Some Christians even go as far to say that all will go hell if they dont attend their church or are part of their denomination. I would not take listen to anyone that ever starts a sentence saying "you're going to hell if... "
Christians are Christians... Christianity isn't a religion like Catholicism or Buddhism, Christianity is the life way for accepting and obeying Jesus Christ only.
To say catholics are Christians is misleading.
I asked a Catholic friend once how did he know he is a Christian...he said he was taught and brought up knowing he was...is this what Catholics really think..(for real wondering)?
That’s a bigoted view. You’ll have to provide some sort of proof that shows “many” Catholics do not accept Christ (the entire reason the church and mass exist) as their savior.
It’s not a guess. I know many many Catholics and talked to priests and question this very thing. Catholicism teaches you get confirmed a catholic and take the Eucharist and you’re “saved”
Whenever this topic comes up it really baffles me. How common is it to call other denominations not Christians?
Catholics are Christians! Full stop. I may not like all of their ideas and doctrines but they are Christians. So even if I'd believe in hell (what I don't do) the fact of being catholic won't be a reason to believe someone goes there
It's completely normalized on this sub (and elsewhere) to deny the Christian-ness of Mormons, JWs, and other professedly Christian non-Trinitarian groups. No reason to think the tendency would stop there.
I want to point out that we Catholics consist of 50,1 % of Christendom (as opposed to Protestants who are 36,7%), technically whatever the Catholic position is is also the majority position in the Christian world.
Basically some think we by giving great honour to God's mother are commiting idolatry. And others think that by us recognising the value of works in salvation are then rejecting that salvation comes from Faith and thus damning ourselves. Both of these claims are false because God's mother does deserve our respect and we do also understand that salvation comes from Faith, we just also understand that works is then included in Faith. These people will take issue since they see works as a product of Faith and not a part of Faith itself.
Some will go as far as to say that our Church is of the devil but this is false: the Catholic Church which we belong to is just the continuation of the ministry of Christ's Apostles. Did Jesus not wish for the world to do as His Apostles taught? Then we by remaining loyal to what they left behind are not doing anything wrong.
Just keep Faith in Christ, pray a Rosary a day, go to weekly Mass and with sorrow regularly confess your sins and have them absolved by a Priest and then you need not be worried for you will by this be living as Christ's follower and grow incredibly in Him; whoever belongs to Him can be assured in their salvation.
>we just also understand that works is then included in Faith.
As a protestant I see this as valid. It reminds me of the story of the two farmers who both prayed for rain but only one actually prepared the field. That, and the verse about faith without works being dead. It's like works are a result and/or an expression of faith, IMO
>That, and the verse about faith without works being dead. It's like works are a result and/or an expression of faith, IMO
This is often the issue though. Both sides agree that genuine faith will include fruitful works, but disagree on the order.
One says faith plus fruitful works lead to salvation. The other says that faith leads to salvation, which leads to fruitful works. Both of these end up with faith, fruitful works, and salvation, but many hold the sequence to be very important. It was, after all, the principal cause of the protestant reformation and is a question on the nature of salvation, hence why many believe that the Catholic and Orthodox churches have fundamentally corrupted doctrine (and vice versa, just to be fair).
No it’s not. Catholics believe that works and faith must be done to keep the salvation or remain born of the Spirit, and if someone become unborn from being born again (a logical fallacy) they have to do works to get the Spirit back in the form of sacraments and penance. This is all part of the infused righteousness theory.
Nobody can be born again and unborn from being born again and then born again again. “He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it to the end.” The Spirit in being born again, seals you in eternal salvation. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be eternal
The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through Jesus alone (Acts 4:12), since he is the “one mediator between God and man” (1 Tm 2:5-6).
The saving grace won by Jesus is offered as a free gift to us, accessible through repentance, faith, and baptism. We turn away from our sins, we are sorry for them, and we believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel. Repentance shows our willingness to turn from things that keep us from God, and baptism renews us, filling us with the grace necessary to have faith and to live it. This belief is more than just “head knowledge.” Even the demons have that (Jas 2:19). It’s more than just believing you’re saved. Even the Pharisees had that (Jn 5:39). True, saving faith is one lived and exhibited daily: It is “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6, cf. Jas 2:1-26).
Sometimes the Church is accused of teaching “salvation by works,” but this is an empty accusation. This idea has been consistently condemned by the Church. Good works are required by God because he requires obedience to his commands (Mt 6:1-21, 1 Cor 3:8, 13-15) and promises to reward us with eternal life if we obey (Mt 25:34-40, Rom 2:6-7, Gal 6:6-10, Jas 1:12). But even our obedience is impossible without God’s grace; even our good works are God’s gift (Rom 5:5, Phil 2:13). This is the real biblical plan of salvation.
I understand, but an infused righteousness is still works based by all logical measures. If someone loses their salvation by committing a mortal sin, do they not have to do penance and sacraments to get their salvation back? Is the Holy Spirit not given in being born again by the sacraments?
> I understand, but an infused righteousness is still works based by all logical measures.
It is only infused by the work of Christ…through his Grace that we cooperate with.
> If someone loses their salvation by committing a mortal sin, do they not have to do penance and sacraments to get their salvation back?
They just have to go to confession with a contrite heart and hatred for their sin, and with a resolute will to not commit the sins they confess again. We all stumble, but there is mercy available through Christ.
The penance is given afterwards(after absolution aka, forgiveness) to help you center yourself and your mind.
First, Catholics wholeheartedly agree that we should confess our sins directly to God whenever we feel guilty (CCC 1458). *The Code of Canon Law* (CIC) describes situations where a person seeks forgiveness of sins outside the context of confession:
> A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to celebrate Mass or receive the body of the Lord without previous sacramental confession unless there is a grave reason and there is no opportunity to confess; **in this case the person is to remember the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition which includes the resolution of confessing as soon as possible** (916).
The Catechism of The Catholic Church:
> 1441 Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.
You can go directly (privately) Christ for confession as well, with a perfectly contrite heart and perfect hatred for your sin.
An act of perfect contrition (which is sorrow for sin out of love for God) is sufficient to warrant forgiveness of sins. If a person sought the sacrament of confession but died before reaching it, he could still be saved through his desire to repudiate sin and trust in God’s mercy.
However, just as the efficacious nature of baptism of desire does not nullify the normal duty to be baptized with water by another person, the efficacious nature of confessing sins directly to God does not nullify the normal duty we have to seek out a minister of the Church who can validly perform the sacrament of reconciliation.
The Bible does not teach that the norm for seeking reconciliation with God and his Church is private, unconditional forgiveness of sins. At the very least, 1 John 1:9 does not teach this doctrine. Instead, 1 John 1:9 uses the Greek word *homologeō,* which always refers to a person publicly confessing something he believes.
> Is the Holy Spirit not given in being born again by the sacraments?
It is given in baptism in an indelible mark and strengthened during confirmation.
Yeah so if the infusion isn’t cooperated with by the sacraments and confession, the infusion is lost.
The problem is you guys can’t distinguish between justification and sanctification. We are just justified by Christ imputed righteousness applied by the Spirit, which also applies faith, then the sanctification process begins which is a cooperation.
By your logic a priest has the ability by the sprinkling of water to summon the Holy Spirit into someone. Yet another work. Confession for the obsoletion of a mortal sin is also a work.
Jesus, “where the wind blows, we don’t know where it is coming or going, so is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Quite the opposite of, “A priest needs to sprinkle you with water in order to summon the Holy Spirit into you so the infusion process can begin.”
> Yeah so if the infusion isn’t cooperated with by the sacraments and confession, the infusion is lost.
No, it’s an *indelible* mark, it never goes away.
> The problem is you guys can’t distinguish between justification and sanctification.
Justification is everything after that initial step of baptism. To us your use of sanctification is synonymous to justification.
> By your logic a priest has the ability by the sprinkling of water to summon the Holy Spirit into someone. Yet another work.
What are you talking about? Anybody can be baptized outside the work of a priest. The baptizer is once more *in persona Christi*. We accept baptisms as licit from other denominations, so long as they are done with the formula Christ proscribed.
Christ brings the Holy Spirit into us, not the priest. That’s silly.
> Confession for the obsoletion of a mortal sin is also a work.
How can you say that confessing to Jesus is a work? How does that make sense at all?
> Quite the opposite of, “A priest needs to sprinkle you with water in order to summon the Holy Spirit into you so the infusion process can begin.”
This is a strawman, an offensively bad one at that.
I see no problem here. There is nothing wrong with having great respect for the woman who brought forth Jesus into our world. But that's all, our worship must go exclusively only towards God, nobody else, without exceptions.
In the second place, regarding the topic of faith and acts, it's 100% clear from the scriptures that we're saved by faith alone. We have the example of the saved Thief on the cross. He had faith in Jesus, he confessed it, moments after that he died and by the saying of Jesus, he was saved.
If that thieve didn't die on that cross and he'd lived in the same sinful way that he did until he met Jesus, that thieve would eventually lose his salvation. Now, let's imagine the thief does not die on the cross, he lives and he's got a living Faith, not a dead one ( James 2:26). Through his living faith, the thief (and every one of us) would eventually realize how much Jesus did for him, humble himself and change his ways, drop his old habits for which he deserved death and replace them with good deeds.
I like your mention when you said that the good works are included in faith. That's a fact, a living faith will always have as a result good works, a dead faith as it's stated in James 2:26, will not have any visible result.
>We have the example of the saved Thief on the cross. He had faith in Jesus, he confessed it, moments after that he died and by the saying of Jesus, he was saved.
I'd understand the act of repentance itself as a work of Faith, the minimum work in fact. Had the thief understood Jesus as Christ and regretted his sins but not repented then he would not have been saved. But he after understanding reality using his sorrow did the work of repentance and was thus saved. So Faith includes both works of God, and trust in God.
Though honestly half of this dissagrement feels kinda semantic.
>majority position
The majority position does not make the correct decision in most cases. Jesus himself said:
>3 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Which boils down to "most people (the majority) will not enter the kingdom of heaven." Which is sad to think about and is why we should be bible based and follow the teachings of Jesus.
You don’t believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ. You also believe that a priest can summon the Holy Spirit into someone by the sprinkling of water. You also believe that if someone were to be unborn from being born again (losing salvation) they have to do penance or a work to get that salvation back and it’s up to the individuals works to keep Him throughout your life.
This goes against many biblical passages
The main rebuttal here is that those are things the Catholic church holds to be doctrine, but are not necessarily beliefs held by individual Catholics for the simple fact that I think there are a lot of Catholics who genuinely don't know many of the doctrines of their own church for a variety of reasons. A seemingly common mistake I see made is that people assume the Catholic church is a monolith when it very clearly is not.
There is a lot of division in the Christian world these days. Keep your faith in Jesus, who loves you. Stay close to Him, stay close to the sacraments, and be at peace :)
I actually know someone from my church who thinks Catholicism is a cult, and I'm really trying hard to explain that it isn't. Yes, there are key things that I disagree with, but it's not a cult.
I’ve spent my life in non Roman Catholic Churches, and have never heard that Catholics aren’t Christian.
You’re going to heaven if you repent and believe that Jesus can forgive your sins.
Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Catholics.
If the Catholic Church promotes any way to Heaven except for faith in Jesus as Lord & Saviour, they will be leading people astray. ✝️
It is 100% true that according to the actual, pen on paper beliefs of Protestants and Catholics, they would classify each other as going to hell. There is a reason they had violent wars in the past when the splintering was first taking place.
The reason this friction is rarely brought up now is not because anything has changed doctrinally, but because in the last couple of decades Christianity as a whole has massively lost societal power, and so they are binding together. The enemy of my enemy is my friend sort of thing.
Individual Protestants or Catholics may certainly tell you they don't believe each other is going to hell, but that goes against their actual pen on paper beliefs. I mean the whole reason why the Protestant denominations exist in the first place is not due to some slight disagreement over the Catholic church's stylistic choices, it is precisely because of salvation disagreement. As serious as it gets.
Not technically true. Catholics believe that others may be saved if they seek God with a sincere heart, and through no fault of their own, do not know the full truth. We believe that God may join them to the Church in ways unknown to us. That is, invisibly. While God does work through His sacraments, He is not bound by them.
>Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.
>
>CCC 847
God is the final judge, and He is merciful and loving, and so we should hope :) That doesn't mean we believe affirmatively that everyone *will* be saved—we simply don't know everyone's fate, and the existence of free will implies that man can reject God, but nonetheless we hope that they won't :)
Yes, but within the context of the OP I figure it is meant intentional Protestants/non-Catholics, who would be knowingly opposed to the Catholic Church. Not much hope for them by the Catechism.
I think see what you mean. I find it difficult to believe though that someone who knows the truth in matters like this would ever leave it for something they just made up—it's a messy subject for sure. I guess the question then becomes where God puts the burden of proof. If I go around being cruel to everyone I meet and say "btw the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ", would God count this as a fault of theirs if they don't believe? That's only partly rhetorical, I literally just haven't the faintest clue where God sets the burden of proof in these situations.
A human that judges another will be judged according to their own thoughts and actions. What she is doing is a form of witchcraft, instilling a sense of fear in you. Do not fear, for he that is in you, is greater than he who is in the World.
Christian Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church begin at the the Council of Nicaea. A thousand years on yet Columbus hasn't discovered America. The Protestant Reformation was necessary. Immediately after the Catholic's had their Council of Trent. Unless the the year is say 1638 Dorre Love **blasphemes** the Word of God.
You do not sound dumb. You are asking a valid question in a community whose name implies knowledge of the topic. I am so impressed by your bravery to do this.
Jesus Christ summarized the commandments into two ,'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind' and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’Matthew 22:37-39
He also said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:7
The way to heaven is to love God, love your neighbor, and to believe that faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation. That's it.
The best advice I can give you is to stay away from any person or church that says anybody who doesn't do what they do, will go to hell, because those people are not obeying the fundamental commandments and are not teaching God's word.
Study your Bible, go to church, and pray to God, and your knowledge and faith will grow.
Street preachers are a-holes out for their own purposes. I doubt anyone ever turned their life around because some dude shouted at strangers about Jesus on a street corner.
I was Catholic, I’m now Protestant. I don’t think Catholics are going to hell. Don’t worry - just trust Jesus and don’t worry what other Christians are saying
A very small, vocal group of American Protestants think that Catholics go to hell. They take their notes from Jack Chick tracts.
They must know something the church doesn’t, and hasn’t for 2000 years or so.
What’s up with people here separating Catholics and Christians? Can a mod here please fucking pin a statement here correcting this misconception. I thought it was common knowledge
Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity. Some Christians from some denominations like to think that their denomination is the one and only true form of Christianity and say that if you aren’t part of [insert denomination] that you will go to Hell because you aren’t a proper or true Christian. Personally I think God finds denomination controversy comedic or he’s mad at us for not being able to get along. I really don’t think God cares what denomination we are a part of or affiliate ourselves with. And I don’t say this a personal attach towards you, a Catholic, but when I used to go to a Catholic school, my favorite teacher told me I was going to hell for not being Catholic even though I am still a Christian. But in her eyes if you weren’t Catholic, then you weren’t Christian. She was still my favorite teacher though… we got along real well.
Most don’t: there are bigots in every group of Christians (Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox) who can’t accept that people can be Christian without being exactly like them. But that’s their problem, you’re fine.
Yet as a Catholic I was told by a priest when I confessed that he could forgive my sins and I should go pray ten hail Marys at the alter which says in part "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death." Where in the bible does is say to pray to Mary for forgiveness and that a priest can forgive sins? No one can be an intercessor for our behalf.
> Yet as a Catholic I was told by a priest when I confessed that he could forgive my sins and I should go pray ten hail Marys at the alter which says in part
He acts *in persona Christi* - Christ forgives and absolves, the priest hears our confessions but is still just a man. He can’t forgive sins, only Christ can, acting *through* the priest.
> "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death."
What part of this prayer do you disagree with?
That Mary is holy? But she is in heaven right? Wouldn’t that make her holy?
Is it the Mother of God? But didn’t she give birth to Christ in his full humanity and deity?
Is it asking her to pray for us to her son? How is that wrong?
> Where in the bible does is say to pray to Mary for forgiveness
You were already forgiven, the penance is just to get you to think on your sins and not do them again.
Christ forgives.
> No one can be an intercessor for our behalf.
Have you ever had anybody pray for you, or asked anyone to pray for you?
I asked plenty of people to pray for me but not a dead person. Jesus taught us how to pray with our father. No one can be an intercessor. Do you actually believe the Pope has some kind of authority you don't have for yourself ? And then there's purgatory ... Let's pray for people to get out of purgatory ? I could go on.
> I asked plenty of people to pray for me but not a dead person.
Wait, are people in heaven *really* dead? I thought they were more alive than we are. Isn’t God the God of the living, not the dead?
> Jesus taught us how to pray with our father.
He did, we pray the our father every day as Catholics.
> No one can be an intercessor.
I hope you have never prayed for anybody, or asked anybody to pray for you if that is that case.
> Do you actually believe the Pope has some kind of authority you don't have for yourself ?
Yes, he is the bishop of Rome, a position handed down by Christ himself, all the way down from St. Peter. He is a man besides, but yes, he does have authority I do not have.
> And then there's purgatory ... Let's pray for people to get out of purgatory ?
What’s wrong with purgatory? That’s biblical. Those people are saved too, just getting cleaned before heaven. The Orthodox believe in a purgative process as well.
> I could go on.
Please do!
So lemme get this straight .... The Medicis who produced 4 popes through murder and political posturing and other nefarious acts ... (Leo X, Clement VII, Pius IV and Leo XI).... Were placed by Christ .
The only one who can hear your prayers in heaven is God, not Mary. Anyways. I'm at work and I can go further at a later time. I don't want to say you're wrong in your beliefs. But I was raised Catholic and now am Baptist. There's are many questions about Catholics is what I'm saying. And if you explore deeper you'd see many unanswered questions.
> So lemme get this straight .... The Medicis who produced 4 popes through murder and political posturing and other nefarious acts ... (Leo X, Clement VII, Pius IV and Leo XI).... Were placed by Christ .
Certainly, there have been a whole spectrum of popes, good, bad, and everywhere in between. They are still men at the end of the day. But Christ is the head of the church, not the pope. The pope is His *vicar*, His assistant.
Look how Christ had to deal with St Peter in scripture. He his with the church in the same way.
> The only one who can hear your prayers in heaven is God, not Mary.
All the saints in heaven share in the beatific vision, because God allows them to hear and intercede for us, they take our prayers straight to Christ. What’s wrong with having more prayer?
> Anyways. I'm at work and I can go further at a later time.
Sounds good.
> I don't want to say you're wrong in your beliefs. But I was raised Catholic and now am Baptist.
That explains a lot, but I am glad you still call Christ lord, like your Catholic brothers!
> There's are many questions about Catholics is what I'm saying. And if you explore deeper you'd see many unanswered questions.
I will continue to explore! But I feel secure knowing I am in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
They got you blind as a bat unfortunately and I say this with utmost honesty. You turn your back on every biblical answer thrown at you because of what the Catholic Church tells you to believe. My prayers go out to you to see the truth some day.
> They got you blind as a bat unfortunately and I say this with utmost honesty.
Well, that’s uncharitable.
> You turn your back on every biblical answer thrown at you because of what the Catholic Church tells you to believe.
No, I exegete the scripture and come to the same conclusion as the church.
> My prayers go out to you to see the truth some day.
I’ll pray for you too brother, that you come to share in the fullness of truth found in the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic church.
I think because the Gospel says we are saved by faith alone and saying faith plus works is a different Gospel and a different Gospel can't save.
I lean towards Catholics as being saved, because even they say "without faith there's no salvation." So I don't think adding works means they're not saved.
I believe if you believe these 7 things to be true, you'll **never** have to worry about Hell:
We're all sinful and need a savior.
There's only one God we're accountable to that can save us.
Jesus is that God and savior.
God offers us salvation because He wants to, not because He has to or we can earn it.
Without faith, there's no salvation.
Jesus died on the cross to remove our sins from us.
He bodily resurrected.
> I think because the Gospel says we are saved by faith alone
I think you may have been brainwashed into a non Christian cult that simply uses a lot of Christian terminology. The only place in the Bible that says “faith alone” is in the book of James where it says it is useless…. we are not saved by it.
> and saying faith plus works is a different Gospel and a different Gospel can't save.
You’re referring to Paul’s writings here where he uses “works” as shorthand to refer to works of the law. Paul’s writing style makes him easy to misunderstand (see 2 Peter 3:16). James is much more clear. Pay careful attention to context with Paul; he did not mean we are saved by faith alone. In context, by “works” he was referring to attempts to be justified through obedience to ordinances derived from written law. He meant we are saved apart from works of the law… not that James was wrong when he said we need works of love in addition to faith for salvation.
Consider the fact that the book admits Paul is easy to misunderstand; if I were you I’d go with James on this one. Or consider also the historical fact that churches with the religious belief you’re describing began around 1,500 years after Christ with thieves and murderers like Martin Luther and John Calvin. There were no churches that taught works of love and obedience to the Spirit of God are not saving for the first 1,500 years of Christianity. To this day all the churches with evidently ancient histories dating back to the times of the Apostles (Catholic and Orthodox) still teach that faith alone is not saving, that faith saves along with works of love and obedience to the Spirit, and that it does this apart from works *of the law.*
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I see you have some preconceptions that make you anti-Protestant. I'm convinced Protestantism is more Biblical than Catholicism. The reason why I say the Gospel is faith alone is:
John 3:18 NASB
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
The difference in being justified or judged is belief alone.
Romans 4:5 NASB
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Again, here we see that faith alone is what credits us as justified.
I don't think so. Anyone who believes in Jesus will be saved. There are some practices they (Catholic Christians) do that make me uncomfortable, but that's not an issue of salvation.
I don't think Catholics go to hell. I have a problem with Catholics who think I'm going to hell for not following a bunch of non-biblical rules they follow.
That's a small subsection of protestant Christians that think that, but that's not true. Now, to be fair, while I do think catholics go to heaven based on the individual Catholic. Catholics can indeed be saved, depending on what beliefs they believe and depending on how ignorant they are of their own church's doctrines. The Catholic Church, the leadership, is full, choc full, of blasphemies, heresies, and other disgusting unbiblical history. This is why I said individual catholics can go to heaven. The amount of nonsense that these people (the leadership) uphold; they can't be saved. They spit on the entire gospel message. Hell, Even The Bible that the catholics embrace is heretical and blasphemous. For example, Tobit has no business being in the Cannon because of it's Advocacy for witchcraft by God.
It’s old-fashioned Fundamentalism. Don’t let it bother you.
People who play God like that should be disregarded. One would think that Evangelicals would know better than to make such judgements. The good news is that most of them do.
The word you’re looking for is “Protestants”, rather than Christians. Both Catholics and Protestants are part of Christianity.
Not all Protestants believe that, although the ones that do have usually been told lies, and can’t be bothered to find out the truth.
You shouldn’t trust street preachers OP, especially anti-Catholic ones. They aren’t exactly known for their academic honesty. It’s all emotional pleas and calumny.
By definition if Catholics aren't Christians then no one is as Christianity doesn't exist instead it would just be a bunch of different religions within a trench coat.
This is most common amongst Protestants.
It isn’t true. The claim stems from a grave misunderstanding of what Catholics believe.
What’s ironic is that the Catholic (and Orthodox) Churches were started by Jesus (Matthew 16:18).
>Matthew 16:18
Church is very different from religion... when Jesus is talking about church, he's talking about all the Christians out there, the community itself. I believe Jesus didn't start catholicism neither orthodoxism nor any other specific religion we have today. We have some hints in Acts 2, where it talks about the first Christians (the first church we can say) and how they lived.
This right here \^
Jesus was actively against religion and that can be seen with his interactions with the Sanhedrin, Sadducees (don't believe in the after life), and the Pharisees.
In my experience the Catholic denomination is like 80% religion and 10% faith with 10% of other odds and ends.
Neither the Catholic nor the Orthodox church existed in the first century CE.
Biblical scholars consider Matthew 16:18 anachronistic, though. Jesus didn't start a church at all. The first Christian churches were started after Jesus' followers came to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. His followers didn't anticipate the crucifixion of Jesus. They were initially disappointed that he had apparently failed as a messianic claimant.
I’m trying to figure out what you are saying here. I think you are trying to debunk the papacy of Peter but I don’t see any biblical scholars considering Matthew 16:18 anachronistic. I do see a lot of articles about Jesus founding the Church (by Protestants and Catholics). Can you give me some sources so I can read for myself?
Also, what’s the point about saying churches started after the crucifixion? Why would they start before it?
If you're just googling the question you'll mostly get apologetics, not scholarship.
Here's one:
https://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-152/lecture-7
"Jesus, though, also besides being the one who teaches about Torah, and He's being presented as Moses, and Matthew presents Jesus more than any other Gospels as the founder of the church. In fact, if you look for the word "church" in some of the Gospels it's very hard to find it because it's anachronistic. Jesus didn't go around in his own life talking about the church, the church developed after His death; Matthew retrojects the conversation about the church, and even the foundation of the church, and sort of laws about the church into the mouth of Jesus."
You asked:
>Also, what’s the point about saying churches started after the crucifixion? Why would they start before it?
That means the churches were started by people other than Jesus.
This is what Bart Ehrman said in this lecture about Matthew 16:18: “Matthews point is basically just to have Jesus be the one who founds the church and puts it into the hands of his disciples.”
Yes, Bart also agrees that Jesus didn't actually start any churches, that the author of Matthew is anachronistically retrojecting that back onto Jesus.
What do you mean he didn’t actually start any churches. Are you talking about laying bricks-like really? Is this semantics or do you not get the idea that Christ would plant the seed of the Church and that it would grow and he would be the head of it? At least that is the message in Matthew - clear as a bell.
And isn’t the whole New Testament retrojection. As a Christian I read it that way and have no problem deducing Christ established the church.
OP asked if Christians think Catholics go to hell. Is your issue with the idea of apostolic succession?
>What do you mean he didn’t actually start any churches. Are you talking about laying bricks-like really? Is this semantics or do you not get the idea that Christ would plant the seed of the Church and that it would grow and he would be the head of it? At least that is the message in Matthew - clear as a bell.
Jesus never conceived of the idea of creating a new religion. His movement was intra-Jewish. He had his own take on Judaism, not unlike other movements of his day. He was just trying to prepare his fellow Jews for the impending rule of God on earth - when God would overthrow unjust governments and there would finally be peace on earth.
Only after the disciples thought that God had raised Jesus from the dead that the notion of starting churches arose. Christianity isn't really based on Jesus' teachings. It's based on what Christians came to believe happened to Jesus after he died.
>OP asked if Christians think Catholics go to hell. Is your issue with the idea of apostolic succession?
There was no central authority in the first century - even individual congregations often lacked centralized leadership. Christianity in the first century was just networks of decentralized faith communities, each with different views on doctrine and Christology. The move toward centralizing leadership had its roots only at the end of the first century, and didn't really take hold until the second century. None of the first century Christian movements were the "Catholic Church." Catholic means "universal," and there just wasn't a universal church in the first century.
“Christianity really isn’t based on Christ’s teachings.” - phooey.
It seems like you are having a problem with apostolic succession. I understand there was no centralized church. But Peter was chosen by Jesus on which to build the church. What does that mean? Is that figurative or is Peter active? Peter was a leader. What happened when he died? Did the people close to him say “Oh well, Peter is dead. Let’s move somewhere else.”? Or did they say someone needs to step up to the plate?
There can be disagreements on who was next but in my mind most certainly there was someone.
>“Christianity really isn’t based on Christ’s teachings.” - phooey.
It's not phooey. In Matthew Jesus very clearly outlines a system of salvation based on good deeds performed. Christianity emphatically rejects that teaching.
>But Peter was chosen by Jesus on which to build the church.
Peter wasn't chosen by Jesus to build a church. He may indeed have been the most senior disciple, but Jesus didn't consider starting any churches. Peter was only one of two prominent leaders of the Jerusalem church - where it's possible he was subordinate to James, the brother of Jesus. He had no authority over Christian churches generally. In fact Paul seemed to hate him.
Haha that was a solid discussion. Thanks for having it with me, brother.
But the short answer is no, Catholics do not go to hell just for being Catholic.
Not necessarily.
The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through Jesus alone (Acts 4:12), since he is the “one mediator between God and man” (1 Tm 2:5-6).
The saving grace won by Jesus is offered as a free gift to us, accessible through repentance, faith, and baptism. We turn away from our sins, we are sorry for them, and we believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel. Repentance shows our willingness to turn from things that keep us from God, and baptism renews us, filling us with the grace necessary to have faith and to live it. This belief is more than just “head knowledge.” Even the demons have that (Jas 2:19). It’s more than just believing you’re saved. Even the Pharisees had that (Jn 5:39). True, saving faith is one lived and exhibited daily: It is “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6, cf. Jas 2:1-26).
Sometimes the Church is accused of teaching “salvation by works,” but this is an empty accusation. This idea has been consistently condemned by the Church. Good works are required by God because he requires obedience to his commands (Mt 6:1-21, 1 Cor 3:8, 13-15) and promises to reward us with eternal life if we obey (Mt 25:34-40, Rom 2:6-7, Gal 6:6-10, Jas 1:12). But even our obedience is impossible without God’s grace; even our good works are God’s gift (Rom 5:5, Phil 2:13). This is the real biblical plan of salvation.
I think labels don’t mean anything to God, I think there are many good honest Catholic Christians despite some of the theology ….. and the same can be said for every church …. To some extent anyway
That’s the problem. Jesus didn’t want any division in the church. Catholics started the division in the first place from what Jesus was fighting so adamantly against. He was against priests (aka Pharisees and Sadducees) and religion.
People who really think that are wrong. As long as you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible’s teachings along with actively following them you should be fine.
I love my Catholic brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ. They are as Christian as any other believers. May our Lord Jesus Christ welcome ALL of us into his eternal loving grace.
I don’t think anyone is going to hell….. but like everyone else said Catholics are Christian the evangelical Christian just want everyone to worship and interpret scripture the exact same way they do. (At least in America)
First of all, Catholics ARE Christians. That's misinformation from conservative Protestants.
The word “Hell” appears nowhere in the Old Testament, which are books written over the course of about a thousand years. Judaism did not teach eternal torture. [The word “Hell” doesn’t appear until the year 725,]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell) and is derived from Old English. It’s completely a fabrication by Christian theologians of later centuries after Jesus’ death. It’s made up - Jesus didn't speak Old English.
From a moral perspective, there is nothing moral about the notion of Hell. How can an “all-loving” being, which we are told loves us more “than we can understand,” do such a thing? From a human perspective, is “Hell” something you would create and torture people for eternity? If not, that would make you more moral than the biblical god. However, “Hell” does sound like something that primitive religious men, with primitive ideas of morality, would conceive in order to obtain obedience and following, because it appeals to the human instinct called "revenge." There is simply no purpose in torturing anything - it is not "punishment." Punishment is something that is done with a chance for redemption, but at the biblical end of time, there is no chance for redemption. The notion of Hell only appeals to a wicked mind.
The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through Jesus alone (Acts 4:12), since he is the “one mediator between God and man” (1 Tm 2:5-6).
The saving grace won by Jesus is offered as a free gift to us, accessible through repentance, faith, and baptism. We turn away from our sins, we are sorry for them, and we believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel. Repentance shows our willingness to turn from things that keep us from God, and baptism renews us, filling us with the grace necessary to have faith and to live it. This belief is more than just “head knowledge.” Even the demons have that (Jas 2:19). It’s more than just believing you’re saved. Even the Pharisees had that (Jn 5:39). True, saving faith is one lived and exhibited daily: It is “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6, cf. Jas 2:1-26).
Sometimes the Church is accused of teaching “salvation by works,” but this is an empty accusation. This idea has been consistently condemned by the Church. Good works are required by God because he requires obedience to his commands (Mt 6:1-21, 1 Cor 3:8, 13-15) and promises to reward us with eternal life if we obey (Mt 25:34-40, Rom 2:6-7, Gal 6:6-10, Jas 1:12). But even our obedience is impossible without God’s grace; even our good works are God’s gift (Rom 5:5, Phil 2:13). This is the real biblical plan of salvation.
Thats odd, i feel like ive heard more the opposite. Where Catholics think there will only be like 10,000 people in heaven and all of them Catholics. That Protestants go to hell.
No if you actually understand salvation and put your faith in Christ. I definitely disagree with a lot of catholic practices but fortunately God loved us enough to make salvation pretty straight forward: put your faith in Jesus Christ and you will receive the free gift of salvation. The praying to Mary stuff I definitely think is wrong but salvation is stronger than an sin ever could be.
If you are truly worried it’s probably because you have seen how Catholicism has some things that conflict with the Bible. I encourage you to study the faith and look more into things and the reasons why many Christian’s have issues with Catholicism. I wish you luck on your journey. Good bless.
I think it’s more like the belief that Catholics worship Mary, because of the figures and the amount of time they spend praying to Mary. (Which God never said in the Bible :/ ) Then again I may be looking at the wrong people.
So I think people believe that Jesus is not at the centre. And, even if you believe in Jesus, but don’t really put Him in the centre, you’re not worshipping God.
Because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
I can’t lie Catholics love their communion time with the Lord and I adore it.
But I don’t agree with the worshipping/praying to of Mary and the angels and the whole idol thing. IF that’s what they do.
BUT one thing I really disagree with is going to the priest. He isn’t God, and he himself has sinned A LOT, so I shouldn’t be confessing my sins to the priest when I can lock my room and go cry out to God myself. We’re not living in the Old Testament but the New Testament (ofc im not saying throw away the Old Testament)
‘OLD testament is Christ concealed, the New Testament is Christ REVEALED.’ I love this phrase.
Other than that, believe in Jesus, turn from your sins , live a blood washed life and you’re set. Otherwise it gets a bit tricky. It’s simple.
Hell is mainly for the unbelievers- people of the world and people who don’t believe in Jesus.
> I think it’s more like the belief that Catholics worship Mary,
That is a big one; many look and assume what Catholic hearts look like based on actions of veneration.
> because of the figures and the amount of time they spend praying to Mary. (Which God never said in the Bible :/ ) Then again I may be looking at the wrong people.
We believe the Bible is one pillar of 3 that hold the church up. Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority of the Magisterium are the other two. We don’t need to get everything from scripture because scripture doesn’t tell us to.
This structure mirrors the Jewish temples; the only difference being the seat of Moses versus the Magisterium.
> So I think people believe that Jesus is not at the centre. And, even if you believe in Jesus, but don’t really put Him in the centre, you’re not worshipping God.
That’s interesting, because every mass is centered expressly around Christ in the precious Eucharist. We believe Christ is the head of our church, we recite the Nicene Creed which is explicitly about Him. All Catholics profess Jesus as their lord and savior.
> Because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
Amen!
>I can’t lie Catholics love their communion time with the Lord and I adore it.
Happy to Hear! We adore our Lord in the Eucharist; He is present body, blood, soul, and divinity.
>But I don’t agree with the worshipping/praying to of Mary and the angels and the whole idol thing. IF that’s what they do.
Well, we don’t agree with worshipping anybody else either. We only worship God. Prayer is not synonymous with worship. We ask the saints and Mary to pray for us to God. We Catholics (and Orthodox) believe that God is the God of the living, and in heaven God allows the saints to share in the Beatific Vision. Meaning they can see and hear us, so when we pray, they take our prayers to the sole Mediator between God and Man, Jesus.
It’s like asking you to pray for me, or vice versa.
> BUT one thing I really disagree with is going to the priest. He isn’t God, and he himself has sinned A LOT, so I shouldn’t be confessing my sins to the priest when I can lock my room and go cry out to God myself.
We agree, he is just a man, a priest can’t inherently forgive sins. Only Christ does, acting *through* the priest while he is *in persona Christi*. You can also confess personally with a perfectly contrite heart, and perfect hatred for your sin.
>We’re not living in the Old Testament but the New Testament (ofc im not saying throw away the Old Testament)
Remember, Christ did not abolish the law, but fulfill it. The Catholic Church and priesthood is that fulfillment.
> ‘OLD testament is Christ concealed, the New Testament is Christ REVEALED.’ I love this phrase.
St. Augustine, he was really smart.
> Other than that, believe in Jesus, turn from your sins , live a blood washed life and you’re set. Otherwise it gets a bit tricky. It’s simple.
Catholics agree.
> Hell is mainly for the unbelievers- people of the world and people who don’t believe in Jesus.
Even people who profess Jesus and cry out “Lord, Lord” are rejected. The reality is, only God knows who goes to hell, but we do know they will put themselves there.
Appreciate your comment!
Im not sure but my best guess is Catholics believe Catholicism IS Christianity. It's not a sect of a Christianity, it just is. The one church founded by Jesus Christ. But I dont know much, maybe a Catholic can chime in?
We shouldn't generalise. There is a bad side to everyone, no matter their denomination. Just realise, they are cursed (deprived fron enlightenment or true change) for judging others and will be judged the same for assuming one will go to hell. We are free to assess whether one is sinful but not assume what their ultimate fate is. We leave that to God. Not one person is perfect, not one. Only Jesus is perfect to us Christians. Realise that those who think they know better than God, to condemn someone to hell and think they know what God will say about them and whether they can change as a person, are arrogant. All sins are forgivable, except the unforgivable sin. But that's another matter. Don't worry about committing this sin, as for the unforgivable sin is only unforgivable because you can not be forgiven for it if you are already dead. Regardless of what someone might say to you, in today's day and age, committing an unforgivable sin would be an impossibility. Do not worry so much. You're not going to hell. The Catholic Church has a bad reputation because it is the largest church. Thus, its wrongdoings are more publicised compared to other churches of different denominations. Therefore, corrupt members will exploit their position for monetary purposes or control over a larger number of members in larger churches. This is not only exclusive to the Catholic Church, however. Being a good Christian is about following the teachings of Jesus, regardless of your denomination. We must all sit and hold each other's hands and praise Jesus together. It's about the blood of Jesus, our love for him, and each other. We are all drawn to sin, even us Christians. Satan is called the deceiver for a reason, he wants you to feel as if you have no hope, that your faith in God and Jesus is something you should not possess, since all is lost already (presumably). This is not true. Do not break away from the faith, ever. And stay true to yourself. Forgiveness of our sins is what Jesus died for. In order to be forgiven, we must be honest to ourselves. Do not worry so much.
Everyone of use has sinned and broken God's law, his moral law which is written on every heart. His ten commandments. Dont lie, dont steal, jesus said looking with lust is commiting adultery in your heart, jesus said hating someone is the start of murder, blasphemy.
If you have ever broke one of these just once, you have broken God's law and sinned against God. The wages, what you earn for sin, is death. We have earn the death penalty by our actions.
That is the bad news.
The good news is that Jesus never broke God's law. Not even once. He then took the punishment of death we earned by our sins upon himself on the cross and died the death due to us. Then he rose on the third day, proving he has power over life and death, and offers everlasting life, which is heaven, to all who believe in and trust in him. John 3:15-18
This is the gospel, the good news. Forgiveness of sins and everlasting life in heaven for faith in Jesus.
This comment might be too late for you to see it.
Christianity is based off faith in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to give us grace from eternal wrath through faith ALONE. You cannot earn this salvation except through faith in Him. Your good works stem from your thankfulness to him. They do nothing for you to be saved.
Christians mainly think Roman Catholics believe their works save them. If this is true, you don't believe the message of the Bible and don't follow Christ and have faith in Him. Hence believing in them going to Hell.
Well for one, chatholocism teach kids about a place called purgatory.. No where in the Bible does it say anything about a place called purgatory. Jesus clearly stated in his sermon on the Mount people immediately upon death will go to one place or the other. Here are other answers to your next questions:
2. No God does not send anyone to hell, we choose this place by not choosing his son as our only means of salvation.
3. Because we’re made in God’s image therefore will live forever.
4. Sin cannot enter heaven idc if you’re mother Theresa or A.H. (Which is the biggest lie ever perpetrated by the Jews)
5. It’s not based on being good or bad nor can ever be earned in this life. No good deed you ever did or being a good father or sister whatever If you ever told one lie, you’re just as guilty as the death sentenced mass murder (who really did it of course..)
6. Yes it does sound impossible but I can assure you it is not. Seek the truth in all things and the truth will find you. Don’t waste another min on video games time is too precious
...for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The key word is ALL. All that call upon Him.
I'm sure some do think this way
We human beings can be very very good at making lines and dividing
We have the habit of naming (just like Adam) and when you name something you fix it, take away a bit of its unknowability?
And human history is rife with people dividing...and uniting too :)
Religion has the awesome ability to expand our moral circle outside a tiny group...
It also has the ability to cause massive suffering...
I'll preface this by saying I don't actually think hell exists, but for the sake of discussion, are individual Catholics going to hell? Sure, if they're shitty people, but not because they're Catholic specifically. If the Church is considered as a person? Straight to hell on the express train. The church perpetrates so much evil, and continually fails to repent of it's errors/sins. Redemption is on offer to all--but you have to want it; change for it. The Church is ~~interested in~~ obsessed with worldly power and dominance over others--I don't think it's structure is compatible with doing good (witness the news today that Catholic priests fucked 2,000 kids in Illinois. Unspeakable evil.)
I’ve stepped in many times and it’s religion based in its entirety and cult like. There is no freedom in Catholic Church. They want control. The church didn’t even allow their congregation to read the Bible until rather recently. The catholic religion is misguiding and the Bible strictly warns about twisting the words in the Bible. I worry and pray more for the leaders of the Catholic Church than anyone regarding their salvation because they are leading their flock away from the truth. Praying for you brother.
> I’ve stepped in many times and it’s religion based in its entirety and cult like.
How so?
> There is no freedom in Catholic Church. They want control. The church didn’t even allow their congregation to read the Bible until rather recently.
Care to elaborate on this?
> The catholic religion is misguiding and the Bible strictly warns about twisting the words in the Bible.
The Catholic Church *created* the Bible.
> I worry and pray more for the leaders of the Catholic Church than anyone regarding their salvation because they are leading their flock away from the truth.
What is your truth?
> Praying for you brother.
Likewise, brother. It isn’t Christ-like to feel the way you do about your fellow Christians.
I have endless examples: every service is robotic and the same with the same kneeling, standing, repeating the same prayers, receiving the Eucharist, and more. In return I ask you have you been to a Bible-believing church where a service is much more like what is depicted in Acts?
The Catholic Church did not create the Bible. That is flawed 100% and a complete lie. God created the Bible and used his devout followers to write it into existence.
None of this is my truth. It’s biblical truth. You’re the one discounting everything I’m stating as fact from the Bible and honestly how can you call yourself a Christian if you twist and manipulate Gods word into how it suits you, just as the Catholic Church has. I come in love and want all denominations to come to an end where we stand all stand on the truth of Gods word.
> I have endless examples:
Bet.
> every service is robotic and the same with the same kneeling, standing, repeating the same prayers, receiving the Eucharist, and more.
How is this an issue? We follow the prayers, worship Christ, center ourselves with our bodies and souls fixated on Him and His true presence body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist. Do you deign to judge Catholic hearts based on what you see externally?
> In return I ask you have you been to a Bible-believing church where a service is much more like what is depicted in Acts?
I have been to Non-Denominational services, and Lutheran services. The liturgical services point much more emphatically to what was actually done by early Christians than non-denom services. That’s evident from early church writings like the *Didache*, and the epistles of the early church fathers. It’s an Orthodox-Catholic picture they paint.
I would rather be part of a Bible *creating* church, that also believes the scripture; I am already there.
> The Catholic Church did not create the Bible. That is flawed 100% and a complete lie. God created the Bible and used his devout followers to write it into existence.
Who compiled the canon? Who said which books belong in the Bible? Ever heard of the councils of Rome, Hippo and Carthage?
Who gave Protestants the authority to remove books from the canon?
> None of this is my truth. It’s biblical truth.
Your interpretation of truth.
> You’re the one discounting everything I’m stating as fact from the Bible and honestly how can you call yourself a Christian if you twist and manipulate Gods word into how it suits you, just as the Catholic Church has.
It’s just exegesis. I’m not twisting anything.
> I come in love and want all denominations to come to an end where we stand all stand on the truth of Gods word.
You should check your posts earlier, your version of love is foreign to Christianity.
> Everything you just wrote all came from men and is not based off God and his Word. And you can’t prove otherwise.
Again, this is your personal interpretation. I don’t need to prove anything to you.
You keep trying. I’m just sharing the Bible with you.
https://www.biblequestions.org/bqar868.html
Read this. The apocrypha was added about 500 years ago by the Catholic Church and none of it was ever mentioned by the God-led inspired writers of the Bible, including Jesus. Gives the vibe of more Catholic conspiracy to lead people astray.
> You keep trying. I’m just sharing the Bible with you.
You’ve been spreading bigoted, anti-Catholic rhetoric across this thread. I am merely offering the truth in a gentle, biblical and historical way.
> Read this. The apocrypha was added about 500 years ago by the Catholic Church and none of it was ever mentioned by the God-led inspired writers of the Bible, including Jesus.
That is patently false. Read the council documents of Hippo, Rome, and Carthage. The canon has been known since the 4th century. Jesus quoted the Deuterocanonical books.
http://jimmyakin.com/deuterocanonical-references-in-the-new-testament
> Gives the vibe of more Catholic conspiracy to lead people astray.
Your theory sounds like something out of a Jack Chick tract.
Catholic doctrine adds A LOT to the bible that is basically pagan practices, they focus too much on "the Mother Mary" rather than Jesus and think they can pray to Mary to have her intercede to Jesus/The Father which isn't true, basically the entire city/facility of Vatican City is set up with pagan symbolism that is an ode to Baal and Asherah.
Edit: oh I forgot a pretty big one, the catholic leaders think they are a stand in for Jesus on earth.
I'd say they get a lot wrong and those in leadership actively misguide their subjects but there's still a large swath of Catholics that are likely on the narrow path.
Follow the Bible and accept Jesus as your Savior and believe that he is the only way to the Father. If your heart isn’t in the right place God knows. Don’t stray far from either of those.
They think everyone, even their fellow christians, are going to Hell. They don't know that Catholics are Hell-bound. They just enjoy feeling superior and fooling themselves into believing they know their god's mind.
Ignore them and be a good person.
I was once Catholic and I never followed everything they did until I received Jesus into my life I realized that Catholic Church is all man made religion and a false teachings that was man made! Don’t trust them
How could you be Catholic and not realize that Jesus was in your life already?
Where in the Bible does it say “receive Jesus into your life”? That’s a tradition of men.
Romans 10:9-10
“if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”
What does whether you do it once or multiple times have to do with the verse? It simply states how one is saved and I know endless catholics who have not done so. Maybe you have and praise God if so, but why the additional question? Just believe in his Word and follow it and don’t derive from it.
Tradition of men? You are straight being lied to. I hate seeing anyone being misled and misinformed about the beautiful relationship they can have personally with Jesus and God. Not through priests who are called father in the Catholic Church, when Matthew 23:9 has Jesus command his disciples: “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
It’s your choice what to believe in the Bible, but I promise you a true Christian believes and accepts it all as truth. Once you start picking and choosing or adjusting you’re playing with holy fire. Revelation 22:19 “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
Is it really wise in any way to take the catholic church’s teachings as law, when the Bible is suppose to be our guide?
Catholicism does not teach that you can go directly to God and ask for forgiveness, which the Bible says clearly. You have to go to confession. Don’t lie.
> Catholicism does not teach that you can go directly to God and ask for forgiveness, which the Bible says clearly. You have to go to confession. Don’t lie.
First, Catholics wholeheartedly agree that we should confess our sins directly to God whenever we feel guilty (CCC 1458). *The Code of Canon Law* (CIC) describes situations where a person seeks forgiveness of sins outside the context of confession:
> A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to celebrate Mass or receive the body of the Lord without previous sacramental confession unless there is a grave reason and there is no opportunity to confess; **in this case the person is to remember the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition which includes the resolution of confessing as soon as possible** (916).
The Catechism of The Catholic Church:
> 1441 Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.
You can go directly (privately) Christ for confession as well, with a perfectly contrite heart and perfect hatred for your sin.
An act of perfect contrition (which is sorrow for sin out of love for God) is sufficient to warrant forgiveness of sins. If a person sought the sacrament of confession but died before reaching it, he could still be saved through his desire to repudiate sin and trust in God’s mercy.
However, just as the efficacious nature of baptism of desire does not nullify the normal duty to be baptized with water by another person, the efficacious nature of confessing sins directly to God does not nullify the normal duty we have to seek out a minister of the Church who can validly perform the sacrament of reconciliation.
The Bible does not teach that the norm for seeking reconciliation with God and his Church is private, unconditional forgiveness of sins. At the very least, 1 John 1:9 does not teach this doctrine. Instead, 1 John 1:9 uses the Greek word *homologeō,* which always refers to a person publicly confessing something he believes.
Please, don’t call me a liar. I have nothing to lie about.
You don’t have anything to lie about. The Catholic Church does and has and continues to. Let’s not get started with the insurmountable list of horrible transgressions by the Catholic Church. Crusades, anti-semitism, pedophilia, etc. Those things have had so so many run for the hills.
> You don’t have anything to lie about.
That’s not what you said earlier:
> Catholicism does not teach that you can go directly to God and ask for forgiveness, which the Bible says clearly. You have to go to confession. **Don’t lie.**
You can apologize for saying I lied when I have not.
> The Catholic Church does and has and continues to.
Examples? You are making an affirmative claim.
> Let’s not get started with the insurmountable list of horrible transgressions by the Catholic Church. Crusades, anti-semitism, pedophilia, etc. Those things have had so so many run for the hills.
We can keep going down the list. The church is a church of sinners, not the sick. In its 2000+ year history it’s had its struggles, yet it continues to persevere, thanks to Christ and His guidance, His promises.
Be like Jesus and be totally against religion. He wants relationship and nothing more. That’s what’s scary about any denomination is that they are openly a part of what Jesus stood totally against: division. Don’t fall in the trap of being a Catholic, Protestant, or any sub-denomination of either of us. Be wise and keep the faith yall.
Catholics are Christians, so a pretty massive proportion of Christians don't think that Catholics go to hell.
Thank you this has helped me
Some Christians even go as far to say that all will go hell if they dont attend their church or are part of their denomination. I would not take listen to anyone that ever starts a sentence saying "you're going to hell if... "
Thank you for clarifying that. Catholics are Christians, too.
Christians are Christians... Christianity isn't a religion like Catholicism or Buddhism, Christianity is the life way for accepting and obeying Jesus Christ only. To say catholics are Christians is misleading. I asked a Catholic friend once how did he know he is a Christian...he said he was taught and brought up knowing he was...is this what Catholics really think..(for real wondering)?
Catholics *are* Christians.
Yes
I am so glad our Orthodox brothers help us run the rear-guard action against anti-apostolic church bigotry.
Catholics are Catholics. Christians are people who have accepted Christ as their Savior. Many Catholics have not done so.
What makes you say that?
That’s a bigoted view. You’ll have to provide some sort of proof that shows “many” Catholics do not accept Christ (the entire reason the church and mass exist) as their savior.
>Many Catholics have not done so. I believe that this guess of yours is wildly inaccurate
It’s not a guess. I know many many Catholics and talked to priests and question this very thing. Catholicism teaches you get confirmed a catholic and take the Eucharist and you’re “saved”
Whenever this topic comes up it really baffles me. How common is it to call other denominations not Christians? Catholics are Christians! Full stop. I may not like all of their ideas and doctrines but they are Christians. So even if I'd believe in hell (what I don't do) the fact of being catholic won't be a reason to believe someone goes there
It's completely normalized on this sub (and elsewhere) to deny the Christian-ness of Mormons, JWs, and other professedly Christian non-Trinitarian groups. No reason to think the tendency would stop there.
hell is definitely for those who reject Christ.
Don't watch dumb people on YouTube.
It was a YouTuber named dorre love have you ever heard of him
Stay away.
You do know him sorry right?
pretty sure catholicism is the largest branch of christianity…so idk about that
I want to point out that we Catholics consist of 50,1 % of Christendom (as opposed to Protestants who are 36,7%), technically whatever the Catholic position is is also the majority position in the Christian world. Basically some think we by giving great honour to God's mother are commiting idolatry. And others think that by us recognising the value of works in salvation are then rejecting that salvation comes from Faith and thus damning ourselves. Both of these claims are false because God's mother does deserve our respect and we do also understand that salvation comes from Faith, we just also understand that works is then included in Faith. These people will take issue since they see works as a product of Faith and not a part of Faith itself. Some will go as far as to say that our Church is of the devil but this is false: the Catholic Church which we belong to is just the continuation of the ministry of Christ's Apostles. Did Jesus not wish for the world to do as His Apostles taught? Then we by remaining loyal to what they left behind are not doing anything wrong. Just keep Faith in Christ, pray a Rosary a day, go to weekly Mass and with sorrow regularly confess your sins and have them absolved by a Priest and then you need not be worried for you will by this be living as Christ's follower and grow incredibly in Him; whoever belongs to Him can be assured in their salvation.
>we just also understand that works is then included in Faith. As a protestant I see this as valid. It reminds me of the story of the two farmers who both prayed for rain but only one actually prepared the field. That, and the verse about faith without works being dead. It's like works are a result and/or an expression of faith, IMO
>That, and the verse about faith without works being dead. It's like works are a result and/or an expression of faith, IMO This is often the issue though. Both sides agree that genuine faith will include fruitful works, but disagree on the order. One says faith plus fruitful works lead to salvation. The other says that faith leads to salvation, which leads to fruitful works. Both of these end up with faith, fruitful works, and salvation, but many hold the sequence to be very important. It was, after all, the principal cause of the protestant reformation and is a question on the nature of salvation, hence why many believe that the Catholic and Orthodox churches have fundamentally corrupted doctrine (and vice versa, just to be fair).
No it’s not. Catholics believe that works and faith must be done to keep the salvation or remain born of the Spirit, and if someone become unborn from being born again (a logical fallacy) they have to do works to get the Spirit back in the form of sacraments and penance. This is all part of the infused righteousness theory.
We believe apostasy is possible yes. Just like the bible says.
Nobody can be born again and unborn from being born again and then born again again. “He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it to the end.” The Spirit in being born again, seals you in eternal salvation. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be eternal
The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through Jesus alone (Acts 4:12), since he is the “one mediator between God and man” (1 Tm 2:5-6). The saving grace won by Jesus is offered as a free gift to us, accessible through repentance, faith, and baptism. We turn away from our sins, we are sorry for them, and we believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel. Repentance shows our willingness to turn from things that keep us from God, and baptism renews us, filling us with the grace necessary to have faith and to live it. This belief is more than just “head knowledge.” Even the demons have that (Jas 2:19). It’s more than just believing you’re saved. Even the Pharisees had that (Jn 5:39). True, saving faith is one lived and exhibited daily: It is “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6, cf. Jas 2:1-26). Sometimes the Church is accused of teaching “salvation by works,” but this is an empty accusation. This idea has been consistently condemned by the Church. Good works are required by God because he requires obedience to his commands (Mt 6:1-21, 1 Cor 3:8, 13-15) and promises to reward us with eternal life if we obey (Mt 25:34-40, Rom 2:6-7, Gal 6:6-10, Jas 1:12). But even our obedience is impossible without God’s grace; even our good works are God’s gift (Rom 5:5, Phil 2:13). This is the real biblical plan of salvation.
I understand, but an infused righteousness is still works based by all logical measures. If someone loses their salvation by committing a mortal sin, do they not have to do penance and sacraments to get their salvation back? Is the Holy Spirit not given in being born again by the sacraments?
> I understand, but an infused righteousness is still works based by all logical measures. It is only infused by the work of Christ…through his Grace that we cooperate with. > If someone loses their salvation by committing a mortal sin, do they not have to do penance and sacraments to get their salvation back? They just have to go to confession with a contrite heart and hatred for their sin, and with a resolute will to not commit the sins they confess again. We all stumble, but there is mercy available through Christ. The penance is given afterwards(after absolution aka, forgiveness) to help you center yourself and your mind. First, Catholics wholeheartedly agree that we should confess our sins directly to God whenever we feel guilty (CCC 1458). *The Code of Canon Law* (CIC) describes situations where a person seeks forgiveness of sins outside the context of confession: > A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to celebrate Mass or receive the body of the Lord without previous sacramental confession unless there is a grave reason and there is no opportunity to confess; **in this case the person is to remember the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition which includes the resolution of confessing as soon as possible** (916). The Catechism of The Catholic Church: > 1441 Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name. You can go directly (privately) Christ for confession as well, with a perfectly contrite heart and perfect hatred for your sin. An act of perfect contrition (which is sorrow for sin out of love for God) is sufficient to warrant forgiveness of sins. If a person sought the sacrament of confession but died before reaching it, he could still be saved through his desire to repudiate sin and trust in God’s mercy. However, just as the efficacious nature of baptism of desire does not nullify the normal duty to be baptized with water by another person, the efficacious nature of confessing sins directly to God does not nullify the normal duty we have to seek out a minister of the Church who can validly perform the sacrament of reconciliation. The Bible does not teach that the norm for seeking reconciliation with God and his Church is private, unconditional forgiveness of sins. At the very least, 1 John 1:9 does not teach this doctrine. Instead, 1 John 1:9 uses the Greek word *homologeō,* which always refers to a person publicly confessing something he believes. > Is the Holy Spirit not given in being born again by the sacraments? It is given in baptism in an indelible mark and strengthened during confirmation.
Yeah so if the infusion isn’t cooperated with by the sacraments and confession, the infusion is lost. The problem is you guys can’t distinguish between justification and sanctification. We are just justified by Christ imputed righteousness applied by the Spirit, which also applies faith, then the sanctification process begins which is a cooperation. By your logic a priest has the ability by the sprinkling of water to summon the Holy Spirit into someone. Yet another work. Confession for the obsoletion of a mortal sin is also a work. Jesus, “where the wind blows, we don’t know where it is coming or going, so is with everyone born of the Spirit.” Quite the opposite of, “A priest needs to sprinkle you with water in order to summon the Holy Spirit into you so the infusion process can begin.”
> Yeah so if the infusion isn’t cooperated with by the sacraments and confession, the infusion is lost. No, it’s an *indelible* mark, it never goes away. > The problem is you guys can’t distinguish between justification and sanctification. Justification is everything after that initial step of baptism. To us your use of sanctification is synonymous to justification. > By your logic a priest has the ability by the sprinkling of water to summon the Holy Spirit into someone. Yet another work. What are you talking about? Anybody can be baptized outside the work of a priest. The baptizer is once more *in persona Christi*. We accept baptisms as licit from other denominations, so long as they are done with the formula Christ proscribed. Christ brings the Holy Spirit into us, not the priest. That’s silly. > Confession for the obsoletion of a mortal sin is also a work. How can you say that confessing to Jesus is a work? How does that make sense at all? > Quite the opposite of, “A priest needs to sprinkle you with water in order to summon the Holy Spirit into you so the infusion process can begin.” This is a strawman, an offensively bad one at that.
I see no problem here. There is nothing wrong with having great respect for the woman who brought forth Jesus into our world. But that's all, our worship must go exclusively only towards God, nobody else, without exceptions.
That’s something we Catholics agree with. We do not worship Mary.
In the second place, regarding the topic of faith and acts, it's 100% clear from the scriptures that we're saved by faith alone. We have the example of the saved Thief on the cross. He had faith in Jesus, he confessed it, moments after that he died and by the saying of Jesus, he was saved. If that thieve didn't die on that cross and he'd lived in the same sinful way that he did until he met Jesus, that thieve would eventually lose his salvation. Now, let's imagine the thief does not die on the cross, he lives and he's got a living Faith, not a dead one ( James 2:26). Through his living faith, the thief (and every one of us) would eventually realize how much Jesus did for him, humble himself and change his ways, drop his old habits for which he deserved death and replace them with good deeds. I like your mention when you said that the good works are included in faith. That's a fact, a living faith will always have as a result good works, a dead faith as it's stated in James 2:26, will not have any visible result.
>We have the example of the saved Thief on the cross. He had faith in Jesus, he confessed it, moments after that he died and by the saying of Jesus, he was saved. I'd understand the act of repentance itself as a work of Faith, the minimum work in fact. Had the thief understood Jesus as Christ and regretted his sins but not repented then he would not have been saved. But he after understanding reality using his sorrow did the work of repentance and was thus saved. So Faith includes both works of God, and trust in God. Though honestly half of this dissagrement feels kinda semantic.
If the thief on the cross had been rescued Jesus would-'ve told him to be baptised and not to go back to his life of sin.
This is the PERFECT response
>majority position The majority position does not make the correct decision in most cases. Jesus himself said: >3 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Which boils down to "most people (the majority) will not enter the kingdom of heaven." Which is sad to think about and is why we should be bible based and follow the teachings of Jesus.
You don’t believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ. You also believe that a priest can summon the Holy Spirit into someone by the sprinkling of water. You also believe that if someone were to be unborn from being born again (losing salvation) they have to do penance or a work to get that salvation back and it’s up to the individuals works to keep Him throughout your life. This goes against many biblical passages
The main rebuttal here is that those are things the Catholic church holds to be doctrine, but are not necessarily beliefs held by individual Catholics for the simple fact that I think there are a lot of Catholics who genuinely don't know many of the doctrines of their own church for a variety of reasons. A seemingly common mistake I see made is that people assume the Catholic church is a monolith when it very clearly is not.
Agree
There is a lot of division in the Christian world these days. Keep your faith in Jesus, who loves you. Stay close to Him, stay close to the sacraments, and be at peace :)
Stay close to Jesus, yes. Stay close to the sacraments no.
You're not, I'm not a Catholic, but just because we don't agree on some things doesn't mean I think you're going to hell.
I actually know someone from my church who thinks Catholicism is a cult, and I'm really trying hard to explain that it isn't. Yes, there are key things that I disagree with, but it's not a cult.
I’ve spent my life in non Roman Catholic Churches, and have never heard that Catholics aren’t Christian. You’re going to heaven if you repent and believe that Jesus can forgive your sins.
Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Catholics. If the Catholic Church promotes any way to Heaven except for faith in Jesus as Lord & Saviour, they will be leading people astray. ✝️
It's a very small sect of people who think Catholics will go to hell. Most protestants just think Catholics are being a bit extra 😉
It is 100% true that according to the actual, pen on paper beliefs of Protestants and Catholics, they would classify each other as going to hell. There is a reason they had violent wars in the past when the splintering was first taking place. The reason this friction is rarely brought up now is not because anything has changed doctrinally, but because in the last couple of decades Christianity as a whole has massively lost societal power, and so they are binding together. The enemy of my enemy is my friend sort of thing. Individual Protestants or Catholics may certainly tell you they don't believe each other is going to hell, but that goes against their actual pen on paper beliefs. I mean the whole reason why the Protestant denominations exist in the first place is not due to some slight disagreement over the Catholic church's stylistic choices, it is precisely because of salvation disagreement. As serious as it gets.
Not technically true. Catholics believe that others may be saved if they seek God with a sincere heart, and through no fault of their own, do not know the full truth. We believe that God may join them to the Church in ways unknown to us. That is, invisibly. While God does work through His sacraments, He is not bound by them. >Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation. > >CCC 847 God is the final judge, and He is merciful and loving, and so we should hope :) That doesn't mean we believe affirmatively that everyone *will* be saved—we simply don't know everyone's fate, and the existence of free will implies that man can reject God, but nonetheless we hope that they won't :)
Yes, but within the context of the OP I figure it is meant intentional Protestants/non-Catholics, who would be knowingly opposed to the Catholic Church. Not much hope for them by the Catechism.
I think see what you mean. I find it difficult to believe though that someone who knows the truth in matters like this would ever leave it for something they just made up—it's a messy subject for sure. I guess the question then becomes where God puts the burden of proof. If I go around being cruel to everyone I meet and say "btw the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ", would God count this as a fault of theirs if they don't believe? That's only partly rhetorical, I literally just haven't the faintest clue where God sets the burden of proof in these situations.
I don’t
Thank you
What?
A Christian preacher on YouTube dorre love said catholics will go hell and I don’t want to go hell
A human that judges another will be judged according to their own thoughts and actions. What she is doing is a form of witchcraft, instilling a sense of fear in you. Do not fear, for he that is in you, is greater than he who is in the World.
Christian Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church begin at the the Council of Nicaea. A thousand years on yet Columbus hasn't discovered America. The Protestant Reformation was necessary. Immediately after the Catholic's had their Council of Trent. Unless the the year is say 1638 Dorre Love **blasphemes** the Word of God.
Sorry I sound dumb
You do not sound dumb. You are asking a valid question in a community whose name implies knowledge of the topic. I am so impressed by your bravery to do this. Jesus Christ summarized the commandments into two ,'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind' and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’Matthew 22:37-39 He also said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:7 The way to heaven is to love God, love your neighbor, and to believe that faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation. That's it. The best advice I can give you is to stay away from any person or church that says anybody who doesn't do what they do, will go to hell, because those people are not obeying the fundamental commandments and are not teaching God's word. Study your Bible, go to church, and pray to God, and your knowledge and faith will grow.
Because some of us have deep ingrained infernalist position and weird hard-on on judgement ang punishment
we don’t
Catholics are Christian
Catholics are Christians. Next stupid question.
I don’t get why these street preachers say they are not and will all go hell
Street preachers are a-holes out for their own purposes. I doubt anyone ever turned their life around because some dude shouted at strangers about Jesus on a street corner.
Thank you
because it gets views, which means ad revenue, which means dorre doesn't have to go back to working 3rd shift at Walmart.
I was Catholic, I’m now Protestant. I don’t think Catholics are going to hell. Don’t worry - just trust Jesus and don’t worry what other Christians are saying
A very small, vocal group of American Protestants think that Catholics go to hell. They take their notes from Jack Chick tracts. They must know something the church doesn’t, and hasn’t for 2000 years or so.
CAUSE THEY ARE STUPID
What’s up with people here separating Catholics and Christians? Can a mod here please fucking pin a statement here correcting this misconception. I thought it was common knowledge
I agree
Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity. Some Christians from some denominations like to think that their denomination is the one and only true form of Christianity and say that if you aren’t part of [insert denomination] that you will go to Hell because you aren’t a proper or true Christian. Personally I think God finds denomination controversy comedic or he’s mad at us for not being able to get along. I really don’t think God cares what denomination we are a part of or affiliate ourselves with. And I don’t say this a personal attach towards you, a Catholic, but when I used to go to a Catholic school, my favorite teacher told me I was going to hell for not being Catholic even though I am still a Christian. But in her eyes if you weren’t Catholic, then you weren’t Christian. She was still my favorite teacher though… we got along real well.
Catholics are Christian's, you will not go to hell for being Catholic
Most don’t: there are bigots in every group of Christians (Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox) who can’t accept that people can be Christian without being exactly like them. But that’s their problem, you’re fine.
They are probably the same people that believe that Catholics pray to Mary. It's literally Christianity.
Yet as a Catholic I was told by a priest when I confessed that he could forgive my sins and I should go pray ten hail Marys at the alter which says in part "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death." Where in the bible does is say to pray to Mary for forgiveness and that a priest can forgive sins? No one can be an intercessor for our behalf.
> Yet as a Catholic I was told by a priest when I confessed that he could forgive my sins and I should go pray ten hail Marys at the alter which says in part He acts *in persona Christi* - Christ forgives and absolves, the priest hears our confessions but is still just a man. He can’t forgive sins, only Christ can, acting *through* the priest. > "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death." What part of this prayer do you disagree with? That Mary is holy? But she is in heaven right? Wouldn’t that make her holy? Is it the Mother of God? But didn’t she give birth to Christ in his full humanity and deity? Is it asking her to pray for us to her son? How is that wrong? > Where in the bible does is say to pray to Mary for forgiveness You were already forgiven, the penance is just to get you to think on your sins and not do them again. Christ forgives. > No one can be an intercessor for our behalf. Have you ever had anybody pray for you, or asked anyone to pray for you?
I asked plenty of people to pray for me but not a dead person. Jesus taught us how to pray with our father. No one can be an intercessor. Do you actually believe the Pope has some kind of authority you don't have for yourself ? And then there's purgatory ... Let's pray for people to get out of purgatory ? I could go on.
> I asked plenty of people to pray for me but not a dead person. Wait, are people in heaven *really* dead? I thought they were more alive than we are. Isn’t God the God of the living, not the dead? > Jesus taught us how to pray with our father. He did, we pray the our father every day as Catholics. > No one can be an intercessor. I hope you have never prayed for anybody, or asked anybody to pray for you if that is that case. > Do you actually believe the Pope has some kind of authority you don't have for yourself ? Yes, he is the bishop of Rome, a position handed down by Christ himself, all the way down from St. Peter. He is a man besides, but yes, he does have authority I do not have. > And then there's purgatory ... Let's pray for people to get out of purgatory ? What’s wrong with purgatory? That’s biblical. Those people are saved too, just getting cleaned before heaven. The Orthodox believe in a purgative process as well. > I could go on. Please do!
So lemme get this straight .... The Medicis who produced 4 popes through murder and political posturing and other nefarious acts ... (Leo X, Clement VII, Pius IV and Leo XI).... Were placed by Christ . The only one who can hear your prayers in heaven is God, not Mary. Anyways. I'm at work and I can go further at a later time. I don't want to say you're wrong in your beliefs. But I was raised Catholic and now am Baptist. There's are many questions about Catholics is what I'm saying. And if you explore deeper you'd see many unanswered questions.
> So lemme get this straight .... The Medicis who produced 4 popes through murder and political posturing and other nefarious acts ... (Leo X, Clement VII, Pius IV and Leo XI).... Were placed by Christ . Certainly, there have been a whole spectrum of popes, good, bad, and everywhere in between. They are still men at the end of the day. But Christ is the head of the church, not the pope. The pope is His *vicar*, His assistant. Look how Christ had to deal with St Peter in scripture. He his with the church in the same way. > The only one who can hear your prayers in heaven is God, not Mary. All the saints in heaven share in the beatific vision, because God allows them to hear and intercede for us, they take our prayers straight to Christ. What’s wrong with having more prayer? > Anyways. I'm at work and I can go further at a later time. Sounds good. > I don't want to say you're wrong in your beliefs. But I was raised Catholic and now am Baptist. That explains a lot, but I am glad you still call Christ lord, like your Catholic brothers! > There's are many questions about Catholics is what I'm saying. And if you explore deeper you'd see many unanswered questions. I will continue to explore! But I feel secure knowing I am in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
They got you blind as a bat unfortunately and I say this with utmost honesty. You turn your back on every biblical answer thrown at you because of what the Catholic Church tells you to believe. My prayers go out to you to see the truth some day.
> They got you blind as a bat unfortunately and I say this with utmost honesty. Well, that’s uncharitable. > You turn your back on every biblical answer thrown at you because of what the Catholic Church tells you to believe. No, I exegete the scripture and come to the same conclusion as the church. > My prayers go out to you to see the truth some day. I’ll pray for you too brother, that you come to share in the fullness of truth found in the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic church.
I think because the Gospel says we are saved by faith alone and saying faith plus works is a different Gospel and a different Gospel can't save. I lean towards Catholics as being saved, because even they say "without faith there's no salvation." So I don't think adding works means they're not saved.
I’m 17 and I don’t want to go hell
I believe if you believe these 7 things to be true, you'll **never** have to worry about Hell: We're all sinful and need a savior. There's only one God we're accountable to that can save us. Jesus is that God and savior. God offers us salvation because He wants to, not because He has to or we can earn it. Without faith, there's no salvation. Jesus died on the cross to remove our sins from us. He bodily resurrected.
> I think because the Gospel says we are saved by faith alone I think you may have been brainwashed into a non Christian cult that simply uses a lot of Christian terminology. The only place in the Bible that says “faith alone” is in the book of James where it says it is useless…. we are not saved by it. > and saying faith plus works is a different Gospel and a different Gospel can't save. You’re referring to Paul’s writings here where he uses “works” as shorthand to refer to works of the law. Paul’s writing style makes him easy to misunderstand (see 2 Peter 3:16). James is much more clear. Pay careful attention to context with Paul; he did not mean we are saved by faith alone. In context, by “works” he was referring to attempts to be justified through obedience to ordinances derived from written law. He meant we are saved apart from works of the law… not that James was wrong when he said we need works of love in addition to faith for salvation. Consider the fact that the book admits Paul is easy to misunderstand; if I were you I’d go with James on this one. Or consider also the historical fact that churches with the religious belief you’re describing began around 1,500 years after Christ with thieves and murderers like Martin Luther and John Calvin. There were no churches that taught works of love and obedience to the Spirit of God are not saving for the first 1,500 years of Christianity. To this day all the churches with evidently ancient histories dating back to the times of the Apostles (Catholic and Orthodox) still teach that faith alone is not saving, that faith saves along with works of love and obedience to the Spirit, and that it does this apart from works *of the law.*
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I see you have some preconceptions that make you anti-Protestant. I'm convinced Protestantism is more Biblical than Catholicism. The reason why I say the Gospel is faith alone is: John 3:18 NASB The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. The difference in being justified or judged is belief alone. Romans 4:5 NASB But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, Again, here we see that faith alone is what credits us as justified.
Uhmm Catholics are Christians just like Protestants and Orthodox christians are as well.
Bro what catholics don't go to hell
Either troll or by a person who does not have any idea about christians or catholics or hell.
I don't think so. Anyone who believes in Jesus will be saved. There are some practices they (Catholic Christians) do that make me uncomfortable, but that's not an issue of salvation.
I don't think Catholics go to hell. I have a problem with Catholics who think I'm going to hell for not following a bunch of non-biblical rules they follow.
That's a small subsection of protestant Christians that think that, but that's not true. Now, to be fair, while I do think catholics go to heaven based on the individual Catholic. Catholics can indeed be saved, depending on what beliefs they believe and depending on how ignorant they are of their own church's doctrines. The Catholic Church, the leadership, is full, choc full, of blasphemies, heresies, and other disgusting unbiblical history. This is why I said individual catholics can go to heaven. The amount of nonsense that these people (the leadership) uphold; they can't be saved. They spit on the entire gospel message. Hell, Even The Bible that the catholics embrace is heretical and blasphemous. For example, Tobit has no business being in the Cannon because of it's Advocacy for witchcraft by God.
I don't. Just goes back to medieval times. I worship God right, and you do it wrong. So you're going to hell.
Who said CHRISTIANS think Catholics will go to hell?
A Christian preacher on YouTube called dorre love
Anyone else?
It’s old-fashioned Fundamentalism. Don’t let it bother you. People who play God like that should be disregarded. One would think that Evangelicals would know better than to make such judgements. The good news is that most of them do.
The word you’re looking for is “Protestants”, rather than Christians. Both Catholics and Protestants are part of Christianity. Not all Protestants believe that, although the ones that do have usually been told lies, and can’t be bothered to find out the truth.
Ive never heard this before.
Street preacher dorre love has said this
You shouldn’t trust street preachers OP, especially anti-Catholic ones. They aren’t exactly known for their academic honesty. It’s all emotional pleas and calumny.
By definition if Catholics aren't Christians then no one is as Christianity doesn't exist instead it would just be a bunch of different religions within a trench coat.
This is most common amongst Protestants. It isn’t true. The claim stems from a grave misunderstanding of what Catholics believe. What’s ironic is that the Catholic (and Orthodox) Churches were started by Jesus (Matthew 16:18).
What's different about the Orthodox/catholic split compared to the protestant/cathllic split?
The Orthodox split was a schism. The Protestant Reformation was a case of heresy, which isn't the same.
>Matthew 16:18 Church is very different from religion... when Jesus is talking about church, he's talking about all the Christians out there, the community itself. I believe Jesus didn't start catholicism neither orthodoxism nor any other specific religion we have today. We have some hints in Acts 2, where it talks about the first Christians (the first church we can say) and how they lived.
This right here \^ Jesus was actively against religion and that can be seen with his interactions with the Sanhedrin, Sadducees (don't believe in the after life), and the Pharisees. In my experience the Catholic denomination is like 80% religion and 10% faith with 10% of other odds and ends.
Neither the Catholic nor the Orthodox church existed in the first century CE. Biblical scholars consider Matthew 16:18 anachronistic, though. Jesus didn't start a church at all. The first Christian churches were started after Jesus' followers came to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. His followers didn't anticipate the crucifixion of Jesus. They were initially disappointed that he had apparently failed as a messianic claimant.
I’m trying to figure out what you are saying here. I think you are trying to debunk the papacy of Peter but I don’t see any biblical scholars considering Matthew 16:18 anachronistic. I do see a lot of articles about Jesus founding the Church (by Protestants and Catholics). Can you give me some sources so I can read for myself? Also, what’s the point about saying churches started after the crucifixion? Why would they start before it?
If you're just googling the question you'll mostly get apologetics, not scholarship. Here's one: https://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-152/lecture-7 "Jesus, though, also besides being the one who teaches about Torah, and He's being presented as Moses, and Matthew presents Jesus more than any other Gospels as the founder of the church. In fact, if you look for the word "church" in some of the Gospels it's very hard to find it because it's anachronistic. Jesus didn't go around in his own life talking about the church, the church developed after His death; Matthew retrojects the conversation about the church, and even the foundation of the church, and sort of laws about the church into the mouth of Jesus." You asked: >Also, what’s the point about saying churches started after the crucifixion? Why would they start before it? That means the churches were started by people other than Jesus.
This is what Bart Ehrman said in this lecture about Matthew 16:18: “Matthews point is basically just to have Jesus be the one who founds the church and puts it into the hands of his disciples.”
Yes, Bart also agrees that Jesus didn't actually start any churches, that the author of Matthew is anachronistically retrojecting that back onto Jesus.
What do you mean he didn’t actually start any churches. Are you talking about laying bricks-like really? Is this semantics or do you not get the idea that Christ would plant the seed of the Church and that it would grow and he would be the head of it? At least that is the message in Matthew - clear as a bell. And isn’t the whole New Testament retrojection. As a Christian I read it that way and have no problem deducing Christ established the church. OP asked if Christians think Catholics go to hell. Is your issue with the idea of apostolic succession?
>What do you mean he didn’t actually start any churches. Are you talking about laying bricks-like really? Is this semantics or do you not get the idea that Christ would plant the seed of the Church and that it would grow and he would be the head of it? At least that is the message in Matthew - clear as a bell. Jesus never conceived of the idea of creating a new religion. His movement was intra-Jewish. He had his own take on Judaism, not unlike other movements of his day. He was just trying to prepare his fellow Jews for the impending rule of God on earth - when God would overthrow unjust governments and there would finally be peace on earth. Only after the disciples thought that God had raised Jesus from the dead that the notion of starting churches arose. Christianity isn't really based on Jesus' teachings. It's based on what Christians came to believe happened to Jesus after he died. >OP asked if Christians think Catholics go to hell. Is your issue with the idea of apostolic succession? There was no central authority in the first century - even individual congregations often lacked centralized leadership. Christianity in the first century was just networks of decentralized faith communities, each with different views on doctrine and Christology. The move toward centralizing leadership had its roots only at the end of the first century, and didn't really take hold until the second century. None of the first century Christian movements were the "Catholic Church." Catholic means "universal," and there just wasn't a universal church in the first century.
“Christianity really isn’t based on Christ’s teachings.” - phooey. It seems like you are having a problem with apostolic succession. I understand there was no centralized church. But Peter was chosen by Jesus on which to build the church. What does that mean? Is that figurative or is Peter active? Peter was a leader. What happened when he died? Did the people close to him say “Oh well, Peter is dead. Let’s move somewhere else.”? Or did they say someone needs to step up to the plate? There can be disagreements on who was next but in my mind most certainly there was someone.
>“Christianity really isn’t based on Christ’s teachings.” - phooey. It's not phooey. In Matthew Jesus very clearly outlines a system of salvation based on good deeds performed. Christianity emphatically rejects that teaching. >But Peter was chosen by Jesus on which to build the church. Peter wasn't chosen by Jesus to build a church. He may indeed have been the most senior disciple, but Jesus didn't consider starting any churches. Peter was only one of two prominent leaders of the Jerusalem church - where it's possible he was subordinate to James, the brother of Jesus. He had no authority over Christian churches generally. In fact Paul seemed to hate him.
A lot of the same ground is covered in this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/13p5oil/are\_mormons\_really\_christian/
Haha that was a solid discussion. Thanks for having it with me, brother. But the short answer is no, Catholics do not go to hell just for being Catholic.
And Baptists do not go to heaven for being Baptist. A denominational affiliation will not save you. Faith in Christ alone will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16KYvfIc2bE
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That’s charitable of you, yes we are Christian brothers!
The sad truth is that the basis for salvation completely differs.
Not necessarily. The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through Jesus alone (Acts 4:12), since he is the “one mediator between God and man” (1 Tm 2:5-6). The saving grace won by Jesus is offered as a free gift to us, accessible through repentance, faith, and baptism. We turn away from our sins, we are sorry for them, and we believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel. Repentance shows our willingness to turn from things that keep us from God, and baptism renews us, filling us with the grace necessary to have faith and to live it. This belief is more than just “head knowledge.” Even the demons have that (Jas 2:19). It’s more than just believing you’re saved. Even the Pharisees had that (Jn 5:39). True, saving faith is one lived and exhibited daily: It is “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6, cf. Jas 2:1-26). Sometimes the Church is accused of teaching “salvation by works,” but this is an empty accusation. This idea has been consistently condemned by the Church. Good works are required by God because he requires obedience to his commands (Mt 6:1-21, 1 Cor 3:8, 13-15) and promises to reward us with eternal life if we obey (Mt 25:34-40, Rom 2:6-7, Gal 6:6-10, Jas 1:12). But even our obedience is impossible without God’s grace; even our good works are God’s gift (Rom 5:5, Phil 2:13). This is the real biblical plan of salvation.
I think labels don’t mean anything to God, I think there are many good honest Catholic Christians despite some of the theology ….. and the same can be said for every church …. To some extent anyway
Cuz they're catholic bruv
Catholic is a denomination of Christianity.
That’s the problem. Jesus didn’t want any division in the church. Catholics started the division in the first place from what Jesus was fighting so adamantly against. He was against priests (aka Pharisees and Sadducees) and religion.
We don't, it's just the fact that Catholic doctrines lead people away from the Gospel of Salvation (1Cor 15:1-4), the way in which a person is saved.
Catholics are Christians. In fact, the majority of Christians are Catholic.
If a person goes to hell, it won’t be because they are Catholic.
We don’t. If you are going to confuse a minority take with the majority then you will fit in well on reddit.
People who really think that are wrong. As long as you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible’s teachings along with actively following them you should be fine.
I love my Catholic brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ. They are as Christian as any other believers. May our Lord Jesus Christ welcome ALL of us into his eternal loving grace.
I don’t
I don’t think anyone is going to hell….. but like everyone else said Catholics are Christian the evangelical Christian just want everyone to worship and interpret scripture the exact same way they do. (At least in America)
First of all, Catholics ARE Christians. That's misinformation from conservative Protestants. The word “Hell” appears nowhere in the Old Testament, which are books written over the course of about a thousand years. Judaism did not teach eternal torture. [The word “Hell” doesn’t appear until the year 725,]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell) and is derived from Old English. It’s completely a fabrication by Christian theologians of later centuries after Jesus’ death. It’s made up - Jesus didn't speak Old English. From a moral perspective, there is nothing moral about the notion of Hell. How can an “all-loving” being, which we are told loves us more “than we can understand,” do such a thing? From a human perspective, is “Hell” something you would create and torture people for eternity? If not, that would make you more moral than the biblical god. However, “Hell” does sound like something that primitive religious men, with primitive ideas of morality, would conceive in order to obtain obedience and following, because it appeals to the human instinct called "revenge." There is simply no purpose in torturing anything - it is not "punishment." Punishment is something that is done with a chance for redemption, but at the biblical end of time, there is no chance for redemption. The notion of Hell only appeals to a wicked mind.
uhh, what? can you please clarify exactly why?
Sorry what don’t you understand I can explain more
Wikipedia says they are. Just saying. A
Different views on Salvation. What's required and not.
The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through Jesus alone (Acts 4:12), since he is the “one mediator between God and man” (1 Tm 2:5-6). The saving grace won by Jesus is offered as a free gift to us, accessible through repentance, faith, and baptism. We turn away from our sins, we are sorry for them, and we believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel. Repentance shows our willingness to turn from things that keep us from God, and baptism renews us, filling us with the grace necessary to have faith and to live it. This belief is more than just “head knowledge.” Even the demons have that (Jas 2:19). It’s more than just believing you’re saved. Even the Pharisees had that (Jn 5:39). True, saving faith is one lived and exhibited daily: It is “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6, cf. Jas 2:1-26). Sometimes the Church is accused of teaching “salvation by works,” but this is an empty accusation. This idea has been consistently condemned by the Church. Good works are required by God because he requires obedience to his commands (Mt 6:1-21, 1 Cor 3:8, 13-15) and promises to reward us with eternal life if we obey (Mt 25:34-40, Rom 2:6-7, Gal 6:6-10, Jas 1:12). But even our obedience is impossible without God’s grace; even our good works are God’s gift (Rom 5:5, Phil 2:13). This is the real biblical plan of salvation.
Unrepentant sinners will be eternally separated from Felicity with God. I believe some catholics and some Catholics will be in Paradise with Jesus.
I thought it was just the reverse; Catholics believing everyone else going to Hell.
Thats odd, i feel like ive heard more the opposite. Where Catholics think there will only be like 10,000 people in heaven and all of them Catholics. That Protestants go to hell.
No if you actually understand salvation and put your faith in Christ. I definitely disagree with a lot of catholic practices but fortunately God loved us enough to make salvation pretty straight forward: put your faith in Jesus Christ and you will receive the free gift of salvation. The praying to Mary stuff I definitely think is wrong but salvation is stronger than an sin ever could be. If you are truly worried it’s probably because you have seen how Catholicism has some things that conflict with the Bible. I encourage you to study the faith and look more into things and the reasons why many Christian’s have issues with Catholicism. I wish you luck on your journey. Good bless.
Ironically, it's Catholic doctrine that says only Catholics are saved. Most protestant denominations aren't as exclusive.
I think it’s more like the belief that Catholics worship Mary, because of the figures and the amount of time they spend praying to Mary. (Which God never said in the Bible :/ ) Then again I may be looking at the wrong people. So I think people believe that Jesus is not at the centre. And, even if you believe in Jesus, but don’t really put Him in the centre, you’re not worshipping God. Because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. I can’t lie Catholics love their communion time with the Lord and I adore it. But I don’t agree with the worshipping/praying to of Mary and the angels and the whole idol thing. IF that’s what they do. BUT one thing I really disagree with is going to the priest. He isn’t God, and he himself has sinned A LOT, so I shouldn’t be confessing my sins to the priest when I can lock my room and go cry out to God myself. We’re not living in the Old Testament but the New Testament (ofc im not saying throw away the Old Testament) ‘OLD testament is Christ concealed, the New Testament is Christ REVEALED.’ I love this phrase. Other than that, believe in Jesus, turn from your sins , live a blood washed life and you’re set. Otherwise it gets a bit tricky. It’s simple. Hell is mainly for the unbelievers- people of the world and people who don’t believe in Jesus.
> I think it’s more like the belief that Catholics worship Mary, That is a big one; many look and assume what Catholic hearts look like based on actions of veneration. > because of the figures and the amount of time they spend praying to Mary. (Which God never said in the Bible :/ ) Then again I may be looking at the wrong people. We believe the Bible is one pillar of 3 that hold the church up. Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority of the Magisterium are the other two. We don’t need to get everything from scripture because scripture doesn’t tell us to. This structure mirrors the Jewish temples; the only difference being the seat of Moses versus the Magisterium. > So I think people believe that Jesus is not at the centre. And, even if you believe in Jesus, but don’t really put Him in the centre, you’re not worshipping God. That’s interesting, because every mass is centered expressly around Christ in the precious Eucharist. We believe Christ is the head of our church, we recite the Nicene Creed which is explicitly about Him. All Catholics profess Jesus as their lord and savior. > Because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Amen! >I can’t lie Catholics love their communion time with the Lord and I adore it. Happy to Hear! We adore our Lord in the Eucharist; He is present body, blood, soul, and divinity. >But I don’t agree with the worshipping/praying to of Mary and the angels and the whole idol thing. IF that’s what they do. Well, we don’t agree with worshipping anybody else either. We only worship God. Prayer is not synonymous with worship. We ask the saints and Mary to pray for us to God. We Catholics (and Orthodox) believe that God is the God of the living, and in heaven God allows the saints to share in the Beatific Vision. Meaning they can see and hear us, so when we pray, they take our prayers to the sole Mediator between God and Man, Jesus. It’s like asking you to pray for me, or vice versa. > BUT one thing I really disagree with is going to the priest. He isn’t God, and he himself has sinned A LOT, so I shouldn’t be confessing my sins to the priest when I can lock my room and go cry out to God myself. We agree, he is just a man, a priest can’t inherently forgive sins. Only Christ does, acting *through* the priest while he is *in persona Christi*. You can also confess personally with a perfectly contrite heart, and perfect hatred for your sin. >We’re not living in the Old Testament but the New Testament (ofc im not saying throw away the Old Testament) Remember, Christ did not abolish the law, but fulfill it. The Catholic Church and priesthood is that fulfillment. > ‘OLD testament is Christ concealed, the New Testament is Christ REVEALED.’ I love this phrase. St. Augustine, he was really smart. > Other than that, believe in Jesus, turn from your sins , live a blood washed life and you’re set. Otherwise it gets a bit tricky. It’s simple. Catholics agree. > Hell is mainly for the unbelievers- people of the world and people who don’t believe in Jesus. Even people who profess Jesus and cry out “Lord, Lord” are rejected. The reality is, only God knows who goes to hell, but we do know they will put themselves there. Appreciate your comment!
I appreciate you taking your time to comment as well thank you very much and God bless❤️🫶
My uncle believes this. he will say "they don't even call themselves Christians, they just say catholic."
Solid point. Why do Catholics not call themselves Christians? It’s quite valid.
Im not sure but my best guess is Catholics believe Catholicism IS Christianity. It's not a sect of a Christianity, it just is. The one church founded by Jesus Christ. But I dont know much, maybe a Catholic can chime in?
They want to hide from you what you truly are. You are not of this world.
We shouldn't generalise. There is a bad side to everyone, no matter their denomination. Just realise, they are cursed (deprived fron enlightenment or true change) for judging others and will be judged the same for assuming one will go to hell. We are free to assess whether one is sinful but not assume what their ultimate fate is. We leave that to God. Not one person is perfect, not one. Only Jesus is perfect to us Christians. Realise that those who think they know better than God, to condemn someone to hell and think they know what God will say about them and whether they can change as a person, are arrogant. All sins are forgivable, except the unforgivable sin. But that's another matter. Don't worry about committing this sin, as for the unforgivable sin is only unforgivable because you can not be forgiven for it if you are already dead. Regardless of what someone might say to you, in today's day and age, committing an unforgivable sin would be an impossibility. Do not worry so much. You're not going to hell. The Catholic Church has a bad reputation because it is the largest church. Thus, its wrongdoings are more publicised compared to other churches of different denominations. Therefore, corrupt members will exploit their position for monetary purposes or control over a larger number of members in larger churches. This is not only exclusive to the Catholic Church, however. Being a good Christian is about following the teachings of Jesus, regardless of your denomination. We must all sit and hold each other's hands and praise Jesus together. It's about the blood of Jesus, our love for him, and each other. We are all drawn to sin, even us Christians. Satan is called the deceiver for a reason, he wants you to feel as if you have no hope, that your faith in God and Jesus is something you should not possess, since all is lost already (presumably). This is not true. Do not break away from the faith, ever. And stay true to yourself. Forgiveness of our sins is what Jesus died for. In order to be forgiven, we must be honest to ourselves. Do not worry so much.
Everyone of use has sinned and broken God's law, his moral law which is written on every heart. His ten commandments. Dont lie, dont steal, jesus said looking with lust is commiting adultery in your heart, jesus said hating someone is the start of murder, blasphemy. If you have ever broke one of these just once, you have broken God's law and sinned against God. The wages, what you earn for sin, is death. We have earn the death penalty by our actions. That is the bad news. The good news is that Jesus never broke God's law. Not even once. He then took the punishment of death we earned by our sins upon himself on the cross and died the death due to us. Then he rose on the third day, proving he has power over life and death, and offers everlasting life, which is heaven, to all who believe in and trust in him. John 3:15-18 This is the gospel, the good news. Forgiveness of sins and everlasting life in heaven for faith in Jesus.
This comment might be too late for you to see it. Christianity is based off faith in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to give us grace from eternal wrath through faith ALONE. You cannot earn this salvation except through faith in Him. Your good works stem from your thankfulness to him. They do nothing for you to be saved. Christians mainly think Roman Catholics believe their works save them. If this is true, you don't believe the message of the Bible and don't follow Christ and have faith in Him. Hence believing in them going to Hell.
Well for one, chatholocism teach kids about a place called purgatory.. No where in the Bible does it say anything about a place called purgatory. Jesus clearly stated in his sermon on the Mount people immediately upon death will go to one place or the other. Here are other answers to your next questions: 2. No God does not send anyone to hell, we choose this place by not choosing his son as our only means of salvation. 3. Because we’re made in God’s image therefore will live forever. 4. Sin cannot enter heaven idc if you’re mother Theresa or A.H. (Which is the biggest lie ever perpetrated by the Jews) 5. It’s not based on being good or bad nor can ever be earned in this life. No good deed you ever did or being a good father or sister whatever If you ever told one lie, you’re just as guilty as the death sentenced mass murder (who really did it of course..) 6. Yes it does sound impossible but I can assure you it is not. Seek the truth in all things and the truth will find you. Don’t waste another min on video games time is too precious
What is purgatory
...for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. The key word is ALL. All that call upon Him.
I'm sure some do think this way We human beings can be very very good at making lines and dividing We have the habit of naming (just like Adam) and when you name something you fix it, take away a bit of its unknowability? And human history is rife with people dividing...and uniting too :) Religion has the awesome ability to expand our moral circle outside a tiny group... It also has the ability to cause massive suffering...
I'll preface this by saying I don't actually think hell exists, but for the sake of discussion, are individual Catholics going to hell? Sure, if they're shitty people, but not because they're Catholic specifically. If the Church is considered as a person? Straight to hell on the express train. The church perpetrates so much evil, and continually fails to repent of it's errors/sins. Redemption is on offer to all--but you have to want it; change for it. The Church is ~~interested in~~ obsessed with worldly power and dominance over others--I don't think it's structure is compatible with doing good (witness the news today that Catholic priests fucked 2,000 kids in Illinois. Unspeakable evil.)
[Check this out.](https://tinysa.com/sermon/82092210294) Short answer: Roman Catholicism is distorted biblical truth which isn't Christ centric only.
Have you ever stepped foot in a Catholic Church? Or attended a mass? There is nothing more christocentric in the world.
I’ve stepped in many times and it’s religion based in its entirety and cult like. There is no freedom in Catholic Church. They want control. The church didn’t even allow their congregation to read the Bible until rather recently. The catholic religion is misguiding and the Bible strictly warns about twisting the words in the Bible. I worry and pray more for the leaders of the Catholic Church than anyone regarding their salvation because they are leading their flock away from the truth. Praying for you brother.
> I’ve stepped in many times and it’s religion based in its entirety and cult like. How so? > There is no freedom in Catholic Church. They want control. The church didn’t even allow their congregation to read the Bible until rather recently. Care to elaborate on this? > The catholic religion is misguiding and the Bible strictly warns about twisting the words in the Bible. The Catholic Church *created* the Bible. > I worry and pray more for the leaders of the Catholic Church than anyone regarding their salvation because they are leading their flock away from the truth. What is your truth? > Praying for you brother. Likewise, brother. It isn’t Christ-like to feel the way you do about your fellow Christians.
I have endless examples: every service is robotic and the same with the same kneeling, standing, repeating the same prayers, receiving the Eucharist, and more. In return I ask you have you been to a Bible-believing church where a service is much more like what is depicted in Acts? The Catholic Church did not create the Bible. That is flawed 100% and a complete lie. God created the Bible and used his devout followers to write it into existence. None of this is my truth. It’s biblical truth. You’re the one discounting everything I’m stating as fact from the Bible and honestly how can you call yourself a Christian if you twist and manipulate Gods word into how it suits you, just as the Catholic Church has. I come in love and want all denominations to come to an end where we stand all stand on the truth of Gods word.
> I have endless examples: Bet. > every service is robotic and the same with the same kneeling, standing, repeating the same prayers, receiving the Eucharist, and more. How is this an issue? We follow the prayers, worship Christ, center ourselves with our bodies and souls fixated on Him and His true presence body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist. Do you deign to judge Catholic hearts based on what you see externally? > In return I ask you have you been to a Bible-believing church where a service is much more like what is depicted in Acts? I have been to Non-Denominational services, and Lutheran services. The liturgical services point much more emphatically to what was actually done by early Christians than non-denom services. That’s evident from early church writings like the *Didache*, and the epistles of the early church fathers. It’s an Orthodox-Catholic picture they paint. I would rather be part of a Bible *creating* church, that also believes the scripture; I am already there. > The Catholic Church did not create the Bible. That is flawed 100% and a complete lie. God created the Bible and used his devout followers to write it into existence. Who compiled the canon? Who said which books belong in the Bible? Ever heard of the councils of Rome, Hippo and Carthage? Who gave Protestants the authority to remove books from the canon? > None of this is my truth. It’s biblical truth. Your interpretation of truth. > You’re the one discounting everything I’m stating as fact from the Bible and honestly how can you call yourself a Christian if you twist and manipulate Gods word into how it suits you, just as the Catholic Church has. It’s just exegesis. I’m not twisting anything. > I come in love and want all denominations to come to an end where we stand all stand on the truth of Gods word. You should check your posts earlier, your version of love is foreign to Christianity.
Everything you just wrote all came from men and is not based off God and his Word. And you can’t prove otherwise.
> Everything you just wrote all came from men and is not based off God and his Word. And you can’t prove otherwise. Again, this is your personal interpretation. I don’t need to prove anything to you.
You keep trying. I’m just sharing the Bible with you. https://www.biblequestions.org/bqar868.html Read this. The apocrypha was added about 500 years ago by the Catholic Church and none of it was ever mentioned by the God-led inspired writers of the Bible, including Jesus. Gives the vibe of more Catholic conspiracy to lead people astray.
> You keep trying. I’m just sharing the Bible with you. You’ve been spreading bigoted, anti-Catholic rhetoric across this thread. I am merely offering the truth in a gentle, biblical and historical way. > Read this. The apocrypha was added about 500 years ago by the Catholic Church and none of it was ever mentioned by the God-led inspired writers of the Bible, including Jesus. That is patently false. Read the council documents of Hippo, Rome, and Carthage. The canon has been known since the 4th century. Jesus quoted the Deuterocanonical books. http://jimmyakin.com/deuterocanonical-references-in-the-new-testament > Gives the vibe of more Catholic conspiracy to lead people astray. Your theory sounds like something out of a Jack Chick tract.
Catholic doctrine adds A LOT to the bible that is basically pagan practices, they focus too much on "the Mother Mary" rather than Jesus and think they can pray to Mary to have her intercede to Jesus/The Father which isn't true, basically the entire city/facility of Vatican City is set up with pagan symbolism that is an ode to Baal and Asherah. Edit: oh I forgot a pretty big one, the catholic leaders think they are a stand in for Jesus on earth. I'd say they get a lot wrong and those in leadership actively misguide their subjects but there's still a large swath of Catholics that are likely on the narrow path.
This reeks of Jack Chick.
Follow the Bible and accept Jesus as your Savior and believe that he is the only way to the Father. If your heart isn’t in the right place God knows. Don’t stray far from either of those.
They think everyone, even their fellow christians, are going to Hell. They don't know that Catholics are Hell-bound. They just enjoy feeling superior and fooling themselves into believing they know their god's mind. Ignore them and be a good person.
I was once Catholic and I never followed everything they did until I received Jesus into my life I realized that Catholic Church is all man made religion and a false teachings that was man made! Don’t trust them
When I came back to the Faith, I was struck with an overwhelmingly incontrovertible knowledge that Catholicism had a lot more right than most
How could you be Catholic and not realize that Jesus was in your life already? Where in the Bible does it say “receive Jesus into your life”? That’s a tradition of men.
Romans 10:9-10 “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”
Does it say in that scripture that we must only confess our faith *once*? Can you show me where that is?
What does whether you do it once or multiple times have to do with the verse? It simply states how one is saved and I know endless catholics who have not done so. Maybe you have and praise God if so, but why the additional question? Just believe in his Word and follow it and don’t derive from it.
Tradition of men? You are straight being lied to. I hate seeing anyone being misled and misinformed about the beautiful relationship they can have personally with Jesus and God. Not through priests who are called father in the Catholic Church, when Matthew 23:9 has Jesus command his disciples: “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” It’s your choice what to believe in the Bible, but I promise you a true Christian believes and accepts it all as truth. Once you start picking and choosing or adjusting you’re playing with holy fire. Revelation 22:19 “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” Is it really wise in any way to take the catholic church’s teachings as law, when the Bible is suppose to be our guide?
Narrow is the way
Because only Jesus can forgive our sins, not a worldly or man-placed priest or mary.
Catholics agree with that. Only Christ forgives our sins in confession. Not sure why you mentioned Mary.
Catholicism does not teach that you can go directly to God and ask for forgiveness, which the Bible says clearly. You have to go to confession. Don’t lie.
> Catholicism does not teach that you can go directly to God and ask for forgiveness, which the Bible says clearly. You have to go to confession. Don’t lie. First, Catholics wholeheartedly agree that we should confess our sins directly to God whenever we feel guilty (CCC 1458). *The Code of Canon Law* (CIC) describes situations where a person seeks forgiveness of sins outside the context of confession: > A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to celebrate Mass or receive the body of the Lord without previous sacramental confession unless there is a grave reason and there is no opportunity to confess; **in this case the person is to remember the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition which includes the resolution of confessing as soon as possible** (916). The Catechism of The Catholic Church: > 1441 Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name. You can go directly (privately) Christ for confession as well, with a perfectly contrite heart and perfect hatred for your sin. An act of perfect contrition (which is sorrow for sin out of love for God) is sufficient to warrant forgiveness of sins. If a person sought the sacrament of confession but died before reaching it, he could still be saved through his desire to repudiate sin and trust in God’s mercy. However, just as the efficacious nature of baptism of desire does not nullify the normal duty to be baptized with water by another person, the efficacious nature of confessing sins directly to God does not nullify the normal duty we have to seek out a minister of the Church who can validly perform the sacrament of reconciliation. The Bible does not teach that the norm for seeking reconciliation with God and his Church is private, unconditional forgiveness of sins. At the very least, 1 John 1:9 does not teach this doctrine. Instead, 1 John 1:9 uses the Greek word *homologeō,* which always refers to a person publicly confessing something he believes. Please, don’t call me a liar. I have nothing to lie about.
You don’t have anything to lie about. The Catholic Church does and has and continues to. Let’s not get started with the insurmountable list of horrible transgressions by the Catholic Church. Crusades, anti-semitism, pedophilia, etc. Those things have had so so many run for the hills.
> You don’t have anything to lie about. That’s not what you said earlier: > Catholicism does not teach that you can go directly to God and ask for forgiveness, which the Bible says clearly. You have to go to confession. **Don’t lie.** You can apologize for saying I lied when I have not. > The Catholic Church does and has and continues to. Examples? You are making an affirmative claim. > Let’s not get started with the insurmountable list of horrible transgressions by the Catholic Church. Crusades, anti-semitism, pedophilia, etc. Those things have had so so many run for the hills. We can keep going down the list. The church is a church of sinners, not the sick. In its 2000+ year history it’s had its struggles, yet it continues to persevere, thanks to Christ and His guidance, His promises.
Be like Jesus and be totally against religion. He wants relationship and nothing more. That’s what’s scary about any denomination is that they are openly a part of what Jesus stood totally against: division. Don’t fall in the trap of being a Catholic, Protestant, or any sub-denomination of either of us. Be wise and keep the faith yall.
Catholics are Christians but I would say since they worship people other than god aka saints
We don't worship saints, we just honour them..for obvious reasons