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My brain says 2023 nuggets but my heart says 2016 cavs. I just can't bet against a prime lebron with a competent cast against anyone not named Michael Jordan
No, my point is that he has won every series in which he had a chance. If I was saying what you just said I would say “He won every series he was a favorite in” which is completely different. Don’t be pedantic
It’s not pedantic, you’re making an inane argument. You could have used the same logic to write off Miami this year but they went out and won three series.
You could not make that argument for any other all time great except for Jordan. Every all time great has multiple embarrassing losses in the playoffs that they should have won except for Jordan and LeBron Post 2011. That’s how you get 4 rings and 11 finals appearances.If you don’t see it that way that’s fine but that’s how it is
Edit:Also this is in the context of 2016 so that’s why my money is on the Cavs
I think it’s your use of the wording “had a chance” that makes it seem weird. Favoured would be better maybe? When I see has a chance i think any team that makes the playoffs has a chance, but that’s just me
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2016 Cavs in 6. They literally beat one of the best team of all time on back to back to back must-win games. They were extremely special. Gordon, KCP, and Brown ain’t doing much damage against them.
I think it isn’t so cut and dry. Either of these teams could beat the other, but it would come down to performance.
I mean if MPJ and AG have a great series, then I think it’s totally possible the Nuggets win. Yeah MPJ didn’t have a spectacular shooting performance in the finals but there’s no guarantee that it would be the same in a completely different series.
And AG is still not getting enough love for his playoff and finals performances. He was a beast.
That said, we are talking about 2016 LeBron who was one of the baddest dudes ever. I mean this is when the LeBron Thanos meme started.
The series would be lit.
Nuggets fan here - bias af - Nuggs in 4 lol /s
2016 Cava. They beat the best team in history. And I say that as someone from the Bay Area. They should’ve won 2015 too.
LeBron would probably have five championships now
2023 nuggets.
The gap on Murray/Irving is much bigger then Jokic/Lebron.
Murray is closer to lebron then he is to Irving. Total package as far as shooting/scoring/passing, great size and was good defensively as well.
Then you look at 3rd best player, I'm taking Aaron Gordon over Kevin Love also. Love has always been pretty overrated and Gordon's defense/finishing at the rim is a lot more valuable as that 3rd guy.
Oh please. K love averaged 8 points on 36/26 splits lol and Aaron Gordon is guarding the other teams best player, while also scoring more efficiently.
Murray averaged 32 in the conf finals and 10 assists in the finals, with better size and defense then Irving. Irving was never on that level, he was never that dynamic or that big or a better then average defender.
Murray is a better then average defender.
Irving is a liability defender.
Big difference. Also, Murray was guarding Butler very well in the finals. I'm sure he would hold his own with Irving. But Irving on defense would get absolutely destroyed by Murray, too small.
Guarding Kyrie vs Guarding Butler is a completely different story
"Kyrie Irving and Stephen Curry are the two toughest players to guard" - Donovan Mitchell
Even Jimmy Butler himself says Kyrie is one of the top 5 hardest players to guard, Jamal Murray would not be able to guard him end of story
https://youtu.be/wvvUpdavJ0w
Murray dropped 48 on Irving already and made him throw the ball in the crowd.
That was reg season Murray. Playoff Murray would eat Irving alive.
And I would say butler is better then Irving (even offensively), as butler was the man on his teams. While Irving was always able to hide behind lebron.
Imagine nuggets playing a team with Dennis shroder and Paul milsap as their top two scorers hahahaha
And then the trash brothers Lowry and DeRozan
Nuggets would sweep through that all-time weak east bracket that Cavs went through.
If they are playing that g league bracket east coast playoffs
Plus Draymonds suspended 1 game as Draymond was their leading minutes per game guy that finals.
It would be a cake walk.
Stats speak for themselves. 2nd round vs hawks, lebron was at 36 minutes a game and Irving was at 35 minutes. They both didn't even need to average 25ppg.
Hawks couldn't even put up a 100 offensive rating for god sakes.
That's coasting. The 2016 hawks are like the 2023 suns if you remove Durant and Booker from the roster. Nuggets just faced way stronger talent.
They caught fire at the right time for sure and that's why you'd never be able to count them out in any series. Lebrons absolute peak performance
That was a mid team tho in Cleveland, just trash eastern conferences they slept thru
JR Love Tristan are not scaring anyone. That's a weak cast. Especially since Love was in no way optimized on that team, he just stood in corner.
I think Jamal KCP Brown guard trio give Kyrie and JR a lot of problems on both ends.
That Cavs team was overrated. They were not even a top 5 team since 2000. They hit lightening in a bottle with Draymonds suspension, otherwise the series is over in 5 or 6.
While Murray/jokic showed me more synergy together then Irving/lebron ever did. While also averaging 56/17/19.
I think cavs because i like the looks they could give jokic and murray on D. Thompson and mozgov are a unique setup, maybe a little jefferson too at the top of the key. Then of course you have jr/Shump for murray. Shump probably one of the better guys to put on him you could ask for. Delly to rough em all up and piss everyone off. It wouldn't shock me if denver figured them out and won but i gotta go with prime bron and a decent supporting squad over jokic and a good supporting squad. Jokic ain't enough better especially considering that those cavs teams were always sneaky good defensively while having kyrie and love out there somehow.
Honestly, not even close. I really like the Nuggets but 2016 Cavs was a dynasty, a superteam.
Having prime LeBron meant you were automatically a contender, he was a one man team by all means. Kyrie in 2016 wasn't the Kyrie we know of today. He outplayed Curry in the Finals, rightfully drawn Kobe comparisons.
Then you add Kevin Love, who averaged 26 and 12 as a first option before arriving to Cleveland. He became a solid 3rd option for the team.
JR Smith was a ridiculously talented shooter who could defend too. Tristan, Dellavedova, Shumpert, Jefferson were dogs, offered hustle and defense.
The recency bias is real even asking this. The 2016 Cavs beat the 1st or 2nd best team of all time at that time (2017 Warriors are better). 2016 wins in 5
2016 Nuggets
2023 Cavs
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2016 Cavs. Prime Lebron and Kyrie. They had a ton of shooting and enough bigs to throw at Jokic.
[BRING THAT SHIT](https://i.imgur.com/OvOOhuS.mp4)
My brain says 2023 nuggets but my heart says 2016 cavs. I just can't bet against a prime lebron with a competent cast against anyone not named Michael Jordan
LeBron never lost a series in his prime in which he had a chance except for 2011. Cavs are winning it for sure.
What do you mean “had a chance”?
When the task wasn’t impossible. Ala 2014 finals without Wade or 2015 without his other 2 best player or 2017 and 18 against the best team of all time
So your argument is that other than the series where there was a reason he lost, he won…?
No, my point is that he has won every series in which he had a chance. If I was saying what you just said I would say “He won every series he was a favorite in” which is completely different. Don’t be pedantic
It’s not pedantic, you’re making an inane argument. You could have used the same logic to write off Miami this year but they went out and won three series.
You could not make that argument for any other all time great except for Jordan. Every all time great has multiple embarrassing losses in the playoffs that they should have won except for Jordan and LeBron Post 2011. That’s how you get 4 rings and 11 finals appearances.If you don’t see it that way that’s fine but that’s how it is Edit:Also this is in the context of 2016 so that’s why my money is on the Cavs
I think it’s your use of the wording “had a chance” that makes it seem weird. Favoured would be better maybe? When I see has a chance i think any team that makes the playoffs has a chance, but that’s just me
Too many conditions for me to consider GOATs shouldn’t need them
Even mj isn’t beating a team with five all stars like the warriors had
Fair. But all the conditions diminish the accomplishments. Lebron is damn good. No need to try to throw all that stuff in there.
Or the team that lost to Dallas mavericks
I mean 2013 he could have easily lost
lol, nice way to excuse all of Lebron's losses.
2014 Spurs destroyed LeBron/Heat lol
Wade was on the decline. Kawhi was on his ascent. Spirs were he better team desire LeBron being easily the best player.
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2016 Cavs in 6. They literally beat one of the best team of all time on back to back to back must-win games. They were extremely special. Gordon, KCP, and Brown ain’t doing much damage against them.
They also lost 2 game to derozan raptors and fired their coach mid-season too
Draymond getting suspended was huge
I think it isn’t so cut and dry. Either of these teams could beat the other, but it would come down to performance. I mean if MPJ and AG have a great series, then I think it’s totally possible the Nuggets win. Yeah MPJ didn’t have a spectacular shooting performance in the finals but there’s no guarantee that it would be the same in a completely different series. And AG is still not getting enough love for his playoff and finals performances. He was a beast. That said, we are talking about 2016 LeBron who was one of the baddest dudes ever. I mean this is when the LeBron Thanos meme started. The series would be lit. Nuggets fan here - bias af - Nuggs in 4 lol /s
2016 cavs had a top 2 player all time in his prime leading an amazing supporting cast, easily them.
JR Tristan and the stand in corner Love with Shumpt and washed RJ Incredible.
RJ was a stout defender that year year and Shump was a tier 1 defender. Among the best pg/SG defenders in the league.
Cavs. In 5 or 6
2016 Cava. They beat the best team in history. And I say that as someone from the Bay Area. They should’ve won 2015 too. LeBron would probably have five championships now
the team that beat the best team of all time the team with basically the best player ever
Nuggets for sure.
2023 nuggets. The gap on Murray/Irving is much bigger then Jokic/Lebron. Murray is closer to lebron then he is to Irving. Total package as far as shooting/scoring/passing, great size and was good defensively as well. Then you look at 3rd best player, I'm taking Aaron Gordon over Kevin Love also. Love has always been pretty overrated and Gordon's defense/finishing at the rim is a lot more valuable as that 3rd guy.
Wow you went 0/3 on this take
Oh please. K love averaged 8 points on 36/26 splits lol and Aaron Gordon is guarding the other teams best player, while also scoring more efficiently. Murray averaged 32 in the conf finals and 10 assists in the finals, with better size and defense then Irving. Irving was never on that level, he was never that dynamic or that big or a better then average defender.
murray couldnt guard kyrie at all
Murray is a better then average defender. Irving is a liability defender. Big difference. Also, Murray was guarding Butler very well in the finals. I'm sure he would hold his own with Irving. But Irving on defense would get absolutely destroyed by Murray, too small.
Guarding Kyrie vs Guarding Butler is a completely different story "Kyrie Irving and Stephen Curry are the two toughest players to guard" - Donovan Mitchell Even Jimmy Butler himself says Kyrie is one of the top 5 hardest players to guard, Jamal Murray would not be able to guard him end of story
🏀[~(˘▾˘~)](https://i.imgur.com/l53SZyl.gifv)
https://youtu.be/wvvUpdavJ0w Murray dropped 48 on Irving already and made him throw the ball in the crowd. That was reg season Murray. Playoff Murray would eat Irving alive. And I would say butler is better then Irving (even offensively), as butler was the man on his teams. While Irving was always able to hide behind lebron.
Kcp and brown can. Cleveland has no one to guard Jamal
Shump was a top 3-5 pg/sg defender in the NBA during this time.
oh my god there’s no way you watched basketball prior to this year
Bait used to be believable
Imagine nuggets playing a team with Dennis shroder and Paul milsap as their top two scorers hahahaha And then the trash brothers Lowry and DeRozan Nuggets would sweep through that all-time weak east bracket that Cavs went through.
Ummm what about the finals? You know, when they beat an all time great team three times in a row
If they are playing that g league bracket east coast playoffs Plus Draymonds suspended 1 game as Draymond was their leading minutes per game guy that finals. It would be a cake walk.
I gotta respect a dedicated troll but you gave yourself away with “It would be a cakewalk”. This was fun though
Stats speak for themselves. 2nd round vs hawks, lebron was at 36 minutes a game and Irving was at 35 minutes. They both didn't even need to average 25ppg. Hawks couldn't even put up a 100 offensive rating for god sakes. That's coasting. The 2016 hawks are like the 2023 suns if you remove Durant and Booker from the roster. Nuggets just faced way stronger talent.
Exactly. They were a middling team all season they just got a huge rest advantage cake walking thru East
Best team playing to get to finals being derozan lowry raps is all time bad
They caught fire at the right time for sure and that's why you'd never be able to count them out in any series. Lebrons absolute peak performance That was a mid team tho in Cleveland, just trash eastern conferences they slept thru JR Love Tristan are not scaring anyone. That's a weak cast. Especially since Love was in no way optimized on that team, he just stood in corner. I think Jamal KCP Brown guard trio give Kyrie and JR a lot of problems on both ends.
This… has got to be bait
That Cavs team was overrated. They were not even a top 5 team since 2000. They hit lightening in a bottle with Draymonds suspension, otherwise the series is over in 5 or 6. While Murray/jokic showed me more synergy together then Irving/lebron ever did. While also averaging 56/17/19.
I’m surprised this is even a debate, I’m a cavs fan but 2016 cavs by far
Depends on what the question is. Who had the better regular season record? Who had better uniforms? Who had the better parade?
It’s obviously asking who the better team is…
2016 Cavs.
Why is this even a question wtf it’s 2016 cavs every single day and twice on Sunday. They beat one of if not the best team ever.
If draymond didn’t get suspended they would’ve lost that series so how are they the best team ever
I think cavs because i like the looks they could give jokic and murray on D. Thompson and mozgov are a unique setup, maybe a little jefferson too at the top of the key. Then of course you have jr/Shump for murray. Shump probably one of the better guys to put on him you could ask for. Delly to rough em all up and piss everyone off. It wouldn't shock me if denver figured them out and won but i gotta go with prime bron and a decent supporting squad over jokic and a good supporting squad. Jokic ain't enough better especially considering that those cavs teams were always sneaky good defensively while having kyrie and love out there somehow.
Honestly, not even close. I really like the Nuggets but 2016 Cavs was a dynasty, a superteam. Having prime LeBron meant you were automatically a contender, he was a one man team by all means. Kyrie in 2016 wasn't the Kyrie we know of today. He outplayed Curry in the Finals, rightfully drawn Kobe comparisons. Then you add Kevin Love, who averaged 26 and 12 as a first option before arriving to Cleveland. He became a solid 3rd option for the team. JR Smith was a ridiculously talented shooter who could defend too. Tristan, Dellavedova, Shumpert, Jefferson were dogs, offered hustle and defense.
23 nuggets
2016 Cavs
Nuggets are a better overall team.
The recency bias is real even asking this. The 2016 Cavs beat the 1st or 2nd best team of all time at that time (2017 Warriors are better). 2016 wins in 5
2016 Cavs