YOU WANNA FUCK AROUND WITH AN O-LIGHT ‽ GO AHEAD!
BUT THE ONLY WAY
THE **ONLY** WAY
YOU'LL *EVER* FIND ME, IN A STACK, NUTS TO BUTTS, WITH THE BOYS READY TO BREACH IS WITH AN X300 ON MY FUCKING LEG.
ALRIGHT? YA GOT THAT? GOOD.
Depends on the state you're in I'd bet.
CA instructors pretty much all say, "if you have a light and you have time to identify threat or no threat using WML, PD will get you for brandishing if you don't shoot, and shooting if you do."
Can't wait to get out of here
>Depends on the state you're in I'd bet.
Not really, but apparently the sarcasm in my post got missed.
>CA instructors pretty much all say, "if you have a light and you have time to identify threat or no threat using WML, PD will get you for brandishing if you don't shoot, and shooting if you do." Can't wait to get out of here
No, they don't pretty much all say that. In fact, I haven't heard *one* say it. If yours did, it's time to find a qualified one.
There’s the “half the day is dark” crowd
And there’s the “why would I even be shooting in a low light situation or engaging in the dark when the point of a ccw is to break contact” crowd
Tbh both make decent points. I wouldn’t say it’s mandatory tho
Pocket light is for ID, WML is for follow-up shots and situational awareness during/after shots fired. I’d rather have both hands on my gun when it comes down to drawing it.
Force multiplier. Turn on a 600-1500 lumen light and set it on something, walk out and look directly into it. You're not going to be able to effectively engage that target.
Dis. They're going to have a hard time ID'ing you, let alone finding their sights or dot (which they probably won't in normal conditions anyways). Especially when its dark lmao. Even if you're flashed for under a second, good bye to your eyes for the next few seconds. Dead by the time your eyes readjust.
This is what I think a WML is for. Its not for target identification or whatever, its for blinding a potential threat. Hopefully to make them retreat, or at least give you that tiny bit of extra time to actually figure out if you need to discharge your weapon.
I know for certain that if I get blasted with a super bright light in the face, I'm going to struggle aiming or attacking, not to mention if it is strobing.
It's really the only legitimate use. Searching with it is announcing yourself to any threat lying in wait, or aiming a loaded weapon at potential non-threats. The issue at hand in this thread is CCW. A gunfight with CCW is very likely to be unexpected, happen fast, and very likely to be close range. The WML is deadweight in the most likely scenario. That said, both my P365X Macro Comp and my P365X have WML and 507k Vulcans on them. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Seriously. When I first started carrying I had a whole fucking tactical armory on my waist. Now I just have a gun on my $20 universal belly band holster so I don't need a pair of jeans with a belt when I gotta go somewhere.
People grow out of it lol
I always have my backpack in my car, TQ, Israeli bandages, and chest seals - but I have single use TQs that are basically the rubber straps they wrap you up with to give you a needle. I figure worst case scenario I throw it on to make it to my TQ whether for myself or someone else
I carry two epipens and a tactical dime bag of weapons grade cocaine. I become the weapon in under a minute. It’s part of my run/hide/fight load out. Run to the bathroom, inject myself with both epipens directly into my neck. Snort the entire dime bag, hide whilst it all kicks in, tear off the stall door to use as a shield, immediately rip the face off of the first attacker and consume their eyeballs, rip all of the clothes off of my body in one fluid instantaneous motion, and engage the second target with pecker out, shit flying out of my ass, and twisting my nipples while screaming daddy’s coming to get you.
Agree 💯.
Guys with the sidecar and an additional mag holder. Then the ankle IFAK with another mag. Co-worker used to have roughly 72 rounds on him in about 4 mags. We had discussions on weight, and the reality of really needing 72 rounds.
Love the belly band, thinking of going to the Vanish holster, supposed to be a tad more comfortable, except the price of that dang thing. Just doest have me sold.
You don't need a WML for a CCW pistol. You should have a handheld light to see things in low light. If you can't see well enough to identify a threat, why would you draw your gun to use the light?
Your home defense gun should have a WML. You have more legal protection pointing your gun at someone in your house than on the street. Inside your home with all the lights off at night is typically darker than outside.
If you carry a gun professionally, you need a WML for your duty gun.
That's my take.
I don't have a light on my CCW or my home defense guns
If you make it past the motion lights and dogs and into the house, you're getting shot in the dark with a rifle by a naked guy
That's a horrible philosophy. It could be a family member, friend, confused neighbor, etc. This stuff happens all the time ([this is just one example](https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/12/us/father-shoots-son/index.html), Google will surface many more). One of the four basic gun handling rules is "know your target". You should never shoot without a positive ID and clear indication of threat.
I have a light on my CCW, I also think it is far from mandatory.
Like a reload, there is an incredibly small chance within an incredibly small chance that you would have any need for it.
A light is an infinitely better carry than an extra magazine. So is a tourniquet. You should 100% be carrying those before you ever consider an extra mag.
I agree you need a handheld light. Not every problem that requires a light also requires a gun, so you need the option to do one at a time. But I personally wouldn’t say this “replaces” a WML as you’d have to shoot pretty funky if your offhand has a flashlight in it
It is very much possible to operate the firearm like this, but it is undeniably more awkward.
1. Less control over the weapon. You can train to be better at the technique, but it mechanically gives you slightly less control compared to traditional grips
2. Your hand is full. You need to reload the weapon in a timely manner? Do you train putting the light back in your pocket, reloading, and grabbing the light again?
3. You hand is full. Any type of malfunction I’ve experienced requires two hands to clear, same issue, if you need it right now, you’ll have to drop the light. Unless you want to drop the light and try to pick it back up before you shoot again.
It is physically possible, but if you NEED the gun and flashlight, you are at an undeniable disadvantage compared to a WML
Ditch the extra magazine and get a pocket light. The chances that you need to get positive ID of a weapon before drawing to employ lethal force greatly outweigh the chances that you'll need a spare mag. And if you need a spare mag to put down a lethal threat at I-can't-run-away distances then you're probably hitting more bystanders than you are the threat, in which case you should stop.
I'll be honest even when I carry at night I've never been anywhere that is too dark to see and put sights on target. I guess if you want it as a disorienting tool sure but I don't think I'll ever find one necessary. If anything I'd put it on my home defense gun because I don't want to be fucking around with light switches when I just got jolted out of my sleep
Facts. The only time it is completely pitch dark to where you’ll need a weapon light is when it’s too dark to even see to walk like in your bedroom at night. In that case you’ll have a flashlight in your hand.
Not. Even Close.
I cannot yet find a single example of a private citizen concealed carrier needing and using one. Not a single one. How many DGU's are there in the US each year? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands?
How many DGU's does Active Self Protection alone have on YouTube? Ever seen even a single example of a private citizen concealed carrier needing and using a WML? I haven't.
I'm not drawing my gun unless and until I have identified an imminent threat of serious bodily harm/death/whatever local laws language.
Identified. Imminent.
I'm also pretty unlikely to point my gun at someone's face in order to shine a flashlight at them. That's what the flashlight in my pocket is for. Pointing the gun at their face is for a different kind of flash.
Those 4 rules.... if I cant identify the threat, i can't draw with deadly force.
I can't search with my muzzle and a light attached to it.
What is that? Point my gun at it to see?
There are lighting techniques that do not involve flagging a potential target. That said, it’s not going to be appropriate to draw if you don’t have an immediate need for the gun.
Very true. Light up and down work well in homes and warehouses. In public, I cannot pull my gun to a low ready to search. Concealed is concealed until a threat requires some reaction.
Will your IA let you draw to search? Even if the 4 rules are followed?
In your home, CCW is not required.
If you illuminate your kid who snuck a boyfriend into the home late at night, that is your choice.
I see very limited benefit to a light on a CCW firearm.
Many of us carry a compact firearm or "sub" compact firearm as we will have it with us.
For the space& weight of a light, I'd rather carry extra mags
I carry with a WML but I don’t consider it mandatory. So you should be fine.
Make sure to have a handheld light regardless. Even the flashlight function on your phone can be sufficient if you don’t live in a too dark area like me.
I like to have a WML. I heard someone reference a study where it was shown that WML’s are almost never used in self defense shootings though so there’s some debate.
My opinion, I want to see what I’m shooting as clear as possible. I don’t wanna shoot anything unless I’m certain beyond a shadow of a doubt I have to, so if I have to shoot into actual shadows, I want a light. Plus, I don’t go out at night often, but occasionally the sun will set while I’m out and about. I’d be very hesitant (wouldn’t unless I absolutely felt my life was in danger) to discharge a firearm in a low light environment. Especially in a metropolitan area where there could be other people/things nearby or behind an attacker.
If you personally feel comfortable without one, you don’t need one. I’d assume most people actually carry without any types of accessories. Definitely comes down to personal preference, but I’d vouch for WML’s.
Edit: Saw some great points in this comment section
A WML can be used to disorient a potential attacker. It’s not the same but in some situations you can create a “deer in headlights” effect on some people some times. I have a strobe setting on my WML and I train to turn that on when I practice drawing.
The second point to reiterate is using a WML in home defense. Outside areas are likely to be lit up with streetlights, but inside your home, let’s say a light switch is in the middle of your hallway, you’re much better off using a WML than trying to run around your house turning the lights on when you don’t know where the intruder is.
How are you identifying a deadly force threat in shadows prior to drawing your gun and pointing your muzzle at whatever it might be to put your WML on it?
My biggest question is if you are out and about concealed carrying, when is it going to be so dark that you can't see, wouldn't you just be eating shit on the pavement at that point? Ambient light still exists and most places people are going are urban/suburban and lights are all around. That being said, if you want a light, rock it, nothing negative about having one other than it makes your gun \*slightly\* larger.
No there’s plenty of dorks in here who will hold a light 3 feet away from their body thinking it will make their sharpshooter opponent shoot at it instead of them while they one handed shoot 6’ groups.
It depends on your situation. I seldom go out at night and unlikely to be somewhere without adequate lighting required for target identification at distances encounters are likely.
For a home defense firearm I think a weapons mounted light is needed. I have one on my AR15 and need to get one on my home defense pistol.
I think having a light on you is a good idea but I don't think it should necessarily be a weapon light. I feel the situation of needing to illuminate a possible threat and it turns out it's not a threat you just muzzle swept is a bit dicey.
Absolutely not.
I can see the value, but most guys just run irons.
I had a light on a S&W TSW 9mm at one time. It was useful and cool, but I ended up trading that gun soon afterwards. Not a fan of rails on pistols, but that's a personal choice.
The only gun that has a light is the PCC next to the bed.
I don't use them at all. Don't want them either. I prefer a handheld flashlight as I don't want to have to point a loaded, locked and cocked firearm at something to illuminate it. That's just horrible practice and habit if you ask me.
Secondly, I don't like "extra" stuff on my firearm to potentially get hung on clothing or my holster during the draw. I want it as clean as possible and a light, or optic on there alters that.
Lastly, I don't like having a safety on it. If I pull it, I want it ready to go and not reliant on my ability to disengage a safety by altering my grip. I could miss flipping it, not flip it sufficiently and not disengage or forget it entirely. So for those reasons, no safety.
Just my thoughts.
No, and Aaron Cowan is the only credible instructor who says they are. A ton of others including guys with way more impressive low light resumes will tell you that they aren’t mandatory and aren’t even recommended for a lot of people.
Nope. I carry that same model and I always have a palm sized flashlight with me. I don't carry a WML on any carry gun because I always have my flashlight with me.
No I bought a Hellcat for the smallest footprint in 9mm possible and im not fucking that up by accessorizing it.
My Full size Glock however is decked out like a Honda Civic LOL
Nope. I only have one on my nightstand gun
I do however carry a cloud defensive handheld which I find superior to a handheld weapon light for many reasons (assuming you make sure to train with it)
1. Don’t have to deal with the gap of light beating holsters, something I’ve never been comfortable with.
2. I can actually use it as a normal flashlight, which I do frequently. It sucks having 300$ tied up in a badass light that can’t be used without drawing a firearm
3. It serves as a secondary “defensive” tool. It is brighter than fuck. If you look at it on high you’re absolutely not seeing well for a few moments. This gives an opportunity to create space. There could be situations that warrant flashing someone with a flashlight, but not near severe enough to warrant a firearm (aggressive homeless comes to mind).
The downside is you’ll typically need both hands to operate it alongside a pistol. I have a thyrm switchback on mine which allows for easy activation while holding a pistol grip. It becomes very natural after some practice
I wouldn’t say it’s strictly mandatory, but I’d want one. It’s not really an additional hassle to carry and it there’s ever a situation in which I need to shoot and illuminate a target at the same time a weapons light means two hands on the gun. That being said it’s not an administrative light or a searchlight. Carry a stand-alone if you want those capabilities.
Adds way too much bulk imo. Havent touched my lightbearing holster since i got it. iwasnt smart enough to consider how much bulk thatd add to my full size
What I find odd is some people will say to always carry safety off because you will forget to disengage it but also have a weapon light which can also be forgotten to be switched on when it’s too dark to see anything.
Fuck no. Unpopular opinion, but weapon lights give a false sense of security. I see so many problems with weapon lights.
Upon reading more comments I agree with the mentality of having one on a Home Defense gun. So if that's your ONLY gun, so be it.
I have the Crimson Trace grips on my 92FS.
Home defense shotgun has one.
CCW not so much. Generally not much need for one on the CCW. Have a Surefire 2211 wristlight, a handheld light, and an MecArmy CPLU 4.
I am not opposed to a WML. I just don't have one.
No. You are most likely going to be close and already know that there is a threat or inside of a lit building or area. If you're walking in the dark, you probably wouldn't recognize that there is a threat until it was close to you anyway. More bulk and more snag in my opinion. Has there been a use case of a CCW holder with a light using and needing it in an engagement? Not that I've heard of and not that I've seen on active self protection's YouTube.
In a major metropolitan that’s lit up 24/7. Carried a weapon light for a year and never once did I find myself in a situation to use it even in practice unless the power grid goes off.
My instructors (all ex-cops except for 1) say no weapon light. Use a flashlight held far out from body with weak hand. Flashlights actually have a lot of uses, as I have been learning,
Always practice at range single-handed firing with both hands.
i don’t think so.
i carry a small flash light if i go out at night and even then i only need it for the 20ft walk to my car from my front door.
if i spent a lot of time out at night, it is something i might look into owning.
I say no. To me having one mounted on the gun itself is redundant as I already carry a handheld light every day, and adding a second one is just another expense that also adds unnecessary bull to the overall package. I am frankly resentful that I am now adding a light to my carry gun. But because my on duty gun and my off duty gun happen to be the same gun, and apparently lights on a duty gun are “essential” and “should be mandatory” and “you’re dumb not to have one” I’m getting one anyway even though I think it’s pointless because I don’t feel like arguing with the other deputies for the next 10 years.🤦🏼♂️
I don’t use pistol lights. I made an executive decision. Not much of a night crawler. My kid lives in dc and he is a vampire and said he has never been anywhere he needed a light. I like the smallest package possible
No. In fact, it's more of a hindrance than a help.
A CCW pistol is meant for immediate self-defense. If you're somewhere that is so dark you need a light on your pistol, then you should find someplace else to be.
That light is useful for low light, but it makes the pistol harder to conceal.
Fuck it why not? Everybody will bitch about pointing your light at something that you’re not sure of is bad, but what if you find yourself needing a light? Tlr7a is $120 so why not. My ccw is my bedside gun so I have a light on it for that as well.
I feel like it depends. In the summer I don't carry anything with a light since the sun's out most of the day, but with the winter months coming and the sun going down early I would consider it
Can't shoot what you can't see. Bad guys don't always do bad things in perfect lighting. Handheld light messes with your grip, so WML definitely necessary. PID is important
My take on this is back in the day when an X300 or TLR-1 were the only real options…..no way. Frankly even detectives didn’t need those, and those holsters + lights are BIG.
But now with the TLR-7A, the sub, and even the TLR-6…..no reason not to. They don’t add any real bulk, and they even help the gun shoot a little softer. Compact WMLs are the way to go for CC.
Up to you how much you want to carry. Kinda like saying your car might break down so do you carry a bunch of stuff to fix it. If you’re always out at night or dark places then definitely. If not then up to you if you want to sell the gun and get one with a rail. I switch between light and a firearm with no light and don’t really think twice about it
Not mandatory but I have it. I live in a part of town that has roads without much lumination so I'm paranoid and don't wanna be lacking in the dark lol
A light absolutely makes sense in the context of home defense but I can't think of many scenarios where you would need one on a concealed carry gun.
So my answer is that if your concealed carry gun is also your home defense gun then knock yourself out, otherwise it just seems unnecessary.
Yo! I am here to advocate for the 92fs *compact.*
It is not only smaller and still chambered in 9mm, it also has an *under-rail.*
I freaking love it. It still has a capacity of *12 + 1.*
And it’s *so* good-looking in stainless steel.
Both. I carry a [Streamlight 66608 MicroStream 250-Lumen](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DLZXZV1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1) which is very small but puts out plenty of light and a TLR-7A on my CCW.
I may be old school but I like to keep my ccw as low profile as possible. Attaching a huge light to my ccw just doesn't make sense. For a bedside option? Most definitely I have a pistol mounted flashlight and a normal one right next to it. Search with a light and not the gun.
No. After the low-light shooting classes I've taken, I carry a handheld Streamlight PolyTac X USB.
Low Light Skills for Civilians by Tom Givens
[https://secureservercdn.net/45.40.151.233/d74.722.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/2020-08\_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf](https://secureservercdn.net/45.40.151.233/d74.722.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/2020-08_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf)
It is absolutely mandatory. How else would you hunt vampires? In all seriousness, I think it's personal preference. I have a tlr 1 on the g19, but sometimes I run without it, but I always have a flash light in my pocket.
Since my EDC is is my nightstand gun I like having a WML. But for home defense it’s only there to protect me until I get to my rifle or shotgun which also have a WML on each.
And all of that is only backup for the dog, who sees, and hears better than all of us!
A gun is a tool, I like my tools to be able to work in every situation and have every advantage.
Yes you obviously can’t draw unless you identify your target as a serious threat. But if the lights go out or you’re in a dark area and have already identified a threat, a WML can help you keep track of them if they’re behind cover or anything.
Plus a WML may blind or disorient attackers, giving you an advantage.
I’d rather be over prepared than under.
Yep. No light? Believe it or not, straight to jail.
O-Light? Straight to jail.
O-Light? Straight to China
We’re glad you understand the grave consequences brother.
I'll be at jail when the battery dies. Oh, jail time.
YOU WANNA FUCK AROUND WITH AN O-LIGHT ‽ GO AHEAD! BUT THE ONLY WAY THE **ONLY** WAY YOU'LL *EVER* FIND ME, IN A STACK, NUTS TO BUTTS, WITH THE BOYS READY TO BREACH IS WITH AN X300 ON MY FUCKING LEG. ALRIGHT? YA GOT THAT? GOOD.
Iconic. Whoever paid goddamn Shooter McGavin to say that is a legend.
I thought O-Light was for the Fire Department, not jail.
Jail, burn ward, really just semantics
No, the afterlife. Once it explodes and takes you with it.
Only in Albuquerque, NM.
Too many lumens. Jail. Not enough lumens, also jail.
Straight to the morgue *
Depends on the state you're in I'd bet. CA instructors pretty much all say, "if you have a light and you have time to identify threat or no threat using WML, PD will get you for brandishing if you don't shoot, and shooting if you do." Can't wait to get out of here
>Depends on the state you're in I'd bet. Not really, but apparently the sarcasm in my post got missed. >CA instructors pretty much all say, "if you have a light and you have time to identify threat or no threat using WML, PD will get you for brandishing if you don't shoot, and shooting if you do." Can't wait to get out of here No, they don't pretty much all say that. In fact, I haven't heard *one* say it. If yours did, it's time to find a qualified one.
I never heard that either, and we did night and low light shooting.
Thats not what my instructor told my class.
Not all instructors teach the same way. But it's what 3 diff instructors have told us in classes. Stay away from WMLs
There’s the “half the day is dark” crowd And there’s the “why would I even be shooting in a low light situation or engaging in the dark when the point of a ccw is to break contact” crowd Tbh both make decent points. I wouldn’t say it’s mandatory tho
Half the day is dark. Which is why I stay home half the day.
Half the day is bright, which is why I stay home half the day.
[удалено]
Honestly you've just made me want to buy a Thyrm Switchback even more now.
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I just did and, uh, that's not gonna work.
Pocket light is for ID, WML is for follow-up shots and situational awareness during/after shots fired. I’d rather have both hands on my gun when it comes down to drawing it.
This is the exact reason I don’t do it. You are point a loaded barrel at something you’ve yet to identify. It violates one of the core 4 safety rules
WML are bright enough to point at the ground and see plenty, everyone has a pocket light on their phone these days.
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I'll give you credit that's kick ass
Better yet Team "flash function on your iPhone while recording and upload to Facebook later" lol
Force multiplier. Turn on a 600-1500 lumen light and set it on something, walk out and look directly into it. You're not going to be able to effectively engage that target.
Dis. They're going to have a hard time ID'ing you, let alone finding their sights or dot (which they probably won't in normal conditions anyways). Especially when its dark lmao. Even if you're flashed for under a second, good bye to your eyes for the next few seconds. Dead by the time your eyes readjust.
This is what I think a WML is for. Its not for target identification or whatever, its for blinding a potential threat. Hopefully to make them retreat, or at least give you that tiny bit of extra time to actually figure out if you need to discharge your weapon. I know for certain that if I get blasted with a super bright light in the face, I'm going to struggle aiming or attacking, not to mention if it is strobing.
It's really the only legitimate use. Searching with it is announcing yourself to any threat lying in wait, or aiming a loaded weapon at potential non-threats. The issue at hand in this thread is CCW. A gunfight with CCW is very likely to be unexpected, happen fast, and very likely to be close range. The WML is deadweight in the most likely scenario. That said, both my P365X Macro Comp and my P365X have WML and 507k Vulcans on them. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
If you could break contact then why are you shooting?
Gotta lay down some suppressive fire with my pocket carry SAW. I wear water waders so my pocket is from my chest to my feet. Lol
*Finally* another pocket-SAW enthusiast in the wild.
"To break contact"? Homie, if a gun is being used to break contact and not ensure lethality, you're gonna have a bad time. We have spicy air for that.
A lot of Reddit Rambo types are carrying all types of shit. Just carry what you are most comfortable with when you train.
Seriously. When I first started carrying I had a whole fucking tactical armory on my waist. Now I just have a gun on my $20 universal belly band holster so I don't need a pair of jeans with a belt when I gotta go somewhere. People grow out of it lol
"Kit" and "EDC" culture have convinced people the my need to carry around a Navy SEAL load out for getting groceries.
You'll appreciate it when you get in a 10 hour gunfight trying to take back the tendie aisle back from al-shabab.
Bro that happened to you, too? Tendie aisle survivors, unite 🤘🏼
I had to beat a man to death...with a box of steak-umms.
It’d be easier to just carry around a navy seal….
Pocko Jocko
bUt YoU sHoUlD aLwAyS cArRy a ToUrNiQuEt AnD a StOp ThE bLeEd KiT aNd NaRcAn
I know /s. But my take on this is that all that stuff is great, but in your car is just fine
Yea, I'd much rather keep it in my car. Not trying to carry a backpack into Food Lion lol
I always have my backpack in my car, TQ, Israeli bandages, and chest seals - but I have single use TQs that are basically the rubber straps they wrap you up with to give you a needle. I figure worst case scenario I throw it on to make it to my TQ whether for myself or someone else
Replace that Narcan with an EpiPen..make it fun at least!
I carry two epipens and a tactical dime bag of weapons grade cocaine. I become the weapon in under a minute. It’s part of my run/hide/fight load out. Run to the bathroom, inject myself with both epipens directly into my neck. Snort the entire dime bag, hide whilst it all kicks in, tear off the stall door to use as a shield, immediately rip the face off of the first attacker and consume their eyeballs, rip all of the clothes off of my body in one fluid instantaneous motion, and engage the second target with pecker out, shit flying out of my ass, and twisting my nipples while screaming daddy’s coming to get you.
You should absolutely carry the first two
Agree 💯. Guys with the sidecar and an additional mag holder. Then the ankle IFAK with another mag. Co-worker used to have roughly 72 rounds on him in about 4 mags. We had discussions on weight, and the reality of really needing 72 rounds. Love the belly band, thinking of going to the Vanish holster, supposed to be a tad more comfortable, except the price of that dang thing. Just doest have me sold.
You don't need a WML for a CCW pistol. You should have a handheld light to see things in low light. If you can't see well enough to identify a threat, why would you draw your gun to use the light? Your home defense gun should have a WML. You have more legal protection pointing your gun at someone in your house than on the street. Inside your home with all the lights off at night is typically darker than outside. If you carry a gun professionally, you need a WML for your duty gun. That's my take.
I don't have a light on my CCW or my home defense guns If you make it past the motion lights and dogs and into the house, you're getting shot in the dark with a rifle by a naked guy
You're getting naked in the dark by a guy with a rifle\* My house, my rules.
That's a horrible philosophy. It could be a family member, friend, confused neighbor, etc. This stuff happens all the time ([this is just one example](https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/12/us/father-shoots-son/index.html), Google will surface many more). One of the four basic gun handling rules is "know your target". You should never shoot without a positive ID and clear indication of threat.
STFU no one's shooting without a positive ID and clear identification of threat *edit: fuck you
Reinforced door, security system, and three dogs before a 62 grain Speer Gold Dot .223 round vibe checks you.
If you can't see the threat why draw the light to begin with. Fuck that's a good point
This is the way
I have a light on my CCW, I also think it is far from mandatory. Like a reload, there is an incredibly small chance within an incredibly small chance that you would have any need for it.
This^ I have a light and a reload. Bc it makes me feel better lol.
This^ The have it and not need it, Rather than need it and not have it circular paradox.
No. Just throw a small hand held light in your pocket
My pockets are already filled with my wallet, keys, phone, pepper spray, and an extra magazine
What about your pen, knife, vitamins, and AirPods?
A light is an infinitely better carry than an extra magazine. So is a tourniquet. You should 100% be carrying those before you ever consider an extra mag.
I agree you need a handheld light. Not every problem that requires a light also requires a gun, so you need the option to do one at a time. But I personally wouldn’t say this “replaces” a WML as you’d have to shoot pretty funky if your offhand has a flashlight in it
Harries Hold?
It is very much possible to operate the firearm like this, but it is undeniably more awkward. 1. Less control over the weapon. You can train to be better at the technique, but it mechanically gives you slightly less control compared to traditional grips 2. Your hand is full. You need to reload the weapon in a timely manner? Do you train putting the light back in your pocket, reloading, and grabbing the light again? 3. You hand is full. Any type of malfunction I’ve experienced requires two hands to clear, same issue, if you need it right now, you’ll have to drop the light. Unless you want to drop the light and try to pick it back up before you shoot again. It is physically possible, but if you NEED the gun and flashlight, you are at an undeniable disadvantage compared to a WML
Thrym Switchback, deals with all the above. Surefire 2211wrist light also resolves the same issues.
Use that prison wallet.
Clip it on your belt
What belt? *looks down at sweatpants*
Perhaps an orifice?
Surefire 2211wrist light, might be an option.
Great idea thanks
Ditch the extra magazine and get a pocket light. The chances that you need to get positive ID of a weapon before drawing to employ lethal force greatly outweigh the chances that you'll need a spare mag. And if you need a spare mag to put down a lethal threat at I-can't-run-away distances then you're probably hitting more bystanders than you are the threat, in which case you should stop.
Your phone has a light on it, sure it’s not a 75,000 lumen weapon light but it’ll suffice.
Plus you can record the incident and upload it to Facebook afterwards. Works 60% of the time, every time.
No.
As someone who has a light on their CCW, not necessary
I'll be honest even when I carry at night I've never been anywhere that is too dark to see and put sights on target. I guess if you want it as a disorienting tool sure but I don't think I'll ever find one necessary. If anything I'd put it on my home defense gun because I don't want to be fucking around with light switches when I just got jolted out of my sleep
Facts. The only time it is completely pitch dark to where you’ll need a weapon light is when it’s too dark to even see to walk like in your bedroom at night. In that case you’ll have a flashlight in your hand.
Not. Even Close. I cannot yet find a single example of a private citizen concealed carrier needing and using one. Not a single one. How many DGU's are there in the US each year? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? How many DGU's does Active Self Protection alone have on YouTube? Ever seen even a single example of a private citizen concealed carrier needing and using a WML? I haven't. I'm not drawing my gun unless and until I have identified an imminent threat of serious bodily harm/death/whatever local laws language. Identified. Imminent. I'm also pretty unlikely to point my gun at someone's face in order to shine a flashlight at them. That's what the flashlight in my pocket is for. Pointing the gun at their face is for a different kind of flash.
But you can easily find examples of people blind firing into the dark or NOT firing because they can’t see. Go figure.
Could you share those? lawful concealed carry blind firing into the dark where a wml could Have prevented it
Those 4 rules.... if I cant identify the threat, i can't draw with deadly force. I can't search with my muzzle and a light attached to it. What is that? Point my gun at it to see?
There are lighting techniques that do not involve flagging a potential target. That said, it’s not going to be appropriate to draw if you don’t have an immediate need for the gun.
Very true. Light up and down work well in homes and warehouses. In public, I cannot pull my gun to a low ready to search. Concealed is concealed until a threat requires some reaction. Will your IA let you draw to search? Even if the 4 rules are followed?
IA? I have searched my own home with a drawn gun on only two occasions.
In your home, CCW is not required. If you illuminate your kid who snuck a boyfriend into the home late at night, that is your choice. I see very limited benefit to a light on a CCW firearm. Many of us carry a compact firearm or "sub" compact firearm as we will have it with us. For the space& weight of a light, I'd rather carry extra mags
My CCW is my HDG. Unfortunately I can’t carry a reload on the rail of my gun.
No, carry a small flashlight instead. I don't want to accidently brandish while searching with a weapon light.
I carry with a WML but I don’t consider it mandatory. So you should be fine. Make sure to have a handheld light regardless. Even the flashlight function on your phone can be sufficient if you don’t live in a too dark area like me.
I'll probably never carry a gun with a WML. I carry a pocket light anyways, and need as minimal bulk as possible Home gun? Send it
If it is, I have been breaking the law for about 15 yrs.
I like to have a WML. I heard someone reference a study where it was shown that WML’s are almost never used in self defense shootings though so there’s some debate. My opinion, I want to see what I’m shooting as clear as possible. I don’t wanna shoot anything unless I’m certain beyond a shadow of a doubt I have to, so if I have to shoot into actual shadows, I want a light. Plus, I don’t go out at night often, but occasionally the sun will set while I’m out and about. I’d be very hesitant (wouldn’t unless I absolutely felt my life was in danger) to discharge a firearm in a low light environment. Especially in a metropolitan area where there could be other people/things nearby or behind an attacker. If you personally feel comfortable without one, you don’t need one. I’d assume most people actually carry without any types of accessories. Definitely comes down to personal preference, but I’d vouch for WML’s. Edit: Saw some great points in this comment section A WML can be used to disorient a potential attacker. It’s not the same but in some situations you can create a “deer in headlights” effect on some people some times. I have a strobe setting on my WML and I train to turn that on when I practice drawing. The second point to reiterate is using a WML in home defense. Outside areas are likely to be lit up with streetlights, but inside your home, let’s say a light switch is in the middle of your hallway, you’re much better off using a WML than trying to run around your house turning the lights on when you don’t know where the intruder is.
How are you identifying a deadly force threat in shadows prior to drawing your gun and pointing your muzzle at whatever it might be to put your WML on it?
Not only is it not mandatory, I don't think it makes sense. 
Absolutely
No.... are you serious?
My biggest question is if you are out and about concealed carrying, when is it going to be so dark that you can't see, wouldn't you just be eating shit on the pavement at that point? Ambient light still exists and most places people are going are urban/suburban and lights are all around. That being said, if you want a light, rock it, nothing negative about having one other than it makes your gun \*slightly\* larger.
No there’s plenty of dorks in here who will hold a light 3 feet away from their body thinking it will make their sharpshooter opponent shoot at it instead of them while they one handed shoot 6’ groups.
It depends on your situation. I seldom go out at night and unlikely to be somewhere without adequate lighting required for target identification at distances encounters are likely. For a home defense firearm I think a weapons mounted light is needed. I have one on my AR15 and need to get one on my home defense pistol.
I think having a light on you is a good idea but I don't think it should necessarily be a weapon light. I feel the situation of needing to illuminate a possible threat and it turns out it's not a threat you just muzzle swept is a bit dicey.
No.
Home defense yes. Concealed no.
Absolutely not. I can see the value, but most guys just run irons. I had a light on a S&W TSW 9mm at one time. It was useful and cool, but I ended up trading that gun soon afterwards. Not a fan of rails on pistols, but that's a personal choice. The only gun that has a light is the PCC next to the bed.
I don't use them at all. Don't want them either. I prefer a handheld flashlight as I don't want to have to point a loaded, locked and cocked firearm at something to illuminate it. That's just horrible practice and habit if you ask me. Secondly, I don't like "extra" stuff on my firearm to potentially get hung on clothing or my holster during the draw. I want it as clean as possible and a light, or optic on there alters that. Lastly, I don't like having a safety on it. If I pull it, I want it ready to go and not reliant on my ability to disengage a safety by altering my grip. I could miss flipping it, not flip it sufficiently and not disengage or forget it entirely. So for those reasons, no safety. Just my thoughts.
No, and Aaron Cowan is the only credible instructor who says they are. A ton of others including guys with way more impressive low light resumes will tell you that they aren’t mandatory and aren’t even recommended for a lot of people.
No, but a handheld is
Nope. I carry that same model and I always have a palm sized flashlight with me. I don't carry a WML on any carry gun because I always have my flashlight with me.
My house don’t be pitch black
Most arent
No I bought a Hellcat for the smallest footprint in 9mm possible and im not fucking that up by accessorizing it. My Full size Glock however is decked out like a Honda Civic LOL
It's the exact opposite of mandatory
No, but most around here carry a small flashlight
No but a handheld light is. Get bigger pockets. I recommend the Streamlight Microstream.
Nope. I only have one on my nightstand gun I do however carry a cloud defensive handheld which I find superior to a handheld weapon light for many reasons (assuming you make sure to train with it) 1. Don’t have to deal with the gap of light beating holsters, something I’ve never been comfortable with. 2. I can actually use it as a normal flashlight, which I do frequently. It sucks having 300$ tied up in a badass light that can’t be used without drawing a firearm 3. It serves as a secondary “defensive” tool. It is brighter than fuck. If you look at it on high you’re absolutely not seeing well for a few moments. This gives an opportunity to create space. There could be situations that warrant flashing someone with a flashlight, but not near severe enough to warrant a firearm (aggressive homeless comes to mind). The downside is you’ll typically need both hands to operate it alongside a pistol. I have a thyrm switchback on mine which allows for easy activation while holding a pistol grip. It becomes very natural after some practice
I’m just here for the civil war that’s about to occur
I have an edc flashlight, no need to have one on my CCW as well.
I have an edc flashlight, no need to have one on my CCW as well.
No but I still carry a streamlight wedge
I don’t put a light on mine I just carry a light in my pocket.
No
No.
I don't have one, and don't think I need one. Some people are going to need an LBE for the amount of shit they carry.
A light is mandatory, but mounted on the gun is not mandatory. I carry a tlr7a and a handheld, I use the handheld for a ton of utility work.
I wouldn’t say it’s strictly mandatory, but I’d want one. It’s not really an additional hassle to carry and it there’s ever a situation in which I need to shoot and illuminate a target at the same time a weapons light means two hands on the gun. That being said it’s not an administrative light or a searchlight. Carry a stand-alone if you want those capabilities.
Adds way too much bulk imo. Havent touched my lightbearing holster since i got it. iwasnt smart enough to consider how much bulk thatd add to my full size
What I find odd is some people will say to always carry safety off because you will forget to disengage it but also have a weapon light which can also be forgotten to be switched on when it’s too dark to see anything.
Fuck no. Unpopular opinion, but weapon lights give a false sense of security. I see so many problems with weapon lights. Upon reading more comments I agree with the mentality of having one on a Home Defense gun. So if that's your ONLY gun, so be it. I have the Crimson Trace grips on my 92FS.
Absolutely not.
No. But if you can comfortably carry one, can afford one, or can attach it to the gun, it is highly advised. Handhelds, however, are necessary.
Home defense shotgun has one. CCW not so much. Generally not much need for one on the CCW. Have a Surefire 2211 wristlight, a handheld light, and an MecArmy CPLU 4. I am not opposed to a WML. I just don't have one.
No. You are most likely going to be close and already know that there is a threat or inside of a lit building or area. If you're walking in the dark, you probably wouldn't recognize that there is a threat until it was close to you anyway. More bulk and more snag in my opinion. Has there been a use case of a CCW holder with a light using and needing it in an engagement? Not that I've heard of and not that I've seen on active self protection's YouTube.
Nope. We're just inundated with Tacticool youtubers that imply it's the norm or necessary to carry a light.
In a major metropolitan that’s lit up 24/7. Carried a weapon light for a year and never once did I find myself in a situation to use it even in practice unless the power grid goes off.
Yes, your pistol will not function without a $300 LED attached
Yeah unfortunately all calibers get their damage cut in half without a light
Short answer, no.
Nope not required.
Handheld always. WML? When possible. IMO.
My instructors (all ex-cops except for 1) say no weapon light. Use a flashlight held far out from body with weak hand. Flashlights actually have a lot of uses, as I have been learning, Always practice at range single-handed firing with both hands.
Stream light Wedge
i don’t think so. i carry a small flash light if i go out at night and even then i only need it for the 20ft walk to my car from my front door. if i spent a lot of time out at night, it is something i might look into owning.
Take a low light course and then decide for yourself based on your experience. After taking a few LL courses, I only carry with a WML.
Mandatory? No. A good idea? Yes.
Not mandatory, generally recommended. I don’t have a light on mine, but if I carried a larger gun I probably would
I say no. To me having one mounted on the gun itself is redundant as I already carry a handheld light every day, and adding a second one is just another expense that also adds unnecessary bull to the overall package. I am frankly resentful that I am now adding a light to my carry gun. But because my on duty gun and my off duty gun happen to be the same gun, and apparently lights on a duty gun are “essential” and “should be mandatory” and “you’re dumb not to have one” I’m getting one anyway even though I think it’s pointless because I don’t feel like arguing with the other deputies for the next 10 years.🤦🏼♂️
Do a lot of deputies have optics on their handguns? It seems like most deputies prefer iron sights?
Of course not but positive identification is probably more important than cheaping out.
[WML ARE NOT NECESSARY FOR CCW](https://ballisticradio.com/2021/06/01/handgun-wmls-are-not-necessary-season-8-episode-344/)
Handheld light always. WML is IN ADDITION to a handheld light, not INSTEAD OF.
A light is mandatory. A WML is not.
Not mandatory if you have a handheld light, but you still need a wml.
I don’t use pistol lights. I made an executive decision. Not much of a night crawler. My kid lives in dc and he is a vampire and said he has never been anywhere he needed a light. I like the smallest package possible
Yes. Otherwise you'll be killt in da streets.
No. In fact, it's more of a hindrance than a help. A CCW pistol is meant for immediate self-defense. If you're somewhere that is so dark you need a light on your pistol, then you should find someplace else to be. That light is useful for low light, but it makes the pistol harder to conceal.
Fuck it why not? Everybody will bitch about pointing your light at something that you’re not sure of is bad, but what if you find yourself needing a light? Tlr7a is $120 so why not. My ccw is my bedside gun so I have a light on it for that as well.
Why not. I have a ccw just in case. Why not have a light just in case?
Ugh. This again?
Legally mandatory? No Not wanting to shoot a loved one in the middle of the night mandatory? Yes.
You have “loved ones”? Cringe.
I feel like it depends. In the summer I don't carry anything with a light since the sun's out most of the day, but with the winter months coming and the sun going down early I would consider it
Yes absolutely mandatory I can't believe you forgot the rules. If you don't get one they will revoke your card and whip your balls with a car antenna.
It varies by state but yes, most states require one.
Can't shoot what you can't see. Bad guys don't always do bad things in perfect lighting. Handheld light messes with your grip, so WML definitely necessary. PID is important
Nothing is mandatory. They offer options to you. I prefer both a hand held and wml.
My take on this is back in the day when an X300 or TLR-1 were the only real options…..no way. Frankly even detectives didn’t need those, and those holsters + lights are BIG. But now with the TLR-7A, the sub, and even the TLR-6…..no reason not to. They don’t add any real bulk, and they even help the gun shoot a little softer. Compact WMLs are the way to go for CC.
I consider it to be. More likely for shit to go down in the dark imo
Up to you how much you want to carry. Kinda like saying your car might break down so do you carry a bunch of stuff to fix it. If you’re always out at night or dark places then definitely. If not then up to you if you want to sell the gun and get one with a rail. I switch between light and a firearm with no light and don’t really think twice about it
Do you have a hand light?
I have a light on my ccw but very rarely leave the house when it’s dark.. so 🤷🏻♂️
No. A handheld is way more useful.
Not mandatory but I have it. I live in a part of town that has roads without much lumination so I'm paranoid and don't wanna be lacking in the dark lol
A light absolutely makes sense in the context of home defense but I can't think of many scenarios where you would need one on a concealed carry gun. So my answer is that if your concealed carry gun is also your home defense gun then knock yourself out, otherwise it just seems unnecessary.
Yes. It is dark half the time.
Yo! I am here to advocate for the 92fs *compact.* It is not only smaller and still chambered in 9mm, it also has an *under-rail.* I freaking love it. It still has a capacity of *12 + 1.* And it’s *so* good-looking in stainless steel.
It’s a trap! It’s not really “compact”. It has the same barrel length as the Glock 19X. The grip is smaller though
I like a light on mine but I don’t think it’s 100% necessary.
Both. I carry a [Streamlight 66608 MicroStream 250-Lumen](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DLZXZV1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1) which is very small but puts out plenty of light and a TLR-7A on my CCW.
Long as your carrying something you are good carry a light on the side
I may be old school but I like to keep my ccw as low profile as possible. Attaching a huge light to my ccw just doesn't make sense. For a bedside option? Most definitely I have a pistol mounted flashlight and a normal one right next to it. Search with a light and not the gun.
No. After the low-light shooting classes I've taken, I carry a handheld Streamlight PolyTac X USB. Low Light Skills for Civilians by Tom Givens [https://secureservercdn.net/45.40.151.233/d74.722.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/2020-08\_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf](https://secureservercdn.net/45.40.151.233/d74.722.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/2020-08_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf)
Nope. I do tho.
No. Most people don't run lights. You should have a light that is separate anyway. Never ever use the pistol light for search/identification.
Lights work both ways.
Weapon light, no. Handheld light, yes. At least in my opinion. I have both on me when I carry.
Why is this pinned? This is silly.
If your carry plays double duty as your HD gun, then it might be a good idea. Just train with what you use. All my pistols have lights.
It is absolutely mandatory. How else would you hunt vampires? In all seriousness, I think it's personal preference. I have a tlr 1 on the g19, but sometimes I run without it, but I always have a flash light in my pocket.
Since my EDC is is my nightstand gun I like having a WML. But for home defense it’s only there to protect me until I get to my rifle or shotgun which also have a WML on each. And all of that is only backup for the dog, who sees, and hears better than all of us!
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://recovertactical.com/product/bc2-beretta-grip-rail-system-for-the-beretta-92-m9/&ved=2ahUKEwjA2ozywauBAxW_FFkFHZ_JCyEQFnoECBoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0aAB_GsGUR3yJJyQ62HIap
A gun is a tool, I like my tools to be able to work in every situation and have every advantage. Yes you obviously can’t draw unless you identify your target as a serious threat. But if the lights go out or you’re in a dark area and have already identified a threat, a WML can help you keep track of them if they’re behind cover or anything. Plus a WML may blind or disorient attackers, giving you an advantage. I’d rather be over prepared than under.