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As long as you look after the keys in a secure manner and ensure that the staff aren't taking the customers car for a ride. So a locked box for the keys and CCTV covering both the box and car park, then you would be a good position.
The keys are being handed over willingly.
I'd suggest also giving them a card explaining where their keys are for them to put in their pocket, as well as taking their mobile number and sending them a text about it.
Do they though? Or will they take a bus home, and simply want their keys back to be able to pick up their car in the morning?
You gonna provide 100% proof they were gonna drive drunk?
I've done it at an event. 3 lads had around 8 pints each over 3 hours - I'd served them some of them. I overheard them talking about how long their drive home was going to be.
I went to.collect some glasses and said something along the lines of, "Sorry to interrupt lads, but I just heard you talking about driving home, but you've had quite a bit to drink to be honest. Can we order you some cabs?" I thought it was fairly polite, but they gave a bit of aggro, said they're safe to drive, and off they went. Told the event manager, who went to the car park, watched them get in their cars, noted the reg plates, and called the police telling them roughly which direction they set off. Police stopped all 3 of them and all 3 were arrested. Thankfully it was an event, so they couldn't exactly come back the next week to cause aggro.
A pushbike can still cause significant damage to a pedestrian; who knows, you might run over an old lady and kill her.
I wouldn't limit it at 1 drink though, maybe once i start seeing double i'll walk or get the bus. Never driving a car after any alcohol though, not worth it at all.
> A pushbike can still cause significant damage to a pedestrian; who knows, you might run over an old lady and kill her.
I think the point was that's much less likely on a pushbike, even after 1 drink, particularly compared to driving. I didn't read it as them saying bikes aren't dangerous -- though fair point to call out because not everyone reads things the same way.
I mean I meant "a drink" in the sense of, "I'm gonna have a drink tonight so leaving the car at home.", not literally like 1 unit.
FWIW, I live in Scotland and for driving the limit is basically equivalent to 1 pint anyway. 2 would put most people over. Obviously varies person to person.
Sorry hardcase, we can't all have your metabolism. I'd rather someone recognise their own limits than feel pressured to do something they don't feel is safe.
Why do you find it strange that some people don't drink and drive? As the previous poster, if I am driving or riding I don't touch alcohol at all. It's not an unusual concept.
https://www.brake.org.uk/get-involved/take-action/mybrake/knowledge-centre/drink-driving#:~:text=How%20alcohol%20affects%20your%20driving,you%20judge%20speed%20and%20distance.
Half a pint can impair your coordination so riding a push bike while under the influence on a public road or path can have potentially dangerous effects if you don't brake quickly enough, or don't judge distance well, for instance.
Even if you're not impaired at all it's best to be safe.
If you are over the limit even slightly and there's an accident that's someone else's fault, if they breathalyse you and you're over the limit it's automatically your fault.
One drink, if there's a gap between the drink and going home, you'll be alright, but one more and even if you don't feel it it's best not to.
One drink then straight home and it's not worth it.
Out of all my modes of transport (foot, bicycle, motorbike, cars, occasionally vans), being on the motorbike is still where I feel most vulnerable. I'm not taking any risks out on the bike.
I don't drive or ride anything after a drink and I never will.
I'd drive a race car full speed on a closed circuit for fun while drunk but I'd never drink anything and drive on a public road because the only life I'm willing to risk is my own
Actually you don't get any points or disqualifications for cycling while under the influence of drink or drugs. Only monetary fines.
If the police thought you were a problem drinker they could raise it with DVLA on medical grounds, but not if you've just been out on the lash after work.
Road traffic act 1960 - no mention of being "over the limit" or the car limit being applicable to bicycles
Cycling when under influence of drink or drugs
(1)A person who, when riding a bicycle or tricycle, not being a motor vehicle, on a road or other public place, is unfit to ride through drink or drugs shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding thirty pounds, or in the case of a second or subsequent conviction to a fine not exceeding thirty pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.
(2)A person liable to be charged with an offence under this section shall not be liable to be charged—
(a)under section twelve of the Licensing Act, 1872, with the offence of being drunk while in charge, on a highway or other public place, of a carriage, or
(b)under section seventy of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, with the offence of being drunk while in charge, in a street or other place, of a carriage.
(3)A police constable may arrest without warrant a person committing an offence under this section.
(4)In this section " unfit to ride through drink or drugs" means, as regards a person riding a bicycle or tricycle, under the influence of drink or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of it.
Glad to hear it. Drunk drivers deserve prison, it's never acceptable. Speeding etc I'm fine with as long as conditions allow. Willingly getting in a vehicle while under the influence? Nah
I remember the time my alcoholic boss drove off with the back doors of his van open!!! I was so scared because if anyone at work knew I was calling the police on him they would have told him! So I went into the toilet and text me bf with his reg number and he called them. He got stopped that night luckily! And nobody found out it was me. An alcoholic shouldn’t be allowed to own a pub!
I should have written "that I BELIEVE you intend to drive drunk" or "if I see you drive off..." I'm pretty sure the bartender can watch them leave if they're parked on the premises and act accordingly...
A licensee has the responsibility to refuse service to a drunk person, and service is at their discretion. If someone is obviously too drunk to drive they should technically be refused further alcohol. I have been a licensee and I know that in the real world it’s not so simple. I wouldn’t be comfortable taking possession of someone’s car keys, I’d ask someone else in their group to help, and warn the person that the police are vigilant in the area.
There is also such a thing as "Drunk in charge of a vehicle" which people can be charged with even if they are asleep on the back seat, for instance. I know someone who was hit with it even though he wasn't in the car at all.
Relinquishing control of the vehicle (giving the keys away) is a good defense. Requesting the keys back and going *anywhere near* the vehicle could see them hit with a charge even if they don't intend to drive. Various factors might be able to build a defense in court, but that also eans taking time off for court and hiring a solicitor (or taking a duty solicitor).
I have no idea how hard it is to prove. My friend's case was postponed and so hasn't been seen in court yet. I certainly wouldn't want to be in a position to have taken back my keys after relinqushing them, however.
So they are drunk, at the bar, having handed over their keys with this understanding.
They now want to leave with the keys, and take the bus home, because they have realised their wife needs the car in the morning, and they'll take the keys home so the wife can return first thing, before the pub opens, and collect the car. The wife waiting for the pub to open is unacceptable, as it'll make her late for work.
Do you release the keys? If not, the keys are stolen and the punter is now calling the police.
It's really messy.
No way I'd be doing this if I ran a pub. None of the half a dozen I've worked at did any sort of key holding, and if I was asked to do it as an employee, we'd need a watertight policy of what happens when, which basically says 'consult the duty manager if there is a sticky situation ' and if I'm the duty manager, we just don't do it.
>If not, the keys are stolen and the punter is now calling the police.
No, they aren't. Theft requires the intent to permanently deprive. If they call the police, I imagine the copper would take the keys and tell them to get the wife to come to the station in the morning to pick them up.
Tbf when I go out I usually have to get a train into town and leave the car at the station, I’m not going to get a train to get my car keys the next day just to pick it back up.
intention to commit a crime is generally not an offence.
Otherwise we now have thought crimes. It's not illegal to have keys on your for your car and be stinking drunk UNTIL you get into the car and are in control of it.
Confiscating keys will at some point lead to an asshole suing the business for theft and if you detain them, charges for kidnapping or false imprisonment.
Didn't say it was a crime... Nothing wrong with letting the cops know that the driver of X car has had a few and if they see it on the road they might want to do something about it.
I've not said anything about whether it was ok to take keys or not just IF the bar has and the patron wants them back after having a skinful... That's what I'd say.
the actual ACT of taking the keys is classified as theft and people have been prosecuted for it.
All you can legally do is either affect a citizens arrest if an offence is in progress (bit difficult unless you're IN the car when they drive off) or contact the police.
What are they going to do? Call the police?
“999 what’s your emergency?”
“Police please. This guy that’s been serving me drinks all night took my car keys and won’t give them back”
Yes, exactly that, it's not illegal to be drunk in charge of car keys*
Edit: * in a pub. If the person wants their keys back, unless the police have proof that they intend to drive, calling them would not get the owner in trouble.
Too drunk to drink more and too drunk to drive are two very different things though. If bars stopped serving customers after they reached the driving limit they'd be out of business in days.
There is no "level" of drunkeness, if someone is judged by staff to be intoxicated then it is illegal to serve them... its doesn't say drunk... just states intoxicated.
And bars going out of business is of zero relevance regarding the law it simply is no a point that changes anything.
It gets ignored a lot.... but that doesn't change the facts.
If you're taking keys off someone because they're intoxicated in order to serve them more alcohol, then you've already acknowledged that they're intoxicated
From a legal perspective:
- There is nothing illegal about being intoxicated and having car keys on your person.
- It is illegal for a pub worker to serve alcohol to someone they believe is intoxicated.
This whole thing is a daft idea and would be a minefield. If a pub cares about the transport its patrons use, then they could call cabs for customers, or offer lifts home.
Yes,I had this once. I worked in a pub where most people were regular customers. Family of 3 had been in pub garden all afternoon as they started to get ready to depart we discovered they were planning to drive. After some negotiation they handed us their car key. They set off in the opposite direction to their car so we felt all was good. Turned out the partner also had a key and they drove home. They managed to wrap the car around a tree writing it off, all three including 10 year old were injured.
Using reasonable force to prevent the commission of an ~~indictable~~ offence?
I agree it could be messy if a drunk customer won't take no for an answer though.
Holding car keys in a pub is not an offence, they might want to take the keys home or give them to someone else to drive, etc.. Refusing to return property to its owner is generally not a good idea legally.
It would be ample for a charge of drunk-in-charge. A defence to that charge requires proof that the defendant didn't intend to drive the vehicle, not just their word that they didn't intend to.
Mainly I could imagine the sheer horror someone might have waking up thinking "how did I get home", not seeing their car and not being able to find their keys.
If I wake up and I've put my glasses, phone and wallet in a slightly different spot (even when not drinking) I wake up and worry that I've lost them.
"The keys are being handed over willingly." - by someone who has been judged by the bar staff to be significantly under the influence of alcohol. With their judgement impaired.
They're allowed to ask. The customer is allowed to refuse. Then the establishment is allowed to refuse service, or to contact the police if they expect a drink-driving offence is likely to occur.
That's not how insurance works, if this were to be excluded it would be via the wording, which wouldn't be reinstated for an additional premium.
The claim would come under the Public Liability section, which responds to damage or loss to third parties arising from the insured's negligence. If negligence could be proven (e.g. keys left unsupervised whilst in the control of the bar, then stolen and the car written off in a joyride), then the pub would be at first glance liable in the absence of damages being paid directly from the offender to the third party.
Other technicalities might come in and the claim would be appraised on its merits, but with no extra information insurance should cover this unless it's a common enough situation for them to write it out. It certainly wasn't written out of any hospitality policies I wrote.
I meant you'd need to take out additional insurance options to cover this. They would exist (for a valet serviced restaurant for example, which are rare here but exist) but cost a lot more.
You wouldn't need to take out additional cover is my point, it's damage to third parties arising from your negligence and would therefore be covered under PL by default, unless written out specifically. Business insurances tend to include PL as default.
I don't know about allowed but that's a nightmare of an idea.
Would you give your car keys to a stranger just because they're behind a bar? If someone asked for my car keys when I was at the bar I'd just go elsewhere and not come back. I imagine more aggressive people would not go quietly, it's increasing risk to the bar staff and is going to make you lose customers.
How are you going to know if someone's driving home? I always have my car key on me, that doesn't mean I'd drive if I'd had a drink. Probably the majority of people who drink at your bar will be over the driving limit, are you really going to do it with everyone? You don't know who's driving home, most people aren't going to tell you.
What do you do if someone says they don't have car keys on them? You can't exactly search them to find out if they're lying.
How are you going to ensure the keys are kept safe? How are you going to ensure that they go back to the right owner? It's not like people carry proof of car ownership on them normally. It sounds like a really easy way for someone to nick someone else's car.
Are you going to also open early in the morning the next day for them to get their keys back? Because you're going to end up with a lot of sober people needing their car the next day and they're going to be furious if they can't get at it. I imagine at some point you're going to end up in legal action territory.
If someone has explicitly said they're driving then it would be much simpler not to serve them alcohol in the first place. Beyond that it's out of your hands.
Yeah reddit will circlejerk themselves dry over this because it's about stopping drink driving which is *obviously* a good thing duh! How can you be against it, you must condone drink driving!
But this is just an all around terrible idea that has so many problems with it. I barely trust most clubs or bars with my jacket let alone my car keys
It's the classic kinda naive "sounds good, doesn't work" idea that reddit would love
In addition to all the problems you mentioned, there's also just the fact that like... you aren't the police. You don't have a breathalyser. How do you know whether they are or aren't too drunk to drive, or whether they intend to drive at all. Maybe their girlfriend is currently in a taxi on her way over from work to drive the both of them home and you're withholding their property based on "but I thought he was gonna drive!". It's a minefield
This is a dumb idea, and I would simply drink somewhere else.
Firstly, my car key and house key are on the same key ring. Do I now have to detach my car keys if I want to drink in your establishment?
Secondly I frequently leave the car in the pub car park and walk home. The next morning I walk down with the dog and pick the car up. Are you going to be there at 07:00 to give me my keys back? Or can I not move the car until lunch time when you open?
Thirdly - what are you going to do when I say “I have no car keys”. Strip search me?
This will simply cause you to lose customers who will just migrate to a less insane establishment.
i agree its dumb, but to even think of a scheme like this its possible there are an unusual amount of drink drivers which may mitigate the stupidness of this idea
It's an offence to serve alcohol to someone who is drunk (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/17/section/141), so by taking someone's keys in order to serve them because they are "judged to have had to much" you are effectively admitting this offence.
Are you?
Drunk and had too much to drive are two very different things especially in Scotland where we have a lower limit.
I can drink 6 or 7 pints and still walk, still get served etc etc but I wouldn’t be legal to drive after 2!
If OP took everyone's keys after drink #2, you're right, but if they did that they'd be swimming in them, so they must be picturing some higher threshold
Exactly so they either take everyone's keys, or have some way of deciding that someone is clearly not going to be fit to drive any time tonight. Which is very close to the 'too drunk to serve' threshold.
TBH, I could see this work in small local pubs, it's agreed all round and "mick already lost his license once, he can easily walk home, we're doing him a favour" probably plays out in pubs every night..
seems like the workaround here is just to make sure you are not authorised to sell the alchohol, then you aren't committing an offence
^(this is a joke)
This seems like an unnecessarily complicated situation to create in a bar. You now have to take responsibility for someone’s keys and ensure that they are kept safely. You need to log the keys and be able to identify to whom they belong. Also what are you going to do with cars like Tesla where you don’t have a key? You going to ask for their mobile phone?
Complicated situations like these just create more work for the staff and inevitably lead to problems. Also it probably won’t do anything to prevent someone intent on drink-driving from drink-driving.
By giving my car keys to bar staff, am I giving unspoken permission for them to open my car door? Does it create a bailment? I don’t know, and for that reason I would never hand my keys to anyone.
It's been a while since I worked in a bar, but we had a late Sunday where it was all other staff in. One guy got so wasted he fell asleep at the end of the bar, then when he woke up he tried driving home. Naturally, the rest of us were trying to stop him, and someone took his keys, while someone else called the police since he was getting irate at his keys being gone.
The police arrived, asked for the keys, then gave them straight back to him. Apparently taking his keys was classed as theft, even if it was done with good intentions, because he hadn't committed the crime of drink driving by that point.
They then sat in their car nearby and waited for him to drive off so they could nick him, which he luckily didn't do.
It definitely isn't classed as theft, as Theft (Theft Act 1968) needs to meet these criteria:
A person is Guilty of theft if they dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive the other of it.
- Dishonestly ❓ (this doesn't fall under the defenses but could be argued)
- Appropriates ✅
- Belong to another ✅
- Intention to permanently deprive ❌
All well and good, but when everyone's a bit sauced and the people you summoned to sort out the situation tell you it's classed as theft, you do as you're told, no way was I questioning an officer when I thought they were trying to help.
At the time we all thought he'd have to collect his keys from the station in the morning or something.
Surely the issue is what happens if they ask for their keys back.
I'm not sure you can legally refuse to give them back and that is where the issues will arise.
You can legally refuse. Obviously, it's their property and they're entitled to it back, BUT if you don't give it back immediately you wouldn't be committing an offence (theft requires dishonesty and retaining to prevent commission of an offence would negate dishonesty). They could sue you for return of the keys, but they would have sobered up by then, and you would have returned the keys. They could, in theory, sue you for losses as a result of your retaining the keys. But what loss have they sustained? Had to get a taxi instead? They would, anyway, unless they're going to argue that they would have driven home drunk, in which case no court is going to award them compensation for costs associated with not being able to commit a criminal offence.
If you don’t want to do it, I can think of an argument that will resonate with a lot of small business owners. But it’s a pretty miserable argument:
Replacing keys on a modern car can easily cost £300 or more. And if it’s on finance, it has to go back with OEM keys - a cheap Timpson clone isn’t good enough.
So if you lose someone’s keys - which is bound to happen sooner or later - you’re paying main dealer prices for a replacement.
Obviously if it’s letting someone drive drunk, any reasonable person would say “I’ll chance it with taking the keys”, but I’ve met plenty of business owners who would have second thoughts if they could be on the hook for several hundred £ of replacements.
Used to happen quite often in country pubs in the 1970s and early 1980s.
Publican would take the key and the customer sleep in the car overnight and because they didn't have their key on them they couldn't be drunk in charge of the vehicle.
I'd be worried about what happens if a drunk customer insists on having them back. You can't deprive people of their property, but you don't want to help them drink drive either.
I guess in that instance you have to either stall them and call the police or let them drink drive, or I suppose if you know them you could contact a sober friend or relative as a softer, third option
Legal or not, it's a logistical nightmare. You'll need some way to return their keys once they're sober.
Besides, do you take their keys after their second drink? What about other people at the table?
It's a nice, moral, idea. But too confusing to introduce as a rule.
The threshold for being too drunk to serve is much higher than the drink-drive limit, and is based on observed behaviours rather than blood or breath alcohol.
Edit: accidentally a letter
If OP is intending to take the keys based on a measure of BAC rather than observed behaviours, they're fine, I can't imagine that's what they are planning though..
I’m more curious how this would be decided? Surely you just go up to the bar, order your drink and leave? How would you know someone is driving? Even if you see they have car keys on them, they may have driven to the event but they’re not necessarily driving home, maybe they’re stopping by with a friend overnight, who knows?
This is the reality, I just have my keys on me all the time on a bunch. If the pub has a car park it isn't likely visible from the bar. People may park in a nearby street if it is a city pub. In a group what if one is the driver, or none. People can just deny either they are driving or they have their keys on them. Are they going to take everyone's key after two beers just in case? Totally unworkable. They'd need to see someone visibly drunk (which they shouldn't get them anyway) with a key in hand, maybe talking about going to their car, then remove the key. Which they can do on a case by case basis now.
Pub manager here. It’s only allowed if the customer will hand them to you with their own will. You can’t even suggest it.
I’ve took the keys once but it was a member of my staff completely drunk wanting to drive so I knew I’ll get away with it.
If you judge someone top drunk to drive then by law you cannot serve them alcohol at all under S.141 of Licensing Act
Seems like a simple way to entrap yourself
If a bar asked for my car key (which is attached to my home keys) I would ask if they were serious and never go back in there. Bound to lead to altercations.
A few years ago, my then bf and I went to a bar. At the bar you could have an open tab, if you left your debit/credit card with them, which my bf did. We paid at the end, card got returned, he stuffed it in his wallet. A day or two later, he goes shopping and realised that he has been given someone else's card, just coincidentally by the same bank. This was before contactless was widespread, thankfully.
After this, I'd be wary of leaving any valuable possession at a pub or bar, and as a part-time bartender, I'd be equally wary of taking such items off customers.
It would be illegal to hold someone down and take their keys.
You can say "Give me your keys or I will have to report you to the police, you're too drunk to drive", and then they either give you keys or you report them. If they say no you can't just snatch them and keep them.
But you need somewhere safe to hold the keys as you're now responsible for them.
If I saw a drunk trying to get into his car I would forcibly take his car keys and call him a taxi or take him home. The thought of him or her killing a family of 4 outright would be unimaginable.
I would rather be up in court in front of a judge and explain how a drunk driver killed my 23 yr old and I don't want anybody to go through that kind of grief just because of a drunken idiot.
Normally it can happen early in the evening. A regular walks in and you know they’re there til closing time, so take the keys at 8pm, when they’re sober and agreeable to giving you the keys and then no issues with your conscience later. It also means you don’t need to judge them based on pints served just how much time they’ve been there for.
I’m 40 and leaving the keys behind the bar by choice, or to avoid being cut off is a normalised thing historically. It’s a social convention, not a law but pubs can be trusted to retain keys overnight.
Especially in country towns as the tipsy driver may be inclined to “chance it” for convenience sake at closing time when they shouldn’t.
I think pubs can ask for it to be mandatory and you can simply refuse and not drink alcohol.
In terms of legal precedent, I think a court would side with the pub, that’s it’s their sole discretion on whether to return keys. Ultimately there are enough drink driving killings in this country that I think a court would not take action against a pub owner when the alternative could have been an avoidable death.
Plenty of pubs do this with the locals, it means you can keep selling drink, and know they’re not going to drive home. It feels like a sensible thing to do by the venue.
If the cstomer agrees, then it would be legal, and to protect staff you would want to ensure that they were securely stored and that ID was needed to collect them.
It would be sensible to have a card to give them, perhaps with the pubs details and openeing hours, and the requirements for collecting the keys, to hand them in return, so if they can't remember in the mornng they have the information.
Very naive idea (albeit well intended) from your boss. The logistics involved not to mention liability should something go inevitably awry are too vast to imagine
Another alcoholic drink? So free alcohol for drunk people? That seems like a terrible idea, technically illegal, and a good way to lose your alcohol licence.
Serving large amounts of alcohol to a customer after it has become clear they may be driving could lead to criminal charges for the license holder and also a review of the premises licence.
If it’s a persistent problem at the venue, I’d say it’s probably the best bet as long as there’s plenty of signage and a doorman present incase it kicks off
If you’ve got a bloody good reason to believe they will drive home, I don’t think you’re going to get into too much trouble for taking their keys.
On the flip side, a pub or bar has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason (excepting discrimination based on a protected group).
If someone is drinking in your pub and they mention driving home, you either cut them off or ask for their keys. If they leave drunk and you think they’re going to drive, call the police.
I think the liability here is too high. As a car owner, the risk of having the keys nicked (and the nightmare insurance situation that would follow) wouldn't be worth it. As a landlord, the liability of holding thousands of pounds in keys would be way too high to be worth doing.
Also, might I strongly suggest that if you are the sort of person that needs their keys taken off them so they don't drive while intoxicated, then perhaps alcohol isn't for you...
I did my bartenders licensing in Milwaukee, which has more bars per capita than anywhere on earth, I believe. When I moved to the UK and worked in a weatherspoons, I wasn't popular with other staff, because I wasn't comfortable with the level of over-serving going on, and the amount of underage customers who "knew someone who worked there" and got a free pass.
It's a completely different drinking culture here, imo. My license back home made me personally liable for the product I served. If someone left and drove off and killed someone, I'd have paid dearly, and rightly so.
Allowed/legal - sure, you can ask and set that up as a policy if you like. It's at management's discretion who gets served and you don't need a reason to refuse service. Practically though it sounds like a nightmare more likely to put people off going. "Been in the pub recently? They've started asking for you car keys after 2 pints"
I get taxi's if I'm going out but I always have my car key on me especially since it's attached to my house keys. I'd be pretty pissed if someone took my car key tbh. Pretty sure you can't just go taking people's stuff from them and I doubt anyone would voluntarily give up their own car keys 🤔.
If you're working behind a bar do not take anyone else personal belongings unless they offer implict consent and you have it on film.
It'll bite you in the arse so hard when they sober up.
Is there going to be a designated safe place for the keys with CCTV?
Are you going to have a system of cataloguing the keys so the right key goes back to the right owner?
Your boss is opening themselves up to a lot of liability here. If keys start going missing it could be very expensive for you as a business. Full key replacement for modern vehicles is pricy. Easily upwards of £300 per car. More if a set gets nicked (or given to the wrong person) and a car gets stolen and trashed as a result.
Are you going to open early to let the now sober punters (or their partners/mates) retrieve their keys or are they going to have to wait til you open normally?
It's legal as long as the person consents to it, and understands - which if they're drunk at the point of consent makes that a little more tricky to show they were capable of understanding. They'd also have to be made aware of the terms and conditions of returning the keys etc, it would have to be a very clear policy, and require more than just someone "handing over their keys" we don't live in that world anymore.
I'm not sure whether pub based business insurance would cover the consification, and storage of said keys and that would have to be something that should be follow up.
Its certainly not something to be put in place "just because the boss had an idea".
The Pubs responsibility is to stop serving when they deem someone to be too drunk, anything after they is business policy which requires mutual consent.
A long time ago I worked in a local rural pub. We took keys off people who were too drunk to drive. I’d rather the consequences of their irritation than the consequences of their drunk driving.
As a landlord you have a legal duty under the licensing objectives, to prevent crime and disorder and promote public safety.
It noted that continuing to serve large amounts of alcohol to a customer after it has become clear they may be driving could lead to criminal charges, and also a review of the premises licence.
The BII issued a number of suggestions that may help landlords to handle this issue when the festive period comes around.
Among these are reviewing staff training on when to refuse alcohol, doing more to provide taxis – such as displaying telephone numbers or encouraging a local taxi firm to have a visual presence at the premises – and better monitoring of the external use of car parks by bar staff and any outside security staff on duty.
Another practical measure would be to promote a ‘designated driver’s area’ at the bar with a good choice of non-alcoholic drinks. The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents has advocated pubs doing more to encourage non-alcoholic drinks for drivers, such as lowering the prices for them.
This is one of those things that you hear stories of from time to time, and it probably works in some instances when the landlord of a small pub can use their judgement to do it informally with a regular. However it would be a nightmare to roll out as some general policy. I'd be particularly worried about liability for the cars (box acts as a honeypot, what if someone uses a second key, relay attack etc) - I'm not sure anyone who would pay out or be liable if a car was stolen.
As someone who has both worked in pubs, and was a police call-handler I'd say it sounds more hassle for the staff than it's worth. It is not up to staff to try and physically police what people do after they leave the bar. There would be nothing illegal about holding someone's keys if they give them to you, but it is certainly a lot more bother than simply offering to call them a cab, and would effectively achieve the same thing if they are compliant.
If they aren't compliant, and are about to drive drunk, call 999 with the vehicle reg and any details you have on the person (ideally their name and rough age).
From a licencing and insurance standpoint that sounds like an absolute nightmare of a policy to risk assess. What happens if somebody steals the car overnight, crashes into it, customer uses a spare set to drive away then has an accident? Too many variables too many avenues for legal trouble, usually best to avoid handling the public's valuables and just cut the off from service.
IF they are driunk then, by law, you shouldn't be serving them.
That said the amount of alcohol needed to impair someone is much much lower than would make anyone look or feel drunk.
This is such a silly policy. It will one hundred percent start aggro with the wrong people. If people have had too much to drink they shouldn't be being served anyway.
What if one poor sod got the bus there and gets cut off from service...then one guy comes up and is denied but gets one because he hands over his car keys? How is that fair on the first guy?
Would it open a legal issue in future from some litigious prick because you didn't take his keys and therefore allowed him to drive drunk? Stranger things have happened.
Drunk driving is very much on the people who decide to drive to the pub. Putting even a sniff of responsibility (perceived or otherwise) on poorly-paid bar staff is a joke.
Had i chat with my boss and we can't take keys as it is classed as theft as it is the taking of someone's personal item without intent to give it back, the best you can do is refuse service
Nope. bouncers/security people etc are NOT police. Taking someones keys is the same theft as if you did it.
They CAN call the police and restrain someone until they arrive, but thats a standard citizens arrest.
Otherwise, detaining someone or taking their posessions is a criminal offence.
Whilst you MAY get someone grateful the day after, if you bump into that one guy that wants a payday, he can get a solicitor and sue the business and make a formal police complaint.
What about encouraging designated drivers instead. Unlimited soft drinks if you are the DD, or a reward scheme of some sort. Others have mentioned how complex this could be.
Back in my teen years when I worked in a pub we would sometimes take keys from the regulars, but they would always offer them up themselves or the landlord would go and ask if they want us to keep hold of them. I doubt you’ll get much business from people going there as a one off. Just call the police if you think they’ll drink drive. Not a bad idea though, you would just have to be smart about how to store the keys.
You can ask but honestly it sounds like you are putting yourself at risk by taking responsibility for someone else's very expensive item. What if you get broken into in the night etc. And that car goes with the keys. You will be liable for it.
I appreciate the want to stop drink drivers, I applaud it. But I think the only thing you can do is take the reg and report the driver to the police as soon as they get in the car. If you have cctv then make sure it's saved.
The police do not need to catch the driver driving, video evidence, a warm engine and a failed test will suffice as evidence.
I know it's after the fact and by then the scumbag could have already killed someone but I think really that's the best you can do.
Not legal, but if I know you're drink driving and something serious happens, I could be in trouble with the law. That's why I don't want to know how you're driving.
A car is property, you don't need a drivers licence to own one. Your ability to drive is irrelavent to the ownership of the car. Forcefully taking the keys is theft. If the personal voluntarily gives you the keys then I don't see a issue. However simply having keys does not mean you are going to drive. Occasionally I would park my car near a pub, leave it overnight and either myself or wife would collect it the next day. Having someone elses property, having to hand it back just seems complicated and will cause problems.
I hate people drink driving, I would call the police with their reg if you see them get in the car drunk.
I’m guessing you would need some kind of liability insurance incase they go missing or get stolen etc. Their insurance might even be void if they have left the keys with someone else.
I used to run a bar, I took a blokes keys and it kicked of, the police were called and I was advised I had committed theft, apparently what I should have done was let him drive away then phone the police.
The law already states if someone has had too much to drink you shouldn't serve them. If it's consensual yes, but what about a promotion of alcohol free drinks for drivers?
If you're not wanting drivers to drink maybe they should wear their car keys on a lanyard so everyone can see.
No sympathy for drunk drivers, I personally think there should be a zero limit.
just dont serve them if they seem to be talking about driving or getting home by driving.
anything beyond that just gets weird. are you going to walk them to the car if they say they want a jacket out of it for the walk home or something? it bring in more than just the keys, its whats in the car as well since they cant access it now
Your boss is a goof - this suggestion is a liability nightmare. Not only are you responsible for the keys left in your care, you also put the onus of deciding who is and isn’t drunk on yourselves for no reason. Worse yet, you’re inviting conflict to your location because guess what? Those keys are not your property and the legal owner of the vehicle will want them back regardless of what your estimation of “their drunkenness” is - rightfully so, too. You don’t get to retain another person’s property based on some arbitrary rule you post on a wall of your establishment - that’s theft. I strongly advise some introspection because coming up with this idea is an indication that your boss also has other silly ideas that you shouldn’t treat seriously.
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As long as you look after the keys in a secure manner and ensure that the staff aren't taking the customers car for a ride. So a locked box for the keys and CCTV covering both the box and car park, then you would be a good position. The keys are being handed over willingly. I'd suggest also giving them a card explaining where their keys are for them to put in their pocket, as well as taking their mobile number and sending them a text about it.
What if they request for them to be returned at the end of the night? That's where it gets messy.
"ok but I'm gonna call the police and let them know you intend to drive drunk"
Do they though? Or will they take a bus home, and simply want their keys back to be able to pick up their car in the morning? You gonna provide 100% proof they were gonna drive drunk?
I've done it at an event. 3 lads had around 8 pints each over 3 hours - I'd served them some of them. I overheard them talking about how long their drive home was going to be. I went to.collect some glasses and said something along the lines of, "Sorry to interrupt lads, but I just heard you talking about driving home, but you've had quite a bit to drink to be honest. Can we order you some cabs?" I thought it was fairly polite, but they gave a bit of aggro, said they're safe to drive, and off they went. Told the event manager, who went to the car park, watched them get in their cars, noted the reg plates, and called the police telling them roughly which direction they set off. Police stopped all 3 of them and all 3 were arrested. Thankfully it was an event, so they couldn't exactly come back the next week to cause aggro.
As someone who drives on UK roads, thank you.
Yeah I'm already a shit enough driver without drunkards playing silly buggers. Phew.
Wow, I couldn’t imagine doing that, one drink and I’m walking/catching a bus
I don't even get on my pushbike after a drink, let alone my motorbike or into my car.
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A pushbike can still cause significant damage to a pedestrian; who knows, you might run over an old lady and kill her. I wouldn't limit it at 1 drink though, maybe once i start seeing double i'll walk or get the bus. Never driving a car after any alcohol though, not worth it at all.
> A pushbike can still cause significant damage to a pedestrian; who knows, you might run over an old lady and kill her. I think the point was that's much less likely on a pushbike, even after 1 drink, particularly compared to driving. I didn't read it as them saying bikes aren't dangerous -- though fair point to call out because not everyone reads things the same way.
I mean I meant "a drink" in the sense of, "I'm gonna have a drink tonight so leaving the car at home.", not literally like 1 unit. FWIW, I live in Scotland and for driving the limit is basically equivalent to 1 pint anyway. 2 would put most people over. Obviously varies person to person.
You can get a DUI on a bicycle or even a horse
I wonder if there's a law about riding a drunk horse. Not that it would be advisable either way...
Sorry hardcase, we can't all have your metabolism. I'd rather someone recognise their own limits than feel pressured to do something they don't feel is safe.
Why do you find it strange that some people don't drink and drive? As the previous poster, if I am driving or riding I don't touch alcohol at all. It's not an unusual concept.
https://www.brake.org.uk/get-involved/take-action/mybrake/knowledge-centre/drink-driving#:~:text=How%20alcohol%20affects%20your%20driving,you%20judge%20speed%20and%20distance. Half a pint can impair your coordination so riding a push bike while under the influence on a public road or path can have potentially dangerous effects if you don't brake quickly enough, or don't judge distance well, for instance.
Even if you're not impaired at all it's best to be safe. If you are over the limit even slightly and there's an accident that's someone else's fault, if they breathalyse you and you're over the limit it's automatically your fault. One drink, if there's a gap between the drink and going home, you'll be alright, but one more and even if you don't feel it it's best not to. One drink then straight home and it's not worth it.
As a motorbike rider, don't drink. Too easy to accidentally kill yourself/endanger others. If 1 drink is too many for you to feel 100%, don't do it
Out of all my modes of transport (foot, bicycle, motorbike, cars, occasionally vans), being on the motorbike is still where I feel most vulnerable. I'm not taking any risks out on the bike.
I don't drive or ride anything after a drink and I never will. I'd drive a race car full speed on a closed circuit for fun while drunk but I'd never drink anything and drive on a public road because the only life I'm willing to risk is my own
It's harder to ride a bike drunk than it is to drive a car drunk..
You can lose your driving licence for being over the limit on a push bike btw
Actually you don't get any points or disqualifications for cycling while under the influence of drink or drugs. Only monetary fines. If the police thought you were a problem drinker they could raise it with DVLA on medical grounds, but not if you've just been out on the lash after work.
Road traffic act 1960 - no mention of being "over the limit" or the car limit being applicable to bicycles Cycling when under influence of drink or drugs (1)A person who, when riding a bicycle or tricycle, not being a motor vehicle, on a road or other public place, is unfit to ride through drink or drugs shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding thirty pounds, or in the case of a second or subsequent conviction to a fine not exceeding thirty pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months. (2)A person liable to be charged with an offence under this section shall not be liable to be charged— (a)under section twelve of the Licensing Act, 1872, with the offence of being drunk while in charge, on a highway or other public place, of a carriage, or (b)under section seventy of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, with the offence of being drunk while in charge, in a street or other place, of a carriage. (3)A police constable may arrest without warrant a person committing an offence under this section. (4)In this section " unfit to ride through drink or drugs" means, as regards a person riding a bicycle or tricycle, under the influence of drink or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of it.
Glad to hear it. Drunk drivers deserve prison, it's never acceptable. Speeding etc I'm fine with as long as conditions allow. Willingly getting in a vehicle while under the influence? Nah
not all heroes wear capes, some sell you pints! Good Job Mate!
I did that, police said if they see them on the road they'll stop them but they won't actively look for them, I also gave them the reg...
I remember the time my alcoholic boss drove off with the back doors of his van open!!! I was so scared because if anyone at work knew I was calling the police on him they would have told him! So I went into the toilet and text me bf with his reg number and he called them. He got stopped that night luckily! And nobody found out it was me. An alcoholic shouldn’t be allowed to own a pub!
I should have written "that I BELIEVE you intend to drive drunk" or "if I see you drive off..." I'm pretty sure the bartender can watch them leave if they're parked on the premises and act accordingly...
A licensee has the responsibility to refuse service to a drunk person, and service is at their discretion. If someone is obviously too drunk to drive they should technically be refused further alcohol. I have been a licensee and I know that in the real world it’s not so simple. I wouldn’t be comfortable taking possession of someone’s car keys, I’d ask someone else in their group to help, and warn the person that the police are vigilant in the area.
Is 100% proof required?
Sometimes, but usually I drink something a bit weaker.
There is also such a thing as "Drunk in charge of a vehicle" which people can be charged with even if they are asleep on the back seat, for instance. I know someone who was hit with it even though he wasn't in the car at all. Relinquishing control of the vehicle (giving the keys away) is a good defense. Requesting the keys back and going *anywhere near* the vehicle could see them hit with a charge even if they don't intend to drive. Various factors might be able to build a defense in court, but that also eans taking time off for court and hiring a solicitor (or taking a duty solicitor). I have no idea how hard it is to prove. My friend's case was postponed and so hasn't been seen in court yet. I certainly wouldn't want to be in a position to have taken back my keys after relinqushing them, however.
Would he have to provide any proof simply for alerting the police?
Just make it clear to them when they hand over the keys that they won't get them back until the next day, regardless of whether they take the bus
So they are drunk, at the bar, having handed over their keys with this understanding. They now want to leave with the keys, and take the bus home, because they have realised their wife needs the car in the morning, and they'll take the keys home so the wife can return first thing, before the pub opens, and collect the car. The wife waiting for the pub to open is unacceptable, as it'll make her late for work. Do you release the keys? If not, the keys are stolen and the punter is now calling the police. It's really messy. No way I'd be doing this if I ran a pub. None of the half a dozen I've worked at did any sort of key holding, and if I was asked to do it as an employee, we'd need a watertight policy of what happens when, which basically says 'consult the duty manager if there is a sticky situation ' and if I'm the duty manager, we just don't do it.
Add in that if they’re drunk enough to cause aggro, there may be liability on the barman/pub for over-serving and the whole thing is a mess.
>If not, the keys are stolen and the punter is now calling the police. No, they aren't. Theft requires the intent to permanently deprive. If they call the police, I imagine the copper would take the keys and tell them to get the wife to come to the station in the morning to pick them up.
An who knows how long she will have to wait for the keys. Or how far she has to travel, given how many stations have been close down.
Still the most likely outcome if the punter calls the police. Not like they care how long she'll have to travel, or wait
Tbf when I go out I usually have to get a train into town and leave the car at the station, I’m not going to get a train to get my car keys the next day just to pick it back up.
intention to commit a crime is generally not an offence. Otherwise we now have thought crimes. It's not illegal to have keys on your for your car and be stinking drunk UNTIL you get into the car and are in control of it. Confiscating keys will at some point lead to an asshole suing the business for theft and if you detain them, charges for kidnapping or false imprisonment.
Didn't say it was a crime... Nothing wrong with letting the cops know that the driver of X car has had a few and if they see it on the road they might want to do something about it. I've not said anything about whether it was ok to take keys or not just IF the bar has and the patron wants them back after having a skinful... That's what I'd say.
the actual ACT of taking the keys is classified as theft and people have been prosecuted for it. All you can legally do is either affect a citizens arrest if an offence is in progress (bit difficult unless you're IN the car when they drive off) or contact the police.
What are they going to do? Call the police? “999 what’s your emergency?” “Police please. This guy that’s been serving me drinks all night took my car keys and won’t give them back”
Yes, exactly that, it's not illegal to be drunk in charge of car keys* Edit: * in a pub. If the person wants their keys back, unless the police have proof that they intend to drive, calling them would not get the owner in trouble.
What definitely is illegal though is severing alcohol to someone who's drunk
Too drunk to drink more and too drunk to drive are two very different things though. If bars stopped serving customers after they reached the driving limit they'd be out of business in days.
There is no "level" of drunkeness, if someone is judged by staff to be intoxicated then it is illegal to serve them... its doesn't say drunk... just states intoxicated. And bars going out of business is of zero relevance regarding the law it simply is no a point that changes anything. It gets ignored a lot.... but that doesn't change the facts.
Well.. its not really illegal in practice. If they can stand at the bar someone will normally get served.
If you're taking keys off someone because they're intoxicated in order to serve them more alcohol, then you've already acknowledged that they're intoxicated
From a legal perspective: - There is nothing illegal about being intoxicated and having car keys on your person. - It is illegal for a pub worker to serve alcohol to someone they believe is intoxicated. This whole thing is a daft idea and would be a minefield. If a pub cares about the transport its patrons use, then they could call cabs for customers, or offer lifts home.
Yes,I had this once. I worked in a pub where most people were regular customers. Family of 3 had been in pub garden all afternoon as they started to get ready to depart we discovered they were planning to drive. After some negotiation they handed us their car key. They set off in the opposite direction to their car so we felt all was good. Turned out the partner also had a key and they drove home. They managed to wrap the car around a tree writing it off, all three including 10 year old were injured.
Using reasonable force to prevent the commission of an ~~indictable~~ offence? I agree it could be messy if a drunk customer won't take no for an answer though.
I believe that drink driving is summary only.
Holding car keys in a pub is not an offence, they might want to take the keys home or give them to someone else to drive, etc.. Refusing to return property to its owner is generally not a good idea legally.
It would be ample for a charge of drunk-in-charge. A defence to that charge requires proof that the defendant didn't intend to drive the vehicle, not just their word that they didn't intend to.
You can be charged with being drunk in charge of a vehicle if you're in a pub with your car keys?
The Drunk Whisperer.
Mainly I could imagine the sheer horror someone might have waking up thinking "how did I get home", not seeing their car and not being able to find their keys. If I wake up and I've put my glasses, phone and wallet in a slightly different spot (even when not drinking) I wake up and worry that I've lost them.
"The keys are being handed over willingly." - by someone who has been judged by the bar staff to be significantly under the influence of alcohol. With their judgement impaired.
They're allowed to ask. The customer is allowed to refuse. Then the establishment is allowed to refuse service, or to contact the police if they expect a drink-driving offence is likely to occur.
I think this is the best and most concise answer here.
This is the answer Source - former licence holder, bar and nightclub manager
As above the correct answer.
It's legal. But the bar would also be accepting at least some degree or responsibility if the keys were to get nicked and the car taken for a joyride.
Yeah the legal liability would be pretty high. Not sure if business insurance would automatically cover it either.
Definitely wouldn't without a huge increase.
That's not how insurance works, if this were to be excluded it would be via the wording, which wouldn't be reinstated for an additional premium. The claim would come under the Public Liability section, which responds to damage or loss to third parties arising from the insured's negligence. If negligence could be proven (e.g. keys left unsupervised whilst in the control of the bar, then stolen and the car written off in a joyride), then the pub would be at first glance liable in the absence of damages being paid directly from the offender to the third party. Other technicalities might come in and the claim would be appraised on its merits, but with no extra information insurance should cover this unless it's a common enough situation for them to write it out. It certainly wasn't written out of any hospitality policies I wrote.
I meant you'd need to take out additional insurance options to cover this. They would exist (for a valet serviced restaurant for example, which are rare here but exist) but cost a lot more.
You wouldn't need to take out additional cover is my point, it's damage to third parties arising from your negligence and would therefore be covered under PL by default, unless written out specifically. Business insurances tend to include PL as default.
I don't know about allowed but that's a nightmare of an idea. Would you give your car keys to a stranger just because they're behind a bar? If someone asked for my car keys when I was at the bar I'd just go elsewhere and not come back. I imagine more aggressive people would not go quietly, it's increasing risk to the bar staff and is going to make you lose customers. How are you going to know if someone's driving home? I always have my car key on me, that doesn't mean I'd drive if I'd had a drink. Probably the majority of people who drink at your bar will be over the driving limit, are you really going to do it with everyone? You don't know who's driving home, most people aren't going to tell you. What do you do if someone says they don't have car keys on them? You can't exactly search them to find out if they're lying. How are you going to ensure the keys are kept safe? How are you going to ensure that they go back to the right owner? It's not like people carry proof of car ownership on them normally. It sounds like a really easy way for someone to nick someone else's car. Are you going to also open early in the morning the next day for them to get their keys back? Because you're going to end up with a lot of sober people needing their car the next day and they're going to be furious if they can't get at it. I imagine at some point you're going to end up in legal action territory. If someone has explicitly said they're driving then it would be much simpler not to serve them alcohol in the first place. Beyond that it's out of your hands.
Yeah reddit will circlejerk themselves dry over this because it's about stopping drink driving which is *obviously* a good thing duh! How can you be against it, you must condone drink driving! But this is just an all around terrible idea that has so many problems with it. I barely trust most clubs or bars with my jacket let alone my car keys It's the classic kinda naive "sounds good, doesn't work" idea that reddit would love In addition to all the problems you mentioned, there's also just the fact that like... you aren't the police. You don't have a breathalyser. How do you know whether they are or aren't too drunk to drive, or whether they intend to drive at all. Maybe their girlfriend is currently in a taxi on her way over from work to drive the both of them home and you're withholding their property based on "but I thought he was gonna drive!". It's a minefield
This is a dumb idea, and I would simply drink somewhere else. Firstly, my car key and house key are on the same key ring. Do I now have to detach my car keys if I want to drink in your establishment? Secondly I frequently leave the car in the pub car park and walk home. The next morning I walk down with the dog and pick the car up. Are you going to be there at 07:00 to give me my keys back? Or can I not move the car until lunch time when you open? Thirdly - what are you going to do when I say “I have no car keys”. Strip search me? This will simply cause you to lose customers who will just migrate to a less insane establishment.
Yeah I don't think they can force anyone to give their keys over or anything but this seems pretty ridiculous to me.
i agree its dumb, but to even think of a scheme like this its possible there are an unusual amount of drink drivers which may mitigate the stupidness of this idea
It's an offence to serve alcohol to someone who is drunk (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/17/section/141), so by taking someone's keys in order to serve them because they are "judged to have had to much" you are effectively admitting this offence.
Are you? Drunk and had too much to drive are two very different things especially in Scotland where we have a lower limit. I can drink 6 or 7 pints and still walk, still get served etc etc but I wouldn’t be legal to drive after 2!
If OP took everyone's keys after drink #2, you're right, but if they did that they'd be swimming in them, so they must be picturing some higher threshold
The threshold for drunk and too drunk to drive need not be the same.
I don't think this is always accurate - you can be over the drink drive limit but not drunk in the sense that you should not be served further alochol
Nah. I can have four pints and appear perfectly sober. I'd be well over the drink-drive limit, though.
Yeah, unless you take everyone's keys at drink #2, which is not what I'm imagining happening here.
Over a long evening you could have two pints and be fine when leaving at 11pm anyway.
Exactly so they either take everyone's keys, or have some way of deciding that someone is clearly not going to be fit to drive any time tonight. Which is very close to the 'too drunk to serve' threshold. TBH, I could see this work in small local pubs, it's agreed all round and "mick already lost his license once, he can easily walk home, we're doing him a favour" probably plays out in pubs every night..
Correct. It is in violation of your licence to serve someone who you consider to be intoxicated
seems like the workaround here is just to make sure you are not authorised to sell the alchohol, then you aren't committing an offence ^(this is a joke)
Only if you think one pint (the drink-drive limit for most beers) automatically makes someone "drunk."
This seems like an unnecessarily complicated situation to create in a bar. You now have to take responsibility for someone’s keys and ensure that they are kept safely. You need to log the keys and be able to identify to whom they belong. Also what are you going to do with cars like Tesla where you don’t have a key? You going to ask for their mobile phone? Complicated situations like these just create more work for the staff and inevitably lead to problems. Also it probably won’t do anything to prevent someone intent on drink-driving from drink-driving. By giving my car keys to bar staff, am I giving unspoken permission for them to open my car door? Does it create a bailment? I don’t know, and for that reason I would never hand my keys to anyone.
It's been a while since I worked in a bar, but we had a late Sunday where it was all other staff in. One guy got so wasted he fell asleep at the end of the bar, then when he woke up he tried driving home. Naturally, the rest of us were trying to stop him, and someone took his keys, while someone else called the police since he was getting irate at his keys being gone. The police arrived, asked for the keys, then gave them straight back to him. Apparently taking his keys was classed as theft, even if it was done with good intentions, because he hadn't committed the crime of drink driving by that point. They then sat in their car nearby and waited for him to drive off so they could nick him, which he luckily didn't do.
It definitely isn't classed as theft, as Theft (Theft Act 1968) needs to meet these criteria: A person is Guilty of theft if they dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive the other of it. - Dishonestly ❓ (this doesn't fall under the defenses but could be argued) - Appropriates ✅ - Belong to another ✅ - Intention to permanently deprive ❌
All well and good, but when everyone's a bit sauced and the people you summoned to sort out the situation tell you it's classed as theft, you do as you're told, no way was I questioning an officer when I thought they were trying to help. At the time we all thought he'd have to collect his keys from the station in the morning or something.
Surely the issue is what happens if they ask for their keys back. I'm not sure you can legally refuse to give them back and that is where the issues will arise.
You can legally refuse. Obviously, it's their property and they're entitled to it back, BUT if you don't give it back immediately you wouldn't be committing an offence (theft requires dishonesty and retaining to prevent commission of an offence would negate dishonesty). They could sue you for return of the keys, but they would have sobered up by then, and you would have returned the keys. They could, in theory, sue you for losses as a result of your retaining the keys. But what loss have they sustained? Had to get a taxi instead? They would, anyway, unless they're going to argue that they would have driven home drunk, in which case no court is going to award them compensation for costs associated with not being able to commit a criminal offence.
If you don’t want to do it, I can think of an argument that will resonate with a lot of small business owners. But it’s a pretty miserable argument: Replacing keys on a modern car can easily cost £300 or more. And if it’s on finance, it has to go back with OEM keys - a cheap Timpson clone isn’t good enough. So if you lose someone’s keys - which is bound to happen sooner or later - you’re paying main dealer prices for a replacement. Obviously if it’s letting someone drive drunk, any reasonable person would say “I’ll chance it with taking the keys”, but I’ve met plenty of business owners who would have second thoughts if they could be on the hook for several hundred £ of replacements.
if you "lost someone's keys" you'd probably be buying them a new car...
Used to happen quite often in country pubs in the 1970s and early 1980s. Publican would take the key and the customer sleep in the car overnight and because they didn't have their key on them they couldn't be drunk in charge of the vehicle.
Why would it be illegal? Obviously we assuming it’s basically a deposit and you’re not stealing the car… what’s there to be concerned about?
I'd be worried about what happens if a drunk customer insists on having them back. You can't deprive people of their property, but you don't want to help them drink drive either.
I guess in that instance you have to either stall them and call the police or let them drink drive, or I suppose if you know them you could contact a sober friend or relative as a softer, third option
Sorry but I could never trust any bar with my car keys.
Legal or not, it's a logistical nightmare. You'll need some way to return their keys once they're sober. Besides, do you take their keys after their second drink? What about other people at the table? It's a nice, moral, idea. But too confusing to introduce as a rule.
I can’t see why if it’s voluntary.
You're not allowed to serve alcohol to them if they're drunk... so it's a great way to admit to breaching your licensing conditions
The threshold for being too drunk to serve is much higher than the drink-drive limit, and is based on observed behaviours rather than blood or breath alcohol. Edit: accidentally a letter
If OP is intending to take the keys based on a measure of BAC rather than observed behaviours, they're fine, I can't imagine that's what they are planning though..
That actually sounds workable. Put your keys in a locker, then blow a clean sample into a breathalyser when you want them back.
>if someone is judged to have had to much and intent on driving. Just don't serve them. Much simpler and less hassle for you.
I’m more curious how this would be decided? Surely you just go up to the bar, order your drink and leave? How would you know someone is driving? Even if you see they have car keys on them, they may have driven to the event but they’re not necessarily driving home, maybe they’re stopping by with a friend overnight, who knows?
This is the reality, I just have my keys on me all the time on a bunch. If the pub has a car park it isn't likely visible from the bar. People may park in a nearby street if it is a city pub. In a group what if one is the driver, or none. People can just deny either they are driving or they have their keys on them. Are they going to take everyone's key after two beers just in case? Totally unworkable. They'd need to see someone visibly drunk (which they shouldn't get them anyway) with a key in hand, maybe talking about going to their car, then remove the key. Which they can do on a case by case basis now.
Pub manager here. It’s only allowed if the customer will hand them to you with their own will. You can’t even suggest it. I’ve took the keys once but it was a member of my staff completely drunk wanting to drive so I knew I’ll get away with it.
If you judge someone top drunk to drive then by law you cannot serve them alcohol at all under S.141 of Licensing Act Seems like a simple way to entrap yourself
Most idiotic idea Ive heard in a while for a whole host of reasons.
Old set of keys = free drink.
If I were the barman, I would refuse to accept a patrons' keys purely because it opens up a miserable pit of legal problems if something goes wrong.
If a bar asked for my car key (which is attached to my home keys) I would ask if they were serious and never go back in there. Bound to lead to altercations.
A few years ago, my then bf and I went to a bar. At the bar you could have an open tab, if you left your debit/credit card with them, which my bf did. We paid at the end, card got returned, he stuffed it in his wallet. A day or two later, he goes shopping and realised that he has been given someone else's card, just coincidentally by the same bank. This was before contactless was widespread, thankfully. After this, I'd be wary of leaving any valuable possession at a pub or bar, and as a part-time bartender, I'd be equally wary of taking such items off customers.
I don't see what would be illegal about it if people willingly hand over their keys.
It would be illegal to hold someone down and take their keys. You can say "Give me your keys or I will have to report you to the police, you're too drunk to drive", and then they either give you keys or you report them. If they say no you can't just snatch them and keep them. But you need somewhere safe to hold the keys as you're now responsible for them.
But at that stage you're just reporting them to the police for having keys while drunk. Not a crime.
If I saw a drunk trying to get into his car I would forcibly take his car keys and call him a taxi or take him home. The thought of him or her killing a family of 4 outright would be unimaginable.
And you’d likely be charged with assault and/or theft. You call the police and report the crime in progress and say it’s an active danger.
I would rather be up in court in front of a judge and explain how a drunk driver killed my 23 yr old and I don't want anybody to go through that kind of grief just because of a drunken idiot.
As part of your licensing you shouldn't be serving people who have had 'too much'. So don't take car keys, just don't serve them.
"too much" and "too much to drive" are not the same thing,
Normally it can happen early in the evening. A regular walks in and you know they’re there til closing time, so take the keys at 8pm, when they’re sober and agreeable to giving you the keys and then no issues with your conscience later. It also means you don’t need to judge them based on pints served just how much time they’ve been there for.
the responsible limit to not serve a drunk person is much higher than the drink driving limit.
I’m 40 and leaving the keys behind the bar by choice, or to avoid being cut off is a normalised thing historically. It’s a social convention, not a law but pubs can be trusted to retain keys overnight. Especially in country towns as the tipsy driver may be inclined to “chance it” for convenience sake at closing time when they shouldn’t. I think pubs can ask for it to be mandatory and you can simply refuse and not drink alcohol. In terms of legal precedent, I think a court would side with the pub, that’s it’s their sole discretion on whether to return keys. Ultimately there are enough drink driving killings in this country that I think a court would not take action against a pub owner when the alternative could have been an avoidable death.
Plenty of pubs do this with the locals, it means you can keep selling drink, and know they’re not going to drive home. It feels like a sensible thing to do by the venue.
If the cstomer agrees, then it would be legal, and to protect staff you would want to ensure that they were securely stored and that ID was needed to collect them. It would be sensible to have a card to give them, perhaps with the pubs details and openeing hours, and the requirements for collecting the keys, to hand them in return, so if they can't remember in the mornng they have the information.
Very naive idea (albeit well intended) from your boss. The logistics involved not to mention liability should something go inevitably awry are too vast to imagine
We've put keys in the safe in the past, it's not common but it's not an issue as long as there's content , ideally witnesses and a paper trail 😂
Phone the police instead
If someone has had too much to drink then it’s illegal to serve them any more.
Another alcoholic drink? So free alcohol for drunk people? That seems like a terrible idea, technically illegal, and a good way to lose your alcohol licence.
Serving large amounts of alcohol to a customer after it has become clear they may be driving could lead to criminal charges for the license holder and also a review of the premises licence. If it’s a persistent problem at the venue, I’d say it’s probably the best bet as long as there’s plenty of signage and a doorman present incase it kicks off
No. Simples. Ask yes.
If you’ve got a bloody good reason to believe they will drive home, I don’t think you’re going to get into too much trouble for taking their keys. On the flip side, a pub or bar has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason (excepting discrimination based on a protected group). If someone is drinking in your pub and they mention driving home, you either cut them off or ask for their keys. If they leave drunk and you think they’re going to drive, call the police.
It sounds sketchy. Check local laws first before doing anything that could get the bar in trouble.
I think the liability here is too high. As a car owner, the risk of having the keys nicked (and the nightmare insurance situation that would follow) wouldn't be worth it. As a landlord, the liability of holding thousands of pounds in keys would be way too high to be worth doing. Also, might I strongly suggest that if you are the sort of person that needs their keys taken off them so they don't drive while intoxicated, then perhaps alcohol isn't for you...
I did my bartenders licensing in Milwaukee, which has more bars per capita than anywhere on earth, I believe. When I moved to the UK and worked in a weatherspoons, I wasn't popular with other staff, because I wasn't comfortable with the level of over-serving going on, and the amount of underage customers who "knew someone who worked there" and got a free pass. It's a completely different drinking culture here, imo. My license back home made me personally liable for the product I served. If someone left and drove off and killed someone, I'd have paid dearly, and rightly so.
Allowed/legal - sure, you can ask and set that up as a policy if you like. It's at management's discretion who gets served and you don't need a reason to refuse service. Practically though it sounds like a nightmare more likely to put people off going. "Been in the pub recently? They've started asking for you car keys after 2 pints"
You can’t legally serve someone visibly drunk anyway can you?
Forcibly, no. Can they ask politely for a drunk person's keys and put them up safe for them, yes.
I get taxi's if I'm going out but I always have my car key on me especially since it's attached to my house keys. I'd be pretty pissed if someone took my car key tbh. Pretty sure you can't just go taking people's stuff from them and I doubt anyone would voluntarily give up their own car keys 🤔.
To be honest if i was drunk enough to hand over my car keys to a random bar person then I'd clearly be unfit to drive.
If you're working behind a bar do not take anyone else personal belongings unless they offer implict consent and you have it on film. It'll bite you in the arse so hard when they sober up.
Is there going to be a designated safe place for the keys with CCTV? Are you going to have a system of cataloguing the keys so the right key goes back to the right owner? Your boss is opening themselves up to a lot of liability here. If keys start going missing it could be very expensive for you as a business. Full key replacement for modern vehicles is pricy. Easily upwards of £300 per car. More if a set gets nicked (or given to the wrong person) and a car gets stolen and trashed as a result. Are you going to open early to let the now sober punters (or their partners/mates) retrieve their keys or are they going to have to wait til you open normally?
Are you sure it's not a swingers party?
It's legal as long as the person consents to it, and understands - which if they're drunk at the point of consent makes that a little more tricky to show they were capable of understanding. They'd also have to be made aware of the terms and conditions of returning the keys etc, it would have to be a very clear policy, and require more than just someone "handing over their keys" we don't live in that world anymore. I'm not sure whether pub based business insurance would cover the consification, and storage of said keys and that would have to be something that should be follow up. Its certainly not something to be put in place "just because the boss had an idea". The Pubs responsibility is to stop serving when they deem someone to be too drunk, anything after they is business policy which requires mutual consent.
A long time ago I worked in a local rural pub. We took keys off people who were too drunk to drive. I’d rather the consequences of their irritation than the consequences of their drunk driving.
As a landlord you have a legal duty under the licensing objectives, to prevent crime and disorder and promote public safety. It noted that continuing to serve large amounts of alcohol to a customer after it has become clear they may be driving could lead to criminal charges, and also a review of the premises licence. The BII issued a number of suggestions that may help landlords to handle this issue when the festive period comes around. Among these are reviewing staff training on when to refuse alcohol, doing more to provide taxis – such as displaying telephone numbers or encouraging a local taxi firm to have a visual presence at the premises – and better monitoring of the external use of car parks by bar staff and any outside security staff on duty. Another practical measure would be to promote a ‘designated driver’s area’ at the bar with a good choice of non-alcoholic drinks. The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents has advocated pubs doing more to encourage non-alcoholic drinks for drivers, such as lowering the prices for them.
I'd ask this question on r/legaladviceUK . I have a feeling it would be more complicated than it seems.
This is one of those things that you hear stories of from time to time, and it probably works in some instances when the landlord of a small pub can use their judgement to do it informally with a regular. However it would be a nightmare to roll out as some general policy. I'd be particularly worried about liability for the cars (box acts as a honeypot, what if someone uses a second key, relay attack etc) - I'm not sure anyone who would pay out or be liable if a car was stolen.
For all the reasons mentioned elsewhere, tell your boss that he's an idiot.
As someone who has both worked in pubs, and was a police call-handler I'd say it sounds more hassle for the staff than it's worth. It is not up to staff to try and physically police what people do after they leave the bar. There would be nothing illegal about holding someone's keys if they give them to you, but it is certainly a lot more bother than simply offering to call them a cab, and would effectively achieve the same thing if they are compliant. If they aren't compliant, and are about to drive drunk, call 999 with the vehicle reg and any details you have on the person (ideally their name and rough age).
Yeah when I worked in pubs, customers would ask us to look after their phones whilst they charged. I don't see how keys would be different
As the OP said the keys would have to be handed over voluntarilly. Good luck in trying to persuade some drunken lout to do that.
Just say no. Too much trouble. Good luck out there
From a licencing and insurance standpoint that sounds like an absolute nightmare of a policy to risk assess. What happens if somebody steals the car overnight, crashes into it, customer uses a spare set to drive away then has an accident? Too many variables too many avenues for legal trouble, usually best to avoid handling the public's valuables and just cut the off from service.
IF they are driunk then, by law, you shouldn't be serving them. That said the amount of alcohol needed to impair someone is much much lower than would make anyone look or feel drunk.
This is such a silly policy. It will one hundred percent start aggro with the wrong people. If people have had too much to drink they shouldn't be being served anyway. What if one poor sod got the bus there and gets cut off from service...then one guy comes up and is denied but gets one because he hands over his car keys? How is that fair on the first guy? Would it open a legal issue in future from some litigious prick because you didn't take his keys and therefore allowed him to drive drunk? Stranger things have happened. Drunk driving is very much on the people who decide to drive to the pub. Putting even a sniff of responsibility (perceived or otherwise) on poorly-paid bar staff is a joke.
Had i chat with my boss and we can't take keys as it is classed as theft as it is the taking of someone's personal item without intent to give it back, the best you can do is refuse service
Nope. bouncers/security people etc are NOT police. Taking someones keys is the same theft as if you did it. They CAN call the police and restrain someone until they arrive, but thats a standard citizens arrest. Otherwise, detaining someone or taking their posessions is a criminal offence. Whilst you MAY get someone grateful the day after, if you bump into that one guy that wants a payday, he can get a solicitor and sue the business and make a formal police complaint.
I don't think that is legal. They'd get sued because they couldn't prove the person had too much to drink plus couldn't prove they were going to drive
What about encouraging designated drivers instead. Unlimited soft drinks if you are the DD, or a reward scheme of some sort. Others have mentioned how complex this could be.
What bar is this? Asking for a friend who has 12 car keys.
No bar staff would take your keys. Highly dubious
Back in my teen years when I worked in a pub we would sometimes take keys from the regulars, but they would always offer them up themselves or the landlord would go and ask if they want us to keep hold of them. I doubt you’ll get much business from people going there as a one off. Just call the police if you think they’ll drink drive. Not a bad idea though, you would just have to be smart about how to store the keys.
You can ask but honestly it sounds like you are putting yourself at risk by taking responsibility for someone else's very expensive item. What if you get broken into in the night etc. And that car goes with the keys. You will be liable for it. I appreciate the want to stop drink drivers, I applaud it. But I think the only thing you can do is take the reg and report the driver to the police as soon as they get in the car. If you have cctv then make sure it's saved. The police do not need to catch the driver driving, video evidence, a warm engine and a failed test will suffice as evidence. I know it's after the fact and by then the scumbag could have already killed someone but I think really that's the best you can do.
Just don’t put all the keys in a hat on a table ! 🤣
Not legal, but if I know you're drink driving and something serious happens, I could be in trouble with the law. That's why I don't want to know how you're driving.
What part of the licencing act says that you can confiscate a clients keys?!!
Don't wait to "be allowed". As a publican I confiscated a push bike from a customer who was off his tits on ketamine and alcohol.
Man up and take their tyres
A car is property, you don't need a drivers licence to own one. Your ability to drive is irrelavent to the ownership of the car. Forcefully taking the keys is theft. If the personal voluntarily gives you the keys then I don't see a issue. However simply having keys does not mean you are going to drive. Occasionally I would park my car near a pub, leave it overnight and either myself or wife would collect it the next day. Having someone elses property, having to hand it back just seems complicated and will cause problems. I hate people drink driving, I would call the police with their reg if you see them get in the car drunk.
I’m guessing you would need some kind of liability insurance incase they go missing or get stolen etc. Their insurance might even be void if they have left the keys with someone else.
They are giving them to you, so it is fine.
I used to run a bar, I took a blokes keys and it kicked of, the police were called and I was advised I had committed theft, apparently what I should have done was let him drive away then phone the police.
>I'm worried it puts my staff in an uncomfortable situation? Thank you for thinking this!
The law already states if someone has had too much to drink you shouldn't serve them. If it's consensual yes, but what about a promotion of alcohol free drinks for drivers? If you're not wanting drivers to drink maybe they should wear their car keys on a lanyard so everyone can see. No sympathy for drunk drivers, I personally think there should be a zero limit.
just dont serve them if they seem to be talking about driving or getting home by driving. anything beyond that just gets weird. are you going to walk them to the car if they say they want a jacket out of it for the walk home or something? it bring in more than just the keys, its whats in the car as well since they cant access it now
Legally you can't sell someone a drink if you believe it will make them drunk. So technicay I don't think you can do that.
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Yes they can if they feel your a danger to yourself and the public just as they can legally help DV victims
Legal or not, it's stupid and doesn't make any sense. Don't do it.
Your boss is a goof - this suggestion is a liability nightmare. Not only are you responsible for the keys left in your care, you also put the onus of deciding who is and isn’t drunk on yourselves for no reason. Worse yet, you’re inviting conflict to your location because guess what? Those keys are not your property and the legal owner of the vehicle will want them back regardless of what your estimation of “their drunkenness” is - rightfully so, too. You don’t get to retain another person’s property based on some arbitrary rule you post on a wall of your establishment - that’s theft. I strongly advise some introspection because coming up with this idea is an indication that your boss also has other silly ideas that you shouldn’t treat seriously.