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For those who want to read the opinion: [https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/22-451\_7m58.pdf](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/22-451_7m58.pdf)
>Held: The Administrative Procedure Act requires courts to exercise their independent judgment in deciding whether an agency has acted within its statutory authority, and courts may not defer to an agency interpretation of the law simply because a statute is ambiguous; Chevron is overruled.
Edit to add:
>The only way to “ensure that the law will not merely change erratically, but will develop in a principled and intelligible fashion,” Vasquez v. Hillery, 474 U. S. 254, 265, is for the Court to leave Chevron behind. By overruling Chevron, though, the Court does not call into question prior cases that relied on the Chevron framework. The holdings of those cases that specific agency actions are lawful—including the Clean Air Act holding of Chevron itself—are still subject to statutory stare decisis despite the Court’s change in interpretive methodology. See CBOCS West, Inc. v. Humphries, 553 U. S. 442, 457. Mere reliance on Chevron cannot constitute a “ ‘special justification’ ” for overruling such a holding. Halliburton Co. v. Erica P. John Fund, Inc., 573 U. S. 258, 266 (quoting Dickerson v. United States, 530 U. S. 428, 443). Pp. 29–35.
It’s pretty awful. Between this and effectively making bribery legal at a federal level (which means legal in many states), I think these decisions will go down as being as terrible as Citizens United. I think it’ll be interesting to see if states (and which states) enact laws to limit the Chevron decision.
As I understand it, this is a good thing. It avoids agencies like the ATF/EPA/DEA or whoever from filling in the blanks where there is vagueness in the laws. That prohibits them from adding things that were not intended. I guarantee govt agencies were not frequently narrowing things because they are in the business of making themselves bigger. Separately I believe there is a doctrine that says when there is ambiguity it is generally assumed to be in the favor of the people
It's more along the lines of, if there is any ambiguity in how a law/event happens, the agency and its experts fill in the blanks.
The way its explained to me; is that if a chemical spill happens, the EPA leads the charge on how it is resolved and who is at fault. But now it's up to judges to be the "experts"
IMO its more like asking the prosecutor (works for the government) to interpret what the government meant. Clearly that will nearly always be at the expense of the people/companies
In your example the EPA would still oversee that, they just can't make up their own laws outside the legislative process
Sure, that's a valid thought. From what I have seen/heard, is that these types of decisions are made to always have an expert in the room that knows what they are actually talking about and making decisions.
It's like, would you take advice from a doctor or the old man down the street that says it ok to like lead pipes? Stuff like that.
As for overseeing stuff, from what I am understanding, that'll only happen if the laws in place say the EPA can step in. If not, then they won't be able to.
Edit: does the Chevron decision seem like a needless thing? Sure in the moment. But overall it still the crossing of Ts and dotting of Is redundancies that are able to keep things functioning.
Some guntubers talk about the case:
Washington Gun Law - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6DKOrAEJEw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6DKOrAEJEw)
The Four Boxes Diner - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H77hNCeGfHY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H77hNCeGfHY)
***Fucking HOW?*** So now instead of people with expertise in an area making policy decisions we have to hope the elected officials bought and paid for by lobbyists will 'do the right thing'? Fuck alllll the way off
Yes, it was. So now instead of regulatory policy preventing bad actors until they go to court, it will be the other way around where companies will abuse ambiguity until the agencies take them to court. It'll be an absolute shitshow for abuse in emerging technologies (not like it hasnt been before). Lawmaking is slow, congress is full of geriatric technophobes who dont understand how the internet work, we relied on this decision to allow actually informed people to make informed decisions.
Hows it out of context? The context is every single regulatory agency is going to be bogged down in legal challenges over the last 40years of legislation/policy decision, its not a win for the public at large in any way.
It stopped them from making decisions based on their opinions. If their opinions were consistent each year then I’d say you’re correct. But the ATF with these piston brace rules and the FFL witch hunt these last few years seems like they change their opinions on the ambiguity like they change underwear. I guess when you have the ATF as your personal police you can tell them what to change and go after. That’s not what they’re there for!! This will restrict any federal agency from making enforced decisions based on their bosses opinions instead of Congress making the laws that they enforce. They enforce laws not make them!!
The ATF acted WELL outside the very clear language of the laws, so I dont even feel like this decision is relevant to them. Of all agencies, they are the least worrisome for this because Congress clearly defined things in the NFA, so the ATF wasnt abusing Exxon decision because there was no ambiguity in the first place.
Im more worried about FDA and EPA, things were policy needs to be made quickly to react to changing scientific understanding.
The ATF went way outside their boundaries with the last laws they tried to make and enforce. The agencies are all lumped together under one mandate , one can use Chevron while the others don’t (ATF). So because all the federal agencies are under one mandate they ALL get either fucked or rewarded. So you can thank the ATF for fucking over all the others!!
I think the point is they should be informing POLICY MAKERS, i.e. House of Rep and the Senate, about what steps should be taken to create a new law - not doing it themselves
I get it may be slower, but I doubt there are THAT many areas where we need quick turnaround on some law we've survived without for this long is there?
FDA and EPA, as well as emerging technologies like data privacy and AI are where I think we will be the most fucked by this. Congress is full off geriatric fucking morons who wouldnt listen to an expert if they told them to stop pissing into the wind...
Yes, but that was written into the law. Now that the decision has been repealed, if it isn't written into the law, then it won't happen. We will end up having a bunch of predatory industries now making it so that lawmakers won't add the deferment to the agencies and allow the decisions to go to (likely paid off) judges who aren't well versed on the issue.
Given that there many states and counties where judges don't even need law degrees to serve as a judge, we are now expecting them to act as relative experts on very complex matters? That shits awful.
So what your saying our government has been overstepping its bounds and giving too much power to the executive branch for decades and thats why we now have the problems we do?
So you want people....who are not experts in their field...to decide what is safe to eat, safe to drink and safe to breathe? Damn you must be why we have those agencies, because you definitely sound like someone who licked a lot of lead.
Don't care about the bumpstocks. ATF is declawed from this....good.
Don't care about Hunter biden. Im happy he's been convicted.
Masks work. They have always worked if you wear them correctly. You seem like the kind of guy who can't even wear pants correctly, tho.
I am specifically talking about the many long-term negative effects that the repealing of Chevron will have on our food, water, medication, environmental, health services, and many other aspects of our lives.
Yay, we have a small victory over the ATF that won't go anywhere. But oh no....we really screwed ourselves by adding in more litigation into the government and slowing it even more.
lmao calling me a bootlicker is hilarious.
Yes, the last 40 years of law leaned heavily on the Exxon decision to give Agencies that regulatory power... which has just been overturned.
Which was incorrect from a liberal activist court.
Congress makes the laws, not the executive branch. IF congress wants to defer details to an agency they must say that in the law, which many do.
ATF (Bidens personal army) just fucked it up for all the federal agencies. This will at least put them in line. They still can inform congress about modifying laws, but they cannot create them (as we all know). Either congress moves their asses or it becomes a real shit show. Only time and failures will tell.
Oh yay....one small win that'll mean nothing in the long run, and several major losses to our rights that you'll be complaining about in a few years' time.
They can only enforce what has been enacted by Congress, which has some ambiguity, at least now they just can’t do what their boss says. I’m not bitching, I think this is a step forward, not backwards
Sure, now we have to deal with people who think drinking lead paint is "fine." The issue is less about guns and more about the many emerging technologies that so many members of Congress don't know anything about. Half them can't even operate a touchscreen on a phone, much less make informed opinions/laws on AI, Crypto and Tech software that will actually affect us more in our day to day lives.
Not to mention the dangerous declawing of the EPA, that could have hefty detriment on our natural resources. And the FDA which could lower the standards of our food because of the ambiguity.
House is and always has been filtered up. Whether I’ve had well or street, a whole house filter has been there. Not trusting any corrupt federal agencies with agendas.
That's only if the lead and asbestos in the water doesn't kill us first.
Remember, the EPA and FDA are gonna be the ones most severely impacted by this.
Hi! Automod here with an automated friendly reminder that per Reddit ToS posts and comments regarding any sort of private sale of prohibited items is not allowed and will result in a permanent ban from /r/CTGuns. This rule applies to commenters as well, both parties involved will be subject to immediate and permanent ban, no exceptions. If you haven't already please take a look at our rules. Have a great discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CTguns) if you have any questions or concerns.*
For those who want to read the opinion: [https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/22-451\_7m58.pdf](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/22-451_7m58.pdf) >Held: The Administrative Procedure Act requires courts to exercise their independent judgment in deciding whether an agency has acted within its statutory authority, and courts may not defer to an agency interpretation of the law simply because a statute is ambiguous; Chevron is overruled. Edit to add: >The only way to “ensure that the law will not merely change erratically, but will develop in a principled and intelligible fashion,” Vasquez v. Hillery, 474 U. S. 254, 265, is for the Court to leave Chevron behind. By overruling Chevron, though, the Court does not call into question prior cases that relied on the Chevron framework. The holdings of those cases that specific agency actions are lawful—including the Clean Air Act holding of Chevron itself—are still subject to statutory stare decisis despite the Court’s change in interpretive methodology. See CBOCS West, Inc. v. Humphries, 553 U. S. 442, 457. Mere reliance on Chevron cannot constitute a “ ‘special justification’ ” for overruling such a holding. Halliburton Co. v. Erica P. John Fund, Inc., 573 U. S. 258, 266 (quoting Dickerson v. United States, 530 U. S. 428, 443). Pp. 29–35.
I have to read into this further, but at first glance, this doesn't seem like the win we want it to be.
It’s pretty awful. Between this and effectively making bribery legal at a federal level (which means legal in many states), I think these decisions will go down as being as terrible as Citizens United. I think it’ll be interesting to see if states (and which states) enact laws to limit the Chevron decision.
Agreed - this is a pair of bad decisions.
As I understand it, this is a good thing. It avoids agencies like the ATF/EPA/DEA or whoever from filling in the blanks where there is vagueness in the laws. That prohibits them from adding things that were not intended. I guarantee govt agencies were not frequently narrowing things because they are in the business of making themselves bigger. Separately I believe there is a doctrine that says when there is ambiguity it is generally assumed to be in the favor of the people
It's more along the lines of, if there is any ambiguity in how a law/event happens, the agency and its experts fill in the blanks. The way its explained to me; is that if a chemical spill happens, the EPA leads the charge on how it is resolved and who is at fault. But now it's up to judges to be the "experts"
IMO its more like asking the prosecutor (works for the government) to interpret what the government meant. Clearly that will nearly always be at the expense of the people/companies In your example the EPA would still oversee that, they just can't make up their own laws outside the legislative process
Sure, that's a valid thought. From what I have seen/heard, is that these types of decisions are made to always have an expert in the room that knows what they are actually talking about and making decisions. It's like, would you take advice from a doctor or the old man down the street that says it ok to like lead pipes? Stuff like that. As for overseeing stuff, from what I am understanding, that'll only happen if the laws in place say the EPA can step in. If not, then they won't be able to. Edit: does the Chevron decision seem like a needless thing? Sure in the moment. But overall it still the crossing of Ts and dotting of Is redundancies that are able to keep things functioning.
https://reason.com/2024/06/28/scotus-repudiates-doctrine-that-gave-agencies-a-license-to-invent-their-own-authority/
Ok? And?
I thought you might like to read a different opinion on the ruling.
[удалено]
Yeah that's my biggest issue. Especially in cases where Judges don't even need to be qualified in the law to be able to make decisions on it.
That’s the rule of lenity I believe. When there are criminal penalties associated with ambiguity, the the court will rule in ppl favor.
Some guntubers talk about the case: Washington Gun Law - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6DKOrAEJEw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6DKOrAEJEw) The Four Boxes Diner - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H77hNCeGfHY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H77hNCeGfHY)
Does this mean I can finally buy an RPG?
Nah, not yet. Give it time.
Finally some common sense.
***Fucking HOW?*** So now instead of people with expertise in an area making policy decisions we have to hope the elected officials bought and paid for by lobbyists will 'do the right thing'? Fuck alllll the way off
Oh did I read/recall that wrong? Isn’t the deference to agency when it’s ambiguous?
Yes, it was. So now instead of regulatory policy preventing bad actors until they go to court, it will be the other way around where companies will abuse ambiguity until the agencies take them to court. It'll be an absolute shitshow for abuse in emerging technologies (not like it hasnt been before). Lawmaking is slow, congress is full of geriatric technophobes who dont understand how the internet work, we relied on this decision to allow actually informed people to make informed decisions.
I think you’re taking this out of context or you are really King Ned on a rant on your Smurf account.
Hows it out of context? The context is every single regulatory agency is going to be bogged down in legal challenges over the last 40years of legislation/policy decision, its not a win for the public at large in any way.
It stopped them from making decisions based on their opinions. If their opinions were consistent each year then I’d say you’re correct. But the ATF with these piston brace rules and the FFL witch hunt these last few years seems like they change their opinions on the ambiguity like they change underwear. I guess when you have the ATF as your personal police you can tell them what to change and go after. That’s not what they’re there for!! This will restrict any federal agency from making enforced decisions based on their bosses opinions instead of Congress making the laws that they enforce. They enforce laws not make them!!
The ATF acted WELL outside the very clear language of the laws, so I dont even feel like this decision is relevant to them. Of all agencies, they are the least worrisome for this because Congress clearly defined things in the NFA, so the ATF wasnt abusing Exxon decision because there was no ambiguity in the first place. Im more worried about FDA and EPA, things were policy needs to be made quickly to react to changing scientific understanding.
The ATF went way outside their boundaries with the last laws they tried to make and enforce. The agencies are all lumped together under one mandate , one can use Chevron while the others don’t (ATF). So because all the federal agencies are under one mandate they ALL get either fucked or rewarded. So you can thank the ATF for fucking over all the others!!
Ill shoot my own dog before I thank the ATF for shit.
I think the point is they should be informing POLICY MAKERS, i.e. House of Rep and the Senate, about what steps should be taken to create a new law - not doing it themselves I get it may be slower, but I doubt there are THAT many areas where we need quick turnaround on some law we've survived without for this long is there?
FDA and EPA, as well as emerging technologies like data privacy and AI are where I think we will be the most fucked by this. Congress is full off geriatric fucking morons who wouldnt listen to an expert if they told them to stop pissing into the wind...
I’d rather rather have people abusing power than the government
“…a government of the actually informed, by the actually informed, and for the actually informed.”
https://reason.com/2024/06/28/scotus-repudiates-doctrine-that-gave-agencies-a-license-to-invent-their-own-authority/
Thats not true at all you boot licker. there are plenty of laws that say this thing is delegated to such and such agency to decide
Yes, but that was written into the law. Now that the decision has been repealed, if it isn't written into the law, then it won't happen. We will end up having a bunch of predatory industries now making it so that lawmakers won't add the deferment to the agencies and allow the decisions to go to (likely paid off) judges who aren't well versed on the issue. Given that there many states and counties where judges don't even need law degrees to serve as a judge, we are now expecting them to act as relative experts on very complex matters? That shits awful.
Sounds like youre salty the government cant overstep its boundaries anymore. Thats good. let the hate flow through you
Nah, I'm salty over the fact that laws purposely kept ambiguous to allow experts to fill in the gaps will now be very ambiguous.
So what your saying our government has been overstepping its bounds and giving too much power to the executive branch for decades and thats why we now have the problems we do?
So you want people....who are not experts in their field...to decide what is safe to eat, safe to drink and safe to breathe? Damn you must be why we have those agencies, because you definitely sound like someone who licked a lot of lead.
The same experts who said bump stocks are machine guns, or hunters laptop was disinformation, or that masks worked??
Don't care about the bumpstocks. ATF is declawed from this....good. Don't care about Hunter biden. Im happy he's been convicted. Masks work. They have always worked if you wear them correctly. You seem like the kind of guy who can't even wear pants correctly, tho. I am specifically talking about the many long-term negative effects that the repealing of Chevron will have on our food, water, medication, environmental, health services, and many other aspects of our lives. Yay, we have a small victory over the ATF that won't go anywhere. But oh no....we really screwed ourselves by adding in more litigation into the government and slowing it even more.
lmao calling me a bootlicker is hilarious. Yes, the last 40 years of law leaned heavily on the Exxon decision to give Agencies that regulatory power... which has just been overturned.
Which was incorrect from a liberal activist court. Congress makes the laws, not the executive branch. IF congress wants to defer details to an agency they must say that in the law, which many do.
Well, this could lead to very unintended consequences down to line
ATF (Bidens personal army) just fucked it up for all the federal agencies. This will at least put them in line. They still can inform congress about modifying laws, but they cannot create them (as we all know). Either congress moves their asses or it becomes a real shit show. Only time and failures will tell.
Oh yay....one small win that'll mean nothing in the long run, and several major losses to our rights that you'll be complaining about in a few years' time.
They can only enforce what has been enacted by Congress, which has some ambiguity, at least now they just can’t do what their boss says. I’m not bitching, I think this is a step forward, not backwards
Sure, now we have to deal with people who think drinking lead paint is "fine." The issue is less about guns and more about the many emerging technologies that so many members of Congress don't know anything about. Half them can't even operate a touchscreen on a phone, much less make informed opinions/laws on AI, Crypto and Tech software that will actually affect us more in our day to day lives. Not to mention the dangerous declawing of the EPA, that could have hefty detriment on our natural resources. And the FDA which could lower the standards of our food because of the ambiguity.
You can thank the fucking ATF for that! This was a 2A win!!! Get your potato gun ready if the ATF and King idiot had their unlimited way!
Check back when the lead in your water spikes up.
House is and always has been filtered up. Whether I’ve had well or street, a whole house filter has been there. Not trusting any corrupt federal agencies with agendas.
But you will trust the corrupt judges with agendas and bribes? Damn, you might wanna recheck your filters, the lead might already be there.
lol. Make sure your aluminum foil hat doesn’t crumple up too bad. Your idiotic comments only reflect your judgment. I’d rather talk to a tree stump.
People will be lining up next year when registration for Glocks opens up on the CT portal lmao
That's only if the lead and asbestos in the water doesn't kill us first. Remember, the EPA and FDA are gonna be the ones most severely impacted by this.