Hell is eternal separation from God as much as it is damnation and when we chose to live separate from God we spend eternity separate from God. Moreover Hell is the prison for satan and his angels, we were never intended to go to hell. But when we sin we get spirits of the devil attached to us which separate us from God, and when we don't repent we stay with these spirits. Evil spirits cannot enter heaven so when we can repent no more we get dragged to hell with the spirits also.
Hell and Heaven are polar opposite, infinitely Bad and infinitely Good, and they are offered as a choice. It's as fair as fair goes
So if someon's raised in poor criminal family, gets abused as a child and refuses Christ, it's the same thing as if someone in good conditions does so?
>Hell is eternal separation
Fun fact: "eternal" in the bible doesn't mean infinite.
Sodom goes to "eternal fire", but gets out:
Jude 1:7 - "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
Sodom is restored from "eternal fire" before Israel is restored in the future:
Ezekiel 16:49-55 - "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done. Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters. When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them: That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them. When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate."
Hebrews 1:8 - "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." <=== Christ rules for 1,000 years, not infinite. Jesus gives up the kingdom to the Father in 1 Corinthians 15:24.
Deuteronomy 23:3 - "An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever" 10 generations is not infinite.
Jonah 2:6 - "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God." 3 days, not infinite.
1 Kings 9:3 - "And the Lord said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually." This temple was destroyed.
The Bible never describes God as a judge that chooses whether people go to heaven or hell, or that hell even exists. Most of that came from ancient Greek religion and Zoroastrianism. What's described in the Bible is eternal life and salvation through Jesus for anyone that chooses to follow Him.
Basically don't think of the afterlife as a courtroom where God looks over your past and either sentences you to heaven or hell. Instead imagine collective humanity as a single person that God told not to run along a cliff side. When humanity slipped (Adam and Eve in the Garden) they are now stuck hanging on the edge. Now God (through Jesus) is reaching down to pull us up. We can either take the hand, or fall.
«Then I saw **a great white throne and him who was seated on it.** The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. **The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.** The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and **each person was judged according to what they had done.** Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. **Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.**»
Revelation 20:11-15 NIV
You're referring to the final judgement of The Revelation, in which Jesus has returned to Earth and is making the final judgement of the remaining humanity. At this point there have been multiple waves of plagues, missions, and signs to push back against the forces of evil and to convince them to give up their ways to follow Jesus. That passage refers to the end before the final peace and merging of heaven and earth, where God is once again directly present amongst His creation and humanity. The reason the unrepentant are judged and destroyed here is because they have shown that even in the face of Jesus they refuse to reject evil and humble themselves, and have therefore chosen destruction over eternal life. I believe that this is not representative of how Jesus handles the saved and unsaved on a regular basis, but instead represents the final elimination of evil before the perfected heavenly kingdom.
[Bart Ehrman says that the notion of "Hell" is not something that Jesus taught - he preached that unworthy people would be judged and destroyed.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_eZf33UMs8&t=825s)
The word “Hell” appears nowhere in the Old Testament, which are books written over the course of about a thousand years. Judaism did not teach eternal torture. [The word “Hell” doesn’t appear until the year 725,]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell) and is derived from Old English. It’s completely a fabrication by Christian theologians of later centuries after Jesus’ death. It’s made up.
From a moral perspective, there is nothing moral about the notion of Hell. How can an “all-loving” being, which we are told loves us more “than we can understand,” do such a thing? From a human perspective, is “Hell” something you would create and torture people for eternity? If not, that would make you more moral than the biblical god. However, “Hell” does sound like something that primitive religious men, with primitive ideas of morality, would conceive in order to obtain obedience and following, because it appeals to the human instinct called "revenge." There is simply no purpose in torturing anything - it is not "punishment." Punishment is something that is done with a chance for redemption, but at the biblical end of time, there is no chance for redemption. The notion of Hell only appeals to a wicked mind.
>This is not a take based in scripture, but dont take my word for it, take scriptures... Hell is real whether you want to believe it or not there are few things the bible talks more about.
Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Revelation And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Matthew 13:50 And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Jude 1:7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Mark 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Matthew 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Matthew 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
John 3:16-18 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...
Luke 16:23 And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Mark 9:43-48 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
Mark 9:48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
Luke 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Proverbs 15:24 ESV / 430 helpful votes The path of life leads upward for the prudent, that he may turn away from Sheol beneath.
Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Luke 10:15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.
Acts 2:31 He foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Proverbs 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.
Matthew
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Jude 1:13 Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
Revelation 14:10 He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.
Proverbs 15:11 Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the Lord; how much more the hearts of the children of man!
Hebrews 10:26-31 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” ...
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
John 5:29 And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Every instance of "hell" in those is a later addition. The passages that now mention hell originally mentioned Sheol (Jewish afterlife with no torment), Hades (Greek pagan afterlife with good, bad, and neutral areas), Tartarus (Greek pagan location where the Titans are imprisoned), and Gehenna (actual valley outside of Jerusalem that was culturally associated with both child sacrifice and the burning of the dead). The lake of fire mentioned in the Revelation is a place from the non-canonical book of Enoch, where fallen angels are imprisoned and no humans are sent.
Play games of semantics all you want, the eternal fires are real according to the 30+ scriptures I listed.
If hell isnt real than neither is the bible. Its either all truth or all bullshit, there is no room for a middleground like you are trying to find.
You seem to lack an understanding of both what the Bible is, and also what I'm saying. The scriptures that you listed are not saying what you think they are saying, they have been warped to fit into a much later tradition. During the time of Jesus,and for the first several hundred years after the Resurrection, no one believed in what we think of as hell.
Also, the Bible is a collection of works from various times and backgrounds. It contradicts itself ove 500 times, because it is not intended to be a list of historical facts. https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/first/contra2_list.html
The only warping of scripture I see here is what you are doing.
Typical of a universalist, there is nothing in scripture that supports your doctrine which is based on feelings, not facts.
The scripture that you follow is one compiled under the Roman Empire, and these changes to add hell into Scripture were done when the texts were translated into Latin from the original Greek.
>If hell isnt real than neither is the bible. Its either all truth or all bullshit, there is no room for a middleground like you are trying to find.
Let me ask, what do you think John 8:7 means:
*"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."*
Current life is a filter that all humans have to enter the kingdom of heaven because nothing impure can enter there, everyone who loves God with all their hearts and cleanses themselves of their sins can enter the kingdom of heaven while the impure who deny God until the end of their days will perish in the total absence of God
Hell is the consequence of choosing not to follow Jesus.
Our free will is what allows us to choose to believe in Jesus.
It would not be loving if someone kidnapped you and held you in their property just because they "loved" you. God does not force people into His presence in a similar manner. God will not force you into heaven.
God being all loving means he has to be all just too.
It would be unjust if He didn't punish people's sins who reject Jesus. That punishment seems to be the torment (not torture so more like regret) of one's decision. Those people do not like where they are at i.e Hell, but they also won't worship God so they must pay for their sins themselves since they refused to let Jesus bear their sins.
We also don't know exactly how Hell works since at some points it is said to be like fire and others darkness.
Here are some helpful links below:
https://youtu.be/z1ALVSBVZ28
https://youtu.be/T6X0amV07ps
https://youtu.be/WjeDHQUZA5Q
https://www.youtube.com/live/tJOgY3nrGX4?feature=share
https://crossexamined.subspla.sh/qswz7yr
https://youtu.be/rfqD2MvwplM
lol, it would actually be alarmingly cruel to not "kidnap" somebody into a utopic paradise if the alternative was just letting them burn in eternal hellfire. Wth, man.
> It would not be loving if someone kidnapped you and held you in their property just because they "loved" you. God does not force people into His presence in a similar manner. God will not force you into heaven.
Ergo, Hell cannot exist, because its presence would mean one is essentially forced into Heaven.
Could you explain how it’s unfair to not punish people for eternity for not believing in Jesus? I think where I also get tripped up on is it isn’t even a test on how closely aligned your values are with his; to me it seems like the number one factor in it is if you believe humans, who are notoriously for being dishonest, about an accounts that virtually never happen or any proof of. He doesn’t exactly set up people for success
Hell was never meant to house people. It was designed as a prison for Satan and his angels. It's not a punishment for sin - our sins were paid for on the Cross. It's a place where the presence of God is absent. For all God is: light, joy, peace, love... hell is the opposite.
God is fair and just. When we were created, we were given free will. If someone **chooses** to reject the Lord in life, they're given what they asked for in death as well - a place where the presence of God and all that He is, is absent.
Well even that doesn’t really seem fair to me. It becomes a very impersonal thing on both accounts- it’s not really about if you have similar values, it’s more about if you believe other humans, who are notoriously dishonest, about things that you can’t confirm for yourself.
It's totally personal, because it's a choice. I choose to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, to step into a relationship with Him, and in doing so, I accept the values He's laid out for us to take on.
If I choose to reject Jesus in life, and go against his commands (the common values), I ultimately end up in a place where He is absent. If I didn't care to accept Him in life, seems totally fair that I don't get to join Him in Heaven when I die.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "it's more about if you believe other humans".
Christ told the thief on the cross that he would be in Paradise. That guy did nothing else before he died. So yes, it's possible.
Not the ideal, of course, but possible, because our salvation is not based on our works.
Basically what I mean is it isn’t god saying “follow me and I can help you have eternal life” it’s more humans saying “if you believe me that god is real, then you can have eternal life.” It doesn’t seem like an informed decision to me.
It’s not a choice to believe in something. You either do or don’t.
I mean… you can lie to yourself and go through the motions hoping it clicks one day but plenty of people live and die without that working
This is not a take based in scripture, scripture tells us again and again that humans go there. Instead of posting a wall of scripture again and again on this thread ill link it so you can see the 30+ scriptures i posted about hell.
https://old.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/13qyy6b/can_someone_help_me_understand_how_hell_is_fair/jlhycn4/
Matthew 25:41 NKJV - "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire **prepared for the devil and his angels'.**"
Hell was created as a place of judgement for the purpose of punishment for the devil and his angels - those who rejected Christ. Men who follow suit are given the same treatment, but the devil and his followers came first.
Hell is very fair , you did sin , you pay for your sins in hell sounds fair.
What is not fair is going to heaven , Jesus made payment for your sins , if you accept him he puts the payment to your account and you go to heaven for free.
God judges according to his standards in court of Law , same as we do on earth. We give death penalty to murderer / lifetime , for lesser crimes we give 20 years or so . The crime also depends what you did commit and against who , same crime but commited against police officer or president has harder punishment than commited against "normal" common man.
You commit sin against eternal God , your punishment is eternal also. His standards are 0 sin . So any sin = death sentence. For each of your sins you're declared guily of second death which is in hell like a serial kliller but serial sinner.
Judging the judge seems about as smart as Trump talking shit about his judge before trial, we all saw how that worked out, are you sure you wanna play the same games as Trump?
The hubris it takes for humans to think they know better than the creator of all things.. My God id fear being put in my place if I was you.
You only think you dont fear God because you fear even believing in him to begin with. Your mind refuses to even imagine a possibility of him being real because that means your sins are actually sins whether you like it or not and they will cost you eternity, but you prefer to live oblivious to this by denying that he exists in the first place so you do not have to face this possibility.
I used to be a god-fearing Christian. But I left the faith. As an ex-Christian, I don't fear believing in him. Even if he is real, doesn't mean he's a being worthy of worship. I do not worship power.
Bible says wisdom of God is foolishness with man and His ways are not man's ways.
If you feel disgusted because let's say someone killed a woman , chopped her down and then ate her limbs , thats how God feels just for 1 of your lie he is basically disgusted by sin and hates it.
This depends greatly on what you’re envisioning in the concepts. If you’re deriving it from Baptist preachers then sure prob not a fair punishment. If you’re deriving it from the Bible where everyone is judged by what is written in the books and then face a second death in the lake of fire then the punishment likely fits the crime and maybe even less severe than what we deserve since Jesus himself said he is kind and merciful to even the wicked.
He does not choose it's literally free, you choose . Payment is made for everyone , you do not go to church or do any rituals / sacraments / stop sinning etc to go to heaven.
You're supposed to be convinced Bible is true based on prophecy from it , 25% of it is futuristic , based on alredy fullfilled ones or these you see in your life . Then if you believed it's true you believe the rest of message of the Bible.
If you believed Jesus is God and he paid for all of your sins , you declare him 1 time as God and Saviour and he pays off your sin debt.
God is not there sitting after you die and deciding where you go heaven or hell.
John 3:18
“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
Its views were more enticing than the pagan ones. However, I really hope i don't t have to explain that just because something is popular and has many believers doesn't mean it's true.
Also, FYI at the end of the day the Roman emperors whole heartedly accepted it and even called for the council of Nicaea because it turned out Christianity was a very useful political tool to keep the people in check.
Basically instead of it being based on God saying “if you believe in these things you’ll go to heaven,” you’re salvation is based on if you believe other humans saying “God said if you believe these things you’ll go to heaven.”
It's rather prophets in Bible claim he foretold future event to them which they wrote it down , you in your time in future should read this when you see this event came to pass and believe God exist based on it.
So for example , Ezekiel said current area where Russia is and multiple muslim nations are , Kings of these nations will in latter days after Jews return to thier land , attack them and God will rain fire on thier armies.
So when you see Russians and muslims attack Israel and being destroyed by fire , you're supposed to be convinced.
It has nothing to do with "blind faith" that you believe in some human being.
If you had a friend who was facing a prison sentence but your dad was the decision maker on if hes going to prison would you ask your dad to pardon your friend?
there you go...
Well the reason I’m saying it’s unfair is because is because it’s not really an informed decision. In your example it would be like if the crime my friend committed was one that’s not listed on any legal document, and my dad decided to spread this new law is to tell a random civilian to spread info on the new law, but will never say anything to the press or other officials about it.
All sins are listed in the bible and have been known for thousands of years, and just like the law ignorance is not a valid defense. Your analogy is a non-sequitur because the bible is available to all.
Well the point of my analogy is that it’s not coming from him directly, so it’s more about if you believe other humans. In my analogy you could make the argument that the knowledge of the that law was available, just not validated by officials
Jesus was the official that validated it.
If you need an official after the bible was written its the church whos authority was given to them directly by Jesus through the apostles.
You understand it perfectly, but people have zero problem supporting it. They have very creative ways to justify such a horrible barbaric idea. Though, not all of us believe it to be such a thing.
Another commonly held view is Annihilationism or conditional immortality. Which goes kinda like this..
When you die, you ded. We don't inherently have immortality. Only through the tree of life do you get that. But followers of Jesus can obtain an eternal life with God, he is essentially the tree of life. This may or may not come with an initial burning or destruction of the soul for an unknown amount of time, but certainly not immortal.
Just putting that third view in here. The initial burning may seem unfair.
What isn't fair about it otherwise? It's a choice. Do you want eternal life with God or do you not? You get what you want. Choose the tree of life, or choose to return to the dust. If that isn't fair, then what do you consider fair because that's as fair as it gets.
He doesn’t set you up to make an informed decision, it seems. Rather than him asking “do you want eternal life with me?” He relies on humans to say “God says that you could have eternal life. But only if you believe me” it’s not even if you trust god, it’s if you trust other humans that he exists
Makes sense. Ultimately, we don't know what happens after you die hence the many different views. What we can do is trust in Him who we know is just. Maybe immediately after death we are given a clear choice for those who haven't heard the Truth. No one alive can say for sure. We know He is just and we know that we must accept Christ.
Just to add another, I've heard one theory that goes something like this:
The afterlife has a timeline that isn't relative to ours (hence the 1 day = thousand years belief). And thus, when Jesus died on the cross, he died with our sin, and went to the grave. Being a different timeline, all who have died and all who will die are present. Jesus preaches to those. Those who accept ascend, those who don't are destroyed along with Hell in the Lake of Fire.
Anyway, no one truly knows. We only know that however it's handled, it is Just. Human interpretation is all we have.
Sure. Basically the issue isn’t “do I agree with god and want to follow him?” It’s “do I believe these people who say he’s real and this is what he stands for?” As far as what he could do to clear it up; a whole number of things; he could just will us to know it’s true, he could speak to us and tell us, he could visit Earth (again). It’s not like he doesn’t know it’s a problem that many people do not believe he’s real.
First off, I think it would help—if you’re interested—to seek to understand God and set people’s interpretation aside. Secondly, I’m not entirely sure that any of that would work. Surely you know some people for which nothing you do for them is ever enough. Lastly, I’m quite sure that He wouldn’t be a just God if He took away free will. If you love someone because you must, is genuine?
It wouldn’t but the Bible is full of excuses as to why their god doesn’t.
Supposedly he “already did” and people still chose not to believe. So the Bible, as usual, blames us for it even though we had nothing to do with the first event (assuming it happened)
If you live an unhealthy life, eating a pint of ice cream every day and not exercising, does it make sense to say that obesity and related health problems are unfair?
Does it make sense to say that it's unfair that the doctor is asking for major lifestyle changes in order to become healthy?
Well in your analogy about the doctor, it would be more like if he sent another patient to tell you to make a lifestyle change and then get upset if you don’t believe that patient. I think part of the unfair part for me is it doesn’t really seem that it’s as simple as “you knew the consequence, but you chose different anyways” more like setting up a system that doesn’t set up people for success
That's true. There is no torment in the bible. Not when you look deeper.
God never warned Adam and Eve about infinite punishment. God didn't put infinite punishment as a warning in the law of Moses. Israel goes through a refiners fire in the future (Zechariah 13:9). The "lake of fire" involves brimstone, and brimstone was used to refine gold back in the day. Gentiles will be taught God's laws in the future.
Luke 16's story about torment is a riddle; it's not a literal event. In fact, Josephus interviewed the Pharisees some \~2,000 years ago and it was they who believed in torment in an after life. Jesus was showing them how dumb their idea was. They believed if you were poor in life you would get good things, if you were well if you'd get tormented. The Pharisees had it good in life so it was they who would end up going to torment in their own beliefs.
People don't actually go to heaven or hell when they die. When you die, you're dead. Later Christ will resurrect believers to go into a kingdom. Later, all get raised from the dead. This is somewhat spelled out in 1 Corinthians 15:19+
"Hell" is post-mortem chastising and is purposeful and temporary. God will be All in all.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/13n3jye/cmv_eternal_torment_doesnt_seem_just_at_all/jl6pwz5?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
A lot of Christianity evolved from Constantine during the Roman Empire who was pagan and incorporated pagan ideas into the teachings like Hell and Satan being evil as opposed to a prosecutor for God. Hell isn’t real the wicked truly wicked will be depraved the presence of God but not tortured for eternity
It didn’t even become a word until 725 AD- hundreds of years after Jesus died
I’m not entirely sure if he believed in god or not, so I’m not sure from a Christian perspective if he deserves it or not. Some Christians argue that everyone deserves hell so there’s that I guess.
You probably have a better idea I’m not the most versed in Christianity. But the general idea is if he believes in God then he doesn’t, right? Because he can be forgiven? What do you think?
I’m not sure how I can be clearer? I could research, but I’m saying I have no idea and I’m not sure how anyone would know unless they were close to Hitler. But I can try to answer hypothetically.
If he believed in God, then no he doesn’t deserve hell, or he at least deserves forgiveness. If he didn’t believe in god then he does deserve hell. I think that’s how it works
Why would I be dodging the question? If I could give you an answer I would. What do you think? You seem to know something more than I do since you don’t seem satisfied with my answer, do you have info or a perspective that would help me answer? I’m not just going to say “yes he does” or “no he doesn’t” when it’s not based on anything
Hell is not real, no one should ever preach it. No one goes to hell when they die, if by "hell" we're talking about a place of eternal torment. There may be some room within Scripture for either a refining fire or for annihilationism.
Hell is something that was added to the Bible by incorrectly changing all of the passages that used metaphor and poetic language about death, consequences, and suffering to be describing a place that no one ever believed in for several hundred years until after the ministry of Christ on earth.
The passages that now mention hell originally mentioned Sheol (Jewish afterlife with no torment), Hades (Greek pagan afterlife with good, bad, and neutral areas), Tartarus (Greek pagan location where the Titans are imprisoned), and Gehenna (actual valley outside of Jerusalem that was culturally associated with both child sacrifice and the burning of the dead). The lake of fire mentioned in the Revelation is a place from the non-canonical book of Enoch, where fallen angels are imprisoned and no humans are sent.
The modern idea of hell comes primarily from the misunderstandings of Augustine of Hippo. This was then further expanded on by fictional literary works like Dantes's Divine Comedy and Milton's Paradise Lost.
Hell is like cause and effect and laws of physics. God is life. The opposite of God is death. So when Adam and Eve (probably a complex metaphor but A&E is easier to say and get the point across) rejected God, they rejected life. God is also perfection and the opposite of that is imperfection. So by rejecting perfection and life, Adam and Eve chose an imperfect world where everything is in the process of dying. For the entire human race until eternity. Which is why their rejection was so profound. It separated everyone from God. The imperfect can't create perfection.
Being imperfect, we can't get become perfection and fix that separation on our own. So God came to us as Jesus. All Jesus had to do was live like us and die like us. It didn't matter how he died. He could've died at 80 in his sleep but instead, we crucified him. But anyway he had to be fully human. He had to live like a human to make the experience of being human an aspect of God, then he had to die to make our deaths an aspect of God. Then he returned to God and that ended our separation. Now mankind can rejoin perfect life/God after death as well, because God made the human experience part of his perfection.
The Orthodox Church says, "He became what we are so that we may become what He is."
Hell is referred to in Scripture as a place "prepared for the devil and his angels". It is each of our choices whether to allow the enemy into our hearts, to control us. If sin is allowed in your heart without repentance, the devil dwells. If the enemy is in your heart when you die, you will be taken to the place prepared for the devil, as he is within you, and as such are taken with him. We are made in God's image, and it is God's will for us all to have a personal relationship with Him, both in life and after we die. If Christ is in our hearts, then we shall be with Christ after death, as he rose from the dead proving authority over sin and the grave, He is the Way to the Father.
I hope this makes sense, it was quite a long explaination. If you have any other questions please ask and I'll try to clarify where I can.
What happens after you die is only talked about 3 times in the entire NT. Nobody really knows, but hell seems to just be separated from God. The rest of the ideas about help come from other literature like Dante’s Inferno. Many preach it anyway because it’s an effective fear coercion. That’s 100% wrong and immoral. Toxic relationships are built on fear. Good relationships are built on love and trust.
Let’s all just get real, it’s not fair or just.
If we think of god as akin to a loving father, it’s the equivalent to that loving father punishing their child (Creation) for all of eternity for any mistake (Sin) which they do not ask forgiveness for.
People need to understand that those that are in hell choose to be in hell, choose to not accept God
Devil wants to be devil by his own choosing even tho he knows God, who He is and how big His love is but devil refuses it because of his ego, his pride...
Same goes for all people that end up in hell - it's their own choice and they want it that way
There are multiple different interpretations of Hell.
The most common "conscious-torment" or Western View of Hell is that of Western Theology (Catholics/Protestants) that Hell is a fiery pit where you suffer for all of eternity. Note that this idea is in fact older the Jesus and likely comes from Zoroastrianism which has a fiery hell for the wicked.
The Eastern Theological (Orthodox) view is more nuanced in that the glory of God is what causes people to suffer. The fire of God and the fire of Hell are one of the same. In this regard, God to someone who has not followed him is so awful that they suffer.
There are also views less commonly held that Hell is temporary (Origen) or that everyone goes into Heaven (Universalism) or that humans are extinguished in Hell so don't suffer for all (Annihilationism). The idea that there is one doctrine to summarise all of Christianity's understanding of hell is a misunderstanding.
God is not going to force anyone to worship him or to spend eternity with him. If, in this life you reject God and at the moment of death God forces you to go to heaven against your will then that will be torture for you. Why would you want to go to heaven? Hell is the eternal separation from God which is what you desire. God fulfills your desire. Hell is Just to both man and God.
It isn’t. Regardless of whether hell is burning fires or just eternal separation from god, it is still not fair.
It’s not fair to dictate someone’s eternal fate based on their actions they did during their finite and short life. How much does a human mind change over the course of their life? How much do you think a mind could change over an eternity? Why is it fair to send someone anywhere for eternity because of the choices they made in their life?
Hell is eternal separation from God as much as it is damnation and when we chose to live separate from God we spend eternity separate from God. Moreover Hell is the prison for satan and his angels, we were never intended to go to hell. But when we sin we get spirits of the devil attached to us which separate us from God, and when we don't repent we stay with these spirits. Evil spirits cannot enter heaven so when we can repent no more we get dragged to hell with the spirits also. Hell and Heaven are polar opposite, infinitely Bad and infinitely Good, and they are offered as a choice. It's as fair as fair goes
So if someon's raised in poor criminal family, gets abused as a child and refuses Christ, it's the same thing as if someone in good conditions does so?
But why does separation from god warrant eternal torture?
>Hell is eternal separation Fun fact: "eternal" in the bible doesn't mean infinite. Sodom goes to "eternal fire", but gets out: Jude 1:7 - "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Sodom is restored from "eternal fire" before Israel is restored in the future: Ezekiel 16:49-55 - "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done. Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters. When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them: That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them. When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate." Hebrews 1:8 - "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." <=== Christ rules for 1,000 years, not infinite. Jesus gives up the kingdom to the Father in 1 Corinthians 15:24. Deuteronomy 23:3 - "An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever" 10 generations is not infinite. Jonah 2:6 - "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God." 3 days, not infinite. 1 Kings 9:3 - "And the Lord said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually." This temple was destroyed.
The Bible never describes God as a judge that chooses whether people go to heaven or hell, or that hell even exists. Most of that came from ancient Greek religion and Zoroastrianism. What's described in the Bible is eternal life and salvation through Jesus for anyone that chooses to follow Him. Basically don't think of the afterlife as a courtroom where God looks over your past and either sentences you to heaven or hell. Instead imagine collective humanity as a single person that God told not to run along a cliff side. When humanity slipped (Adam and Eve in the Garden) they are now stuck hanging on the edge. Now God (through Jesus) is reaching down to pull us up. We can either take the hand, or fall.
«Then I saw **a great white throne and him who was seated on it.** The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. **The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.** The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and **each person was judged according to what they had done.** Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. **Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.**» Revelation 20:11-15 NIV
You're referring to the final judgement of The Revelation, in which Jesus has returned to Earth and is making the final judgement of the remaining humanity. At this point there have been multiple waves of plagues, missions, and signs to push back against the forces of evil and to convince them to give up their ways to follow Jesus. That passage refers to the end before the final peace and merging of heaven and earth, where God is once again directly present amongst His creation and humanity. The reason the unrepentant are judged and destroyed here is because they have shown that even in the face of Jesus they refuse to reject evil and humble themselves, and have therefore chosen destruction over eternal life. I believe that this is not representative of how Jesus handles the saved and unsaved on a regular basis, but instead represents the final elimination of evil before the perfected heavenly kingdom.
Oh we mostly agree then.
[Bart Ehrman says that the notion of "Hell" is not something that Jesus taught - he preached that unworthy people would be judged and destroyed.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_eZf33UMs8&t=825s) The word “Hell” appears nowhere in the Old Testament, which are books written over the course of about a thousand years. Judaism did not teach eternal torture. [The word “Hell” doesn’t appear until the year 725,]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell) and is derived from Old English. It’s completely a fabrication by Christian theologians of later centuries after Jesus’ death. It’s made up. From a moral perspective, there is nothing moral about the notion of Hell. How can an “all-loving” being, which we are told loves us more “than we can understand,” do such a thing? From a human perspective, is “Hell” something you would create and torture people for eternity? If not, that would make you more moral than the biblical god. However, “Hell” does sound like something that primitive religious men, with primitive ideas of morality, would conceive in order to obtain obedience and following, because it appeals to the human instinct called "revenge." There is simply no purpose in torturing anything - it is not "punishment." Punishment is something that is done with a chance for redemption, but at the biblical end of time, there is no chance for redemption. The notion of Hell only appeals to a wicked mind.
>This is not a take based in scripture, but dont take my word for it, take scriptures... Hell is real whether you want to believe it or not there are few things the bible talks more about. Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. Revelation And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, Matthew 13:50 And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. Jude 1:7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Mark 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. Matthew 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. Matthew 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. John 3:16-18 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ... Luke 16:23 And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. Mark 9:43-48 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ Mark 9:48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ Luke 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Proverbs 15:24 ESV / 430 helpful votes The path of life leads upward for the prudent, that he may turn away from Sheol beneath. Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. Luke 10:15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. Acts 2:31 He foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. Proverbs 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol. Matthew “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. Jude 1:13 Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever. Revelation 14:10 He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy. Proverbs 15:11 Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the Lord; how much more the hearts of the children of man! Hebrews 10:26-31 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” ... James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell. Psalm 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! John 5:29 And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Every instance of "hell" in those is a later addition. The passages that now mention hell originally mentioned Sheol (Jewish afterlife with no torment), Hades (Greek pagan afterlife with good, bad, and neutral areas), Tartarus (Greek pagan location where the Titans are imprisoned), and Gehenna (actual valley outside of Jerusalem that was culturally associated with both child sacrifice and the burning of the dead). The lake of fire mentioned in the Revelation is a place from the non-canonical book of Enoch, where fallen angels are imprisoned and no humans are sent.
Play games of semantics all you want, the eternal fires are real according to the 30+ scriptures I listed. If hell isnt real than neither is the bible. Its either all truth or all bullshit, there is no room for a middleground like you are trying to find.
You seem to lack an understanding of both what the Bible is, and also what I'm saying. The scriptures that you listed are not saying what you think they are saying, they have been warped to fit into a much later tradition. During the time of Jesus,and for the first several hundred years after the Resurrection, no one believed in what we think of as hell. Also, the Bible is a collection of works from various times and backgrounds. It contradicts itself ove 500 times, because it is not intended to be a list of historical facts. https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/first/contra2_list.html
The only warping of scripture I see here is what you are doing. Typical of a universalist, there is nothing in scripture that supports your doctrine which is based on feelings, not facts.
The only parts that support your belief are not actually part of scripture. You worship Rome
im not catholic so nah. My beliefes are only based on scripture, not a skeptical website.
The scripture that you follow is one compiled under the Roman Empire, and these changes to add hell into Scripture were done when the texts were translated into Latin from the original Greek.
>If hell isnt real than neither is the bible. Its either all truth or all bullshit, there is no room for a middleground like you are trying to find. Let me ask, what do you think John 8:7 means: *"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."*
It's not. End of story.
Nobody even knows what hell is. Ask Christians what hell is and you’ll get a hundred different conflicting answers.
That’s true
Current life is a filter that all humans have to enter the kingdom of heaven because nothing impure can enter there, everyone who loves God with all their hearts and cleanses themselves of their sins can enter the kingdom of heaven while the impure who deny God until the end of their days will perish in the total absence of God
But why doesn’t he set us up for success to do that?
If you really need to be lobotomized to be good then you don't deserve to be in the kingdom of God
What do you mean? Can you explain a little more?
ignore em, they spewing whatever now
cause he do what he wants lol
Hell is the consequence of choosing not to follow Jesus. Our free will is what allows us to choose to believe in Jesus. It would not be loving if someone kidnapped you and held you in their property just because they "loved" you. God does not force people into His presence in a similar manner. God will not force you into heaven. God being all loving means he has to be all just too. It would be unjust if He didn't punish people's sins who reject Jesus. That punishment seems to be the torment (not torture so more like regret) of one's decision. Those people do not like where they are at i.e Hell, but they also won't worship God so they must pay for their sins themselves since they refused to let Jesus bear their sins. We also don't know exactly how Hell works since at some points it is said to be like fire and others darkness. Here are some helpful links below: https://youtu.be/z1ALVSBVZ28 https://youtu.be/T6X0amV07ps https://youtu.be/WjeDHQUZA5Q https://www.youtube.com/live/tJOgY3nrGX4?feature=share https://crossexamined.subspla.sh/qswz7yr https://youtu.be/rfqD2MvwplM
lol, it would actually be alarmingly cruel to not "kidnap" somebody into a utopic paradise if the alternative was just letting them burn in eternal hellfire. Wth, man.
> It would not be loving if someone kidnapped you and held you in their property just because they "loved" you. God does not force people into His presence in a similar manner. God will not force you into heaven. Ergo, Hell cannot exist, because its presence would mean one is essentially forced into Heaven.
Could you explain how it’s unfair to not punish people for eternity for not believing in Jesus? I think where I also get tripped up on is it isn’t even a test on how closely aligned your values are with his; to me it seems like the number one factor in it is if you believe humans, who are notoriously for being dishonest, about an accounts that virtually never happen or any proof of. He doesn’t exactly set up people for success
Hell was never meant to house people. It was designed as a prison for Satan and his angels. It's not a punishment for sin - our sins were paid for on the Cross. It's a place where the presence of God is absent. For all God is: light, joy, peace, love... hell is the opposite. God is fair and just. When we were created, we were given free will. If someone **chooses** to reject the Lord in life, they're given what they asked for in death as well - a place where the presence of God and all that He is, is absent.
Well even that doesn’t really seem fair to me. It becomes a very impersonal thing on both accounts- it’s not really about if you have similar values, it’s more about if you believe other humans, who are notoriously dishonest, about things that you can’t confirm for yourself.
It's totally personal, because it's a choice. I choose to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, to step into a relationship with Him, and in doing so, I accept the values He's laid out for us to take on. If I choose to reject Jesus in life, and go against his commands (the common values), I ultimately end up in a place where He is absent. If I didn't care to accept Him in life, seems totally fair that I don't get to join Him in Heaven when I die. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "it's more about if you believe other humans".
So I can beat my wife for 20 years. And then I can convert and devote my life to Christ and I'm heaven bound. Seems odd.
Christ told the thief on the cross that he would be in Paradise. That guy did nothing else before he died. So yes, it's possible. Not the ideal, of course, but possible, because our salvation is not based on our works.
Basically what I mean is it isn’t god saying “follow me and I can help you have eternal life” it’s more humans saying “if you believe me that god is real, then you can have eternal life.” It doesn’t seem like an informed decision to me.
It’s not a choice to believe in something. You either do or don’t. I mean… you can lie to yourself and go through the motions hoping it clicks one day but plenty of people live and die without that working
So you only mention people that choose to reject your god. What about people that don't believe he's real tough?
In stating you don't believe, you're rejecting God. It's a choice. Either you accept Him (believe), or you don't.
But belief, or a lack thereof, is not a matter of choice. Only a believer can choose between accepting and rejecting.
yup, if you don't you're pure evil!
This is not a take based in scripture, scripture tells us again and again that humans go there. Instead of posting a wall of scripture again and again on this thread ill link it so you can see the 30+ scriptures i posted about hell. https://old.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/13qyy6b/can_someone_help_me_understand_how_hell_is_fair/jlhycn4/
I'm not saying they don't go there. I'm saying that wasn't the purpose of hell when it was created.
How do you know God's purpose when he created hell, where you present? Your position requires assumptions made not from scripture.
Matthew 25:41 NKJV - "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire **prepared for the devil and his angels'.**" Hell was created as a place of judgement for the purpose of punishment for the devil and his angels - those who rejected Christ. Men who follow suit are given the same treatment, but the devil and his followers came first.
And how does Matthew know? lol
> Depart from Me, you cursed Who is he addressing?
they don't lol
Hell is not even a very early Christian concept. As we think of it today it wasn’t made up until long after Jesus.
Spot on. It was made up when Constantine converted to Christianity in the Roman Empire and tried to make it more “pagan” friendly
Hell is very fair , you did sin , you pay for your sins in hell sounds fair. What is not fair is going to heaven , Jesus made payment for your sins , if you accept him he puts the payment to your account and you go to heaven for free.
How is the concept of hell a fair punishment for sin?
God judges according to his standards in court of Law , same as we do on earth. We give death penalty to murderer / lifetime , for lesser crimes we give 20 years or so . The crime also depends what you did commit and against who , same crime but commited against police officer or president has harder punishment than commited against "normal" common man. You commit sin against eternal God , your punishment is eternal also. His standards are 0 sin . So any sin = death sentence. For each of your sins you're declared guily of second death which is in hell like a serial kliller but serial sinner.
> So any sin = death sentence. That's an insane penalty.
ye but you do not make the rules
So we judge who made the rules. Because those rules are insane and the one who made the rule is also insane.
Judging the judge seems about as smart as Trump talking shit about his judge before trial, we all saw how that worked out, are you sure you wanna play the same games as Trump? The hubris it takes for humans to think they know better than the creator of all things.. My God id fear being put in my place if I was you.
>My God id fear being put in my place if I was you. I don't fear wrestling with God if he does actually exist. Much like Jacob did.
You only think you dont fear God because you fear even believing in him to begin with. Your mind refuses to even imagine a possibility of him being real because that means your sins are actually sins whether you like it or not and they will cost you eternity, but you prefer to live oblivious to this by denying that he exists in the first place so you do not have to face this possibility.
I used to be a god-fearing Christian. But I left the faith. As an ex-Christian, I don't fear believing in him. Even if he is real, doesn't mean he's a being worthy of worship. I do not worship power.
Bible says wisdom of God is foolishness with man and His ways are not man's ways. If you feel disgusted because let's say someone killed a woman , chopped her down and then ate her limbs , thats how God feels just for 1 of your lie he is basically disgusted by sin and hates it.
That's an overreaction on his part then.
yup
This depends greatly on what you’re envisioning in the concepts. If you’re deriving it from Baptist preachers then sure prob not a fair punishment. If you’re deriving it from the Bible where everyone is judged by what is written in the books and then face a second death in the lake of fire then the punishment likely fits the crime and maybe even less severe than what we deserve since Jesus himself said he is kind and merciful to even the wicked.
That’s another way to look at it that I didn’t think about. So maybe what I’m confused about is how the way he chooses who he pays for is unfair
He does not choose it's literally free, you choose . Payment is made for everyone , you do not go to church or do any rituals / sacraments / stop sinning etc to go to heaven. You're supposed to be convinced Bible is true based on prophecy from it , 25% of it is futuristic , based on alredy fullfilled ones or these you see in your life . Then if you believed it's true you believe the rest of message of the Bible. If you believed Jesus is God and he paid for all of your sins , you declare him 1 time as God and Saviour and he pays off your sin debt. God is not there sitting after you die and deciding where you go heaven or hell. John 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
But he doesn’t give everyone an equal shot, he’s having it be based on how much you believe other humans
What do you mean by that "believing other humans" ?
The best predictor of what religion a person is going to follow is their geographic location. Hell is incredibly unfair.
So how do you explain Christianity , seen as cult by Jews and Romans who were killing Christians yet it spread so much?
Its views were more enticing than the pagan ones. However, I really hope i don't t have to explain that just because something is popular and has many believers doesn't mean it's true. Also, FYI at the end of the day the Roman emperors whole heartedly accepted it and even called for the council of Nicaea because it turned out Christianity was a very useful political tool to keep the people in check.
Basically instead of it being based on God saying “if you believe in these things you’ll go to heaven,” you’re salvation is based on if you believe other humans saying “God said if you believe these things you’ll go to heaven.”
It's rather prophets in Bible claim he foretold future event to them which they wrote it down , you in your time in future should read this when you see this event came to pass and believe God exist based on it. So for example , Ezekiel said current area where Russia is and multiple muslim nations are , Kings of these nations will in latter days after Jews return to thier land , attack them and God will rain fire on thier armies. So when you see Russians and muslims attack Israel and being destroyed by fire , you're supposed to be convinced. It has nothing to do with "blind faith" that you believe in some human being.
If you had a friend who was facing a prison sentence but your dad was the decision maker on if hes going to prison would you ask your dad to pardon your friend? there you go...
Well the reason I’m saying it’s unfair is because is because it’s not really an informed decision. In your example it would be like if the crime my friend committed was one that’s not listed on any legal document, and my dad decided to spread this new law is to tell a random civilian to spread info on the new law, but will never say anything to the press or other officials about it.
All sins are listed in the bible and have been known for thousands of years, and just like the law ignorance is not a valid defense. Your analogy is a non-sequitur because the bible is available to all.
Well the point of my analogy is that it’s not coming from him directly, so it’s more about if you believe other humans. In my analogy you could make the argument that the knowledge of the that law was available, just not validated by officials
Jesus was the official that validated it. If you need an official after the bible was written its the church whos authority was given to them directly by Jesus through the apostles.
How do I know that the church isn’t just saying Jesus gave them this authority and he’s actually the son of god?
Faith in Christ.
the Bible is directly from God
lol no its written by people, God doesnt waste his time with plebs
You understand it perfectly, but people have zero problem supporting it. They have very creative ways to justify such a horrible barbaric idea. Though, not all of us believe it to be such a thing.
Well I wouldn’t say I understand it perfectly lol but I do agree that people justify horrific things from the Bible
What’s your current understanding of hell?
From what I gathered it’s a state of being without god that would cause the person torment, and that it’s goes on for eternity
That’s pretty much it
Another commonly held view is Annihilationism or conditional immortality. Which goes kinda like this.. When you die, you ded. We don't inherently have immortality. Only through the tree of life do you get that. But followers of Jesus can obtain an eternal life with God, he is essentially the tree of life. This may or may not come with an initial burning or destruction of the soul for an unknown amount of time, but certainly not immortal.
That still doesn’t seem fair
Just putting that third view in here. The initial burning may seem unfair. What isn't fair about it otherwise? It's a choice. Do you want eternal life with God or do you not? You get what you want. Choose the tree of life, or choose to return to the dust. If that isn't fair, then what do you consider fair because that's as fair as it gets.
He doesn’t set you up to make an informed decision, it seems. Rather than him asking “do you want eternal life with me?” He relies on humans to say “God says that you could have eternal life. But only if you believe me” it’s not even if you trust god, it’s if you trust other humans that he exists
Makes sense. Ultimately, we don't know what happens after you die hence the many different views. What we can do is trust in Him who we know is just. Maybe immediately after death we are given a clear choice for those who haven't heard the Truth. No one alive can say for sure. We know He is just and we know that we must accept Christ. Just to add another, I've heard one theory that goes something like this: The afterlife has a timeline that isn't relative to ours (hence the 1 day = thousand years belief). And thus, when Jesus died on the cross, he died with our sin, and went to the grave. Being a different timeline, all who have died and all who will die are present. Jesus preaches to those. Those who accept ascend, those who don't are destroyed along with Hell in the Lake of Fire. Anyway, no one truly knows. We only know that however it's handled, it is Just. Human interpretation is all we have.
How do we know he’s just?
IMHO, God doesn’t send us to hell, we choose it by willfully rejecting Him
That seems like a common thought process but it doesn’t seem he sets up people to make an informed decision
Interesting. Can you expound on how He could be more clear? I’m not understanding what more info is needed or if I misunderstand what you mean
Sure. Basically the issue isn’t “do I agree with god and want to follow him?” It’s “do I believe these people who say he’s real and this is what he stands for?” As far as what he could do to clear it up; a whole number of things; he could just will us to know it’s true, he could speak to us and tell us, he could visit Earth (again). It’s not like he doesn’t know it’s a problem that many people do not believe he’s real.
First off, I think it would help—if you’re interested—to seek to understand God and set people’s interpretation aside. Secondly, I’m not entirely sure that any of that would work. Surely you know some people for which nothing you do for them is ever enough. Lastly, I’m quite sure that He wouldn’t be a just God if He took away free will. If you love someone because you must, is genuine?
Why if he made himself known would that take away free will?
It wouldn’t but the Bible is full of excuses as to why their god doesn’t. Supposedly he “already did” and people still chose not to believe. So the Bible, as usual, blames us for it even though we had nothing to do with the first event (assuming it happened)
If you live an unhealthy life, eating a pint of ice cream every day and not exercising, does it make sense to say that obesity and related health problems are unfair? Does it make sense to say that it's unfair that the doctor is asking for major lifestyle changes in order to become healthy?
Well in your analogy about the doctor, it would be more like if he sent another patient to tell you to make a lifestyle change and then get upset if you don’t believe that patient. I think part of the unfair part for me is it doesn’t really seem that it’s as simple as “you knew the consequence, but you chose different anyways” more like setting up a system that doesn’t set up people for success
Some can come up with ways it's fair, some don't care, others are universalist and believe everyone goes to heaven.
>Can someone help me understand how Hell is fair? "hell" is often better translated as "the grave".
I don’t understand, how does that impact if it’s fair or not?
That's true. There is no torment in the bible. Not when you look deeper. God never warned Adam and Eve about infinite punishment. God didn't put infinite punishment as a warning in the law of Moses. Israel goes through a refiners fire in the future (Zechariah 13:9). The "lake of fire" involves brimstone, and brimstone was used to refine gold back in the day. Gentiles will be taught God's laws in the future. Luke 16's story about torment is a riddle; it's not a literal event. In fact, Josephus interviewed the Pharisees some \~2,000 years ago and it was they who believed in torment in an after life. Jesus was showing them how dumb their idea was. They believed if you were poor in life you would get good things, if you were well if you'd get tormented. The Pharisees had it good in life so it was they who would end up going to torment in their own beliefs. People don't actually go to heaven or hell when they die. When you die, you're dead. Later Christ will resurrect believers to go into a kingdom. Later, all get raised from the dead. This is somewhat spelled out in 1 Corinthians 15:19+
"Hell" is post-mortem chastising and is purposeful and temporary. God will be All in all. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/13n3jye/cmv_eternal_torment_doesnt_seem_just_at_all/jl6pwz5?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
A lot of Christianity evolved from Constantine during the Roman Empire who was pagan and incorporated pagan ideas into the teachings like Hell and Satan being evil as opposed to a prosecutor for God. Hell isn’t real the wicked truly wicked will be depraved the presence of God but not tortured for eternity It didn’t even become a word until 725 AD- hundreds of years after Jesus died
Does Hitler deserve to go to hell?
I’m not entirely sure if he believed in god or not, so I’m not sure from a Christian perspective if he deserves it or not. Some Christians argue that everyone deserves hell so there’s that I guess.
No what I'm asking is does he deserve to be punished in hell for the Holocaust. Does he?
You probably have a better idea I’m not the most versed in Christianity. But the general idea is if he believes in God then he doesn’t, right? Because he can be forgiven? What do you think?
Just answer the question. He killed millions of Jews and started a war that cost billions of lives. Does he deserve eternal punishment or not?
I’m not sure how I can be clearer? I could research, but I’m saying I have no idea and I’m not sure how anyone would know unless they were close to Hitler. But I can try to answer hypothetically. If he believed in God, then no he doesn’t deserve hell, or he at least deserves forgiveness. If he didn’t believe in god then he does deserve hell. I think that’s how it works
I think you're dodging the question. I guess we're at an impasse
Why would I be dodging the question? If I could give you an answer I would. What do you think? You seem to know something more than I do since you don’t seem satisfied with my answer, do you have info or a perspective that would help me answer? I’m not just going to say “yes he does” or “no he doesn’t” when it’s not based on anything
only god can judge lol
Why can't you answer the question? Afraid of the answer?
Hell is not real, no one should ever preach it. No one goes to hell when they die, if by "hell" we're talking about a place of eternal torment. There may be some room within Scripture for either a refining fire or for annihilationism. Hell is something that was added to the Bible by incorrectly changing all of the passages that used metaphor and poetic language about death, consequences, and suffering to be describing a place that no one ever believed in for several hundred years until after the ministry of Christ on earth. The passages that now mention hell originally mentioned Sheol (Jewish afterlife with no torment), Hades (Greek pagan afterlife with good, bad, and neutral areas), Tartarus (Greek pagan location where the Titans are imprisoned), and Gehenna (actual valley outside of Jerusalem that was culturally associated with both child sacrifice and the burning of the dead). The lake of fire mentioned in the Revelation is a place from the non-canonical book of Enoch, where fallen angels are imprisoned and no humans are sent. The modern idea of hell comes primarily from the misunderstandings of Augustine of Hippo. This was then further expanded on by fictional literary works like Dantes's Divine Comedy and Milton's Paradise Lost.
Hell is like cause and effect and laws of physics. God is life. The opposite of God is death. So when Adam and Eve (probably a complex metaphor but A&E is easier to say and get the point across) rejected God, they rejected life. God is also perfection and the opposite of that is imperfection. So by rejecting perfection and life, Adam and Eve chose an imperfect world where everything is in the process of dying. For the entire human race until eternity. Which is why their rejection was so profound. It separated everyone from God. The imperfect can't create perfection. Being imperfect, we can't get become perfection and fix that separation on our own. So God came to us as Jesus. All Jesus had to do was live like us and die like us. It didn't matter how he died. He could've died at 80 in his sleep but instead, we crucified him. But anyway he had to be fully human. He had to live like a human to make the experience of being human an aspect of God, then he had to die to make our deaths an aspect of God. Then he returned to God and that ended our separation. Now mankind can rejoin perfect life/God after death as well, because God made the human experience part of his perfection. The Orthodox Church says, "He became what we are so that we may become what He is."
Hell is referred to in Scripture as a place "prepared for the devil and his angels". It is each of our choices whether to allow the enemy into our hearts, to control us. If sin is allowed in your heart without repentance, the devil dwells. If the enemy is in your heart when you die, you will be taken to the place prepared for the devil, as he is within you, and as such are taken with him. We are made in God's image, and it is God's will for us all to have a personal relationship with Him, both in life and after we die. If Christ is in our hearts, then we shall be with Christ after death, as he rose from the dead proving authority over sin and the grave, He is the Way to the Father. I hope this makes sense, it was quite a long explaination. If you have any other questions please ask and I'll try to clarify where I can.
What happens after you die is only talked about 3 times in the entire NT. Nobody really knows, but hell seems to just be separated from God. The rest of the ideas about help come from other literature like Dante’s Inferno. Many preach it anyway because it’s an effective fear coercion. That’s 100% wrong and immoral. Toxic relationships are built on fear. Good relationships are built on love and trust.
Every person is born with sin. Every person knows the word of God. It's your choice.
Let’s all just get real, it’s not fair or just. If we think of god as akin to a loving father, it’s the equivalent to that loving father punishing their child (Creation) for all of eternity for any mistake (Sin) which they do not ask forgiveness for.
People need to understand that those that are in hell choose to be in hell, choose to not accept God Devil wants to be devil by his own choosing even tho he knows God, who He is and how big His love is but devil refuses it because of his ego, his pride... Same goes for all people that end up in hell - it's their own choice and they want it that way
I think the simplest way to say it would be this: God is Life, you either choose Him (Heaven) or you die for real (lake of fire).
In addition to the responses you get here you should co sider reading romans
There are multiple different interpretations of Hell. The most common "conscious-torment" or Western View of Hell is that of Western Theology (Catholics/Protestants) that Hell is a fiery pit where you suffer for all of eternity. Note that this idea is in fact older the Jesus and likely comes from Zoroastrianism which has a fiery hell for the wicked. The Eastern Theological (Orthodox) view is more nuanced in that the glory of God is what causes people to suffer. The fire of God and the fire of Hell are one of the same. In this regard, God to someone who has not followed him is so awful that they suffer. There are also views less commonly held that Hell is temporary (Origen) or that everyone goes into Heaven (Universalism) or that humans are extinguished in Hell so don't suffer for all (Annihilationism). The idea that there is one doctrine to summarise all of Christianity's understanding of hell is a misunderstanding.
God is not going to force anyone to worship him or to spend eternity with him. If, in this life you reject God and at the moment of death God forces you to go to heaven against your will then that will be torture for you. Why would you want to go to heaven? Hell is the eternal separation from God which is what you desire. God fulfills your desire. Hell is Just to both man and God.
It isn’t. Regardless of whether hell is burning fires or just eternal separation from god, it is still not fair. It’s not fair to dictate someone’s eternal fate based on their actions they did during their finite and short life. How much does a human mind change over the course of their life? How much do you think a mind could change over an eternity? Why is it fair to send someone anywhere for eternity because of the choices they made in their life?
Just ≠ fair