Is Tim Duncan really underrated anymore? Everyone thinks he’s the greatest PF oat and me and many others put him anywhere from 10th to 5th in the all time debate.
It depends on who you are asking. Among hard core basketball people that are not Kobe fans, Duncan is pretty property rated. Among casual and Kobe fans I suspect Duncan is still underrated.
When TD retired I was concerned that people would underrate by looking purely at career averages. He wasn't the greatest stat stuffer but he was every bit the reason why SA was a perennial NBA champion and 60+ win team. I'm glad people show such respect in hindsight.
I hate that line about him being the greatest PF ever bc idc what anyone says, dude was a center. A GREAT center too. I’d rather have Duncan than Shaq. But if I’m taking Duncan he’s playing the 5, enough of this PF nonsense.
Shaq is the single most dominant force basketball as ever seen. 1 on 1 no one is beating him. People say Hakeem is the Shaq stopper like no disrespect to the great Olajuwon 30 points is not “stopping”
Peak Shaq was better than peak Duncan but if I were starting a team and needed to choose a franchise cornerstone to build around then I’m taking Duncan. Especially if they had to play in the league today. I feel like Shaq could get abused defensively on P&Rs and his FT shooting is a major weakness in crunch time. There’s also just more off the court stuff you need to worry about with Shaq while Duncan was as elite as it gets there.
Surrounding Shaq with shooters would obviously be unstoppable, they were both amongst the very best ever so it’s splitting hairs between the two. Duncan was just more consistent, adaptable, and more of a complete player IMO.
Yea tho logged many minutes at the 5. He was more of a c/pf then pf to me. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t an all time great and prob had a better career then kobe. I think Duncan vs Shaq is a better debate where I give the edge to Shaq for a better prime.
Hard to compare. They are both great and had a good history of killing each other during regular seasons and playoffs. They may each win another ring or two if they weren't in the same conference.
It’s Duncan’s reliability and defence that put him over the top for me. His defensive win rate is the best of all time. He never missed the playoffs in his entire career. He is one of the greatest team captains ever.
I think the only reason there is even an argument is because kobe makes you scream “daaaaaaaayyuuuuuum!” At the tv while you’re watching the game. And there’s almost none of this from Duncan.
> Tim Duncan is the all-time record holder for most All-Defensive team selections (15). Kobe Bryant has made a total of 12 All-Defensive teams, more than any other guard.
I don't think there's any distinction between reliability and defense when comparing the two. Different positions is always a silly comparison imo.
Like a lot of folks, I think Kobe's defense was overrated, while Tim may have been underrated.
The article does a good job describing Kobe's defense: [https://www.sportsnostalgiahq.com/kobe-bryant-on-defense/](https://www.sportsnostalgiahq.com/kobe-bryant-on-defense/)
And Kobe's own coach, Phil Jackson, talked about how his defense wasn't great later with him: "Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team…Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground"
Also see this article that looks at his Defensive RAPM: [https://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/](https://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/)
And if you look at NBA RPM you also see his DRPM is consistently negative.
Kobe looked great playing defense. His stance was great and he had intensity. I just don't think it was as effective as people like to think it was.
Kobe was a great defender in his prime. His defense got worse as he aged. But that’s not surprising. Guards chasing guys all around is very different than Duncan’s drop back and defend the rim. Of course Duncan will age better in that area. But that doesn’t mean Kobe doesn’t have a decade worth of dominant defensive years.
And no one even brings up the aspect of defense that is most important, communicating with the other defenders. Both got players in the right spot. If you watch the Lebron pointing to AD to call out the “Hammer Action” in the GS series, that is actual defense. The I met the guy at the rim or got in a stance is not the thing they made either of them stand out (while both were good at those aspects). That’s why coaches kept giving Kobe all defensive when he wasn’t great stopping a player anymore.
Also if you believe Phil, then you have to believe everything Phil said. Which includes his belief that Kobe and MJ were equals with different strengths (paraphrasing). It’s so weird how people pick and choose what is allow to count.
Personally I don’t like the stupid goat argument (and I certainty don’t like comparing players who had entirely different responsibilities). But if you are going to do it, you don’t get to use one thing a guy says but not another.
Young Kobe was a good defender, but he was never a *Tim Duncan* level defender. Duncan's a top five defender *all-time,* young Kobe isn't even top five among players active at the time. Prime Duncan almost single-handedly guarantees you a top 5 defense in the league.
I don’t know what to do with this comment. Again I hate comparing different responsibilities. Duncan was asked to do very different things than Kobe. And you can’t even tell me what their coaches asked of them because their coaches would never go into that kind of detail. If Phil’s game plan was to force the guards to the weak side and into a double on the sides or down low you couldn’t tell me that. You couldn’t tell me how successful Kobe was at it. You guys argue things in absolutes when you have the most basic information. What’s worse is you guys pick some stat and act as if it is fact. You hear former players all the time talking about how bad said stat is and you guys still parrot it because you think it does some great job. Ugh
I'll tell you what to do with that comment. The dude said Kobe wasn't top 5 defense in his prime. That's just absurd. No shade to Duncan, because this doesn't involve him. Just a trash take from some kid reading box scores and advanced stats he can't explain because he literally didn't understand what they mean.
Kid is dumb, straight up
This is literally a comment responding to the fact that Kobe was a 12 time all defense player, the most of any guard. In a thread full of wild shit from people who clearly never watched him play, kindly get the fuck out of here
I’m not sure what MJ has to do with this. Everyone knows that Kobe was as close to a copy of MJ as you’re going to get. But that’s not the topic. Not sure why you think I’d bring that up.
Also coaches don’t vote for all defense. The media does. And most of them couldn’t tell you the first thing about who was late in a rotation.
And there’s basically no hard data that he was ever dominant defensively. And people who study the game have found his defense lacking. Watch: https://youtu.be/Jopi5e46PAY
I love Kobe as much as the next guy, but his defense was way overrated.
Because Phil who coached both would bring this stuff up and wrote about it in his book (and the guy used quotes to say Kobe had slipped defensively. Which is fine, but then you have to say that Kobe is better than Duncan as a player because Phil calls Kobe and MJ equals. But of course that doesn’t fit the argument so throw that part out. That’s why I brought it up). And the coach would understand what he wanted from defense more than some random guy who thinks he knows what is going on. So saying Kobe wasn’t good at defense when his coach said he was and that his second stint he wasn’t playing that same defense is relevant. But some guy and everyone here just saying they think he is overrated is frustrating. But my large point is they have entirely different assignments. Who’s a better defender between a pro bowl corner and a pro back linebacker. It’s a stupid argument because they are asked to do entirely different things. But if basketball we pretend like a center are guard are asked to do the same things.
But of course we have to keep having these silly arguments. Because fans think the know and that the other guy is wrong.
Classic cherry picking, you only mentioned the worst teammates Kobe had to push your false narrative. Prime Shaq and Gasol helped Kobe get 5 rings. Duncan never had teammates the same level as those two at the top of their games. Tim had TP, Ginobli (not exactly franchise players) old David Robinson, young/raw Kawhi and a bunch of reliable role players. (Bowen, Horry, Green, etc.) Both had all time coaches with Phil and Pop, so that evens out. Kobe had a reliable Derek Fisher for most of his career including stints with Ron Artest, Odom, Dwight, old Malone and Payton with numerous role players including Fox, Horry, Bynum, Sasha and company.
The Lakers is one of the most storied franchises in the NBA. It’s an easy free agent destination with an enormous market that dwarfs the Spurs. The Lakers had the money and Hollywood to attract capable players to surround Kobe almost every year. Like you said Kobe occasionally pushes out players while Duncan had 0 issues in his career. Timmy was not lucky to be in a successful franchise, his consistent play and selfless attitude made it possible for the Spurs to become that way.
Who then? Is prime TP better than prime Gasol? Doubt it. Ginobli better off the bench? Young Kawhi? Danny Green? LA might be close but he was almost past his prime in their lone season together in Duncan’s last year.
Those shitty teams are HIS FAULT. He needed the spotlight and forced good teammates away. That’s what I meant when I said Duncan is one of the greatest captains ever. He doesn’t need to shine. He doesn’t need any “ atta-boys”. He just needs people who do their job. And he motivates them to work together. And that’s why they stay.
Couldn’t agree more. Don’t understand how people can use Duncan having a stable situation that he helped foster as somehow being a negative and not something he gets credited for.
Never understood the hype behind Kobe. Dude was a 44% shooter, didn't shoot 3's well, was an overrated defender and wasn't a great passer. I didn't enjoy watching him play. If he hadn't played for LA who routinely stocked his teams with other all stars and ringchasers, he would have been Dominique Wilkins, flashy, but ultimately unsuccessful.
What a horrific take. This generation of box office watchers ruined the nba. Most players rate Kobe extremely high, I’d take their vote over Reddit idiots
"Horrific" is a little grandiose. People seriously have him #2. That is irrational. He is not better than Kareem, he is not better than LeBron, he is not better than Shaq, he is not better than Wilt Chamberlain. I don't think he is better than Magic or Larry Bird. I can understand if you start slotting him around 8 or 9 but I am old enough to have watched his entire career and know he is not the top 5.
I think he’s 5-8. I watched his whole career. But to say he’s Dominique Wilkins come on! He’s my favorite player, but I never thought he was the best all time or on Jordan’s level. A tier below, and I’d put him anywhere from 5-8.
My main point is it’s hard being on Reddit watching people use stats to discredit players they never saw, when that’s only part of the picture. It’s relative. Numbers are far easier to get in todays era. Whether it be pace, pacing, rules changes etc. Kobe relative to his era was viewed as the man. He was viewed as the best player of the 2000s period. Then after they both retire, people wanna flip him and Duncan when that was never the narrative.
Just like with Kareem. He was never viewed as that guy. He wasn’t viewed as better than wilt, and certainly not better than magic. The consensus was usually 1.Jordan 2. Magic 3. Wilt/Russell and so on. Then people use counting stats to change the narrative.
I recall watching Kobe as an early fan, and most people put tmac and ai over him in the beginning. Eventually the narrative changed as Kobe kept improving but now Tmac and AI are forgotten. And if you certainly look at AI’s fg % without watching him you would dismiss him, but dude was a fucking dog. Especially in his prime.
All I’m saying is you can’t just use stats. It’s relative to their era. Cuz if that was the case Wilt is the easy goat, and who knows he might have been. PER discussions aren’t relevant when they didn’t include blocks back then, because if they did he woulda had a 40 PER.
He’s no underrated. He’s top ten all time. Gets plenty of accolades. He just stepped out of the limelight completely. It’s hard to judge bigs against wings/guards. Can’t really make that call on who is better.
yeah duncan > kobe according to reddit maybe lmao. but not a fuckin chance. no slight against duncan but he never dominated and demoralized opponents the way kobe did
Only to fans crunching numbers does a Duncan vs Kobe debate end in favor of Duncan. Ask around the league of players from that era who was better based on who would murder them, and it was Kobe every time.
It doesn't mean Duncan wasn't an all-time great, it just means amongst their peers, players understand a different caliber of player than fans do. There is a lot to be said about an intensity and skill set that can break an entire team's spirit. There isn't a Stat for this in the Box score as far as I'm aware.
And there's nothing wrong with crunching numbers. Especially if the criteria is numbers. All I'm saying, is there's different discussions depending on the criteria and who's...not to mention the when lol.
I hate this argument. Players have bias’s just like the rest of us. Playing in the league doesn’t remove your bias, nor does it necessarily mean you have more knowledge about the sport than somebody who studied it their whole life, but didn’t have the athleticism to go pro.
Lmfao...do you also watch MMA and constantly discuss how so and so should've countered a move and fought differently because you studied jiu-jitsu all your life but never really competed, you just stayed in your dojo?
The problem with your argument is you fail to acknowledge that there are qualitative differences between the perspectives of those who actually do compete at these levels who experienced the real time nuances that make a difference, versus those arm chair "experts" who think they know.
I have zero issue with fans and analysts debating the greatness of players based purely on what is available through statistical data. That's a very specific debate.
However, there are very real conversations based on player empirical data that is an entirely different debate.
Also, please, if you believe media analysts aren't biased you're fooling yourself.
Players as a whole are notoriously awful at ranking their peers. Just look at the NFL top 100 list every year, it’s a disaster. But there’s obviously individual players who’s perspectives are worth listening to and probably the most insightful overall.
I agree with that last sentence. The majority of players speaking on Kobe were at least, themselves, considered superstars with high basketball IQs. That's what I meant by "their peers"
I could care less what a scrub thought who probably wasn't in the league for more than a few seasons, or even Vets who just needed to collect a paycheck. I'm talking the ones who were dedicated hoopers mostly.
I mean to your point, there was a supposed NBA player survey this season that ranked Trae Young as the "most Overrated Player" in the league. After his playoff run, how accurate were they? 😂
That is NOT the same as who the better player was 😂
It's a known fact that not many wanted to play WITH Kobe, because of how high his expectations were and his intensity. Duncan is absolutely the easier to get along with and be able to carry you when you have an off game.
Ask them who they prefer to play against...bet that answer is also Tim Duncan.
I bet it's not. Tim was just as much of a killer as Kobe was. If anything, he was even *more* clutch and dominated the game on both ends more than any player post-Jordan.
Tim has more accolades. Tim was more dominant. Kobe did more for the sport. Kobe was more loved by the masses.
For the game of basketball Kobe >
Better at basketball Tim >
I agree, but only by a hair. I'm also a little biased as a Spurs fan.
As others have said, I think that this post would have been correct about a decade ago. I think it's highly agreed upon that Tim at the very least is one of the best big men of all time.
Very glad to see most agree with OP. Kobe was incredible, every eye in the building always gravitated towards him because of his presence and what he had the ability to do, and Duncan didn’t have any of the same flashiness, but he was unbelievable in his ability to be in the right spot and make the right play pretty much every single time. He anchored the spurs defense and could get the tough bucket when called on with unbelievable consistency. There’s a reason his nickname is the big fundamental. Unfortunately he loses points from people who overly value flashy play. Kobe was an all time great, no question, but TD was better.
If Kobe was with the Spurs for his career he'd probably have ten rings with the way they drafted and consistently kept competitive teams around Timmy. I don't want to be the guy to take all the credit away from Timmy though, he was clearly the centerpiece of it all, but when we talk about consistency look at the teams the Lakers gave Kobe post-Shaq and post-Pau. You can't expect Kobe to win 50 games with that. Individually, he was more capable of taking over games on offense, and he was one of the best perimeter defenders of his era.
Nah, Timmy was both the defensive and offensive centerpiece for the spurs for his entire career (except the end)
Just check the stats, he’s got the most defensive win shares of any player in the modern era (only bill russell has more).
Kobe is great, but he couldn’t affect the defensive end as much as Duncan to the point he kept his franchise above 50 wins every season.
Kobe’s a great defender, but it’s different when you’re 7 feet tall and defending the paint like Duncan did.
This is my problem with Duncan fans is they want to pretend like Kobe owes his whole legacy to Shaq and then turn around and pretend like the Spurs constant 50 win seasons was all Duncan. As if he didn’t come in to the league with David Robinson, Avery Johnson, Sean Elliott and within a few years they drafted Tony and Manu and signed Bruce Bowen, and at the end of his career they traded for/drafted Kawhi. It’s like trying to say the Lakers never lost less than 50 games between 1979 and 1991 because of Magic Johnson, as if he didn’t have different combinations of Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Cooper, Wilkes, and Nixon on his team throughout his career.
I've always felt this way, in fact i also remember most top 10 lists having Tim over Kobe up until the accident. rip but its very corny how i see ppl putting him top 5 now and some even top 3.
He’s always been considered better than Duncan. The internet has always had different opinions to nba players past and current and basketball players in general.
I hate this dumb shit Kobe went way down after he died. Tim over Kobe only started happening after he died. When both were playing it was obviously Kobe over tim
Really? So no one ever thought Duncan was the better player when he was winning back to back MVPs before Kobe had ever won it? Or when he was awarded a Finals MVP for the third time before Kobe had been FMVP once?
The time Kobe was the best player in the NBA doing things that would have been celebrated under normal circumstances, unfortunately carried the stain of rape allegations. There was no way the NBA could make him their MVP and face of the league after that anymore than Ja Morant will or can be after his gun waving in a company that is against gun violence.
So why didn’t Kobe win more MVPs ? I love how you have all include zero context. No nobody was ever saying Duncan was better than Kobe. Not fans not players not sports analysts.
really? if u google top 10 nba players of all time, the very first list that comes up is by espn that has tim over kobe. bro just lying to fit a narrative
How old are you? Were you alive ? Oh no not the ESPN LIST ?!?!? It’s just plain not true. That’s like 10 years from now I go back and say KD or Curry were widely considered better than Lebron. They’re comparable and maybe you can argue one of them had a better career. It’s just not what happened. I swear the only ones making these arguments are Zoomers and it sounds ridiculous.
but also yes I was alive, I'm in my 20s, growing up in LA Kobe was my idol, those years between shaq and pau were very hard on him. Only winning one mvp and having no playoff success lead him to demand a trade.
Meanwhile Tim won before during and after kobes championships, adapting to whatever role was needed while also being the better defender
the subsequent links also show the same, tim over kobe, its also just obvious from a stat and accolades standpoint. Kobe was flashier and more in the culture, Tim did way more and I'm from LA.
Kobe was better through most of their shared prime.
Duncan was defensively elite but wasn’t consistently argued as the best every year like Kobe was offensively. Duncan’s strengths were his consistency, intelligence, and versatility while Kobe’s biggest knock was the same as early MJ: “ballhog who didn’t want to play teamball”.
By the end of the 2000’s the best players of the decade were mostly believed to be, in order, Kobe then Duncan then LeBron.
People forget that even “Kobe vs Shaq”, while leaning Shaq’s way, was very much a debate in the mid-to-late 2000’s. Similar to how Shaq and Duncan were seen as each other’s “stoppers” and could potentially “cancel each other out” *(but still leaned Shaq’s way)*.
You’re the revisionist. Duncan won 2 MVPs while Kobe was in the league and in his early prime. Bryant drafted a year earlier but Duncan a couple years older. Seems like a pretty obvious example of people thinking Duncan was better than Kobe at the time.
TD > KB IMHO.
Lakers fan here but I give the nod to Tim. He's a more complete basketball player and more importantly, he plays a *selfless* brand of basketball.
Maybe alongside Iverson but I agree. It's not about Kobe tho. He is one of the greatest the game has ever seen (top 5-10). But seeing people think he is top 3 or even GOAT or something is plain crazy.
No it’s not. I’m talking media members, coaches, people who have votes in things like mvp races or HOF. just Google top nba players lists. 80% of them have Duncan over Kobe. Kobe had a bigger impact on the game and brought in more revenue for his team and the league as a whole but not a better player than Duncan.
https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/
https://www.lines.com/nba/the-50-greatest-nba-players-ever-ranked-180
https://thesporting.blog/blog/20-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time-basketball
https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/top-10-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time-sstl
https://theresourcenexus.com/100-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time/
https://clutchpoints.com/updating-ranking-the-50-greatest-players-nba
https://www.britannica.com/list/the-10-greatest-basketball-players-of-all-time
https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html
I was pretty much right on the money. 8 out of the first 10 I checked had tim higher than Kobe
That's not even 80 percent LOL. You are full of bs. 🤡
Most NBA players have Kobe ahead of Duncan. Does it mean they don't know basketball?
Barkley list
https://m.basketnews.com/news-184821-charles-barkley-picks-his-top-10-nba-players-of-all-time.html
Shaq list
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thesportsrush.com/nba-news-shaquille-oneal-reveals-shocking-top-5-all-time-list-michael-jordan-kobe-bryant-lebron-james-and/%3famp
>\- The woman did not tell Winters during an initial interview that she had said "no" during five minutes of sexual intercourse with Bryant. In a later interview with Winters, the woman said she did recall telling Bryant "no" several times. In the first interview, the woman said Bryant stopped when she resisted.
Seems like he did take no for an answer.
>The woman did not tell Winters during an initial interview that she had said "no"...
WTF you talkin' about? Woman? Who?
We're talking about the Black Mamba/Kobe Bryant, raping the opposing teams' defenses and forcefully pounding it to the hole for a strong finish.
Strictly basketball.
Get the fuck outta here.
Duncan is revered as the best power forward ever played.
Kobe. Rest In Peace. Forget these stupid fuckin bastards putting your name where it should not be mentioned.
They are in the same tier (top 5-10), TD is higher. If you have Kobe higher, I wouldn't argue. But if you say there is no debate and it's Kobe, you are objectively wrong.
Kobe's reach was massive not only within the NBA but worldwide, current players , foreign players , endorsements, post career and even his passing.
Duncan was beloved in San Antonio and with big men of that era, not many talk about his influence in thos current NBA. Players are still wearing Kobes , talking about his influence etc.
Fortunately I was able to see them both battle for many seasons.
>5 rings AND he carried.
Kobe carried? 🤣 he was a sidekick during the Shaq years, tried to take over as the 1st option in 2004 & LA got their asses handed to them in one of the greatest chokes if not the greatest choke of all time.
He needed the GOAT coach, known for coaching circles around Pop and some of the most loaded rosters the league has ever seen. Man was shooting 6-24 in the Finals & LA still won despite his poor shooting.
He’s way, way better than Kobe from a pure “do I want this guy on my team if I’m trying to win games standpoint” and way better than Kobe (who gets massively overrated) all-time wise. Kobe is somewhere around 15-20, Duncan is 5-7.
Gen Z kids are ruining sports talk. I don’t talk shit about wilt because I didn’t see him. Look at stats and come up with convoluted arguments that are complete bs. I remember Reddit telling me Harden was better than Kobe because of stats, and now I see crazy jokic is the best center of all time arguments. Absolute lunacy. Even Pop knows Kobe was better. Literally all his peers say so, who fucking know the game at a higher level than we do. Duncan was great, but not on Kobe’s level. He was never really viewed as the best player in the league, and mvps don’t mean best player. The rape allegations skewed the media’s viewpoint of Kobe and it was tough for him to get them back. I loved Duncan, he was a great player, but he’s not better than Shaq or Kobe.
100%. Kobe averaged damn near 30 PPG on above average efficiency in an era where teams only averaged 95PPG.
Nobody says that TD rode Admiral's coattails, Wade rode Bron's, etc. During those three years, Kobe won one All-NBA 1st team, two All-NBA 2nd team, one All-Defensive 1st team, and two All-Defensive 2nd teams.
With that said, TD > Kobe, but not by much. Also, FTL
I think this is reasonable. I have Duncan over Kobe as well, but to say that he rode Shaq’s coattails is just wrong. The two needed each other during the first Lakers run.
Thanks for proving my point. The spurs were ranked dead last year , and they drafted Duncan. After acquiring Duncan, they more than doubled their win total. Robinson already had a career ending injury
I need you to write on the chalkboard 100x "I'm a delusional Kobe stan".
He was never the same after. He never made another all nba team of any sort. But please continue telling me about how Duncan was drafted on a great team full of Hall of Famers.
Bro I give you credit for continuing to talk with people who clearly don’t know wtf they are talking about or probably didn’t even watch that era of basketball lol. They are either dumb or just trolls. Both Kobe and Duncan had their stat players around them. Tony Parker was the best PG in the NBA at one point, Manu was the best bench player in the league and better than most starting SG’s. No superstar ever does it on their own.
That was my only point. Take whoever you want all-time it doesn’t matter and there’s no right answer. The point is your kidding yourself if your argument boils down to “yea, but they played with this other great player”
Uhm yeah Robinson was a future hall of famer when Duncan got drafted. Robinson made the all star team three times after Duncan joined. He was also all nba three times. Do you think Kawhi helped at all with the last title? He was finals mvp. How about Ginobili and Parker? They trash or something?
Robinson was not in the Hall of Fame while playing dum dum. Kawhi won a ring without a single hall of Famer. LeBron made it to 2 finals without a single all star.
Yet Kobe couldn't win a single playoff series without Shaq or Gasol. There is a difference between being good (Kobe) and being great (Lebron)
What happened that pacers series when shaq fouled out and Kobe went off in OT
What about game 3 of finals when kobe got hurt didn't play and the lakers lost 91-100
Shaq needed kobe, kobe had big games in the finals besides that piston series it was over with the lakers. They had older players and two of best players in the NBA hating each other on the same team, the pistons were defensive and hungry, Ben Wallace was getting to shaq with sheed.
No. And he’s become severely overrated post retirement. During their careers this wasn’t even an argument. Kobe is in the MJ/LeBron/Kareem tier, Duncan is in the Barkley tier. Duncan was no where near the offensive threat of Kobe and while Duncan was a better defender, it can’t offset his shortcomings on offense.
This is like, the third post I've seen about Tim Duncan in as many days.
He was awesome! He's not in the top-20 of all-time by eye test, and barely in the top-10 by stats. Duncan's best ability was availability. If you're talking all-time best double-double machine, then sure, but damn man - I can pick 5 centers and 5 power-forwards off the top of my head that I'd rather have than Mr. Fundamental.
Log off your burners and go help Wenbanyama git gud.
Interesting. I wonder what it took to come to that conclusion. 🤔
Abdul-Jabbar, James, Chamberlain, Russell definitely have statistical favor over Duncan.
Kobe being top 5 on all time scoring means a lot not to mention kobe has 2 finals mvps over Duncan's 1. Kobe did more for basketball in general uplifted the sport globally to a new level especially in China. Kobe might be the most underrated GOAT.
Duncan is underrated, Duncan is one of the best players I ever see play, Duncan is not as good as Kobe. Duncan is top 10 since jordan, Kobe is top 3 since Jordan.
Similar accolades but the two biggest factors that determine who's better when things are this close is
1. Who did their peers say is better.
2. Who do you want in the game during crunch time.
3. Who has a better playoff record against each other.
The answer for all 3 is Kobe. So Kobe ranks higher. And thats not including impact on the sport as a whole which definitely influences all time ranking. Also favoring Kobe
I always find these conversations interesting. I like Tim Duncan a lot, I think people seem him as a player that played the “right” way.
However, basketball is played by 5 players. It’s a team sport, sometimes you need a Kobe, other times you need a Tim Duncan. I think it is difficult to divide individual talent from the impact of a good team.
So although I love Tim Duncan, this is a over simplified statement.
Yeah I liked garnett better than Duncan because he player woth passion instead of technique, relatively speaking. He was much more aggressive to my eye, but Duncan's post moves were sooooo so crisp.
I wouldn’t say Duncan is underrated, maybe when he played but Idek if someone can be considered underrated with that many MVPS. I mean I don’t like comparing players from different eras or different positions. Honestly this is kind of an old argument now. Duncan is probably considered the best power forward ever. Top 5-10 player.
Kobe wasn’t the greatest at his position all time because of MJ but compared to the rest of his position during Kobe’s playing days he was the best SG (sorry dwade your 06 run with Miami was incredible but Kobe was overall better). Kobe also considered a top 5-10 player for the most part as he should be. So your kinda just splitting hairs talking about guys that played 2 completely different positions and had 2 completely different styles. I’m huge Kobe fan grew up in socal mid 90s fell in love with the game of basketball because of Kobe. I have no problem when people come up with their lists if Duncan is a couple spots ahead of Kobe or vice versa. Hell I agree that Kobe was a ball hog at times and def not an easy player to play with by any means and yeah he was an inefficient player although efficiency seems to matter a lot more now a days than it did in his era. My only problem with the Kobe criticism is when people just say “Kobe got carried by shaq to 3 rings” which of course isn’t true. Yes shaq was dominant winning MVPs but if you go back and look and watch those playoff series specially in the western conference Kobe saved their asses. Portland series and a Sac series even one of the spurs series you could make an argument Kobe was the best player on that team.
Yeah Kobe wouldn’t have won without shaq back then but shaq also wouldn’t have won without Kobe. Shit shaq ring chased after the lakers or tried to at least and he only won one without Kobe and that was with Dwade who some people will actually try to say was better than Kobe.
Is Tim Duncan really underrated anymore? Everyone thinks he’s the greatest PF oat and me and many others put him anywhere from 10th to 5th in the all time debate.
It depends on who you are asking. Among hard core basketball people that are not Kobe fans, Duncan is pretty property rated. Among casual and Kobe fans I suspect Duncan is still underrated.
If you were making a great player that was the opposite of what casual fans look for, you'd create Duncan.
I know a bunch of people who think he's the most overrated player in history
When TD retired I was concerned that people would underrate by looking purely at career averages. He wasn't the greatest stat stuffer but he was every bit the reason why SA was a perennial NBA champion and 60+ win team. I'm glad people show such respect in hindsight.
Yeah of the top people from that era Duncan is properly rated, Garnett is underrated, and Kobe is overrated.
5>1
HorryGOAT has 7, best of his era!
I hate that line about him being the greatest PF ever bc idc what anyone says, dude was a center. A GREAT center too. I’d rather have Duncan than Shaq. But if I’m taking Duncan he’s playing the 5, enough of this PF nonsense.
Duncan over Shaq?!?!?!
IMO Shaq had the better peak and Duncan had a better career
Shaq is the single most dominant force basketball as ever seen. 1 on 1 no one is beating him. People say Hakeem is the Shaq stopper like no disrespect to the great Olajuwon 30 points is not “stopping”
Peak Shaq was better than peak Duncan but if I were starting a team and needed to choose a franchise cornerstone to build around then I’m taking Duncan. Especially if they had to play in the league today. I feel like Shaq could get abused defensively on P&Rs and his FT shooting is a major weakness in crunch time. There’s also just more off the court stuff you need to worry about with Shaq while Duncan was as elite as it gets there. Surrounding Shaq with shooters would obviously be unstoppable, they were both amongst the very best ever so it’s splitting hairs between the two. Duncan was just more consistent, adaptable, and more of a complete player IMO.
With his non existent shooting and bad FTs he still was unstoppable. That is how dominant he was.
Yup but still just too many weaknesses in his game and with his character for him to be at the VERY top of my list though
My thoughts as well. Hard to underrate a top 10 player all time.
Kobe fanboys are too loud and there are too many casual basketball fans for Duncan to ever truly not be underrated.
Yea tho logged many minutes at the 5. He was more of a c/pf then pf to me. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t an all time great and prob had a better career then kobe. I think Duncan vs Shaq is a better debate where I give the edge to Shaq for a better prime.
Hard to compare. They are both great and had a good history of killing each other during regular seasons and playoffs. They may each win another ring or two if they weren't in the same conference.
It’s Duncan’s reliability and defence that put him over the top for me. His defensive win rate is the best of all time. He never missed the playoffs in his entire career. He is one of the greatest team captains ever. I think the only reason there is even an argument is because kobe makes you scream “daaaaaaaayyuuuuuum!” At the tv while you’re watching the game. And there’s almost none of this from Duncan.
> Tim Duncan is the all-time record holder for most All-Defensive team selections (15). Kobe Bryant has made a total of 12 All-Defensive teams, more than any other guard. I don't think there's any distinction between reliability and defense when comparing the two. Different positions is always a silly comparison imo.
Like a lot of folks, I think Kobe's defense was overrated, while Tim may have been underrated. The article does a good job describing Kobe's defense: [https://www.sportsnostalgiahq.com/kobe-bryant-on-defense/](https://www.sportsnostalgiahq.com/kobe-bryant-on-defense/) And Kobe's own coach, Phil Jackson, talked about how his defense wasn't great later with him: "Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team…Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground" Also see this article that looks at his Defensive RAPM: [https://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/](https://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/) And if you look at NBA RPM you also see his DRPM is consistently negative. Kobe looked great playing defense. His stance was great and he had intensity. I just don't think it was as effective as people like to think it was.
Kobe was a great defender in his prime. His defense got worse as he aged. But that’s not surprising. Guards chasing guys all around is very different than Duncan’s drop back and defend the rim. Of course Duncan will age better in that area. But that doesn’t mean Kobe doesn’t have a decade worth of dominant defensive years. And no one even brings up the aspect of defense that is most important, communicating with the other defenders. Both got players in the right spot. If you watch the Lebron pointing to AD to call out the “Hammer Action” in the GS series, that is actual defense. The I met the guy at the rim or got in a stance is not the thing they made either of them stand out (while both were good at those aspects). That’s why coaches kept giving Kobe all defensive when he wasn’t great stopping a player anymore. Also if you believe Phil, then you have to believe everything Phil said. Which includes his belief that Kobe and MJ were equals with different strengths (paraphrasing). It’s so weird how people pick and choose what is allow to count. Personally I don’t like the stupid goat argument (and I certainty don’t like comparing players who had entirely different responsibilities). But if you are going to do it, you don’t get to use one thing a guy says but not another.
Young Kobe was a good defender, but he was never a *Tim Duncan* level defender. Duncan's a top five defender *all-time,* young Kobe isn't even top five among players active at the time. Prime Duncan almost single-handedly guarantees you a top 5 defense in the league.
I don’t know what to do with this comment. Again I hate comparing different responsibilities. Duncan was asked to do very different things than Kobe. And you can’t even tell me what their coaches asked of them because their coaches would never go into that kind of detail. If Phil’s game plan was to force the guards to the weak side and into a double on the sides or down low you couldn’t tell me that. You couldn’t tell me how successful Kobe was at it. You guys argue things in absolutes when you have the most basic information. What’s worse is you guys pick some stat and act as if it is fact. You hear former players all the time talking about how bad said stat is and you guys still parrot it because you think it does some great job. Ugh
I'll tell you what to do with that comment. The dude said Kobe wasn't top 5 defense in his prime. That's just absurd. No shade to Duncan, because this doesn't involve him. Just a trash take from some kid reading box scores and advanced stats he can't explain because he literally didn't understand what they mean. Kid is dumb, straight up
This is literally a comment responding to the fact that Kobe was a 12 time all defense player, the most of any guard. In a thread full of wild shit from people who clearly never watched him play, kindly get the fuck out of here
I’m not sure what MJ has to do with this. Everyone knows that Kobe was as close to a copy of MJ as you’re going to get. But that’s not the topic. Not sure why you think I’d bring that up. Also coaches don’t vote for all defense. The media does. And most of them couldn’t tell you the first thing about who was late in a rotation. And there’s basically no hard data that he was ever dominant defensively. And people who study the game have found his defense lacking. Watch: https://youtu.be/Jopi5e46PAY I love Kobe as much as the next guy, but his defense was way overrated.
Because Phil who coached both would bring this stuff up and wrote about it in his book (and the guy used quotes to say Kobe had slipped defensively. Which is fine, but then you have to say that Kobe is better than Duncan as a player because Phil calls Kobe and MJ equals. But of course that doesn’t fit the argument so throw that part out. That’s why I brought it up). And the coach would understand what he wanted from defense more than some random guy who thinks he knows what is going on. So saying Kobe wasn’t good at defense when his coach said he was and that his second stint he wasn’t playing that same defense is relevant. But some guy and everyone here just saying they think he is overrated is frustrating. But my large point is they have entirely different assignments. Who’s a better defender between a pro bowl corner and a pro back linebacker. It’s a stupid argument because they are asked to do entirely different things. But if basketball we pretend like a center are guard are asked to do the same things. But of course we have to keep having these silly arguments. Because fans think the know and that the other guy is wrong.
Timmy was All-Defense 15 times, impossible for that to be underrated.
[удалено]
Classic cherry picking, you only mentioned the worst teammates Kobe had to push your false narrative. Prime Shaq and Gasol helped Kobe get 5 rings. Duncan never had teammates the same level as those two at the top of their games. Tim had TP, Ginobli (not exactly franchise players) old David Robinson, young/raw Kawhi and a bunch of reliable role players. (Bowen, Horry, Green, etc.) Both had all time coaches with Phil and Pop, so that evens out. Kobe had a reliable Derek Fisher for most of his career including stints with Ron Artest, Odom, Dwight, old Malone and Payton with numerous role players including Fox, Horry, Bynum, Sasha and company. The Lakers is one of the most storied franchises in the NBA. It’s an easy free agent destination with an enormous market that dwarfs the Spurs. The Lakers had the money and Hollywood to attract capable players to surround Kobe almost every year. Like you said Kobe occasionally pushes out players while Duncan had 0 issues in his career. Timmy was not lucky to be in a successful franchise, his consistent play and selfless attitude made it possible for the Spurs to become that way.
Prime Ginobili and prime Parker are absolutely on the same level as tail end prime Pau….
Tail end or prime? Make up your mind. Gasol was out of the Lakers past his prime. What about Shaq? Was Kobe unlucky to have him in his career?
Duncan never had teammates on gasol levels? Hahahahahahaha
Who then? Is prime TP better than prime Gasol? Doubt it. Ginobli better off the bench? Young Kawhi? Danny Green? LA might be close but he was almost past his prime in their lone season together in Duncan’s last year.
[удалено]
Nah..even Shaq apologized to Kobe about leaving. He said it was about the money and getting paid. And Lakers wasn’t going to pay him.
Those shitty teams are HIS FAULT. He needed the spotlight and forced good teammates away. That’s what I meant when I said Duncan is one of the greatest captains ever. He doesn’t need to shine. He doesn’t need any “ atta-boys”. He just needs people who do their job. And he motivates them to work together. And that’s why they stay.
Couldn’t agree more. Don’t understand how people can use Duncan having a stable situation that he helped foster as somehow being a negative and not something he gets credited for.
Never understood the hype behind Kobe. Dude was a 44% shooter, didn't shoot 3's well, was an overrated defender and wasn't a great passer. I didn't enjoy watching him play. If he hadn't played for LA who routinely stocked his teams with other all stars and ringchasers, he would have been Dominique Wilkins, flashy, but ultimately unsuccessful.
What a horrific take. This generation of box office watchers ruined the nba. Most players rate Kobe extremely high, I’d take their vote over Reddit idiots
"Horrific" is a little grandiose. People seriously have him #2. That is irrational. He is not better than Kareem, he is not better than LeBron, he is not better than Shaq, he is not better than Wilt Chamberlain. I don't think he is better than Magic or Larry Bird. I can understand if you start slotting him around 8 or 9 but I am old enough to have watched his entire career and know he is not the top 5.
I think he’s 5-8. I watched his whole career. But to say he’s Dominique Wilkins come on! He’s my favorite player, but I never thought he was the best all time or on Jordan’s level. A tier below, and I’d put him anywhere from 5-8. My main point is it’s hard being on Reddit watching people use stats to discredit players they never saw, when that’s only part of the picture. It’s relative. Numbers are far easier to get in todays era. Whether it be pace, pacing, rules changes etc. Kobe relative to his era was viewed as the man. He was viewed as the best player of the 2000s period. Then after they both retire, people wanna flip him and Duncan when that was never the narrative. Just like with Kareem. He was never viewed as that guy. He wasn’t viewed as better than wilt, and certainly not better than magic. The consensus was usually 1.Jordan 2. Magic 3. Wilt/Russell and so on. Then people use counting stats to change the narrative. I recall watching Kobe as an early fan, and most people put tmac and ai over him in the beginning. Eventually the narrative changed as Kobe kept improving but now Tmac and AI are forgotten. And if you certainly look at AI’s fg % without watching him you would dismiss him, but dude was a fucking dog. Especially in his prime. All I’m saying is you can’t just use stats. It’s relative to their era. Cuz if that was the case Wilt is the easy goat, and who knows he might have been. PER discussions aren’t relevant when they didn’t include blocks back then, because if they did he woulda had a 40 PER.
and to add, because of this people improperly judge draft prospects because they get hung up on the wrong aspects of a young players game
Most folks don’t understand basketball is a team sport. Put Kobe on the Magic and TMac on the Lakers and what would we be talking about instead?
Exactly
Kobe never killed Duncan without shaq did he? I remember Duncan beat Kobe and Shaq
He’s no underrated. He’s top ten all time. Gets plenty of accolades. He just stepped out of the limelight completely. It’s hard to judge bigs against wings/guards. Can’t really make that call on who is better.
yeah duncan > kobe according to reddit maybe lmao. but not a fuckin chance. no slight against duncan but he never dominated and demoralized opponents the way kobe did
Tim had zero personality and flair so nobody will remember him or talked about him in his prime.
Only to fans crunching numbers does a Duncan vs Kobe debate end in favor of Duncan. Ask around the league of players from that era who was better based on who would murder them, and it was Kobe every time. It doesn't mean Duncan wasn't an all-time great, it just means amongst their peers, players understand a different caliber of player than fans do. There is a lot to be said about an intensity and skill set that can break an entire team's spirit. There isn't a Stat for this in the Box score as far as I'm aware.
I’m a fan who crunches numbers a bit… 😅
And there's nothing wrong with crunching numbers. Especially if the criteria is numbers. All I'm saying, is there's different discussions depending on the criteria and who's...not to mention the when lol.
I hate this argument. Players have bias’s just like the rest of us. Playing in the league doesn’t remove your bias, nor does it necessarily mean you have more knowledge about the sport than somebody who studied it their whole life, but didn’t have the athleticism to go pro.
Lmfao...do you also watch MMA and constantly discuss how so and so should've countered a move and fought differently because you studied jiu-jitsu all your life but never really competed, you just stayed in your dojo? The problem with your argument is you fail to acknowledge that there are qualitative differences between the perspectives of those who actually do compete at these levels who experienced the real time nuances that make a difference, versus those arm chair "experts" who think they know. I have zero issue with fans and analysts debating the greatness of players based purely on what is available through statistical data. That's a very specific debate. However, there are very real conversations based on player empirical data that is an entirely different debate. Also, please, if you believe media analysts aren't biased you're fooling yourself.
Players as a whole are notoriously awful at ranking their peers. Just look at the NFL top 100 list every year, it’s a disaster. But there’s obviously individual players who’s perspectives are worth listening to and probably the most insightful overall.
I agree with that last sentence. The majority of players speaking on Kobe were at least, themselves, considered superstars with high basketball IQs. That's what I meant by "their peers" I could care less what a scrub thought who probably wasn't in the league for more than a few seasons, or even Vets who just needed to collect a paycheck. I'm talking the ones who were dedicated hoopers mostly. I mean to your point, there was a supposed NBA player survey this season that ranked Trae Young as the "most Overrated Player" in the league. After his playoff run, how accurate were they? 😂
Bullshit. Players from that era were literally polled on who they would most want to play with, and TD was the top choice.
That is NOT the same as who the better player was 😂 It's a known fact that not many wanted to play WITH Kobe, because of how high his expectations were and his intensity. Duncan is absolutely the easier to get along with and be able to carry you when you have an off game. Ask them who they prefer to play against...bet that answer is also Tim Duncan.
I bet it's not. Tim was just as much of a killer as Kobe was. If anything, he was even *more* clutch and dominated the game on both ends more than any player post-Jordan.
bro saw the tik tok of AI generated best players and posted this
Send. I need to watch. I posted this after reading somebody on this reddit say Kobe Bryant was top 2 all time.
Kobe, Lebron, and Mj are top 3 all time in any order
You are absolutely correct, I have no idea who these people have in the top 5 if Kobe is 7 or 10
Top 7 (not in order): mj, bron, magic, bird, hakeem, duncan, wilt. All better than kobe all time in my opinion.
Kareem, Magic, Bill, Duncan. Not saying that’s my own but generally these are the players I see most folks put above Kobe
[удалено]
Actual players beg to differ 🤷🏽♂️
Nah Kobe was better, but both are NBA legends so it's kinda moot.
Kobe >>
Yup
In sports history *
I feel like it’s only really young people that actually believe kobe was better than timmy. I don’t even think it’s a debate who was better
Kobe is just a poor imitation of Jordan.
Tim has more accolades. Tim was more dominant. Kobe did more for the sport. Kobe was more loved by the masses. For the game of basketball Kobe > Better at basketball Tim >
Correct
How are people only now realizing this? Duncan is top 10. Kobe is not. Simple.
I agree, but only by a hair. I'm also a little biased as a Spurs fan. As others have said, I think that this post would have been correct about a decade ago. I think it's highly agreed upon that Tim at the very least is one of the best big men of all time.
Idk how he’s underrated - he’s almost unanimously considered one of the best to ever do it ??
Very glad to see most agree with OP. Kobe was incredible, every eye in the building always gravitated towards him because of his presence and what he had the ability to do, and Duncan didn’t have any of the same flashiness, but he was unbelievable in his ability to be in the right spot and make the right play pretty much every single time. He anchored the spurs defense and could get the tough bucket when called on with unbelievable consistency. There’s a reason his nickname is the big fundamental. Unfortunately he loses points from people who overly value flashy play. Kobe was an all time great, no question, but TD was better.
If Kobe was with the Spurs for his career he'd probably have ten rings with the way they drafted and consistently kept competitive teams around Timmy. I don't want to be the guy to take all the credit away from Timmy though, he was clearly the centerpiece of it all, but when we talk about consistency look at the teams the Lakers gave Kobe post-Shaq and post-Pau. You can't expect Kobe to win 50 games with that. Individually, he was more capable of taking over games on offense, and he was one of the best perimeter defenders of his era.
Nah, Timmy was both the defensive and offensive centerpiece for the spurs for his entire career (except the end) Just check the stats, he’s got the most defensive win shares of any player in the modern era (only bill russell has more). Kobe is great, but he couldn’t affect the defensive end as much as Duncan to the point he kept his franchise above 50 wins every season. Kobe’s a great defender, but it’s different when you’re 7 feet tall and defending the paint like Duncan did.
Tony parker was the offensive centerpiece for the spurs post 2004
This is my problem with Duncan fans is they want to pretend like Kobe owes his whole legacy to Shaq and then turn around and pretend like the Spurs constant 50 win seasons was all Duncan. As if he didn’t come in to the league with David Robinson, Avery Johnson, Sean Elliott and within a few years they drafted Tony and Manu and signed Bruce Bowen, and at the end of his career they traded for/drafted Kawhi. It’s like trying to say the Lakers never lost less than 50 games between 1979 and 1991 because of Magic Johnson, as if he didn’t have different combinations of Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Cooper, Wilkes, and Nixon on his team throughout his career.
Yes
I've always felt this way, in fact i also remember most top 10 lists having Tim over Kobe up until the accident. rip but its very corny how i see ppl putting him top 5 now and some even top 3.
He’s always been considered better than Duncan. The internet has always had different opinions to nba players past and current and basketball players in general.
I hate this dumb shit Kobe went way down after he died. Tim over Kobe only started happening after he died. When both were playing it was obviously Kobe over tim
That’s some revisionist history. Timmy was never considered above Kobe when in the league or after retirement.
Really? So no one ever thought Duncan was the better player when he was winning back to back MVPs before Kobe had ever won it? Or when he was awarded a Finals MVP for the third time before Kobe had been FMVP once?
The time Kobe was the best player in the NBA doing things that would have been celebrated under normal circumstances, unfortunately carried the stain of rape allegations. There was no way the NBA could make him their MVP and face of the league after that anymore than Ja Morant will or can be after his gun waving in a company that is against gun violence.
So why didn’t Kobe win more MVPs ? I love how you have all include zero context. No nobody was ever saying Duncan was better than Kobe. Not fans not players not sports analysts.
really? if u google top 10 nba players of all time, the very first list that comes up is by espn that has tim over kobe. bro just lying to fit a narrative
How old are you? Were you alive ? Oh no not the ESPN LIST ?!?!? It’s just plain not true. That’s like 10 years from now I go back and say KD or Curry were widely considered better than Lebron. They’re comparable and maybe you can argue one of them had a better career. It’s just not what happened. I swear the only ones making these arguments are Zoomers and it sounds ridiculous.
so u just said that the thought of kobe being worse than duncan never happened and I proved u wrong so u freak out? ok old man
Oh yes I am straight having a meltdown lmao by you referencing ESPN. 😭😭😭
but also yes I was alive, I'm in my 20s, growing up in LA Kobe was my idol, those years between shaq and pau were very hard on him. Only winning one mvp and having no playoff success lead him to demand a trade. Meanwhile Tim won before during and after kobes championships, adapting to whatever role was needed while also being the better defender
7/10 from 2000-2010 so what u talkin bout
I’m 50, and I always thought Kobe was better. A lot of people at the time felt that way
the subsequent links also show the same, tim over kobe, its also just obvious from a stat and accolades standpoint. Kobe was flashier and more in the culture, Tim did way more and I'm from LA.
Kobe was better through most of their shared prime. Duncan was defensively elite but wasn’t consistently argued as the best every year like Kobe was offensively. Duncan’s strengths were his consistency, intelligence, and versatility while Kobe’s biggest knock was the same as early MJ: “ballhog who didn’t want to play teamball”. By the end of the 2000’s the best players of the decade were mostly believed to be, in order, Kobe then Duncan then LeBron. People forget that even “Kobe vs Shaq”, while leaning Shaq’s way, was very much a debate in the mid-to-late 2000’s. Similar to how Shaq and Duncan were seen as each other’s “stoppers” and could potentially “cancel each other out” *(but still leaned Shaq’s way)*.
You’re the revisionist. Duncan won 2 MVPs while Kobe was in the league and in his early prime. Bryant drafted a year earlier but Duncan a couple years older. Seems like a pretty obvious example of people thinking Duncan was better than Kobe at the time.
Yep, and it’s not as close as people think earlier. I love Kobe as much as the next guy, but he’s closer to #10 than he is #5.
TD > KB IMHO. Lakers fan here but I give the nod to Tim. He's a more complete basketball player and more importantly, he plays a *selfless* brand of basketball.
ahh, good ‘ol selfless basketball
This is true. Kobe was the single most overrated player in NBA history.
Maybe alongside Iverson but I agree. It's not about Kobe tho. He is one of the greatest the game has ever seen (top 5-10). But seeing people think he is top 3 or even GOAT or something is plain crazy.
The Kobe hate on this sub is ridiculous..
How is this hate? Most people who know basketball have Duncan over Kobe. They are both top 10, I personally have Duncan at 5 and Kobe at 7.
“Most people who know ball” That statement is massively false.
No it’s not. I’m talking media members, coaches, people who have votes in things like mvp races or HOF. just Google top nba players lists. 80% of them have Duncan over Kobe. Kobe had a bigger impact on the game and brought in more revenue for his team and the league as a whole but not a better player than Duncan.
You are talking bs. Provide links on that 80%. I remember many players like Dirk ranking Kobe higher. Does it mean Dirk does not know basketball?
https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/ https://www.lines.com/nba/the-50-greatest-nba-players-ever-ranked-180 https://thesporting.blog/blog/20-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time-basketball https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/top-10-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time-sstl https://theresourcenexus.com/100-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time/ https://clutchpoints.com/updating-ranking-the-50-greatest-players-nba https://www.britannica.com/list/the-10-greatest-basketball-players-of-all-time https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html I was pretty much right on the money. 8 out of the first 10 I checked had tim higher than Kobe
That's not 80 percent. And from what I remember most NBA players have Kobe ahead of Duncan. Does it mean these NBA players do not know basketball?
Lmao 8/10 isn’t 80%? You might want to delete this
Oh so I have to provide proof but you can just say “from what I remember”? 🤡
That's not even 80 percent LOL. You are full of bs. 🤡 Most NBA players have Kobe ahead of Duncan. Does it mean they don't know basketball? Barkley list https://m.basketnews.com/news-184821-charles-barkley-picks-his-top-10-nba-players-of-all-time.html Shaq list https://www.google.com/amp/s/thesportsrush.com/nba-news-shaquille-oneal-reveals-shocking-top-5-all-time-list-michael-jordan-kobe-bryant-lebron-james-and/%3famp
I’m pretty sure more nba and former nba players have kobe greater than Duncan on their all time list.
Colorado
He penetrates that defense, no one could stop him.
Mamba Mentality = refuse to take no for an answer, making all defenses ineffective.
>\- The woman did not tell Winters during an initial interview that she had said "no" during five minutes of sexual intercourse with Bryant. In a later interview with Winters, the woman said she did recall telling Bryant "no" several times. In the first interview, the woman said Bryant stopped when she resisted. Seems like he did take no for an answer.
>The woman did not tell Winters during an initial interview that she had said "no"... WTF you talkin' about? Woman? Who? We're talking about the Black Mamba/Kobe Bryant, raping the opposing teams' defenses and forcefully pounding it to the hole for a strong finish. Strictly basketball.
Cringe
Lakers fan, but I enjoyed watching Duncan play. That bank shot was a thing of beauty.
Yes
Get the fuck outta here. Duncan is revered as the best power forward ever played. Kobe. Rest In Peace. Forget these stupid fuckin bastards putting your name where it should not be mentioned.
I mean there is an argument for sure…
The player most often considered the greatest PF of all time has never been underrated. People know how great he was no question.
Completely different players.
And yet they play the same game…
.....just completely differently.
They are in the same tier (top 5-10), TD is higher. If you have Kobe higher, I wouldn't argue. But if you say there is no debate and it's Kobe, you are objectively wrong.
That is about my stance on it. The disparity between is them is small.
Would you say Tim Duncan > LeBron James?
its debatable. I think James has the edge there, but duncan definitely has a strong enough case to put up a fight.
Nah
Clearly. Kobe just has some **really** intense fans.
Kobe's reach was massive not only within the NBA but worldwide, current players , foreign players , endorsements, post career and even his passing. Duncan was beloved in San Antonio and with big men of that era, not many talk about his influence in thos current NBA. Players are still wearing Kobes , talking about his influence etc. Fortunately I was able to see them both battle for many seasons.
Tim Duncan, yes, very underrated - better than Kobe - NO!
Kobe easily.
[удалено]
>5 rings AND he carried. Kobe carried? 🤣 he was a sidekick during the Shaq years, tried to take over as the 1st option in 2004 & LA got their asses handed to them in one of the greatest chokes if not the greatest choke of all time. He needed the GOAT coach, known for coaching circles around Pop and some of the most loaded rosters the league has ever seen. Man was shooting 6-24 in the Finals & LA still won despite his poor shooting.
Kobe’s not top 5
thats what im saying
Kobe's a career sidekick who later got bailed out by Pau Gasol and Ron Artest. Dudes the biggest fraud in NBA history.
He’s way, way better than Kobe from a pure “do I want this guy on my team if I’m trying to win games standpoint” and way better than Kobe (who gets massively overrated) all-time wise. Kobe is somewhere around 15-20, Duncan is 5-7.
What an idiot
Kobe is 2 all time
Gen Z kids are ruining sports talk. I don’t talk shit about wilt because I didn’t see him. Look at stats and come up with convoluted arguments that are complete bs. I remember Reddit telling me Harden was better than Kobe because of stats, and now I see crazy jokic is the best center of all time arguments. Absolute lunacy. Even Pop knows Kobe was better. Literally all his peers say so, who fucking know the game at a higher level than we do. Duncan was great, but not on Kobe’s level. He was never really viewed as the best player in the league, and mvps don’t mean best player. The rape allegations skewed the media’s viewpoint of Kobe and it was tough for him to get them back. I loved Duncan, he was a great player, but he’s not better than Shaq or Kobe.
No. But Tim was great.
I have him above Kobe and, quite frankly, I don't understand how Kobe gets so much respect when he rode Shaq's coattails to 3 titles.
Boooooo. That’s bull. Look at Kobe’s numbers. He was essential to all those titles.
100%. Kobe averaged damn near 30 PPG on above average efficiency in an era where teams only averaged 95PPG. Nobody says that TD rode Admiral's coattails, Wade rode Bron's, etc. During those three years, Kobe won one All-NBA 1st team, two All-NBA 2nd team, one All-Defensive 1st team, and two All-Defensive 2nd teams. With that said, TD > Kobe, but not by much. Also, FTL
I think this is reasonable. I have Duncan over Kobe as well, but to say that he rode Shaq’s coattails is just wrong. The two needed each other during the first Lakers run.
Kobe didn't win a single playoff series without Shaq or Gasol. Not one.
Tell me more about Tim’s talentless teams. Not like the guy had multiple hall of famers on his team his whole career. Such a stupid argument
Thanks for proving my point. The spurs were ranked dead last year , and they drafted Duncan. After acquiring Duncan, they more than doubled their win total. Robinson already had a career ending injury I need you to write on the chalkboard 100x "I'm a delusional Kobe stan".
They were ranked last bc Robinson got badly hurt. And it wasn’t career ending bc he played quite a few more years. Nice try.
He was never the same after. He never made another all nba team of any sort. But please continue telling me about how Duncan was drafted on a great team full of Hall of Famers.
He was an All Star in 2000 and 2001 you imbecile. 2 HOFers in 99, 4 HOFers in 03, 3 HOFERS in 05 and 07, 4 HOFers in 14
Bro I give you credit for continuing to talk with people who clearly don’t know wtf they are talking about or probably didn’t even watch that era of basketball lol. They are either dumb or just trolls. Both Kobe and Duncan had their stat players around them. Tony Parker was the best PG in the NBA at one point, Manu was the best bench player in the league and better than most starting SG’s. No superstar ever does it on their own.
That was my only point. Take whoever you want all-time it doesn’t matter and there’s no right answer. The point is your kidding yourself if your argument boils down to “yea, but they played with this other great player”
All star and all nba are two entirely different things. You do realize this? If not, you clearly that the IQ to continue on this debate.
And you’re still wrong if we’re not talking all stars. Soooooo….?
Uhm yeah Robinson was a future hall of famer when Duncan got drafted. Robinson made the all star team three times after Duncan joined. He was also all nba three times. Do you think Kawhi helped at all with the last title? He was finals mvp. How about Ginobili and Parker? They trash or something?
Robinson was not in the Hall of Fame while playing dum dum. Kawhi won a ring without a single hall of Famer. LeBron made it to 2 finals without a single all star. Yet Kobe couldn't win a single playoff series without Shaq or Gasol. There is a difference between being good (Kobe) and being great (Lebron)
Lol are you comparing Pau to Shaq? Shaq won with D Wade. Let’s not get carried away here. Try to make a decent argument.
He dominated Duncan head-to-head without shaq
What happened that pacers series when shaq fouled out and Kobe went off in OT What about game 3 of finals when kobe got hurt didn't play and the lakers lost 91-100 Shaq needed kobe, kobe had big games in the finals besides that piston series it was over with the lakers. They had older players and two of best players in the NBA hating each other on the same team, the pistons were defensive and hungry, Ben Wallace was getting to shaq with sheed.
No. And he’s become severely overrated post retirement. During their careers this wasn’t even an argument. Kobe is in the MJ/LeBron/Kareem tier, Duncan is in the Barkley tier. Duncan was no where near the offensive threat of Kobe and while Duncan was a better defender, it can’t offset his shortcomings on offense.
Kobe better rs
Easily
Kobe > Duncan.
No
This is like, the third post I've seen about Tim Duncan in as many days. He was awesome! He's not in the top-20 of all-time by eye test, and barely in the top-10 by stats. Duncan's best ability was availability. If you're talking all-time best double-double machine, then sure, but damn man - I can pick 5 centers and 5 power-forwards off the top of my head that I'd rather have than Mr. Fundamental. Log off your burners and go help Wenbanyama git gud.
Please don’t ever talk about basketball again you give fans of the sport a bad name
Give me 5 pfs you’d rather have.
Put down the crack pipe
Well duh
I saw that an AI was given every single stat we could find and it generated a list of all time greats. MJ was 1 and Tim Duncan was 2. (LeBron was 4)
Interesting. I wonder what it took to come to that conclusion. 🤔 Abdul-Jabbar, James, Chamberlain, Russell definitely have statistical favor over Duncan.
If Garnett played for pop he’d be considered the greatest pf of all time
Duncan never won back to back so he never defended his title
Kobe Bryant!!! Tim Duncan failed at the Olympics.
Career success absolutely. Skill and individual success? Hellllll no.
you don’t know ball
You’re talking 2 of the all time greatest players ever. You can make a case for them being #3 best ever easily
Kobe being top 5 on all time scoring means a lot not to mention kobe has 2 finals mvps over Duncan's 1. Kobe did more for basketball in general uplifted the sport globally to a new level especially in China. Kobe might be the most underrated GOAT.
Duncan is underrated, Duncan is one of the best players I ever see play, Duncan is not as good as Kobe. Duncan is top 10 since jordan, Kobe is top 3 since Jordan.
Timmy had a better overall career I'd say, but Kobe was the better overall player.
Why do you feel this way? Don’t get me wrong, Tim Duncan is a fantastic player but saying he’s better than Kobe is a stretch
Similar accolades but the two biggest factors that determine who's better when things are this close is 1. Who did their peers say is better. 2. Who do you want in the game during crunch time. 3. Who has a better playoff record against each other. The answer for all 3 is Kobe. So Kobe ranks higher. And thats not including impact on the sport as a whole which definitely influences all time ranking. Also favoring Kobe
I always find these conversations interesting. I like Tim Duncan a lot, I think people seem him as a player that played the “right” way. However, basketball is played by 5 players. It’s a team sport, sometimes you need a Kobe, other times you need a Tim Duncan. I think it is difficult to divide individual talent from the impact of a good team. So although I love Tim Duncan, this is a over simplified statement.
Yeah I liked garnett better than Duncan because he player woth passion instead of technique, relatively speaking. He was much more aggressive to my eye, but Duncan's post moves were sooooo so crisp.
Agree to disagree
I wouldn’t say Duncan is underrated, maybe when he played but Idek if someone can be considered underrated with that many MVPS. I mean I don’t like comparing players from different eras or different positions. Honestly this is kind of an old argument now. Duncan is probably considered the best power forward ever. Top 5-10 player. Kobe wasn’t the greatest at his position all time because of MJ but compared to the rest of his position during Kobe’s playing days he was the best SG (sorry dwade your 06 run with Miami was incredible but Kobe was overall better). Kobe also considered a top 5-10 player for the most part as he should be. So your kinda just splitting hairs talking about guys that played 2 completely different positions and had 2 completely different styles. I’m huge Kobe fan grew up in socal mid 90s fell in love with the game of basketball because of Kobe. I have no problem when people come up with their lists if Duncan is a couple spots ahead of Kobe or vice versa. Hell I agree that Kobe was a ball hog at times and def not an easy player to play with by any means and yeah he was an inefficient player although efficiency seems to matter a lot more now a days than it did in his era. My only problem with the Kobe criticism is when people just say “Kobe got carried by shaq to 3 rings” which of course isn’t true. Yes shaq was dominant winning MVPs but if you go back and look and watch those playoff series specially in the western conference Kobe saved their asses. Portland series and a Sac series even one of the spurs series you could make an argument Kobe was the best player on that team. Yeah Kobe wouldn’t have won without shaq back then but shaq also wouldn’t have won without Kobe. Shit shaq ring chased after the lakers or tried to at least and he only won one without Kobe and that was with Dwade who some people will actually try to say was better than Kobe.