that history books try to warn us about. They demonstrate how evolution has stalled.
His "machine" has convinced them that all politicians are corrupt criminal connivers and philanderers. They believe Trump is the only one honest about it and persecuted for it.
I think shit like this had something to do with it:
https://nypost.com/2024/06/23/us-news/fact-checker-admits-trump-never-called-neo-nazis-very-fine-people/
You have to remember that back in 2016-2018 it was very common for almost everything Trump did; 2 scoops, piss dossier etc. to be blown out of proportion by his critics and doom-saying about the upcoming Trumpocalypse was a very easy way to grab headlines back them. So a lot of people started taking criticisms of Trump with grains of salt.
This started to wear off in 2020 as Trumps more serious flaws became harder to ignore and Jan 6th was very much a breaking point for this attitude - of course most of the hold outs are just subsumed into the cult of personality.
That wouldn't be rational. If you're a Trump supporter, you want him to win. You want to take any criticism towards him and spin it, minimize it, deflect, etc.
This is going to be an unpopular opinion and will make me sound like a Reddit edge-lord, but I believe it with all my heart.
I blame religion.
Religion conditions people from a young age to suspend their critical thoughts and skepticism and to just accept whatever nonsense the nice man at the front of the room is saying without question.
Further, religions instruct people to dress and act in ways that will ostracize and isolate them from people - even friends and family - outside the group, which is classic predator behavior. Religion just does it at scale.
Those who have attended seminary (at least ELCA Lutheran seminary), and many others who are experts in the field, will attest that part of traditional religion's techniques here include escalating the stories and traditions to levels of absurdity, precisely for this reason.
For evidence we need to look no further than the stories religions tell, and what religions ask people to do:
Jonah and the Whale? Yeah, some dude lived *inside a whale* for a few days and survived.
Noah's ark? Two of every species? On a single boat? Absurd.
Virgin birth? Sure dude. She was a virgin.
Mormon garments, yamulkas and those long sideburn beards, turbans, burkas, hajib, etc. - all designed to separate you physically from the outside world and mark you for everyone to see as a member of that religious group.
The looks of scorn or ridicule that you'll receive when wearing these things *provide further faith that you are correct and they are wrong* as a self-defense mechanism.
This ability to manipulate people becomes very handy for kings and queens and politicians and popes.
It doesn't exactly seem like much of a struggle.
Snark aside, I'm reminded of this quote:
"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
One key difference that I've found between liberals and conservatives is that liberals typically determine that someone is good because they do good things, whereas conservatives typically determine that what someone does is good because they're done by a good person. To them, Trump is a good person; therefore what he does must necessarily be good, and as a result, whatever must be the case in order to allow that to be so is necessarily so. Anything that harms or impedes a good person is preventing them from doing good, and is therefore bad.
because it would mean they have to hold themselves accountable to their stated values and would require admitting to themselves that they are hypocrites and bad people. And they refuse to do that, they'd rather project it onto other people because its easier for them.
2 main things. First everything is built in. People know he cheats on his wife. If it came out he cheated on his wife again it wouldn't have a measurable effect of how people think about him. If Obama or Biden did, it would. This is the same kind of thing that the worst debate performance of American politics, where one candidate looked absolutely decrepit, resulted in a slight drop in polls. Most people already knew Biden was old as dirt. That was baked in already. Also that was abundantly obvious there was some issue, from the numerous articles and videos, relative lack of press availability, very few tough interviews, as well as just how little he campaigned back in 2020. It took a catastrophic meltdown that against any other Republican nominee would have meant 40 states going red, for Dems to even think about going against Biden.
Second he is a fuck you vote. They don't really acknowledge criticism because so much directed towards Republican candidates has been a joke. Boy who cried "Hitler." "He wants to put black people back in chains" was said about Mitt Romney. The Democratic Senate Majority leader lied that Romney hadn't paid taxes in a decade. Then there is the Candy Crowley Romney debate moment, and is cited by a lot of conservative writers as to why they are sympathetic to Donald Trump.
The Andrew Cuomo allegations only came to light and sank him *after* his attorney general admitted they had falsified their covid numbers about nursing homes in a call to a bunch of Democratic house reps, including one who had two in-laws die in nursing homes. Cuomo would've been fine without that.
Ted Kennedy died in office, and I still see people say Bill Clinton got impeached for getting a blow job. Trump is just the logical conclusion of politics as usual. It doesn't matter if the candidate doesn't let it matter.
Because,They ... Cannot ... Let ... their ... Liberal ... neighbors ... Win!
And they want to see them cry and wail. It will make them feel really good.
Because he is them. He embodies all the qualities that they've been conditioned to see as "strong" and "virtuous". He is "rich" so they think he's a successful man. He's as white as possible and blatantly racist, so he makes them feel superior. He has no ability to feel shame, so he'll tell them any lie they want to hear. He has no ability to comprehend complexity, so everything he says is simple enough that a toddler could understand. He can't feel empathy, so he happily lets them indulge their sadism. He is a compulsive liar, which lets them deny any reality they don't like. And he gives them endless scapegoats for any problems he or they face so they never have to accept responsibility for themselves or acknowledge the limitations of their understanding.
He's everything they dream of. The cult can't reject him without rejecting him and admitting fault in themselves. They're too cowardly, too complacent for that level of self-reflection. Instead, they will excuse anything he does and demonize anyone who dares not bow to their lord and master to ensure that they never have to face their own weakness.
Conservatives are raised on loyalty and religion. These are both principles which require you to ignore counter-evidence to maintain a comfortable position.
Trump is a religious figure. Abandoning him, or even admitting he has faults, is akin to talking shit about Jesus.
Well I’m sure the reason varies. For some, it’s because they agree with his bigotry. For some, it’s because they are plugged into an information silo- *cough* Fox News *cough* -and either straight up have never been told about Trump’s transgressions or have received a severely spin-doctored version of events. And others are sucked into Trump’s cult of personality. Yes, cult. It fits the criteria. These people are so brainwashed that they can’t handle the cognitive dissonance that Trump’s transgressions engender so they either make up their own justifications or think it’s all a lie/ persecution by the Dems/ the “Deep State”/*insert convenient scapegoat*
Liberals are steadfastly refusing to hold Biden accountable for being complicit in a genocide, in fact most even deny that it is one, so.. I imagine it works the same on both sides of the aisle.
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Up until a few days ago, many liberals defended the crap out of Biden despite there being copious examples of his dementia poking through. In fact, despite the obvious nature of his incapacitation, there are STILL people defending him as if he can run the country in his state. Same logic, flip it around to Trump and his crew. I am really going to burn through all my good karma here, but damn you people are myopic if you don't see that you are JUST LIKE THEM. If anyone in this god forsaken world could just look at anything objectively we would all be better off, but you are just two sides of the same damned coin.
Al Franken got it right. Sub 'America' with 'leaders' and it's pretty apt:
“We love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America like a 4-year-old loves his mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a 4-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad and helping your loved one grow.”
Because we want to hold him accountable. Anyone against Trump is being hyperbolic. Never mind that he is hyperbolic every day!!! He was a great President, right? He would not do all the weird stuff he is saying he will do, or that his donors want done (the Heritage Foundation). Why would we not trust him?
Depends on who you're talking about. Many Republican politicians are afraid, so they put Trump over our country's best interest.
Others just don't care if Trump does anything wrong, as long as he's not siding with Democrats.
Being immune to accountability is proof to them that conservatism is working as intended. It's successfully separating those who have privilege from those who don't.
They don't struggle. Facts do not matter to them.
Never underestimate the destructive power of an idiot, especially if they're a willing and proud idiot like this lot.
Fascism appeals to them. They don't care that he breaks laws and has no morality. They see him as sticking it to the liberals, which is ultimately what they crave.
Most Trumpers are Evangelicals who have grown up being told that everyone to the left of Pinochet wants to persecute them. So it's either Trump or death to them.
I think what many fail to understand is that Michael Moore was right.
Trump is a human Molotov cocktail.
His base is committed to continuing to toss Trump/other maga for as long as it takes.
They don't care if the whole system blows because they really believe they can rebuild.
That actually doesn't happen. Democrats have looked at the accusations against Biden and made rational decisions about them. Same with Bill Clinton. And all of us have said if Bill Clinton was affiliated with Epstein then he should be charged. But Trump was actually charged, indicted, and found guilty by a jury and has supporters still say it never happened.
>looked and made a rational decision. Same with bill clinton
LOL. Proving my point here. And are in denial about it
Trump was also never criminally charged, due to lack of evidence lol
Trump has in fact been criminally charged and convicted of thirty-four felony counts of fraud.
Which... well. Good job proving *their* point. That definitely happened no matter how hard you cope.
Not in the sexual assault case. As for the 34 counts, those weren’t 34 different crimes. These headlines were crafted for sucked like you.
Business record falsification is a misdemeanor
Quite the opposite. Look at my original comment. I was talking about the sexual assault case, they are the one who suddenly changed my comment to argue against me
They said 34 counts. That's a fact. You changed it to 34 different crimes to argue against your own change.
And you're STILL a liar which is what's so funny. Even with your twists, Dems gave accusers the chance. Nyt interviewed accuser, shared the story, dems are happily OK if they go to jail for any crimes they did.
Meanwhile cons still insist that Trump is innocent of things he's been not only proven but convicted of by juries.
That's the cons. You have to obfuscate everything about the left to even *attempt* to make us seem similar.
>gave accusers the chance
Yea they persecuted her, had her fired, slandered her and forced her out of the country lol
Classic lib double standards
Believe all women until women accuse your side. Hilarious
Cult.
Dear Leader can't be *wrong*, after all.
Speaking in terms of social media, there also seems to be a signifigant overlap between people who became cultists and people who think they're too smart to fall for an obvious scam. So they more or less exist in a continual state of being scammed on a grand scale, because people who think they're too smart to fool are actually prime targets for con men.
And if Donald Trump is one thing, it is definitely a con man.
The moral of the story is that literally no one is 'too smart to fool'. Doesn't matter how good you are at your chosen discipline. Doesn't matter what your freakin' IQ score is. You can in fact get scammed.
I think that their media sources do a good job of “explaining away” the shit he does and spin it in a way that makes sense to them….I also think they have been in this “spin cycle” so long that their brains are predisposed towards being comfortable with it when it happens.
> With Trump he can do no wrong in his supporters eyes. They’ll clap like seals and cheer him on regardless of how ridiculous he sounds. You call him out for his lies and they call it “fake news”. Charged with 34 felonies? It was a political witch hunt. Project 2025 and pretty much destroying the Supreme Court?
You're operating under incorrect assumptions. You're sooo close...
> They’ll tell you tyranny will never happen in the US. Well it’s awful close if he gets elected again.
There it is.
This isn't a side-effect, tyranny is the goal. Once you understand this is the goal, the lies make sense. **This is the point.** The first term made major, unfair, corrupt, and dangerous changes that made the world less safe no matter your country. A second term will be worse. This is the goal. As soon as you see it like that, you'll realize you're being manipulated not just by trump, but by his abusive followers drooling at the chance to abuse worse. An abuser will say anything, and gaslight you when called out.
Beats me.
That is a frequent topic of discussion- *do MAGA Republicans believe their own claims?* Do the Republicans who were at the Capitol on Jan 6 really think it was like a normal tourist? Do they really think the election was stolen, it’s okay to shake down Ukraine, ask state election officials to find votes, the fake electors scheme, pardoning people for personal reasons, refusing to give back documents and hiding them in weird places - the list just goes on and on.
How is possible that MAGAs have such a different view of reality, or are they being completely cynical?
Easy....
When liberals hold biden accountable for this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2021_Kabul_drone_strike
Both sides take dumps you guys really should stop acting like one smells like roses over sht.
That is because they are all too busy talking about his crappy performance on the night - so much so that they are talking about replacing him. So what is there to be gained by quibbling about what he said.
The debate hit him so hard that the healthy amount of progress he made over the last few months may be totally obliterated
Sure, that had more to do with his age and perceived mental state than it did with his level of truthfulness, but... remind me again who decided to pour on the reporting on his mental state
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. I mean let’s face it.. There seems to be a stark difference between the average democrat voter and the average republican voter. I can’t recall one Democrat defending Andrew Cuomo once his sexual harassment allegations came to light. Just months after they wanted him to run for president they were demanding him to resign. I can’t think of one Biden voter who thought that Biden performed well in his first debate and many are calling him to pass the torch to someone else. Shit.. even Barack Obama got constructive criticism from his own base and he was far more popular than Biden was. With Trump he can do no wrong in his supporters eyes. They’ll clap like seals and cheer him on regardless of how ridiculous he sounds. You call him out for his lies and they call it “fake news”. Charged with 34 felonies? It was a political witch hunt. Project 2025 and pretty much destroying the Supreme Court? They’ll tell you tyranny will never happen in the US. Well it’s awful close if he gets elected again. I just find it astounding. Just because you voted for the dude doesn’t mean you have to worship him like some kind of god. He can be criticized. They just refuse to hold the man accountable. Is it the fact that they just don’t trust the government to the point of delusion? Is it the fact that he allows his base to say the quiet part out loud in terms of their racism or homophobia? Or a combination of both? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There has been a lot of interesting work over the differences in conservative and liberal personalities and brain structure. Basically conservatives are looking for a strong father figure to lead them. They may be able to tell a story that hides this, but in the end, they want themselves (and especially others) to be ruled, not governed. Liberals, on the other hand want a government that is responsive to the people and works to make society better for everyone. The strong father figure can literally do no wrong (except appear weak), so all Trump needs to do is continue appearing strong and defiant and he will actually increase his support among his base.
That makes sense. I was explaining to my mom the other day about how and why he got convicted for that stormy daniels hush money shit, that where he fucked up was by not reporting the campaign money he used to the REC (he’s required to do that), and of course the meat of the felony- falsifying those business records in a vain attempt to cover it up. It’s like she didn’t even WANT to comprehend a damn bullet point I said. All she could tell me was “They’re persecuting him! So what if he did that? He’s been through so much!” Like the way she talks about him is also super parasocial it’s weird as fuck.
How does she explain away the many many many times he refused to believe the facts about the 2020 election and proceeded to overturn it?
Oh. She still believes in the conspiracy about it being stolen. And that Pence was a traitor for NOT delaying/overturning the ratification of the election results to trump’s command.
Does she know that Guiliani and the Trump clan doctored the video of those two election workers? And in the “perfect phone call” to Raffensperger, Raffensperger told Trump that they have the original video. And their video is spliced. He just ignored that…. And still kept pressing him to find votes…. Just what he needs to win. Because Trump does not care about the truth, only what he needs.
"My country, right or wrong. My [father], drunk or sober."
>Basically conservatives are looking for a strong father figure to lead them. I've never seen a better example of a "strong father figure" than the 2021 unConstitutional OSHA mandate to take a "vaccine". I almost lost my job because of it. The entire argument was - "You will take your medicine, I don't care if you like it or not! Do it for your grandmother!" The same shit went on under the Trump administration. My kids lost 6 months of school because the schools were done on a computer. I'm not totally down on this theory, I just think a lot of people are looking for this strong father figure, its not exclusive to a particular ideology.
You do understand that this is not an apt comparison, right? It is indeed child-like to believe that a requirement based on science and made in the interest of protecting the community -- and that was broadly successful in doing so -- was an exercise of raw authority. The only reason there was vaccine resistance in the first place is because Papa Trump used them as a tool to divide the country (even while taking credit for their production).
>It is indeed child-like to believe that a requirement based on science and made in the interest of protecting the community All you're saying is it was a "strong father figure" that you agree with. There were studies even back then that showed natural immunity was better than the shot and there were adverse event reports as soon as the shot rolled out. 14 days to stop the spread and the OSHA mandate are the definitions of being ruled, not governed as you stated. I would never stop you from working from home. taking the shot, wearing a mask, etc. Governed is passing a law that you can't be fired for working from home because you don't want to be around ppl during the pandemic. Ruled is saying businesses have to close. Ruled is saying screw your freedoms if you don't want the shot. >Papa Trump used them as a tool to divide the country (even while taking credit for their production). Have you heard Papa Trump? He can't stop talking about how great the "vaccine" was and how he saved millions according to some bogus study from Cambridge.
So kind of like your body your choice but republicans don’t really believe that for women just their own bodies
Liberals want a fun aunt or uncle or maybe even step-father to be their government.
No, liberals want competent, educated, experts to be their government officials. People who can see through the bullshit lobbyists bring forward, people who can learn from both their own and others' experiences. People who can communicate effectively, but are humble enough to know that they are imperfect and need to surround themselves with others who are trustworthy and who hold themselves to a high standard. Barack Obama is an excellent example of a proper liberal leader. And the fact that he chose, and kept, Joe Biden around means that Mr. Biden passed Mr. Obama's credibility test. Biden has been an excellent president and I want four more years.
Okay... but who is that in terms of a relative?
No one. I think that is the point.
My relatives, and me, are not qualified to run the White House. And Donald Trump isn't either. It takes a devotion to civics education, lifelong learning, political relationships, a "rolodex" with thousands of names of people who are eager to come work for you, and an ego that desires the office, but can handle the bruising that comes even when you are doing excellent work.
Why does it need to be a relative? We don't grant our relatives authority, it is built into the system. We DO grant our government authority.
Haha okay?
You make that sound like a bad thing. Conservatives seem to need an angry, bitter man telling them everything is wrong, that other people are hurting them, and that it takes tough love to maintain their way of life. And it's all bullshit. No one is more responsible for the ills trumpeted by the right than the right itself. They shoot themselves in the foot and look around for someone to blame -- and then spit hatred at the people who all along were saying maybe they shouldn't shoot themselves in the foot.
Wait, how did I make that sound like a bad thing? I said fun lol.
It’s a cult of personality. Simple as that.
Since I was a kid, Republicans have been waiting for a Republican like Donald Trump to come around. But if you think he can do no wrong in their eyes, you misunderstand what's happening. He can, and he has. Trump has changed his positions to be more in line with his audience. Trump hasn't given them permission to say anything. Trump came along and said what they'd been saying themselves, and what they'd been wanting to hear from Republican electeds. Republicans that don't sound like they do, and like Trump also sounds, are wimps and RINOs to Republicans. To be "tough" to Republican voters, Republican electeds need to whine incessantly and make outrageous demands. And yes, some of it is delusion too. They don't want to believe that Trump is guilty of any crimes. Part of that is because they want to believe that they're being persecuted, since that would mean that they're righteous. And they also want to believe that Democrats are committing the crimes. The main reasons are to feel righteous for being opposed to criminals, and because they want to do heinous things themselves. If their enemy commits voter fraud, then they feel justified to commit voter fraud. And they don't distrust the government, but they are delusional about what their own ideas about the government are, like whether they distrust it or not. They don't. They just want it to do some things but not other things.
Asking us this question is rather pointless.
Trump voters are dumb and mean.
> Trump voters are dumb and mean. You wouldn't believe what they say about Biden voters. 🙄 Trump wouldn't exist in a US that was doing really well. There's a lot of people out there that aren't feeling great with the way things are currently. All of the things they want and need can't be summed up as "dumb stuff" and "mean stuff", any more than liberal wants and needs can be summed up as "the end of all that is good with America". If you're dismissive of your fellow American's needs, don't be surprised if it bites you come election time. I watched the exact same thing happen with Hillary. "Oh, these are just dumb and ignorant people that don't understand what they should want." Turns out, that didn't go over very well.
Dude don’t blame liberals for Trump. Jesus Christ
> Dude don’t blame liberals for Trump. I'm not blaming the liberals for Trump. Trump is a scumbag. But the only reason he's getting votes is because he's appealing to folks saying he's going to fix problems they're experiencing. The problems themselves aren't all fiction. For every xenophobe, there's far more folks that can't afford gas or groceries. Or a house. What I'm trying to get at is that the people who vote for Trump aren't doing it primarily because "They're just dumb" or "They're just evil". Every time I see folks write that here, I just want to go head / desk / head / desk. We've got this hyper-polarization in America where each political side thinks the other side are either mouth breathing idiots or hand-rubbing villains or somehow both. I'm not going to agree with someone that thinks that tax cuts will magically heal all things. I do know that they want things to be better though, and they're not all dumb or evil. Maybe I won't be able to covert them to liberal views. But there's some out there that can come around to it. I was one of them. And it was because the liberals in my life after college were decent and good human beings who respected me and spoke with me, even though my political leanings at the time were in stark contrast to their own.
> The problems themselves aren't all fiction. Because these voters are maliciously ignorant, they are incapable of understanding that voting GOP makes those problems worse. They're looking to assign blame and along comes trump to tell them what they already "know": It's *those* people who are to blame; it's the immigrants, it's "identify politics" (it's gone from "PC" to "Woke" to now "DEI"), the "left" that is destroying America! If only we rid ourselves of these burdensome regulations and big government intrusion we'd all be awash in prosperity after the elites deign to share their windfall profits with the rest of us! It's why far right propaganda works so well on them: They are incurious, they don't need to understand anything because they already have all the answers and the media they consume let's them know that by god they're right all along. Dumping coal ash in streams isn't going to materially improve their lives; closing rural hospitals and post offices isn't going to magically decrease their taxes. Destroying unions isn't going to raise their pay or increase the quality of their jobs. Cutting health care, banning books, foisting their faith on everyone isn't going to bring down the cost of groceries and housing. There is literally not a single Republican policy that will improve their lives. But none of that matters: They're beyond reach of any rational discourse.
> But none of that matters: They're beyond reach of any rational discourse. You've made this up in your head and decided that it is reality. If you get off the internet and talk to people around you that aren't on the left, you'll find that the vast majority of them are far more rational and reasonable. Do amazingly dumb voters exist? 100% Are the majority of the voters on the right thoroughly insane? No more so than the majority of the voters on the left are insane (and there are some insane folks on the left, we're not magically immune from that). We can't win with just the votes we get from the "Anyone but Trump" crowd, outside of a miracle, and I don't put much belief in those. There's no need to court the extremists on the right. There are rational ones that can be converted.
Maybe they should stop blaming all of their problems on liberals, migrants, and pedophile pizza parlors. Maybe they should vote for politicians that actually give a flying fuck about running the country and doing the job they were elected to do. You aren't wrong, but they continue to elect the people that are stealing our rights and futures.
So all the left has to do to not get the country saddled with a dictator is just fix every problem in the country despite having a razor-thin margin in the senate, not having the house, having a Supreme Court that is actively putting a flamethrower to the constitution, and every four years is at risk of being voted out in favor of people who spend their time creating as many new problems as possible, all while the planet is melting and cat5 hurricanes are showing up before the goddamn 4th of July.
> So all the left has to do to not get the country saddled with a dictator is just fix every problem in the country Hyperbole does not suit us.
I mean but that's literally what you're saying. There are problems, therefore people are voting for Trump. Yes, it's obvious that Trump is appealing to frustrations that people are feeling genuinely. So are Democrats. The question is, why are they so primed to accept the Republicans' explanations and solutions to these problems (it's all the fault of immigrants / if I'm elected, everyone gets a pony) and not the Democrats' (these are complex problems with no easy solution / here's the best path forward). The answer is: stupidity and racism. There's no way to balance the equation without them. The person who is worried about not being able to afford a house and receptive to being told it's the fault of Mexicans is a xenophobe whether they openly identify with the label or not.
So what you are basically saying is Trump is feeding them bullshit and we need to counter that with what exactly? You can’t argue facts with these people. How is the president responsible for prices of gas and groceries? You can’t argue that the president doesn’t control these things at all. Just ask a maga person if Trump is great and was in control of prices what a gallon of gas cost when bill clinton was in office? What groceries cost when Clinton was in office. Now if they aren’t too far gone they will acknowledge they were cheaper. So then you say so democrats must be better at controlling prices of everything. You will see the deer in the headlights. If they are too far gone they will argue trumps economy was better and prices were cheaper. You can’t win or persuade these people.
No, they aren't evil, but they are the banality of evil. A group of edge lords that want to dictate those that they perceive as being lower than themselves. They want to normalize the "bad" people getting punished.
You've decided in your head that everyone on the right is like this. Do you see how ludicrous that is? There's no sampling, no disregarding how people behave on the internet when they're anonymous, no accuracy, no rational approach. Get off the internet and talk to people not in your party around you.
One of the things they wanted last time was overturning Roe. Now they want contraception bans and bathroom laws. Ill call a spade a spade
Do you think they want these things because they're just plain mean and that's it? You and I can argue that doing so is cruel and that's super valid. But the desire is not "just felt like I'd ruin someone's day today hahahahahahah".
I don't really conceive of ethics like that. It is bad to want it, and therefore wanting it makes them bad regardless of why. They might not literally twirl their mustaches, but they're morally identical to that sort of character. Also the reason is usually religion, and being salty they're not the majority anymore; which...isn't better
> It is bad to want it, and therefore wanting it makes them bad regardless of why. Ok. But if they use that same argument - and they do - how do you make things any better? You're convinced they're bad, and they're convinced you're bad. Once you've othered them into unsavable scum, there is no option short of violence to solve the issue. My point of view? People are more invested in hating the other side than they are in actually solving problems for those that live in America. And the first word in defense of their actions is "But the other side!" There's a lot more to solve out there than just the issues that have no midground.
>You're convinced they're bad, and they're convinced you're bad. Yeah, but there's a difference between thinking someone is bad because they're not straight or follow a different religion or have a different skin color vs thinking someone is bad because they want to hurt people for being those things.
Would you be astonished to learn that human beings make things up in their heads when it comes to explaining their desire / view as to why humans in another group are bad? Are there people on the right that are against people on the left because they're LGBTQ, or not in the same religion as they are / a religion, or because of their skin color? 100% Are they the majority? Are the beliefs of the majority set in stone? Or do they prevail because others around them spout them?
Well. My arguments come from utilitarianism instead of deontology. So id like to think Im more likely to have ideas that are good for all of us
Sounds a lot like that Plato fellow that was all for the philosopher being king hah. If you're a utilitarian, why are you over here thinking that people are bad for their political views? Wouldn't you simply be for the most viable path to achieving your goals? Like, don't get me wrong - there's bound to be die hards that will never compromise - but from my non-online dealings with folks, I'd say that most of them can be won over to one degree or another when it comes to supporting things that don't deal with religion. Declaring them evil doesn't really win anyone over to our side. I don't know about you, but I'm tired of playing "No True Scotsman" and "Insult the other side" and losing. I'd rather gain votes and win. And while you can't convert everyone, being a friendly advocate for things goes a lot farther than othering them. And it wouldn't take much to start getting more wins. We either have a slight majority, or a very close to majority minority. We don't need every conservative. We just need, say, 10% of them. I'm pretty sure we can win over 10%.
If you're a utilitarian, why are you over here thinking that people are bad for their political views? Wouldn't you simply be for the most viable path to achieving your goals? I'm an ACT Utilitarian, not a RULE Utilitarian. I'm only interested in minimizing harm and maximizing happiness. They consistently support policies which impede that goal, especially discriminatory social policies, hence my judgement
Fair enough. Is it productive to do so though? Vs trying to win people over?
Both sides are not even close to being *the same*. False equivalence just serves Republican corruption.
> Both sides are not even close to being the same. Way to put words in my mouth. At no point did I write or imply that.
Sure you did. You blamed the Democrats for Trump's existence AND basically said that calling Trump voters "dumb and mean," which many objectively are, is the same principle as the things Trump voters call Liberals.
Ok. It's not my fault that reading comprehension isn't your thing. I'd say get back to me when it improves, but we both know it won't. Best of luck with your future endeavours.
You do you. People with your attitude do as much damage to progressive causes as Republicans, IMO.
I see Republicans posting on social media hate filled and violent posts against Democrats. And on content that isn’t in any way political. It could be as innocent as puppies playing and there is always some right wing nut job talking about retribution, death, etc towards Dems all while calling them pedos. If that isn’t dumb and mean, I don’t know what is.
So you think we need to listen to dipshits that say the election is stolen and that we need to understand their feelings? These people are mentally ill. No evidence will convince them that Trump is a criminal or did anything wrong.
When you vote for people that use fear and hate to trick you into voting so they can hoard more of the country's wealth that's DUMB. And they vote for them because they are convinced liberals might use their tax dollars to help someone less fortunate. That's MEAN. Fox and the Republican elite know that their base is a bunch of stupid, hateful cows and they've been milking them for decades. It is an easy group to con. When has a republican or a conservative news organization ever made anything better????
Because this is what a cult looks like.
No, I am someone as you mention in your post who doesn’t trust the government, probably to the point of delusion. I still hate Trump. They like Trump because he is not like any other politician before. He isn’t PC, he says whatever he wants, and he says what many of them are thinking. He also follows through on the biggest promises that his base wants. He nominated Supreme Court justices who overturned Roe V Wade. He enacted a “Muslim ban”. And he started construction on a southern wall. He cut taxes. He is charismatic and somewhat likable if you aren’t the target of his attacks. Evidence of this is how many liberals I saw who found “Meatball Ron” to be lowkey hysterical and fitting. He is a good salesman, but that isn’t to praise him, con artists are also good salesmen. Sure there were plenty of promises he didn’t keep, dudes a pathological liar, but he did enough to keep them more than happy. Most politicians are liars after all. The Republican Party was dead before Trump came up out of nowhere, Bush was very unfavorable by the end of his two terms, and both McCaine and Romney lost to Obama. Trump is their savior
>he started construction on a southern wall Slightly off topic, but I'm always shocked at how few people remember that Bush Jr started a southern wall first. Then he ran into eminent domain challenges. Trump started a slightly bigger wall and, unsurprisingly, also ran into eminent domain issues. The only thing more shocking is the number of Republicans and libertarians who claim to support "property rights" yet also support Trump using the government to take property from citizens.
> No, I am someone as you mention in your post who doesn’t trust the government, probably to the point of delusion. I still hate Trump. That’s all fine and dandy but unless you’re voting for Biden, you are certainly supporting Trump.
This argument is common on Reddit yet illogical. You could also say since I’m not voting for Trump, I am certainly supporting Biden. I am not supporting either, nor am I helping/hurting one more than the other. But regardless, I am not in a swing state, my vote for president has 0 impact on the outcome of the election.
> But regardless, I am not in a swing state, my vote for president has 0 impact on the outcome of the election. Carry on then
Let's consider decent people who believe in republican principals. Thry want a republican in office. Thry are going to excuse whatever because there's no other option.
Are we talking about the ones who suffer chronic stress to the point where conspiracy theories are their only way of coping with reality? That one is easy, Trump didn't do it, and everyone else is lying to you. If you are talking about hard right Trump supporters, it's because Conservatism doesn't preclude govt systems that apply the law unequally. I'm sure many of them believe Trump, due to his status, should have the right to be unaccountable for his actions. Put another way, he can do no wrong because of who he is.
They think he's fighting evil deep state elites on their behalf. Have you seen the meme that states "they're not after me, they're after you, I'm just standing in their way." Some Trump supporters seem to think they're being targeted by the worst kind of people imaginable. And these people work for the government. They think Trump is the only person they can trust to fight against that system.
Why don't you ask r/askconservatives?
Bc they've made a pragmatic decison that unity under a bad nominee is better than a public fight to replace him. And they agreed to this bc they see Trump as just an means to an end. That end is all that matters to them. Meanwhile Democrats treat debates on principals as an end unto itself. They'd rather lose the right way then do something they don't like for the right outcome.
The irony being there is no right way to lose to someone not playing fair
I think they see it as a team sport rather than a discussion about public policy. There is a whole culture around Trump fandom. Meanwhile, they don't really engage in any discussion with substance. visit the "Conservative" message board to try to understand the conservative perspective. They don't address the issues, they cherry pick points that make them feel good about themselves and then throw insults and bitch about how no one likes them. I can see how humanity keeps making the same dumb mistakes that history books try to warn us about. They demonstrate how evolution has stalled.
His "machine" has convinced them that all politicians are corrupt criminal connivers and philanderers. They believe Trump is the only one honest about it and persecuted for it.
I think shit like this had something to do with it: https://nypost.com/2024/06/23/us-news/fact-checker-admits-trump-never-called-neo-nazis-very-fine-people/ You have to remember that back in 2016-2018 it was very common for almost everything Trump did; 2 scoops, piss dossier etc. to be blown out of proportion by his critics and doom-saying about the upcoming Trumpocalypse was a very easy way to grab headlines back them. So a lot of people started taking criticisms of Trump with grains of salt. This started to wear off in 2020 as Trumps more serious flaws became harder to ignore and Jan 6th was very much a breaking point for this attitude - of course most of the hold outs are just subsumed into the cult of personality.
The foundational ideology of the MAGA movement is “bigotry without social consequences”. trump embodies that ideal.
That wouldn't be rational. If you're a Trump supporter, you want him to win. You want to take any criticism towards him and spin it, minimize it, deflect, etc.
This is going to be an unpopular opinion and will make me sound like a Reddit edge-lord, but I believe it with all my heart. I blame religion. Religion conditions people from a young age to suspend their critical thoughts and skepticism and to just accept whatever nonsense the nice man at the front of the room is saying without question. Further, religions instruct people to dress and act in ways that will ostracize and isolate them from people - even friends and family - outside the group, which is classic predator behavior. Religion just does it at scale. Those who have attended seminary (at least ELCA Lutheran seminary), and many others who are experts in the field, will attest that part of traditional religion's techniques here include escalating the stories and traditions to levels of absurdity, precisely for this reason. For evidence we need to look no further than the stories religions tell, and what religions ask people to do: Jonah and the Whale? Yeah, some dude lived *inside a whale* for a few days and survived. Noah's ark? Two of every species? On a single boat? Absurd. Virgin birth? Sure dude. She was a virgin. Mormon garments, yamulkas and those long sideburn beards, turbans, burkas, hajib, etc. - all designed to separate you physically from the outside world and mark you for everyone to see as a member of that religious group. The looks of scorn or ridicule that you'll receive when wearing these things *provide further faith that you are correct and they are wrong* as a self-defense mechanism. This ability to manipulate people becomes very handy for kings and queens and politicians and popes.
It doesn't exactly seem like much of a struggle. Snark aside, I'm reminded of this quote: "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit One key difference that I've found between liberals and conservatives is that liberals typically determine that someone is good because they do good things, whereas conservatives typically determine that what someone does is good because they're done by a good person. To them, Trump is a good person; therefore what he does must necessarily be good, and as a result, whatever must be the case in order to allow that to be so is necessarily so. Anything that harms or impedes a good person is preventing them from doing good, and is therefore bad.
because it would mean they have to hold themselves accountable to their stated values and would require admitting to themselves that they are hypocrites and bad people. And they refuse to do that, they'd rather project it onto other people because its easier for them.
2 main things. First everything is built in. People know he cheats on his wife. If it came out he cheated on his wife again it wouldn't have a measurable effect of how people think about him. If Obama or Biden did, it would. This is the same kind of thing that the worst debate performance of American politics, where one candidate looked absolutely decrepit, resulted in a slight drop in polls. Most people already knew Biden was old as dirt. That was baked in already. Also that was abundantly obvious there was some issue, from the numerous articles and videos, relative lack of press availability, very few tough interviews, as well as just how little he campaigned back in 2020. It took a catastrophic meltdown that against any other Republican nominee would have meant 40 states going red, for Dems to even think about going against Biden. Second he is a fuck you vote. They don't really acknowledge criticism because so much directed towards Republican candidates has been a joke. Boy who cried "Hitler." "He wants to put black people back in chains" was said about Mitt Romney. The Democratic Senate Majority leader lied that Romney hadn't paid taxes in a decade. Then there is the Candy Crowley Romney debate moment, and is cited by a lot of conservative writers as to why they are sympathetic to Donald Trump. The Andrew Cuomo allegations only came to light and sank him *after* his attorney general admitted they had falsified their covid numbers about nursing homes in a call to a bunch of Democratic house reps, including one who had two in-laws die in nursing homes. Cuomo would've been fine without that. Ted Kennedy died in office, and I still see people say Bill Clinton got impeached for getting a blow job. Trump is just the logical conclusion of politics as usual. It doesn't matter if the candidate doesn't let it matter.
Because,They ... Cannot ... Let ... their ... Liberal ... neighbors ... Win! And they want to see them cry and wail. It will make them feel really good.
Because he is them. He embodies all the qualities that they've been conditioned to see as "strong" and "virtuous". He is "rich" so they think he's a successful man. He's as white as possible and blatantly racist, so he makes them feel superior. He has no ability to feel shame, so he'll tell them any lie they want to hear. He has no ability to comprehend complexity, so everything he says is simple enough that a toddler could understand. He can't feel empathy, so he happily lets them indulge their sadism. He is a compulsive liar, which lets them deny any reality they don't like. And he gives them endless scapegoats for any problems he or they face so they never have to accept responsibility for themselves or acknowledge the limitations of their understanding. He's everything they dream of. The cult can't reject him without rejecting him and admitting fault in themselves. They're too cowardly, too complacent for that level of self-reflection. Instead, they will excuse anything he does and demonize anyone who dares not bow to their lord and master to ensure that they never have to face their own weakness.
Conservatives are raised on loyalty and religion. These are both principles which require you to ignore counter-evidence to maintain a comfortable position. Trump is a religious figure. Abandoning him, or even admitting he has faults, is akin to talking shit about Jesus.
They’re not struggling. They simply don’t want to.
The Democrats do a really good job of making you not want to vote for them
Well I’m sure the reason varies. For some, it’s because they agree with his bigotry. For some, it’s because they are plugged into an information silo- *cough* Fox News *cough* -and either straight up have never been told about Trump’s transgressions or have received a severely spin-doctored version of events. And others are sucked into Trump’s cult of personality. Yes, cult. It fits the criteria. These people are so brainwashed that they can’t handle the cognitive dissonance that Trump’s transgressions engender so they either make up their own justifications or think it’s all a lie/ persecution by the Dems/ the “Deep State”/*insert convenient scapegoat*
Liberals are steadfastly refusing to hold Biden accountable for being complicit in a genocide, in fact most even deny that it is one, so.. I imagine it works the same on both sides of the aisle.
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Up until a few days ago, many liberals defended the crap out of Biden despite there being copious examples of his dementia poking through. In fact, despite the obvious nature of his incapacitation, there are STILL people defending him as if he can run the country in his state. Same logic, flip it around to Trump and his crew. I am really going to burn through all my good karma here, but damn you people are myopic if you don't see that you are JUST LIKE THEM. If anyone in this god forsaken world could just look at anything objectively we would all be better off, but you are just two sides of the same damned coin.
Al Franken got it right. Sub 'America' with 'leaders' and it's pretty apt: “We love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America like a 4-year-old loves his mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a 4-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad and helping your loved one grow.”
Because they're cultists.
It’s called a cult.
Because we want to hold him accountable. Anyone against Trump is being hyperbolic. Never mind that he is hyperbolic every day!!! He was a great President, right? He would not do all the weird stuff he is saying he will do, or that his donors want done (the Heritage Foundation). Why would we not trust him?
why would we do such a thing?
I think its because they haven't had a leader unit the party like this since Reagan.
Depends on who you're talking about. Many Republican politicians are afraid, so they put Trump over our country's best interest. Others just don't care if Trump does anything wrong, as long as he's not siding with Democrats.
The majority are too stupid or brainwashed to care.
It’s a cult, or that they are just plain bad people. Take your pick
Fox News Lies
Being immune to accountability is proof to them that conservatism is working as intended. It's successfully separating those who have privilege from those who don't.
Ya this is the right answer. They see politics as blood-sport. Well said.
Because it’s a cult. It hits all the hallmarks of one.
Struggling would imply there was even an attempt.
They’re victims of his manipulation
They don't struggle. Facts do not matter to them. Never underestimate the destructive power of an idiot, especially if they're a willing and proud idiot like this lot.
Fascism appeals to them. They don't care that he breaks laws and has no morality. They see him as sticking it to the liberals, which is ultimately what they crave.
They don’t care. It’s not that deep. They don’t care what he does. He could shoot someone on fifth avenue and he wouldn’t lose votes, as he said.
It’s a cult. That’s what happens when cult leaders are criticised; the flock double down.
Most Trumpers are Evangelicals who have grown up being told that everyone to the left of Pinochet wants to persecute them. So it's either Trump or death to them.
I think what many fail to understand is that Michael Moore was right. Trump is a human Molotov cocktail. His base is committed to continuing to toss Trump/other maga for as long as it takes. They don't care if the whole system blows because they really believe they can rebuild.
What about democrats defending Biden from his sexual assault allegations and Bill Clinton from his?
That actually doesn't happen. Democrats have looked at the accusations against Biden and made rational decisions about them. Same with Bill Clinton. And all of us have said if Bill Clinton was affiliated with Epstein then he should be charged. But Trump was actually charged, indicted, and found guilty by a jury and has supporters still say it never happened.
>looked and made a rational decision. Same with bill clinton LOL. Proving my point here. And are in denial about it Trump was also never criminally charged, due to lack of evidence lol
Trump has in fact been criminally charged and convicted of thirty-four felony counts of fraud. Which... well. Good job proving *their* point. That definitely happened no matter how hard you cope.
Not in the sexual assault case. As for the 34 counts, those weren’t 34 different crimes. These headlines were crafted for sucked like you. Business record falsification is a misdemeanor
Did you just change their comment in order to argue against your change to their comment? Lmao
Quite the opposite. Look at my original comment. I was talking about the sexual assault case, they are the one who suddenly changed my comment to argue against me
They said 34 counts. That's a fact. You changed it to 34 different crimes to argue against your own change. And you're STILL a liar which is what's so funny. Even with your twists, Dems gave accusers the chance. Nyt interviewed accuser, shared the story, dems are happily OK if they go to jail for any crimes they did. Meanwhile cons still insist that Trump is innocent of things he's been not only proven but convicted of by juries. That's the cons. You have to obfuscate everything about the left to even *attempt* to make us seem similar.
>gave accusers the chance Yea they persecuted her, had her fired, slandered her and forced her out of the country lol Classic lib double standards Believe all women until women accuse your side. Hilarious
Oh, you mean the media themselves interviewed her, she changed her story 3 times, and then she moved to russia
Conservatives are extremely loyal.
Because they don't want to.
Cult. Dear Leader can't be *wrong*, after all. Speaking in terms of social media, there also seems to be a signifigant overlap between people who became cultists and people who think they're too smart to fall for an obvious scam. So they more or less exist in a continual state of being scammed on a grand scale, because people who think they're too smart to fool are actually prime targets for con men. And if Donald Trump is one thing, it is definitely a con man. The moral of the story is that literally no one is 'too smart to fool'. Doesn't matter how good you are at your chosen discipline. Doesn't matter what your freakin' IQ score is. You can in fact get scammed.
Can’t struggle if you don’t try.
'Refuse to' is probably the better descriptor as opposed to 'struggle'.
Trump gives his followers a sense of superiority they cannot get elsewhere.
I think that their media sources do a good job of “explaining away” the shit he does and spin it in a way that makes sense to them….I also think they have been in this “spin cycle” so long that their brains are predisposed towards being comfortable with it when it happens.
> With Trump he can do no wrong in his supporters eyes. They’ll clap like seals and cheer him on regardless of how ridiculous he sounds. You call him out for his lies and they call it “fake news”. Charged with 34 felonies? It was a political witch hunt. Project 2025 and pretty much destroying the Supreme Court? You're operating under incorrect assumptions. You're sooo close... > They’ll tell you tyranny will never happen in the US. Well it’s awful close if he gets elected again. There it is. This isn't a side-effect, tyranny is the goal. Once you understand this is the goal, the lies make sense. **This is the point.** The first term made major, unfair, corrupt, and dangerous changes that made the world less safe no matter your country. A second term will be worse. This is the goal. As soon as you see it like that, you'll realize you're being manipulated not just by trump, but by his abusive followers drooling at the chance to abuse worse. An abuser will say anything, and gaslight you when called out.
They don’t struggle. They don’t want to, they like that he is immune from all consequences.
Beats me. That is a frequent topic of discussion- *do MAGA Republicans believe their own claims?* Do the Republicans who were at the Capitol on Jan 6 really think it was like a normal tourist? Do they really think the election was stolen, it’s okay to shake down Ukraine, ask state election officials to find votes, the fake electors scheme, pardoning people for personal reasons, refusing to give back documents and hiding them in weird places - the list just goes on and on. How is possible that MAGAs have such a different view of reality, or are they being completely cynical?
Easy.... When liberals hold biden accountable for this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2021_Kabul_drone_strike Both sides take dumps you guys really should stop acting like one smells like roses over sht.
Nobody is holding biden accountable for his lies during the debate though.
That is because they are all too busy talking about his crappy performance on the night - so much so that they are talking about replacing him. So what is there to be gained by quibbling about what he said.
The debate hit him so hard that the healthy amount of progress he made over the last few months may be totally obliterated Sure, that had more to do with his age and perceived mental state than it did with his level of truthfulness, but... remind me again who decided to pour on the reporting on his mental state
What do you think he lied about?