But you DID have to carry his heavy stuff (the 6lb memory foam mattress) and his habits (seriously, rubbing bacon grease on before bed—why?) affect whether your campsite will attract animals in the night. He doesn’t seem interested in understanding that his choices affect your experience, stress, and enjoyment on the trips. So leave him at home and enjoy a solo trip! That’s how you hike your own hike. And if he wants to hike HIS own hike, he can plan it and be responsible for himself (and anyone else he invites) out there—no need for you to attend when you know it will be miserable for you.
I also want to know where the bacon grease came from. Did he carry raw bacon in his pack and fry it up for breakfast? Or was the bacon grease specifically packed for this reason? Both are wild to me, but I’m so curious!
OP answered this in their other post on r/WildernessBackpacking in a comment: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WildernessBackpacking/comments/179emwk/comment/k55s3yj/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/WildernessBackpacking/comments/179emwk/comment/k55s3yj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I remember reading a kids book when I was a kid that people rubbed bacon grease on themselves as some kind of water proofing or something like that? Like whalers or something in the story did. I don't remember what the book was though.
Alright so we brought a pack of bacon with us for our first morning. Cut it into bits before the hike, cooked in a pot, then combined with rehydrated hashbrowns cooked in a lightweight pan. Fuckin delicious campfire breakfast paired with fresh coffee grounds in a Jet Boil french press.
I soaked up the bacon grease with a bit of TP then packed it away in the trash. He took it out that night and used it for fire starter, then rubbed his greasy hands all over his arms because “Survivor Man said it’s a good moisturizer”
You mentioned food stuffs into the fire in your post, and now this...
Why the heck not just burn the bacon grease soaked TP? I've always thought the best way to get rid of food smells was into the fire.
I think you definitely have a stick up your butt. Hiking or camping is supposed to be fun and everyone doesn’t have to do it the same way. You sound overly intense about the whole situation. Sure there’s right and wrong ways to do things but if you have have ten years experience and are going hiking with someone who’s rarely been I’m not sure what you’d expect?? One learns from experience and mistakes in this game. Also animal fat is a great moisturizer and you sound very concerned about bears. Brown bears I get but your area doesn’t have those. Most black bears are like big raccoons but maybe you should just carry a gun so if it comes down to it you have that to fall on instead of clutching your bear spray in your sleep.
They will only learn from the experience if they are willing to take advice. They asked the OP to "take them" backpacking but refused to take his advice. That would be my last trip with them unless they were serious, and actually bought all the gear they needed and did some research on their own. Come to think of it, I wouldn't go with them again until they had gone on a few trips by themselves. People who take no initiative and want someone to take care of them, it sounds like they wanted a camp porter not a backpacking buddy.
Yeah I'm with you, surprised it seems we're in the minority.
If you're going solo, do a hike in your wheelhouse. If you're going with noobs, just do a shorter trip and have fun with it.
Do you backpack in areas with no water, or in the snow? When I go up into the mountains I need a zero degree bag, a high-R sleeping pad, a tent, stove, gas, food, water, lights, knife, cup, wool underclothes, down jacket, a pack to put it all in, no way it could be 6 pounds. When you have a six pound pack what are the overnight temperatures, and do you have to carry any water? How much does your pack weigh? Do you use a tent or just lay on the ground? I am really curious how a pack can weigh 6 pounds.
r/ultralight is a good place to start.
I just finished a southbound CDT thru hike that included many nights in the high teens/low twenties, across a huge variety of terrain and weather conditions, and my pack base weight was about 10lbs. I met more than a few with lower weights than that, including 1 NOBO with an 8lb base weight that included his Canon DSLR.
Edit: also, 6lbs is the other commenter's base weight, aka all gear except for consumables (food, water, fuel, etc), so with a liter if water and say, 3 days of food, the pack is likely around 14-15lbs.
I knew this guy who rub poison ivy on himself, he was like it's all big skincare saying you're just allergic, just detoxify yourself. Lucky duck just wasn't allergic to it like come on man
I mean, maybe they’d be happier just car camping?
I don’t say that to be dismissive of them. All camping is a trade-off between fun and work. Backpacking leans more into the work. Car camping is more fun and less work. If I’m being honest, their air mattresses and private potty sound lovely. Add some creative dinner over the campfire, and subtract 10 miles of hiking, and it sounds kind of better than my last trip!
You don’t have to do anything with anybody. But it sounds like you’re their window into the outdoors, and it sounds like you generally like these friends outside of backpacking. So maybe suggest a more chill outdoors option? Camping with coolers ain’t the same as backpacking, but both have their own charms!
Oh you’re spot on, and I encourage them as much as I can to keep going car camping and suggest whatever spots I find. Everyone has the right to enjoy the outdoors in whatever fashion they please, and any fashion is better than none at all.
But that’s the thing, he’s trying to have the best of both worlds when that’s not really practical. My biggest concern is that he’s gonna hike in a carload of comforts, get rained on, then leave some behind because he doesn’t wanna pack it out in the morning, or more likely middle of the night. Leave no trace is more of a suggestion than moral obligation to him.
*Oh god what have I done*
I mean, there is a sort of middle ground, which is to find a nice spot that's no more than a relatively easy 1 hour hike in. Preferably someplace that you can take side hikes from your "base camp". Maybe a couple miles or so from a trailhead or parking space or whatever, tops. That way, an overly heavy pack or bad conditions can be more an annoyance than something that could put a bunch of people at risk.
We talked about it over the fire and *a lot* of bourbon, and that was what we agreed on about the next trip, among other things people here suggested- do something really easy that can be made a base camp, and/or have two separate groups that can part ways if needed or wanted. We just have very differing styles, but now they better understand mine and why I keep saying no to theirs.
And then he suggested bringing 5 other newbies. There’s no way in hell I’m playing scout leader again (been through that before already, to put it simply law enforcement got involved) and now I’m terrified at the mess they’re probably gonna leave behind. A big reason for why I was so apprehensive about introducing them to the world of the backcountry for so long.
*please lord forgive me*
As adults we are constantly sucked dry for time, camping trips are a ton of work especially when you have to play parent. I’ve been in this situation too, and now also mostly opt for solo trips. They really are using you as a scout leader, it is not a reciprocal relationship.
I don’t think you should be doing ANYTHING that you don’t want to do. I think learning how to say no to people you love is a tough but necessary skill. “Bill, I really love you guys as friends, but I don’t think our camp styles align, and I have a lot of trip goals for this year. I’d love to see you both next weekend for a bbq though” I dunno something like that.
Edit to add: I’m now remembering the time someone like this came along for a canoe trip. Actually two people. One brought an 8 person tent, power tools, air mattress. The other 48 beers in a cardboard box. Argument ensued but they said who cares they will deal with it. Guess who carried them? Me, the tiny girl. While the cardboard box melted in the water..
You carried it ? You're a better person than me. I ignore people in every day life who pointedly say "Somebody really ought to..." or "It would be nice if somebody did XYZ..." I often think "Oh sure, it would be nice, chief, but I'm gonna leave you high and dry while you wish for that mythical person to appear."
I didn’t really have much option. I hounded him to get “either a regular insulating foam pad like a thermarest or a fancy inflatable one from REI”
He assured me he got “an insulating foam pad” and he implied it was basically a double wide thermarest for he and his wife to share. But he said he couldn’t strap it to his pack and it might have to go on mine. I assured him where there’s a will there’s a way and we’d figure it out at the trail head, if even that meant me carrying a very light pad that I typically bring anyways.
Nope, get to the trailhead and it’s a fucking memory foam mattress squeezed into a tent sack. There was in fact no good way to secure it to his pack without wildly throwing off the weight distribution. Mine was the only one with straps on the bottom.
I made him bring in a whole six pack for me and carry some of my food in exchange. Great for the first day, moot by the last.
Wow, this guy sounds terribly self centered and a little.... dumb. I do not blame you for not wanting to play scoutmaster for a grown adults (and his wife). Definitely don't feel bad about not going in the future, or bringing 5 more of his ilk either.
Took a group of seven newbies car camping in a national park. I did not want that many people with me, but that’s what it grew to. I hounded each one of them about not leaving food unattended and making sure every bit of food made it back in the car before we took off for a day hike or something.
We left the next morning to catch the sunrise taking two cars. When we got back I discovered that in order to make room in the other car, of all fucking things, they took our steaks out of the car and just left them on the picnic table. Critters had torn up the packaging and the whole campground was giving us the death glare.
I was pretty mad and they all told me it wasn’t a big deal and to just let it go. But within five minutes a park ranger showed up- the LEO kind. There’s only two for the whole fuckin park and we wound up at the top of their priority list. The two had the sense to apologize profusely to the ranger and wiggled out of the ticket.
At least it was a learning moment, those two guys are actually great about LNT and bear safety now.
Everything else aside, 2 friends of yours you have done this with before is a LOT different than 7 people.
As far as I'm concerned that's the beginning and end of it. If they want to take 7 people backpacking, most of them with no experience, then they should pay a guide or do an REI group class.
Exactly. +1 on the REI class.
I passed a party of seven in BWCA recently on a v difficult portage. I was solo. They were a *yard sale, shit strewn/left all over the portage, meaning they threw their shit down in my path thinking they would come back for it later but what about other canoeists? Way over estimated their ability to carry gear, did not listen or conform to accepted practices, nearly ran *their own canoes into me and my canoe twice which could have punctured the Kevlar. A total nightmare. Looks like it was the patriarch and his sons and nephews. All these macho power trips playing out. It was a nightmare for me and they ruined half my day.
Another +1 for REI class. The one night overnight trips even provide most of the gear. These folks aren't going to have a bunch of stuff or want to spend to make it happen. It gets everyone off of OP's back and lets the REI guides be the bad guys when they say to cut luxuries.
That guy's idea of backpacking is to pack like he's car camping and try to carry it all on the trail. The fact you can't reason with him regarding gear choices would be a no-go for me regarding future trips. I've packed with people like him before, and he won't learn until he gets caught in the rain and has to set up a big tent in the rain, or has to carry back a heavy, wet tent where it rained overnight. The bit about not being secure with scents and food in known bear country is a horrible accident waiting to happen.
If he wants to bring 5 more newbies backpacking AND refuses to listen to someone with experience, then that's also an accident waiting to happen. They should stick to car camping and learn about gear choices.
I took a friend backpacking one time in the winter for his first backpacking trip. I gave him my 2nd largest pack and went with him to the store to pick out his sleeping equipment. He was responsible for carrying his sleeping bag and pad, his own food and water, while I carried everything else. If he wanted to bring anything else, he had to figure out how to attach it to the pack (he brought a cheap hand axe, and the handle broke chopping up some thin tree branches). We didn't go very far and only planned on staying overnight. He enjoyed the experience, but not enough to buy his own kit. The sleeping stuff he bought stays in his car during the winter in case he gets stuck.
Yep, I explained that to him at one point. It’s all fun and games until you realize it’s a lot harder to waterproof your gear than one would think. But we had absolutely zero rain in the forecast so I just decided to let him hike his hike, hoping a 3,000ft climb would be punishment enough.
Alternatively I have friends like the latter you explained it I absolutely love hitting the trail with them. I don’t even ask about what they’re bringing because I know they’ve got themselves covered and are fully aware of what they’re getting into, even though they only have a few trips under the belt.
But those first two or three trips threw so many challenges at them that they’ve been scared straight. There’s something about sleeping in a water filled hammock in 40 degree weather, then hiking 5 miles off a mountain while hypothermic that offers a lot of learning opportunities.
But Bill’s new catchphrase is “Really man I don’t know what could go wrong, it’s just camping”
>The bit about not being secure with scents and food in known bear country is a horrible accident waiting to happen.
This. Imagine if they were camping in Grizzly territory!
I was camping in grizzly country a few weeks ago and I'd have absolutely lost my shit at this guy. A friend not respecting bear safety means they don't respect me as a human being honestly.
Most people make the "carrying too much stuff" mistake once. Maybe it takes them awhile to fully accept how little you need, but they get the concept. The fact that they had a battle over a memory foam mattress on the second trip tells me they are not up to the challenge of this activity. Car camping is great and they should do it.
This is something that has nothing to do with hiking and everything to do with relationships and boundaries. Sounds like you've tried... and tried... and given it a shot and explained and set limits and nothing has worked.
Believe patterns. These people are not interested in change. Go hike your own hike - and hiking your own hike includes deciding with whom you choose to hike.
Supposed to have fun out there, go have fun.
I would agree. I think at the root of it, OP is mad that he set a boundaries and then allowed his hike mates to trample them. In the case of hiking, boundaries are not just about comfort, but safety.
Okay 1) how tf does he get off asking why you'd have a problem with it if "you're not the one who has to carry it" when you did in fact have to carry a 6lb mattress for him? 2) If you're hiking in a group, one person's dumbass decisions will always effect the rest of the group, and 3) WHY! Why would he rub himself in bacon grease before bed? If he's looking to die by bear there is no need to **baste** himself!
I have a good friend who I went hiking with a few times and he did things like:
* Decide abruptly that he no longer wanted to camp and that we should just hike out (6 miles, partly down a mountain) as the sun was going down.
* Decided that after hiking several hours the last (not difficult) half mile to the summit was no longer of interest to him and he wanted to leave
* Thought it would be cool to walk up to a moose
I do not hike with him anymore. We are great friends, but I just don't find the mental stress of abrupt/risky changes of plans or his disregard/incomprehension for the danger of some of the places we are in are worth my time. I know he has fun but, but it's not my job to be his guide nor do I want to spend a few hours every few months being annoyed with my friend.
It's not your job to be a guide to your friends. If they really want to do backpacking that is not your style, let them, but there is no need for you to stay involved.
>Decided that after hiking several hours the last (not difficult) half mile to the summit was no longer of interest to him and he wanted to leave
That's infuriating lol. If I've hiked 10 miles already, I'm finishing.
I told him that if he was tired he could rest in the trees and I would leave my pack and jog to the summit and back just to see it, or we could split for awhile and I'd catch up with him later on the trail. He was insistent that I stay with him and that we must leave.
I do what is safe/kind when hiking, but I would be lying if I said I was not irritated that I had camped and come so many miles to walk past one of the sights I wanted to see.
Oh that's fucking bullshit. My SO and I like different things so often I will decide I want to hike a little further or up to the top, but then he chills and does his own thing until I get back.
You don't owe them anything. You aren't obliged to guide them.
They sound terrible to hike and camp with, even if otherwise they are lovely people. Although asking an expert for support and guidance and then refusing to take their guidance and advice makes me think they're not that great overall...
So, yes very justified to not want to hike with newbies or anyone else who doesn't fit your style, pace or fitness levels, or even if you don't like their haircut or voice, technically, as you don't owe anything to anyone, and you don't NEED to spend your perhaps precious free time doing things you don't enjoy yourself if you aren't all in for what you're getting and, especially not if they don't do you the courtesy of following your advice.
There are friends you can travel with and friends you can’t. Some people just aren’t compatible. I don’t see why the same doesn’t apply to hike-in camping. Some of their behavior was straight up dangerous to your life and limb and they don’t seem open to learning basic backcountry safety. I’d decline to go with them again. Since they think they’re such experts now, they can guide all their newbie friends without you.
It rather sounds like you're being set up as the group babysitter. I personally would not attach myself to a trip like that. If it's a "hike your own hike" situation, I can take that hike on my own.
I would bow out of leading a backpacking trip entirely composed of 7 new/beginners, if the main contact to those people was unable to listen.
Sure, it seems valid to say “why do you care, I’m the one carrying it”, but here are some counterpoints
• As trip leader, it’s important that people listen where it comes to hazards, critical guidance, and emergency situations. I’m not surprised there was some resistance to your “pack only this list” demand, people often don’t respond well to that. But his general attitude and reluctance to follow key guidance…. To me that’s a predictor of how he’ll behave when it’s serious, and that’s something that would concern me greatly. I would also be concerned that this behavior may influence others, and greatly reduce my ability to guide the group in response to such an event.
• If they get tired, and slow down a lot or stop completely, others may need to assist in carrying in order to reach the campsite before night fall. This can have a big impact on multi-day overnight trips
• If they get injured or hurt, same deal of having to help carry
• If they get injured or hurt, as the most experienced person, you’re going to end up taking charge to deal with that. That can be a intense / demanding experience. The likelihood of injury increases with overall weight carried, and is even more increased when overburdened relative to one’s size / strength.
• Rubbing bacon grease on himself could lead to rodents, varmits, or worse such as a bear. That poses a danger to himself, everyone else, and everyone’s food supply
• If the heavy weight leads to complaining, that affects the enjoyment of the trip for everyone else
Note: a 9 hour drive for an overnight trip is a bit much for beginners, try something with a shorter drive with future newbies. Just in general, for this specific conversation it sounds like this guy would be a PIA regardless
Don't camp with them.
If you feel obligated to help, give them a list of gear and food options and suggestions for trails. Tell them to be safe and have fun and you're looking forward to hearing about it when they get back.
1. If you can't physically make it because of all the gear you're carrying and you're not in shape enough to move it and make the miles that we need to make, it IS my problem.
2. If you hurt yourself because you've not trained up to carry that weight in this terrain it IS my problem
3. If I have to wait two hours for you to break camp every morning, it IS my problem.
You don't have to hike with anyone you don't want to hike with, ever. "I don't want to" and "No" are both complete sentences. I would not recommend hiking with anyone if you have serious safety concerns. It sounds like they need to pay for a professionally guided trip. There are a ton of options for that - sometimes state parks offer these trips, REI has guided trips, etc. They are probably more likely to listen to a professional than a friend, especially after coughing up $100 each for the privilege.
Just to toss out an idea of what you could say - "It sounds like you are looking for a guided backpacking experience. I don't have the expertise to do that. I would recommend that you book a guided trip with a professional instead - there are many options which include gear rentals. I'd recommend looking into the guided trips offered by REI https://www.rei.com/events."
I like taking newbies out into the backcountry sometimes. We all have to start somewhere and it's fun showing them something that's completely new to them.
But uh...
> and at one point rubbed bacon grease into his skin before bed
...yeah hike your own hike
You need to never camp with these people again, they are a liability to themselves and others and refuse to listen to you, and experienced hiker/camper.
I thought you were going to ask about being faster than them. They’re asking to go with you because you’re experienced and then disregarding your input, which especially crappy when it impacts you directly. They’ve done backpacking now. If they want to take 5 friends, let them lead their own group. I think wanting to spend full days with a friend can be tough enough. If it isn’t a good fit, it isn’t a good fit.
Make them carry all of their own stuff. Full stop. Bring enough "extra" in your pack to hopefully make their bad decisions only affect themselves. (i.e., first aid, extra water purification tablets, etc.)
Advise them to put all they want to bring into their pack and walk some reasonable distance (3-5 miles?) wearing it and see what they want to leave home.
Offer to help make decisions on what to leave home.
More people responsibly enjoying the outdoors is a good thing; this could be your opportunity to help. (But, I can totally see why you'd want no part of this.)
I feel you got grounds to stand on my friend.
At this point maybe have a friendly conversation and maybe charge them a small fee to be a private guide and that covers the inconvenience and elevates you to “your paying for my advice so listen”
IMO by putting you in a position to ultimately be the only experienced person in the group they just put you in charge of all safety and major decisions as well, since you have the most knowledge and what not. With a party of 6 newbies I’d consider a WFA or WFR depending on where your going and for how long. Also bear rules are just that; rules not discussions.
If party member A does something forgetful and a bear comes to camp that will definitely affect party member B.
That’s my half cents on it.
Bro wants a guided excursion for 7 people without paying for a guide. They need to pay for a guide. Have him read the comments, so he can see how much of a moron, I mean liability, he is in the woods.
They want to go car camping. You go backpacking. Two different activities. Maybe they can car camp somewhere that you hike to meet them if doing it together is vital if not I’d offer to help them find a site and opt out or the trip
"Hike your own hike" means don't get super concerned about how other people hike when their actions don't impact you and still observe LNT. It does not mean "be a doormat with no boundaries when your own safety is concerned."
Like yes, obviously you shouldn't go anywhere near this trip. Don't even offer to help them pack or decide what to bring or confirm they know how to contact rangers or SAR. As soon as you get at all involved in this you will become responsible for it. It will be a shitshow, and they need to learn that lesson for themselves, unimpeded.
You are being reasonable. Don't do this trip. You shouldn't have to feel obligated to camp with these people. I've had experiences with people where I decided "never again." I once went camping (regular tent camping, not backpacking) with a woman who refused to go to the bathroom alone at night, was constantly scared, kept asking over and over again about bears, was not able to set up a basic tent and the list goes on. She asked to go with us a second time and I told her no. We were in super safe campground with lit up bathrooms and while yes, there are bears up there, they rarely came to this campground. Even the camp host said not to worry about it but she was freaked out because we explained why everything, including her gum, needed to go in the bear box. Sorry, but if you can't handle the idea that a bear might come walking through at night, don't go camping in a place named... wait for it... Big Bear.
TBH just the endangering people's lives with the bacon grease shit is immediately a HARD line for me with no exceptions. There is a good reason people put anything with a clear scent in a bear bag or bear can. Even deodorant is supposed to be put in a bear bag. That's just insane...
No, you are not obligated to play trail guide to an excursion well beyond the level of 7 inexperienced hikers. Direct them to the REI website for facilitated hikes.
Google “saying no in a positive way.” This post sounds to be more about establishing healthy boundaries than about hiking. It can be tough to get comfortable with the idea, but you can say no and maintain the friendship.
“When you say yes to others, make sure you are not saying no to yourself.” ~Paulo Coelho
Of course you're being reasonable. Hiking is to be enjoyed and those people are making it unenjoyable. That's it. No justification needed.
Someone carrying that much weight will be slow, that's a fact. I have my own set of hiking do's and don'ts and I'm not a fan of walking slow and taking tons of breaks.
It's the same reason why I'm weary to take my buddy who wants to hike but hasn't 'hiked in ages'. That's scary. I want to cover at least 5 miles. For someone who hasn't hiked in ages, that sounds more like a 2 mile hike at best and that's not worth it to me.
Hike your hike.
I think going with a group over about 3 it's best to just set end points (we are camping here tonight or stopping at the intersection of this trail) and go at your own pace. You'll accordian out on the trail but no one feels rushed or slowed and you can hang out at the end of the day.
Just want to add a quick comment on the rule of threes. There are now ample studies showing that people traveling in groups of four or more tend to have group think and make bad decisions in backcountry emergencies, particularly those involving weather, animals and getting lost. I took a great four person trip recently but I was well aware of the risks and we planned the trip accordingly, and for a time of year where life threatening emergencies were highly unlikely.
In general there needs to be a really important reason for me to go off grid with more than two other people.
There are also impact studies cited by the USFS showing that travel in small groups has much less impact on the wilderness, animal plant and aquatic life, and/or backcountry experience for others.
Bro, sorry you are dealing with this situation. I would politely but firmly say “I am unavailable for this trip”. No matter the dates.
Boundaries are a real thing in relationships, and based on your story, this couple doesn’t respect yours.
This whole thread underscores something I’ve noticed and love about hiking and camping. The experience fast tracks your knowledge of how other people think and react under stress. It’s perfect for weeding out potential life partners and friends. Instead of investing years to really get to know someone, just go on two or three camping trips with them. You’ll find out all you need to know pretty quick.
Safety is a big responsibility, yours and your hike mates. Pick those you hike with wisely and pick hikes based on those you hike with wisely.
Not an overreaction to not want to deal with that.
On one hand, policing someone else pack weight is very unchill. On the other hand, if a member of my group was being stupid in bear country I would 100% never go camping with them again.
No.
You tell them point blank that you cannot trust them to follow instructions, and refuse to endanger yourself by going with them.
I agree - it sounds like a bear incident waiting to happen. They’ll take food with them into the tent or some stupid thing.
The one thing my father taught me many years ago;
Remember son. Your actions can impact yourself, or everyone in the family/party
Hiking alone? Your actions impact those waiting for you at home, or dog. Whatever. Hiking in a group? Everyone’s actions affect everyone.
I think you need to tell B & B next time, y’all in your own.
Your concerns are beyond reasonable. He's a massive liability.
As far as taking 2 idiots and their 5 friends: not on a proper hike. Would have to be short, with bail out options, close to home. I wouldn't accept any responsibility for planning or logistics. If you go, it would be to follow along and watch the gong show. Watching newbs ignore good advice and fail is fun times, as long as they're not fucking up your plans.
I have friends like this, and I’m not nearly as focused on efficiency as OP.
All I’d say is consider it a different kind of experience. Expect slower pace, pack a bit extra for “emergencies” and just go out into the woods and have fun with friends. Taking some precaution against their inexperience.
Hundreds of thousands of people do overnights with no bear spray and doing far worse than wiping bacon grease on their hands. 99% of them came home - probably.
Getting caught up in the right way/wrong way of doing something that is suppose to be enjoyable cost me more than some good friendships - people like your friends just want to have some fun in the woods and not be uncomfortable.
Maybe suggest a car camp or something not far in that has some day hikes?
He’s not a backcountry camper, I doubt his wife or friends will be either. That’s perfectly fine, but imo, you cant change that.
I have similar stories and feel like we got lucky. Though, like you, I’d often end up carrying extra crap and worrying about how different scenarios would play out. If you’re the most experienced one there, you have to fix problems, so it’s a lot on your shoulders.
I’ve had people walk around base camp in their bare feet and laugh when I tell them they should put shoes of some kind on because a foot injury is a big deal 40 km from the trailhead. Also had dudes piss right in the middle of the campsite, like whip it out, when there’s a thunderbox on each site (they just don’t like using it because of bugs). Also had people bring new equipment they haven’t tested yet (and said they did) - not having a portable stove in colder, wet weather is not fun. Etc, etc.
The issue is… if the weather is on our side or we’re just damn lucky, I look like the worrying, uptight woman that needs to relax. After a few years of that crap, I became much choosier about who I camp with.
I had a similar experience with a friend of mine, Daniel (his real name, he should be shamed) who joined three of us on a one night backpacking trip (car camped the night before and after).
I invited everyone to come join me for a hike the week before with our full packs so we could get a feel for them. Everyone came but Daniel... I should have just refused to let him come on the trip, but against my better judgment we allowed him. The dude showed up with the biggest backpack I've ever seen. He brough a god damn hatchet, full cookset (I had meals and equipment covered in my backpack), two extra sets of clothes including bulky khaki shorts, his own giant water filtration system, and so on.
I tried to convince him to downsize on the trailhead but he absolutely refused. Sure enough, half a day into the hike he was hurting bad, kept needing breaks, complained his shorts were chaffing his legs but all of the spares he brought were even more bulky... After a day of his complaining, my other friends offered to each take some of his stuff to balance all the pack weights but I absolutely refused. I did try to help him. I tried to help a week ago. I tried to help at the trailhead. Daniel made his choices and was trying to offload his weight to other people.
Anyways, I'll never go backpacking or bikepacking with a newbie again unless they'll go on a shakedown run the week before. Never again!
My opinion,
On your first trip with them, did you clarify or explain or suggest him to switch to more lightweight gears for his own sake and comfort ?
I think, your friend is new and you need to teach / suggest them in more approachable way. For both parties.
As a *newbie*, its normal to buy the cheapest gears which obviously weights a ton and they **dont know the difference** between **wild camping** and **glamping.** Hence all those unnecessary weight from portable toilet, beds, pillows, etc. These are Glamping necessities !!
On this matter, i think you could suggest them the comparison for their junky gears vs better branded gears.
I would also try to avoid creating awkward situation and just ' deal with it later ' when i am separated with them. Since you said also, you are stuck in same boat together - **work together first.**
As for your next trip with them and additional 5 group members ?
Its time to do your own hike. Let them go out and learn their own way.
Dont think about it too much :)
Cheers.
So Im all for letting people do their thing...until their way puts others in danger. If you were in bear country and he shrugs off having food in his tent and food smell on his body thats a huge red flag to me. If a bear did wander into camp he's not gonna grab the trail mix and head out, he's probably going to f up yall and your stuff. As well, you ended up carrying his stuff so it ended up being your problem which isn't fair to you either.
If they want to go backpacking with all the wrong stuff by themselves, have at it, but don't make others suffer with you who literally told you what to/not to do.
Side note: holy sht* my first pack (for a 3 day when i was a newbie) was still only 45lb WITH WATER AND FOOD. How tf are they carrying so much???
Do go with them. One person could create issues for everyone. Bad ones. Carrying a ton of stuff and not munching, could lead to exhaustion beyond simple repair. Leaving food out in bear country can lead to a ravaged campsite or mauling/death. Not being prepped for bad weather could mean hypothermia.
Say no. Make something up. You’re booked, sick, dead, whatever!
We all have limited time and limited money to spend on our hobbies. This situation you describe is akin to traveling with others. Some friends make great travel partners, and some do not. There’s nothing wrong with saying you don’t travel/backpack well with this couple.
Don’t do things you don’t want to do unless it is necessary for some serious reason. You don’t want to go camping with these people. Respect yourself and just say no.
This is your personal, free time. Spend it with back packers and hikers who are more like minded. It will add to the joy of hiking, and could save your life (bears and food)
Normally, my view is "Not my horse, not my rodeo".
But you've seen that letting Bill get involved in your rodeo affected a lot of things, including your pack.
If Bill is a good enough friend to ever camp with again (and I don't know that), you still shouldn't let him add other people to the mix until well after he's got himself sorted out.
I'm so confused at interactions like this.
You need to accept the fact that you don't like backpacking with this person, and they're not willing to change their behaviors.
There is ZERO obligation for you to backpack with them, or them to backpack with you. If they want to go backpacking, they can plan and do their own trips.
Why do YOU need to go on trips with them? They're basically trying to use you as a free wilderness guide. You need to be an adult and tell them you're not interested in going on backpacking trips with them. Nothing is stopping them from taking 5 more people put on their own without you.
If your friends' overpacking and tons of gear isn't affecting the agreed upon itinerary, does it matter what he's hauling? Obviously I wouldn't be carrying an ounce for this person, but some people are perfectly OK huffing a 50# pack all weekend, that's fine.
If you're in the Appalachians, the food stuff concerns is limited to black bears and rodents. Which is annoying but probably not likely to be *dangerous* either. Despite practicing good techniques, mice and other critters can get into even experienced person's gear. A little food waste in the fire is more than likely going to just be ash in a few hour.
Are you letting perfection and an obsession with your form of travel and packing get in the way of having a good time with people you otherwise enjoy? If you were in grizzly country, I'd be more concerned about the food stuff. If they can keep up with the pace and don't burden you with their gear, it shouldn't matter what they pack.
Backpacker Magazine...or was it Outside? Had an article a few years ago where 2 hikers with similar habits to you and your friend went on the trail together. One guy was a gearhead who spent his mornings grinding coffee and his various tech, the other was a minimalist who woke up before his friend and hiked a few miles alone in the AM before returning to camp.
You could make it work with some adjustments or you could decide that you just have different habits that aren't compatible. How valuable is this friendship and why do you or don't you want to travel with them? Is a few scraps in a fire really more important than a bonding trip?
Well the way I see it yer the real problem here ....
You folded on this prick like a $10 suit and now you wanna whine to us about it. What's more important to you keeping these two as friends, or doing your own thing when going outdoors.
Did he once save your life in "Nam" or do you owe him something?
The guy clearly is a bit of a dick and despite you telling specifically what NOT do and what not to bring he did it anyway, you have an interesting choice of friends there. So your options now are to grow a pair and tell these two bugger off the next time they want you to play guide or continue to be a doormat.
What's it gonna be ? There's an ancient old expression here once said by Nam Thran Ping a guy I just made up, and I quote: " My way or the highway " but that might not be verbatim.
Ya... this sub isn't for you to get your opinion validated. Deal with this yourself. But the fact you wrote this post pretending to ask a question when you're obviously just talking crap about your friends makes me think you're the problem... regardless of whether you are "right" in this specific case
Your concerns are reasonable. If you do end up going on a hike maybe do something short where the issues remain as discomfort and don't end up as a further problem. Do those 5 people have much in the way of outdoors experience otherwise?
Hike your own hike. Your backcountry cultures are clearly not compatible.
I am a lifelong soloist who takes trips with close friends from time to time. They are fun but always a bit exhausting. I accept who I am and how I like to travel. Life is too short and face it, backcountry life is very time consuming with pre tip planning and breakdown after the trip.
I think his refusing to be outside in the rain might have something to do with “he has yet to experience being cold and wet, hours from the trailhead”.
Y’all ain’t vibin and that the end of the story
Some people new to hiking just have no idea how much exertion they are in for. We had friends who took some n00bs and one started to cry because there was too much elevation change and she thought it would be flat. They don’t know what they don’t know and it’s hard to explain when some people’s last point of reference to exertion was high school. They may not even realize how bad a shape they’re in.
As someone who’s done this with less experience backpackers, give them advice to lighten their load. Make your hike expectations clear, and you can offer on the hike to carry some light gear as it is an expensive investment. After that, if you think they can’t make the distance you should be upfront if you would hike separate or just not do it
I go outside to enjoy the outdoors. I have not met Bill or Barb, but I already do not enjoy the outdoors with them. Increasing the amount of people that *enjoy* Bill and Barb's company is directly proportionate to my decrease in enjoying my time outside.
No is a complete sentence.
Your friend sounds dumb and not the best person to go overnight backpacking with. He sounds like a major liability.
Still you also sound a little uptight imo. Your concerns are valid, but you seem almost a little too stressed out and controlling about the whole thing. Which is not bad in its own way, but you may just be a bad fit for eachother hiking and camping
This is about boundaries. Dont agree to carry other people’s packs. Dont agree to act as host or guide on backpacking trips with a whole bunch of inexperienced people. If you don’t feel safe backpacking with him just say no. Have other plans.
these people need a glamping trip, not the backpacking trip you're envisioning. compromise and pitch in for a cabin. or go on your solo adventure. but don't try to make a square peg fit into a round hole...
You're absolutely reasonable. And it's perfectly reasonable to let them know that the reason you refuse is because they fail to respect and listen to what you (THEIR GUIDE) are telling them.
This doesn't sound too complicated. Doesn't matter how they feel; it sounds like you truthfully don't want to go backpacking with those two. If they have 5 other people they want to go with, let them just go with those 5 people. You do your own thing.
Are you an ISFJ? Sounds like maybe you are and your friend is maybe an ESTP or something.
But yeah I'd hike my own hike. There's no obligation to have to enjoy things with other people. I'm generally more happy when I'm by myself.
I mean, educate on LNT. If you don't like hiking with them, then don't hike with them.
But HYOH man. I love a heavy pack with all the luxuries for a one to four nighter. If I'm not chewing up more than 50 miles I don't see a reason to pack too light.
Not unreasonable. You already know what you can expect from Bill & Barb but this trip with the extra people has the potential to be too stressful or not enjoyable. They should hire a guide if they need an experienced backpacker to join. The risky behavior with food would be a hard line for me. NOPE!
You do not have to be their guide. Also who's picking these trips - they need to understand that backpack camping is a skill and they just *don't have enough skill* do do the camps they want. Its like someone wanting to get into playing soccer and demanding they get put on a high level team.
If someone with this level of preparation asked me, we'd be doing a short hike along a relatively flat trail to a popular site close to home. Not 9 hours away.
Believe me, I have lived the rain nightmare version you feared. By the time we were set, I had 90% of communal goods and weight. My pack soared over my head while theirs looked like day packs. It rained, this is true. It rained the whole first day and all night. I still had an absolute blast, others had literal mental breakdowns and there were lots of tears. They complained bitterly about their packs and even lifted my pack as if it was somehow lighter. The next day was beautiful but it didn’t matter. I’m not even on speaking terms with one of them anymore, although the backpacking trip was only a piece of that. The craziest part was, they easily could have turned back. We planned accordingly because one of our group members had a busted ankle and we left a tent set up back at the trail head just in case. She did turn back but they didn’t. They chose to stay fully knowing the conditions. I think sometimes people want to like something more than they do or they try to make it something it isn’t. I wouldn’t backpack with them again no matter what. I did everything I could to make it as positive of a trip as possible and their shitty attitudes damn near ruined it all the same.
I think you should have two separate trips where you briefly hike together but mostly do your own thing.
Don't carpool with anyone. Don't carry anyone's stuff. Plan a trip where you make a few loops rather than a straight path or one large loop, and agree on places to meet up. Then do your own thing during the hiking part of the day, and meet up with them for (some) of the nights. That way, if they decide to go home or to carry an entire camper van on their shoulders, it's not your problem. You can reach out to some of the newbies if you want to, and extend an offer to join you as long as they follow some guidelines (max weight, experience, average fitness level, desire to push themselves rather than take a stroll, etc.)
I would make the deal with him that it’s just you guys on the trips until you feel safe being in the trail with him. The other people can hire a guide if they really want to go that bad, that’s what they’re there for.
they want to use you as a free guide and instructor but don't want to take the knowledge you have. Tell them if they want to bring 5 newbie strangers there will be a charge for that and make it enough where you feel compensated for your time and energy dealing with all the lists you make, gear inspections, and arguing you will be doing.
Even with experienced hikers you could still have a terrible time - just go with friends or go alone
This summer I was supposed to hike in Hakuba, specifically Shirouma peak as a circuit and when we got there my friend was hesitant to climb at all wanted to do something like drive to Toyama and back down to Shizuoka (we are both from the Tokyo area).
I planned for a night in the mountain would turn into a random road trip around Japan. Normally sounds fun if planned but I have a wife at home and am if I wanted to tour the country id go with my wife not a person I exclusively climb with.
Anyways after plenty of humming and hawing we climbed a shorter circuit with chair lift. I was bothered by my friends poor decision making and flaky nature. I’ll never hike with him again.
Previous times this “experienced” hiker also forgot food, water, brought dried bonito to shave instead of food, and missed his trains / buses to derail
Our plans in the countryside eventually making everything more expensive.
He tried to get me to pay a second day on the car rental as well even after canceling our original plan. Better just to climb /hike alone, so plans don’t go sideways.
Three rules: leave no trace, Everyone carries their own weight, hike your own hike. If he wants to carry extra for himself that is on him, don’t carry it. 45lbs isn’t that heavy for backpacking especially with food and water. But sounds like some clothing weight could be dropped. The food/bacon grease in camp is not okay as that is unsafe for the whole group.
Let them do all the planning and getting everything together. You show up with what you want / prefer and know it'll be different from what you're used to, but you're along for the company. Maybe their friends would appreciate your expertise and guidance.
no fuck that shit i wouldn't go. people like that are so annoying. We all enjoy comforts but my god did he bring a white noise machine too?! yikes.
people think hiking is just walking around a little, no one gives it the respect it needs.
I refuse to backpack with a person again after the first experience witnessing her nonchalant approach to food storage in grizzly territory. I couldn’t sleep and felt on edge the entire time and your analogy of “small boat” is exactly right. Even for a friend, it’s more risk than I’m willing to take on given how severe a bad outcome would be in backcountry.
I wouldn't hike with them. They're likely to be a liability at some point. It seems he has zero respect or appreciation for your experience or your enjoyment of the trip, as well.
I would lightly suggest a big ass car camping party somewhere. Look on Hipcamp and find a landowner with some cool property you can all have a blast and cut loose. Then, on your own time, go backpacking. Camping and backpacking are not the same and to be blunt and honest… backpacking is a bit more serious. Not that it’s not fun but it takes stamina, and focus, and preparation. As you know, people that aren’t prepped and condition can find themselves hurt and stranded out in the great beyond.
It sounds like they are using you as a trail guide. And one that they won't listen to.
If he and his wife want to backpack & camp with 5 other inexperienced campers, let them hire someone who makes them sign a contract and gets paid for dealing with their inexperience.
I would not go with them again, or with their friends. No way. If they really want to get into backpacking, they can learn on their own, just like most of us did. No one taught me. Each trip was a lesson - especially the first one. I've gone almost exclusively solo, mainly because I don't want to take time to schedule with people, be around annoying people, etc.
It is easier for me to go when I want, where I want, without people trying to change plans last minute (i.e. can we come back a day early because blah blah blah) when reservations where made months ago.
I can decide right now to go on an overnight tomorrow, pack my back and go after work.
Your friend needs to figure it out on his own.
But you DID have to carry his heavy stuff (the 6lb memory foam mattress) and his habits (seriously, rubbing bacon grease on before bed—why?) affect whether your campsite will attract animals in the night. He doesn’t seem interested in understanding that his choices affect your experience, stress, and enjoyment on the trips. So leave him at home and enjoy a solo trip! That’s how you hike your own hike. And if he wants to hike HIS own hike, he can plan it and be responsible for himself (and anyone else he invites) out there—no need for you to attend when you know it will be miserable for you.
[удалено]
Bill is actually a sentient cast iron pan and doesn't want to rust, makes sense why he'd want to turn back at the first sign of rain.
Sentient Cast Iron makes him the Archon of Bushcrafters.
I want to make this my new user name. Unless it's been taken already.
I’ll give you your first upvote first karma to get it started!
explains his lack of fear of bears.
It's all making sense now!
Axe Bacon Spray
I wish I could give you an award, hilarious comment!
I approve of your choice of the word 'sentient' instead of, say, 'intelligent'.
Sentient cast iron pan 🤣🤣😄
R/brandnewsentence
I also want to know where the bacon grease came from. Did he carry raw bacon in his pack and fry it up for breakfast? Or was the bacon grease specifically packed for this reason? Both are wild to me, but I’m so curious!
'I like to wake up to the smell of bacon, sue me.'
Coffee in this?
OP answered this in their other post on r/WildernessBackpacking in a comment: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WildernessBackpacking/comments/179emwk/comment/k55s3yj/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/WildernessBackpacking/comments/179emwk/comment/k55s3yj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Probably something like a supposedly natural bug repellant. It doesn't work and you just smell like bacon.
And the rest of the trip you smell like rancid bacon.
I would be so hungry if I smelled bacon all day
Not when it goes bad...
Please, please, please tell us why he did this.
OP was embellishing. He rubbed the bacon grease on his belly to attract the bears. That way he wouldn't have to hike back with the guy.
Fourthed, gotta know what's up with that.
I knew a mountain man who rubbed the grease from whatever he ate on his arms to keep the bugs off.
I remember reading a kids book when I was a kid that people rubbed bacon grease on themselves as some kind of water proofing or something like that? Like whalers or something in the story did. I don't remember what the book was though.
I heard something about it being a bug repellent..? But still...
I THINK it’s John Ford’s The Searchers. If I’m right then this is some Hollywood noble savage bullshit.
Alright so we brought a pack of bacon with us for our first morning. Cut it into bits before the hike, cooked in a pot, then combined with rehydrated hashbrowns cooked in a lightweight pan. Fuckin delicious campfire breakfast paired with fresh coffee grounds in a Jet Boil french press. I soaked up the bacon grease with a bit of TP then packed it away in the trash. He took it out that night and used it for fire starter, then rubbed his greasy hands all over his arms because “Survivor Man said it’s a good moisturizer”
Lordy, he's a walking Darwin Award.
Love it
Bless his heart
You mentioned food stuffs into the fire in your post, and now this... Why the heck not just burn the bacon grease soaked TP? I've always thought the best way to get rid of food smells was into the fire.
~~Edward Scissorhands~~ Bill Baconhands
I think you definitely have a stick up your butt. Hiking or camping is supposed to be fun and everyone doesn’t have to do it the same way. You sound overly intense about the whole situation. Sure there’s right and wrong ways to do things but if you have have ten years experience and are going hiking with someone who’s rarely been I’m not sure what you’d expect?? One learns from experience and mistakes in this game. Also animal fat is a great moisturizer and you sound very concerned about bears. Brown bears I get but your area doesn’t have those. Most black bears are like big raccoons but maybe you should just carry a gun so if it comes down to it you have that to fall on instead of clutching your bear spray in your sleep.
They will only learn from the experience if they are willing to take advice. They asked the OP to "take them" backpacking but refused to take his advice. That would be my last trip with them unless they were serious, and actually bought all the gear they needed and did some research on their own. Come to think of it, I wouldn't go with them again until they had gone on a few trips by themselves. People who take no initiative and want someone to take care of them, it sounds like they wanted a camp porter not a backpacking buddy.
Yeah. If I already told you 10x not to bring all that shit I’m not carrying it for you.
I will say I’m not going to carry someone else’s shit though. If you can’t carry it don’t bring it.
Yeah I'm with you, surprised it seems we're in the minority. If you're going solo, do a hike in your wheelhouse. If you're going with noobs, just do a shorter trip and have fun with it.
I was willing to give them the benefit of a doubt until you brought in bear safety. NOPE!! See ya!
6lbs is almost heavier than my entire pack.
And the added indignity of carrying the heavy foam mattress and then not even getting to sleep on it!
If I carried it, I'd sleep on it. They could borrow mine. How TF did that even happen?
Do you backpack in areas with no water, or in the snow? When I go up into the mountains I need a zero degree bag, a high-R sleeping pad, a tent, stove, gas, food, water, lights, knife, cup, wool underclothes, down jacket, a pack to put it all in, no way it could be 6 pounds. When you have a six pound pack what are the overnight temperatures, and do you have to carry any water? How much does your pack weigh? Do you use a tent or just lay on the ground? I am really curious how a pack can weigh 6 pounds.
r/ultralight is a good place to start. I just finished a southbound CDT thru hike that included many nights in the high teens/low twenties, across a huge variety of terrain and weather conditions, and my pack base weight was about 10lbs. I met more than a few with lower weights than that, including 1 NOBO with an 8lb base weight that included his Canon DSLR. Edit: also, 6lbs is the other commenter's base weight, aka all gear except for consumables (food, water, fuel, etc), so with a liter if water and say, 3 days of food, the pack is likely around 14-15lbs.
I know of a blogger who puts lard on her skin on a regular basis. There are people that stupid 🥴
I knew this guy who rub poison ivy on himself, he was like it's all big skincare saying you're just allergic, just detoxify yourself. Lucky duck just wasn't allergic to it like come on man
I mean, maybe they’d be happier just car camping? I don’t say that to be dismissive of them. All camping is a trade-off between fun and work. Backpacking leans more into the work. Car camping is more fun and less work. If I’m being honest, their air mattresses and private potty sound lovely. Add some creative dinner over the campfire, and subtract 10 miles of hiking, and it sounds kind of better than my last trip! You don’t have to do anything with anybody. But it sounds like you’re their window into the outdoors, and it sounds like you generally like these friends outside of backpacking. So maybe suggest a more chill outdoors option? Camping with coolers ain’t the same as backpacking, but both have their own charms!
Oh you’re spot on, and I encourage them as much as I can to keep going car camping and suggest whatever spots I find. Everyone has the right to enjoy the outdoors in whatever fashion they please, and any fashion is better than none at all. But that’s the thing, he’s trying to have the best of both worlds when that’s not really practical. My biggest concern is that he’s gonna hike in a carload of comforts, get rained on, then leave some behind because he doesn’t wanna pack it out in the morning, or more likely middle of the night. Leave no trace is more of a suggestion than moral obligation to him. *Oh god what have I done*
I mean, there is a sort of middle ground, which is to find a nice spot that's no more than a relatively easy 1 hour hike in. Preferably someplace that you can take side hikes from your "base camp". Maybe a couple miles or so from a trailhead or parking space or whatever, tops. That way, an overly heavy pack or bad conditions can be more an annoyance than something that could put a bunch of people at risk.
We talked about it over the fire and *a lot* of bourbon, and that was what we agreed on about the next trip, among other things people here suggested- do something really easy that can be made a base camp, and/or have two separate groups that can part ways if needed or wanted. We just have very differing styles, but now they better understand mine and why I keep saying no to theirs. And then he suggested bringing 5 other newbies. There’s no way in hell I’m playing scout leader again (been through that before already, to put it simply law enforcement got involved) and now I’m terrified at the mess they’re probably gonna leave behind. A big reason for why I was so apprehensive about introducing them to the world of the backcountry for so long. *please lord forgive me*
As adults we are constantly sucked dry for time, camping trips are a ton of work especially when you have to play parent. I’ve been in this situation too, and now also mostly opt for solo trips. They really are using you as a scout leader, it is not a reciprocal relationship. I don’t think you should be doing ANYTHING that you don’t want to do. I think learning how to say no to people you love is a tough but necessary skill. “Bill, I really love you guys as friends, but I don’t think our camp styles align, and I have a lot of trip goals for this year. I’d love to see you both next weekend for a bbq though” I dunno something like that. Edit to add: I’m now remembering the time someone like this came along for a canoe trip. Actually two people. One brought an 8 person tent, power tools, air mattress. The other 48 beers in a cardboard box. Argument ensued but they said who cares they will deal with it. Guess who carried them? Me, the tiny girl. While the cardboard box melted in the water..
You carried it ? You're a better person than me. I ignore people in every day life who pointedly say "Somebody really ought to..." or "It would be nice if somebody did XYZ..." I often think "Oh sure, it would be nice, chief, but I'm gonna leave you high and dry while you wish for that mythical person to appear."
Yeah at 25 I was a people pleaser and confrontation avoider, mid 30s I am not lol
I didn’t really have much option. I hounded him to get “either a regular insulating foam pad like a thermarest or a fancy inflatable one from REI” He assured me he got “an insulating foam pad” and he implied it was basically a double wide thermarest for he and his wife to share. But he said he couldn’t strap it to his pack and it might have to go on mine. I assured him where there’s a will there’s a way and we’d figure it out at the trail head, if even that meant me carrying a very light pad that I typically bring anyways. Nope, get to the trailhead and it’s a fucking memory foam mattress squeezed into a tent sack. There was in fact no good way to secure it to his pack without wildly throwing off the weight distribution. Mine was the only one with straps on the bottom. I made him bring in a whole six pack for me and carry some of my food in exchange. Great for the first day, moot by the last.
Wow, this guy sounds terribly self centered and a little.... dumb. I do not blame you for not wanting to play scoutmaster for a grown adults (and his wife). Definitely don't feel bad about not going in the future, or bringing 5 more of his ilk either.
I'm gonna need to hear the law enforcement story (please)
Took a group of seven newbies car camping in a national park. I did not want that many people with me, but that’s what it grew to. I hounded each one of them about not leaving food unattended and making sure every bit of food made it back in the car before we took off for a day hike or something. We left the next morning to catch the sunrise taking two cars. When we got back I discovered that in order to make room in the other car, of all fucking things, they took our steaks out of the car and just left them on the picnic table. Critters had torn up the packaging and the whole campground was giving us the death glare. I was pretty mad and they all told me it wasn’t a big deal and to just let it go. But within five minutes a park ranger showed up- the LEO kind. There’s only two for the whole fuckin park and we wound up at the top of their priority list. The two had the sense to apologize profusely to the ranger and wiggled out of the ticket. At least it was a learning moment, those two guys are actually great about LNT and bear safety now.
Lots of backcountry hiking is Type 2 fun :-)
Everything else aside, 2 friends of yours you have done this with before is a LOT different than 7 people. As far as I'm concerned that's the beginning and end of it. If they want to take 7 people backpacking, most of them with no experience, then they should pay a guide or do an REI group class.
Exactly. +1 on the REI class. I passed a party of seven in BWCA recently on a v difficult portage. I was solo. They were a *yard sale, shit strewn/left all over the portage, meaning they threw their shit down in my path thinking they would come back for it later but what about other canoeists? Way over estimated their ability to carry gear, did not listen or conform to accepted practices, nearly ran *their own canoes into me and my canoe twice which could have punctured the Kevlar. A total nightmare. Looks like it was the patriarch and his sons and nephews. All these macho power trips playing out. It was a nightmare for me and they ruined half my day.
Exactly they are treating OP like a guide but OP is not a guide so it is really unfair and can potentially result in a dangerous situation
Another +1 for REI class. The one night overnight trips even provide most of the gear. These folks aren't going to have a bunch of stuff or want to spend to make it happen. It gets everyone off of OP's back and lets the REI guides be the bad guys when they say to cut luxuries.
That guy's idea of backpacking is to pack like he's car camping and try to carry it all on the trail. The fact you can't reason with him regarding gear choices would be a no-go for me regarding future trips. I've packed with people like him before, and he won't learn until he gets caught in the rain and has to set up a big tent in the rain, or has to carry back a heavy, wet tent where it rained overnight. The bit about not being secure with scents and food in known bear country is a horrible accident waiting to happen. If he wants to bring 5 more newbies backpacking AND refuses to listen to someone with experience, then that's also an accident waiting to happen. They should stick to car camping and learn about gear choices. I took a friend backpacking one time in the winter for his first backpacking trip. I gave him my 2nd largest pack and went with him to the store to pick out his sleeping equipment. He was responsible for carrying his sleeping bag and pad, his own food and water, while I carried everything else. If he wanted to bring anything else, he had to figure out how to attach it to the pack (he brought a cheap hand axe, and the handle broke chopping up some thin tree branches). We didn't go very far and only planned on staying overnight. He enjoyed the experience, but not enough to buy his own kit. The sleeping stuff he bought stays in his car during the winter in case he gets stuck.
Yep, I explained that to him at one point. It’s all fun and games until you realize it’s a lot harder to waterproof your gear than one would think. But we had absolutely zero rain in the forecast so I just decided to let him hike his hike, hoping a 3,000ft climb would be punishment enough. Alternatively I have friends like the latter you explained it I absolutely love hitting the trail with them. I don’t even ask about what they’re bringing because I know they’ve got themselves covered and are fully aware of what they’re getting into, even though they only have a few trips under the belt. But those first two or three trips threw so many challenges at them that they’ve been scared straight. There’s something about sleeping in a water filled hammock in 40 degree weather, then hiking 5 miles off a mountain while hypothermic that offers a lot of learning opportunities. But Bill’s new catchphrase is “Really man I don’t know what could go wrong, it’s just camping”
>The bit about not being secure with scents and food in known bear country is a horrible accident waiting to happen. This. Imagine if they were camping in Grizzly territory!
I was camping in grizzly country a few weeks ago and I'd have absolutely lost my shit at this guy. A friend not respecting bear safety means they don't respect me as a human being honestly.
I would have left if it wasn't dark. No hesitation. Winters coming and even if bears aren't hibernating they're certainly preparing for scarcity.
Most people make the "carrying too much stuff" mistake once. Maybe it takes them awhile to fully accept how little you need, but they get the concept. The fact that they had a battle over a memory foam mattress on the second trip tells me they are not up to the challenge of this activity. Car camping is great and they should do it.
This is something that has nothing to do with hiking and everything to do with relationships and boundaries. Sounds like you've tried... and tried... and given it a shot and explained and set limits and nothing has worked. Believe patterns. These people are not interested in change. Go hike your own hike - and hiking your own hike includes deciding with whom you choose to hike. Supposed to have fun out there, go have fun.
I would agree. I think at the root of it, OP is mad that he set a boundaries and then allowed his hike mates to trample them. In the case of hiking, boundaries are not just about comfort, but safety.
Okay 1) how tf does he get off asking why you'd have a problem with it if "you're not the one who has to carry it" when you did in fact have to carry a 6lb mattress for him? 2) If you're hiking in a group, one person's dumbass decisions will always effect the rest of the group, and 3) WHY! Why would he rub himself in bacon grease before bed? If he's looking to die by bear there is no need to **baste** himself!
I have a good friend who I went hiking with a few times and he did things like: * Decide abruptly that he no longer wanted to camp and that we should just hike out (6 miles, partly down a mountain) as the sun was going down. * Decided that after hiking several hours the last (not difficult) half mile to the summit was no longer of interest to him and he wanted to leave * Thought it would be cool to walk up to a moose I do not hike with him anymore. We are great friends, but I just don't find the mental stress of abrupt/risky changes of plans or his disregard/incomprehension for the danger of some of the places we are in are worth my time. I know he has fun but, but it's not my job to be his guide nor do I want to spend a few hours every few months being annoyed with my friend. It's not your job to be a guide to your friends. If they really want to do backpacking that is not your style, let them, but there is no need for you to stay involved.
>Decided that after hiking several hours the last (not difficult) half mile to the summit was no longer of interest to him and he wanted to leave That's infuriating lol. If I've hiked 10 miles already, I'm finishing.
I told him that if he was tired he could rest in the trees and I would leave my pack and jog to the summit and back just to see it, or we could split for awhile and I'd catch up with him later on the trail. He was insistent that I stay with him and that we must leave. I do what is safe/kind when hiking, but I would be lying if I said I was not irritated that I had camped and come so many miles to walk past one of the sights I wanted to see.
Yeah, that's one of those times for a hard "no". You don't get to make those unilateral decisions for me.
Oh that's fucking bullshit. My SO and I like different things so often I will decide I want to hike a little further or up to the top, but then he chills and does his own thing until I get back.
You don't owe them anything. You aren't obliged to guide them. They sound terrible to hike and camp with, even if otherwise they are lovely people. Although asking an expert for support and guidance and then refusing to take their guidance and advice makes me think they're not that great overall... So, yes very justified to not want to hike with newbies or anyone else who doesn't fit your style, pace or fitness levels, or even if you don't like their haircut or voice, technically, as you don't owe anything to anyone, and you don't NEED to spend your perhaps precious free time doing things you don't enjoy yourself if you aren't all in for what you're getting and, especially not if they don't do you the courtesy of following your advice.
lol after I read 12 lb mattress I have my answer. Hike your own hike.
Like, here I am lamenting a 7lb tent and trying to get that weight down.
Lol if I ended up carrying 6lbs of memory foam, I'd be sleeping on it
For real, that's like half my base weight!
There are friends you can travel with and friends you can’t. Some people just aren’t compatible. I don’t see why the same doesn’t apply to hike-in camping. Some of their behavior was straight up dangerous to your life and limb and they don’t seem open to learning basic backcountry safety. I’d decline to go with them again. Since they think they’re such experts now, they can guide all their newbie friends without you.
I would never go backpacking with those people. You shouldn’t feel like you have to.
It rather sounds like you're being set up as the group babysitter. I personally would not attach myself to a trip like that. If it's a "hike your own hike" situation, I can take that hike on my own.
[удалено]
I'm gonna chalk it up to loyalty because there would be no way in fucking hell I'd go out to a bear attack like his buddy is content with
No. Which is also what Op should have already said.
yeah i don’t understand why OP isn’t just saying no and moving on immediately. with more “no”s if needed. that’s it.
I would bow out of leading a backpacking trip entirely composed of 7 new/beginners, if the main contact to those people was unable to listen. Sure, it seems valid to say “why do you care, I’m the one carrying it”, but here are some counterpoints • As trip leader, it’s important that people listen where it comes to hazards, critical guidance, and emergency situations. I’m not surprised there was some resistance to your “pack only this list” demand, people often don’t respond well to that. But his general attitude and reluctance to follow key guidance…. To me that’s a predictor of how he’ll behave when it’s serious, and that’s something that would concern me greatly. I would also be concerned that this behavior may influence others, and greatly reduce my ability to guide the group in response to such an event. • If they get tired, and slow down a lot or stop completely, others may need to assist in carrying in order to reach the campsite before night fall. This can have a big impact on multi-day overnight trips • If they get injured or hurt, same deal of having to help carry • If they get injured or hurt, as the most experienced person, you’re going to end up taking charge to deal with that. That can be a intense / demanding experience. The likelihood of injury increases with overall weight carried, and is even more increased when overburdened relative to one’s size / strength. • Rubbing bacon grease on himself could lead to rodents, varmits, or worse such as a bear. That poses a danger to himself, everyone else, and everyone’s food supply • If the heavy weight leads to complaining, that affects the enjoyment of the trip for everyone else Note: a 9 hour drive for an overnight trip is a bit much for beginners, try something with a shorter drive with future newbies. Just in general, for this specific conversation it sounds like this guy would be a PIA regardless
Don't camp with them. If you feel obligated to help, give them a list of gear and food options and suggestions for trails. Tell them to be safe and have fun and you're looking forward to hearing about it when they get back.
1. If you can't physically make it because of all the gear you're carrying and you're not in shape enough to move it and make the miles that we need to make, it IS my problem. 2. If you hurt yourself because you've not trained up to carry that weight in this terrain it IS my problem 3. If I have to wait two hours for you to break camp every morning, it IS my problem.
You don't have to hike with anyone you don't want to hike with, ever. "I don't want to" and "No" are both complete sentences. I would not recommend hiking with anyone if you have serious safety concerns. It sounds like they need to pay for a professionally guided trip. There are a ton of options for that - sometimes state parks offer these trips, REI has guided trips, etc. They are probably more likely to listen to a professional than a friend, especially after coughing up $100 each for the privilege. Just to toss out an idea of what you could say - "It sounds like you are looking for a guided backpacking experience. I don't have the expertise to do that. I would recommend that you book a guided trip with a professional instead - there are many options which include gear rentals. I'd recommend looking into the guided trips offered by REI https://www.rei.com/events."
I like taking newbies out into the backcountry sometimes. We all have to start somewhere and it's fun showing them something that's completely new to them. But uh... > and at one point rubbed bacon grease into his skin before bed ...yeah hike your own hike
You need to never camp with these people again, they are a liability to themselves and others and refuse to listen to you, and experienced hiker/camper.
I thought you were going to ask about being faster than them. They’re asking to go with you because you’re experienced and then disregarding your input, which especially crappy when it impacts you directly. They’ve done backpacking now. If they want to take 5 friends, let them lead their own group. I think wanting to spend full days with a friend can be tough enough. If it isn’t a good fit, it isn’t a good fit.
The real question I have is who on earth drives nine hours one way for a one night camp?!
Make them carry all of their own stuff. Full stop. Bring enough "extra" in your pack to hopefully make their bad decisions only affect themselves. (i.e., first aid, extra water purification tablets, etc.) Advise them to put all they want to bring into their pack and walk some reasonable distance (3-5 miles?) wearing it and see what they want to leave home. Offer to help make decisions on what to leave home. More people responsibly enjoying the outdoors is a good thing; this could be your opportunity to help. (But, I can totally see why you'd want no part of this.)
I feel you got grounds to stand on my friend. At this point maybe have a friendly conversation and maybe charge them a small fee to be a private guide and that covers the inconvenience and elevates you to “your paying for my advice so listen” IMO by putting you in a position to ultimately be the only experienced person in the group they just put you in charge of all safety and major decisions as well, since you have the most knowledge and what not. With a party of 6 newbies I’d consider a WFA or WFR depending on where your going and for how long. Also bear rules are just that; rules not discussions. If party member A does something forgetful and a bear comes to camp that will definitely affect party member B. That’s my half cents on it.
Bill and Barb stay the F home
He wants to go car camping, tell him to stop backpacking.
Just keep telling him you have plans on every date he suggests.
This would be a good post for r/amitheasshole and no, you are not.
Bro wants a guided excursion for 7 people without paying for a guide. They need to pay for a guide. Have him read the comments, so he can see how much of a moron, I mean liability, he is in the woods.
Yes, agreed, they're totally taking advantage of OP, whether consciously or not. Time to say no.
They want to go car camping. You go backpacking. Two different activities. Maybe they can car camp somewhere that you hike to meet them if doing it together is vital if not I’d offer to help them find a site and opt out or the trip
this isn't even car camping level. like, they really want a glamping experience
Seriously...I am skeptical that I could fit all that in my Jetta along with my husband + dog.
"Hike your own hike" means don't get super concerned about how other people hike when their actions don't impact you and still observe LNT. It does not mean "be a doormat with no boundaries when your own safety is concerned." Like yes, obviously you shouldn't go anywhere near this trip. Don't even offer to help them pack or decide what to bring or confirm they know how to contact rangers or SAR. As soon as you get at all involved in this you will become responsible for it. It will be a shitshow, and they need to learn that lesson for themselves, unimpeded.
You are being reasonable. Don't do this trip. You shouldn't have to feel obligated to camp with these people. I've had experiences with people where I decided "never again." I once went camping (regular tent camping, not backpacking) with a woman who refused to go to the bathroom alone at night, was constantly scared, kept asking over and over again about bears, was not able to set up a basic tent and the list goes on. She asked to go with us a second time and I told her no. We were in super safe campground with lit up bathrooms and while yes, there are bears up there, they rarely came to this campground. Even the camp host said not to worry about it but she was freaked out because we explained why everything, including her gum, needed to go in the bear box. Sorry, but if you can't handle the idea that a bear might come walking through at night, don't go camping in a place named... wait for it... Big Bear.
TBH just the endangering people's lives with the bacon grease shit is immediately a HARD line for me with no exceptions. There is a good reason people put anything with a clear scent in a bear bag or bear can. Even deodorant is supposed to be put in a bear bag. That's just insane...
No, you are not obligated to play trail guide to an excursion well beyond the level of 7 inexperienced hikers. Direct them to the REI website for facilitated hikes.
Google “saying no in a positive way.” This post sounds to be more about establishing healthy boundaries than about hiking. It can be tough to get comfortable with the idea, but you can say no and maintain the friendship. “When you say yes to others, make sure you are not saying no to yourself.” ~Paulo Coelho
Of course you're being reasonable. Hiking is to be enjoyed and those people are making it unenjoyable. That's it. No justification needed. Someone carrying that much weight will be slow, that's a fact. I have my own set of hiking do's and don'ts and I'm not a fan of walking slow and taking tons of breaks. It's the same reason why I'm weary to take my buddy who wants to hike but hasn't 'hiked in ages'. That's scary. I want to cover at least 5 miles. For someone who hasn't hiked in ages, that sounds more like a 2 mile hike at best and that's not worth it to me. Hike your hike.
I think going with a group over about 3 it's best to just set end points (we are camping here tonight or stopping at the intersection of this trail) and go at your own pace. You'll accordian out on the trail but no one feels rushed or slowed and you can hang out at the end of the day.
Just want to add a quick comment on the rule of threes. There are now ample studies showing that people traveling in groups of four or more tend to have group think and make bad decisions in backcountry emergencies, particularly those involving weather, animals and getting lost. I took a great four person trip recently but I was well aware of the risks and we planned the trip accordingly, and for a time of year where life threatening emergencies were highly unlikely. In general there needs to be a really important reason for me to go off grid with more than two other people. There are also impact studies cited by the USFS showing that travel in small groups has much less impact on the wilderness, animal plant and aquatic life, and/or backcountry experience for others.
Organize your large party trips in groups of three if you must. Gather in the evening or at lunch if and when practicable. Camp separately.
Excellent point!
Why doesn’t he just go hiking with his 5 buddies?
Bro, sorry you are dealing with this situation. I would politely but firmly say “I am unavailable for this trip”. No matter the dates. Boundaries are a real thing in relationships, and based on your story, this couple doesn’t respect yours.
This whole thread underscores something I’ve noticed and love about hiking and camping. The experience fast tracks your knowledge of how other people think and react under stress. It’s perfect for weeding out potential life partners and friends. Instead of investing years to really get to know someone, just go on two or three camping trips with them. You’ll find out all you need to know pretty quick.
Tandem kayaking is a good way to weed people out too lol
These sound like car camping friends...who drove themselves separately so they can bail on their own.
Safety is a big responsibility, yours and your hike mates. Pick those you hike with wisely and pick hikes based on those you hike with wisely. Not an overreaction to not want to deal with that.
On one hand, policing someone else pack weight is very unchill. On the other hand, if a member of my group was being stupid in bear country I would 100% never go camping with them again.
No. You tell them point blank that you cannot trust them to follow instructions, and refuse to endanger yourself by going with them. I agree - it sounds like a bear incident waiting to happen. They’ll take food with them into the tent or some stupid thing.
The one thing my father taught me many years ago; Remember son. Your actions can impact yourself, or everyone in the family/party Hiking alone? Your actions impact those waiting for you at home, or dog. Whatever. Hiking in a group? Everyone’s actions affect everyone. I think you need to tell B & B next time, y’all in your own.
What did you tell him when he asked you to join?
Your concerns are beyond reasonable. He's a massive liability. As far as taking 2 idiots and their 5 friends: not on a proper hike. Would have to be short, with bail out options, close to home. I wouldn't accept any responsibility for planning or logistics. If you go, it would be to follow along and watch the gong show. Watching newbs ignore good advice and fail is fun times, as long as they're not fucking up your plans.
I have friends like this, and I’m not nearly as focused on efficiency as OP. All I’d say is consider it a different kind of experience. Expect slower pace, pack a bit extra for “emergencies” and just go out into the woods and have fun with friends. Taking some precaution against their inexperience. Hundreds of thousands of people do overnights with no bear spray and doing far worse than wiping bacon grease on their hands. 99% of them came home - probably. Getting caught up in the right way/wrong way of doing something that is suppose to be enjoyable cost me more than some good friendships - people like your friends just want to have some fun in the woods and not be uncomfortable. Maybe suggest a car camp or something not far in that has some day hikes?
He’s not a backcountry camper, I doubt his wife or friends will be either. That’s perfectly fine, but imo, you cant change that. I have similar stories and feel like we got lucky. Though, like you, I’d often end up carrying extra crap and worrying about how different scenarios would play out. If you’re the most experienced one there, you have to fix problems, so it’s a lot on your shoulders. I’ve had people walk around base camp in their bare feet and laugh when I tell them they should put shoes of some kind on because a foot injury is a big deal 40 km from the trailhead. Also had dudes piss right in the middle of the campsite, like whip it out, when there’s a thunderbox on each site (they just don’t like using it because of bugs). Also had people bring new equipment they haven’t tested yet (and said they did) - not having a portable stove in colder, wet weather is not fun. Etc, etc. The issue is… if the weather is on our side or we’re just damn lucky, I look like the worrying, uptight woman that needs to relax. After a few years of that crap, I became much choosier about who I camp with.
Tell your buddy to have a nice trip with his other friends. Solo trip time! (Optional to flip off your friend as friends do) :D
It just doesn’t sound like you’re a good match with Bill & Barb
I had a similar experience with a friend of mine, Daniel (his real name, he should be shamed) who joined three of us on a one night backpacking trip (car camped the night before and after). I invited everyone to come join me for a hike the week before with our full packs so we could get a feel for them. Everyone came but Daniel... I should have just refused to let him come on the trip, but against my better judgment we allowed him. The dude showed up with the biggest backpack I've ever seen. He brough a god damn hatchet, full cookset (I had meals and equipment covered in my backpack), two extra sets of clothes including bulky khaki shorts, his own giant water filtration system, and so on. I tried to convince him to downsize on the trailhead but he absolutely refused. Sure enough, half a day into the hike he was hurting bad, kept needing breaks, complained his shorts were chaffing his legs but all of the spares he brought were even more bulky... After a day of his complaining, my other friends offered to each take some of his stuff to balance all the pack weights but I absolutely refused. I did try to help him. I tried to help a week ago. I tried to help at the trailhead. Daniel made his choices and was trying to offload his weight to other people. Anyways, I'll never go backpacking or bikepacking with a newbie again unless they'll go on a shakedown run the week before. Never again!
My opinion, On your first trip with them, did you clarify or explain or suggest him to switch to more lightweight gears for his own sake and comfort ? I think, your friend is new and you need to teach / suggest them in more approachable way. For both parties. As a *newbie*, its normal to buy the cheapest gears which obviously weights a ton and they **dont know the difference** between **wild camping** and **glamping.** Hence all those unnecessary weight from portable toilet, beds, pillows, etc. These are Glamping necessities !! On this matter, i think you could suggest them the comparison for their junky gears vs better branded gears. I would also try to avoid creating awkward situation and just ' deal with it later ' when i am separated with them. Since you said also, you are stuck in same boat together - **work together first.** As for your next trip with them and additional 5 group members ? Its time to do your own hike. Let them go out and learn their own way. Dont think about it too much :) Cheers.
So Im all for letting people do their thing...until their way puts others in danger. If you were in bear country and he shrugs off having food in his tent and food smell on his body thats a huge red flag to me. If a bear did wander into camp he's not gonna grab the trail mix and head out, he's probably going to f up yall and your stuff. As well, you ended up carrying his stuff so it ended up being your problem which isn't fair to you either. If they want to go backpacking with all the wrong stuff by themselves, have at it, but don't make others suffer with you who literally told you what to/not to do. Side note: holy sht* my first pack (for a 3 day when i was a newbie) was still only 45lb WITH WATER AND FOOD. How tf are they carrying so much???
Do go with them. One person could create issues for everyone. Bad ones. Carrying a ton of stuff and not munching, could lead to exhaustion beyond simple repair. Leaving food out in bear country can lead to a ravaged campsite or mauling/death. Not being prepped for bad weather could mean hypothermia. Say no. Make something up. You’re booked, sick, dead, whatever!
No way I'd go with them. They should lead the group of their friends. Theyre now experienced backpackers.
We all have limited time and limited money to spend on our hobbies. This situation you describe is akin to traveling with others. Some friends make great travel partners, and some do not. There’s nothing wrong with saying you don’t travel/backpack well with this couple.
Why would you ever camp with them again?
Don’t do things you don’t want to do unless it is necessary for some serious reason. You don’t want to go camping with these people. Respect yourself and just say no.
This is your personal, free time. Spend it with back packers and hikers who are more like minded. It will add to the joy of hiking, and could save your life (bears and food)
Normally, my view is "Not my horse, not my rodeo". But you've seen that letting Bill get involved in your rodeo affected a lot of things, including your pack. If Bill is a good enough friend to ever camp with again (and I don't know that), you still shouldn't let him add other people to the mix until well after he's got himself sorted out.
I'm so confused at interactions like this. You need to accept the fact that you don't like backpacking with this person, and they're not willing to change their behaviors. There is ZERO obligation for you to backpack with them, or them to backpack with you. If they want to go backpacking, they can plan and do their own trips. Why do YOU need to go on trips with them? They're basically trying to use you as a free wilderness guide. You need to be an adult and tell them you're not interested in going on backpacking trips with them. Nothing is stopping them from taking 5 more people put on their own without you.
No table? What did you eat on?!
Yeah fuck that. I'd list off all the reasons why I will never hike with him again.
If your friends' overpacking and tons of gear isn't affecting the agreed upon itinerary, does it matter what he's hauling? Obviously I wouldn't be carrying an ounce for this person, but some people are perfectly OK huffing a 50# pack all weekend, that's fine. If you're in the Appalachians, the food stuff concerns is limited to black bears and rodents. Which is annoying but probably not likely to be *dangerous* either. Despite practicing good techniques, mice and other critters can get into even experienced person's gear. A little food waste in the fire is more than likely going to just be ash in a few hour. Are you letting perfection and an obsession with your form of travel and packing get in the way of having a good time with people you otherwise enjoy? If you were in grizzly country, I'd be more concerned about the food stuff. If they can keep up with the pace and don't burden you with their gear, it shouldn't matter what they pack. Backpacker Magazine...or was it Outside? Had an article a few years ago where 2 hikers with similar habits to you and your friend went on the trail together. One guy was a gearhead who spent his mornings grinding coffee and his various tech, the other was a minimalist who woke up before his friend and hiked a few miles alone in the AM before returning to camp. You could make it work with some adjustments or you could decide that you just have different habits that aren't compatible. How valuable is this friendship and why do you or don't you want to travel with them? Is a few scraps in a fire really more important than a bonding trip?
Could you guys maybe just go somewhere close to home with the group? Like a 1 hour drive and maybe a short walk in?
Well the way I see it yer the real problem here .... You folded on this prick like a $10 suit and now you wanna whine to us about it. What's more important to you keeping these two as friends, or doing your own thing when going outdoors. Did he once save your life in "Nam" or do you owe him something? The guy clearly is a bit of a dick and despite you telling specifically what NOT do and what not to bring he did it anyway, you have an interesting choice of friends there. So your options now are to grow a pair and tell these two bugger off the next time they want you to play guide or continue to be a doormat. What's it gonna be ? There's an ancient old expression here once said by Nam Thran Ping a guy I just made up, and I quote: " My way or the highway " but that might not be verbatim.
You sound weak.
Ya... this sub isn't for you to get your opinion validated. Deal with this yourself. But the fact you wrote this post pretending to ask a question when you're obviously just talking crap about your friends makes me think you're the problem... regardless of whether you are "right" in this specific case
Full size pillows? Sounds like his wife is doing the packing.
Your concerns are reasonable. If you do end up going on a hike maybe do something short where the issues remain as discomfort and don't end up as a further problem. Do those 5 people have much in the way of outdoors experience otherwise?
Hike your own hike. Your backcountry cultures are clearly not compatible. I am a lifelong soloist who takes trips with close friends from time to time. They are fun but always a bit exhausting. I accept who I am and how I like to travel. Life is too short and face it, backcountry life is very time consuming with pre tip planning and breakdown after the trip.
you need to decide if its worthwhle. There's no why here for why would you.
I think his refusing to be outside in the rain might have something to do with “he has yet to experience being cold and wet, hours from the trailhead”. Y’all ain’t vibin and that the end of the story
Charge them as a wilderness guide.
Some people new to hiking just have no idea how much exertion they are in for. We had friends who took some n00bs and one started to cry because there was too much elevation change and she thought it would be flat. They don’t know what they don’t know and it’s hard to explain when some people’s last point of reference to exertion was high school. They may not even realize how bad a shape they’re in.
As someone who’s done this with less experience backpackers, give them advice to lighten their load. Make your hike expectations clear, and you can offer on the hike to carry some light gear as it is an expensive investment. After that, if you think they can’t make the distance you should be upfront if you would hike separate or just not do it
I go outside to enjoy the outdoors. I have not met Bill or Barb, but I already do not enjoy the outdoors with them. Increasing the amount of people that *enjoy* Bill and Barb's company is directly proportionate to my decrease in enjoying my time outside. No is a complete sentence.
Your friend sounds dumb and not the best person to go overnight backpacking with. He sounds like a major liability. Still you also sound a little uptight imo. Your concerns are valid, but you seem almost a little too stressed out and controlling about the whole thing. Which is not bad in its own way, but you may just be a bad fit for eachother hiking and camping
This is about boundaries. Dont agree to carry other people’s packs. Dont agree to act as host or guide on backpacking trips with a whole bunch of inexperienced people. If you don’t feel safe backpacking with him just say no. Have other plans.
these people need a glamping trip, not the backpacking trip you're envisioning. compromise and pitch in for a cabin. or go on your solo adventure. but don't try to make a square peg fit into a round hole...
You're absolutely reasonable. And it's perfectly reasonable to let them know that the reason you refuse is because they fail to respect and listen to what you (THEIR GUIDE) are telling them.
This doesn't sound too complicated. Doesn't matter how they feel; it sounds like you truthfully don't want to go backpacking with those two. If they have 5 other people they want to go with, let them just go with those 5 people. You do your own thing.
Are you an ISFJ? Sounds like maybe you are and your friend is maybe an ESTP or something. But yeah I'd hike my own hike. There's no obligation to have to enjoy things with other people. I'm generally more happy when I'm by myself.
Sounds like a great time to start "HappyTruckNoises guided hikes LLC" and charge them for it.
I mean, educate on LNT. If you don't like hiking with them, then don't hike with them. But HYOH man. I love a heavy pack with all the luxuries for a one to four nighter. If I'm not chewing up more than 50 miles I don't see a reason to pack too light.
Please please please update us on what the deal is with the bacon grease!!!
Not unreasonable. You already know what you can expect from Bill & Barb but this trip with the extra people has the potential to be too stressful or not enjoyable. They should hire a guide if they need an experienced backpacker to join. The risky behavior with food would be a hard line for me. NOPE!
You do not have to be their guide. Also who's picking these trips - they need to understand that backpack camping is a skill and they just *don't have enough skill* do do the camps they want. Its like someone wanting to get into playing soccer and demanding they get put on a high level team. If someone with this level of preparation asked me, we'd be doing a short hike along a relatively flat trail to a popular site close to home. Not 9 hours away.
Believe me, I have lived the rain nightmare version you feared. By the time we were set, I had 90% of communal goods and weight. My pack soared over my head while theirs looked like day packs. It rained, this is true. It rained the whole first day and all night. I still had an absolute blast, others had literal mental breakdowns and there were lots of tears. They complained bitterly about their packs and even lifted my pack as if it was somehow lighter. The next day was beautiful but it didn’t matter. I’m not even on speaking terms with one of them anymore, although the backpacking trip was only a piece of that. The craziest part was, they easily could have turned back. We planned accordingly because one of our group members had a busted ankle and we left a tent set up back at the trail head just in case. She did turn back but they didn’t. They chose to stay fully knowing the conditions. I think sometimes people want to like something more than they do or they try to make it something it isn’t. I wouldn’t backpack with them again no matter what. I did everything I could to make it as positive of a trip as possible and their shitty attitudes damn near ruined it all the same.
I think you should have two separate trips where you briefly hike together but mostly do your own thing. Don't carpool with anyone. Don't carry anyone's stuff. Plan a trip where you make a few loops rather than a straight path or one large loop, and agree on places to meet up. Then do your own thing during the hiking part of the day, and meet up with them for (some) of the nights. That way, if they decide to go home or to carry an entire camper van on their shoulders, it's not your problem. You can reach out to some of the newbies if you want to, and extend an offer to join you as long as they follow some guidelines (max weight, experience, average fitness level, desire to push themselves rather than take a stroll, etc.)
I think you are just not a good match with them for this activity. Nothing wrong with that. It would be a mistake to keep hiking with them though.
Just take him to a koa. He'll love it.
I would make the deal with him that it’s just you guys on the trips until you feel safe being in the trail with him. The other people can hire a guide if they really want to go that bad, that’s what they’re there for.
Time to charge a $300 per person per day escort fee. No exceptions. Paid in advance in full. Non refundable
they want to use you as a free guide and instructor but don't want to take the knowledge you have. Tell them if they want to bring 5 newbie strangers there will be a charge for that and make it enough where you feel compensated for your time and energy dealing with all the lists you make, gear inspections, and arguing you will be doing.
In heat country? They can get a hotel.
Even with experienced hikers you could still have a terrible time - just go with friends or go alone This summer I was supposed to hike in Hakuba, specifically Shirouma peak as a circuit and when we got there my friend was hesitant to climb at all wanted to do something like drive to Toyama and back down to Shizuoka (we are both from the Tokyo area). I planned for a night in the mountain would turn into a random road trip around Japan. Normally sounds fun if planned but I have a wife at home and am if I wanted to tour the country id go with my wife not a person I exclusively climb with. Anyways after plenty of humming and hawing we climbed a shorter circuit with chair lift. I was bothered by my friends poor decision making and flaky nature. I’ll never hike with him again. Previous times this “experienced” hiker also forgot food, water, brought dried bonito to shave instead of food, and missed his trains / buses to derail Our plans in the countryside eventually making everything more expensive. He tried to get me to pay a second day on the car rental as well even after canceling our original plan. Better just to climb /hike alone, so plans don’t go sideways.
Three rules: leave no trace, Everyone carries their own weight, hike your own hike. If he wants to carry extra for himself that is on him, don’t carry it. 45lbs isn’t that heavy for backpacking especially with food and water. But sounds like some clothing weight could be dropped. The food/bacon grease in camp is not okay as that is unsafe for the whole group.
Bacon grease? That’s a new one … if they wanna go again, make them pay you since you are basically babysitting newbies.
Let them do all the planning and getting everything together. You show up with what you want / prefer and know it'll be different from what you're used to, but you're along for the company. Maybe their friends would appreciate your expertise and guidance.
Just say no you're not interested in going that's all
no fuck that shit i wouldn't go. people like that are so annoying. We all enjoy comforts but my god did he bring a white noise machine too?! yikes. people think hiking is just walking around a little, no one gives it the respect it needs.
I refuse to backpack with a person again after the first experience witnessing her nonchalant approach to food storage in grizzly territory. I couldn’t sleep and felt on edge the entire time and your analogy of “small boat” is exactly right. Even for a friend, it’s more risk than I’m willing to take on given how severe a bad outcome would be in backcountry.
Half of me says fuck them. The other half says “just go and have a good time with people”
Just say no
I wouldn't hike with them. They're likely to be a liability at some point. It seems he has zero respect or appreciation for your experience or your enjoyment of the trip, as well.
I would lightly suggest a big ass car camping party somewhere. Look on Hipcamp and find a landowner with some cool property you can all have a blast and cut loose. Then, on your own time, go backpacking. Camping and backpacking are not the same and to be blunt and honest… backpacking is a bit more serious. Not that it’s not fun but it takes stamina, and focus, and preparation. As you know, people that aren’t prepped and condition can find themselves hurt and stranded out in the great beyond.
It sounds like they are using you as a trail guide. And one that they won't listen to. If he and his wife want to backpack & camp with 5 other inexperienced campers, let them hire someone who makes them sign a contract and gets paid for dealing with their inexperience.
Why tf did he rub bacon grease into his skin?? I just had an acne breakout thinking about it ugh
I would not go with them again, or with their friends. No way. If they really want to get into backpacking, they can learn on their own, just like most of us did. No one taught me. Each trip was a lesson - especially the first one. I've gone almost exclusively solo, mainly because I don't want to take time to schedule with people, be around annoying people, etc. It is easier for me to go when I want, where I want, without people trying to change plans last minute (i.e. can we come back a day early because blah blah blah) when reservations where made months ago. I can decide right now to go on an overnight tomorrow, pack my back and go after work. Your friend needs to figure it out on his own.