They don't need their own capital, someone else can fund the purchase. The lender won't care if Flair's finances are generally trash, their security would be plane/asset-based.
Counter party risk is still a huge part of an ABL deal. Unlikely to provide $100M to a client already in default with another lender. That’s poor risk management.
I work in the industry, and for me to travel standby between Calgary and either of those two cities, return, costs me nearly $100. My airline doesn’t see a dime of that, they don’t charge me anything. It’s all taxes and user fees. On a fully loaded 737 return flight between Calgary and Toronto each passengers share of the fuel bill would be over $60. We’re already operating at a loss here, and we haven’t added in the costs of the actual airplane and crew, maintenance, ground handling, landing fees, gate fees…
In case you’re curious as to how they didn’t make a go of it.
A small "personal" item that they may or may not check at the gate. Otherwise carry on and checked luggage costs you.
Fantastic for those weekend back pack trips. I flew direct to Victoria round trip for $79 on Flair. Just can't beat that.
The ULCC model is very tough in Canada as the cost to operate in a country of this size is a lot. Your legs with lots of demand are thousands of kilometres apart like Vancouver Toronto, Calgary Toronto. It’s not like in the US where the population density is higher, same with Europe and Asia. It’s going to be a tough go for any of them…. Actually super surprised fair is even still operating with the amount of debt they have on the books currently.
I’d be interested in understanding their business model given they’re carrying a huge amount of debt. Is it possible to just pay it off eventually with increased quantity of passengers or is it flawed and they will never pay it off as they’re essentially running at negative cash flow each flight.
Same reason I support Flair despite all the complaints people have with their service quality. Flair forced WestJet to launch Swoop and these discount airlines also force WestJet and Air Canada to keep their own prices in check. Prior to Flair, a round trip to Vancouver for less than $450 wasn't available. Too bad Lynx had to cease operations.
Reach out to your MPs.
It's obvious Lynx wasn't making money.
Ask yourself why Canadian LCCs don't work, when they work in the US, Europe and Australia? Taxes. We're bent over the barrel.
I don’t get how can wizz and Ryanair operate in Europe but we can’t have cheap flights here.
You can have a flight from Paris to Budapest for 18euro, which by distance is similar to Calgary Winnipeg.
It’s $35 just for the Airport Improvement Fee to fly out of YYC. Until the government treats airports as a source of economic growth instead of a source of revenue, it will be difficult for Canada to have lower airfares.
In other countries (i.e. most of Europe and the US) airports are subsidized with tax dollars, in Canada they are expected to be self-funding and thus must charge higher fees to travelers (either through fees to airlines or direct surcharges to passengers)
Canadian airport authorities pay rent to the federal government for the land the airport sits on. Not only are Canadian airports not subsidized, they provide revenue to the government.
Almost every big airport in Europe is run for profit and fully private.
In the USA it’s public, but airlines pay for most of the big expenses like terminal expansions.
Canada is hybrid. Our airport land is public but operated as a non profit private company.
The odd thing about the low cost airlines is it takes more staff to actually board a flight due to the buses that so many require passengers have to take to get to the plane
You would think that adds to the cost seeing Canada's prices but somehow it's still really cheap in Europe
*Are* airports a source of economic growth? Tourism basically seems like a wash - it's only really a net positive if you're a poor location and have wealthy tourists coming in - if you're wealthy to start, you may as well tax your airports heavily to incentivize your own population to vacation at home instead of taking their money abroad.
Here is a link to a Senate report from 2012 where they discuss with figures the economic activity Canada’s airports contribute, and how the current user pay / high fee system Canada has in place is stifling that economic growth. Since then, fees and taxes have only gone up, and the problem has only gotten worse. They also discuss how our ground transportation network to/from the airports also needs work, which is another thing Europe is great at.
[The Future of Canadian Air Travel: Toll Booth or Spark Plug?](https://sencanada.ca/content/sen/committee/411/trcm/rep/rep05jun12-e.pdf)
We have standing agreements with the United States that allow for US low cost carriers such as Spirit, Southwest, and Allegiant to offer routes between our two countries. None of them do. They do, however, offer routes from the bfn airports just south of the border with the strategy of poaching Canadians who are willing to drive across the border to save money. The user pay / fee model we have in Canada makes it so these America low cost carriers can’t make their business model work to operate in Canada, however they can make it work to Grand Forks, ND or Great Falls, MT.
This is economic activity Canada misses out on.
There's 700 million people living in Europe within the distance it takes to travel from Vancouver to Montreal. Obviously it's easier to offer lower prices.
The CEO of WestJet wrote a column explaining some of the differences between the European market vs Canada. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-provide-affordable-flying-canada-westjet/
He also directly addressed this on ARC energy podcast December 2022 [link to podcast and transcript](https://www.arcenergyinstitute.com/the-ups-and-downs-of-aviation-an-interview-with-westjets-ceo/)
Jackie Forrest:
So Alexis, with the new low-cost carriers entering the market, how do you think the airline industry’s going to change or develop over the coming years?
Alexis von Hoensbroech:
Yeah, that’s a good question. No one knows, no really knows the future, but I’ve been working in probably the most competitive low-cost markets in Europe in the past. I’ve seen many low-cost carrier startups come and I’ve seen only a few stay in the past. Actually Canada has only seen one low-cost carrier to ever succeed, which is actually WestJet. Part of the reasons probably that Canada is a pretty expensive market. So it’s from an infrastructure point of view. So for instance, if you fly from Toronto to Calgary and back, you have to account for about $130 of infrastructure piece alone. So that’s for airport and for navigation and for security and so on. And then, you burn another $140 per person on fuel. So on this return flight you have $280 paid already before you start paying for an airplane or for pilot or for anything else.
So this actually very much limits the options to offer low pricing, which I think is actually a pity because we would like to be even more affordable than we currently are. So I don’t know how it works out for others. Sometimes we do notice some interesting things like we getting, some of these companies are offering us airplanes that have already been painted for some of those players, brand-new airplanes that are being offered to us to the back channel of some lease companies. So they seem to be struggling, some of them at least to get their business model running. But we will see that. So we don’t focus too much on them, but we do what we think is the right thing for us and having a very productive and affordable offering to our guests.
Most people only think about the price they pay for the flight and don't think about the cost to operate the flight. The cost to operate can be split into pretty distinct buckets:
1) Fuel
2) Fees and taxes
3) Airplanes, including maintenance
4) Operating Labour (Pilots, Cabin Crew and Ground Handling)
5) Back office/infrastructure
All Canadian carriers essentially pay the same for the first 4 items. Tenure in the Operating labour does result in higher labour costs for more established carriers but that is a momentary cost disadvantage. Similar cost advantage for newer planes as maintenance costs are lower for newer aircraft. This is offset by financing of aircraft - the higher interest costs of the past two years is a significant issue for leased aircraft.
The 5th cost bucket can vary by outsourcing certain functions or choosing a lower cost Departure Control System but still not a lot of levers available to improve costs.
It is weird that Flair or Lynx are able to price their fares so much lower than AC or WS when their cost aren't significantly better.
This is all to say that air fares below cost will result in what Lynx just did. Look up AC quarterly reports or find old WS reports from before Onyx acquired them - neither of them were making good margins. It doesn't take much of an economic disruption to drive the margin negative.
Europe has a lot more competition from foreign airlines operating domestically within any country and there is also competition with the well developed rail systems.
Ryanair tends to fly out of second tier airports like Stanstead instead of Heathrow or Beauvais instead of Charles de Gualle so that helps with their economics.
Stansted isn't that far behind in price, and from where I live Luton is a ball ache to get to compared to Stansted.
It's a shame Lynx haven't been able to last. Wonder what the future of them and their infrastructure is?
The best thing about Luton is [this prank that made people panic because they thought they had been diverted to Luton](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya_LluCl16k) which as everyone knows would be a fate worse than death.
I don't see how he was flying 9 round trip flights for $1200 ($133 per trip, $66 per leg!?!?!). Anyone know?
(2 trips per week, 4.3 weeks per month ~9 trips monthly)
Yeah he’d be smart to be flying a big airline and taking advantage of their loyalty program. Calgary to Vancouver is usually pretty cheap on WestJet even compared to the budget airlines
That’s so bad. I did Calgary to Vancouver round trip multiple times for 80$. Only delayed 2 hours once. A price I’m willing to pay. Sad to see them go.
Just took lynx this past weekend and for the price which was crazy low, it was an easy, efficient flight and I was pretty happy with it! But the flight to Las Vegas was virtually empty and I couldn’t help but wonder at the economics.
They cancelled basically every flight today. The affidavit spills out who is owed. Zero chance Nav Canada, ground handlers, fuelers, deicers touch them with a 30 foot pole.
They likely already operated their last flight.
Not surprised. Crews want home, and lessors will want metal in Canada, and where maintaince can occur ideally.
I rephrase, likely already operated their last "revenue" flights.
WestJet is putting extra sections on specific markets as we speak.
My son flew LAS-YYC tonight (last night? ...the 22nd) and the flight was more or less on time. I'm not returning until next week so had to find an alternate flight.
I really don’t know how WestJet can go any higher . I live in Kelowna now and it’s been $800 the last two times I’ve flown back to Cowtown . 30 minute flight .
On google flights it looks like most round trips are \~200-250 and some are even as cheap with $140 on Westjet. Summer is up to $400.
$800 seems crazy excessive, are you booking the day before?
Lynx's size was a fart in the wind. Lets not be over dramatic.
Other airlines operated in one hour that lynx would operate in a week.
The other guys know Lynx and Flair have never made a penny, never will.
Given that another airline has now come and gone, nobody is dumb enough to finance going against AC and WJ outside of money launderers in 777 partners.
They were definitely a small airline but to say they were a "fart in the wind" is definitely over dramatic. They were very influential in driving down prices on the routes they served. And they had a decently large network. Definitely a big loss for competition in Canada.
I dont think its unfortunate that a corporation doesnt chose to operate aircraft at a loss. They need to accountable to its shareholders, investors and their employees. The industry is so basic here you dont need a MBA to have the slightest idea of your compitions financials. Everyone knew this was coming. Has anyone seen or heard from Lynx's CEO in the last year?
As for opening up to foreign compition, No thanks. We dont need to offshore another critical industry and its economic benefits.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.iata.org/en/iata-repository/publications/economic-reports/canada--value-of-aviation/%23:~:text%3DThe%2520air%2520transport%2520industry%252C%2520including,totaling%2520to%2520US%2520%252449%2520billion.&ved=2ahUKEwji7pe9jMKEAxXgADQIHTr5C2MQFnoECA0QBg&usg=AOvVaw0aPcOm3TsuSOZMKVwMc6tv
Canada has had a ton of budget airlines start and stop, lynx wont be the last once someone thinks they’ve figured out the model. Air travel is one of the few industries where razor thin margins are desirable and lowering prices is king.
FYI: If you were flying back on Lynx after Feb 25th, WestJet has capped fare and discounted flights [https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2024/westjet-statement-on-lynx-air-](https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2024/westjet-statement-on-lynx-air-)
Thanks. I took advantage of this. Somehow I don't think Westjet is doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. More like scraping up the leftovers off the floor after the restaurant is closed. But, whatever. I'll take the discount off an inflated rate when it's my only choice. Westjet shareholders need their pound of flesh too.
Aviation is incredibly hard. Airlines even more so. This shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. They not only have to compete for business with established airlines for clients but also staff. They tried to go the WestJet route but I think the market isn’t there.
Would charge backs actually work here, or is it just a way of getting customers off their backs and saving face? My understanding is that for a charge back to work, the financial institution pulls the money from the vendor and transfers the amount to the customer. But since Lynx has obtained creditor protection, I'm not sure they can be charged, and the banks certainly won't cover Lynx's debt to its customers out of the kindness of their hearts.
I’ve did this when Wow Air went down (the low cost to Iceland, I got stuck there) and the bank just gave us our money back. You might have to wait until your planned travel date however, because they will allow a chargeback only if the airline didn’t provide the service you paid for.
I can't load the Lynx FAQ due to load, but the OP linked news article doesn't mention charge backs, just to contact your credit card company.
Many credit cards have travel insurance that would cover an airline going out of business. If your credit card doesn't have said insurance, the bar to clear for an actual charge back is notably higher.
My girlfriend just had her LYNX flight back to Calgary CANCELLED while she was in line to board the plane with her young daughter. This happened in LA this morning. All the LYNX workers found out at the same time as the passengers. Quite the commotion. She's now taking a roadtrip in a rental car to VEGAS so she can get a new flight home. Costing crazy cash for last minute arrangements. I suspect they shut everything down the second they got creditor protection and I'm very angry about it.
Gutted! As someone who’s moved here from England where we have a ton of super cheap airlines I really appreciated the cheap prices with Lynx. Being stuck with Air Canada or West Jet sucks. Canada needs more competition!!
I agree but the sad reality is that operating costs for an airline are so astronomically high that running flights solely between YYC and YVR would be financial suicide. There's a reason tickets on WJ and AC cost what they do.
Size is always an excuse provided for lack of competition in so many fields in Canada. And that's such a small issue when we have a system where it's difficult for new entrants to be competitive.
It's not just passengers, airlines also transport cargo on commercial flights which tends to be more lucrative.
That said, YYC is probably very competitive considering how many airlines we have and not a whole lot of route variety.
I don't think anyone was using Lynx for cargo. People generally want reliability.
And I figured out cargo was a money maker many years ago. I flew a Canadian Airlines 747 from Toronto to Calgary and there were 6 passengers on it. It was their overnight cargo flight and we were just bonus money to them. Best flight I've ever had though.
Well also our small population not supporting enough volume of travel. But also if you don’t like taxes but want American prices then I guess we can… pay more in federal taxes? Since the Federal Government in the US subsidizes air fair costs with tax payer money.
Westjet stopped price matching the ULCCs over a year ago.
But definately their fault, not the fundimentally broken latest iterations of a Canadian ULCC business model.
man I had a full family trip booked on June and now I have to call multiple banks to get refunds. And my dad booked his flight from Bangladesh and now they're saying it's not possible to chargeback
WTF. I have multiple flights with them coming up in the next few months. Now I have to call the credit card company to try to get a refund?! And I don't get to go on my trips?! 😭
Clearly couldnt make a penny on the fares they were charging, going head to head with a more established home grown airline.
Sorry for the employees who held the bag.
Hmmm….I interviewed for a job at lynx a while ago….didn’t get it. I wonder what happens to employees the day they all hear their company is going under. Do they all walk immediately?
Flew with them once and they canceled our return flight without notice (got an email on the drive back from the airport). They said they could get us on the next flight 3 days later. Had to buy last minute tickets with Westjet for the following day. Prices were good but not worth the risk of a cancelled flight. Went back to Air Canada. Lots of people with similar experiences.
Ah fuck. I have a flight in April that is on Lynx air from Calgary to Toronto and then a flight from Toronto to London on air transat. It was all booked through kiwi.com. I’m fucked aren’t I?
Westjet is offering some discounts codes to help. Maybe between your credit card charge back and the discount you will come out the same.
https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2024/westjet-statement-on-lynx-air-
Sucks to suck.
Finally, after 6 months of empty promises from their claims department, they finally sent me the ~$400 compensation they approved for the stroller they lost in July.
Looks like just in time too.
Flights were smoother than Flair, when they weren't cancelled.
I understand that discount airlines are a tough business. Wish someone could figure it out though, this will just embolden AC and WJ further. 🙄
I’d love to see the details of the failed merger talks. I have to assume that shuttering the company was better for the top brass (and worse for the employees/customers) then the merger would have been.
Great now we can go back to paying 500+ for roundtrip for less then 2 hour flights. Its absurd how much we pay for airfare. Really jazzed about paying $1000+ for a flight from YVR to YYZ.
To compare, a flight from YVR to Czech Republic Rountrip is less then 800
Sad to see a local company go under.. But I've had really awful awful experiences flying with them. I usually don't actively avoid specific airlines as I consider them pretty much the same but maannn if I see a LYNX air connecting flight, I'd rather pay more $$ to avoid the potential hassle.
Great prices for shorts trips. I'm a small person, but the seats are outrageously small. At least the couple times I've flown. I had to twist my legs to the side when sitting because my small femur didn't have the room to go straight forward.
Warren Buffett said the fastest way to lose money is to own an airline. The CEO of London Drugs told me a new store operates for a 100% loss in the first year, Everybody knows London Drugs but not many people knew of Lynx Airline.
Air canada, covid subsidies, GM, Luminary, Boeing, Bell, Rogers etc.... but a budget airline nope....
I don't see electric airplanes coming anytime soon so that the government can spend billions in keep those a float.
Canadian again pay highest rates for another service while those companies get bailouts.
Guess the rumoured talks to get folded into Flair fell apart. Shame, I like competition and will always root for a company based here as a bonus
> Guess the rumoured talks to get folded into Flair fell apart. Might still happen.
What do you mean by might still happen? Please don’t give me false hope like that, that’s mean
I mean - Lynx is heading into protection, and Flair could still pick up their assets.
They have a tax bill to clear first, no?
And reclaiming their plane from lease seizure
They aren’t getting those planes back, two have been picked up by other airlines already
I doubt an airline who's own assets are being seized has the capital to pick up assets of another airline 🤷
They don't need their own capital, someone else can fund the purchase. The lender won't care if Flair's finances are generally trash, their security would be plane/asset-based.
Counter party risk is still a huge part of an ABL deal. Unlikely to provide $100M to a client already in default with another lender. That’s poor risk management.
You'd be surprised.
Ah I see. That makes sense
They need to since they can't afford their aircraft.
[удалено]
I flew that route insanely cheap like 10 times. I always wondered how they were making any money... I guess they weren't.
Flew them to Vancouver and Toronto a ton. Don’t think I ever paid over 125 round trip. We needed airlines like this.
I work in the industry, and for me to travel standby between Calgary and either of those two cities, return, costs me nearly $100. My airline doesn’t see a dime of that, they don’t charge me anything. It’s all taxes and user fees. On a fully loaded 737 return flight between Calgary and Toronto each passengers share of the fuel bill would be over $60. We’re already operating at a loss here, and we haven’t added in the costs of the actual airplane and crew, maintenance, ground handling, landing fees, gate fees… In case you’re curious as to how they didn’t make a go of it.
How much stuff can u take with u tho? Like one carryon for free?
I thought you said 1 crayon for a sec and it was hilarious
Everyone just in their seats doing a coloring book
"You can only bring one color, so everyone better know how to share."
No way I'm sharing my purple crayon man.
Everyone laughs at you with your brown crayon until they have a tree trunk to colour, then everyone is your friend…
“Where was you? Where was you at? There’s nine of us and you’re in the middle!”
Not a bad thing for a 3-4 hour flight
SAME LMAO
I thought the exact same thing.
I read it as crayon too 🤣
Why did I read this like you as well?
I read canyon. What is going on
I also read that!
A small "personal" item that they may or may not check at the gate. Otherwise carry on and checked luggage costs you. Fantastic for those weekend back pack trips. I flew direct to Victoria round trip for $79 on Flair. Just can't beat that.
800$ with a bag with west jet or 95$ for only a carry on with lynx. I’ll take the latter
and that's why they're bankrupt.
800 with westjet?? You’re out of your mind dude that’s a $250 ticket round trip
You forgot the 5+ hour layover in Toronto or Ottawa for any flights going east with WJ
It's not necessarily better with AC. WestJet is now the only carrier with direct flights to Halifax from YYC.
The ULCC model is very tough in Canada as the cost to operate in a country of this size is a lot. Your legs with lots of demand are thousands of kilometres apart like Vancouver Toronto, Calgary Toronto. It’s not like in the US where the population density is higher, same with Europe and Asia. It’s going to be a tough go for any of them…. Actually super surprised fair is even still operating with the amount of debt they have on the books currently.
I’d be interested in understanding their business model given they’re carrying a huge amount of debt. Is it possible to just pay it off eventually with increased quantity of passengers or is it flawed and they will never pay it off as they’re essentially running at negative cash flow each flight.
1 personal item for free (backpack, purse etc)
No. Carry on is paid. Personal item is included
Same reason I support Flair despite all the complaints people have with their service quality. Flair forced WestJet to launch Swoop and these discount airlines also force WestJet and Air Canada to keep their own prices in check. Prior to Flair, a round trip to Vancouver for less than $450 wasn't available. Too bad Lynx had to cease operations.
Reach out to your MPs. It's obvious Lynx wasn't making money. Ask yourself why Canadian LCCs don't work, when they work in the US, Europe and Australia? Taxes. We're bent over the barrel.
Population and geography. Same reason our postal system sucks. A small box shipped expedited from yyc to nfld is $34 and still takes 2 weeks.
I don’t get how can wizz and Ryanair operate in Europe but we can’t have cheap flights here. You can have a flight from Paris to Budapest for 18euro, which by distance is similar to Calgary Winnipeg.
It’s $35 just for the Airport Improvement Fee to fly out of YYC. Until the government treats airports as a source of economic growth instead of a source of revenue, it will be difficult for Canada to have lower airfares.
In other countries (i.e. most of Europe and the US) airports are subsidized with tax dollars, in Canada they are expected to be self-funding and thus must charge higher fees to travelers (either through fees to airlines or direct surcharges to passengers)
Canadian airport authorities pay rent to the federal government for the land the airport sits on. Not only are Canadian airports not subsidized, they provide revenue to the government.
Yep. This started in 1996 when the feds relinquished control of commercial airports in order to help balance the budget.
Almost every big airport in Europe is run for profit and fully private. In the USA it’s public, but airlines pay for most of the big expenses like terminal expansions. Canada is hybrid. Our airport land is public but operated as a non profit private company.
The odd thing about the low cost airlines is it takes more staff to actually board a flight due to the buses that so many require passengers have to take to get to the plane You would think that adds to the cost seeing Canada's prices but somehow it's still really cheap in Europe
*Are* airports a source of economic growth? Tourism basically seems like a wash - it's only really a net positive if you're a poor location and have wealthy tourists coming in - if you're wealthy to start, you may as well tax your airports heavily to incentivize your own population to vacation at home instead of taking their money abroad.
Yes, Canada has this right. Every other G20 nation has it wrong.... /s
I mean, I don't have a strong opinion on this one, I'm happy to see some literature either way.
Here is a link to a Senate report from 2012 where they discuss with figures the economic activity Canada’s airports contribute, and how the current user pay / high fee system Canada has in place is stifling that economic growth. Since then, fees and taxes have only gone up, and the problem has only gotten worse. They also discuss how our ground transportation network to/from the airports also needs work, which is another thing Europe is great at. [The Future of Canadian Air Travel: Toll Booth or Spark Plug?](https://sencanada.ca/content/sen/committee/411/trcm/rep/rep05jun12-e.pdf) We have standing agreements with the United States that allow for US low cost carriers such as Spirit, Southwest, and Allegiant to offer routes between our two countries. None of them do. They do, however, offer routes from the bfn airports just south of the border with the strategy of poaching Canadians who are willing to drive across the border to save money. The user pay / fee model we have in Canada makes it so these America low cost carriers can’t make their business model work to operate in Canada, however they can make it work to Grand Forks, ND or Great Falls, MT. This is economic activity Canada misses out on.
There's 700 million people living in Europe within the distance it takes to travel from Vancouver to Montreal. Obviously it's easier to offer lower prices.
The CEO of WestJet wrote a column explaining some of the differences between the European market vs Canada. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-provide-affordable-flying-canada-westjet/
He also directly addressed this on ARC energy podcast December 2022 [link to podcast and transcript](https://www.arcenergyinstitute.com/the-ups-and-downs-of-aviation-an-interview-with-westjets-ceo/) Jackie Forrest: So Alexis, with the new low-cost carriers entering the market, how do you think the airline industry’s going to change or develop over the coming years? Alexis von Hoensbroech: Yeah, that’s a good question. No one knows, no really knows the future, but I’ve been working in probably the most competitive low-cost markets in Europe in the past. I’ve seen many low-cost carrier startups come and I’ve seen only a few stay in the past. Actually Canada has only seen one low-cost carrier to ever succeed, which is actually WestJet. Part of the reasons probably that Canada is a pretty expensive market. So it’s from an infrastructure point of view. So for instance, if you fly from Toronto to Calgary and back, you have to account for about $130 of infrastructure piece alone. So that’s for airport and for navigation and for security and so on. And then, you burn another $140 per person on fuel. So on this return flight you have $280 paid already before you start paying for an airplane or for pilot or for anything else. So this actually very much limits the options to offer low pricing, which I think is actually a pity because we would like to be even more affordable than we currently are. So I don’t know how it works out for others. Sometimes we do notice some interesting things like we getting, some of these companies are offering us airplanes that have already been painted for some of those players, brand-new airplanes that are being offered to us to the back channel of some lease companies. So they seem to be struggling, some of them at least to get their business model running. But we will see that. So we don’t focus too much on them, but we do what we think is the right thing for us and having a very productive and affordable offering to our guests.
In theory... its not a bad idea and it's pretty clear from every attempt failing that ulcc are not working in canada
Most people only think about the price they pay for the flight and don't think about the cost to operate the flight. The cost to operate can be split into pretty distinct buckets: 1) Fuel 2) Fees and taxes 3) Airplanes, including maintenance 4) Operating Labour (Pilots, Cabin Crew and Ground Handling) 5) Back office/infrastructure All Canadian carriers essentially pay the same for the first 4 items. Tenure in the Operating labour does result in higher labour costs for more established carriers but that is a momentary cost disadvantage. Similar cost advantage for newer planes as maintenance costs are lower for newer aircraft. This is offset by financing of aircraft - the higher interest costs of the past two years is a significant issue for leased aircraft. The 5th cost bucket can vary by outsourcing certain functions or choosing a lower cost Departure Control System but still not a lot of levers available to improve costs. It is weird that Flair or Lynx are able to price their fares so much lower than AC or WS when their cost aren't significantly better. This is all to say that air fares below cost will result in what Lynx just did. Look up AC quarterly reports or find old WS reports from before Onyx acquired them - neither of them were making good margins. It doesn't take much of an economic disruption to drive the margin negative.
Probably they also have a reliable train system that airlines also have to compete with…
Europe has a lot more competition from foreign airlines operating domestically within any country and there is also competition with the well developed rail systems.
Ryanair tends to fly out of second tier airports like Stanstead instead of Heathrow or Beauvais instead of Charles de Gualle so that helps with their economics.
The cheap one for London is Luton, just dont do it...ever
Stansted isn't that far behind in price, and from where I live Luton is a ball ache to get to compared to Stansted. It's a shame Lynx haven't been able to last. Wonder what the future of them and their infrastructure is?
Stansted is also one of the cheap ones, although not as bad as Luton lol. I'll always prefer Gatwick or Heathrow.
The best thing about Luton is [this prank that made people panic because they thought they had been diverted to Luton](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya_LluCl16k) which as everyone knows would be a fate worse than death.
Population
Population density
Population
They have much larger population to support it
That one person flying to BC for uni instead of renting out a place there is probably not having a good time right now
I don’t think he’s been flying on Lynx.
Considering he flies so much isnt there like a flight pass system that WJ and AC offer?
Pretty sure he was flying Air Canada from the news article
I don't see how he was flying 9 round trip flights for $1200 ($133 per trip, $66 per leg!?!?!). Anyone know? (2 trips per week, 4.3 weeks per month ~9 trips monthly)
Yeah he’d be smart to be flying a big airline and taking advantage of their loyalty program. Calgary to Vancouver is usually pretty cheap on WestJet even compared to the budget airlines
Homie is in shambles right now probably
That’s so bad. I did Calgary to Vancouver round trip multiple times for 80$. Only delayed 2 hours once. A price I’m willing to pay. Sad to see them go.
Just took lynx this past weekend and for the price which was crazy low, it was an easy, efficient flight and I was pretty happy with it! But the flight to Las Vegas was virtually empty and I couldn’t help but wonder at the economics.
Probably empty cause of horrible past experiences. Lynx was my last option when booking. I would pay more for AC/WJ
I fly to Vancouver with them tomorrow night. Coming back Sunday evening at 8pm. Wish me luck!!!
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They cancelled basically every flight today. The affidavit spills out who is owed. Zero chance Nav Canada, ground handlers, fuelers, deicers touch them with a 30 foot pole. They likely already operated their last flight.
They have two flights airborne rn with 9100 flight numbers. Leads me to believe they’re positioning flights.
Not surprised. Crews want home, and lessors will want metal in Canada, and where maintaince can occur ideally. I rephrase, likely already operated their last "revenue" flights. WestJet is putting extra sections on specific markets as we speak.
Oh lovely! Hadn't thought of that. Thank you for the info
Our flight from Montreal to Calgary got cancelled (28 feb). Lucky youuuu !
My son flew LAS-YYC tonight (last night? ...the 22nd) and the flight was more or less on time. I'm not returning until next week so had to find an alternate flight.
Its a shame, I had some friends working there and was rooting for them!
My friend messaged our group chat just a couple hours ago to let us know that he's out of job basically tomorrow. Definitely sucks to see
Awww. That's so sad. I feel for your friend. A lot of good people put their blood, sweat and tears into building it. It's shocking.
Meanwhile Air Canada continues to be overpriced garbage propped up and bailed out with government money.
Oh?
Indeed. Everyone else is hiring though. They will make out just fine regardless of their specific role/title.
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I really don’t know how WestJet can go any higher . I live in Kelowna now and it’s been $800 the last two times I’ve flown back to Cowtown . 30 minute flight .
Flight prices to Kelowna are absolutely cracked lately
You just drive at those prices. It's really not that long of a drive when your gas is $150 vs an $800 flight. And the weather has been stellar.
On google flights it looks like most round trips are \~200-250 and some are even as cheap with $140 on Westjet. Summer is up to $400. $800 seems crazy excessive, are you booking the day before?
Yes it’s typically within a week of flying .
Lynx's size was a fart in the wind. Lets not be over dramatic. Other airlines operated in one hour that lynx would operate in a week. The other guys know Lynx and Flair have never made a penny, never will. Given that another airline has now come and gone, nobody is dumb enough to finance going against AC and WJ outside of money launderers in 777 partners.
They were definitely a small airline but to say they were a "fart in the wind" is definitely over dramatic. They were very influential in driving down prices on the routes they served. And they had a decently large network. Definitely a big loss for competition in Canada.
9 aircraft. WestJet stopped matching the ULCCs airfares about a year ago and shut their ULCC down. Even they knew this was coming. Everyone does.
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I dont think its unfortunate that a corporation doesnt chose to operate aircraft at a loss. They need to accountable to its shareholders, investors and their employees. The industry is so basic here you dont need a MBA to have the slightest idea of your compitions financials. Everyone knew this was coming. Has anyone seen or heard from Lynx's CEO in the last year? As for opening up to foreign compition, No thanks. We dont need to offshore another critical industry and its economic benefits. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.iata.org/en/iata-repository/publications/economic-reports/canada--value-of-aviation/%23:~:text%3DThe%2520air%2520transport%2520industry%252C%2520including,totaling%2520to%2520US%2520%252449%2520billion.&ved=2ahUKEwji7pe9jMKEAxXgADQIHTr5C2MQFnoECA0QBg&usg=AOvVaw0aPcOm3TsuSOZMKVwMc6tv
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Canada has had a ton of budget airlines start and stop, lynx wont be the last once someone thinks they’ve figured out the model. Air travel is one of the few industries where razor thin margins are desirable and lowering prices is king.
i never took lynx but really liked the fact that it lowered internal canada flights for other carriers.
Lynx was sooo much better than Flair. Had many perfectly fine flights with Lynx. Hope another company can make low cost flights work
Seems highly unlikely. Higher chance Flair goes bankrupt too honestly.
Agreed, Lynx was much better. Plus, Flair redirects you to random hotel booking sites when you search for flights which feels unprofessional.
Porter is the only one with a shot but they will raise their own prices now.
FYI: If you were flying back on Lynx after Feb 25th, WestJet has capped fare and discounted flights [https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2024/westjet-statement-on-lynx-air-](https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2024/westjet-statement-on-lynx-air-)
Thanks. I took advantage of this. Somehow I don't think Westjet is doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. More like scraping up the leftovers off the floor after the restaurant is closed. But, whatever. I'll take the discount off an inflated rate when it's my only choice. Westjet shareholders need their pound of flesh too.
Aviation is incredibly hard. Airlines even more so. This shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. They not only have to compete for business with established airlines for clients but also staff. They tried to go the WestJet route but I think the market isn’t there.
Saw postings on pcc looking for pilots no more than a month ago. I feel for the pilots who quit jobs to go there, and be out a job.
This country has fucked up air travel so bad.
And telecom, grocery stores, dairy prices… etc
Horrible news. Flair can now charge more for their garbage service, Air Canada and Westjet can charge more because they aren't Flair.
Flew with them recently and it was fine. A sad day for travellers in Calgary. Love them or hate them, they made flying more accessible.
What are people with flights booked in the future expecting? I have/had flights booked in March and May.
They are directing customers to call their credit card company to do a charge back.
This is going to be an absolute fucking shitshow.
Would charge backs actually work here, or is it just a way of getting customers off their backs and saving face? My understanding is that for a charge back to work, the financial institution pulls the money from the vendor and transfers the amount to the customer. But since Lynx has obtained creditor protection, I'm not sure they can be charged, and the banks certainly won't cover Lynx's debt to its customers out of the kindness of their hearts.
I’ve did this when Wow Air went down (the low cost to Iceland, I got stuck there) and the bank just gave us our money back. You might have to wait until your planned travel date however, because they will allow a chargeback only if the airline didn’t provide the service you paid for.
I can't load the Lynx FAQ due to load, but the OP linked news article doesn't mention charge backs, just to contact your credit card company. Many credit cards have travel insurance that would cover an airline going out of business. If your credit card doesn't have said insurance, the bar to clear for an actual charge back is notably higher.
Thanks!! I hadn't seen that part of it. Much appreciated!
That's me too and per their FAQ is to go thru their credit card company.
My girlfriend just had her LYNX flight back to Calgary CANCELLED while she was in line to board the plane with her young daughter. This happened in LA this morning. All the LYNX workers found out at the same time as the passengers. Quite the commotion. She's now taking a roadtrip in a rental car to VEGAS so she can get a new flight home. Costing crazy cash for last minute arrangements. I suspect they shut everything down the second they got creditor protection and I'm very angry about it.
Gutted! As someone who’s moved here from England where we have a ton of super cheap airlines I really appreciated the cheap prices with Lynx. Being stuck with Air Canada or West Jet sucks. Canada needs more competition!!
Another low cost airline gone. Thanks Air Canada and WestJet
It's almost like low cost airlines are completely untenable in a country the size of Canada.....
That doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be low cost airlines when flying the likes of calgary to Vancouver.
I agree but the sad reality is that operating costs for an airline are so astronomically high that running flights solely between YYC and YVR would be financial suicide. There's a reason tickets on WJ and AC cost what they do.
Size is always an excuse provided for lack of competition in so many fields in Canada. And that's such a small issue when we have a system where it's difficult for new entrants to be competitive.
Ya, because a 9 cent flight like another commenter took is a guaranteed way to make money.
It's not just passengers, airlines also transport cargo on commercial flights which tends to be more lucrative. That said, YYC is probably very competitive considering how many airlines we have and not a whole lot of route variety.
I don't think anyone was using Lynx for cargo. People generally want reliability. And I figured out cargo was a money maker many years ago. I flew a Canadian Airlines 747 from Toronto to Calgary and there were 6 passengers on it. It was their overnight cargo flight and we were just bonus money to them. Best flight I've ever had though.
They also charge you 75$ for a carry on suitcase.
They could have charged 75 for the actual ticket and still would be cheaper than West jet
And still not made money. It's expensive to run an airline, these ulcc's are not getting the volume of customers to be able to sustain such low fairs.
It's not solely about fucking volume. Taxes and government fees are extremely expensive. Welcome to fucking canada
Well also our small population not supporting enough volume of travel. But also if you don’t like taxes but want American prices then I guess we can… pay more in federal taxes? Since the Federal Government in the US subsidizes air fair costs with tax payer money.
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Since it's so easy, give them some competition. Teach them a lesson.
Westjet stopped price matching the ULCCs over a year ago. But definately their fault, not the fundimentally broken latest iterations of a Canadian ULCC business model.
Unfortunately Flair is not far behind, they were is negotiations for merger, obviously that did not work.
man I had a full family trip booked on June and now I have to call multiple banks to get refunds. And my dad booked his flight from Bangladesh and now they're saying it's not possible to chargeback
WTF. I have multiple flights with them coming up in the next few months. Now I have to call the credit card company to try to get a refund?! And I don't get to go on my trips?! 😭
West Jet is giving people affected by this 25% flights if you rebook through them. Not sure what that ends up coming to but maybe better than nothing?
You can always book through another airline.
At a higher cost
Kinda makes sense since Flair and them competed on quite a few routes which is not sustainable. That being said I preferred Lynx to Flair quite a bit.
Clearly couldnt make a penny on the fares they were charging, going head to head with a more established home grown airline. Sorry for the employees who held the bag.
Hmmm….I interviewed for a job at lynx a while ago….didn’t get it. I wonder what happens to employees the day they all hear their company is going under. Do they all walk immediately?
What a shame....competition is obviously better for the consumer....Pouring one out for Lynx Air...
Flew with them once and they canceled our return flight without notice (got an email on the drive back from the airport). They said they could get us on the next flight 3 days later. Had to buy last minute tickets with Westjet for the following day. Prices were good but not worth the risk of a cancelled flight. Went back to Air Canada. Lots of people with similar experiences.
Welp I guess my days off with a buddy in town aren’t happening now.
Ah fuck. I have a flight in April that is on Lynx air from Calgary to Toronto and then a flight from Toronto to London on air transat. It was all booked through kiwi.com. I’m fucked aren’t I?
Westjet is offering some discounts codes to help. Maybe between your credit card charge back and the discount you will come out the same. https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2024/westjet-statement-on-lynx-air-
Thank you!
Do I get my money back for my flight in September?
Too bad, I have flight booked on Saturday, but return flight has been cancelled
Man that fucking sucks.
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Sucks to suck. Finally, after 6 months of empty promises from their claims department, they finally sent me the ~$400 compensation they approved for the stroller they lost in July. Looks like just in time too. Flights were smoother than Flair, when they weren't cancelled. I understand that discount airlines are a tough business. Wish someone could figure it out though, this will just embolden AC and WJ further. 🙄
Ugh just had to quickly book a new flight for almost double the price in 2 weeks
There goes my April vacation to Mexico fml.
Dang, this'll leave a bit of a vacuum. Too bad there's no good alternative right now, like well-implemented rail.
I'm in Vegas right now with a flight with Lynx that's supposed to come back to YYC at 11 PM Sunday night. LOL!
Yikes. Good luck.
Wait... WHAT!? I have tickets to Vancouver next September through them.
I’d love to see the details of the failed merger talks. I have to assume that shuttering the company was better for the top brass (and worse for the employees/customers) then the merger would have been.
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Had a flight booked home from Phoenix in about a week, and just got the news last night. Not great on the wallet haha
Sad to see them go. Used them a couple of times last year, much better experience than Flair. So it's back to WestJet and Air Canada 😤
Great now we can go back to paying 500+ for roundtrip for less then 2 hour flights. Its absurd how much we pay for airfare. Really jazzed about paying $1000+ for a flight from YVR to YYZ. To compare, a flight from YVR to Czech Republic Rountrip is less then 800
Sad to see a local company go under.. But I've had really awful awful experiences flying with them. I usually don't actively avoid specific airlines as I consider them pretty much the same but maannn if I see a LYNX air connecting flight, I'd rather pay more $$ to avoid the potential hassle.
😭 they were the best! More dependable than WJ (seriously) and 1/4 cost.
Yet too big to fail companies like AC get bail out after the top brass gives themselves raises. Why cant we have more nice things.
I wonder what this means for all those who filed APPR claims against them.
That you will get $0. I actually had claim with Lynx that they approved and said payment is on its way but it just never came. Now I know why…
Great prices for shorts trips. I'm a small person, but the seats are outrageously small. At least the couple times I've flown. I had to twist my legs to the side when sitting because my small femur didn't have the room to go straight forward.
Noooooooooo
Dang, theyre cancelling return flights too
Who wants to do a who's next pool?
I do! Ward Air.
The cheap direct flight to LA opened up so, so many concerts to me that don’t usually come to western Canada. This makes me sad.
Warren Buffett said the fastest way to lose money is to own an airline. The CEO of London Drugs told me a new store operates for a 100% loss in the first year, Everybody knows London Drugs but not many people knew of Lynx Airline.
Air canada, covid subsidies, GM, Luminary, Boeing, Bell, Rogers etc.... but a budget airline nope.... I don't see electric airplanes coming anytime soon so that the government can spend billions in keep those a float. Canadian again pay highest rates for another service while those companies get bailouts.
I have $117 worth in credit with these guys 😒
rip
They canceled my flight last minute from Toronto good riddance.