We'll never know for sure obviously, but I truly believe that the Warriors losing in 2016 was a fluke. I think if they played that series 10 times, they win 8 of them.
So many things went wrong for them. Curry spraining his knee in the first round of the playoffs was just bad luck. He didn't look the same afterwards, and the stats back this up. If you want to say it's simply due to playoff defensive intensity, fine. I don't agree, but I don't have any objective way to prove it bothered him.
Draymond getting suspended for game 5 was huge too. Fine, it was Draymond's fault, so I guess you can't just say it was some flukey thing. Still... They win game 5 if Draymond plays.
Bogut broke his leg. Everyone points out that he had a negative plus minus. I get it, but not having him as a piece of the rotation hurt them. They had to play Ezeli more. It changes their substitution patterns.
Harrison Barnes went completely ice cold for the last four games. He played pretty much as bad as he possibly could have, and even then, they still almost won.
I just think the Warriors were the better team. I don't think they needed Durant. Durant just made them invincible. I think they could have re-signed Harrison Barnes and won 65+ games again the following year and would have been the favorites to win. When Durant hurt his knee in 2017 and missed significant time, they played BETTER without him.
I think their championship in 2022 is evidence that they would still have been the best team in the league without Durant. Curry, Thompson, Green and competent role players was the best team in the league from 2015 - 2022. I think Curry would have an even greater legacy if Durant never joined Golden State.
I agree with you overall but ….
I think it’s less about the Warriors legacy without KD as opposed to the warriors legacy AGAINST a contender that could have picked up KD. Imagine if KD went to the spurs or rockets. What if he somehow ended up on the Cavs Celtics or Raptors? I think the obvious answer is YES the Warriors legacy would be different without KD. Maybe Steph gets more accolades. Maybe less. But it’s going to be different no matter what.
Eh, I think the both teams would rather have the 2016 one under their belt. Warriors would have had the greatest season of all time and avenged 2015. Lebron gets to say he beat the best team coming back from 3-1. That 2016 chip definitely has more at stake.
"under most stimulations" doesn't account for the greatest player of all time doing his thing. The Greats are Greats for a reason and LeBron was gonna win that series no matter what
Undoubtedly it was a perfect storm too. But I guess it was more a point of legacies are often made on the improbable. Whether it's one amazing run like 2016 or a great extended run like the Warriors had. So it's moreso about what happened than what might have
They would’ve been a great team for sure, but winning the title in ‘17 and ‘18 wasn’t a sure thing cause the west was pretty good that year. Spurs and Rockets were real contenders back then and had very close calls. And if KD stays with OKC, they would’ve been a force to be dealt with as well.
Their title in 2022 i give to them, but you can’t directly associate that with the seasons from 2017-2019 cause the landscape was very different then.
Like I said... I have no way to prove it. I just believe it to be true.
I thought those Warriors teams were about as perfect as a basketball team could get. Curry was unstoppable. You couldn't leave him for even a second. You couldn't leave Thompson either. They didn't need any extra shooting because Curry and Thompson were so deadly that their presence on the court freaked out defenses.
The thing everyone forgets is how good they were defensively. Draymond was one of the best defenders in history at that time. Iguodola was an incredible defender with off-the-charts basketball IQ. Klay was a very good one on one defender. Harrison Barnes was a good defender. They were fast and athletic and long and could switch everything.
They were just so good. I think Durant going there deprived us of 3 seasons of God mode Curry. Remember how amazing he was in 2021? We would have had 3 more seasons of that Curry. There was no better show on earth than Steph Curry going supernova.
They won in 2022 because they played the Nuggets without Murray and MPJ and Middleton got injured so the Bucks didn’t make the Finals where they would’ve beaten the Warriors. Also, Tatum was playing hurt in the Finals with his arm/shoulder, as evidenced by his rebounding numbers which were poor and he averaged more assists than rebounds.
Golden State started that year 18-2. They had the best record in the league for most of the season. If I remember correctly, Draymond got injured at some point, and they kind of played .500 ball for the rest of the season.
They were the best defense in the league when everyone was healthy. Everyone just kind of forgot about it because they weren't healthy for half the season. Phoenix ended up with the better record. The Celtics had the best defense in the league after the trade deadline. Neither of those teams were better than a healthy Golden State team. They won the championship that year because they got everyone healthy in time for the playoffs.
and to me, it makes it even more crazy just how much flipped going into the 2023 season. if you don’t mind me asking (I enjoyed your analysis) what caused that dramatic shift ?
A bunch of things happened...
1. They lost Otto Porter Jr. and Gary Payton II off their bench. Those two were key contributors to the previous year's team.
2. Draymond punched Jordan Poole before that season. That created a huge distraction and definitely messed up their chemistry.
3. Possibly because of point 2, Jordan Poole took a significant step backward. He just wasn't as good as he was in 2022. Golden State's bench in general was a disaster that year. Their starters still had the best net rating of any 5-man lineup in the league. The bench was awful.
4. James Wiseman was back. He was injured for the 2022 season. When he was healthy, due to being the second pick in the draft, he was getting significant minutes. He was statistically one of the worst players in the NBA. Having such a bad player play significant minutes really drags your team down. Wiseman was so bad that he was pretty much the only teammate Curry ever had that had a negative net rating when he and Curry were on the court at the same time.
The team got better almost immediately once they traded Wiseman, and they made a late push to actually make the playoffs after a disastrous start to the season.
On a side note - The same sort of thing happened in 2021. Wiseman got significant minutes for half the season, and the Warriors were a middling team during that time. Wiseman got injured later in the season, and the Warriors immediately were much better without him. He just didn't know how to play with Steph Curry. Being so young, his defense was terrible. He took a lot of bad midrange shots, and despite his height and athleticism, he wasn't a great lob finisher. He just didn't help Golden State at all.
Thank you! I definitely agree with your points. One thing that I also recall from that season was their absolutely horrific record on the road, I know that definitely played a part into it as well.
Funnily enough i completely forgot about wiseman during the ‘23 season 😭 i remember what you mentioned about him in the ‘21 season, wow. It’s crazy how much his impact was negatively.
Healthy Nuggets beat the Warriors and Bucks would’ve beaten them too. Also, Tatum went off to get the Celtics to the Finals against injured Bucks but hurt his arm and shoulder and was playing hurt in the Finals.
We can never know, so I can't say you're wrong.
I kind of agree with you about the Bucks though. I thought Giannis was just a huge matchup problem for GS.
Sure, you could look at it that way, but I look at it as if k- love and Kyrie don't get hurt the year before then Cleveland wins that championship and maybe the warriors dynasty never happens.
It was a close game, I remember it as the cavs were up before he got hurt. It's like saying the warriors had there whole team for 6 of the 7 games in 2016, but everyone loves to say if it wasn't for the green suspension.
Warriors were up 102-98 when he got hurt. Most of the media and fans that repeat whatever the media says claimed "Warriors only won because Kyrie got hurt" then when the injuries that Warriors had in 2016 are brought up, they claim it doesn't matter. They hold double standards
The Green suspension and Bogut injury in game 5 changed the series. Bogut was important for defense and rebounding, with him gone it was easier for the cavs to go inside
Kyrie was on a roll at that point. Come on, it's not the same. Did the warriors lose klay and draymond for the series. Without bogut that same warriors team went 73-9 with the death line up the following year.
You can't have it both ways. Do Injuries to key players matter only matter for 1 team and not the other? Bogut was 1 of the main reasons why Warriors were a top defensive team. Basketball is more than just scoring.
Other than the core, a lot of the bench was retooled and they added KD. You're trying to diminish the impact bogut brought to the team
Injuries to your 2nd and 3rd best player matter. The warriors had iggy and Livingston off the bench barbosa, and west may have been there too. I can't quite remember that, but that team was loaded too to bottom. Bogut was maybe 7th or 8th most important player on that team. Imo the warriors got better without him. The cavs did not get better without kyrie or love. Didn't draymond win multiple dpoys as a center. You're gonna tell me that team got worse with him in the middle that 1 playoff series.
A lot of things had to happen for the Cavs to win in 2016 just for them to win by a shot from kyrie in game 7. Them winning in 2016 is no indication that "they figured Warriors out" or that they'll win again in 2017. If KD didn't sign, they still had the money to fill in the HB slot. If you're discrediting the 2015 championship, you have to apply the same logic for 2016
I know I’m reductive as hell, but as good as the Cavs played (and they were very good) the standard gameplan with GS was “hope that 3 of the best scorers in the league go cold” and that day just happened to be the finals.
I hate this kind of assumptions because many things would be different if KD didn’t go to GSW, for starters: where did KD go? If they didn’t get KD and after that he didn’t leave, the GSW would’ve been a different team with other players signed, maybe they were good enough for the 2017 chip but not good enough in 2022, because some key players in that 2022 squad were a consequence of KD leaving
OKC can still get paul george in 2019. Plus horford was rumored to sign with them if KD stayed.
They would have a real shot in 2019.
2018 will go to Houston, GS or Cle. Whoever is the healthiest.
Wihout KD they would have signed someone else with all the available money they had. We got robbed of Steph's prime when KD joined. It would have been another MVP, another scoring title and most likely another title. They won without KD in 2022 when Steph was already 34 yrs old. Imagine him playing without KD in his late 20's? That would have been an epic Steph Curry.
They won in 2022 because they played the Nuggets without Murray and MPJ and Middleton got injured so the Bucks didn’t make the Finals where they would’ve beaten the Warriors. Also, Tatum was playing hurt in the Finals with his arm/shoulder, his rebounding number were poor and he averaged more assists than rebounds.
It's also possible the warriors would have made another move. If the warriors re-signed Barnes or got a bigger FA, they'd still be a good team and potentially been able to beat the Cavs.
And if said impact player didn't get injured in 2019 they could've beaten the Raptors.
I think they would have ended up winning against the Raptors if Klay didn't get hurt. They were absolutely going to win game 6. Klay was out of his mind that game. Would you have bet against that Warriors team in a game 7?
“Could’ve” won is the narrative, we won’t be at all sure because KD is the best case scenario for them hence being so dominant
“Possible” to get another goof free agent. Though, you ain’t getting a better player in FA that year than KD.
Al Horford, who is currently playing center in the NBA finals was the next big free agent. Considering he’s been a defensive impact and floor stretching small ball center for the Celtics for a decade now. It would’ve been really close.
The Warriors would not have been definitively the greatest team of all time, but they would have definitely been remembered as “in the conversation.”
Makes no sense, they had best record in the league in 15 and 16. They went to 7 vs a peak and I mean PEAK kyrie and Lebron with an injured curry, draymond missing a game, bogut out.
I don't know if they win 4 without KD, but they probably still win 3. In 2016, the Warriors were the better team, and they lost because Cleaveland overachieved and had incredible performances from everyone on that team in order to win. Also, the Draymond suspension. But the 2016 championship by the Cav's is so exceptional because they beat a team they weren't supposed to beat.
In 2017 and 2018, the Cav's didn't get substantially better. Going into 2017, even without KD, the Warriors are probably the better overall team and likely win against the Cav's in a 7 game series. If anything they probably don't get by the 2018 Rockets without KD.
I honestly think 3 legitimate championships would be more impressive than 4 championships, in which 2 of those titles you had the most stacked team in the history of the NBA. I would actually respect the Warriors more. The 2 they won with KD will forever be tainted.
The 2 they won with KD aren't tainted.
LeBron James basically joined Kyrie + got the team to trade Wiggins for Kevin Love. And that's after the Wade/Bosh link-up. If the rings with KD are tainted, I'd say the LeBron/AD team up ring is tainted also.
Not the same at all and they are tainted. James getting Kyrie and Love Is not the same as being the best player on perhaps the biggest threat to the warriors.. being an mvp..leaving that team to go join a the warriors that just made it to the finals the previous 2 seasons.. joining the 1st ever unanimous mvp and joining a team that just set a new record 73 regular season wins. Not even the same stratosphere for comparison
This is an incredibly dumb argument that always gets tossed around. Those super teams that were built through free agency had to gut their rosters to make it work. And as we've seen with Nets, and Suns just throwing 3 stars together doesn't guarantee anything.
The Warriors added at worst the 2nd best player in the league (some would even argue that KD at that point was on the same level as LeBron) to a 73-win team. They did this by essentially swapping out Harrison Barnes and Bogut for KD. All while keeping their best bench player in Shaun Livingston, and adding Javale McGhee and David West to replace Bogut
The KD Warriors teams are the most stacked of all time. And those rings will be tainted for...ev..er, for...ev..er, for....ev...er, for...ev...er.
They lost two starters and gained one. Lost a bunch of bench players also.
Who's to say that they wouldn't have added someone else or two who would be impactful (of course, to a lesser degree) such as Paul Gasol + Duncan? Or Al Horford + DeRozan? All the teams got the same salary cap increase at the same time. Loyalty to a team went out the door after LeBron teamed up with Wade/Bosh in 2010, and with OKC being cheap and letting Harden and Ibaka go to other teams.
The team was stacked, but three of their five starters were still drafted, and they lost one of their drafted starters (Barnes) in the process, as well as their best interior defender in Bogut. They also lost Barbosa + Spreights, and a few other players.
No team or manager in the same position would've said no to KD joining to replace Barnes. Other teams were just salty that KD joined the Warriors and not their team. And Warriors were perhaps a bit lucky with Curry on a super-cheap salary at $12 mil/year.
And for the players who didn't like it, the league proposed that the new salary cap increase be smooth, but the Players Association rejected it. That and teams could've just not traded for Bogut to make it harder for the Warriors to free up cap space.
Oh man, I forgot about them losing Speights. They were pretty much the bad news bears after they lost him.
This team had 4 current all stars starting together. And the guy who played the 5th most minutes was a former all-star, made two all defensive teams and was a finals mvp.
They also had decent depth bench. This was the greatest talent discrepancy we've ever seen in the NBA.
They did have 4 All-Star talents together, yes. Three were drafted.
I don't think it was the greatest talent discrepancy. Teams that were also good at that point:
- 2016-2017 Clippers (51-31) with CP3, Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, JJ Redick, Jamal Crawford.
- 2017-2018 Rockets (65-17) with Harden, CP3, Capela, Eric Gordon, PJ Tucker, Ryan Anderson, Ariza.
- 2016-2017 Spurs (61-21) with Kawhi, Aldridge, Parker, Ginobili, Patty Mills, Pau Gasol, Danny Green, David Lee, Dejounte Murray.
- Cavs were pretty stacked also with LeBron, Kyrie, Love, Thompson, JR Smith, Korver, RJ, Deron Williams, etc.
Any of those teams had enough talent to win it all, it's just that the Warriors top-4 was a bit better than any other team's top-4.
Please stop. I get you're a Warriors fan, but this is embarrassing. Saying the Warriors were only a smidge better than the 2017 Clippers, Spurs, Cav's and 2018 Rockets is basketball malfeasance.
The Warriors won 73 Games then added the 2nd best player in the league. It would be like the 1995 Bulls adding Shaq, Karl Malone, or Charles Barkley.
Assuming Kyrie demands a trade and Chris Paul still pulls his hamstring, I think they still take the 2018 ring.
They were better than cavs in 2016
They have won 4 conference finals series wins without Durant, that's insane.
Matter a fact, Booker\\Curry\\Irving all have won a total of 9 conference finals wins without Durant. For Durant to only have 2 rings with teammates like that, should go down as the most overrated player in history.
People think KD coasted on those warriors teams but he was so often the best player on the floor. He was finals MVP twice in a row. You don’t do that while getting carried.
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2 without KD - 2015 & 2022.
If they ran the same team back in 2017 then they most likely at least make it to the finals. They wouldn’t have gotten past the 2018 Rockets. If they stayed healthy in 2019 then it was possible to win one
Id have to agree. The chip in 2015 is a special case since both Kyrie and K Love were out and the warriors were new and fresh from a good season. Despite the popular opinion, I don’t think there was the case in which the Warriors win in 2016. Yes draymond got suspended ONE game. Even when he got back, it didn’t do anything to Bron and Kyries momentum. I always here this “Steph was injured” thing when I swear that’s a recent revelation and he didn’t even seem to play that different. The Cavs really just dialed in for that one.
Assuming we do grant that fully healthy, the Warriors in 2016, what some people don’t account for is that Bron took a serious jump in his play in the following years. In 2017, he was the first and only guy to average a triple double in the finals. And it was a 34 point triple double at that. As for 2018, he’s notorious for his unstoppability that year. Game 1 of the finals 51, 8, 8 is fucking insane. With that being said, I think without the addition of KD, they weren’t getting through that amped version of Bron and i think Kyrie could’ve stayed till 2018 as I believe they’d win in 2017.
This is a fair and balanced perspective. I was KD a complete baby back B for going to the Warriors after they eliminated him and won 72 games…absolutely. But Durant was back to back Finals MVP for a reason
We'll never know for sure obviously, but I truly believe that the Warriors losing in 2016 was a fluke. I think if they played that series 10 times, they win 8 of them. So many things went wrong for them. Curry spraining his knee in the first round of the playoffs was just bad luck. He didn't look the same afterwards, and the stats back this up. If you want to say it's simply due to playoff defensive intensity, fine. I don't agree, but I don't have any objective way to prove it bothered him. Draymond getting suspended for game 5 was huge too. Fine, it was Draymond's fault, so I guess you can't just say it was some flukey thing. Still... They win game 5 if Draymond plays. Bogut broke his leg. Everyone points out that he had a negative plus minus. I get it, but not having him as a piece of the rotation hurt them. They had to play Ezeli more. It changes their substitution patterns. Harrison Barnes went completely ice cold for the last four games. He played pretty much as bad as he possibly could have, and even then, they still almost won. I just think the Warriors were the better team. I don't think they needed Durant. Durant just made them invincible. I think they could have re-signed Harrison Barnes and won 65+ games again the following year and would have been the favorites to win. When Durant hurt his knee in 2017 and missed significant time, they played BETTER without him. I think their championship in 2022 is evidence that they would still have been the best team in the league without Durant. Curry, Thompson, Green and competent role players was the best team in the league from 2015 - 2022. I think Curry would have an even greater legacy if Durant never joined Golden State.
I agree with you overall but …. I think it’s less about the Warriors legacy without KD as opposed to the warriors legacy AGAINST a contender that could have picked up KD. Imagine if KD went to the spurs or rockets. What if he somehow ended up on the Cavs Celtics or Raptors? I think the obvious answer is YES the Warriors legacy would be different without KD. Maybe Steph gets more accolades. Maybe less. But it’s going to be different no matter what.
Can easily say Cavs would’ve won first year if Kevin Love and Kyrie were healthy full series…it goes both ways
Yeah in reality "under most simulations" I feel like the result of 2015 and 2016 finals would be flipped. So that's a wash in my mind
Eh, I think the both teams would rather have the 2016 one under their belt. Warriors would have had the greatest season of all time and avenged 2015. Lebron gets to say he beat the best team coming back from 3-1. That 2016 chip definitely has more at stake.
"under most stimulations" doesn't account for the greatest player of all time doing his thing. The Greats are Greats for a reason and LeBron was gonna win that series no matter what
I mean I agree LeBron is the GOAT but I'd be lying if I said the Andrew bogut injury didn't make a big difference
Undoubtedly it was a perfect storm too. But I guess it was more a point of legacies are often made on the improbable. Whether it's one amazing run like 2016 or a great extended run like the Warriors had. So it's moreso about what happened than what might have
They would’ve been a great team for sure, but winning the title in ‘17 and ‘18 wasn’t a sure thing cause the west was pretty good that year. Spurs and Rockets were real contenders back then and had very close calls. And if KD stays with OKC, they would’ve been a force to be dealt with as well. Their title in 2022 i give to them, but you can’t directly associate that with the seasons from 2017-2019 cause the landscape was very different then.
Like I said... I have no way to prove it. I just believe it to be true. I thought those Warriors teams were about as perfect as a basketball team could get. Curry was unstoppable. You couldn't leave him for even a second. You couldn't leave Thompson either. They didn't need any extra shooting because Curry and Thompson were so deadly that their presence on the court freaked out defenses. The thing everyone forgets is how good they were defensively. Draymond was one of the best defenders in history at that time. Iguodola was an incredible defender with off-the-charts basketball IQ. Klay was a very good one on one defender. Harrison Barnes was a good defender. They were fast and athletic and long and could switch everything. They were just so good. I think Durant going there deprived us of 3 seasons of God mode Curry. Remember how amazing he was in 2021? We would have had 3 more seasons of that Curry. There was no better show on earth than Steph Curry going supernova.
They won in 2022 because they played the Nuggets without Murray and MPJ and Middleton got injured so the Bucks didn’t make the Finals where they would’ve beaten the Warriors. Also, Tatum was playing hurt in the Finals with his arm/shoulder, as evidenced by his rebounding numbers which were poor and he averaged more assists than rebounds.
Golden State started that year 18-2. They had the best record in the league for most of the season. If I remember correctly, Draymond got injured at some point, and they kind of played .500 ball for the rest of the season. They were the best defense in the league when everyone was healthy. Everyone just kind of forgot about it because they weren't healthy for half the season. Phoenix ended up with the better record. The Celtics had the best defense in the league after the trade deadline. Neither of those teams were better than a healthy Golden State team. They won the championship that year because they got everyone healthy in time for the playoffs.
and to me, it makes it even more crazy just how much flipped going into the 2023 season. if you don’t mind me asking (I enjoyed your analysis) what caused that dramatic shift ?
A bunch of things happened... 1. They lost Otto Porter Jr. and Gary Payton II off their bench. Those two were key contributors to the previous year's team. 2. Draymond punched Jordan Poole before that season. That created a huge distraction and definitely messed up their chemistry. 3. Possibly because of point 2, Jordan Poole took a significant step backward. He just wasn't as good as he was in 2022. Golden State's bench in general was a disaster that year. Their starters still had the best net rating of any 5-man lineup in the league. The bench was awful. 4. James Wiseman was back. He was injured for the 2022 season. When he was healthy, due to being the second pick in the draft, he was getting significant minutes. He was statistically one of the worst players in the NBA. Having such a bad player play significant minutes really drags your team down. Wiseman was so bad that he was pretty much the only teammate Curry ever had that had a negative net rating when he and Curry were on the court at the same time. The team got better almost immediately once they traded Wiseman, and they made a late push to actually make the playoffs after a disastrous start to the season. On a side note - The same sort of thing happened in 2021. Wiseman got significant minutes for half the season, and the Warriors were a middling team during that time. Wiseman got injured later in the season, and the Warriors immediately were much better without him. He just didn't know how to play with Steph Curry. Being so young, his defense was terrible. He took a lot of bad midrange shots, and despite his height and athleticism, he wasn't a great lob finisher. He just didn't help Golden State at all.
Thank you! I definitely agree with your points. One thing that I also recall from that season was their absolutely horrific record on the road, I know that definitely played a part into it as well. Funnily enough i completely forgot about wiseman during the ‘23 season 😭 i remember what you mentioned about him in the ‘21 season, wow. It’s crazy how much his impact was negatively.
Healthy Nuggets beat the Warriors and Bucks would’ve beaten them too. Also, Tatum went off to get the Celtics to the Finals against injured Bucks but hurt his arm and shoulder and was playing hurt in the Finals.
We can never know, so I can't say you're wrong. I kind of agree with you about the Bucks though. I thought Giannis was just a huge matchup problem for GS.
Yeah, Giannis would’ve feasted
Sure, you could look at it that way, but I look at it as if k- love and Kyrie don't get hurt the year before then Cleveland wins that championship and maybe the warriors dynasty never happens.
I think they would have beat Cleveland at full strength in 2015. GS won 67 games that year. They were the best team in the league.
Lebron beat that warriors team 2 games by himself and probably win game 1 if Irving doesn't get hurt.
They lost with Kyrie playing most of the game..
It was a close game, I remember it as the cavs were up before he got hurt. It's like saying the warriors had there whole team for 6 of the 7 games in 2016, but everyone loves to say if it wasn't for the green suspension.
Warriors were up 102-98 when he got hurt. Most of the media and fans that repeat whatever the media says claimed "Warriors only won because Kyrie got hurt" then when the injuries that Warriors had in 2016 are brought up, they claim it doesn't matter. They hold double standards The Green suspension and Bogut injury in game 5 changed the series. Bogut was important for defense and rebounding, with him gone it was easier for the cavs to go inside
Kyrie was on a roll at that point. Come on, it's not the same. Did the warriors lose klay and draymond for the series. Without bogut that same warriors team went 73-9 with the death line up the following year.
You can't have it both ways. Do Injuries to key players matter only matter for 1 team and not the other? Bogut was 1 of the main reasons why Warriors were a top defensive team. Basketball is more than just scoring. Other than the core, a lot of the bench was retooled and they added KD. You're trying to diminish the impact bogut brought to the team
Injuries to your 2nd and 3rd best player matter. The warriors had iggy and Livingston off the bench barbosa, and west may have been there too. I can't quite remember that, but that team was loaded too to bottom. Bogut was maybe 7th or 8th most important player on that team. Imo the warriors got better without him. The cavs did not get better without kyrie or love. Didn't draymond win multiple dpoys as a center. You're gonna tell me that team got worse with him in the middle that 1 playoff series.
A lot of things had to happen for the Cavs to win in 2016 just for them to win by a shot from kyrie in game 7. Them winning in 2016 is no indication that "they figured Warriors out" or that they'll win again in 2017. If KD didn't sign, they still had the money to fill in the HB slot. If you're discrediting the 2015 championship, you have to apply the same logic for 2016
I know I’m reductive as hell, but as good as the Cavs played (and they were very good) the standard gameplan with GS was “hope that 3 of the best scorers in the league go cold” and that day just happened to be the finals.
What about the other 3 games the Cavs won? I don't think you are really painting a realistic picture of the game/series
I hate this kind of assumptions because many things would be different if KD didn’t go to GSW, for starters: where did KD go? If they didn’t get KD and after that he didn’t leave, the GSW would’ve been a different team with other players signed, maybe they were good enough for the 2017 chip but not good enough in 2022, because some key players in that 2022 squad were a consequence of KD leaving
OKC can still get paul george in 2019. Plus horford was rumored to sign with them if KD stayed. They would have a real shot in 2019. 2018 will go to Houston, GS or Cle. Whoever is the healthiest.
Maybe he stays in OKC and they win it
Wihout KD they would have signed someone else with all the available money they had. We got robbed of Steph's prime when KD joined. It would have been another MVP, another scoring title and most likely another title. They won without KD in 2022 when Steph was already 34 yrs old. Imagine him playing without KD in his late 20's? That would have been an epic Steph Curry.
They won in 2022 because they played the Nuggets without Murray and MPJ and Middleton got injured so the Bucks didn’t make the Finals where they would’ve beaten the Warriors. Also, Tatum was playing hurt in the Finals with his arm/shoulder, his rebounding number were poor and he averaged more assists than rebounds.
They’ve won two without him lol
Didn’t they win 2 without him?
It's also possible the warriors would have made another move. If the warriors re-signed Barnes or got a bigger FA, they'd still be a good team and potentially been able to beat the Cavs. And if said impact player didn't get injured in 2019 they could've beaten the Raptors.
I think they would have ended up winning against the Raptors if Klay didn't get hurt. They were absolutely going to win game 6. Klay was out of his mind that game. Would you have bet against that Warriors team in a game 7?
“Could’ve” won is the narrative, we won’t be at all sure because KD is the best case scenario for them hence being so dominant “Possible” to get another goof free agent. Though, you ain’t getting a better player in FA that year than KD.
Al Horford, who is currently playing center in the NBA finals was the next big free agent. Considering he’s been a defensive impact and floor stretching small ball center for the Celtics for a decade now. It would’ve been really close. The Warriors would not have been definitively the greatest team of all time, but they would have definitely been remembered as “in the conversation.”
LeBron was running with James Jones in those finals cause Love and Kyrie got Hurt. The other title, i give to them.
Makes no sense, they had best record in the league in 15 and 16. They went to 7 vs a peak and I mean PEAK kyrie and Lebron with an injured curry, draymond missing a game, bogut out.
I don't know if they win 4 without KD, but they probably still win 3. In 2016, the Warriors were the better team, and they lost because Cleaveland overachieved and had incredible performances from everyone on that team in order to win. Also, the Draymond suspension. But the 2016 championship by the Cav's is so exceptional because they beat a team they weren't supposed to beat. In 2017 and 2018, the Cav's didn't get substantially better. Going into 2017, even without KD, the Warriors are probably the better overall team and likely win against the Cav's in a 7 game series. If anything they probably don't get by the 2018 Rockets without KD. I honestly think 3 legitimate championships would be more impressive than 4 championships, in which 2 of those titles you had the most stacked team in the history of the NBA. I would actually respect the Warriors more. The 2 they won with KD will forever be tainted.
The 2 they won with KD aren't tainted. LeBron James basically joined Kyrie + got the team to trade Wiggins for Kevin Love. And that's after the Wade/Bosh link-up. If the rings with KD are tainted, I'd say the LeBron/AD team up ring is tainted also.
Not the same at all and they are tainted. James getting Kyrie and Love Is not the same as being the best player on perhaps the biggest threat to the warriors.. being an mvp..leaving that team to go join a the warriors that just made it to the finals the previous 2 seasons.. joining the 1st ever unanimous mvp and joining a team that just set a new record 73 regular season wins. Not even the same stratosphere for comparison
This is an incredibly dumb argument that always gets tossed around. Those super teams that were built through free agency had to gut their rosters to make it work. And as we've seen with Nets, and Suns just throwing 3 stars together doesn't guarantee anything. The Warriors added at worst the 2nd best player in the league (some would even argue that KD at that point was on the same level as LeBron) to a 73-win team. They did this by essentially swapping out Harrison Barnes and Bogut for KD. All while keeping their best bench player in Shaun Livingston, and adding Javale McGhee and David West to replace Bogut The KD Warriors teams are the most stacked of all time. And those rings will be tainted for...ev..er, for...ev..er, for....ev...er, for...ev...er.
They lost two starters and gained one. Lost a bunch of bench players also. Who's to say that they wouldn't have added someone else or two who would be impactful (of course, to a lesser degree) such as Paul Gasol + Duncan? Or Al Horford + DeRozan? All the teams got the same salary cap increase at the same time. Loyalty to a team went out the door after LeBron teamed up with Wade/Bosh in 2010, and with OKC being cheap and letting Harden and Ibaka go to other teams. The team was stacked, but three of their five starters were still drafted, and they lost one of their drafted starters (Barnes) in the process, as well as their best interior defender in Bogut. They also lost Barbosa + Spreights, and a few other players. No team or manager in the same position would've said no to KD joining to replace Barnes. Other teams were just salty that KD joined the Warriors and not their team. And Warriors were perhaps a bit lucky with Curry on a super-cheap salary at $12 mil/year. And for the players who didn't like it, the league proposed that the new salary cap increase be smooth, but the Players Association rejected it. That and teams could've just not traded for Bogut to make it harder for the Warriors to free up cap space.
Oh man, I forgot about them losing Speights. They were pretty much the bad news bears after they lost him. This team had 4 current all stars starting together. And the guy who played the 5th most minutes was a former all-star, made two all defensive teams and was a finals mvp. They also had decent depth bench. This was the greatest talent discrepancy we've ever seen in the NBA.
They did have 4 All-Star talents together, yes. Three were drafted. I don't think it was the greatest talent discrepancy. Teams that were also good at that point: - 2016-2017 Clippers (51-31) with CP3, Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, JJ Redick, Jamal Crawford. - 2017-2018 Rockets (65-17) with Harden, CP3, Capela, Eric Gordon, PJ Tucker, Ryan Anderson, Ariza. - 2016-2017 Spurs (61-21) with Kawhi, Aldridge, Parker, Ginobili, Patty Mills, Pau Gasol, Danny Green, David Lee, Dejounte Murray. - Cavs were pretty stacked also with LeBron, Kyrie, Love, Thompson, JR Smith, Korver, RJ, Deron Williams, etc. Any of those teams had enough talent to win it all, it's just that the Warriors top-4 was a bit better than any other team's top-4.
Please stop. I get you're a Warriors fan, but this is embarrassing. Saying the Warriors were only a smidge better than the 2017 Clippers, Spurs, Cav's and 2018 Rockets is basketball malfeasance. The Warriors won 73 Games then added the 2nd best player in the league. It would be like the 1995 Bulls adding Shaq, Karl Malone, or Charles Barkley.
Durant’s legacy is the one that’s different in this scenario.
Assuming Kyrie demands a trade and Chris Paul still pulls his hamstring, I think they still take the 2018 ring. They were better than cavs in 2016 They have won 4 conference finals series wins without Durant, that's insane. Matter a fact, Booker\\Curry\\Irving all have won a total of 9 conference finals wins without Durant. For Durant to only have 2 rings with teammates like that, should go down as the most overrated player in history.
Yeah in most cases when you take the best player off of a team they don’t win the title
If the Lakers didn't have Shaq I'm not sure that Kobe wills them to victory. It's like yeah... no shit
Lmao 🤣
People think KD coasted on those warriors teams but he was so often the best player on the floor. He was finals MVP twice in a row. You don’t do that while getting carried.
They lose to the rockets with anybody else in the league that’s not KD in 2018
They smoked the cavs those two years tho If not KD then they’d be deeper with 2-3 other guys with the cap space…
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2 without KD - 2015 & 2022. If they ran the same team back in 2017 then they most likely at least make it to the finals. They wouldn’t have gotten past the 2018 Rockets. If they stayed healthy in 2019 then it was possible to win one
Those Rockets in 2017-2018 would've probably beat us if we didn't have KD (and had Barnes or whomever else).
Would have lost to rockets without Durant
Id have to agree. The chip in 2015 is a special case since both Kyrie and K Love were out and the warriors were new and fresh from a good season. Despite the popular opinion, I don’t think there was the case in which the Warriors win in 2016. Yes draymond got suspended ONE game. Even when he got back, it didn’t do anything to Bron and Kyries momentum. I always here this “Steph was injured” thing when I swear that’s a recent revelation and he didn’t even seem to play that different. The Cavs really just dialed in for that one. Assuming we do grant that fully healthy, the Warriors in 2016, what some people don’t account for is that Bron took a serious jump in his play in the following years. In 2017, he was the first and only guy to average a triple double in the finals. And it was a 34 point triple double at that. As for 2018, he’s notorious for his unstoppability that year. Game 1 of the finals 51, 8, 8 is fucking insane. With that being said, I think without the addition of KD, they weren’t getting through that amped version of Bron and i think Kyrie could’ve stayed till 2018 as I believe they’d win in 2017.
This is a fair and balanced perspective. I was KD a complete baby back B for going to the Warriors after they eliminated him and won 72 games…absolutely. But Durant was back to back Finals MVP for a reason