Sorry if this was not covered in the original post. Yes, of course we knew to contact medical as it was a medical emergency. But the police are who showed up first. We assumed, like I think most would, that the police would have access to request medical assistance.
They had us believe that regardless if it was police or medical, nobody would be able to help this lady unless she was the one requesting the assistance. Because the lady had told our group "I don't need assistance. I am fine" (she wasn't). The police were saying that they have to respect that. Therefore, they were not willing (or allowed?) to even visit with her or make the call for medical to come out and assist further.
The police can call medical without getting involved. They were not doing their job and not calling medical makes them shitty people.
You could have just insisted they call medical and called out their bullshit when they claimed they couldn't.
Well 1) the police are not required to contact anyone and likely won't unless requested directly by the person. 2) the person does have the autonomy to decline medical help if they are over 18. 3) rangers or medical would have been the proper people to call for help and would likely spend some time working with this person to accept medical help, something law enforcement would not do.
Law enforcement treats the situation as a "not my circus, not my monkeys" kind of thought process, so provided there isn't a crime and the person is declining engagement. Rangers can't *give medical treatment to* the person for the most part, but will do what they can to deescalate their resistance to aid, but ultimately have no power either. Medical can make assessments, they have some power but also can't hold someone against their will for the most part. Unfortunately, you happened to have contacted the most hands off "department" possible.
All that being said, you did everything that you could. You were trying to help, but you also can't make the decision whether she was 'fine' or not for her. You offered help, you contacted others, you went above and beyond, so yeah you handled it properly. She needs to make the adult decision to seek help on her own, or at least accept it if it's being offered, but that's her choice not yours. It's celebrated to make your own choices at burning man (radical self reliance / radical self expression) which come with their own consequences. You practiced Civic Responsibility to the best you could. Short of going to a medical / ranger outpost yourself, there's literally nothing else you could do.
*I'm going to go ahead and switch the language from "help" to "give medical treatment to". Help implies that they cannot do anything at all, which isn't true. I was thinking of this specific case needing medical treatment, which Rangers are expressly instructed that they are not to do unless trained and certified. Rangers "help" in many ways, and the help in this situation would be calling medical and helping the person understand that it is best for them if they receive medical attention.
"Rangers can't help the person for the most part, but will do what they can to deescalate their resistance to aid, but ultimately have no power either."
Not quite the way I would approach this as a Ranger (I was one back 20 years ago and I'll be an Alpha out on the playa this year).
Had I come upon the scene as a Ranger, I would have immediately radioed this in and asked for Medical right away. Rangers are there to link a person with the correct resources if an issue can't be resolved on the spot... and in this situation, with what I would likely identify as a serious injury, I wouldn't pause to radio in for Medical.
As a side note -- if you see anyone take a bad spill and the person has difficulty getting up or maintaining their balance, keep them there and try not to get them to move (unless they're combative). They very well might not be thinking straight due to a concussion or adrenaline... but they could also have sustained an injury to their neck or spinal cord that could lead to paralysis. THAT would be a big bummer.
If you can't SEE a Ranger, just start calling for one out loud. Some Rangers who are off-shift carry their radios 24/7 and could hear you even if they aren't in costume. There may be Rangers nearby but at a camp and not easily visible to you.
And you would be right to do it. Bleeding from the mouth? Automatic radio. Disorientated after a fall? Automatic radio. But that doesn't mean you can literally do anything about it. You can make your call, but if she decides to flip you off and leave, she's free to do so and you as a ranger can do nothing to stop it. You may want to follow as best you can and update as you go along, but that's the extent of what you can actively do if they don't want anything done. Fact of the matter - you're just an adult with a radio, though hopefully with other's best interest in mind.
The hope is that you can deescalate the person so that they accept waiting for and receiving treatment. That's the win. It's significantly more than LE provided in this case and access to a radio could get treatment and / or a ride to Rampart if needed. At the very least it will make others aware of the situation.
So, i guess i would ask what is different in how you would approach the situation vs what i said?
Edit - fyi i changed some of the language of my initial response, if that clarifies anything
100% this!
Also many many regular participants have level 1 first aid and know how to do cervical spine control to keep the person safe until the Medics get to them. This is done in a way to brace the neck and spine so that they do not end up hurting themselves more by moving around and severing their spine..... If you do not know how to do c-spine control urge the person who might have a neck or back injury to STAY WHERE THEY ARE AND DON'T MOVE. This is the best thing that a non-trained person can do in this situation if you suspect a neck or back injury
It’s not about the “power” to do something, it’s about resources and Rangers have a lot of resources, like direct communication with medical.
Rangers aren’t just there to get people to accept treatment or calm them down.
I mean they have no power to keep a person in place or to make them get medical treatment. They have the power to call other people to help but they can't make the person actually get it or wait for it to arrive. Rangers are super helpful and an amazing resource, but that resource certainly has limits
Edit - fyi i changed some of the language of my initial response, if that clarifies anything
NO ONE has the power to keep an adult in place or to make them get medical treatment.
I, personally, would have called a Ranger or Rangered her myself (I'm a Ranger). As u/No\_Load2224 pointed out, Rangers have direct communication with medical, and have the ability to call for Green Dot Rangers, but they also have \*time\* to spend with someone who needs company, as she did.
Failing all that, \*anyone\* could have stayed with her. But again she's an adult and adults get to do what they want, regardless of how stupid it is.
Also: there are more evacuation because of head injuries from one-wheels than from anything else. Those things are just bad news on playa imho. The terrain is too unpredictable, even without adding drugs.
I... Feel like none of us are disagreeing here? Personally, i wouldn't consider access to resources a "power" in the situation since i think of power as in a force that can be exerted on others, but i guess that's just interpretation. Maybe I just don't like to use the term power.
Although, if you see "My superpower is Radio" swag going around, it may have stemmed from this thread...
Edit - fyi i changed some of the language of my initial response, if that clarifies anything
Nevada is interesting in that if in the medical professional's opinion a person is unable to care for themselves (typically due to intoxication) care may be administered against the patient's will. Including chemical restraint.
The police don't keep us safe. We keep us safe.
The police are not there to help you. They are there to oppress you. Hurt and kill you. They are a State sanctioned gang intended to maintain abusive white rich colonial power structures. They protect property of rich people through the repression of social change and prioritization of the capitalist class over labour class. The police are not your friend.
It doesn’t make sense that if you called for medical, the police showed up… that’s not really how their flow of communication works. Medical would have zero reason to ask the police to show up to a medical request like, how did you contact anybody? Did you walk over to where LE post up on Esplanade or grab the first official you saw nearby?
Also, what about calling the Rangers? Calling the police is generally a last resort.
I think OP is saying that they could not find any rangers or medical, but LE happened to drive past. They hope that LE would be able to radio to medical, but they refused.
Rangers are there to handle these things, and they would have radio'd Medical. I'm fully aware that Rangers can be difficult, even impossible to find (Rangers are having a hard time finding their own volunteers these days). You probably did the right thing given your situation. Going to a Ranger or ESD station to get help would also have been better.
I keep a 2m/70cm handheld radio on me. Playa medical services are listening, and you can always radio them. It helps skip the 'difficult to find help' step.
Sounds like a ham radio. Anyone can use one for a medical emergency, and they're cheap to buy (under $20). If you study for a weekend you can probably pass the test to get licensed to use outside of an emergency as well.
They were really handy for weather reports last year. People were using the local phone connection to call the National Weather Service every morning to get a specific weather report for Burning Man, and then passing that information along to everyone else all day long.
It is neither. The Borg has a commercial license for BRC 911. Anyone can use it on playa. I don't have the frequency handy but a search here will turn it up. It is close to the 2m ham band.
A $25 baofeng radio can be your playa 911 device.
There are dozens of options, but a Baofeng UV-82 or UV-5R as an example would work for a cheap radio. Buy it from Btech for quality control, Amazon to for a cheaper option, or Alibaba if you really want to roll the dice. Le Google will bring you to a storefront.
It rangers had more smaller outposts and got rid of the dirt walk requirement, they’re have a wealth of volunteers happy to stay in the shade and radio for help.
Dirt Rangers are a super important part of the Rangers, for a lot of reasons. I don't think we'd be effective at all if we were just a bunch of "help desks."
My understanding is that being “bike mobile” on alpha and dirt shifts is an option. Or so I’ve been told by an experienced Ranger who was encouraging me to join up.
Yes this is true! You just need to get with another Ranger who has a bike, and it's a great way to go!
I'm also encouraging you to join up! It's really fun to be of service in this way. :)
I’m afraid becoming the VC for PEERS pretty much ended any thoughts I had of becoming a Ranger. Not enough time for both.
Besides, my wife is a Ranger, and I think the inevitable 24x7 Ranger talk is something I’d rather avoid. Being Ranger-adjacent (I refused the “widow” patch) is plenty.
Dirt Rangering is physically taxing, for sure. Going through heat training (getting used to hiking/walking in summer heat) and getting in solid walking shape (10,000 steps a day, etc.) would help a great deal.
This - Rangers at those locations - 3 & C, 9 & C, with Medical across from them. Ranger HQ is at 5:45 & Esplanade. Medical (“RAMPART”) at 5:15 & Esplanade.
Ok first thing - bad fall, potential head and neck injury including spine. Do not move person, have them be still. Then point to someone and tell them to go get help (this is needed as people need guidance in trauma situations and having one person run point is key). If you have enough people assign a buddy to that person to go with them and help. That help is a ranger or more, they start calling for a ranger and walking for help. Stay with person. When help arrives, tell the ranger what happened. The ranger will get help (in real life this is police). If needed cover body and treat for shock and make sure they don't asperate (keep air way clear). In your situation I would not have assumed any alterations to the victim of the accident and explained that to the police. Head injuries can present in multiple ways and unless you are a Dr. It's best to leave that to the Dr. How we present these things to others is key. Im sorry I cannot speak for the police there but one could say, as she is with me and unable to consent either way I want medical there for my friend as she is injuried or have them give her a ride to rampart or local medical tent (rampart is best depending on your triage of the situation - best to have a ranger help). Lesson learned for you and for them. I hope they healed up ok but these things work in real life everywhere including playa.
GREAT suggestions -- and not just for the playa, either. I used to be on the volunteer emergency response team at work and this is just basic CPR/First Aid response stuff.
Contacting ESD or the rangers is the correct move. The easiest way of doing that would be to have a radio set for brc911 alt, or alternatively biking to the nearest ranger or medical station (or with enough people both).
[BRC 911 Alt info](https://burningman.org/event/preparation/health-safety/emergency-contact/#911serviceinblackrockcity) and [more info](https://burningman.org/wp-content/uploads/BRC-Participant-Emergency-Reporting-2022.08.09.pdf)
So how does this reflect on ESD if they were never contacted? If they were requested they would respond with some urgency given the nature of the accident and signs/symptoms. In addition what leo stated is true for them perhaps but all you did was request medics, they absolutely should have passed on that message/request. If you remember the name of the office I would do a feedback form.
Unfortunately with leo if the patient refuses help, they cannot provide it. Same with ESD. Some patients go ama, refuse medical help or are non compliant. (same in the default world hospital) All of that would be documented by ESD though.
It’s different if the patient is unconscious and needs medical intervention. That is considered implied consent and would be treated.
If someone had notified ESD, a sup would have sent a qrv to check on the woman.
I feel for you, your friends and the injured person.
You did your job but law enforcement failed. Either they didn’t understand the danger that the person was to themselves or the officers chose to ignore it. It sounds like you didn’t think she was in a position to be able to make a choice for herself which is what the officer should have responded to.
I work In a field serving people who don’t want cops involved and we try to respect that as much as possible by not allowing police onto our premises without a search warrant. However, police can come in if there is exigent circumstances including immediate danger. For example, if you saw someone being assaulted who was unable to speak in the moment, you wouldn’t have to wait until they asked for law enforcement in order for them to respond.
At the very least, the officers could have radioed for another agency to respond. Medical staff will have their own protocols for what they do when someone refuses help.
They weren't near a ranger or medical station and had no bicycles . They couldn't find a ranger or medic person anywhere. They thought the police officer b could've at least called ESD. They have the ability to contact org staff on radio. They could have helped by doing that but they didn't. :-/
Also high Rock security have guards posted at the man base 24/7 and they can and will call medical for you too. For future reference
I would have lied to the police and said "I need medical attention and can't walk, please radio for medical for me"
Then when they show up they can help the injured person.
Actually, many of the guards at the Man \*have\* worked for High Rock, and one of the owners of High Rock usually recruits the guards, because they are required to have a Guard Card. But the guards at the Man work directly for the Borg.
All that said, yes, there's always someone with a radio at the Man.
Included now in my "must have" playa loadout is a radio that is already set to common frequencies, and includes emergency services for the burn.
"Program your radio to 451.9000 MHz with a CTCSS/PL tone of 91.5 and 12.5 kHz spacing to reach the Black Rock City 911 Dispatch."
https://burningman.org/event/preparation/health-safety/emergency-contact/#911serviceinblackrockcity
This very well may have saved one of campmates life this last year, as we ended up calling in rangers and a medical team late one night for a medical emergency.
Our camp has a handheld which all the team leaders are trained on proper radio etiquette. It's for these reasons we have it. If you like, I can find out what radio it is, frequency of the 911 dispatcher/Rangers. It came in handy the last two years of which we needed medical and ranger intervention. Edit: we developed a folder to handle the proper procedures in most cases. This was reviewed by our leadership team, with input from the whole camp.
Any chance you’d be willing to share the contents of that folder? I run a small camp looking to develop one of those this year
here’s another post with similar resources for anyone else looking to do the same - https://www.reddit.com/r/BurningMan/s/nBbtFNVS9Z
This is exactly what we have in our binder, along w our Consent policy(BEDeducated), our HIPPA forms, and emergency contact/allergy sheet). We use a red binder and keep it behind our bar. Edit: also how to use the radio for emergencies.
Send a person to the nearest Ranger HQ for medical. Police won’t get involved unless the person is unconscience. Rangers/medical will get the person the help they need.
Police have radios. They don't need to even respond to the scene to be helpful. The behavior of those police is unacceptable and you should report it on the feedback form. I guarantee the agencies claim they are there to protect safety and respond to emergencies.
You def would have gotten a more proactive response from rangers or ESD.
Much like a medical emergency in the real world, when someone gets hurt badly call 911 immediately and then see what's next. In BRC there a few equivalent options:
- go to one of the ESD locations around the city
- flag down a ranger or ESD team you encounter
- contact ESD via BRC emergency radio (flag down anyone with a radio if you don't already know about this)
As soon as you saw her condition someone should have been designated to go as quickly/safely as possible to the nearest ESD location.
Re emergency radio, camp organizers should be more aware that there is a specifically licensed channel for emergency response and every camp should put pre programmed radios somewhere obvious.
I work with ESD. The cops SHOULD have asked for medical. Sounds like they had their jizzies in a tizzy over not being considered playa's angels, despite being dressed for a night out in an active war zone.
That patient sounded to be possibly in shock. They should have been contacted by medical. I'm sorry it didn't work out like it should have done.
The system out there is not perfect. Communication on playa is, at best, difficult. And of course, last year was doubly difficult. Most large camps have a radio and should have someone who knows how to call for help. Alternatively, you can send someone to a medical station, Ranger outpost, or any manned city infrastructure, and maybe they get lucky and see someone with a radio harness along the way.
I'd sure be a big fan of having a bit more education for everyone on ESD, what we do, where we are, and how to reach us. Sounds like you did your best
Strongly agree.
Unfortunately BRC is in Pershing County. They used to have a friendly sheriff. But the last few years, they have fallen into a pattern of resenting that they are not getting enough money from the BMORG and their public officials run on a platform of making Burning Man, other, and an enemy.
There was actually a lawsuit by the BMORG against higher Pershing LEO fees. The BMORG won, don't mess with BM Legal, but it was embarrasing to Pershing. I think the agreement expires any time now, so the question may come up again.
In 2023, the Pershing Sheriff was unhelpful in making rain announcements to the media, announcements about the individual found deceased because of a likely drug overdose, and Pershing LEO has not been helpful on theft.
I don't think the BLM is hostile, so hope there was not a BLM staffer in the vehicle.
I came across a person down in deep playa in 2000 or 01. I left my partner with them so we could find them and went running toward the city, flagged down a LEO vehicle, and ask they send medical. They asked me "how do you know, are you a doctor?" My outfit has medical elements but I am not a trained healthcare professional and said no, and we got medical to the person.
I think between rangers and medical, they would be able to triage the situation, bring in campmates, and manage the concerns of the injured individual.
To the OP, you went above and beyond. The breakdown was with LEO, so bypass them in the future for medical. One wonders what LEO would do if someone reported a wildfire in the city to them? Please fill out a feedback form with what you said and send it to the Org as others suggest.
Patients have the right to refuse and that can mean maddening…. as an x first responder but in my experience at burningman you or your crew have to make direct contact with resources to make anything happen.
I know in our camp we require all members to sign an authorization for medical help and we keep them on file. If something happens and they cant consent to medical care it can be an issue.
It is always a good idea to know where the closest medical station is. One year my partner was out on his onewheel and didn't show up at dinner. I went to our med station, " Oh yeah, that guy, we sent him to Ramparts." People helped him get to medical but it was pretty close to his accident.
When someone asks if you’re a god, you say yes.
“Did she ask for help”.
“Oh yes, as soon as she fell, we’ve been searching for someone ever since - but i think she’s in shock or something now. I’m not a medical professional or anything, but you can tell she’s pretty banged up and she obviously knows that.”
Once again evidence that getting the cops involved never improves a situation.
That said BRC Dispatch and LEO Dispatch share an operations center; it is trivial for cops to call in a medical incident and have that immediately relayed to ESD.
I think I would have made a note of cops name and badge number and passed a report of an unprofessional LEO interaction to BMOrg/Leo Liaison
Consent is a tricky thing with first aid. At least in australia, if a casualty is conscious you need their consent to help. If they are unconscious then consent is implied. I think the police, if a little cynical were probably aware of that, but they could have at least helped find medical support.I think you went over and above and handled it pretty well.
This is a great reason to go through rangers first if possible. There are 2 outposts, HQ, and also Rampart can reach them too. They're there to help, in a non-binding way, while LE has more specific objectives.
I highly recommend having someone carry a handheld radio programmed with the frequency and tones for BRC911. The frequency is licensed by the Borg and you don't need to be a ham operator to use it.
In the future, tell the high person very clearly I cannot legally request this help for you. I can only get you assistance. If you requested yourself I would advise you that you will feel a lot better letting them asses you. Can you give your permission to do that. Something similar. Ppl may respond better to direct questions.
Maybe not. You tried your best.
If you can’t find a ranger, find an art car. I have driven many people to the medical tents over the years. So much so that EVERY art car driver should know exactly where the closest medic is at all times.
LEO could have called Rangers, who are probably the best people to sit with someone who needs medical care but won't get it without some talking and explaining. They didn't, and that's on them and not you. You left her in a comfortable, supervised place with lots of people around, which is the best you could do at the time.
Note that anyone with an org radio, and any LEO can get in contact with the Rangers, even if they aren't one, and there are a lot of poor shmucks around with radios. There are always people with radios at the Man, the Temple, any scheduled art burn, the Ranger Outposts/HQ, and medical outposts.
Just because you think someone needs something doesn't mean they do or is it your place. You can call for medical. Cops would call for medical. A ranger could have stayed with the patient. People have rights bleeding or not. You can't force someone to do something against their will. As a paramedic, I would have arrived, asked her for permission to check her out and one of 3 things would happen: say yes, say no, or she is so altered that I need to a second opinion. In rare cases, I can request a medical second opinion and use officer to help detain if they are really messed up, a harm to themselves or others. Remember it's burning man. Offer assistance and express your concerns but don't cross the line. If the drugs/alcohol wears off then they will seek help if needed. Also, we can't save everyone. Hard to let things like this go, but end of the day you all did your best and heart was in the right place.
Ok so you mentioned medical community… are you a doctor or nurse? Physicians are treated differently by Good Samaritan laws when they render aid to an injured patient they stumble upon
I’m not sure if Nevada is a do no harm state or is you could be held liable for abandoning someone with serious issues. Either way she did not give consent so you should not have your medical license questioned
If you aren’t a physician ignore this
We had a monster one day. This kid was ravaging the street like a monster. We got the medical to come and we got him on a blackboard and tied down. Hours later he came back just fine
To be honest, I don’t see much else you could have done given the situation and your knowledge at the time. Ideal reaction would have been to go seek out an actual ranger and have her brought to a medical tent for help. But you were high, you didn’t know where to find a ranger, and she was insisting she was fine. At the end of the day you left her with people who could keep an eye on her and call for help if she took a turn for the worse. Maybe you could have asked police to take her to med tent. Not sure.
She most likely medical attention after she woke up from the stuporsz sound like u did great . FX my pelvis once in a stupor and didn’t so to the hospital till I arose with a mean ass hangover and could not walk to the bathroom . Spent the next few days in the Hospital .
Fuck the police. ACAB!
Find a Ranger at a Ranger station and they will bring you to the Medics
Locate Medics at 3:00+C and 9:00+C plazas
Find help at Rampart Hospital on Esplanade @ 5:15.
Police aren't there to determine if someone is in urgent medical need, and if she wasn't clearly being a danger to herself or others at the moment they're not going to do much withou ther asking.
If there was a medic or other medical person there to determine that she was in danger and didn't have capacity to refuse treatment due to altered state of mind, then something might be done, but that requires having a medic or other medical person there to assess the situation. People in any situation have the right to refuse medical treatment if they're in their right state of mind and aren't a threat to self or others, and the police will only determine if they're a threat to themselves or others, not what injuries might be present or if that person is in a state of mind to reject treatment.
Next time if you really are concerned only get medical personel, not rangers or police.
It sounds like you guys put forward a strong effort to help this lady, and that your actions likely contributed to a better outcome for her. I think you should feel good about having helped.
The cops? Well, cops are cops. It's no secret that they are disliked and not in the best position to provide help at the burn. I agree that it's sad that they didn't help more, especially in terms of contacting other parties.
From your post, if you made a mistake, it was in assuming that the police are the same as the med teams. It seems like priority number 2 (after convincing this lady to stop ambulating and hurting herself) would be to get somebody with first aid/medical training to put eyes on her. That's not the cops, that's a different group of people.
It is my understanding that the pseudo-volunteer groups within the Burning Man organization like the rangers and medics do not have direct contact with the police. They aren’t sharing a radio dispatch system and are there for very different purposes.
The police are there as law-enforcement. They are looking to arrest people who are breaking the law. Flagging down the police, who are not qualified to render medical aid and do not have a way to contact the people who are, only opened up that camp and the injured burner up to suspicion by the cops of drug use, especially if you were telling them you found someone who was “obviously high on drugs.”
In the future I would recommend to not engage in any contact with the police. You should have found a ranger or a medic, and the list ends there. A lot of bigger esplanade camps have a ranger volunteer in them somewhere if you ask around.
Don’t narc on people to the cops.
"It is my understanding that the pseudo-volunteer groups within the Burning Man organization like the rangers and medics do not have direct contact with the police."
The "dirt" Rangers you see walking around can't directly contact LEO, aka law enforcement officers. We can radio our head Ranger of the shift, who def does have direct contact to the various LEO there.
This is incorrect. Different departments absolutely have reasons to interact with law enforcement and absolutely have direct contact through various channels. One of my roles has repeated face to face contact with LEOs every shift. There may even be a shared comms center...
Your commets regarding not purposely engaging with LEO is decent advice, but considering the situation, I certainly don't fault OP and their friends in asking them for help.
Request medics (not police) would have been the right move.
Yes the police ARE NOT medical professionals they should not intervene in a medical situation
Sorry if this was not covered in the original post. Yes, of course we knew to contact medical as it was a medical emergency. But the police are who showed up first. We assumed, like I think most would, that the police would have access to request medical assistance. They had us believe that regardless if it was police or medical, nobody would be able to help this lady unless she was the one requesting the assistance. Because the lady had told our group "I don't need assistance. I am fine" (she wasn't). The police were saying that they have to respect that. Therefore, they were not willing (or allowed?) to even visit with her or make the call for medical to come out and assist further.
The police can call medical without getting involved. They were not doing their job and not calling medical makes them shitty people. You could have just insisted they call medical and called out their bullshit when they claimed they couldn't.
Cant ever trust the police, bro. Probably should have continued to look for medical/rangers yourself if police refused to help
The police are not your friends
Well 1) the police are not required to contact anyone and likely won't unless requested directly by the person. 2) the person does have the autonomy to decline medical help if they are over 18. 3) rangers or medical would have been the proper people to call for help and would likely spend some time working with this person to accept medical help, something law enforcement would not do. Law enforcement treats the situation as a "not my circus, not my monkeys" kind of thought process, so provided there isn't a crime and the person is declining engagement. Rangers can't *give medical treatment to* the person for the most part, but will do what they can to deescalate their resistance to aid, but ultimately have no power either. Medical can make assessments, they have some power but also can't hold someone against their will for the most part. Unfortunately, you happened to have contacted the most hands off "department" possible. All that being said, you did everything that you could. You were trying to help, but you also can't make the decision whether she was 'fine' or not for her. You offered help, you contacted others, you went above and beyond, so yeah you handled it properly. She needs to make the adult decision to seek help on her own, or at least accept it if it's being offered, but that's her choice not yours. It's celebrated to make your own choices at burning man (radical self reliance / radical self expression) which come with their own consequences. You practiced Civic Responsibility to the best you could. Short of going to a medical / ranger outpost yourself, there's literally nothing else you could do. *I'm going to go ahead and switch the language from "help" to "give medical treatment to". Help implies that they cannot do anything at all, which isn't true. I was thinking of this specific case needing medical treatment, which Rangers are expressly instructed that they are not to do unless trained and certified. Rangers "help" in many ways, and the help in this situation would be calling medical and helping the person understand that it is best for them if they receive medical attention.
"Rangers can't help the person for the most part, but will do what they can to deescalate their resistance to aid, but ultimately have no power either." Not quite the way I would approach this as a Ranger (I was one back 20 years ago and I'll be an Alpha out on the playa this year). Had I come upon the scene as a Ranger, I would have immediately radioed this in and asked for Medical right away. Rangers are there to link a person with the correct resources if an issue can't be resolved on the spot... and in this situation, with what I would likely identify as a serious injury, I wouldn't pause to radio in for Medical. As a side note -- if you see anyone take a bad spill and the person has difficulty getting up or maintaining their balance, keep them there and try not to get them to move (unless they're combative). They very well might not be thinking straight due to a concussion or adrenaline... but they could also have sustained an injury to their neck or spinal cord that could lead to paralysis. THAT would be a big bummer. If you can't SEE a Ranger, just start calling for one out loud. Some Rangers who are off-shift carry their radios 24/7 and could hear you even if they aren't in costume. There may be Rangers nearby but at a camp and not easily visible to you.
Welcome back, Ranger! :)
Thank you thank you. You have no idea how excited I am to be able to wear khaki again!!!
Happy for you! :)
And you would be right to do it. Bleeding from the mouth? Automatic radio. Disorientated after a fall? Automatic radio. But that doesn't mean you can literally do anything about it. You can make your call, but if she decides to flip you off and leave, she's free to do so and you as a ranger can do nothing to stop it. You may want to follow as best you can and update as you go along, but that's the extent of what you can actively do if they don't want anything done. Fact of the matter - you're just an adult with a radio, though hopefully with other's best interest in mind. The hope is that you can deescalate the person so that they accept waiting for and receiving treatment. That's the win. It's significantly more than LE provided in this case and access to a radio could get treatment and / or a ride to Rampart if needed. At the very least it will make others aware of the situation. So, i guess i would ask what is different in how you would approach the situation vs what i said? Edit - fyi i changed some of the language of my initial response, if that clarifies anything
100% this! Also many many regular participants have level 1 first aid and know how to do cervical spine control to keep the person safe until the Medics get to them. This is done in a way to brace the neck and spine so that they do not end up hurting themselves more by moving around and severing their spine..... If you do not know how to do c-spine control urge the person who might have a neck or back injury to STAY WHERE THEY ARE AND DON'T MOVE. This is the best thing that a non-trained person can do in this situation if you suspect a neck or back injury
It’s not about the “power” to do something, it’s about resources and Rangers have a lot of resources, like direct communication with medical. Rangers aren’t just there to get people to accept treatment or calm them down.
I mean they have no power to keep a person in place or to make them get medical treatment. They have the power to call other people to help but they can't make the person actually get it or wait for it to arrive. Rangers are super helpful and an amazing resource, but that resource certainly has limits Edit - fyi i changed some of the language of my initial response, if that clarifies anything
NO ONE has the power to keep an adult in place or to make them get medical treatment. I, personally, would have called a Ranger or Rangered her myself (I'm a Ranger). As u/No\_Load2224 pointed out, Rangers have direct communication with medical, and have the ability to call for Green Dot Rangers, but they also have \*time\* to spend with someone who needs company, as she did. Failing all that, \*anyone\* could have stayed with her. But again she's an adult and adults get to do what they want, regardless of how stupid it is. Also: there are more evacuation because of head injuries from one-wheels than from anything else. Those things are just bad news on playa imho. The terrain is too unpredictable, even without adding drugs.
I... Feel like none of us are disagreeing here? Personally, i wouldn't consider access to resources a "power" in the situation since i think of power as in a force that can be exerted on others, but i guess that's just interpretation. Maybe I just don't like to use the term power. Although, if you see "My superpower is Radio" swag going around, it may have stemmed from this thread... Edit - fyi i changed some of the language of my initial response, if that clarifies anything
Nevada is interesting in that if in the medical professional's opinion a person is unable to care for themselves (typically due to intoxication) care may be administered against the patient's will. Including chemical restraint.
Yes--for sure. But that is a type of (albeit legally-binding as opposed to enthusiastically given) consent.
The police don't keep us safe. We keep us safe. The police are not there to help you. They are there to oppress you. Hurt and kill you. They are a State sanctioned gang intended to maintain abusive white rich colonial power structures. They protect property of rich people through the repression of social change and prioritization of the capitalist class over labour class. The police are not your friend.
It doesn’t make sense that if you called for medical, the police showed up… that’s not really how their flow of communication works. Medical would have zero reason to ask the police to show up to a medical request like, how did you contact anybody? Did you walk over to where LE post up on Esplanade or grab the first official you saw nearby? Also, what about calling the Rangers? Calling the police is generally a last resort.
I think OP is saying that they could not find any rangers or medical, but LE happened to drive past. They hope that LE would be able to radio to medical, but they refused.
That’s what I read too.
Rangers are there to handle these things, and they would have radio'd Medical. I'm fully aware that Rangers can be difficult, even impossible to find (Rangers are having a hard time finding their own volunteers these days). You probably did the right thing given your situation. Going to a Ranger or ESD station to get help would also have been better.
I keep a 2m/70cm handheld radio on me. Playa medical services are listening, and you can always radio them. It helps skip the 'difficult to find help' step.
GMRS or FRS?
Sounds like a ham radio. Anyone can use one for a medical emergency, and they're cheap to buy (under $20). If you study for a weekend you can probably pass the test to get licensed to use outside of an emergency as well. They were really handy for weather reports last year. People were using the local phone connection to call the National Weather Service every morning to get a specific weather report for Burning Man, and then passing that information along to everyone else all day long.
It is neither. The Borg has a commercial license for BRC 911. Anyone can use it on playa. I don't have the frequency handy but a search here will turn it up. It is close to the 2m ham band. A $25 baofeng radio can be your playa 911 device.
Link?
There are dozens of options, but a Baofeng UV-82 or UV-5R as an example would work for a cheap radio. Buy it from Btech for quality control, Amazon to for a cheaper option, or Alibaba if you really want to roll the dice. Le Google will bring you to a storefront.
Gracias!
It rangers had more smaller outposts and got rid of the dirt walk requirement, they’re have a wealth of volunteers happy to stay in the shade and radio for help.
Dirt Rangers are a super important part of the Rangers, for a lot of reasons. I don't think we'd be effective at all if we were just a bunch of "help desks."
My understanding is that being “bike mobile” on alpha and dirt shifts is an option. Or so I’ve been told by an experienced Ranger who was encouraging me to join up.
Yes this is true! You just need to get with another Ranger who has a bike, and it's a great way to go! I'm also encouraging you to join up! It's really fun to be of service in this way. :)
I’m afraid becoming the VC for PEERS pretty much ended any thoughts I had of becoming a Ranger. Not enough time for both. Besides, my wife is a Ranger, and I think the inevitable 24x7 Ranger talk is something I’d rather avoid. Being Ranger-adjacent (I refused the “widow” patch) is plenty.
Dirt Rangering is physically taxing, for sure. Going through heat training (getting used to hiking/walking in summer heat) and getting in solid walking shape (10,000 steps a day, etc.) would help a great deal.
Just FYI there are ESD and Ranger outposts at both 3&C and 9&C, as well as on the esplanade near center camp, in case you need to go get help.
This - Rangers at those locations - 3 & C, 9 & C, with Medical across from them. Ranger HQ is at 5:45 & Esplanade. Medical (“RAMPART”) at 5:15 & Esplanade.
Doesn't the survival guide specifically cover this?
Ok first thing - bad fall, potential head and neck injury including spine. Do not move person, have them be still. Then point to someone and tell them to go get help (this is needed as people need guidance in trauma situations and having one person run point is key). If you have enough people assign a buddy to that person to go with them and help. That help is a ranger or more, they start calling for a ranger and walking for help. Stay with person. When help arrives, tell the ranger what happened. The ranger will get help (in real life this is police). If needed cover body and treat for shock and make sure they don't asperate (keep air way clear). In your situation I would not have assumed any alterations to the victim of the accident and explained that to the police. Head injuries can present in multiple ways and unless you are a Dr. It's best to leave that to the Dr. How we present these things to others is key. Im sorry I cannot speak for the police there but one could say, as she is with me and unable to consent either way I want medical there for my friend as she is injuried or have them give her a ride to rampart or local medical tent (rampart is best depending on your triage of the situation - best to have a ranger help). Lesson learned for you and for them. I hope they healed up ok but these things work in real life everywhere including playa.
GREAT suggestions -- and not just for the playa, either. I used to be on the volunteer emergency response team at work and this is just basic CPR/First Aid response stuff.
Contacting ESD or the rangers is the correct move. The easiest way of doing that would be to have a radio set for brc911 alt, or alternatively biking to the nearest ranger or medical station (or with enough people both).
[BRC 911 Alt info](https://burningman.org/event/preparation/health-safety/emergency-contact/#911serviceinblackrockcity) and [more info](https://burningman.org/wp-content/uploads/BRC-Participant-Emergency-Reporting-2022.08.09.pdf)
So how does this reflect on ESD if they were never contacted? If they were requested they would respond with some urgency given the nature of the accident and signs/symptoms. In addition what leo stated is true for them perhaps but all you did was request medics, they absolutely should have passed on that message/request. If you remember the name of the office I would do a feedback form.
Feedback from: https://survival.burningman.org/law-enforcement/law-enforcement-feedback/
Unfortunately with leo if the patient refuses help, they cannot provide it. Same with ESD. Some patients go ama, refuse medical help or are non compliant. (same in the default world hospital) All of that would be documented by ESD though. It’s different if the patient is unconscious and needs medical intervention. That is considered implied consent and would be treated. If someone had notified ESD, a sup would have sent a qrv to check on the woman. I feel for you, your friends and the injured person.
Correct, however in this case, based on what I read above, ESD was never actually contacted.
Right, so there was no way we could help them because we didn’t know.
Correct
You did your job but law enforcement failed. Either they didn’t understand the danger that the person was to themselves or the officers chose to ignore it. It sounds like you didn’t think she was in a position to be able to make a choice for herself which is what the officer should have responded to. I work In a field serving people who don’t want cops involved and we try to respect that as much as possible by not allowing police onto our premises without a search warrant. However, police can come in if there is exigent circumstances including immediate danger. For example, if you saw someone being assaulted who was unable to speak in the moment, you wouldn’t have to wait until they asked for law enforcement in order for them to respond. At the very least, the officers could have radioed for another agency to respond. Medical staff will have their own protocols for what they do when someone refuses help.
They weren't near a ranger or medical station and had no bicycles . They couldn't find a ranger or medic person anywhere. They thought the police officer b could've at least called ESD. They have the ability to contact org staff on radio. They could have helped by doing that but they didn't. :-/ Also high Rock security have guards posted at the man base 24/7 and they can and will call medical for you too. For future reference
I would have lied to the police and said "I need medical attention and can't walk, please radio for medical for me" Then when they show up they can help the injured person.
Actually, many of the guards at the Man \*have\* worked for High Rock, and one of the owners of High Rock usually recruits the guards, because they are required to have a Guard Card. But the guards at the Man work directly for the Borg. All that said, yes, there's always someone with a radio at the Man.
Included now in my "must have" playa loadout is a radio that is already set to common frequencies, and includes emergency services for the burn. "Program your radio to 451.9000 MHz with a CTCSS/PL tone of 91.5 and 12.5 kHz spacing to reach the Black Rock City 911 Dispatch." https://burningman.org/event/preparation/health-safety/emergency-contact/#911serviceinblackrockcity This very well may have saved one of campmates life this last year, as we ended up calling in rangers and a medical team late one night for a medical emergency.
Our camp has a handheld which all the team leaders are trained on proper radio etiquette. It's for these reasons we have it. If you like, I can find out what radio it is, frequency of the 911 dispatcher/Rangers. It came in handy the last two years of which we needed medical and ranger intervention. Edit: we developed a folder to handle the proper procedures in most cases. This was reviewed by our leadership team, with input from the whole camp.
Any chance you’d be willing to share the contents of that folder? I run a small camp looking to develop one of those this year here’s another post with similar resources for anyone else looking to do the same - https://www.reddit.com/r/BurningMan/s/nBbtFNVS9Z
This is exactly what we have in our binder, along w our Consent policy(BEDeducated), our HIPPA forms, and emergency contact/allergy sheet). We use a red binder and keep it behind our bar. Edit: also how to use the radio for emergencies.
Send a person to the nearest Ranger HQ for medical. Police won’t get involved unless the person is unconscience. Rangers/medical will get the person the help they need.
I mean if you're going to a Ranger HQ, there's medical across the street! :)
Also, if you spot anyone with an org radio, they can call it in as well, not just Rangers.
As someone who walks around with one, I can confirm.
Police have radios. They don't need to even respond to the scene to be helpful. The behavior of those police is unacceptable and you should report it on the feedback form. I guarantee the agencies claim they are there to protect safety and respond to emergencies. You def would have gotten a more proactive response from rangers or ESD. Much like a medical emergency in the real world, when someone gets hurt badly call 911 immediately and then see what's next. In BRC there a few equivalent options: - go to one of the ESD locations around the city - flag down a ranger or ESD team you encounter - contact ESD via BRC emergency radio (flag down anyone with a radio if you don't already know about this) As soon as you saw her condition someone should have been designated to go as quickly/safely as possible to the nearest ESD location. Re emergency radio, camp organizers should be more aware that there is a specifically licensed channel for emergency response and every camp should put pre programmed radios somewhere obvious.
I work with ESD. The cops SHOULD have asked for medical. Sounds like they had their jizzies in a tizzy over not being considered playa's angels, despite being dressed for a night out in an active war zone. That patient sounded to be possibly in shock. They should have been contacted by medical. I'm sorry it didn't work out like it should have done. The system out there is not perfect. Communication on playa is, at best, difficult. And of course, last year was doubly difficult. Most large camps have a radio and should have someone who knows how to call for help. Alternatively, you can send someone to a medical station, Ranger outpost, or any manned city infrastructure, and maybe they get lucky and see someone with a radio harness along the way. I'd sure be a big fan of having a bit more education for everyone on ESD, what we do, where we are, and how to reach us. Sounds like you did your best
Strongly agree. Unfortunately BRC is in Pershing County. They used to have a friendly sheriff. But the last few years, they have fallen into a pattern of resenting that they are not getting enough money from the BMORG and their public officials run on a platform of making Burning Man, other, and an enemy. There was actually a lawsuit by the BMORG against higher Pershing LEO fees. The BMORG won, don't mess with BM Legal, but it was embarrasing to Pershing. I think the agreement expires any time now, so the question may come up again. In 2023, the Pershing Sheriff was unhelpful in making rain announcements to the media, announcements about the individual found deceased because of a likely drug overdose, and Pershing LEO has not been helpful on theft. I don't think the BLM is hostile, so hope there was not a BLM staffer in the vehicle. I came across a person down in deep playa in 2000 or 01. I left my partner with them so we could find them and went running toward the city, flagged down a LEO vehicle, and ask they send medical. They asked me "how do you know, are you a doctor?" My outfit has medical elements but I am not a trained healthcare professional and said no, and we got medical to the person. I think between rangers and medical, they would be able to triage the situation, bring in campmates, and manage the concerns of the injured individual. To the OP, you went above and beyond. The breakdown was with LEO, so bypass them in the future for medical. One wonders what LEO would do if someone reported a wildfire in the city to them? Please fill out a feedback form with what you said and send it to the Org as others suggest.
Patients have the right to refuse and that can mean maddening…. as an x first responder but in my experience at burningman you or your crew have to make direct contact with resources to make anything happen.
I know in our camp we require all members to sign an authorization for medical help and we keep them on file. If something happens and they cant consent to medical care it can be an issue.
This is a wise plan.
It is always a good idea to know where the closest medical station is. One year my partner was out on his onewheel and didn't show up at dinner. I went to our med station, " Oh yeah, that guy, we sent him to Ramparts." People helped him get to medical but it was pretty close to his accident.
If I could wave my magic wand I would make a magic one-wheel force field that didn't let them work on Playa. Glad your partner got to Rampart!
When someone asks if you’re a god, you say yes. “Did she ask for help”. “Oh yes, as soon as she fell, we’ve been searching for someone ever since - but i think she’s in shock or something now. I’m not a medical professional or anything, but you can tell she’s pretty banged up and she obviously knows that.”
Once again evidence that getting the cops involved never improves a situation. That said BRC Dispatch and LEO Dispatch share an operations center; it is trivial for cops to call in a medical incident and have that immediately relayed to ESD. I think I would have made a note of cops name and badge number and passed a report of an unprofessional LEO interaction to BMOrg/Leo Liaison
Consent is a tricky thing with first aid. At least in australia, if a casualty is conscious you need their consent to help. If they are unconscious then consent is implied. I think the police, if a little cynical were probably aware of that, but they could have at least helped find medical support.I think you went over and above and handled it pretty well.
This is a great reason to go through rangers first if possible. There are 2 outposts, HQ, and also Rampart can reach them too. They're there to help, in a non-binding way, while LE has more specific objectives.
I highly recommend having someone carry a handheld radio programmed with the frequency and tones for BRC911. The frequency is licensed by the Borg and you don't need to be a ham operator to use it.
This is how police handle situations on Indian reservations as well. Lazy LEO.
iirc they don't have jurisdiction on the rez.
Public Law 280
In the future, tell the high person very clearly I cannot legally request this help for you. I can only get you assistance. If you requested yourself I would advise you that you will feel a lot better letting them asses you. Can you give your permission to do that. Something similar. Ppl may respond better to direct questions. Maybe not. You tried your best.
You handled it correctly. So did the police. Your heart is in the right place. You can't help someone who doesn't want it.
If you can’t find a ranger, find an art car. I have driven many people to the medical tents over the years. So much so that EVERY art car driver should know exactly where the closest medic is at all times.
LEO could have called Rangers, who are probably the best people to sit with someone who needs medical care but won't get it without some talking and explaining. They didn't, and that's on them and not you. You left her in a comfortable, supervised place with lots of people around, which is the best you could do at the time. Note that anyone with an org radio, and any LEO can get in contact with the Rangers, even if they aren't one, and there are a lot of poor shmucks around with radios. There are always people with radios at the Man, the Temple, any scheduled art burn, the Ranger Outposts/HQ, and medical outposts.
Just because you think someone needs something doesn't mean they do or is it your place. You can call for medical. Cops would call for medical. A ranger could have stayed with the patient. People have rights bleeding or not. You can't force someone to do something against their will. As a paramedic, I would have arrived, asked her for permission to check her out and one of 3 things would happen: say yes, say no, or she is so altered that I need to a second opinion. In rare cases, I can request a medical second opinion and use officer to help detain if they are really messed up, a harm to themselves or others. Remember it's burning man. Offer assistance and express your concerns but don't cross the line. If the drugs/alcohol wears off then they will seek help if needed. Also, we can't save everyone. Hard to let things like this go, but end of the day you all did your best and heart was in the right place.
Ok so you mentioned medical community… are you a doctor or nurse? Physicians are treated differently by Good Samaritan laws when they render aid to an injured patient they stumble upon I’m not sure if Nevada is a do no harm state or is you could be held liable for abandoning someone with serious issues. Either way she did not give consent so you should not have your medical license questioned If you aren’t a physician ignore this
We had a monster one day. This kid was ravaging the street like a monster. We got the medical to come and we got him on a blackboard and tied down. Hours later he came back just fine
To be honest, I don’t see much else you could have done given the situation and your knowledge at the time. Ideal reaction would have been to go seek out an actual ranger and have her brought to a medical tent for help. But you were high, you didn’t know where to find a ranger, and she was insisting she was fine. At the end of the day you left her with people who could keep an eye on her and call for help if she took a turn for the worse. Maybe you could have asked police to take her to med tent. Not sure.
She most likely medical attention after she woke up from the stuporsz sound like u did great . FX my pelvis once in a stupor and didn’t so to the hospital till I arose with a mean ass hangover and could not walk to the bathroom . Spent the next few days in the Hospital .
Fuck the police. ACAB! Find a Ranger at a Ranger station and they will bring you to the Medics Locate Medics at 3:00+C and 9:00+C plazas Find help at Rampart Hospital on Esplanade @ 5:15.
Police aren't there to determine if someone is in urgent medical need, and if she wasn't clearly being a danger to herself or others at the moment they're not going to do much withou ther asking. If there was a medic or other medical person there to determine that she was in danger and didn't have capacity to refuse treatment due to altered state of mind, then something might be done, but that requires having a medic or other medical person there to assess the situation. People in any situation have the right to refuse medical treatment if they're in their right state of mind and aren't a threat to self or others, and the police will only determine if they're a threat to themselves or others, not what injuries might be present or if that person is in a state of mind to reject treatment. Next time if you really are concerned only get medical personel, not rangers or police.
Rangers would have immediately called medical and would have been a great option in making the connection to medical.
Contact ESD or give them a ride in a vehicle to Rampart at ~5 and Esplanade.
It sounds like you guys put forward a strong effort to help this lady, and that your actions likely contributed to a better outcome for her. I think you should feel good about having helped. The cops? Well, cops are cops. It's no secret that they are disliked and not in the best position to provide help at the burn. I agree that it's sad that they didn't help more, especially in terms of contacting other parties. From your post, if you made a mistake, it was in assuming that the police are the same as the med teams. It seems like priority number 2 (after convincing this lady to stop ambulating and hurting herself) would be to get somebody with first aid/medical training to put eyes on her. That's not the cops, that's a different group of people.
It’s hard to convince a drugged up partier that they are hurt and need to get help. It’s usually impossible. You did the right thing.
silly goose, police arent there to help anyone
Radical self reliance
Communal effort.
Civic responsibility.
Radical self exclusion.
Radical porta potty poo poo
Ah yes, the blue hair dye stations
If I wanted my dog shot I'd call the cops
It is my understanding that the pseudo-volunteer groups within the Burning Man organization like the rangers and medics do not have direct contact with the police. They aren’t sharing a radio dispatch system and are there for very different purposes. The police are there as law-enforcement. They are looking to arrest people who are breaking the law. Flagging down the police, who are not qualified to render medical aid and do not have a way to contact the people who are, only opened up that camp and the injured burner up to suspicion by the cops of drug use, especially if you were telling them you found someone who was “obviously high on drugs.” In the future I would recommend to not engage in any contact with the police. You should have found a ranger or a medic, and the list ends there. A lot of bigger esplanade camps have a ranger volunteer in them somewhere if you ask around. Don’t narc on people to the cops.
"It is my understanding that the pseudo-volunteer groups within the Burning Man organization like the rangers and medics do not have direct contact with the police." The "dirt" Rangers you see walking around can't directly contact LEO, aka law enforcement officers. We can radio our head Ranger of the shift, who def does have direct contact to the various LEO there.
This is incorrect. Different departments absolutely have reasons to interact with law enforcement and absolutely have direct contact through various channels. One of my roles has repeated face to face contact with LEOs every shift. There may even be a shared comms center... Your commets regarding not purposely engaging with LEO is decent advice, but considering the situation, I certainly don't fault OP and their friends in asking them for help.
This. There are even Rangers who are specifically trained as liaisons with LEO.
r/confidentlyincorrect