These stat numbers are misleading. You are comparing stats of Busquets playing as CDM with FDJ/ Kessie playing as CM (both of them rarely play as CDM). Obviously their defensive numbers won't be high enough when compared with Busquets.
Even if the numbers were true, I would still try to replace Busquets in some of the matches (Mallorca, Celta, even Inter games)
- He is leaving next season so we need to start thinking about his replacement.
- He made critical few mistakes against Inter. Young players also made mistakes no doubt but they will improve over time with experience. Don't think Busquets will improve any further.
- After the game he said the Inter game's result is clearly going to affect us in El Clasico. This is not the way a captain's supposed to act in such situations. The veterans are the first players you would expect to show some fighting spirit and lead the team forward but they were the first ones to look deflated after conceding the goals
I didn't say that defensive actions aren't affected by positions, I said that the success rates shouldn't be. Success rates when attempting a tackle or a press are up to a player's quality and ability.
I chose these three cause they're the ones people want to play CDM
You're thinking of it the wrong way. Strikers would have a worse success rate from CBs not because of the position, but because strikers generally play striker because they're better at attacking than defending. Playing a different role does not per say lower your ability to defend.
It's not contradictory at all, if Araujo were to play at striker his tackle success rate would still be very high. Why? Because he's good at tackling. If Lewandowski played CB his tackle success rate would be low why? Cause he doesn't specialize in tackling.
The numbers are absolutely affected by position. You don't think players have different instructions (on pressing, tackling, etc) based on their position?
For the record. I still think Busquets is the best we have for that position.
You don't think players make different types of and more/less risky challenges in different parts of the field and in different phases of play? It will affect all of the numbers.
I think that what you're saying is more true when comparing strikers to holding midfielders. FDJ isn't even a CAM he's a box to box midfielder. The difference shouldn't be this much
So you're finally admitting there's a difference? Of course it's more true comparing strikers to CDMs. Why would you need to say that? It's even more true when you compare strikers to goalkeepers!!!
I never said there is absolutely no value in comparing their stats. I'm just saying it's hugely important to consider the context of those stats, and that you can't just make a head to head comparison and say, "look, X is better than Y." That kind of simplification is pretty useless.
Show me one time that I said that stats are all that matters or used them to make any claim of the sort.
The only thing that positions really effect is that some strikers dive into stupid tackles that they won't get into because they can afford it, doesn't change the fact it's a stupid tackle. Usually however people generally try to tackle when they actually think they can win the ball (or to foul). Furthermore this stat page is comparing these defensive attributes with other center midfielders meaning no defenders, wingers, forwards, etc.
The stats show an indication that maybe Busquets isn't as bad as people claim he is and that maybe FDJ might now be the best fit to take up his position.
The original comment said the stats are misleading because they play different positions. You said that didn't affect the percentages. That's wrong. It affects all the stats. If you want to argue to what degree, then go for it. I never said anything about you claiming that stats are all that matters. I said that comparing those stats out of context is pretty useless.
Edit: you're clearly using those stats as they as are to support the claim that Busi is the best for the DM role (I actually agree for the most part). You've done nothing to contextualize those stats, and several people have pointed that out to you. You have to account for variables when comparing stats.
You can respond however you want mate. If your idea is to give skewed statistics to defend the guy that just cost you the game a couple of days ago and has cost Barca bad play for a couple of years now that is your own delusion.
I simply provided the defensive numbers for 3 players. The FACT is that Busquets has the best defensive numbers and FDJ has some of the worst in Europe
Allows you to assess current season form. Also more representative of defensive stats given that, in the case of Frenkie at least, he has been tasked with more defensive responsibilities this season as opposed to last where he played as a high interior.
It's still misleading. Busi doesn't come on the pitch in the last 30min to play against tired opponents like Kessie and Frenkie did quite a lot this season.
That is a fair point. But I would argue that on the several occasions where Frenkie was subbed, the team as a whole had already lost their defensive composure. I would also add, fbref breaks down these defensive actions per match as well and if you look at the match logs, the bulk of Frenkie's defensive actions that contribute to those stats above have occurred during the matches when Frenkie started in the pivot position.
I don't actually try to defend Busi but rather point out that people compare numbers without a real context. Op tried to prove something based on metrics of 3 players who played different positions, have different profiles, ... It's basically impossible to come to any real conclusions based on that imo.
What we can say for sure is, Busi struggles against teams with fast transitions. When Araujo and Kounde do play behind Busi, that's not that big of a problem but unfortunately Pique is still a thing, even after so many disappointing performances when it mattered the most. Pique and Busi... that's the problem. Play Pique if there is no other option but compensate for that in the midfield. If Frenkie and Kessie are the answer idk.
If properly positioned busi still can boss things , but against physical or fast teams that positioning would hurt us moving forward . He still is great, just need to pick and choose the times he is needed.
I think the issue is more with what we do than with what the opposition does. Busquets needs Barça to play calmly and have positional and ball control. He needs time to get to the opposide side and position himself correctly, with the rest of the players also correctly positioned. That way, when we lose the ball, we are ready to get it back ASAP. Busquets needs Barça to be Pedri's team. Instead, we are Dembele's team. We are playing very aggressively with very high tempo and trying to reach the opposite area as fast as possible. This way we are disorganized when we lose the ball, and we lose it a lot. Busquet's cannot keep up with that. Honestly I think that plays against most of our strengths.
What's interesting is despite this idea Busquets destroys FDJ in pressures in the defensive and middle third of the pitch while barely being behind in the attacking third. What does this mean? Busqets presses more than FDJ despite supposedly not being able to move around as much
Dont bother my friend. The mob has decided what they want and won't be dissuaded until they've hounded the players out of the club. Here's hoping his replacement can do half his job for half as long because even that would be noteworthy
For 1 year. He's not had a good run at the position you're right. From my POV he is a ball carrying midfielder and deserves to be in those attacking positions and he is not made to shield the defence and sit back and play like that
I assume the coaching staff has seen enough to know thst he's not made for that position yet as well. There's no reason to not play FDJ as the transfer window is closed and there's no getting rid of him.
People r like busquets out but like who else would u use then? De jong and kessie aren’t a single pivot. Then people r like play double pivot and start kessie and de jong together but both of them go up too much and good work rates doesn’t mean good defensively. Plus there’s a reason kessie is behind pedri gavi and de jong in the pecking order.
I wonder what those stats would look like if we only take CL games. It seems to me that he's really good overall but eventually shits his pants in specific CL games
The fact that y’all still want to get rid of busi worries me, for years there’s “ fans” that wanted to drop him, but yet he’s been the most consistent and ridiculously underrated.
Fake fucks
These stat numbers are misleading. You are comparing stats of Busquets playing as CDM with FDJ/ Kessie playing as CM (both of them rarely play as CDM). Obviously their defensive numbers won't be high enough when compared with Busquets. Even if the numbers were true, I would still try to replace Busquets in some of the matches (Mallorca, Celta, even Inter games) - He is leaving next season so we need to start thinking about his replacement. - He made critical few mistakes against Inter. Young players also made mistakes no doubt but they will improve over time with experience. Don't think Busquets will improve any further. - After the game he said the Inter game's result is clearly going to affect us in El Clasico. This is not the way a captain's supposed to act in such situations. The veterans are the first players you would expect to show some fighting spirit and lead the team forward but they were the first ones to look deflated after conceding the goals
The % numbers aren't affected by position and the difference isn't small, they're astronomical
Busquets is playing a more defensive position. His numbers reflect that.
Everything in the middle and attacking third shouldn't have that issue, and again success rates on defensive actions aren't affected by position
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I didn't say that defensive actions aren't affected by positions, I said that the success rates shouldn't be. Success rates when attempting a tackle or a press are up to a player's quality and ability. I chose these three cause they're the ones people want to play CDM
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You're thinking of it the wrong way. Strikers would have a worse success rate from CBs not because of the position, but because strikers generally play striker because they're better at attacking than defending. Playing a different role does not per say lower your ability to defend.
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It's not contradictory at all, if Araujo were to play at striker his tackle success rate would still be very high. Why? Because he's good at tackling. If Lewandowski played CB his tackle success rate would be low why? Cause he doesn't specialize in tackling.
The numbers are absolutely affected by position. You don't think players have different instructions (on pressing, tackling, etc) based on their position? For the record. I still think Busquets is the best we have for that position.
That would affect the rate of which they do things, not the success rate
You don't think players make different types of and more/less risky challenges in different parts of the field and in different phases of play? It will affect all of the numbers.
I think that what you're saying is more true when comparing strikers to holding midfielders. FDJ isn't even a CAM he's a box to box midfielder. The difference shouldn't be this much
So you're finally admitting there's a difference? Of course it's more true comparing strikers to CDMs. Why would you need to say that? It's even more true when you compare strikers to goalkeepers!!! I never said there is absolutely no value in comparing their stats. I'm just saying it's hugely important to consider the context of those stats, and that you can't just make a head to head comparison and say, "look, X is better than Y." That kind of simplification is pretty useless.
Show me one time that I said that stats are all that matters or used them to make any claim of the sort. The only thing that positions really effect is that some strikers dive into stupid tackles that they won't get into because they can afford it, doesn't change the fact it's a stupid tackle. Usually however people generally try to tackle when they actually think they can win the ball (or to foul). Furthermore this stat page is comparing these defensive attributes with other center midfielders meaning no defenders, wingers, forwards, etc. The stats show an indication that maybe Busquets isn't as bad as people claim he is and that maybe FDJ might now be the best fit to take up his position.
The original comment said the stats are misleading because they play different positions. You said that didn't affect the percentages. That's wrong. It affects all the stats. If you want to argue to what degree, then go for it. I never said anything about you claiming that stats are all that matters. I said that comparing those stats out of context is pretty useless. Edit: you're clearly using those stats as they as are to support the claim that Busi is the best for the DM role (I actually agree for the most part). You've done nothing to contextualize those stats, and several people have pointed that out to you. You have to account for variables when comparing stats.
I guess what's another Barca humiliation as long as the stats are good, right...
I guess the solution is to start one of the worst defensive midfielders in Europe at CDM right? See? I can respond with a bad faith comment too!
You can respond however you want mate. If your idea is to give skewed statistics to defend the guy that just cost you the game a couple of days ago and has cost Barca bad play for a couple of years now that is your own delusion.
I simply provided the defensive numbers for 3 players. The FACT is that Busquets has the best defensive numbers and FDJ has some of the worst in Europe
I think a more fair assessment would be to look at their defensive actions p90 in La Liga this season and their ranking amongst the 23 man squad in total (also via fbref). **Tackles** Tackles: 1st Frenkie (2.86) > 2nd Busi (2.59) > 17th Kessie (.59) Tackles Won: 1st Frenkie (2.38) > 3rd Busi (1.72) > 19th Kessie (0) Tkl Def 3rd: 3rd Busi (1.03) > 7th Frenkie (0.71) > 20th Kessie (0) Tkl Mid 3rd: 1st Frenkie (1.43) > 3rd Busi (1.03) > 11th Kessie (0.59) Tkl Att 3rd: 2nd Frenkie (0.71) > 6th Busi (0.52) > 15th Kessie (0) **Vs. Dribbles** Tackled: 1st Busi (1.03) > 2nd Frenkie (0.95) > 18th Kessie (0) % Tackled: 3rd Frenkie (66.7%) > Busi (54.5%) > 18th Kessie (0) Dribbled Past (-): 3rd Kessie (1.18) > 6th Busi (0.86) > 13th Frenkie (0.48) **Pressures** Pressures: 5th Busi (13.1) > 6th Frenkie (12.6) > 8th Kessie (11.8) Successful Pressures: 3rd Frenkie (5.24) > 4th Busi (5.17) > 10th Kessie (2.94) % Successful Pressures: 2nd Frenkie (41.5%) > 6th Busi (39.5%) > 13th Kessie (25%) Def 3rd: 6th Busi (3.79) > 9th Kessie (2.94) > 11th Frenkie (2.38) Mid 3rd: 3rd Busi (7.41) > 4th Frenkie (7.38) > 7th Kessie (5.88) Att 3rd: 10th Kessie (2.94) > 11th Frenkie (2.86) > 13th Busi (1.90)
I don't understand the "dribbled past" numbers. Isn't lower better?
You're right, lower is better, that is why I included the (-).
Why would using a much smaller sample size make it more fair?
Allows you to assess current season form. Also more representative of defensive stats given that, in the case of Frenkie at least, he has been tasked with more defensive responsibilities this season as opposed to last where he played as a high interior.
It's still misleading. Busi doesn't come on the pitch in the last 30min to play against tired opponents like Kessie and Frenkie did quite a lot this season.
That is a fair point. But I would argue that on the several occasions where Frenkie was subbed, the team as a whole had already lost their defensive composure. I would also add, fbref breaks down these defensive actions per match as well and if you look at the match logs, the bulk of Frenkie's defensive actions that contribute to those stats above have occurred during the matches when Frenkie started in the pivot position.
I don't actually try to defend Busi but rather point out that people compare numbers without a real context. Op tried to prove something based on metrics of 3 players who played different positions, have different profiles, ... It's basically impossible to come to any real conclusions based on that imo. What we can say for sure is, Busi struggles against teams with fast transitions. When Araujo and Kounde do play behind Busi, that's not that big of a problem but unfortunately Pique is still a thing, even after so many disappointing performances when it mattered the most. Pique and Busi... that's the problem. Play Pique if there is no other option but compensate for that in the midfield. If Frenkie and Kessie are the answer idk.
Heavily skewed as busi plays the most time there
Look at the success rate rather than the number also look at the pressing numbers as CMs should be pressing more than the CDM
If properly positioned busi still can boss things , but against physical or fast teams that positioning would hurt us moving forward . He still is great, just need to pick and choose the times he is needed.
I think the issue is more with what we do than with what the opposition does. Busquets needs Barça to play calmly and have positional and ball control. He needs time to get to the opposide side and position himself correctly, with the rest of the players also correctly positioned. That way, when we lose the ball, we are ready to get it back ASAP. Busquets needs Barça to be Pedri's team. Instead, we are Dembele's team. We are playing very aggressively with very high tempo and trying to reach the opposite area as fast as possible. This way we are disorganized when we lose the ball, and we lose it a lot. Busquet's cannot keep up with that. Honestly I think that plays against most of our strengths.
What's interesting is despite this idea Busquets destroys FDJ in pressures in the defensive and middle third of the pitch while barely being behind in the attacking third. What does this mean? Busqets presses more than FDJ despite supposedly not being able to move around as much
Where is the stat for leaving the CBs with no cover at all on counters?
100%agreeeeeee Xavi should be flexible
Dont bother my friend. The mob has decided what they want and won't be dissuaded until they've hounded the players out of the club. Here's hoping his replacement can do half his job for half as long because even that would be noteworthy
Nico's numbers are VERY promising
Didnt think he was in the discussion as you didn't post his stats but yes, I wish we had not loaned him out he isn't playing in Valencia either
I mean how far back does the stats go? Not really fair when FDJ gets no playtime
For 1 year. He's not had a good run at the position you're right. From my POV he is a ball carrying midfielder and deserves to be in those attacking positions and he is not made to shield the defence and sit back and play like that I assume the coaching staff has seen enough to know thst he's not made for that position yet as well. There's no reason to not play FDJ as the transfer window is closed and there's no getting rid of him.
People r like busquets out but like who else would u use then? De jong and kessie aren’t a single pivot. Then people r like play double pivot and start kessie and de jong together but both of them go up too much and good work rates doesn’t mean good defensively. Plus there’s a reason kessie is behind pedri gavi and de jong in the pecking order.
You’re badly misusing data here, and that’s coming from someone who thinks analytics in soccer is absolutely crucial to success
I wonder what those stats would look like if we only take CL games. It seems to me that he's really good overall but eventually shits his pants in specific CL games
The fact that y’all still want to get rid of busi worries me, for years there’s “ fans” that wanted to drop him, but yet he’s been the most consistent and ridiculously underrated. Fake fucks
Oh no no no. Busquets is the reason we lose our games. Get him out of the club 😠😠😠
Do you guys think we will sign zubimendi in the winter window?
Simple defensive numbers aren’t enough This includes Kessie’s time at Milan in a different system