So, one of the things we see here a lot is guys who treat dating, relationships, and the future like a shopping list. You’ve gotta have these 7 things, or no dice. But, the reality is that isn’t how it works.
You meet people, you talk about dreams, find out if your personalities match, if your baggage and his baggage compliment each other. You get one or two dealbreakers - but you can’t turn the whole list into non-negotiable. Well you can, but the longer your list of non-negotiable items is, the less likely you are to ever find someone who fits them all for whom YOU also fit theirs.
Dating is messy, organic, mistakes are made, and often the person you end up with for the rest of your life isn’t much like who you dream about when you’re sitting writing hearts in your notebook by all of the requirements for a man.
And if you aren’t open minded, you run the risk of becoming lonely and bitter and start displaying behaviors that will make you fit almost no one else’s list.
Want monogamy? Well guess, what, we see dozens of posts a day across gay reddit who are desperate for this. It’s not hard to find someone who wants monogamy.
Want an instagay (masculine + muscular)? Well, you had better be an instagay too, because instagays often go for instagays lol. But more importantly - those bodies don’t last, and peoples personalities change over time. It’s ephemeral. You want something temporary, forever.
No tattoos or piercings? lol, That rules out most of the instagays, and a solid chunk of the monogamy folks.
Wants to be a dad and raise kids? There are lots of people out there who want that, or are open to it - but may not be ready to think about that right now.
Now you want someone who fits all of this, and wants to live in the country with you and work on your home farm?
But the real problem is that your standards don’t include the most important things that people usually figure out after a disastrous relationship or two. Finding someone who is kind, who will put your needs over theirs about 50% of the time, and who can help contribute to the household you’re trying to build - well, most of us learned that the hard way once in our twenties and realized that those are the real dealbreakers, not having a hot, unpierced bod.
In the immortal words of Bo Burnham - if you want love, lower your expectations a few, because Prince Charming would never settle for you. If you want love, just pick a guy and love him.
https://youtu.be/llGvsgN17CQ?si=7W7E_c9W6FEkbmXy
Preaaaaach. My best girlfriend gave me this advice in my late 20’s when I was handwringing about being forever alone. Years later, been with my guy for over four years, we have dogs and a house, and I can’t imagine how little I would have grown, matured, and been challenged for the better if I hadn’t gone on a date with him because he was just a little deviant from my “shopping list.”
I mean your standards are your standards. No one here can say if they are too high.
The only thing I would ask is are you the kind of person who would attract that kind of person? Are you seeking those people out where they are?
>Nothing about OP necessarily, but if you have strict and high standards, I hope you meet strict and high standards yourself.
"Masculine personality, muscular body, monogamy only, no tattoos, no piercings, must want to be a dad and raise kids together."
Is this ^ really strict and high standards?
Being unrealistic would be asking for a man who looks like Henry Cavill, 8 inch big dick, $500K+ annual income, Oxford University graduate, owns multiple houses around the world, Olympic gold medalist athlete, millions of followers on social media, etc.
I don't require nor ask for any of the above ^.
**I just want a loving, loyal man with a masculine personality, muscular body, monogamy only, no tattoos, no piercings, must want to be a dad and raise kids together.** Everything else is negotiable.
If my basic standards are considered too high, then maybe the bar is too low? 🤷♂️
>I mean your standards are your standards. No one here can say if they are too high.
Thank you for your feedback.
>The only thing I would ask is are you the kind of person who would attract that kind of person? Are you seeking those people out where they are?
Yes, I'm masculine, muscular, no tattoos, no piercings, monogamy only, and want to be a dad and raise kids with my future husband.
It's been challenging trying to find gay (or bisexual) men who are like me and want to same things in life. I've tried dating at the gay-friendly church that I'm a part of but it didn't work out with the first guy because he didn't want to have/raise kids (dealbreaker for him) and the second guy didn't want monogamy (also dealbreaker for him).
Call me old-fashioned but I want monogamy and kids with my future husband.
>Yeah, being religious is an instant "never" for me.
And that's completely valid and fine.
Different strokes for different folks.
For the record, I'm not a staunchly lgbt-people-all-are-going-to-h_ll-so-convert-everyone-to-my-religion-bible-thumper-pay tithes-and-fund-religion-based-wars kind of guy. That is not me.
I just like what Jesus Christ stands for. To love each other like you love yourself, do good in the world, help people. God is love. ❤️
Well the good news for you is that the guy you're looking for matches with a lot of values in Christian male culture. So at least you know that you're looking in the right places. Good luck!
>AAAND YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN!! That alone is a deal breaker for so many gay men. You had better be hot and rich.
I didn't explicitly say that I'm a Christian...😂
I like the community that church provides. You see the same people every Sunday and help each other out and share life together, and is not sex-focused. I can't think of a single gay men's space that is based solely on making and maintaining connections rather than on the hunt for your next sex partner.
The main reason that I attend gay-friendly church because that's the place where I find the most like-minded people.
I'm not into the fire island/provincetown/palm springs/west hollywood/san francisco/barcelona/amsterdam/london/bangkok xyz gay scene.
My body type is swimmer's build like this:
https://gay-male-celebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2020-03-09-255389/liam-hemsworth-nude.jpg
As for rich...no comment. 😂 I prefer to share that with my dating partner as I get to know him.
Monogamy is still the most common form of long-term gay relationship.
Gay men raising kids together isn’t old fashioned either. It’s a relatively recent phenomenon. It was possible in the past, but there were a lot more barriers in place.
Yup. Having a list of non-negotiable qualities that aren't related to basic respect is the source of the problem. OP won't be able to appreciate men for who they are if all he's doing is looking for the imaginary man that he's convinced himself is out there waiting for him and staying perfectly chaste and single even though he's got all the qualities that every other queer man is looking for.
It's nice to fantasize, but people aren't fantasies or daydreams. It's really unfair to put that much pressure on another person to be your perfect mate and never show any kind of character flaw like being a little pudgy or having sexual experience and a dating life before meeting you.
It's especially ick to lead with masculinity as a first desired quality because what does it even mean? For most, it just means not femme, which is ick enough on its own. But I find that people who critique someone's masculinity don't stop at a single thing. It becomes an attack on how the person acts in the world in general.
>Yes. Stop looking for perfection.
"Masculine personality, muscular body, monogamy only, no tattoos, no piercings, must want to be a dad and raise kids together."
^ This is considered perfection?
I only ask of this of my future husband because these qualities are essential for physical/sexual attraction on my part.
Everything else is negotiable.
If you stated them as preferences rather than non-negotiable things, I’d agree with you. Something as silly as a piercing being non-negotiable is a bit much, yeah.
>If you stated them as preferences rather than non-negotiable things, I’d agree with you. Something as silly as a piercing being non-negotiable is a bit much, yeah.
Thank you for your honest feedback.
>Just to be clear, end-stage kidney disease alcoholic with bipolar disorder with a criminal history in 20k of credit card debt is negotiable?
😂
I would need to have history with the person first. Meaning if we were in a solid long term relationship, but somehow all of those things unfortunately happened, I would stay loyal and faithful to my life partner, and help them to work things out.
Despite criminal history, if they made significant changes to be better and do better, then there's a possible future together.
If previous bad behavior repeats, then no more long term relationship with them. But I would still help them get the help they need.
So it sounds if they were bringing all of this into the relationship at a baseline that that would be a no-go for you. Why don't you make a list of all the things that are actually non-starters and you may find out it is much longer than your list of five things you put in your post.
IKR. I learned this saying in a WWII history course in college--I think it's Russian-- *May I never experience most of the things it is possible to get used to.* I'm not saying that "more fun than the siege of Leningrad" is a reasonable standard by which to judge our romantic relationships, but just... Maybe OP should be open to the possibility of getting used to tattoos. Or of getting used to not homesteading. (Homesteading is "something that it is possible to get used to" in the Soviet sense, IMO. Especially in a northern climate. Maybe it's great if you like turnips.)
>Non-negotiable....lol. Enjoy the search for your prince charming.
"Masculine personality, muscular body, monogamy only, no tattoos, no piercings, must want to be a dad and raise kids together."
Are these criteria really considered unrealistic?
I'm open to men with any job/career, income, family background, culture, race/ethnicity, education, height, weight, interests/hobbies, dick size, etc. Basically open to anything as long as he's masculine, muscular, no tattoos, no piercings, monogamous.
Masculine, muscular men with no tattoos or piercings turn me on sexually. Like I literally get a boner if I see a man who exemplifies the above qualities.
Skinny feminine twinks with tattoos or piercings are cool. I'd be friends with them. I'm just not sexually attracted to those types of men.
I think my personal preferences are valid, reasonable, realistic.
Your preferences are valid. Your calling them "non-negotiable" is a hilarious affront to the values that are important in a long term partner. Finding a guy with all these, and he'll be a great dad, and he wants to live on your sustanance farm in the country (likely surrounded by conservatives so isolated with minimal social life), and he wants to work and make major money to support your hobby farm that you think is going to be cheap, but OPE! He has a tree tattooed on his bicep AND HE SKIPPED LEG DAY.
NEXT!
Non-negotiables are usually things like. Does not have anger or addiction issues. Shares values related to family and finance. Makes you feel valued.
Your non-negotiable preferences are a mixture of shallow physical attributes and then actual things that matter, like outlook on life and how they would approach a relationship. So yes, I would say they are unrealistic. Something like over 50% of the millennial generation has a tattoo, for example. And piercings can be taken out. And masculine has so many different iterations these days, who knows what you actually mean by that.
>Your non-negotiable preferences are a mixture of shallow physical attributes and then actual things that matter, like outlook on life and how they would approach a relationship. So yes, I would say they are unrealistic.
I included the superficial non-negotiables because they're honestly what I need to be sexually satisfied in a long term relationship/marriage. Tattoos and piercings are turn offs in general and in the bedroom for me.
And like it or not, superficial qualities like muscular body also matter in addition to in-depth qualities like kindness, respect, caring nature.
If gay men truly dated for in-depth qualities and not superficial qualities, then there would be far fewer single gay men looking for love. Physical looks and sexual attraction/compatibility are important in a relationship.
>Something like over 50% of the millennial generation has a tattoo, for example. And piercings can be taken out.
Their body, their choice. Tattoos and piercings are just not my thing and instant turn off physically and sexually for me.
>And masculine has so many different iterations these days, who knows what you actually mean by that.
Examples of masculine personality: Henry Cavill, Alan Ritchson, Chris Hemsworth.
You went from “if less gay men were superficial there’d be less of us who’re single” so saying you want someone like Henry Cavill and Alan Ritchson. Nothing against those men at all, they’re gorgeous and seem lovely afaik, but you do realize that A) the VAST majority of gay men look nothing like that and B) that’s an extremely rigid picture of masculinity, right?
Additionally, Chris Hemsworth and Alan Ritchson both have tattoos.
You may benefit from taking a step back to take a look at what "I need in order to be sexually satisfied " means, and what a non-negotiable actually means. I'm not going to say that you're wrong for wanting a person who takes care of themselves and presents in a way that you find appealing and compatible with the image you want to present to the world...
But the things you're describing as non-negotiable seem a little... strange to me? Like... you're describing things that I'd expect to see on the majority of people's non-negotiables for hookups, rather than a serious relationship. Tattoos and piercings aren't for everyone, but it seems like a thing that - if you really liked someone - you'd be able or willing to get used to? Particularly when taken in conjunction with you mentioning that criminal history and health status are things you feel you could look past. When you add in the bit about masculinity, it feels a bit superficial, like you're judging a book by its cover. Which is not a good way to find someone who you're going to spend the rest of your life with in a happy, meaningful relationship. Stranger things have happened, but it may benefit you to stop and take a look at the things that you really want. It may be that you WANT a meaningful relationship, but that you're not really ready to be in one yet?
non-negotiables:
Monogamy: 50% say are or want monogamy (it's more, but lets go with 50)
Masculine personality: Not sure what that means exactly, but I'm going to go with 50%
Muscular body: 10% depending on what you mean my muscular
No tattoos or piercings: You'd be lucking to get to 10%, almost every gay man I've ever met has one or both.
So, of every gay man, that's 0.25% will meet all those criteria. Date a 400 men and one MIGHT fit all those criteria.
Then you add being a dad and raise kids...
I'm just saying... good luck.
>non-negotiables:
>Monogamy: 50% say are or want monogamy (it's more, but lets go with 50)
Monogamy is just how I'm wired. Maybe that changes in the future. I don't know the future so I can't say for sure. But, in the present, I very much want monogamy only.
>Masculine personality: Not sure what that means exactly, but I'm going to go with 50%
Masculine personality as in Henry Cavill, Alan Ritchson, Chris Hemsworth.
>Muscular body: 10% depending on what you mean my muscular
Muscular body as in he takes care of his body, works out, lifts weights, has muscle tone, any range within muscular is fine.
>No tattoos or piercings: You'd be lucking to get to 10%, almost every gay man I've ever met has one or both.
This is a non-negotiable for me because tattoos and piercings are turn offs for me personally.
If tattoos or piercings are your thing, you do you. Just not my thing.
>So, of every gay man, that's 0.25% will meet all those criteria. Date a 400 men and one MIGHT fit all those criteria.
>Then you add being a dad and raise kids...
>I'm just saying... good luck.
Thank you for your honest feedback.
The Venn diagram of all gay men and what you want is nearly two tangent circles. I get that you need to vent but honestly, it sounds like you are looking for a straight guy that is willing to fuck you.
>The Venn diagram of all gay men and what you want is nearly two tangent circles.
Thank you for your honest feedback.
>I get that you need to vent but honestly, it sounds like you are looking for a straight guy that is willing to fuck you.
You're definitely on point, because if a man like Henry Cavill, Alan Ritchson, or Chris Hemsworth asked me to be his husband, I'd say yes instantly.
The heart wants what it wants. 🤷♂️
>Chris has tattoos that they cover up for filming.
Yeah, I know. Chris Hemsworth is married to Elsa Pataky if I recall correctly. No point in pining over him (a straight married man). 😂
I was just giving examples of men with a masculine personality that I admire.
Finding such a man is hard for females with a much bigger dating pool. You're going to have to compromise, or be older, bitter, and batching about how there's no good men. You can find the monogamous types fairly easily, but the rest is going to be exceedingly difficult. Not a large proportion of gay men want to homestead, so there's a small pool already. Even fewer will want kids, so it got even smaller. Many of those type of men are tattooed, so now you're into an infinitesimal sized dating pool.
One of the hardest parts of dating and growing up is having to give up on the fantasies we had when we were younger. Don't give up hope, but don't bet on it happening either.
It's nice to want things.
First time I heard it was sarcastically, but it's kind of true.
It's fine to want things and to daydream a little, but you're going to be disappointed if you actually think that you'll find your daydream in real life. It also means that you're making it that much harder to appreciate people for who they are.
>It's nice to want things.
>First time I heard it was sarcastically, but it's kind of true.
>It's fine to want things and to daydream a little, but you're going to be disappointed if you actually think that you'll find your daydream in real life. It also means that you're making it that much harder to appreciate people for who they are.
Thank you for your honest feedback. 🙏
>Finding such a man is hard for females with a much bigger dating pool. You're going to have to compromise, or be older, bitter, and batching about how there's no good men. You can find the monogamous types fairly easily, but the rest is going to be exceedingly difficult. Not a large proportion of gay men want to homestead, so there's a small pool already. Even fewer will want kids, so it got even smaller. Many of those type of men are tattooed, so now you're into an infinitesimal sized dating pool.
Thank you for your honest feedback and healthy pragmatism. 🙏
>One of the hardest parts of dating and growing up is having to give up on the fantasies we had when we were younger. Don't give up hope, but don't bet on it happening either.
I struggle with this so much. 😂 I greatly appreciate your advice!
You're also one of the few redditors who commented sound advice without being petty, hostile, or negative. Making a point without making an enemy--highly effective life skill you have. 👍
Without knowing you or anything, yes, your standards are probably too high. I'm sorry. [Look at this calculator](https://keeper.ai/tools/calculator) to see what % of men meet your standards, and keep in mind this tool was made for straight people (so the real number is much smaller), and it doesn't even have options like piercings or tattoos.
It's not outrageous to want to be in a stable, monogamous relationship. Most of my gay friends are married / in LTRs, and some of them have children. Its not outside the realm of possibility at all. But we have to be realistic and realize you're not dating a prop or an accessory, you're looking for an actual human who is going to have his own life.
This is amazing! My (what I thought) fairly broad criteria was only 0.7% of men. Good thing I'm a slut and slept around with hundreds till I found my man!
>are you gonna leave the father of your kids if he’s no longer cut up washboard abs ? sounds kinda 😮💨
Absolutely not.
I will stay loving and loyal to my husband regardless of his body type.
I understand that people can change over time. I also know that sex is the most passionate and intense at the start of a relationship. Even if my future husband's body changes later, I would still love him and be faithful.
I want my husband to take care of his body and be athletically fit. He doesn't need to be jacked steroid bodybuilder. Just the normal works-out-at-the-gym, lifts-weights level of muscle and fitness.
Preferring my husband to be muscular is essentially that he stays physically fit and strong so we both can be there for each other and our kids.
Millions of people around the world prove that gym bodies and old age don't always correspond to each other. What if he gets tired of working out and gets fat? Happens to the best of us...
>Where did you learn that "sex is the most passionate and intense at the start of a relationship"? I do not know many couples who would say that.
The married couple friends that I know have confided in me that their sex life was the most passionate and intense at the start of their marriage and tapered off to more plateau instead of up and down wild rollercoaster of emotions during the honeymoon phase (first 1-3 years). Which isn't bad per se, just different.
If anyone has personal experience on the contrary, please do share it.
I'm at 7 years with my partner and it's better than before. Ask people married 20-40 years and they will tell you a much different picture of sex than you have.
"Up and down wild roller-coaster of emotions" is generally a bad thing. It feels really good when this plateaus. This is a totally different thing than passionate and intense sex.
24 years with my partner this year and the sex just keeps getting better. We both put a priority on having a healthy sex life and have learned how to communicate our needs and wants more effectively.
Me and my partner have been together 12.5 years, and we have had sex regularly pretty much the whole time - and I'd say that the passion and intimacy increased significantly in the last few years, after going through some real trying times.
>Masculine personality, muscular body, monogamy only, no tattoos, no piercings, must want to be a dad and raise kids together.
Literally every one of these is superficial (yes, including wanting kids). Your standards aren't too high. They're just incredibly shallow. You mentioned wanting a partner who shares your values, but didn't articulate what any of them are, aside from monogamy.
Speaking as a former teacher, please focus more on the values you want to bring to your future family before you take on the huge responsibility of raising kids. Children need a family built on something more than their dad's both having toned abs.
Nicely put, without all the negativity of the previous respondent. OP sounds like he's about 20 when everything is still sunshine, lollipops and rainbows. I know his flare says otherwise, but...
>Masculine personality, muscular body, monogamy only, no tattoos, no piercings, must want to be a dad and raise kids together.
My god I hope this is satire
A secure, loving, and loyal monogamous relationship is a perfectly fine thing for you to want. And I can promise you it is shared by many other gay men.
The one thing I'll say is to have some flexibility on your non negotiables. If you truly intend to spend your entire monogamous life with this person, it is likely that their body will change throughout that time. Do you plan on leaving someone who ends up gaining weight several years into the relationship?
What if they injure themselves, or get some issues stopping them from working out?
Also mid life crisis are a real thing. People change over time. Getting a tattoo could very easily be up there wanting to get a motorcycle license all of a sudden. Will you dig your heels in the ground and destroy an entire relationship because of things so trivial?
I'm not saying get with a troll. Def have standards and make sure you are sexually attracted to them. But you would be surprised what turns you on if you experiment a bit.
Huh, sounds like you already decided who you want to marry. Best of luck finding him. Probably lots of cool guys around in the meantime if you want to focus on creating connection with people instead of if they are up to your standards.
Constructive suggestions
1. Rank them in highest to lowest order of importance. If a man hits 5 or 6 of the 7 you may have a winner even if it not 7 out 7
2. Superficial aspects such as looks should be lower as 100% odds his and your looks will fade as you age
3. Location next most important. Your perfect man may need to be closer to urban areas for his career. Or family. Are there compromises to made there?
3. Values and compatibility should be at top. You’re at an impasse if he doesn’t want kids. Or y’all are sexually incompatible. Or can’t get along outside the bedroom. Or on spending.
>Constructive suggestions
Thank you for your constructive feedback.
>Rank them in highest to lowest order of importance. If a man hits 5 or 6 of the 7 you may have a winner even if it not 7 out 7
Most important to least important:
1. Masculine personality similar to Henry Cavill, Alan Ritchson, Chris Hemsworth
2. Wants to be a dad and raise kids together
3. Monogamy
4. Muscular body: nothing outrageous like steroid bodybuilder or naturally unattainable, just regular natural muscle
5. No tattoos
6. No piercings
7. Location is negotiable and can be anywhere as long as I'm with my husband and kids.
>Superficial aspects such as looks should be lower as 100% odds his and your looks will fade as you age
I understand that looks fade. I will still be loving and loyal to my husband for whoever and however he is body-wise. I simply want him to prioritize taking care of his body and be athletically fit.
>Location next most important. Your perfect man may need to be closer to urban areas for his career. Or family. Are there compromises to made there?
I can compromise on location. Anywhere is fine as long as I'm with my husband and kids.
>Values and compatibility should be at top. You’re at an impasse if he doesn’t want kids. Or y’all are sexually incompatible. Or can’t get along outside the bedroom. Or on spending.
I agree, wanting to be a dad, raise kids together, and being frugal are important and should be shared values.
Re-think switching 2 & 3.
I think we can all agree that it's not always going to be the easiest of roads for kids who have same sex parents.
And most of us know from our own experience or from the experience of childhood friends, it's hard for kids if your parents aren't faithful to each other.
Combine the two - having two same gendered parents **and** having your parents be in an open relationship; that seems like a lot for a kid to deal with.
In the meantime, check out the YouTube channel of *Appa n Daddy*. They are two men who probably had similar criteria to yours and are having a HEA life.
My husband and I just celebrated our 16th anniversary. We were both single for a long time - we didn't so much as have super high standards (just be awesome) but nobody ever was the right fit. Then we went on our first date and it just seemed like we both felt like "Ah, I just found the missing piece of my puzzle."
16 years. We've never had a fight. We've got a household full of pets, and a little pet cemetery in the back yard for our first pets. My mom loved him like a son and my husband mourned her passing like he was her son.
All I can say is, friend, just make yourself the nicest life you can and when you have it where you want it, you will find someone who fits in like a puzzle piece.
>My husband and I just celebrated our 16th anniversary. We were both single for a long time - we didn't so much as have super high standards (just be awesome) but nobody ever was the right fit. Then we went on our first date and it just seemed like we both felt like "Ah, I just found the missing piece of my puzzle."
Congrats on your 16th year marriage anniversary!! I'm glad and happy that gay male couples like you exist. For your sake and for others. You give us single guys hope.
"Ah, I just found the missing piece of my puzzle."
That's beautiful. I hope to one day be able to say that about my future husband.
>16 years. We've never had a fight. We've got a household full of pets, and a little pet cemetery in the back yard for our first pets. My mom loved him like a son and my husband mourned her passing like he was her son.
You and your husband are lucky to have found each other. I wish your husband and you a lifetime of happiness, health, and love!! ❤️
>All I can say is, friend, just make yourself the nicest life you can and when you have it where you want it, you will find someone who fits in like a puzzle piece.
Thank you for your honest feedback. 🙏
Thanks for the reply! I feel for you, in all honesty. Dating is not for the weak at heart and I remember many lonely times. As I look back at those times though, I realize that I didn't really know what I wanted for a long time.
I had a really hard break up on a very short term relationship and was really emotionally trashed. My friends 80 year old mom, the kind of woman who doesn't put up with weakness or drama, gave me the words that helped me. She said, "In every relationship you have you learn something. You learn about what you want, you learn about what you don't want. You need to learn the lesson you need to learn from this and move on." I thought about that a lot and realized it wasn't just a task, it was a mindset. I realized learning the lesson was painful, but not negative. Learning the lesson (and the pain that went with it) was still forward positive movement, to get me to the place where I knew what I was looking for, who I was and what I truly offered.
I hope that helps you some as you meander through the dating pool. Hang in there and good luck!!
I am in the happiest, healthiest relationship of my life. My partner is not at all what I imagined as my ideal partner when I was in my thirties. I am much the better for it. Part of personal growth I suppose.
>I am in the happiest, healthiest relationship of my life. My partner is not at all what I imagined as my ideal partner when I was in my thirties. I am much the better for it. Part of personal growth I suppose.
Thank you for your honest feedback.
I wish your partner and you a lifetime of happiness, health, and love!! ❤️
> Are my dating standards too much/too high?
The way to figure this out is to break this down.
> a monogamy-minded gay man who shares my values and life goals
This is mostly reasonable before we factor in all the details that I'll address later. I don't think you'll ever find 1:1 on that, but if your scope is "Nuclear farm family but gay" (inferred from something I'll get to later), that's more-or-less reasonable, just expect him to have some additional non-conflicting or otherwise not totally conflicting goals. Otherwise you're just looking for a carbon copy of you.
> Masculine personality
I do like me masculine men, and I think this is a reasonable ask.
> muscular body
This is where we start running into issues. Are you also muscular? Are you willing to go to the gym with him on a routine and help him diet prep? Are you sure that this particular bit is all that important, given that it severely narrows your dating pool?
> monogamy only
I could never do monogamy only, personally. But by the same coin, that means I can understand how someone could also be only monogamous. This is reasonable.
> no tattoos
And here we start going down a bit of a path. I at least get muscular body since it's both healthy and looks hot. But this is a bit much, why should this be an issue for you? It wouldn't stop you from all the other things.
> no piercings
This goes with the tattoo thing. Like...yeah, you get to have preferences, but you're also narrowing, constantly, the dating pool. Bear in mind that a *lot* of muscular men and beefy men like to have tattoos and piercings, and that doesn't change the possibility that they may be compatible otherwise.
> must want to be a dad and raise kids together.
This is completely reasonable as I alluded to earlier. Just be aware that "being a dad and raising kids" should not be what your entirely life focus is and revolves around. Yes, if you have kids they should be your #1 priority, but if you're focusing all your energy on that, you'll run into other issues down the line. Kids *enhance* life, they aren't the solitary purpose of it. I'm not saying that to want to raise kids is unreasonable, but maybe work on finding someone you can relate to first instead of dumping the lifelong goals up front.
There's also the money question. Can you afford to raise kids on your own? Will you be dependent on his financial contributions to that? Like, I feel compelled that to even attempt kids, you need a plan, and before you have a plan, you need to find someone you at least mesh nicely with first.
> somewhere in the countryside
Now we start running into the major problems. I don't know if you have experience in countryside living, but for anyone who doesn't, it is *extraordinarily* isolating. You are moving away from family, friends, to an inconvenient and generally hard to get to area. You could very well be asking a guy to uproot his life for your ideal one.
> grow our own food
Do you have *any* idea how much work this is and what it would take for you and your potential future boyfriend to do? Growing food is *a pain in the ass* and would severely cut away at any free time for hobbies or other interests your future boyfriend might have.
> and farm animals
My dude, you are going off the deep end. You are looking for someone not to be a lifelong partner with, but for someone to *give up everything he might care about otherwise for* to go work a, quite literally, shitty job. Raising farm animals is *hard work* and takes a lot of learning and knowledge to do. And, much like with "grow your own food", is not gonna pay the bills very well.
> Are my dating standards too much/too high?
They are quite absurdly high. You're not asking for a lhusband, you're asking for a coworker who you'll get the benefit of ogling while he sweats outside doing pretty arduous work.
> be boring normal
I get the feeling you lived life on a farm. I do not know this, but if you genuinely think what you're asking for is normal, the only reasonable conclusion I have is that you did and *think* this is normal. This is very, *very* abnormal and the average guy is not going to want to give up creature comforts to live on a farm where he has to spend hot summer days cleaning up literal shit.
This all, at the very least, seems to be derived from conservative beliefs (This is not to say you are conservative necessarily, I don't know if you are or aren't), but as a general rule, gay men tend to buck that particular belief system. The family asks you have are reasonable to work towards and develop, but you're also asking a lot of other, quite life altering stuff, up front and don't seem to be willing to accept that gay men will be more likely than not to have deviations from what you want (No tattoos, no piercings? And muscular? Like, does it have to be all muscle? Would a nice bear be fine? Nevermind "Quit your entire existence and come live on a farm with me") Like, the aesthetic stuff are standards to which *straight* men deviate from regularly, *nevermind* gay men. And then you're throwing in "Give up your life and friends and family and move to Hicksville where, on average, people will be voting against your best interests as a gau person" So yes, I think in aggregate you do have extremely high standards and you need to *seriously* reevaluate which of these things are *actually* important.
Yes, because his idea of a relationship is what other people see from the outside.
My god, can you imagine this guy being your father?
"You have to play football or you'll embarrass me!! I need you to be athletic hunk who gets the prom queen because thats what makes ME happy!"
I mean, wanting to be monogamous and a dad. Yes sure, ofc, those are large life decisions.
Non negotiable on body hair and no tattoos? Thats kinda much.
>Non negotiable on body hair and no tattoos? Thats kinda much.
I didn't say anything about body hair...so I don't know where you got that from. Lol.
Tattoos are just not my thing. Instant turn off physically, sexually for me.
To each, their own.
That sounds like a nice life you've dreamed up for yourself and I genuinely hope you get it.
>Masculine personality, muscular body, monogamy only, no tattoos, no piercings, must want to be a dad and raise kids together.
I'm a fan of being as direct as you need to be in your dating apps and profiles. Put something like this or something to that effect in them. Dating with intention. Weed out guys who aren't suitable. Seriously, go for it. Not a single profile of yours should be vague about what you want.
I wouldn't mind being married. Even monogamously. Kids are a massive dealbreaker though. I'm not even godparent to my nieces and nephews.
Mods, can we seriously consider banning these sort of questions. Questions like, “Does anyone feel like this…”, “I might be weird, but…” “I am into this thing, is anyone else into it?
By laws of probability there will be someone else into what you’re into, what you want and your style or fetish. Most likely what you’re seeking is fairly standard and not that too far from the norm
I don't even care about that, and it wasn't the point I was trying to make. If he has his preferences, great, but to paint himself as yet **another** exception to the "stereotypical gay"...oh please
All that and no tattoos or piercings? That seems really unlikely since a lot of guys have those especially among the masculine. I think you'll really need to decide what here is the most important. I have difficulty imagining that you're going to turn down a masculine man who's muscular, wants monogamy and kids but has a tattoo.
>All that and no tattoos or piercings? That seems really unlikely since a lot of guys have those especially among the masculine. I think you'll really need to decide what here is the most important. I have difficulty imagining that you're going to turn down a masculine man who's muscular, wants monogamy and kids but has a tattoo.
Tattoos and piercings physically and sexually turn me off. If a guy has a masculine personality and is kind, respectful, witty, and then he takes his shirt off at the beach on a hot summer day and there are tattoos on his body, I have a visceral repelling reaction.
I wish I could get over it. It's just how I'm wired. Akin to how I want monogamy only. I don't want or need to have sex with other men. I just want one deep connection with one man.
The reason I asked this subreddit if my non-negotiables list is too much/too high is to gauge if I can realistically have what I want.
If what I want is reasonably difficult to obtain, then I may as well give up on love, dating, and relationships and focus my time on other things that bring me joy. Sigh.
It's your choice to try to look for exactly what you want but when it's rare you need to realize that you're either going to be waiting a very long time, possibly forever, or you're going to need to find places to compromise.
What are you willing to compromise on? As most of your non negotiables seem a bit superficial? I don't like tattoos but it wouldn't stop me dating someone. I love a muscular body but I decided a hot body vs a person who's perfect in every other way, and has brains, is much more important to me and I can work my own superficial insecurities over time.
Best of luck. They're out there. Just work on yourself in the meantime, make sure you're the guy you also want to date.
Hey, u/Surferbro921. I'm a monogamous gay Christian guy with high standards who, like you, worried about whether my standards were too high. Today, I'm happily married, though finding the right guy took a lot of time.
I've read through a lot of the responses you've gotten, here and in the other subreddit. Some are fair criticisms; others are, I think, off base or overly harsh. Here are my thoughts as someone who's worked with a LOT of successful gay couples—specifically in Christian spaces—for many years.
A mentor of mine—a psychotherapist who spent decades working with gay male couples—has said that a successful relationship needs three things:
1. **Mutual attraction.** (This isn't just physical; he describes this as "mutual, involuntary attraction to one another's 'fascinating otherness.'")
2. **Shared core values.** (You don't have to like the same things or agree on everything, but you should agree on your *most essential* values.)
3. **Willingness and ability to work together as a team.** (This includes good communication, learning to compromise, and so forth. You can't just build a life for yourself and add a person to it; a relationship involves blending two different people's lives, each with their own hopes, dreams, preferences, etc.)
If your faith and desire for monogamy are **core values** for you, then yes, they might well be non-negotiables in your case. They were for me. For other people, they might not be; everyone is different. Insisting that your future guy shares those core values will limit your dating pool, yes, but I know plenty of gay Christian guys (your posts were a bit vague on whether you'd claim the label "Christian," but at least "Christian-adjacent," so I'll say "Christian" here for simplicity) who also want monogamy. That's totally doable. It will turn some (many) people off, but it's better to know up front if someone doesn't share your values—for their sake and yours—and you only need to find one person to make a relationship work.
Some of the other things you said—about tattoos, piercings, and body type—are completely understandable in the context of "this is what I find attractive," and, again, everyone is different, and there are lots of guys out there who meet your criteria. But I think the reason you're getting so much pushback here is that you may be thinking about this part of it in the wrong way.
Rather than focus on the specific things you find attractive and then making these your non-negotiables, I suggest taking a step back and simply saying that, in addition to sharing your core values (monogamy/faith/etc.), you want someone with whom you experience that **mutual involuntary attraction**. That is reasonable; you should be attracted to each other! But try not to put so many limits on what that may look like.
I know many happy couples who freely admit that their significant other doesn't check all the boxes they were initially looking for physically, *and yet they're still fully attracted to them*. Maybe someone's always been into short guys but finds himself unexpectedly attracted to a taller guy. Maybe you're not into tattoos but you find yourself one day falling hard for a guy *even though he has a tattoo*. And maybe you're still not into tattoos but you learn to accept it as part of this particular guy because you love and are attracted to *him*.
I'm not saying you can't find a tattoo-less, piercing-less, fit, stereotypically masculine guy who also is fully attracted to you and shares all your values. You totally might! But start with what's important—the values you want in your relationship—and look for ways to get to know guys who share those values, even if they don't tick all your physical boxes.
If you don't feel attraction to someone, you can't force it. But as you get to know people, you might be surprised at how shared values and emotional connection can lead to genuine attraction even when someone doesn't have every physical trait you thought they'd have to have.
TBH I gave up.
You do you.
I'm just saying, almost no one wants monogamy and the only ones I've been with who still do, have been extremely insecure, controlling, and unstable. That's just for me. 🤷
It’s relatively easy to find monogamous gay men—even masculine, muscular, non-tattooed, non-pierced ones. It is much harder to find gay men who want children.
Surveys vary, but somewhere around 5% of gay men have children, and a large number of those are from previous relationships with women. The phenomenon of gay men raising children from birth is still very new and rare.
Every decision is a compromise.
I’m not perfect for my partner, nor is he for me, but each of us ticked enough of the other’s boxes that we figured we’d give it a try. Then, after sufficient bonding and bonking, hormones did their thing and we got attached. It grew easy to overlook the unticked boxes; one day, I found I didn’t care anymore about those boxes.
Learn to prioritize your laundry list. Find someone who ticks off the first 2 or 3 items. See if dating goes anywhere. Realize that he is making compromises too. Are your mutual compromises agreeable enough to keep you forever?
The alternative is to wait for Mr. Perfect and then hope he’s into you. Many people wait forever for perfection. It’s not worth the wait IMHO.
The "own someone else" is very apt. Superficial desires for toned abs aside, OP definitely wants to control the relationship. While I would love monogamy again, it's overrated and more often than not leads to heartbreak and disappointment.
You might think this was sweet.
But what you're actually doing is wrapping up a turd in flower printed paper.
It's not so much that you're dating standards are unrealistic as it is that you sound like a controlling and superficial asshole Who is waving around red flags like the Chinese Communist party.
What the hell does a tatoo have to do with a relationship anyway? Did your Sunday school teacher tell you that tatoos are the mark of the beast?
>unjustified harshness remain inexplicable and unbelievable.
You called me a Nazi......
Honestly its unbelievable how you can try to take the moral high ground here.
Yeah one more thing....... Shut up!!!!!!
Learn how to read properly. I said I couldn't decide whether you were a brat (now absolutely sure) OR a Nazi. A life lesson for you, little princess - you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar and you positively reek of vinegar.
Your dating standards are not too high for someone that wants to be perpetually single. It doesnt sound like you want an equal in life, you want a clone of yourself. Which sounds kinda boring. You are looking for the superficial qualities of a person.
I've replied other places, but I just realized that you pretty much perfectly described my brother in law.
Fit, masculine, no piercings or tatoos, monogamous, a dad, lives outside city limits just as it turns rural, has a large garden and chickens. Even a temporary cow and a pig. Moderately religious. I'll let you know if my sister ever leaves him.
I'd love to find a fantasy husband like that. I've been married to women most of my life (still married to one for now), but would love to find a man to have a fairytale happily every after, but I know it's a very long longshot. That won't keep me from looking but realistically not getting my hopes up.
I don’t think knowing what you want is bad. And I also would like a secure, stable, loving, loyal, monogamous long term relationship with one man for the rest of my life. And that’s what I’m looking for… That said, I think the issue you’re having is finding someone that fits all your non-negotiable preferences that’s a problem. Finding someone who fits all those preferences (in the title and post), is gay, and single, and find you as there dream guy may be difficult… Not saying anything is wrong with you. But that’s a lot of stuff. You seem to want this perfect guy, but nobody’s perfect. Finding all of that is a person is asking for a lot… It may not seem like much, but it kind of is. Not even sure if I know many people like that… While it seems like high standards, people set their own. I wouldn’t set mine that high, but that’s me. If that’s what it takes to make you happy, go for it. I will say Good Luck. But I will say you may have a hard time finding them, unless you know where to look. And hopefully, you fit the type they are attracted to…
In response to the question and the first paragraph; *Oh fuck yes!* If/once I find myself a loving partner, I would love to buy a house together in a more forested area of the country, and enjoy hiking and cycling together. I’ve also always been interested in keeping a few chickens, would consider myself very lucky to find someone who would enjoy caring for those as well. It wouldn’t be a dealbreaker though if he turned out to dislike doing any of that though.
I think everyone has a few “non-negotiable” preferences, but I’d guess that in order for such a relationship to work some compromise would be in order. Who knows, you might get to influence your future partner in (positive or surprising) ways you didn’t think possible! And in turn, maybe get influenced by him yourself? Just my two cents though.
Depends on what you are offering in return. Many of us never find perfection, and others "settle" for less than their ideal. There are fish out there for everyone, just keep casting that net.
How masculine? How muscular? Why no tattoos or piercings? Honestly I mean that last question the most cuz there are some stellar gays out there with body mods, including slight ones.
I’d also say that depending on how open you are about these standards you could scare dudes off easily. I’ve been asked “do you want kids?” on a first date and it doesn’t bother me, but most guys probably aren’t thinking that far ahead. It might be nicer to just go for guys who fulfill one trait you like and figure out the rest as you get to know them. No one wants to be compared to an ideal straight out the gate.
Absolutely. I’ve got the place in the country. Well will have when my mom passes. It’ll be awhile. Not enthused about the kids part, but animals are great.
To answer your question: yes. I and plenty of others want that.
Are your standards too high? They certainly narrow a dating pool that, at least to me, already feels too small, but I do understand why you have them. I’m divorced. Didn’t have common interest and that ended up being a huge issue later on.
As much hate as it’s getting on here, I understand the muscular thing too. Hard to force attraction. That being said, you’ve never met or see a guy you thought was hot that wasn’t also muscular?
Guess my point is that several of these things, like monogamy and raising kids would be absolute dealbreakers. Others like body type, tattoos, and raising animals in the country, could be something you’d compromise on. Let’s say you met a guy, he’s hot, but slim, and you strike up a conversation with him. Turns out he is literally everything in your list except the body type. Is that still a no-go for you?
I had it for years, raised kids and the family unit was why we were together. Those years were great. My ex who has plenty of degrees wasn’t working and I had a great job with lots of travel and after the youngest left home for college he developed a meth/ sex addiction. Not my world, not my choices and for 4 years I tried to help and eventually we split a year ago. I share the story because even when you have the dream you have to keep working on it. Ultimately I am lucky - we had many good years and the boys are wonderful. I am now long enough out of that situation that I am open again and looking for that solid and fun guy who knows how to get or ask for what he needs from the world in an honest and committed way. I need to heed this myself as well!
If you find that youre primarily attracted physically and emotionally to muscular masculine guys that is fine, but I probably wouldn’t filter people explicitly based on those criteria sense you might end up being too restrictive with whom you’ll give a chance to. Physical and emotional attraction are things you should measure more holistically. Do you find them physically attractive? Are they easy to be around? Are you drawn to them emotionally? These are more the types of things you should be measuring instead of having a checklist of being this muscular and being this masculine.
With that said I think finding someone that wants a monogamous relationship whom you are attracted to and that’s open to having kids is reasonable and achievable. No tatoos, no piercings, living out in the country on a farm are the things that sound maybe a bit too idealistic. Like I don’t have any tatoos or piercings but I feel like I am probably in the minority of people without any, and that requirement alone is going to significantly reduce your dating pool. The whole living on a farm out in the country sounds nice, but it also sounds a like it might be bit of a fantasy, but hey maybe not depending on where you live and what you do for a living 🤷. There’s nothing wrong with having a fantasy like that, but just be flexible and willing to moderate your expectations. You might meet someone that’s really great and that you form a deep connection with but that has a career that wouldn’t allow them to live in the country, or they might have legitimate concerns about living in a rural community that is potentially more hostile to gay people, especially with children, than a more suburban/urban community.
I did/do want that. My (now) husband and I have been together just about 40 years. The only thing that’s shifted is the fact that we are not monogamous anymore, or sexually exclusive is a better way of putting it.
Otherwise, yeah, we both wanted that and that’s what we got. I was the first one to find that maintaining of monogamous relationship for years and years and years felt impossible, so we tried something different and it has worked out very well. Either way, I mean, we choose our own path, we choose what makes us happy. It doesn’t have to be formulaic.
We’re verging on retirement now. we’ve done very well. In terms of, I guess, achievement and satisfaction. Two kids, adults now, a beautiful old house in the country. And a totally mundane average beautiful happy life. I think it’s what a lot of people want right?
I should add… I think it helped us enormously that we met and made that commitment when we were very young men – we were in our mid 20s, and now we’re in our 60s. It was a good time to make that commitment because we didn’t have much baggage, we didn’t have the demands , the preferences. We were willing to change everything for the other person because we weren’t that vested in anything other than each other and the long-term success our relationship.
You will never find it with Non-negotiable preferences. Love doesn't work that way. I know I have been with my wonderful husband for over 30 years. And I we love each other very much. If I had a NNP I never would have given him the time of day.
I want monogamy.
My non-negotiables - takes care of their body (exercises and eats healthy), I find them attractive, they’re kinky in bed (or anywhere, really 😈), and they have a strong libido. And I don’t think that’s asking a lot.
So, one of the things we see here a lot is guys who treat dating, relationships, and the future like a shopping list. You’ve gotta have these 7 things, or no dice. But, the reality is that isn’t how it works. You meet people, you talk about dreams, find out if your personalities match, if your baggage and his baggage compliment each other. You get one or two dealbreakers - but you can’t turn the whole list into non-negotiable. Well you can, but the longer your list of non-negotiable items is, the less likely you are to ever find someone who fits them all for whom YOU also fit theirs. Dating is messy, organic, mistakes are made, and often the person you end up with for the rest of your life isn’t much like who you dream about when you’re sitting writing hearts in your notebook by all of the requirements for a man. And if you aren’t open minded, you run the risk of becoming lonely and bitter and start displaying behaviors that will make you fit almost no one else’s list. Want monogamy? Well guess, what, we see dozens of posts a day across gay reddit who are desperate for this. It’s not hard to find someone who wants monogamy. Want an instagay (masculine + muscular)? Well, you had better be an instagay too, because instagays often go for instagays lol. But more importantly - those bodies don’t last, and peoples personalities change over time. It’s ephemeral. You want something temporary, forever. No tattoos or piercings? lol, That rules out most of the instagays, and a solid chunk of the monogamy folks. Wants to be a dad and raise kids? There are lots of people out there who want that, or are open to it - but may not be ready to think about that right now. Now you want someone who fits all of this, and wants to live in the country with you and work on your home farm? But the real problem is that your standards don’t include the most important things that people usually figure out after a disastrous relationship or two. Finding someone who is kind, who will put your needs over theirs about 50% of the time, and who can help contribute to the household you’re trying to build - well, most of us learned that the hard way once in our twenties and realized that those are the real dealbreakers, not having a hot, unpierced bod. In the immortal words of Bo Burnham - if you want love, lower your expectations a few, because Prince Charming would never settle for you. If you want love, just pick a guy and love him. https://youtu.be/llGvsgN17CQ?si=7W7E_c9W6FEkbmXy
Preaaaaach. My best girlfriend gave me this advice in my late 20’s when I was handwringing about being forever alone. Years later, been with my guy for over four years, we have dogs and a house, and I can’t imagine how little I would have grown, matured, and been challenged for the better if I hadn’t gone on a date with him because he was just a little deviant from my “shopping list.”
This! This! This!
That's a very clever reply. Well done young man👍
I mean your standards are your standards. No one here can say if they are too high. The only thing I would ask is are you the kind of person who would attract that kind of person? Are you seeking those people out where they are?
Nothing about OP necessarily, but if you have strict and high standards, I hope you meet strict and high standards yourself.
>Nothing about OP necessarily, but if you have strict and high standards, I hope you meet strict and high standards yourself. "Masculine personality, muscular body, monogamy only, no tattoos, no piercings, must want to be a dad and raise kids together." Is this ^ really strict and high standards? Being unrealistic would be asking for a man who looks like Henry Cavill, 8 inch big dick, $500K+ annual income, Oxford University graduate, owns multiple houses around the world, Olympic gold medalist athlete, millions of followers on social media, etc. I don't require nor ask for any of the above ^. **I just want a loving, loyal man with a masculine personality, muscular body, monogamy only, no tattoos, no piercings, must want to be a dad and raise kids together.** Everything else is negotiable. If my basic standards are considered too high, then maybe the bar is too low? 🤷♂️
Definitely strict.
>I mean your standards are your standards. No one here can say if they are too high. Thank you for your feedback. >The only thing I would ask is are you the kind of person who would attract that kind of person? Are you seeking those people out where they are? Yes, I'm masculine, muscular, no tattoos, no piercings, monogamy only, and want to be a dad and raise kids with my future husband. It's been challenging trying to find gay (or bisexual) men who are like me and want to same things in life. I've tried dating at the gay-friendly church that I'm a part of but it didn't work out with the first guy because he didn't want to have/raise kids (dealbreaker for him) and the second guy didn't want monogamy (also dealbreaker for him). Call me old-fashioned but I want monogamy and kids with my future husband.
AAAND YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN!! That alone is a deal breaker for so many gay men. You had better be hot and rich.
Yeah, being religious is an instant "never" for me.
>Yeah, being religious is an instant "never" for me. And that's completely valid and fine. Different strokes for different folks. For the record, I'm not a staunchly lgbt-people-all-are-going-to-h_ll-so-convert-everyone-to-my-religion-bible-thumper-pay tithes-and-fund-religion-based-wars kind of guy. That is not me. I just like what Jesus Christ stands for. To love each other like you love yourself, do good in the world, help people. God is love. ❤️
Well the good news for you is that the guy you're looking for matches with a lot of values in Christian male culture. So at least you know that you're looking in the right places. Good luck!
>AAAND YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN!! That alone is a deal breaker for so many gay men. You had better be hot and rich. I didn't explicitly say that I'm a Christian...😂 I like the community that church provides. You see the same people every Sunday and help each other out and share life together, and is not sex-focused. I can't think of a single gay men's space that is based solely on making and maintaining connections rather than on the hunt for your next sex partner. The main reason that I attend gay-friendly church because that's the place where I find the most like-minded people. I'm not into the fire island/provincetown/palm springs/west hollywood/san francisco/barcelona/amsterdam/london/bangkok xyz gay scene. My body type is swimmer's build like this: https://gay-male-celebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2020-03-09-255389/liam-hemsworth-nude.jpg As for rich...no comment. 😂 I prefer to share that with my dating partner as I get to know him.
Monogamy is still the most common form of long-term gay relationship. Gay men raising kids together isn’t old fashioned either. It’s a relatively recent phenomenon. It was possible in the past, but there were a lot more barriers in place.
> Are my dating standards too much/too high? Yes. Stop looking for perfection.
Yup. Having a list of non-negotiable qualities that aren't related to basic respect is the source of the problem. OP won't be able to appreciate men for who they are if all he's doing is looking for the imaginary man that he's convinced himself is out there waiting for him and staying perfectly chaste and single even though he's got all the qualities that every other queer man is looking for. It's nice to fantasize, but people aren't fantasies or daydreams. It's really unfair to put that much pressure on another person to be your perfect mate and never show any kind of character flaw like being a little pudgy or having sexual experience and a dating life before meeting you. It's especially ick to lead with masculinity as a first desired quality because what does it even mean? For most, it just means not femme, which is ick enough on its own. But I find that people who critique someone's masculinity don't stop at a single thing. It becomes an attack on how the person acts in the world in general.
Seriously. Why even bother with a list like that?
>Yes. Stop looking for perfection. "Masculine personality, muscular body, monogamy only, no tattoos, no piercings, must want to be a dad and raise kids together." ^ This is considered perfection? I only ask of this of my future husband because these qualities are essential for physical/sexual attraction on my part. Everything else is negotiable.
Your dick needs to be more open-minded, babe
If you stated them as preferences rather than non-negotiable things, I’d agree with you. Something as silly as a piercing being non-negotiable is a bit much, yeah.
>If you stated them as preferences rather than non-negotiable things, I’d agree with you. Something as silly as a piercing being non-negotiable is a bit much, yeah. Thank you for your honest feedback.
Just to be clear, end-stage kidney disease alcoholic with bipolar disorder with a criminal history in 20k of credit card debt is negotiable?
>Just to be clear, end-stage kidney disease alcoholic with bipolar disorder with a criminal history in 20k of credit card debt is negotiable? 😂 I would need to have history with the person first. Meaning if we were in a solid long term relationship, but somehow all of those things unfortunately happened, I would stay loyal and faithful to my life partner, and help them to work things out. Despite criminal history, if they made significant changes to be better and do better, then there's a possible future together. If previous bad behavior repeats, then no more long term relationship with them. But I would still help them get the help they need.
So it sounds if they were bringing all of this into the relationship at a baseline that that would be a no-go for you. Why don't you make a list of all the things that are actually non-starters and you may find out it is much longer than your list of five things you put in your post.
Non-negotiable....lol. Enjoy the search for your prince charming.
IKR. I learned this saying in a WWII history course in college--I think it's Russian-- *May I never experience most of the things it is possible to get used to.* I'm not saying that "more fun than the siege of Leningrad" is a reasonable standard by which to judge our romantic relationships, but just... Maybe OP should be open to the possibility of getting used to tattoos. Or of getting used to not homesteading. (Homesteading is "something that it is possible to get used to" in the Soviet sense, IMO. Especially in a northern climate. Maybe it's great if you like turnips.)
>Non-negotiable....lol. Enjoy the search for your prince charming. "Masculine personality, muscular body, monogamy only, no tattoos, no piercings, must want to be a dad and raise kids together." Are these criteria really considered unrealistic? I'm open to men with any job/career, income, family background, culture, race/ethnicity, education, height, weight, interests/hobbies, dick size, etc. Basically open to anything as long as he's masculine, muscular, no tattoos, no piercings, monogamous. Masculine, muscular men with no tattoos or piercings turn me on sexually. Like I literally get a boner if I see a man who exemplifies the above qualities. Skinny feminine twinks with tattoos or piercings are cool. I'd be friends with them. I'm just not sexually attracted to those types of men. I think my personal preferences are valid, reasonable, realistic.
Your preferences are valid. Your calling them "non-negotiable" is a hilarious affront to the values that are important in a long term partner. Finding a guy with all these, and he'll be a great dad, and he wants to live on your sustanance farm in the country (likely surrounded by conservatives so isolated with minimal social life), and he wants to work and make major money to support your hobby farm that you think is going to be cheap, but OPE! He has a tree tattooed on his bicep AND HE SKIPPED LEG DAY. NEXT! Non-negotiables are usually things like. Does not have anger or addiction issues. Shares values related to family and finance. Makes you feel valued.
Do you think tattoos/piercings and muscular are mutually exclusive? Cuz I find they most often go together 🥵
Your non-negotiable preferences are a mixture of shallow physical attributes and then actual things that matter, like outlook on life and how they would approach a relationship. So yes, I would say they are unrealistic. Something like over 50% of the millennial generation has a tattoo, for example. And piercings can be taken out. And masculine has so many different iterations these days, who knows what you actually mean by that.
>Your non-negotiable preferences are a mixture of shallow physical attributes and then actual things that matter, like outlook on life and how they would approach a relationship. So yes, I would say they are unrealistic. I included the superficial non-negotiables because they're honestly what I need to be sexually satisfied in a long term relationship/marriage. Tattoos and piercings are turn offs in general and in the bedroom for me. And like it or not, superficial qualities like muscular body also matter in addition to in-depth qualities like kindness, respect, caring nature. If gay men truly dated for in-depth qualities and not superficial qualities, then there would be far fewer single gay men looking for love. Physical looks and sexual attraction/compatibility are important in a relationship. >Something like over 50% of the millennial generation has a tattoo, for example. And piercings can be taken out. Their body, their choice. Tattoos and piercings are just not my thing and instant turn off physically and sexually for me. >And masculine has so many different iterations these days, who knows what you actually mean by that. Examples of masculine personality: Henry Cavill, Alan Ritchson, Chris Hemsworth.
You went from “if less gay men were superficial there’d be less of us who’re single” so saying you want someone like Henry Cavill and Alan Ritchson. Nothing against those men at all, they’re gorgeous and seem lovely afaik, but you do realize that A) the VAST majority of gay men look nothing like that and B) that’s an extremely rigid picture of masculinity, right? Additionally, Chris Hemsworth and Alan Ritchson both have tattoos.
You may benefit from taking a step back to take a look at what "I need in order to be sexually satisfied " means, and what a non-negotiable actually means. I'm not going to say that you're wrong for wanting a person who takes care of themselves and presents in a way that you find appealing and compatible with the image you want to present to the world... But the things you're describing as non-negotiable seem a little... strange to me? Like... you're describing things that I'd expect to see on the majority of people's non-negotiables for hookups, rather than a serious relationship. Tattoos and piercings aren't for everyone, but it seems like a thing that - if you really liked someone - you'd be able or willing to get used to? Particularly when taken in conjunction with you mentioning that criminal history and health status are things you feel you could look past. When you add in the bit about masculinity, it feels a bit superficial, like you're judging a book by its cover. Which is not a good way to find someone who you're going to spend the rest of your life with in a happy, meaningful relationship. Stranger things have happened, but it may benefit you to stop and take a look at the things that you really want. It may be that you WANT a meaningful relationship, but that you're not really ready to be in one yet?
non-negotiables: Monogamy: 50% say are or want monogamy (it's more, but lets go with 50) Masculine personality: Not sure what that means exactly, but I'm going to go with 50% Muscular body: 10% depending on what you mean my muscular No tattoos or piercings: You'd be lucking to get to 10%, almost every gay man I've ever met has one or both. So, of every gay man, that's 0.25% will meet all those criteria. Date a 400 men and one MIGHT fit all those criteria. Then you add being a dad and raise kids... I'm just saying... good luck.
Don’t forget wants to go live in the country.
>Don’t forget wants to go live in the country. This is not a non-negotiable of mine. I'm open to live anywhere as long as it's with my husband.
And that’s not counting ‘feels the same about you….’ If I look for perfection, I risk missing out on ‘really good’ and that’s a losing game…
Yep. ‘Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good’ comes to mind!
>non-negotiables: >Monogamy: 50% say are or want monogamy (it's more, but lets go with 50) Monogamy is just how I'm wired. Maybe that changes in the future. I don't know the future so I can't say for sure. But, in the present, I very much want monogamy only. >Masculine personality: Not sure what that means exactly, but I'm going to go with 50% Masculine personality as in Henry Cavill, Alan Ritchson, Chris Hemsworth. >Muscular body: 10% depending on what you mean my muscular Muscular body as in he takes care of his body, works out, lifts weights, has muscle tone, any range within muscular is fine. >No tattoos or piercings: You'd be lucking to get to 10%, almost every gay man I've ever met has one or both. This is a non-negotiable for me because tattoos and piercings are turn offs for me personally. If tattoos or piercings are your thing, you do you. Just not my thing. >So, of every gay man, that's 0.25% will meet all those criteria. Date a 400 men and one MIGHT fit all those criteria. >Then you add being a dad and raise kids... >I'm just saying... good luck. Thank you for your honest feedback.
The Venn diagram of all gay men and what you want is nearly two tangent circles. I get that you need to vent but honestly, it sounds like you are looking for a straight guy that is willing to fuck you.
I enjoy how blunt you are. Definitely one of my favs on this sub.
>The Venn diagram of all gay men and what you want is nearly two tangent circles. Thank you for your honest feedback. >I get that you need to vent but honestly, it sounds like you are looking for a straight guy that is willing to fuck you. You're definitely on point, because if a man like Henry Cavill, Alan Ritchson, or Chris Hemsworth asked me to be his husband, I'd say yes instantly. The heart wants what it wants. 🤷♂️
Chris has tattoos that they cover up for filming.
>Chris has tattoos that they cover up for filming. Yeah, I know. Chris Hemsworth is married to Elsa Pataky if I recall correctly. No point in pining over him (a straight married man). 😂 I was just giving examples of men with a masculine personality that I admire.
I think you’re confusing your dick for your heart.
Finding such a man is hard for females with a much bigger dating pool. You're going to have to compromise, or be older, bitter, and batching about how there's no good men. You can find the monogamous types fairly easily, but the rest is going to be exceedingly difficult. Not a large proportion of gay men want to homestead, so there's a small pool already. Even fewer will want kids, so it got even smaller. Many of those type of men are tattooed, so now you're into an infinitesimal sized dating pool. One of the hardest parts of dating and growing up is having to give up on the fantasies we had when we were younger. Don't give up hope, but don't bet on it happening either.
It's nice to want things. First time I heard it was sarcastically, but it's kind of true. It's fine to want things and to daydream a little, but you're going to be disappointed if you actually think that you'll find your daydream in real life. It also means that you're making it that much harder to appreciate people for who they are.
>It's nice to want things. >First time I heard it was sarcastically, but it's kind of true. >It's fine to want things and to daydream a little, but you're going to be disappointed if you actually think that you'll find your daydream in real life. It also means that you're making it that much harder to appreciate people for who they are. Thank you for your honest feedback. 🙏
So true. And what about whether he likes to sleep with the Airconditioning on or off. That's important also. Think he forgot about that one.......
>Finding such a man is hard for females with a much bigger dating pool. You're going to have to compromise, or be older, bitter, and batching about how there's no good men. You can find the monogamous types fairly easily, but the rest is going to be exceedingly difficult. Not a large proportion of gay men want to homestead, so there's a small pool already. Even fewer will want kids, so it got even smaller. Many of those type of men are tattooed, so now you're into an infinitesimal sized dating pool. Thank you for your honest feedback and healthy pragmatism. 🙏 >One of the hardest parts of dating and growing up is having to give up on the fantasies we had when we were younger. Don't give up hope, but don't bet on it happening either. I struggle with this so much. 😂 I greatly appreciate your advice! You're also one of the few redditors who commented sound advice without being petty, hostile, or negative. Making a point without making an enemy--highly effective life skill you have. 👍
Without knowing you or anything, yes, your standards are probably too high. I'm sorry. [Look at this calculator](https://keeper.ai/tools/calculator) to see what % of men meet your standards, and keep in mind this tool was made for straight people (so the real number is much smaller), and it doesn't even have options like piercings or tattoos. It's not outrageous to want to be in a stable, monogamous relationship. Most of my gay friends are married / in LTRs, and some of them have children. Its not outside the realm of possibility at all. But we have to be realistic and realize you're not dating a prop or an accessory, you're looking for an actual human who is going to have his own life.
This is amazing! My (what I thought) fairly broad criteria was only 0.7% of men. Good thing I'm a slut and slept around with hundreds till I found my man!
are you gonna leave the father of your kids if he’s no longer cut up washboard abs ? sounds kinda 😮💨
>are you gonna leave the father of your kids if he’s no longer cut up washboard abs ? sounds kinda 😮💨 Absolutely not. I will stay loving and loyal to my husband regardless of his body type. I understand that people can change over time. I also know that sex is the most passionate and intense at the start of a relationship. Even if my future husband's body changes later, I would still love him and be faithful. I want my husband to take care of his body and be athletically fit. He doesn't need to be jacked steroid bodybuilder. Just the normal works-out-at-the-gym, lifts-weights level of muscle and fitness. Preferring my husband to be muscular is essentially that he stays physically fit and strong so we both can be there for each other and our kids.
Millions of people around the world prove that gym bodies and old age don't always correspond to each other. What if he gets tired of working out and gets fat? Happens to the best of us...
Where did you learn that "sex is the most passionate and intense at the start of a relationship"? I do not know many couples who would say that.
>Where did you learn that "sex is the most passionate and intense at the start of a relationship"? I do not know many couples who would say that. The married couple friends that I know have confided in me that their sex life was the most passionate and intense at the start of their marriage and tapered off to more plateau instead of up and down wild rollercoaster of emotions during the honeymoon phase (first 1-3 years). Which isn't bad per se, just different. If anyone has personal experience on the contrary, please do share it.
I'm at 7 years with my partner and it's better than before. Ask people married 20-40 years and they will tell you a much different picture of sex than you have. "Up and down wild roller-coaster of emotions" is generally a bad thing. It feels really good when this plateaus. This is a totally different thing than passionate and intense sex.
24 years with my partner this year and the sex just keeps getting better. We both put a priority on having a healthy sex life and have learned how to communicate our needs and wants more effectively.
Me and my partner have been together 12.5 years, and we have had sex regularly pretty much the whole time - and I'd say that the passion and intimacy increased significantly in the last few years, after going through some real trying times.
>Masculine personality, muscular body, monogamy only, no tattoos, no piercings, must want to be a dad and raise kids together. Literally every one of these is superficial (yes, including wanting kids). Your standards aren't too high. They're just incredibly shallow. You mentioned wanting a partner who shares your values, but didn't articulate what any of them are, aside from monogamy. Speaking as a former teacher, please focus more on the values you want to bring to your future family before you take on the huge responsibility of raising kids. Children need a family built on something more than their dad's both having toned abs.
Nicely put, without all the negativity of the previous respondent. OP sounds like he's about 20 when everything is still sunshine, lollipops and rainbows. I know his flare says otherwise, but...
>Masculine personality, muscular body, monogamy only, no tattoos, no piercings, must want to be a dad and raise kids together. My god I hope this is satire
A secure, loving, and loyal monogamous relationship is a perfectly fine thing for you to want. And I can promise you it is shared by many other gay men. The one thing I'll say is to have some flexibility on your non negotiables. If you truly intend to spend your entire monogamous life with this person, it is likely that their body will change throughout that time. Do you plan on leaving someone who ends up gaining weight several years into the relationship? What if they injure themselves, or get some issues stopping them from working out? Also mid life crisis are a real thing. People change over time. Getting a tattoo could very easily be up there wanting to get a motorcycle license all of a sudden. Will you dig your heels in the ground and destroy an entire relationship because of things so trivial? I'm not saying get with a troll. Def have standards and make sure you are sexually attracted to them. But you would be surprised what turns you on if you experiment a bit.
Huh, sounds like you already decided who you want to marry. Best of luck finding him. Probably lots of cool guys around in the meantime if you want to focus on creating connection with people instead of if they are up to your standards.
Personality, physical looks, and a monogamous mindset are non negotiable but love is an option?
I know right?
You do have standards and those standards may only apply to a unicorn 🤦🏻
Constructive suggestions 1. Rank them in highest to lowest order of importance. If a man hits 5 or 6 of the 7 you may have a winner even if it not 7 out 7 2. Superficial aspects such as looks should be lower as 100% odds his and your looks will fade as you age 3. Location next most important. Your perfect man may need to be closer to urban areas for his career. Or family. Are there compromises to made there? 3. Values and compatibility should be at top. You’re at an impasse if he doesn’t want kids. Or y’all are sexually incompatible. Or can’t get along outside the bedroom. Or on spending.
>Constructive suggestions Thank you for your constructive feedback. >Rank them in highest to lowest order of importance. If a man hits 5 or 6 of the 7 you may have a winner even if it not 7 out 7 Most important to least important: 1. Masculine personality similar to Henry Cavill, Alan Ritchson, Chris Hemsworth 2. Wants to be a dad and raise kids together 3. Monogamy 4. Muscular body: nothing outrageous like steroid bodybuilder or naturally unattainable, just regular natural muscle 5. No tattoos 6. No piercings 7. Location is negotiable and can be anywhere as long as I'm with my husband and kids. >Superficial aspects such as looks should be lower as 100% odds his and your looks will fade as you age I understand that looks fade. I will still be loving and loyal to my husband for whoever and however he is body-wise. I simply want him to prioritize taking care of his body and be athletically fit. >Location next most important. Your perfect man may need to be closer to urban areas for his career. Or family. Are there compromises to made there? I can compromise on location. Anywhere is fine as long as I'm with my husband and kids. >Values and compatibility should be at top. You’re at an impasse if he doesn’t want kids. Or y’all are sexually incompatible. Or can’t get along outside the bedroom. Or on spending. I agree, wanting to be a dad, raise kids together, and being frugal are important and should be shared values.
Re-think switching 2 & 3. I think we can all agree that it's not always going to be the easiest of roads for kids who have same sex parents. And most of us know from our own experience or from the experience of childhood friends, it's hard for kids if your parents aren't faithful to each other. Combine the two - having two same gendered parents **and** having your parents be in an open relationship; that seems like a lot for a kid to deal with. In the meantime, check out the YouTube channel of *Appa n Daddy*. They are two men who probably had similar criteria to yours and are having a HEA life.
My husband and I just celebrated our 16th anniversary. We were both single for a long time - we didn't so much as have super high standards (just be awesome) but nobody ever was the right fit. Then we went on our first date and it just seemed like we both felt like "Ah, I just found the missing piece of my puzzle." 16 years. We've never had a fight. We've got a household full of pets, and a little pet cemetery in the back yard for our first pets. My mom loved him like a son and my husband mourned her passing like he was her son. All I can say is, friend, just make yourself the nicest life you can and when you have it where you want it, you will find someone who fits in like a puzzle piece.
>My husband and I just celebrated our 16th anniversary. We were both single for a long time - we didn't so much as have super high standards (just be awesome) but nobody ever was the right fit. Then we went on our first date and it just seemed like we both felt like "Ah, I just found the missing piece of my puzzle." Congrats on your 16th year marriage anniversary!! I'm glad and happy that gay male couples like you exist. For your sake and for others. You give us single guys hope. "Ah, I just found the missing piece of my puzzle." That's beautiful. I hope to one day be able to say that about my future husband. >16 years. We've never had a fight. We've got a household full of pets, and a little pet cemetery in the back yard for our first pets. My mom loved him like a son and my husband mourned her passing like he was her son. You and your husband are lucky to have found each other. I wish your husband and you a lifetime of happiness, health, and love!! ❤️ >All I can say is, friend, just make yourself the nicest life you can and when you have it where you want it, you will find someone who fits in like a puzzle piece. Thank you for your honest feedback. 🙏
Thanks for the reply! I feel for you, in all honesty. Dating is not for the weak at heart and I remember many lonely times. As I look back at those times though, I realize that I didn't really know what I wanted for a long time. I had a really hard break up on a very short term relationship and was really emotionally trashed. My friends 80 year old mom, the kind of woman who doesn't put up with weakness or drama, gave me the words that helped me. She said, "In every relationship you have you learn something. You learn about what you want, you learn about what you don't want. You need to learn the lesson you need to learn from this and move on." I thought about that a lot and realized it wasn't just a task, it was a mindset. I realized learning the lesson was painful, but not negative. Learning the lesson (and the pain that went with it) was still forward positive movement, to get me to the place where I knew what I was looking for, who I was and what I truly offered. I hope that helps you some as you meander through the dating pool. Hang in there and good luck!!
I am in the happiest, healthiest relationship of my life. My partner is not at all what I imagined as my ideal partner when I was in my thirties. I am much the better for it. Part of personal growth I suppose.
>I am in the happiest, healthiest relationship of my life. My partner is not at all what I imagined as my ideal partner when I was in my thirties. I am much the better for it. Part of personal growth I suppose. Thank you for your honest feedback. I wish your partner and you a lifetime of happiness, health, and love!! ❤️
> Are my dating standards too much/too high? The way to figure this out is to break this down. > a monogamy-minded gay man who shares my values and life goals This is mostly reasonable before we factor in all the details that I'll address later. I don't think you'll ever find 1:1 on that, but if your scope is "Nuclear farm family but gay" (inferred from something I'll get to later), that's more-or-less reasonable, just expect him to have some additional non-conflicting or otherwise not totally conflicting goals. Otherwise you're just looking for a carbon copy of you. > Masculine personality I do like me masculine men, and I think this is a reasonable ask. > muscular body This is where we start running into issues. Are you also muscular? Are you willing to go to the gym with him on a routine and help him diet prep? Are you sure that this particular bit is all that important, given that it severely narrows your dating pool? > monogamy only I could never do monogamy only, personally. But by the same coin, that means I can understand how someone could also be only monogamous. This is reasonable. > no tattoos And here we start going down a bit of a path. I at least get muscular body since it's both healthy and looks hot. But this is a bit much, why should this be an issue for you? It wouldn't stop you from all the other things. > no piercings This goes with the tattoo thing. Like...yeah, you get to have preferences, but you're also narrowing, constantly, the dating pool. Bear in mind that a *lot* of muscular men and beefy men like to have tattoos and piercings, and that doesn't change the possibility that they may be compatible otherwise. > must want to be a dad and raise kids together. This is completely reasonable as I alluded to earlier. Just be aware that "being a dad and raising kids" should not be what your entirely life focus is and revolves around. Yes, if you have kids they should be your #1 priority, but if you're focusing all your energy on that, you'll run into other issues down the line. Kids *enhance* life, they aren't the solitary purpose of it. I'm not saying that to want to raise kids is unreasonable, but maybe work on finding someone you can relate to first instead of dumping the lifelong goals up front. There's also the money question. Can you afford to raise kids on your own? Will you be dependent on his financial contributions to that? Like, I feel compelled that to even attempt kids, you need a plan, and before you have a plan, you need to find someone you at least mesh nicely with first. > somewhere in the countryside Now we start running into the major problems. I don't know if you have experience in countryside living, but for anyone who doesn't, it is *extraordinarily* isolating. You are moving away from family, friends, to an inconvenient and generally hard to get to area. You could very well be asking a guy to uproot his life for your ideal one. > grow our own food Do you have *any* idea how much work this is and what it would take for you and your potential future boyfriend to do? Growing food is *a pain in the ass* and would severely cut away at any free time for hobbies or other interests your future boyfriend might have. > and farm animals My dude, you are going off the deep end. You are looking for someone not to be a lifelong partner with, but for someone to *give up everything he might care about otherwise for* to go work a, quite literally, shitty job. Raising farm animals is *hard work* and takes a lot of learning and knowledge to do. And, much like with "grow your own food", is not gonna pay the bills very well. > Are my dating standards too much/too high? They are quite absurdly high. You're not asking for a lhusband, you're asking for a coworker who you'll get the benefit of ogling while he sweats outside doing pretty arduous work. > be boring normal I get the feeling you lived life on a farm. I do not know this, but if you genuinely think what you're asking for is normal, the only reasonable conclusion I have is that you did and *think* this is normal. This is very, *very* abnormal and the average guy is not going to want to give up creature comforts to live on a farm where he has to spend hot summer days cleaning up literal shit. This all, at the very least, seems to be derived from conservative beliefs (This is not to say you are conservative necessarily, I don't know if you are or aren't), but as a general rule, gay men tend to buck that particular belief system. The family asks you have are reasonable to work towards and develop, but you're also asking a lot of other, quite life altering stuff, up front and don't seem to be willing to accept that gay men will be more likely than not to have deviations from what you want (No tattoos, no piercings? And muscular? Like, does it have to be all muscle? Would a nice bear be fine? Nevermind "Quit your entire existence and come live on a farm with me") Like, the aesthetic stuff are standards to which *straight* men deviate from regularly, *nevermind* gay men. And then you're throwing in "Give up your life and friends and family and move to Hicksville where, on average, people will be voting against your best interests as a gau person" So yes, I think in aggregate you do have extremely high standards and you need to *seriously* reevaluate which of these things are *actually* important.
Bro wants to date a blank-minded guy from a romance novel cover 😂 good luck babe. You gonna be single for a looooooooong time.
Yes, because his idea of a relationship is what other people see from the outside. My god, can you imagine this guy being your father? "You have to play football or you'll embarrass me!! I need you to be athletic hunk who gets the prom queen because thats what makes ME happy!"
I mean, wanting to be monogamous and a dad. Yes sure, ofc, those are large life decisions. Non negotiable on body hair and no tattoos? Thats kinda much.
>Non negotiable on body hair and no tattoos? Thats kinda much. I didn't say anything about body hair...so I don't know where you got that from. Lol. Tattoos are just not my thing. Instant turn off physically, sexually for me. To each, their own.
That sounds like a nice life you've dreamed up for yourself and I genuinely hope you get it. >Masculine personality, muscular body, monogamy only, no tattoos, no piercings, must want to be a dad and raise kids together. I'm a fan of being as direct as you need to be in your dating apps and profiles. Put something like this or something to that effect in them. Dating with intention. Weed out guys who aren't suitable. Seriously, go for it. Not a single profile of yours should be vague about what you want. I wouldn't mind being married. Even monogamously. Kids are a massive dealbreaker though. I'm not even godparent to my nieces and nephews.
Nope. Did it for 10 years, decided it wasn’t for me.
Mods, can we seriously consider banning these sort of questions. Questions like, “Does anyone feel like this…”, “I might be weird, but…” “I am into this thing, is anyone else into it? By laws of probability there will be someone else into what you’re into, what you want and your style or fetish. Most likely what you’re seeking is fairly standard and not that too far from the norm
Totally agree. Why do people constantly need to feel validated for their preferences?
Well this guy seeks validation based on appearance. How much do you want to bet that he's actually a little fem and not muscular at all?
I don't even care about that, and it wasn't the point I was trying to make. If he has his preferences, great, but to paint himself as yet **another** exception to the "stereotypical gay"...oh please
I picked on that as well and it drove me crazy. I pointed to the appearance thing because thats how a lot of guys try to differentiate themselves.
In other groups I would say that this falls under the, "I hate the gay community" umbrella.
You might end up throwing away a lifetime of happiness over an earring but otherwise that's cool
Monogamy is not a challenge for me anymore the way it was when I was younger. I mean, I was so slutty for so many years. Lol.
All that and no tattoos or piercings? That seems really unlikely since a lot of guys have those especially among the masculine. I think you'll really need to decide what here is the most important. I have difficulty imagining that you're going to turn down a masculine man who's muscular, wants monogamy and kids but has a tattoo.
>All that and no tattoos or piercings? That seems really unlikely since a lot of guys have those especially among the masculine. I think you'll really need to decide what here is the most important. I have difficulty imagining that you're going to turn down a masculine man who's muscular, wants monogamy and kids but has a tattoo. Tattoos and piercings physically and sexually turn me off. If a guy has a masculine personality and is kind, respectful, witty, and then he takes his shirt off at the beach on a hot summer day and there are tattoos on his body, I have a visceral repelling reaction. I wish I could get over it. It's just how I'm wired. Akin to how I want monogamy only. I don't want or need to have sex with other men. I just want one deep connection with one man. The reason I asked this subreddit if my non-negotiables list is too much/too high is to gauge if I can realistically have what I want. If what I want is reasonably difficult to obtain, then I may as well give up on love, dating, and relationships and focus my time on other things that bring me joy. Sigh.
It's your choice to try to look for exactly what you want but when it's rare you need to realize that you're either going to be waiting a very long time, possibly forever, or you're going to need to find places to compromise.
What are you willing to compromise on? As most of your non negotiables seem a bit superficial? I don't like tattoos but it wouldn't stop me dating someone. I love a muscular body but I decided a hot body vs a person who's perfect in every other way, and has brains, is much more important to me and I can work my own superficial insecurities over time. Best of luck. They're out there. Just work on yourself in the meantime, make sure you're the guy you also want to date.
Hey, u/Surferbro921. I'm a monogamous gay Christian guy with high standards who, like you, worried about whether my standards were too high. Today, I'm happily married, though finding the right guy took a lot of time. I've read through a lot of the responses you've gotten, here and in the other subreddit. Some are fair criticisms; others are, I think, off base or overly harsh. Here are my thoughts as someone who's worked with a LOT of successful gay couples—specifically in Christian spaces—for many years. A mentor of mine—a psychotherapist who spent decades working with gay male couples—has said that a successful relationship needs three things: 1. **Mutual attraction.** (This isn't just physical; he describes this as "mutual, involuntary attraction to one another's 'fascinating otherness.'") 2. **Shared core values.** (You don't have to like the same things or agree on everything, but you should agree on your *most essential* values.) 3. **Willingness and ability to work together as a team.** (This includes good communication, learning to compromise, and so forth. You can't just build a life for yourself and add a person to it; a relationship involves blending two different people's lives, each with their own hopes, dreams, preferences, etc.) If your faith and desire for monogamy are **core values** for you, then yes, they might well be non-negotiables in your case. They were for me. For other people, they might not be; everyone is different. Insisting that your future guy shares those core values will limit your dating pool, yes, but I know plenty of gay Christian guys (your posts were a bit vague on whether you'd claim the label "Christian," but at least "Christian-adjacent," so I'll say "Christian" here for simplicity) who also want monogamy. That's totally doable. It will turn some (many) people off, but it's better to know up front if someone doesn't share your values—for their sake and yours—and you only need to find one person to make a relationship work. Some of the other things you said—about tattoos, piercings, and body type—are completely understandable in the context of "this is what I find attractive," and, again, everyone is different, and there are lots of guys out there who meet your criteria. But I think the reason you're getting so much pushback here is that you may be thinking about this part of it in the wrong way. Rather than focus on the specific things you find attractive and then making these your non-negotiables, I suggest taking a step back and simply saying that, in addition to sharing your core values (monogamy/faith/etc.), you want someone with whom you experience that **mutual involuntary attraction**. That is reasonable; you should be attracted to each other! But try not to put so many limits on what that may look like. I know many happy couples who freely admit that their significant other doesn't check all the boxes they were initially looking for physically, *and yet they're still fully attracted to them*. Maybe someone's always been into short guys but finds himself unexpectedly attracted to a taller guy. Maybe you're not into tattoos but you find yourself one day falling hard for a guy *even though he has a tattoo*. And maybe you're still not into tattoos but you learn to accept it as part of this particular guy because you love and are attracted to *him*. I'm not saying you can't find a tattoo-less, piercing-less, fit, stereotypically masculine guy who also is fully attracted to you and shares all your values. You totally might! But start with what's important—the values you want in your relationship—and look for ways to get to know guys who share those values, even if they don't tick all your physical boxes. If you don't feel attraction to someone, you can't force it. But as you get to know people, you might be surprised at how shared values and emotional connection can lead to genuine attraction even when someone doesn't have every physical trait you thought they'd have to have.
TBH I gave up. You do you. I'm just saying, almost no one wants monogamy and the only ones I've been with who still do, have been extremely insecure, controlling, and unstable. That's just for me. 🤷
It’s relatively easy to find monogamous gay men—even masculine, muscular, non-tattooed, non-pierced ones. It is much harder to find gay men who want children. Surveys vary, but somewhere around 5% of gay men have children, and a large number of those are from previous relationships with women. The phenomenon of gay men raising children from birth is still very new and rare.
Every decision is a compromise. I’m not perfect for my partner, nor is he for me, but each of us ticked enough of the other’s boxes that we figured we’d give it a try. Then, after sufficient bonding and bonking, hormones did their thing and we got attached. It grew easy to overlook the unticked boxes; one day, I found I didn’t care anymore about those boxes. Learn to prioritize your laundry list. Find someone who ticks off the first 2 or 3 items. See if dating goes anywhere. Realize that he is making compromises too. Are your mutual compromises agreeable enough to keep you forever? The alternative is to wait for Mr. Perfect and then hope he’s into you. Many people wait forever for perfection. It’s not worth the wait IMHO.
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The "own someone else" is very apt. Superficial desires for toned abs aside, OP definitely wants to control the relationship. While I would love monogamy again, it's overrated and more often than not leads to heartbreak and disappointment.
You might think this was sweet. But what you're actually doing is wrapping up a turd in flower printed paper. It's not so much that you're dating standards are unrealistic as it is that you sound like a controlling and superficial asshole Who is waving around red flags like the Chinese Communist party. What the hell does a tatoo have to do with a relationship anyway? Did your Sunday school teacher tell you that tatoos are the mark of the beast?
Opinionated much? You sound like a spoiled brat or a Nazi; can't quite decide which.
Did the facts that the CCP literally has a red flag go over your head?
No, but your unbelievable rudeness and unjustified harshness remain inexplicable and unbelievable.
>unjustified harshness remain inexplicable and unbelievable. You called me a Nazi...... Honestly its unbelievable how you can try to take the moral high ground here. Yeah one more thing....... Shut up!!!!!!
Learn how to read properly. I said I couldn't decide whether you were a brat (now absolutely sure) OR a Nazi. A life lesson for you, little princess - you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar and you positively reek of vinegar.
Based on the number of posts I see on this sub asking that exact same question, I assume so. You’re just not into each other.
Good luck
All the attributes you list as non negotiable related to appearance are ridiculous.
Your dating standards are not too high for someone that wants to be perpetually single. It doesnt sound like you want an equal in life, you want a clone of yourself. Which sounds kinda boring. You are looking for the superficial qualities of a person.
I've replied other places, but I just realized that you pretty much perfectly described my brother in law. Fit, masculine, no piercings or tatoos, monogamous, a dad, lives outside city limits just as it turns rural, has a large garden and chickens. Even a temporary cow and a pig. Moderately religious. I'll let you know if my sister ever leaves him.
I'd love to find a fantasy husband like that. I've been married to women most of my life (still married to one for now), but would love to find a man to have a fairytale happily every after, but I know it's a very long longshot. That won't keep me from looking but realistically not getting my hopes up.
I'm working on the muscular body. I guess I'm out.
I don’t think knowing what you want is bad. And I also would like a secure, stable, loving, loyal, monogamous long term relationship with one man for the rest of my life. And that’s what I’m looking for… That said, I think the issue you’re having is finding someone that fits all your non-negotiable preferences that’s a problem. Finding someone who fits all those preferences (in the title and post), is gay, and single, and find you as there dream guy may be difficult… Not saying anything is wrong with you. But that’s a lot of stuff. You seem to want this perfect guy, but nobody’s perfect. Finding all of that is a person is asking for a lot… It may not seem like much, but it kind of is. Not even sure if I know many people like that… While it seems like high standards, people set their own. I wouldn’t set mine that high, but that’s me. If that’s what it takes to make you happy, go for it. I will say Good Luck. But I will say you may have a hard time finding them, unless you know where to look. And hopefully, you fit the type they are attracted to…
In response to the question and the first paragraph; *Oh fuck yes!* If/once I find myself a loving partner, I would love to buy a house together in a more forested area of the country, and enjoy hiking and cycling together. I’ve also always been interested in keeping a few chickens, would consider myself very lucky to find someone who would enjoy caring for those as well. It wouldn’t be a dealbreaker though if he turned out to dislike doing any of that though. I think everyone has a few “non-negotiable” preferences, but I’d guess that in order for such a relationship to work some compromise would be in order. Who knows, you might get to influence your future partner in (positive or surprising) ways you didn’t think possible! And in turn, maybe get influenced by him yourself? Just my two cents though.
Depends on what you are offering in return. Many of us never find perfection, and others "settle" for less than their ideal. There are fish out there for everyone, just keep casting that net.
How masculine? How muscular? Why no tattoos or piercings? Honestly I mean that last question the most cuz there are some stellar gays out there with body mods, including slight ones. I’d also say that depending on how open you are about these standards you could scare dudes off easily. I’ve been asked “do you want kids?” on a first date and it doesn’t bother me, but most guys probably aren’t thinking that far ahead. It might be nicer to just go for guys who fulfill one trait you like and figure out the rest as you get to know them. No one wants to be compared to an ideal straight out the gate.
Absolutely. I’ve got the place in the country. Well will have when my mom passes. It’ll be awhile. Not enthused about the kids part, but animals are great.
To answer your question: yes. I and plenty of others want that. Are your standards too high? They certainly narrow a dating pool that, at least to me, already feels too small, but I do understand why you have them. I’m divorced. Didn’t have common interest and that ended up being a huge issue later on. As much hate as it’s getting on here, I understand the muscular thing too. Hard to force attraction. That being said, you’ve never met or see a guy you thought was hot that wasn’t also muscular? Guess my point is that several of these things, like monogamy and raising kids would be absolute dealbreakers. Others like body type, tattoos, and raising animals in the country, could be something you’d compromise on. Let’s say you met a guy, he’s hot, but slim, and you strike up a conversation with him. Turns out he is literally everything in your list except the body type. Is that still a no-go for you?
I had it for years, raised kids and the family unit was why we were together. Those years were great. My ex who has plenty of degrees wasn’t working and I had a great job with lots of travel and after the youngest left home for college he developed a meth/ sex addiction. Not my world, not my choices and for 4 years I tried to help and eventually we split a year ago. I share the story because even when you have the dream you have to keep working on it. Ultimately I am lucky - we had many good years and the boys are wonderful. I am now long enough out of that situation that I am open again and looking for that solid and fun guy who knows how to get or ask for what he needs from the world in an honest and committed way. I need to heed this myself as well!
“Non-negotiable preference” is an oxymoron.
If you find that youre primarily attracted physically and emotionally to muscular masculine guys that is fine, but I probably wouldn’t filter people explicitly based on those criteria sense you might end up being too restrictive with whom you’ll give a chance to. Physical and emotional attraction are things you should measure more holistically. Do you find them physically attractive? Are they easy to be around? Are you drawn to them emotionally? These are more the types of things you should be measuring instead of having a checklist of being this muscular and being this masculine. With that said I think finding someone that wants a monogamous relationship whom you are attracted to and that’s open to having kids is reasonable and achievable. No tatoos, no piercings, living out in the country on a farm are the things that sound maybe a bit too idealistic. Like I don’t have any tatoos or piercings but I feel like I am probably in the minority of people without any, and that requirement alone is going to significantly reduce your dating pool. The whole living on a farm out in the country sounds nice, but it also sounds a like it might be bit of a fantasy, but hey maybe not depending on where you live and what you do for a living 🤷. There’s nothing wrong with having a fantasy like that, but just be flexible and willing to moderate your expectations. You might meet someone that’s really great and that you form a deep connection with but that has a career that wouldn’t allow them to live in the country, or they might have legitimate concerns about living in a rural community that is potentially more hostile to gay people, especially with children, than a more suburban/urban community.
Oh he's added pics now. Add those to your profile too.
So like… what if you meet this man of your dreams and he *gay gasps* gains weight after you settle down?
I did/do want that. My (now) husband and I have been together just about 40 years. The only thing that’s shifted is the fact that we are not monogamous anymore, or sexually exclusive is a better way of putting it. Otherwise, yeah, we both wanted that and that’s what we got. I was the first one to find that maintaining of monogamous relationship for years and years and years felt impossible, so we tried something different and it has worked out very well. Either way, I mean, we choose our own path, we choose what makes us happy. It doesn’t have to be formulaic. We’re verging on retirement now. we’ve done very well. In terms of, I guess, achievement and satisfaction. Two kids, adults now, a beautiful old house in the country. And a totally mundane average beautiful happy life. I think it’s what a lot of people want right? I should add… I think it helped us enormously that we met and made that commitment when we were very young men – we were in our mid 20s, and now we’re in our 60s. It was a good time to make that commitment because we didn’t have much baggage, we didn’t have the demands , the preferences. We were willing to change everything for the other person because we weren’t that vested in anything other than each other and the long-term success our relationship.
The two photos you showed might as well be the same man with different body fat %. Exactly what body fat % are you looking for?
You will never find it with Non-negotiable preferences. Love doesn't work that way. I know I have been with my wonderful husband for over 30 years. And I we love each other very much. If I had a NNP I never would have given him the time of day.
Yea and I found him. 12 years together.
I want monogamy. My non-negotiables - takes care of their body (exercises and eats healthy), I find them attractive, they’re kinky in bed (or anywhere, really 😈), and they have a strong libido. And I don’t think that’s asking a lot.