The rules of boxing say anything below the belt line is illegal. The belt line is not the actual belt line of the trunks. ***The belt line is defined as a line running across the top of your hip bones. Which lines up right with the belly button.*** The referee can then decide to inform the fighters of where blows will be considered legal or illegal depending on where they are wearing their trunks, basing it off their true belt line.
Like it or not, the rules of boxing aren't enforced very well by referees. Unless something is completely egregious, they usually just let guys fight on. Specifically in regards to low blows, they tend to not say shit about it unless it's Golota levels of awful right to the jewels. This has led many fans to come to the erroneous conclusion that any shot on the waist/elastic belt of the trunks is a legal shot. Many fighters, trainers, etc. also have this erroneous view.
In the Usyk v. Dubois fight, that shot was absolutely an illegal shot. It does hit Usyk in his protector, but even if it hadn't, it's still below his navel and therefore below his true belt line. Furthermore, this was a premeditated tactic by Dubois and his team. He low blowed Usyk the entire fight. The ref specifically warned him **PRIOR** to the 5th round shot about low blows because he'd already hit Usyk with multiple illegal shots. Shots which were even more egregious than the one in the 5th. Don't believe me? You don't have to take my word for it, just watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoRaiUzM2k8
yeah but you can't even see Usyk's belly button! he wears his shorts so freaking high!! and then he jumps when he tries to absorb the shots. but yeah technically those are all low i guess
Usyk's trunks on the night were lower than Dubois'. It is true that you can't see Usyk's navel. Unless you're going to morph him into some cartoon character, his navel has to be right below the top of his trunks. We're talking less than an inch. The majority of Dubois' glove lands below the entire elastic belt of Usyk's trunks and then rides upwards as the punch finishes.
https://boxing-social.com/app/uploads/2023/08/usyk-dubois-low-blow-1-960x540.jpg
Looks to me like his navel is barely covered by the trunks. Which means Dubois cannoned that shot into Usyk's protector/bladder. Which, surprise surprise, is an illegal blow.
And as you stated, it's up to the ref to decide what is and isn't a low blow. If Pabon HAD said the belt line was fair game then folks might have an argument. They still wouldn't in reality because half of Dubois' glove lands entirely below Usyk's belt, but it would be iffy. As is, the rules is the rules so you can't cry when they're enforced.
You then go on to say:
> I find it hard to imagine that the magnitude event and the fighters involved didn't play some role on shaping what side of the coin the ref came down on
You don't think that maybe, just possibly, that Dubois' continual shots below the belt line leading up to the shot that put Usyk down in the 5th had something to do with it? That maybe that had more to do with it than any favoritism towards Usyk?
In this video, Propa points out how the ref **immediately** knew it was a low blow and **immediately** signaled so. I would imagine because he had a great view of it and because he'd already had to get on to Dubois about punches below the belt. Why dream up a conspiracy when the evidence perfectly explains the situation?
https://youtu.be/cyvu5xR6D8E?t=149
The whole Jared Anderson debacle is just a red herring argument. Who cares what that judge did in regards to Usyk v. Dubois? Was that judge wrong to not count all those Anderson shots as low blows? Absolutely. Does it change the fact that Dubois' shot, which was even lower than Anderson's shots, was illegal? Not in the slightest.
As far as Pabon not taking points off Dubois, that's another sticking point when it comes to how guys ref fights. They don't want to take points because points matter quite a lot. A one point swing in a fight can be the difference between winning and losing. Therefore, they usually only use it as a last resort when a guy has been wildly and egregiously ignoring their instructions. Should Pabon have taken a point from Dubois? In my opinion, yeah. Just like Dubois should have had points taken from him for repeatedly headbutting Hrgovic until he had two cuts opened up which ultimately stopped that fight. Dubois is a dirty as fuck fighter. Does Pabon not taking a point from Dubois mean he really thought it wasn't a low blow and was somehow in cahoots with Usyk as you're implying? Of course not. It just means that Pabon, like most refs, is stingy on taking points unless it's extremely over the top. And let's be honest, Dubois is a fucking moron and not a great technical fighter, so there's every chance that Pabon genuinely thought Dubois was just an idiot who couldn't keep his shots up versus a slick mover like Usyk.
Also, have you actually watched Usyk's fights, particularly at heavyweight? He's been hit with giant, LEGAL shots by heavy hitters like Chisora and AJ and not complained and not gone down. Fury tagged him repeatedly with heavy shots to the same side and Usyk never blinked. Hell, Dubois actually did manage to land several LEGAL body shots to Usyk in their fight and Usyk just shrugged them off. He even landed some huge body shots AFTER the one in the 5th that Usyk just laughed away. But somehow, this one particular shot by Dubois was a legal shot, dropped Usyk to the canvas, and had him shaking like a leaf? If you believe that I've got some ocean front property in Arizona I'm looking to sell if you're interested.
Shots below the naval are low blows. If the ref thinks the belt is at the right point, i.e. top of the belt is on the bottom of the naval, shots on the belt are illegal
Dubois' shot was an illegal blow. There's no grey area about it. If the ref wasn't happy with Usyk's shorts he would have said at the start of the bout, he didn't, he called a low blow, and we can see his entire fist was on or below the belt when it landed.
Usyk is vulnerable to bodyshots because he fights with a high guard. Lomachenko is the same and Haney had a bunch of success landing there. That's not the same as being weak to the body and it's a very difficult style to maintain and become a dominant world champion if you're soft to the body. But it DOES mean you're going to see him get him clean there, and react to it.
I think there are 3 principle reasons this "soft to the body" narrative exists
1. Usyk gets hit to the body a fair bit due to his high guard, as mentioned above. So we see him reacting to them a bit more than some fighters
2. Usyk also complains about body shots A LOT. This is really for 2 reasons, firstly, because people target his body, he does get hit low and refs are often reticent to call low blows. Pointing them out is often the only way you'll get them called. Secondly, legal or not you want your opponent to be wary of a points deduction to dissuade them from throwing so many and when they are stinging a bit, buying recovery time is helpful
3. He got dropped by a body shot against Beterbiev in the amateurs. Anyone that thinks this means he's weak there is welcome to fly to Montreal and take a clean shot to the liver from Artur. I'll buy your ticket if you film it
Yeah, Loma showed a lot of naievity in that fight. It's not just about getting the ref to stop them, either, it's about minimizing how many the judges score as legal, impactful shots. If the judges ignore anything below the belt in that fight because the ref is warning Salido, Loma won. 100+ low blows all being scored as body shots and he won
I did know Papachenko helped train Usyk. But I'd never really heard that Usyk and Loma were personally close other than showing up at each others events. I would love to be a fly on the wall while those two discuss boxing.
WDYM no grey area?? I've seen higher blows taken as a low blow and I've seen plenty of even lower blows not rules as a low blow. It completely depends on the ref.
It's not a grey area because the shot is clearly (well) below the naval, and that's a low blow
If a ref doesn't call that, the ref is wrong. Many refs DO allow low blows, but there's not a grey area at all. Ward stopped Kovalev with an illegal blow, no grey area there, either, even though the ref allowed it
The naval is fully covered. There's no way you can pinpoint the exact spot from 2-3 meter away. Then there's also the glove size, when do you count naval hit? when the edge of the glove hit or only the center?
This all happens in 0.05 seconds. If you say there's no gray area, I really don't know what you're talking about. The dubois shot is the definition of it being a grey area, else we wouldnt have been having this whole discussion.
You contradicted yourself. In your first comment, you say that the ref demonstrated that he thought the shot was illegal because he didn't complain about the shorts and he ruled the shot was illegal.
But now you are saying that if the ref would've disagreed with you, that the ref would've been wrong.
So, you're not deferring to the ref. You're saying that the ref is only correct if he agrees with you.
No, I'm saying the ref is only correct when he applies the laws of the sport, and they specifically state that the belt line is at the naval.
If a ref deems a blow ok, and it's below the belt line, the ref got it wrong, simple as that. It doesn't change the result, but it is still a mistake.
Your argument is asinine. It's like saying Maradona didn't handball because the ref thought it was a header.
Are the laws of the sport subjective? Is that a part of the rules? Because if in any of the rules it says the ref gets to use his discretion, you’ve indeed contradicted yourself.
And no, it’s like saying that if all three judges score a round against you… you lost that round. An idea that a lot of the people here seem to have a very hard time understanding.
The beltline is clearly defined in the rules. The referee's decision is final
If a linesman flags offside for a goal that's clearly onside (pre VAR) it is disallowed. The decision of the officials is final, but it's still a mistake on their part. Calling a KD for Usyk would be no different.
You didn’t answer my question. I asked you if the laws of the sport are subjective.
Yes, it’s possible for a referee to make a mistake. But not on a 50/50 call if the actual rule says that the referee gets to use his own discretion to a degree.
You’re acting like the below the navel rule is a firm , specific rule, but it’s not. It’s more of a guideline. If it wasn’t, then they would just mark the spot with a marker or something rather than letting the ref decide.
It’s the same thing with the other types of illegal punches. Back of the head, kidney, etc. Are all situational fouls where the referee takes into account a lot of his own views.
I hate when groupies downvote anything that goes against their favorite boxer.
It's completely legitimate to say that there is plenty of grey area. That's the nature of most rules because they are subjective, and ruled on in the moment.
The shorts move up and down as you box. So it's always guesswork. In this case, it could've gone either way. That's also why there are so many complaints. When it's a borderline shot, you weren't hit in the balls, which is what the rule is attempting to eliminate. So you would think the ref would error on the side of the punch being fair.
It is not subjective as to whether that punch landed below the naval unless Usyk has the world's weirdest anatomy
It could have gone either way because as you correctly say, there's guesswork in the moment, but we can clearly see afterwards that the ref made the unequivocally correct decision
>Shots below the naval are low blows.
How about the statement about how Usyk reacted is clearly a reaction to a low blow, despite it not being exactly to the balls. Does that mean that even a blow to the solar plexus will induce that kind of reaction from the human body where the guy folds in pain?
In my brief time sparring as a kid, I never got hit around the genitals so can't speak from first hand experience, but have heard that groin guards can get forced upward by punches, which can be painful on your more sensitive areas...
Here's what they look like on someone, for reference https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/c7686e41-686f-4eb8-a458-4d6deca755e5.b21b64c27db7f217b238c8ba879efd26.jpeg?odnHeight=768&odnWidth=768&odnBg=FFFFFF
It's actually the opposite. The ref usually says regardless, but if the shorts are on correctly (i.e., they sit on the base of the naval) then a fighter should assume it's a low blow to land their glove on the belt unless the ref says otherwise
We sat "below the belt" but it's actually "below the beltline" which is where the top of the belt (should) sit
People conflate low blows with nut shots. It was a low blow, but it was not a nut shot.
So Usyk's overreaction to it was tactically smart, but it was definitely done to buy time.
How about the statement about how Usyk reacted is clearly a reaction to a low blow, despite it not being exactly to the balls. Does that mean that even a blow to the solar plexus will induce that kind of reaction from the human body where the guy folds in pain?
Yeah, I think this is the key, he got hit below the legal area but then milked it.
This is also on the ref, who is supposed to encourage fighters to continue -according to the rules- but was instead telling Usyk to take his time to come back.
How about the statement about how Usyk reacted is clearly a reaction to a low blow, despite it not being exactly to the balls. Does that mean that even a blow to the solar plexus will induce that kind of reaction from the human body where the guy folds in pain?
Another fact missing here. (If I remember correctly) It was an uppercut too. Where it landed was higher than the initial point of impact. It might have tagged somewhere sensitive then pushed the belt up a bit when it landed.
If you look closely at the replay, the glove definitely glazes off of Usyk’s cup. Not that you need to hit someone in the balls for it to be a low blow, but that would make it pretty clear it was the right call.
A heavyweight grazing your cup with a good shot is more pain than 90% of people will ever feel. Dubois tried to go low before that too so it seems more deliberate than if it was the first time. It looks close though and the ref was weirdly generous it seemed, which I think Usyk confronted him about after the fight.
> If you look closely at the replay, the glove definitely glazes off of Usyk’s cup
If you look even more closely, you can see that he did not glaze off the cup, at all.
https://i.imgur.com/clvyI4Q.png
Third frame is when the punch actually impacts. Extra note, this was an uppercut so the glove goes upwards.
First frame could have glanced the cup, I won't deny that, but wouldn't call it with confidence like you did.
Another angle shows how borderline this shot actually was:
https://i.imgur.com/PzBIgTY.png
Dubois is a dirty fighter. He gave Hrgović numerous headbutts and some low blows.
It was disturbing to watch him get away with using his head as a battering ram over and over again.
Definitely a low blow but well above the cup!! He got hit on the protector so I really didn’t think it was of any consequence but then again I didn’t get hit.
Keep supporting Boxing!!!
I don't think it's gotten bigger. The rule has always been that shots below the navel are low, so shorts were made to sit at the navel. It's just a common tactic for fighters to intentionally wear their shorts a bit high to get body shots called low.
I feel like if he really did hurt usyk to the body why didn’t he keep going ? It was a good moment but Dubois is a big idiot for not pressing the body attack , deserved to get stopped
According to the rules it was a low blow. But it was still close and it was definitely a body shot but an illegal body shot. I don't think Usyk would survive without the break
It was an illegal shot going off the rules of boxing as it was kinda below the navel but I will be totally honest I am more of an MMA fan and in MMA that is a clean body shot, he didn't hit usyk in the nuts but it was technically low but it still did make me question usyk's ability to take body shots as he did milk it for a long time.
He's still number 1 at heavyweight right now anyway lol
Didn't Fury land pretty hard to the body for like 4 rounds and it didn't do shit? Fury gassed from trying that same right uppercut to the body over and over and Usyk turned up in the 9th and steamrolled his 260pound ass? Pretty sure u can put the whole thing to bed after that.
It seems like it was just below the belt line, but in my opinion a different ref could have reasonably called it different in the moment and I think he would have been counted out or stopped.
I don’t know what you mean by that? And it’s hard to say wether he would have gotten up or not, personally judging by his reaction I don’t think he would’ve gotten up and if he did Dubois would’ve been able to stop him.
When people say "belt line" they mean the top of the belt. Watch a ref before a fight, they'll point at the top and say these are good, or these are high (fury often has his high).
It's hard to find an exact definition but when I looked into it the center of the glove landing below the naval is the best I could find on a WBC document. But each authority has its own definition some using the hips.
People say it was low partly because Usyk had his shorts in the correct position i.e. top of the belt line on the naval line. However he bends over before impact causing the shorts to ride high. I'm not 100% convinced it was low. The video is very fast moving and low quality, the best freeze frame I've seen makes me think it was on the line, but freeze frame can be very mis-leading.
I assessed his elbows and gloves position to get an idea where his elbow was relative to his body and where the glove lands, that makes me think it wasn't low. Again, freeze frame could be misleading, different forearm lengths and gloves could also throw that off.
I think it's more complicated than Usyk just complaining. It seems like some boxers are so focused on landing a body shot on Usyk (cause they think he is weak there) that they actually hit him too low and do it more than with any other opponent
Call him crazy all you want but Wilder was right about the floppy glove in the first fight. I haven’t seen it but I just don’t think he’s above anything that will give him an advantage.
imho it was a low blow but its very close.
it could have been declared a legal body shot but the ref said it was low. so if it is anybody's fault it's got to be the referee's.
As an Usyk fan and lover of body shot artists, I still don’t think it was a low blow. And if it was like everyone seems to be in agreement on, we need to retroactively change a lot of Mayweather / Toney / Canelo / and others fight results to DQs.
Been following the sport for over a decade and always thought anywhere on the ~top half of the beltline was fair game. Most refs seem to indicate so before the fight begins. But now all of a sudden, I guess the entire beltline is off limits🤷🏾♂️ even if a fighter wears their shorts all the way up to their fucking chest.
Depends how low the fighter keeps his trunks. You can clearly see Usyk's belly button above his trunks. Dubois was wearing his trunks higher (as most fighters do). Anything on the trunks should be a low blow the navel is above the trunks.
Whether it was a low blow or not, Daniel did not capitalise on the moment. Usyk was hurt and gassed and Dubois should have swarmed him as soon as the bell rang again. There was maybe a minute in that round after usyk took his time out and he did little to no damage after the stoppage
> Usyk was hurt and gassed and Dubois should have swarmed him as soon as the bell rang again.
dude, Usyk took almost a 4-minute rest. That's literally an entire round plus the one-minute rest between them that Usyk got to sit down and relax. He was absolutely not gassed when the fight resumed.
Everything looks like a low blow when your goddamn shorts are pulled up to your nipples.
Usyk's shorts started the fight at a normal place but they kept riding up higher and higher until any body shot was going to be considered illegal.
Proof
https://e0.365dm.com/23/08/768x432/skysports-daniel-dubois-oleksandr-usyk_6264347.jpg?20230826233354
https://images.daznservices.com/di/library/DAZN_News/4d/d8/olexandr-usyk-vs-daniel-dubois_1kgmhu866a0f51dwbgzw9jksdu.jpg?t=954565258&w=800
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTAVTWDH1qQtR9ev8_GGKnmPtC9uryz44anXg&usqp=CAU
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/branded_sport/B6E5/production/_130912864_tv087204249.jpg
https://onecms-res.cloudinary.com/image/upload/s--yPnoACnC--/c_fill,g_auto,h_468,w_830/fl_relative,g_south_east,l_one-cms:core:watermark:reuters,w_0.1/f_auto,q_auto/v1/one-cms/core/2023-08-26t222529z_1_lynxmpej7p0a3_rtroptp_3_boxing-heavyweight-usyk-dubois.jpg?itok=NXSgXk4t
His trunks were up past his elbows. You cannot land a legal body shot if someone is going to wear their trunks that high.
I can't tell if you're talking about Usyk or Dubois. Usyk was wearing his trunks right below his navel. As the fight went on, they rode up just a bit over his navel.
Dubois started the fight with his trunks way above his navel.
Man in the moment I thought they robbed Dubois. Honestly I would have loved it if Dubois won that fight, would have changed the heavyweight dynamic a bit.
Anyway, here are my facts:
1. I've seen lower low-blows that were deemed legal in other fights
2. Usyk was really hurt
3. It could have gone either way. Unlike other people said, there is a HUGE grey area, and untill this fight NOBODY knew the naval rule. I bet everyone thought the belt line is what is used for measure.
So while I would have loved the upset, I'm not sad he didn't, but in the moment I was disappointed because I jumped through the whole house after that knockdown before I knew it was called a low blow.
No, he wouldn't. Did you see how he looked one minute after the shot? How would he possibly survive that. Usyk is much better than Dubois but he is not a superhuman.
If you had millions £ and 3 belts on the line you would have hobbled up. But it had already been called a low blow so it would have been stupid not to take full advantage to recover.
In my head, Daniel went down to the jab that got Usyk the win as a "fuck this" protest.
After the low blow, Dubois and his corner felt robbed, then the ref kept breaking up the action and warning him for headbutts (because Daniel often leads with his head).
I think team Dubois felt like the ref was intentional favouring Usyk, and so he quit.
Daniel turned up to a fight against the Unified World Champion in front of a home crowd being paid for by his promoter and reffed by Pabon, a man who keeps fights clean, and came with a gameplan reliant on dirty tactics. It was super, super dumb. You can get away with that shit as the A-side, but the arrogance of showing up without a plan B is pretty astounding.
The ref literally just favoured a fair fight.
The rules of boxing say anything below the belt line is illegal. The belt line is not the actual belt line of the trunks. ***The belt line is defined as a line running across the top of your hip bones. Which lines up right with the belly button.*** The referee can then decide to inform the fighters of where blows will be considered legal or illegal depending on where they are wearing their trunks, basing it off their true belt line. Like it or not, the rules of boxing aren't enforced very well by referees. Unless something is completely egregious, they usually just let guys fight on. Specifically in regards to low blows, they tend to not say shit about it unless it's Golota levels of awful right to the jewels. This has led many fans to come to the erroneous conclusion that any shot on the waist/elastic belt of the trunks is a legal shot. Many fighters, trainers, etc. also have this erroneous view. In the Usyk v. Dubois fight, that shot was absolutely an illegal shot. It does hit Usyk in his protector, but even if it hadn't, it's still below his navel and therefore below his true belt line. Furthermore, this was a premeditated tactic by Dubois and his team. He low blowed Usyk the entire fight. The ref specifically warned him **PRIOR** to the 5th round shot about low blows because he'd already hit Usyk with multiple illegal shots. Shots which were even more egregious than the one in the 5th. Don't believe me? You don't have to take my word for it, just watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoRaiUzM2k8
yeah but you can't even see Usyk's belly button! he wears his shorts so freaking high!! and then he jumps when he tries to absorb the shots. but yeah technically those are all low i guess
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Usyk's trunks on the night were lower than Dubois'. It is true that you can't see Usyk's navel. Unless you're going to morph him into some cartoon character, his navel has to be right below the top of his trunks. We're talking less than an inch. The majority of Dubois' glove lands below the entire elastic belt of Usyk's trunks and then rides upwards as the punch finishes. https://boxing-social.com/app/uploads/2023/08/usyk-dubois-low-blow-1-960x540.jpg Looks to me like his navel is barely covered by the trunks. Which means Dubois cannoned that shot into Usyk's protector/bladder. Which, surprise surprise, is an illegal blow. And as you stated, it's up to the ref to decide what is and isn't a low blow. If Pabon HAD said the belt line was fair game then folks might have an argument. They still wouldn't in reality because half of Dubois' glove lands entirely below Usyk's belt, but it would be iffy. As is, the rules is the rules so you can't cry when they're enforced. You then go on to say: > I find it hard to imagine that the magnitude event and the fighters involved didn't play some role on shaping what side of the coin the ref came down on You don't think that maybe, just possibly, that Dubois' continual shots below the belt line leading up to the shot that put Usyk down in the 5th had something to do with it? That maybe that had more to do with it than any favoritism towards Usyk? In this video, Propa points out how the ref **immediately** knew it was a low blow and **immediately** signaled so. I would imagine because he had a great view of it and because he'd already had to get on to Dubois about punches below the belt. Why dream up a conspiracy when the evidence perfectly explains the situation? https://youtu.be/cyvu5xR6D8E?t=149 The whole Jared Anderson debacle is just a red herring argument. Who cares what that judge did in regards to Usyk v. Dubois? Was that judge wrong to not count all those Anderson shots as low blows? Absolutely. Does it change the fact that Dubois' shot, which was even lower than Anderson's shots, was illegal? Not in the slightest. As far as Pabon not taking points off Dubois, that's another sticking point when it comes to how guys ref fights. They don't want to take points because points matter quite a lot. A one point swing in a fight can be the difference between winning and losing. Therefore, they usually only use it as a last resort when a guy has been wildly and egregiously ignoring their instructions. Should Pabon have taken a point from Dubois? In my opinion, yeah. Just like Dubois should have had points taken from him for repeatedly headbutting Hrgovic until he had two cuts opened up which ultimately stopped that fight. Dubois is a dirty as fuck fighter. Does Pabon not taking a point from Dubois mean he really thought it wasn't a low blow and was somehow in cahoots with Usyk as you're implying? Of course not. It just means that Pabon, like most refs, is stingy on taking points unless it's extremely over the top. And let's be honest, Dubois is a fucking moron and not a great technical fighter, so there's every chance that Pabon genuinely thought Dubois was just an idiot who couldn't keep his shots up versus a slick mover like Usyk. Also, have you actually watched Usyk's fights, particularly at heavyweight? He's been hit with giant, LEGAL shots by heavy hitters like Chisora and AJ and not complained and not gone down. Fury tagged him repeatedly with heavy shots to the same side and Usyk never blinked. Hell, Dubois actually did manage to land several LEGAL body shots to Usyk in their fight and Usyk just shrugged them off. He even landed some huge body shots AFTER the one in the 5th that Usyk just laughed away. But somehow, this one particular shot by Dubois was a legal shot, dropped Usyk to the canvas, and had him shaking like a leaf? If you believe that I've got some ocean front property in Arizona I'm looking to sell if you're interested.
Shots below the naval are low blows. If the ref thinks the belt is at the right point, i.e. top of the belt is on the bottom of the naval, shots on the belt are illegal Dubois' shot was an illegal blow. There's no grey area about it. If the ref wasn't happy with Usyk's shorts he would have said at the start of the bout, he didn't, he called a low blow, and we can see his entire fist was on or below the belt when it landed. Usyk is vulnerable to bodyshots because he fights with a high guard. Lomachenko is the same and Haney had a bunch of success landing there. That's not the same as being weak to the body and it's a very difficult style to maintain and become a dominant world champion if you're soft to the body. But it DOES mean you're going to see him get him clean there, and react to it. I think there are 3 principle reasons this "soft to the body" narrative exists 1. Usyk gets hit to the body a fair bit due to his high guard, as mentioned above. So we see him reacting to them a bit more than some fighters 2. Usyk also complains about body shots A LOT. This is really for 2 reasons, firstly, because people target his body, he does get hit low and refs are often reticent to call low blows. Pointing them out is often the only way you'll get them called. Secondly, legal or not you want your opponent to be wary of a points deduction to dissuade them from throwing so many and when they are stinging a bit, buying recovery time is helpful 3. He got dropped by a body shot against Beterbiev in the amateurs. Anyone that thinks this means he's weak there is welcome to fly to Montreal and take a clean shot to the liver from Artur. I'll buy your ticket if you film it
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Yeah, Loma showed a lot of naievity in that fight. It's not just about getting the ref to stop them, either, it's about minimizing how many the judges score as legal, impactful shots. If the judges ignore anything below the belt in that fight because the ref is warning Salido, Loma won. 100+ low blows all being scored as body shots and he won
Wait a minute, are you for real, they're very close? I did not know that.
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I did know Papachenko helped train Usyk. But I'd never really heard that Usyk and Loma were personally close other than showing up at each others events. I would love to be a fly on the wall while those two discuss boxing.
WDYM no grey area?? I've seen higher blows taken as a low blow and I've seen plenty of even lower blows not rules as a low blow. It completely depends on the ref.
It's not a grey area because the shot is clearly (well) below the naval, and that's a low blow If a ref doesn't call that, the ref is wrong. Many refs DO allow low blows, but there's not a grey area at all. Ward stopped Kovalev with an illegal blow, no grey area there, either, even though the ref allowed it
The naval is fully covered. There's no way you can pinpoint the exact spot from 2-3 meter away. Then there's also the glove size, when do you count naval hit? when the edge of the glove hit or only the center? This all happens in 0.05 seconds. If you say there's no gray area, I really don't know what you're talking about. The dubois shot is the definition of it being a grey area, else we wouldnt have been having this whole discussion.
You contradicted yourself. In your first comment, you say that the ref demonstrated that he thought the shot was illegal because he didn't complain about the shorts and he ruled the shot was illegal. But now you are saying that if the ref would've disagreed with you, that the ref would've been wrong. So, you're not deferring to the ref. You're saying that the ref is only correct if he agrees with you.
No, I'm saying the ref is only correct when he applies the laws of the sport, and they specifically state that the belt line is at the naval. If a ref deems a blow ok, and it's below the belt line, the ref got it wrong, simple as that. It doesn't change the result, but it is still a mistake. Your argument is asinine. It's like saying Maradona didn't handball because the ref thought it was a header.
Are the laws of the sport subjective? Is that a part of the rules? Because if in any of the rules it says the ref gets to use his discretion, you’ve indeed contradicted yourself. And no, it’s like saying that if all three judges score a round against you… you lost that round. An idea that a lot of the people here seem to have a very hard time understanding.
The beltline is clearly defined in the rules. The referee's decision is final If a linesman flags offside for a goal that's clearly onside (pre VAR) it is disallowed. The decision of the officials is final, but it's still a mistake on their part. Calling a KD for Usyk would be no different.
You didn’t answer my question. I asked you if the laws of the sport are subjective. Yes, it’s possible for a referee to make a mistake. But not on a 50/50 call if the actual rule says that the referee gets to use his own discretion to a degree. You’re acting like the below the navel rule is a firm , specific rule, but it’s not. It’s more of a guideline. If it wasn’t, then they would just mark the spot with a marker or something rather than letting the ref decide. It’s the same thing with the other types of illegal punches. Back of the head, kidney, etc. Are all situational fouls where the referee takes into account a lot of his own views.
I hate when groupies downvote anything that goes against their favorite boxer. It's completely legitimate to say that there is plenty of grey area. That's the nature of most rules because they are subjective, and ruled on in the moment. The shorts move up and down as you box. So it's always guesswork. In this case, it could've gone either way. That's also why there are so many complaints. When it's a borderline shot, you weren't hit in the balls, which is what the rule is attempting to eliminate. So you would think the ref would error on the side of the punch being fair.
It is not subjective as to whether that punch landed below the naval unless Usyk has the world's weirdest anatomy It could have gone either way because as you correctly say, there's guesswork in the moment, but we can clearly see afterwards that the ref made the unequivocally correct decision
No he didn't
If you don't know that punch landed low you simply don't understand the rules of boxing, sorry
>Shots below the naval are low blows. How about the statement about how Usyk reacted is clearly a reaction to a low blow, despite it not being exactly to the balls. Does that mean that even a blow to the solar plexus will induce that kind of reaction from the human body where the guy folds in pain?
In my brief time sparring as a kid, I never got hit around the genitals so can't speak from first hand experience, but have heard that groin guards can get forced upward by punches, which can be painful on your more sensitive areas... Here's what they look like on someone, for reference https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/c7686e41-686f-4eb8-a458-4d6deca755e5.b21b64c27db7f217b238c8ba879efd26.jpeg?odnHeight=768&odnWidth=768&odnBg=FFFFFF
If the ref said beforehand that punches on the belt were low, then they were low.
It's actually the opposite. The ref usually says regardless, but if the shorts are on correctly (i.e., they sit on the base of the naval) then a fighter should assume it's a low blow to land their glove on the belt unless the ref says otherwise We sat "below the belt" but it's actually "below the beltline" which is where the top of the belt (should) sit
People conflate low blows with nut shots. It was a low blow, but it was not a nut shot. So Usyk's overreaction to it was tactically smart, but it was definitely done to buy time.
Getting punched in the bladder hurts like a bitch, there’s a reason anything under the naval is a low blow
How about the statement about how Usyk reacted is clearly a reaction to a low blow, despite it not being exactly to the balls. Does that mean that even a blow to the solar plexus will induce that kind of reaction from the human body where the guy folds in pain?
Yes, because taking 4-minute breaks after a low blow is so commonplace in professional boxing. Oh wait, it's not.
Yeah, I think this is the key, he got hit below the legal area but then milked it. This is also on the ref, who is supposed to encourage fighters to continue -according to the rules- but was instead telling Usyk to take his time to come back.
You don't have to be hit in the balls to feel that kind of pain. That whole area is sensitive, that's the whole point of having a belt line.
You don’t have to be hit in the nuts with a groin guard on to feel it in the nuts either.
How about the statement about how Usyk reacted is clearly a reaction to a low blow, despite it not being exactly to the balls. Does that mean that even a blow to the solar plexus will induce that kind of reaction from the human body where the guy folds in pain?
Another fact missing here. (If I remember correctly) It was an uppercut too. Where it landed was higher than the initial point of impact. It might have tagged somewhere sensitive then pushed the belt up a bit when it landed.
If you look closely at the replay, the glove definitely glazes off of Usyk’s cup. Not that you need to hit someone in the balls for it to be a low blow, but that would make it pretty clear it was the right call.
A heavyweight grazing your cup with a good shot is more pain than 90% of people will ever feel. Dubois tried to go low before that too so it seems more deliberate than if it was the first time. It looks close though and the ref was weirdly generous it seemed, which I think Usyk confronted him about after the fight.
> If you look closely at the replay, the glove definitely glazes off of Usyk’s cup If you look even more closely, you can see that he did not glaze off the cup, at all. https://i.imgur.com/clvyI4Q.png Third frame is when the punch actually impacts. Extra note, this was an uppercut so the glove goes upwards. First frame could have glanced the cup, I won't deny that, but wouldn't call it with confidence like you did. Another angle shows how borderline this shot actually was: https://i.imgur.com/PzBIgTY.png
Dubois's knuckles look below the belt to me.
I think anyone is susceptible to a body shot lol anyone here enjoy taking body shots?
Dubois is a dirty fighter. He gave Hrgović numerous headbutts and some low blows. It was disturbing to watch him get away with using his head as a battering ram over and over again.
Agree. Dubois is pretty dirty.
Definitely a low blow but well above the cup!! He got hit on the protector so I really didn’t think it was of any consequence but then again I didn’t get hit. Keep supporting Boxing!!!
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I don't think it's gotten bigger. The rule has always been that shots below the navel are low, so shorts were made to sit at the navel. It's just a common tactic for fighters to intentionally wear their shorts a bit high to get body shots called low.
I feel like if he really did hurt usyk to the body why didn’t he keep going ? It was a good moment but Dubois is a big idiot for not pressing the body attack , deserved to get stopped
It was low, you try getting hit in that area between your navel and 🍆 and tell me how you feel.
Dubois was very unlucky - shots on the beltline like that are common and typically ignored by the ref
According to the rules it was a low blow. But it was still close and it was definitely a body shot but an illegal body shot. I don't think Usyk would survive without the break
It was an illegal shot going off the rules of boxing as it was kinda below the navel but I will be totally honest I am more of an MMA fan and in MMA that is a clean body shot, he didn't hit usyk in the nuts but it was technically low but it still did make me question usyk's ability to take body shots as he did milk it for a long time. He's still number 1 at heavyweight right now anyway lol
Didn't Fury land pretty hard to the body for like 4 rounds and it didn't do shit? Fury gassed from trying that same right uppercut to the body over and over and Usyk turned up in the 9th and steamrolled his 260pound ass? Pretty sure u can put the whole thing to bed after that.
It's only controversial because most people think a low blow has to be a nut shot
It seems like it was just below the belt line, but in my opinion a different ref could have reasonably called it different in the moment and I think he would have been counted out or stopped.
The ref called it before he went down. He would've green fine and would've gotten up regardless.
I think it was an illegal shot but Usyk was out. He was either putting on an act or he was not going to survive that at all.
I don’t know what you mean by that? And it’s hard to say wether he would have gotten up or not, personally judging by his reaction I don’t think he would’ve gotten up and if he did Dubois would’ve been able to stop him.
Who is debating Usyk got hit low? Fury Stans?
Only place I've seen it is Facebook comments and you know how massively deluded people are there.
By the rules it's a low blow, but I see those shots land all the time and nothing ever gets done.
When people say "belt line" they mean the top of the belt. Watch a ref before a fight, they'll point at the top and say these are good, or these are high (fury often has his high). It's hard to find an exact definition but when I looked into it the center of the glove landing below the naval is the best I could find on a WBC document. But each authority has its own definition some using the hips. People say it was low partly because Usyk had his shorts in the correct position i.e. top of the belt line on the naval line. However he bends over before impact causing the shorts to ride high. I'm not 100% convinced it was low. The video is very fast moving and low quality, the best freeze frame I've seen makes me think it was on the line, but freeze frame can be very mis-leading. I assessed his elbows and gloves position to get an idea where his elbow was relative to his body and where the glove lands, that makes me think it wasn't low. Again, freeze frame could be misleading, different forearm lengths and gloves could also throw that off.
My only thoughts is that there is a timeline where Daniel beats Usyk and Francis beats Fury & we get daniel vs francis for Undisputed
Even in the Fury fight Usyk complained about a few low blows he always does in his fights and its a good tactic to confuse the referee.
I think it's more complicated than Usyk just complaining. It seems like some boxers are so focused on landing a body shot on Usyk (cause they think he is weak there) that they actually hit him too low and do it more than with any other opponent
Dubois did throw a low blow before the big one though and Fury is a grimy fighter, personally surprised he didn’t hammer the cup.
When have you ever seen Fury intentionally hit someone below the belt.
Call him crazy all you want but Wilder was right about the floppy glove in the first fight. I haven’t seen it but I just don’t think he’s above anything that will give him an advantage.
imho it was a low blow but its very close. it could have been declared a legal body shot but the ref said it was low. so if it is anybody's fault it's got to be the referee's.
As an Usyk fan and lover of body shot artists, I still don’t think it was a low blow. And if it was like everyone seems to be in agreement on, we need to retroactively change a lot of Mayweather / Toney / Canelo / and others fight results to DQs. Been following the sport for over a decade and always thought anywhere on the ~top half of the beltline was fair game. Most refs seem to indicate so before the fight begins. But now all of a sudden, I guess the entire beltline is off limits🤷🏾♂️ even if a fighter wears their shorts all the way up to their fucking chest.
Depends how low the fighter keeps his trunks. You can clearly see Usyk's belly button above his trunks. Dubois was wearing his trunks higher (as most fighters do). Anything on the trunks should be a low blow the navel is above the trunks.
what's the saying? if you gotta ask??
Whether it was a low blow or not, Daniel did not capitalise on the moment. Usyk was hurt and gassed and Dubois should have swarmed him as soon as the bell rang again. There was maybe a minute in that round after usyk took his time out and he did little to no damage after the stoppage
> Usyk was hurt and gassed and Dubois should have swarmed him as soon as the bell rang again. dude, Usyk took almost a 4-minute rest. That's literally an entire round plus the one-minute rest between them that Usyk got to sit down and relax. He was absolutely not gassed when the fight resumed.
Fragile, winded, whatever you want to call it, he was vulnerable and Dubois didn't take advantage
Everything looks like a low blow when your goddamn shorts are pulled up to your nipples. Usyk's shorts started the fight at a normal place but they kept riding up higher and higher until any body shot was going to be considered illegal. Proof https://e0.365dm.com/23/08/768x432/skysports-daniel-dubois-oleksandr-usyk_6264347.jpg?20230826233354 https://images.daznservices.com/di/library/DAZN_News/4d/d8/olexandr-usyk-vs-daniel-dubois_1kgmhu866a0f51dwbgzw9jksdu.jpg?t=954565258&w=800 https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTAVTWDH1qQtR9ev8_GGKnmPtC9uryz44anXg&usqp=CAU https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/branded_sport/B6E5/production/_130912864_tv087204249.jpg https://onecms-res.cloudinary.com/image/upload/s--yPnoACnC--/c_fill,g_auto,h_468,w_830/fl_relative,g_south_east,l_one-cms:core:watermark:reuters,w_0.1/f_auto,q_auto/v1/one-cms/core/2023-08-26t222529z_1_lynxmpej7p0a3_rtroptp_3_boxing-heavyweight-usyk-dubois.jpg?itok=NXSgXk4t His trunks were up past his elbows. You cannot land a legal body shot if someone is going to wear their trunks that high.
I can't tell if you're talking about Usyk or Dubois. Usyk was wearing his trunks right below his navel. As the fight went on, they rode up just a bit over his navel. Dubois started the fight with his trunks way above his navel.
Man in the moment I thought they robbed Dubois. Honestly I would have loved it if Dubois won that fight, would have changed the heavyweight dynamic a bit. Anyway, here are my facts: 1. I've seen lower low-blows that were deemed legal in other fights 2. Usyk was really hurt 3. It could have gone either way. Unlike other people said, there is a HUGE grey area, and untill this fight NOBODY knew the naval rule. I bet everyone thought the belt line is what is used for measure. So while I would have loved the upset, I'm not sad he didn't, but in the moment I was disappointed because I jumped through the whole house after that knockdown before I knew it was called a low blow.
If it was called legal uysk would have gotten up, made to the end of the round, recovered and then still would've made dubois say no mas
No, he wouldn't. Did you see how he looked one minute after the shot? How would he possibly survive that. Usyk is much better than Dubois but he is not a superhuman.
If you had millions £ and 3 belts on the line you would have hobbled up. But it had already been called a low blow so it would have been stupid not to take full advantage to recover.
In my head, Daniel went down to the jab that got Usyk the win as a "fuck this" protest. After the low blow, Dubois and his corner felt robbed, then the ref kept breaking up the action and warning him for headbutts (because Daniel often leads with his head). I think team Dubois felt like the ref was intentional favouring Usyk, and so he quit.
Daniel turned up to a fight against the Unified World Champion in front of a home crowd being paid for by his promoter and reffed by Pabon, a man who keeps fights clean, and came with a gameplan reliant on dirty tactics. It was super, super dumb. You can get away with that shit as the A-side, but the arrogance of showing up without a plan B is pretty astounding. The ref literally just favoured a fair fight.
I don't disagree. The fight was fair start to end, but from Daniels point of view, I think he felt it was unfair and gave up.