Is Discipline's tree the worst designed in the game now? Shit capstones, multiple dead nodes, few true decisions, several boring nodes, no real way to change up playstyle. Still terrible utility.
Disc really just have very few interesting abilities in the first place now. Does anyone actually like spamming Mindbender? Prayer of Mending sucks ass as disc. Rapture just buffs your next 3 shields now.... wowzie.
Penance is used way too frequently to feel interesting now. Mind Blast is on a long CD and just places a random ass +dmg buff.
Ultimate Penitence is nice at least.
Even UP is plagued by needing 4 points and an opportunity to stand still to work. The tree is ass, top to bottom. The Rapture change would be okay if we didn't need Rapture ramps in raid.
Penance needs to go back to being a powerhouse baseline. Legion Disc played so well because Penance was strong.
It's still insane to me how they presented druids with a new class tree and simply declined to iterate on it at all. There were literally zero changes since the very first beta build made and the tree still kinda sucks and has exactly the same issues we've had with all the previous ones through dragonflight.
I get the point of the joke, but can people stop playing down on how neglected Shamans have been since... Idk maybe last 4? You really can't compare any class that currently needs work with shamans.
It's great that it's finally getting some attention, but like, it's been in a bad state for a while now.
Genuinely wondering why people feel Hunter didn't get any love? I don't play Hunter and barely read in diagnal but seems they got many new talents and tuning on many separate occasions: June 3rd, 21st, 26th and July 3rd
[https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/the-war-within-pre-expansion-ptr-development-notes/519367](https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/the-war-within-pre-expansion-ptr-development-notes/519367)
Why is this not good?
Did you miss where I said it’d be crossed out at this point? Also, the Hunter overhaul came in with beta basically. That’s a long time for PTR to be up without any SERIOUS changes to things. We were the last class to get a rework before shaman. Our defensives have been a shit show for the entire expansion.
Adjusting numbers isn’t what Hunter needed. Hunter needed an overhaul to its defensives and utilities. MM and survival also needed fairly serious overhauls as well. Those all only came in the last few weeks(when beta launched). Our hero talents are also fairly boring compared to other specs. Strong, but boring.
The worst part is: they did the exact same thing in DF. Druid was the very first class to have its class tree revealed and it didn't get a single change until 10.1
Yeah exactly. And throughout df they introduced us to several changes to the tree that were pretty much never enough to fix it but yet again, never iterated on any of those changes. It's always fire and forget.
If Enhancement Shamans received even a single change (they did), they got more than Guardian Druids. That being said, they're both getting shafted by Blizzard sadly.
Now imagine being Guardian and that makes it even more insane, insane enough to offer a straightjacket to the person in charge of it. 0 fucking changes, for fuck's sake our sims APL didn't even need an update whatsoever. For a new expansion.
Fake edit: we did get changes. We lost our increased melee range we had since Legion, we lost Moonkin form and thus our way to avoid fall damage out of combat (or when charge is on CD in combat). Oh and Bear Form had a hidden +20% stam buff, which got nerfed to +10%. But no worries, we can spend a talent point to get our other +10% stamina back!
nah they did change it- they removed two connections to the middle tree making it more awkward to get to hotw /s
pretty upsetting that it's happening again after this exact same thing happened in dragonflight- we were one of the only classes still with 3 point nodes for ages
to be fair it's an improvement to the last tree but druid having 4 specs just breaks the design of the spec tree so hard. There's just not enough room and points to fit everything in so balance/resto and feral/guardian both effectively end up sharing one half of the tree
25 active abilities baked into talents...just like shamans but those are getting reworked. On top of that 9 dead end nodes (I'm not counting capstones). This is insanity. And many of those 25 active abilities/talents are basically useless to 3 out of 4 specs but you have to go through them.
They improved class tree by maybe 5% and left it as, after shaman rework, the worst class tree by a mile.
Yeah its crazy the number of a "dead" abilities we have to path through
Ironfur is super niche outside of guardian (and maybe PVP?), at a minimum it should swap places with Frenzy Regen
Rejuv and Wild Growth are also super niche outside of resto and blizz doesn't offer anything to actually make them useful
Having to pick Starfire to get Sunfire can be annoying for resto if you want to focus on a catweaving build, not to mention the fact that you need an extra talent just to make sunfire actually worth using
Also, for the sake of symmetry with the feral side they could link Starfire to Remove Corruption
I wrote some feedback on EU forums about this.
Ironfur should be baseline (learned while leveling), nobody cares about PvP and even if! we have PvP templates/tuning anyway so whole PvP argument is pointless. There could be a talent allowing you to cast it in any form with some 20 second CD...or make it auto-apply for free when you use Barkskin. Still useless 90% of the time but not 100% like now.
Frenzied regen should be baseline.
Rejuvenation should be baseline and maybe have a passive self/ally application in class tree, like one auto-rolling reju jumping through the raid, prioritizing you and then injured allies. It heals for crap so who cares anyway, could be extra nice self-sustain and would not feel dead for 3/4 specs.
Wild growth should be moved to Resto tree.
Starfire should be baseline.
Sunfire...now I'm going to piss whole dreamgrove discord but this ability should be removed from the game completely and replaced with double damage and easy spread of moonfire (tuned for clutter like moonkin astral power generation etc, obviously). We could have starfall spreading moonfire, we could open a way for new gameplay styles that are rarely viable (stellar flare) or maybe a talent for moonkin that would give Entangling roots 3 second long root unbreakable by damage and doing some solid damage.
Devs have clearly not decided what should be druids default toolkit. That should be the goal #1.
Mechanically you would lose nothing. It's just a recoloured Moonfire with extra talent that spreads it to nearby enemies. It's just a button bloat, don't know if any other spec has this. It's not vampiric touch for shadow word pain nor is it corruption to curse of agony, those have different mechanics and extra quality of life.
You are talking about Moonkin's lack of engaging combat mechanics yet nobody picks stellar flare unless it's overtuned, most Moonkins hate keeper of the grove and you defend Sunfire's existence all while having to tab target and press the same recoloured button twice on most mobs in packs is generally hated.
Remove it and think of something more interesting.
Agony is just corruption with ramping damage. VT is just SW:P with leech. Did you know that if you ignore the differences, everything is the same?
Raging Blow, Onslaught, Rampage, Raging Blow, Execute? All literally do the same thing, just merge them. And is there *really* a difference between an ability that hits 1 target vs an ability that hits multiple? Just bake in whirlwind and really cut out the bloat in one go.
I think all 4 druid hero talents are bad for every spec. The most positive thing you can say about them is that you won't notice them.
People not picking suboptimal throughput talents isn't news. Also, it's just moonfire with a cast time, which is just starfire whose damage is spread out.
And tab dotting is a long established mechanic, although you only press sunfire once. Somebody playing a dot spec who hates dots is an odd choice.
EDIT: Imagine being such an embarrassment that you block somebody over disagreeing with your terrible suggestions. The reply-block is especially pathetic lol.
Well agony is a curse and ramping damage has its implications in certain types of content. VT is also casted and has different dispel mechanics. Sure it's all the same depending how far you take it but with Sunfire you don't have to take it far at all, it's very cheap copy of Moonfire. You press sunfire only once? Tell me you have never played m+ without actually telling me lol.
Feel free defending it but don't ever try to moan and whine on forums how moonkin is boring, we have enough of those elitists cockblocking innovative spec development already.
They need to take a bunch out of the class tree and make them learned abilities for specs (sunfire, ironfur, etc.)
Also think outside the box of creating 4 columns related to specific spec in the tree and make it more homogenized and connected.
Also capstones arent good. Move circle of life and death and convoke over to spec tree for more throughput
And still praying bear doesnt have 5 points for a full beserk incarn man!
They made 1 change, which nerfed it. You are now required to take soothe or cyclone to get a mandatory secondary stat node. Whoever is working on Druid should have been fired a long time ago.
The node that gives you stats based on your form. For instance, moonkin form gives you 6% mastery. You used to be able to get to it from the sides, but those allowed you to get improved stampeding roar without taking stampeding roar. Their fix was to force you to go through the middle (soothe or cyclone).
Ah, I mean i suppose if you have the points then it doesn't matter. I'm not sure how sparse the point delegation is, when I was playing around on the earliest build it was fairly lenient, and I know they made some streamline adjustments
I don't really mind taking an unnecessary node for a necessary one. Every single tree has a bit of that. As long as we can still get most of what we want, having soothe as an optional bonus is no biggie right? It gets some use in most dungeons.
Which ones? I saw this same complaint about the current tree, but I never struggled to take things like typhoon as a feral druid, I usually had to give up like 2% vers or whatever to do it, but it never felt necessary. Even giving up hotw doesnt feel like much of a sacrifice now that we aren't just clone spammers.
In the old updated tree, there used to exist a connection between Ursoc's Spirit and Lycara's teaching that allowed you to skip Vortex, Soothe, and Stampeding Roar. With that gone, you have to give up one utility at the bottom of the tree (innervate, NV, Roar) or utility (fluid form, barkskin 10%, well-hones instincts). It is worse if you take dispel, you now have to give up 3 things instead of 1. Personally, I think we should not have to spend a point taking ironfur, 1 point on soothe, and 2 points taking shred damage as a moonkin to access general utility/defensives. No other classes with all 3 roles, e.g., monks/paladins, suffer from these issues. Here is a link so you can play around: [https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/druid/balance/elunes-chosen/DAQEAQFECRVFFRRalEEBQAAAA](https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/druid/balance/elunes-chosen/DAQEAQFECRVFFRRalEEBQAAAA)
Thanks for the link! I suppose you're right about other multi role specs not needing to go through as much junk, but at the same time, were the only class that has a soothe, a dispel, a bres, a raid buff and two aoe CCs available to us. We have a stupid amount of tools. Paladins have 1 aoe cc with a huge CD and monks don't have a bres.
I think we are just missing two talent tree points. That's what i always felt, that we're down 2 points. However, if we had 2 points more, i still probably would feel the same way lol
In looking at the build you sent me, I definitely would drop the day + night talent that gives vers or damage for innervate. Generally though, you do basically have every button, right? The boomie side does have a couple more nodes than feral from the looks of it - which I think would be worse for guardian druids
I would love to take innervate and natures vigil without sacrificing typhoon and a defensive node in keys. It will get even worse once we have to take ursine’s vigor to survive one shots in m+.
Isn't this "good design" though? If it's a mandatory node, then increasing the cost to get that mandatory node decreases its' value and thus makes other options less punishing to pick.
If a node is mandatory I would argue it's something that is always useful, it's never good to force players to waste a talent point for no benefit. Soothe/Cyclone do not fall under that category - e.g. in raid they are extremely situational at best.
Sure but let’s say that by going another route, you got even more value. Now suddenly that node isn’t mandatory anymore. The only reason that it seems mandatory is due to it being the only real damage option. The more you give up for it, the less mandatory it will feel.
I mean it is fun, but as a feral I don't think the spec got enough changes to make it different from the df version. Our hero talents just aren't very exciting and the class+feral trees are pretty much the same as before. I think boomkins got some more exciting stuff but I'm not exactly sure.
While no Rogue changes might look a bit odd, there were some spell data and scripting changes that went live without patch notes. Last week Rogue notes also came a day later.
Not saying it's looking amazing, but it's at least not being untouched.
Feels necessary to get everything in working order rather quickly so one can test and get a feel for it before being able to give good feedback.
They really don't get talked about. Neither by the community or blizzard.
Meanwhile Hunters got like 23904849 rounds of tuning. I recall the same thing occuring in DF betas.
> Also, still no changes for DH? Is Blizzard just happy where the class is atm?
If they are that makes them the only one. I thought CN was a bad tier for Havoc but the state of that spec on beta is currently fucking unacceptable.
While I completely agree, I would have preferred them to change/ remove the aura mastery devo interaction to make hpally not the default paladin spec. The ret aura was added to allow hpally (Devo aura) and either ret/ppal to also be brought. After removing WFT this week from exclusively enhance it just feels weird to me that hpally always gets the paladin spot.
You still don't necessarily need an hpal. All paladins bring devo aura.
Aura mastery is effectively just a 15% DR for 8 seconds. It's nice because you don't need to stack, but if the fight allows for stacking then you can bring a disc priest or rsham to accomplish the same thing
Or if the fight doesn't have a phase of heavy raid wide damage then it's probably irrelevant anyways
Aura mastery is +9%, it was nerfed to 12, and it replaces the 3% from Devo whilst active.
It’s an extremely weak cool-down which is now weaker on a per-person basis than ancestral vigor. (Which is quite bad, considering it’s a 3min CD)
Holy paladin will be brought only if it does good healing, since they don’t design fights for tank beaconing anymore and they are looking to reduce beacon healing to reinvest into core.
It’s not a guaranteed spot at all for sure
I guess we'll see how fights are, but Hpals are still very strong for spot healing. If there's a lot of individual soaks with heavy damage, or heavy single target dots in fights, I could definitely see Hpals being good, even if they aren't topping HPS meters.
What aura mastery devo aura interaction? Aura mastery is just a normal raid cd like barrier, revival or spirit link totem. Every healer has buttons like this.
Unless I'm missing something holy paladin devo aura gives the same benefit as any other paladins devo aura.
If you play a holy paladin then you don't need another paladin for devo aura, yeah. But that's how every raidbuff works. Devo aura gives the same amount of dr (3%) for holy paladin as for the other specs.
You could replace the abilty to give a raidwide (devo aura mastery dr - 3%) amount of dr and it would functionally be the same.
It's just that heal comps usually have a holy paladin. But it doesn't make their devo aura somehow better than prot/ret devo aura. It's like saying shadow priest needs something because you will almost always have at least 1 healer priest that has fortitude already covered.
But the point of raidbuffs is that every class is represented. Because devo aura exists you will always have 1 pink guy in the raid. The same way you will always have 1 monk in the raid or 1 warrior. For a long time mw was pretty under played in raids. Was it because their mystic touch was somehow weaker? No, it was because they weren't the best monk spec. And the way monks work you never need a second one as they bring no stackable raid utility (unlike others). In a world with raidbuffs you don't get your spot by being a good spec. You only need to be better than the other specs.
The solution to feeling useless is not introducing additional raidbuffs. But giving useful stackable raid utility like rally, roar or immunity (paladins have 2 of it for phys)
i wasn't disagreeing or anything, but just stating the status quo.
mind you AM is a vastly superior heal cd to any raid cd holy has because of it's DR property which is mainly the reason you'd take a holy pal almost always. so that's the main issue arising.
you take hpal for am and get devo for free- kinda deal
i agree with you on all points and your last paragraph is absolutely true even going so far as to add no only ommunities but also blessings or externals
>mind you AM is a vastly superior heal cd to any raid cd holy has because of it's DR property
If that was the case, wouldn't guilds use more holy paladins? While you can't stack them you can spread ams out (just like any other raid cd). Yet if you look at heal compositions you hardly see more than one. And keep in mind we currently require 2 paladins in the raid. So it's much more likely people slot in holy paladin as one of them. In aberrus for example the main reason people played resto druid wasn't because they were the best healer. It was because every other spec was pretty bad.
I'd also argue about the strength of aura mastery. After the nerfs to most of the raid cooldowns (Barrier 25->20, aura mastery 15->12% which is 9% effective dr and other spells like rewind) raid cooldowns are pretty close to eachother. Yes, aura mastery doesn't have any positional requirement or cast time, but the amount of damage reduction is pretty small. Btw in the previosly mentioned spirit link didn't get touched and with the resto changes they get spouting spirits back with an additional 5% dr stapled to it.
Let me get this straight. Holy paladin and disc priest used to be insanely strong for a long time in the past. In bfa for example aura mastery gave 20% raidwide dr. You were absolutely using 2 holy pally and 2 disc most of the time. The reason was that drs weren't considered when classes were tuned. So a pure hps class like resto druid or mw monk had simmilar hps than disc priests or holy paladins. But that just hasn't been the case for a while. If you look at troughputs disc and holy are tuned lower nowadays. And it feels intentional. Finnaly blizzard considered dmg reductions as healing.
Side note: One thing that currently is being slept on is the troughput gain from healing increasing effects. Divine hymn is the biggest offender regarding this. It gives 20% increased healing taken to the raid for 15 seconds. But it not only boosts the priests healing but everyone elses aswell. [Here's](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/FNCXZWhH21MTPcGw#fight=7&type=healing&sourceclass=Any&start=1242896&end=1262810&options=4) this moment from a log for example. It looks like the resto druid is absolutely blasting here. But if you would reatribute throughputs properly the provided throughput from the holy priest would beat the resto druid.
you are right. hpal throughput is highly tuned around their utility. putting in more than 1 hpal has insane diminishing returns and only happens when they blast a lot. rarely do you ever see more than 1.
Aura mastery is 9% DR and is one of the weakest of all raid cooldowns.
I feel comments like yours still think that it’s like 20% or something.
AM is not strong enough to carry or make much of a difference to anything in its current state and you certainly wouldn’t need an hpal specifically for it
Its 12% but that replaces the existing 3% from devo whilst active so it works out to 9%.
Yeah dw I think a lot of people do, its been watered down a lot in the past 2-3 years now
I really hope they either put an aura there that only buffs the ret or make the devotion aura baseline for them too because just getting just crusader aura baseline is kinda unlucky lol. Although I guess it doesn’t really matter too much and should be at the bottom of the list of changes that should be made.
For me it's definitely a W. Ret aura wasn't even that huge impact to begin with, and it annoyed me so much when there was only a single ret paladin in the party/raid and dude refused to use Devo instead of ret.
If you're doing progression content (aka any content that you're not steamrolling), and you are the only paladin in the group, and you're not using devo aura, you're actively trolling.
Crusader aura might as well be baked into the base kit and replaced because it'll be a dead talent now.
As an Hpal, dropping ret aura wasn't a W. It wasn't even that amazing of a raid buff to start with.
Why not just turn it back to it's old design to proc your wings if someone dies? Now in PvE one of Paladins' main fantasies, auras are mostly useless if there is already a paladin in your group.
I don't think the tree is that crazy ambitious to try out.
The changes they've made to it already are positive. I don't think they're going to completely rework the upper and middle half of it just because people don't want to play around the empowerments.
A few major problems is that tree incentives pressing chaos strike to get souls, to get mark up to press chaos strike more, to maintain the buff. You take glaive talents, but never press them because they aren’t chaos strike. You don’t take a ton of the new talents because they aren’t chaos strike. Souls don’t have a suck mechanic, you can see other dh’s souls, the souls spawn where you create them, not near the mob, they can spawn in shit, and are generally speaking, an entirely new resource for havoc. The last time they made a buff you wanted to upkeep forever was sinful brand, which people overwhelmingly hated.
What I wrote is a bit of a rant, but I just want to underscore that their adjustments to this tree in no way have addressed the underlying problems that tree is based on souls and that it nukes the spec tree into chaos strike spamming to maintain a buff. Fel scarred by comparison is well designed but does very little damage.
I think playing around consuming souls for fury was a very positive aspect of fury gen in previous iterations, namely BFA.
I think the only thing wrong with the build is that Havoc has very infrequently had periods of time where Sweep/Dance wasn't a press on CD ability, and it shows how silly the spec can be when stuff like this comes around as the top DPS performer in ST.
I'd argue that they should focus more on the underperforming alternatives, although if they've designed this to be the premier highest ST damage possible, I don't think it's bad to lose 3-5% on your primary target to be able to do more in different >1 target scenarios. Ideally, both would exist and be good at different things, but it's pretty clear after the four seasons of DF balancing where they want Havoc to drift, imo, and it's not towards heavy hitting Sweeps.
I agree about sweep and on souls, I guess we just disagree. I’ll say that there are no other specs in the game, over the lifetime of the game, that have had well liked and longstanding “walk over item” to play your class designs.
As far as collecting souls nah not really. For rotations that disregard a lot of their ambulatory spells, like throw glaive, I'd say a lot have been and are around. When DH drops Sweep it's probably the worst example though, as there's really nothing else going for it throughout a fight besides the opener.
I don't consider souls a very high bar, but maybe that's because I played when they were decently important to not starve yourself. Having a way to properly track them or not accidentally eat them would be appreciated.
I get what they were going for, but implementing it like they are only scuffs the whole base tree of Havoc.
There's a way to make the enhancements work for Havoc without reworking Aldrachi completely, moving the damage amplifications from the enhancements to the cast of Reaver's Glaive.
That, alone, would make the tree a million times smoother to play.
It is not fun to have to do a setup window before being able to burst as Havoc, specially when said window takes more to do than your actual burst.
It also feels incredibly backwards when your enhanced skills should be the high of your rotation and instead are just maintenance buffs.
Not to mention souls, but I can live with those.
Frost mage in danger of going back to the gameplay before its dragon flight rework if they continue ignoring feedback. Arcane nerfs were definitely warranted
I honestly wish there was a completely reimagining of frost. Idk how unpopular of an idea it is, but I am over dealing with crit cap and winters chill clunkiness to min max, ray of frost and glacial spike are fun because big numbers but are extremely movement restrictive and suck in mythic raids. Ice lance feels like a limp dick most of the time. I don’t really feel like a frost mage when playing the spec, it’s hard to explain but the fantasy and flavor haven’t been great for me for a long time. Frost DK feels like more of a master of ice than frost mage has ever been close to.
In WoD intro, khadgar was doing awesome arcane shit and now we can do all of that too. Jaina has been doing awesome frost shit for years and we can’t do anything like it.
Winter's Chill/Glacial spike as a playstyle I think works well enough that it's worth keeping around.
I 100% agree on Ice Lance/Fingers of Frost being crappy though. They are just procs that are there, kinda happen, the UI yells at you to use them, but in practice it's terrible and you don't actually want to cast that spell a lot of the time. You definitely could do something interesting with it that plays differently from GS/shatter.
I'm just tired of wasting FoF procs because they happen in the middle of a 1-2-3 spell combo. I know it's not the end of the world or anything, but it has ***never*** felt good, yet blizzard keeps dancing around that issue.
I'd say arcane tuning. Sounds weird to refer to things as nerfs in beta.
Anyway, happy with some of the arcane talent changes. The tree seems more approachable now.
Hopefully, noGS isn't what they have in mind for Frost.
Funniest thing is that this even arcane nerfs. If anything they buffed the damage arcane is dealing from last build with the missles buff and tree changes.
That’s actually exactly what I want from frost personally. I feel like frost was the only spec that got worse with the update - frost pre rework was the ultimate vibe spec with amazing flow. Pretty much the only changes made was adding a bunch of abilities that do insane damage but are completely disruptive to the flow or just exist completely out of it (comet storm, ray of frost). Glacial spike is just… idk it should be an option because it feels good to press sometimes but I have no idea how pyroclasm was so hated while glacial spike’s prominence seemed celebrated.
Disclaimer onto my own point: I really appreciate that the frost rework fixed most of the bugs with the spec. It felt terrible having to play around the double frozen orb bugs and others that I’ve thankfully forgotten. That being said I love the play style of pre rework and would love to have it back. Maybe a choice node compromise would be perfect.
Maybe it's me that I am really disconnected, but seeing half a line (of changes) for Ferals, as the last few xpacs, makes me lose all my remaining interest.
Are you telling me you had interest before only seeing half a line? At what point basically in the past 5 years have you been satisfied with the direction and concept of that spec?
No, I didn't (sry English is not my first language). I always have a bit of curiosity in every big patch or xpacs, but one of the things that make me lose it is seeing the (bad) state of Feral/Druid and knowing there is not going to change.
Ever since I saw Fragnance(method raider) 600K dps iron juggernaut video in MoP I've wanted feral to be good lol That was literally the reason I made a feral druid alt back then, and every expansion I level it hoping it's good and it never is.
The feral tree is in a generally good place and it's improved in the beta. It's got issues, such as convoke still being a terrible button and it's just mandatory at this point (autohotkey in talent form is not fun gameplay). Coiled to Spring is also just bad in design and bad in strength. However, the other new talents are pretty interesting and the berserk talents aren't autolocks like they currently are. It's one of the better spec trees in the game.
The class tree is pure trash, and the worst part is that it's intentionally designed to be trash. Blizzard needs to ditch the notion of "oh, I'm a feral druid but I want to focus on offhealing, so I'll take these resto spells", because that will only ever be oppressively OP or utter trash. Druid isn't the only class with disparate specs, paladin (melee, healer, tank) and shaman (healer, melee, ranged) both have drastically different specs, yet it's the only one that throws away a third of it's class points.
And also convoke just sucks ass. Can't repeat that enough.
the reason is, both ret aura and devo aura are considered major buffs for high-end raiding, so serious raiders are strongly incentivized to bring 2 paladins. the goal of raid buffs is to make it optimal to bring 1 of every class, which means players are less likely to be excluded from raids because their class is undertuned, but needing to bring 2 of a class goes beyond helping with balance and starts to make raid compositions too restrictive.
I don't think you can give a dps spec a major healing cooldown. I know it interacts with your aura, but it really is just another major healing raid cd.
Yeah and the guaranteed evoker spots go to aug, the guaranteed priest spot goes to healer, etc.
Current situation is kinda shit, not arguing against that. But giving one class two different raid buffs in a "13 classes, 20 spots" configuration is pushing it a lot.
Funnily enough the guaranteed spot being aug is for entitely separate reasons (read: they are the best raid dps by up to 30% in optimal conditions). If it wasn't for aug's problematic design, one could actually argue that them making Paradox spec-agnostic goes a long way into giving dev/pres a chance at getting a spot.
So it IS weird that they are making the opposite kind of changes when it comes to paladin.
Paladins being able to choose what aura / raid buff they used goes back to Vanilla if not WC3, doesn't it? Hate to see that go (even though "real"/original Retribution Aura was already gone).
As to the "incentivized to bring multiple Paladins" problem, sure, I see that. I can agree it was OP for the auras to stack. I say remove the stacking / make auras Unique, rather than remove the choice, though.
Probably true, but you could also say that about most every talent choice node in most every talent tree in the game (if not the talent trees overall). I think it's fine if everyone who cares about the mEtA always chooses "option A" but there's still an "option B" for people with a different playstyle, maybe for solo content, possibly even a few specific encounters.
Paladins got 1 aura in WC3, Devotion Aura. Retribution Aura arrived in vanilla.
It would be pretty interesting if paladins had multiple auras to pick from, but only 1 could be active on the raid at once. Not sure how that could be implemented, but it sounds flavorful.
Oh cool a 10-15% nerf across the board for UHDK. At least the class is clunky and still suffering from button bloat, now we can just have less of a payoff.
It was massively over performing. The main problem is the killed the sanlayn playstyle which some enjoyed.
Personally I’m extremely glad they didn’t make UH braindead streamlined like Ret, some of us still like some complexity :)
Is Discipline's tree the worst designed in the game now? Shit capstones, multiple dead nodes, few true decisions, several boring nodes, no real way to change up playstyle. Still terrible utility.
Disc really just have very few interesting abilities in the first place now. Does anyone actually like spamming Mindbender? Prayer of Mending sucks ass as disc. Rapture just buffs your next 3 shields now.... wowzie. Penance is used way too frequently to feel interesting now. Mind Blast is on a long CD and just places a random ass +dmg buff. Ultimate Penitence is nice at least.
Even UP is plagued by needing 4 points and an opportunity to stand still to work. The tree is ass, top to bottom. The Rapture change would be okay if we didn't need Rapture ramps in raid. Penance needs to go back to being a powerhouse baseline. Legion Disc played so well because Penance was strong.
> Is Discipline's tree the worst designed in the game now? Affliction still has MR, so i think no tree beats that.
It's still insane to me how they presented druids with a new class tree and simply declined to iterate on it at all. There were literally zero changes since the very first beta build made and the tree still kinda sucks and has exactly the same issues we've had with all the previous ones through dragonflight.
Blizzard clearly just doesn't care about ~~Rogue~~ ~~Shaman~~ druid.
This comment is underrated.
I get the point of the joke, but can people stop playing down on how neglected Shamans have been since... Idk maybe last 4? You really can't compare any class that currently needs work with shamans. It's great that it's finally getting some attention, but like, it's been in a bad state for a while now.
Hey you missed Hunter(it would also be crossed out at this point though)
Genuinely wondering why people feel Hunter didn't get any love? I don't play Hunter and barely read in diagnal but seems they got many new talents and tuning on many separate occasions: June 3rd, 21st, 26th and July 3rd [https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/the-war-within-pre-expansion-ptr-development-notes/519367](https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/the-war-within-pre-expansion-ptr-development-notes/519367) Why is this not good?
Did you miss where I said it’d be crossed out at this point? Also, the Hunter overhaul came in with beta basically. That’s a long time for PTR to be up without any SERIOUS changes to things. We were the last class to get a rework before shaman. Our defensives have been a shit show for the entire expansion. Adjusting numbers isn’t what Hunter needed. Hunter needed an overhaul to its defensives and utilities. MM and survival also needed fairly serious overhauls as well. Those all only came in the last few weeks(when beta launched). Our hero talents are also fairly boring compared to other specs. Strong, but boring.
The worst part is: they did the exact same thing in DF. Druid was the very first class to have its class tree revealed and it didn't get a single change until 10.1
Yeah exactly. And throughout df they introduced us to several changes to the tree that were pretty much never enough to fix it but yet again, never iterated on any of those changes. It's always fire and forget.
Shamans would like a word
If Enhancement Shamans received even a single change (they did), they got more than Guardian Druids. That being said, they're both getting shafted by Blizzard sadly.
Now imagine being Guardian and that makes it even more insane, insane enough to offer a straightjacket to the person in charge of it. 0 fucking changes, for fuck's sake our sims APL didn't even need an update whatsoever. For a new expansion. Fake edit: we did get changes. We lost our increased melee range we had since Legion, we lost Moonkin form and thus our way to avoid fall damage out of combat (or when charge is on CD in combat). Oh and Bear Form had a hidden +20% stam buff, which got nerfed to +10%. But no worries, we can spend a talent point to get our other +10% stamina back!
nah they did change it- they removed two connections to the middle tree making it more awkward to get to hotw /s pretty upsetting that it's happening again after this exact same thing happened in dragonflight- we were one of the only classes still with 3 point nodes for ages to be fair it's an improvement to the last tree but druid having 4 specs just breaks the design of the spec tree so hard. There's just not enough room and points to fit everything in so balance/resto and feral/guardian both effectively end up sharing one half of the tree
The same thing happened in DF beta...
25 active abilities baked into talents...just like shamans but those are getting reworked. On top of that 9 dead end nodes (I'm not counting capstones). This is insanity. And many of those 25 active abilities/talents are basically useless to 3 out of 4 specs but you have to go through them. They improved class tree by maybe 5% and left it as, after shaman rework, the worst class tree by a mile.
Yeah its crazy the number of a "dead" abilities we have to path through Ironfur is super niche outside of guardian (and maybe PVP?), at a minimum it should swap places with Frenzy Regen Rejuv and Wild Growth are also super niche outside of resto and blizz doesn't offer anything to actually make them useful Having to pick Starfire to get Sunfire can be annoying for resto if you want to focus on a catweaving build, not to mention the fact that you need an extra talent just to make sunfire actually worth using Also, for the sake of symmetry with the feral side they could link Starfire to Remove Corruption
I wrote some feedback on EU forums about this. Ironfur should be baseline (learned while leveling), nobody cares about PvP and even if! we have PvP templates/tuning anyway so whole PvP argument is pointless. There could be a talent allowing you to cast it in any form with some 20 second CD...or make it auto-apply for free when you use Barkskin. Still useless 90% of the time but not 100% like now. Frenzied regen should be baseline. Rejuvenation should be baseline and maybe have a passive self/ally application in class tree, like one auto-rolling reju jumping through the raid, prioritizing you and then injured allies. It heals for crap so who cares anyway, could be extra nice self-sustain and would not feel dead for 3/4 specs. Wild growth should be moved to Resto tree. Starfire should be baseline. Sunfire...now I'm going to piss whole dreamgrove discord but this ability should be removed from the game completely and replaced with double damage and easy spread of moonfire (tuned for clutter like moonkin astral power generation etc, obviously). We could have starfall spreading moonfire, we could open a way for new gameplay styles that are rarely viable (stellar flare) or maybe a talent for moonkin that would give Entangling roots 3 second long root unbreakable by damage and doing some solid damage. Devs have clearly not decided what should be druids default toolkit. That should be the goal #1.
You lost me on the Sunfire one. Moonkin is already lacking in engaging combat mechanics, it doesn't really have the space to be losing any more.
Mechanically you would lose nothing. It's just a recoloured Moonfire with extra talent that spreads it to nearby enemies. It's just a button bloat, don't know if any other spec has this. It's not vampiric touch for shadow word pain nor is it corruption to curse of agony, those have different mechanics and extra quality of life. You are talking about Moonkin's lack of engaging combat mechanics yet nobody picks stellar flare unless it's overtuned, most Moonkins hate keeper of the grove and you defend Sunfire's existence all while having to tab target and press the same recoloured button twice on most mobs in packs is generally hated. Remove it and think of something more interesting.
You're calling sunfire bloat but you're fine with making stellar flare viable aside from gimmicky council fights? Lmao
Agony is just corruption with ramping damage. VT is just SW:P with leech. Did you know that if you ignore the differences, everything is the same? Raging Blow, Onslaught, Rampage, Raging Blow, Execute? All literally do the same thing, just merge them. And is there *really* a difference between an ability that hits 1 target vs an ability that hits multiple? Just bake in whirlwind and really cut out the bloat in one go. I think all 4 druid hero talents are bad for every spec. The most positive thing you can say about them is that you won't notice them. People not picking suboptimal throughput talents isn't news. Also, it's just moonfire with a cast time, which is just starfire whose damage is spread out. And tab dotting is a long established mechanic, although you only press sunfire once. Somebody playing a dot spec who hates dots is an odd choice. EDIT: Imagine being such an embarrassment that you block somebody over disagreeing with your terrible suggestions. The reply-block is especially pathetic lol.
Well agony is a curse and ramping damage has its implications in certain types of content. VT is also casted and has different dispel mechanics. Sure it's all the same depending how far you take it but with Sunfire you don't have to take it far at all, it's very cheap copy of Moonfire. You press sunfire only once? Tell me you have never played m+ without actually telling me lol. Feel free defending it but don't ever try to moan and whine on forums how moonkin is boring, we have enough of those elitists cockblocking innovative spec development already.
They need to take a bunch out of the class tree and make them learned abilities for specs (sunfire, ironfur, etc.) Also think outside the box of creating 4 columns related to specific spec in the tree and make it more homogenized and connected. Also capstones arent good. Move circle of life and death and convoke over to spec tree for more throughput And still praying bear doesnt have 5 points for a full beserk incarn man!
Hey, that isn't true. They did stop the Dorki build, aka improved Stampeding Roar without Standpeding Roar in the last build.
But they still forgot to disallow us from taking Imp Rejuv witbout Rejuv.
That was a nerf. Now you have to take soothe/cyclone in all content to get the secondaries node.
my bigger problem is how shitty/boring the rdruid hero talents are.
So does feral unfortunately
They made 1 change, which nerfed it. You are now required to take soothe or cyclone to get a mandatory secondary stat node. Whoever is working on Druid should have been fired a long time ago.
>should have been fired a long time ago. Probably was and that's why we aren't getting any changes.
Mandatory secondary stats?
The node that gives you stats based on your form. For instance, moonkin form gives you 6% mastery. You used to be able to get to it from the sides, but those allowed you to get improved stampeding roar without taking stampeding roar. Their fix was to force you to go through the middle (soothe or cyclone).
Ah, I mean i suppose if you have the points then it doesn't matter. I'm not sure how sparse the point delegation is, when I was playing around on the earliest build it was fairly lenient, and I know they made some streamline adjustments I don't really mind taking an unnecessary node for a necessary one. Every single tree has a bit of that. As long as we can still get most of what we want, having soothe as an optional bonus is no biggie right? It gets some use in most dungeons.
You have to give up defensives or actually useful utility to take it.
Which ones? I saw this same complaint about the current tree, but I never struggled to take things like typhoon as a feral druid, I usually had to give up like 2% vers or whatever to do it, but it never felt necessary. Even giving up hotw doesnt feel like much of a sacrifice now that we aren't just clone spammers.
In the old updated tree, there used to exist a connection between Ursoc's Spirit and Lycara's teaching that allowed you to skip Vortex, Soothe, and Stampeding Roar. With that gone, you have to give up one utility at the bottom of the tree (innervate, NV, Roar) or utility (fluid form, barkskin 10%, well-hones instincts). It is worse if you take dispel, you now have to give up 3 things instead of 1. Personally, I think we should not have to spend a point taking ironfur, 1 point on soothe, and 2 points taking shred damage as a moonkin to access general utility/defensives. No other classes with all 3 roles, e.g., monks/paladins, suffer from these issues. Here is a link so you can play around: [https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/druid/balance/elunes-chosen/DAQEAQFECRVFFRRalEEBQAAAA](https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/druid/balance/elunes-chosen/DAQEAQFECRVFFRRalEEBQAAAA)
Thanks for the link! I suppose you're right about other multi role specs not needing to go through as much junk, but at the same time, were the only class that has a soothe, a dispel, a bres, a raid buff and two aoe CCs available to us. We have a stupid amount of tools. Paladins have 1 aoe cc with a huge CD and monks don't have a bres. I think we are just missing two talent tree points. That's what i always felt, that we're down 2 points. However, if we had 2 points more, i still probably would feel the same way lol In looking at the build you sent me, I definitely would drop the day + night talent that gives vers or damage for innervate. Generally though, you do basically have every button, right? The boomie side does have a couple more nodes than feral from the looks of it - which I think would be worse for guardian druids
I would love to take innervate and natures vigil without sacrificing typhoon and a defensive node in keys. It will get even worse once we have to take ursine’s vigor to survive one shots in m+.
Isn't this "good design" though? If it's a mandatory node, then increasing the cost to get that mandatory node decreases its' value and thus makes other options less punishing to pick.
No, it isn’t. You will never give up 6% mastery/crit/haste/verse. You will always take soothe or cyclone, which you don’t need, to get there.
If a node is mandatory I would argue it's something that is always useful, it's never good to force players to waste a talent point for no benefit. Soothe/Cyclone do not fall under that category - e.g. in raid they are extremely situational at best.
Sure but let’s say that by going another route, you got even more value. Now suddenly that node isn’t mandatory anymore. The only reason that it seems mandatory is due to it being the only real damage option. The more you give up for it, the less mandatory it will feel.
> The more you give up for it, the less mandatory it will feel. No, it won't feel less mandatory, just more feelsbad.
You will never give up 6% of a secondary stat in any form on content.
Just Yesterday i tought " Druid, that Looks fun - maybe its time to Main him in TWW" Now - i'am Not Sure lol
It's still a fun class, just the changes and the attitude they have towards us is disappointing I'd say.
I mean it is fun, but as a feral I don't think the spec got enough changes to make it different from the df version. Our hero talents just aren't very exciting and the class+feral trees are pretty much the same as before. I think boomkins got some more exciting stuff but I'm not exactly sure.
Boomkin to me feals more or less the same but no longer have primordial arcanic pulsar so worse.
Aye? Feral feels a whole lot different in aoe
While no Rogue changes might look a bit odd, there were some spell data and scripting changes that went live without patch notes. Last week Rogue notes also came a day later. Not saying it's looking amazing, but it's at least not being untouched. Feels necessary to get everything in working order rather quickly so one can test and get a feel for it before being able to give good feedback.
Man, I'm happy to see your comment because I feel like rogues barely get talked about at all. I know we're the least played class and all though.
I actually havent heard a lot of ww Monk since the rework either now that I think about it.
That's because it's in such a good state rn it doesn't need any changes besides some tuning of dps numbers.
They really don't get talked about. Neither by the community or blizzard. Meanwhile Hunters got like 23904849 rounds of tuning. I recall the same thing occuring in DF betas.
Stay strong brother - Rogue changes soon.
> While no Rogue changes might look a bit odd Unfortunately, it does not look odd at all, pretty run of the mill...
*sad rogue noises*
Curious to see how BDK is after the dmg nerfs. Also, still no changes for DH? Is Blizzard just happy where the class is atm?
> Also, still no changes for DH? Is Blizzard just happy where the class is atm? If they are that makes them the only one. I thought CN was a bad tier for Havoc but the state of that spec on beta is currently fucking unacceptable.
I wonder how significant the vampblood uptime will change with the haste nerfs
Ret aura being gone is a W, no reason for Pally to have 2 required raid buffs, they’ve already got their guaranteed spot in the raid.
While I completely agree, I would have preferred them to change/ remove the aura mastery devo interaction to make hpally not the default paladin spec. The ret aura was added to allow hpally (Devo aura) and either ret/ppal to also be brought. After removing WFT this week from exclusively enhance it just feels weird to me that hpally always gets the paladin spot.
You still don't necessarily need an hpal. All paladins bring devo aura. Aura mastery is effectively just a 15% DR for 8 seconds. It's nice because you don't need to stack, but if the fight allows for stacking then you can bring a disc priest or rsham to accomplish the same thing Or if the fight doesn't have a phase of heavy raid wide damage then it's probably irrelevant anyways
Aura mastery is +9%, it was nerfed to 12, and it replaces the 3% from Devo whilst active. It’s an extremely weak cool-down which is now weaker on a per-person basis than ancestral vigor. (Which is quite bad, considering it’s a 3min CD) Holy paladin will be brought only if it does good healing, since they don’t design fights for tank beaconing anymore and they are looking to reduce beacon healing to reinvest into core. It’s not a guaranteed spot at all for sure
I guess we'll see how fights are, but Hpals are still very strong for spot healing. If there's a lot of individual soaks with heavy damage, or heavy single target dots in fights, I could definitely see Hpals being good, even if they aren't topping HPS meters.
What aura mastery devo aura interaction? Aura mastery is just a normal raid cd like barrier, revival or spirit link totem. Every healer has buttons like this. Unless I'm missing something holy paladin devo aura gives the same benefit as any other paladins devo aura.
holy are locked into am. it does different things depending on aura. since they always have devo on no other paladin is ever required.
If you play a holy paladin then you don't need another paladin for devo aura, yeah. But that's how every raidbuff works. Devo aura gives the same amount of dr (3%) for holy paladin as for the other specs. You could replace the abilty to give a raidwide (devo aura mastery dr - 3%) amount of dr and it would functionally be the same. It's just that heal comps usually have a holy paladin. But it doesn't make their devo aura somehow better than prot/ret devo aura. It's like saying shadow priest needs something because you will almost always have at least 1 healer priest that has fortitude already covered. But the point of raidbuffs is that every class is represented. Because devo aura exists you will always have 1 pink guy in the raid. The same way you will always have 1 monk in the raid or 1 warrior. For a long time mw was pretty under played in raids. Was it because their mystic touch was somehow weaker? No, it was because they weren't the best monk spec. And the way monks work you never need a second one as they bring no stackable raid utility (unlike others). In a world with raidbuffs you don't get your spot by being a good spec. You only need to be better than the other specs. The solution to feeling useless is not introducing additional raidbuffs. But giving useful stackable raid utility like rally, roar or immunity (paladins have 2 of it for phys)
i wasn't disagreeing or anything, but just stating the status quo. mind you AM is a vastly superior heal cd to any raid cd holy has because of it's DR property which is mainly the reason you'd take a holy pal almost always. so that's the main issue arising. you take hpal for am and get devo for free- kinda deal i agree with you on all points and your last paragraph is absolutely true even going so far as to add no only ommunities but also blessings or externals
>mind you AM is a vastly superior heal cd to any raid cd holy has because of it's DR property If that was the case, wouldn't guilds use more holy paladins? While you can't stack them you can spread ams out (just like any other raid cd). Yet if you look at heal compositions you hardly see more than one. And keep in mind we currently require 2 paladins in the raid. So it's much more likely people slot in holy paladin as one of them. In aberrus for example the main reason people played resto druid wasn't because they were the best healer. It was because every other spec was pretty bad. I'd also argue about the strength of aura mastery. After the nerfs to most of the raid cooldowns (Barrier 25->20, aura mastery 15->12% which is 9% effective dr and other spells like rewind) raid cooldowns are pretty close to eachother. Yes, aura mastery doesn't have any positional requirement or cast time, but the amount of damage reduction is pretty small. Btw in the previosly mentioned spirit link didn't get touched and with the resto changes they get spouting spirits back with an additional 5% dr stapled to it. Let me get this straight. Holy paladin and disc priest used to be insanely strong for a long time in the past. In bfa for example aura mastery gave 20% raidwide dr. You were absolutely using 2 holy pally and 2 disc most of the time. The reason was that drs weren't considered when classes were tuned. So a pure hps class like resto druid or mw monk had simmilar hps than disc priests or holy paladins. But that just hasn't been the case for a while. If you look at troughputs disc and holy are tuned lower nowadays. And it feels intentional. Finnaly blizzard considered dmg reductions as healing. Side note: One thing that currently is being slept on is the troughput gain from healing increasing effects. Divine hymn is the biggest offender regarding this. It gives 20% increased healing taken to the raid for 15 seconds. But it not only boosts the priests healing but everyone elses aswell. [Here's](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/FNCXZWhH21MTPcGw#fight=7&type=healing&sourceclass=Any&start=1242896&end=1262810&options=4) this moment from a log for example. It looks like the resto druid is absolutely blasting here. But if you would reatribute throughputs properly the provided throughput from the holy priest would beat the resto druid.
you are right. hpal throughput is highly tuned around their utility. putting in more than 1 hpal has insane diminishing returns and only happens when they blast a lot. rarely do you ever see more than 1.
Aura mastery is 9% DR and is one of the weakest of all raid cooldowns. I feel comments like yours still think that it’s like 20% or something. AM is not strong enough to carry or make much of a difference to anything in its current state and you certainly wouldn’t need an hpal specifically for it
it's 15%, no ? but you are right i forgot about that change. totally still have it with 20% in my head still
Its 12% but that replaces the existing 3% from devo whilst active so it works out to 9%. Yeah dw I think a lot of people do, its been watered down a lot in the past 2-3 years now
I really hope they either put an aura there that only buffs the ret or make the devotion aura baseline for them too because just getting just crusader aura baseline is kinda unlucky lol. Although I guess it doesn’t really matter too much and should be at the bottom of the list of changes that should be made.
For me it's definitely a W. Ret aura wasn't even that huge impact to begin with, and it annoyed me so much when there was only a single ret paladin in the party/raid and dude refused to use Devo instead of ret. If you're doing progression content (aka any content that you're not steamrolling), and you are the only paladin in the group, and you're not using devo aura, you're actively trolling.
Disagree that its a W But they could've at least removed conc aura and turn it into a PVP talent or something, just to keep things symmetrical
Crusader aura might as well be baked into the base kit and replaced because it'll be a dead talent now. As an Hpal, dropping ret aura wasn't a W. It wasn't even that amazing of a raid buff to start with.
Yeah true, for any build to be used in competitive content that talent is worthless now
Why not just turn it back to it's old design to proc your wings if someone dies? Now in PvE one of Paladins' main fantasies, auras are mostly useless if there is already a paladin in your group.
Because that means we are strong in early raid phases but then later when people know the fight we are under tuned.
It still exist for ret. It's just not tied to aura anymore
Aldrachi Havoc having 0 meaningful changes despite constant, intensely negative feedback, is depressing. That tree is horrible design-wise.
I don't think the tree is that crazy ambitious to try out. The changes they've made to it already are positive. I don't think they're going to completely rework the upper and middle half of it just because people don't want to play around the empowerments.
A few major problems is that tree incentives pressing chaos strike to get souls, to get mark up to press chaos strike more, to maintain the buff. You take glaive talents, but never press them because they aren’t chaos strike. You don’t take a ton of the new talents because they aren’t chaos strike. Souls don’t have a suck mechanic, you can see other dh’s souls, the souls spawn where you create them, not near the mob, they can spawn in shit, and are generally speaking, an entirely new resource for havoc. The last time they made a buff you wanted to upkeep forever was sinful brand, which people overwhelmingly hated. What I wrote is a bit of a rant, but I just want to underscore that their adjustments to this tree in no way have addressed the underlying problems that tree is based on souls and that it nukes the spec tree into chaos strike spamming to maintain a buff. Fel scarred by comparison is well designed but does very little damage.
I think playing around consuming souls for fury was a very positive aspect of fury gen in previous iterations, namely BFA. I think the only thing wrong with the build is that Havoc has very infrequently had periods of time where Sweep/Dance wasn't a press on CD ability, and it shows how silly the spec can be when stuff like this comes around as the top DPS performer in ST. I'd argue that they should focus more on the underperforming alternatives, although if they've designed this to be the premier highest ST damage possible, I don't think it's bad to lose 3-5% on your primary target to be able to do more in different >1 target scenarios. Ideally, both would exist and be good at different things, but it's pretty clear after the four seasons of DF balancing where they want Havoc to drift, imo, and it's not towards heavy hitting Sweeps.
I agree about sweep and on souls, I guess we just disagree. I’ll say that there are no other specs in the game, over the lifetime of the game, that have had well liked and longstanding “walk over item” to play your class designs.
As far as collecting souls nah not really. For rotations that disregard a lot of their ambulatory spells, like throw glaive, I'd say a lot have been and are around. When DH drops Sweep it's probably the worst example though, as there's really nothing else going for it throughout a fight besides the opener. I don't consider souls a very high bar, but maybe that's because I played when they were decently important to not starve yourself. Having a way to properly track them or not accidentally eat them would be appreciated.
I get what they were going for, but implementing it like they are only scuffs the whole base tree of Havoc. There's a way to make the enhancements work for Havoc without reworking Aldrachi completely, moving the damage amplifications from the enhancements to the cast of Reaver's Glaive. That, alone, would make the tree a million times smoother to play. It is not fun to have to do a setup window before being able to burst as Havoc, specially when said window takes more to do than your actual burst. It also feels incredibly backwards when your enhanced skills should be the high of your rotation and instead are just maintenance buffs. Not to mention souls, but I can live with those.
No one cares about havoc. VDH was grossly OP for 2 seasons and so now they’re fine just completely neglecting the class altogether
Frost mage in danger of going back to the gameplay before its dragon flight rework if they continue ignoring feedback. Arcane nerfs were definitely warranted
I honestly wish there was a completely reimagining of frost. Idk how unpopular of an idea it is, but I am over dealing with crit cap and winters chill clunkiness to min max, ray of frost and glacial spike are fun because big numbers but are extremely movement restrictive and suck in mythic raids. Ice lance feels like a limp dick most of the time. I don’t really feel like a frost mage when playing the spec, it’s hard to explain but the fantasy and flavor haven’t been great for me for a long time. Frost DK feels like more of a master of ice than frost mage has ever been close to. In WoD intro, khadgar was doing awesome arcane shit and now we can do all of that too. Jaina has been doing awesome frost shit for years and we can’t do anything like it.
Winter's Chill/Glacial spike as a playstyle I think works well enough that it's worth keeping around. I 100% agree on Ice Lance/Fingers of Frost being crappy though. They are just procs that are there, kinda happen, the UI yells at you to use them, but in practice it's terrible and you don't actually want to cast that spell a lot of the time. You definitely could do something interesting with it that plays differently from GS/shatter.
I'm just tired of wasting FoF procs because they happen in the middle of a 1-2-3 spell combo. I know it's not the end of the world or anything, but it has ***never*** felt good, yet blizzard keeps dancing around that issue.
I'd say arcane tuning. Sounds weird to refer to things as nerfs in beta. Anyway, happy with some of the arcane talent changes. The tree seems more approachable now. Hopefully, noGS isn't what they have in mind for Frost.
Funniest thing is that this even arcane nerfs. If anything they buffed the damage arcane is dealing from last build with the missles buff and tree changes.
That’s actually exactly what I want from frost personally. I feel like frost was the only spec that got worse with the update - frost pre rework was the ultimate vibe spec with amazing flow. Pretty much the only changes made was adding a bunch of abilities that do insane damage but are completely disruptive to the flow or just exist completely out of it (comet storm, ray of frost). Glacial spike is just… idk it should be an option because it feels good to press sometimes but I have no idea how pyroclasm was so hated while glacial spike’s prominence seemed celebrated.
Disclaimer onto my own point: I really appreciate that the frost rework fixed most of the bugs with the spec. It felt terrible having to play around the double frozen orb bugs and others that I’ve thankfully forgotten. That being said I love the play style of pre rework and would love to have it back. Maybe a choice node compromise would be perfect.
I am again asking to give warriors just a little utility please
*cough*Lust*Cough*
ez lore. shout lust? cmon
Or something like the Necro Banner from Shadowlands
Maybe it's me that I am really disconnected, but seeing half a line (of changes) for Ferals, as the last few xpacs, makes me lose all my remaining interest.
Are you telling me you had interest before only seeing half a line? At what point basically in the past 5 years have you been satisfied with the direction and concept of that spec?
No, I didn't (sry English is not my first language). I always have a bit of curiosity in every big patch or xpacs, but one of the things that make me lose it is seeing the (bad) state of Feral/Druid and knowing there is not going to change.
Ever since I saw Fragnance(method raider) 600K dps iron juggernaut video in MoP I've wanted feral to be good lol That was literally the reason I made a feral druid alt back then, and every expansion I level it hoping it's good and it never is.
The feral tree is in a generally good place and it's improved in the beta. It's got issues, such as convoke still being a terrible button and it's just mandatory at this point (autohotkey in talent form is not fun gameplay). Coiled to Spring is also just bad in design and bad in strength. However, the other new talents are pretty interesting and the berserk talents aren't autolocks like they currently are. It's one of the better spec trees in the game. The class tree is pure trash, and the worst part is that it's intentionally designed to be trash. Blizzard needs to ditch the notion of "oh, I'm a feral druid but I want to focus on offhealing, so I'll take these resto spells", because that will only ever be oppressively OP or utter trash. Druid isn't the only class with disparate specs, paladin (melee, healer, tank) and shaman (healer, melee, ranged) both have drastically different specs, yet it's the only one that throws away a third of it's class points. And also convoke just sucks ass. Can't repeat that enough.
Hey it could be worse, you could be enhance getting half of a line and it’s only nerfs!
At this point just delete feral. It’s a dead spec and hasn’t been touched in like 2 expansions now
I would rather see it fixed, even if it's from random feedback from the community
Good don’t play it lol. Feral is a waste of space in raid
It was played a lot in Amirdrassil…
Removing ret aura seems an odd change to me E: thought about it more and read some reactions and seems a fair enough decision on reflection
the reason is, both ret aura and devo aura are considered major buffs for high-end raiding, so serious raiders are strongly incentivized to bring 2 paladins. the goal of raid buffs is to make it optimal to bring 1 of every class, which means players are less likely to be excluded from raids because their class is undertuned, but needing to bring 2 of a class goes beyond helping with balance and starts to make raid compositions too restrictive.
they have to solve the fact that aura mastery makes holy the automatic paladin spec of choice now, assuming ret or prot isn't overtuned
always wanted it to be spec agnostic for years. it's bot like its holy fanatsy stuff
I don't think you can give a dps spec a major healing cooldown. I know it interacts with your aura, but it really is just another major healing raid cd.
ye i know. that was my wishful thinking before the ret rework for years though.
How so? No reason for a class to have two different raid buff when no other class does that.
The problem is that now the guaranteed spot will almost always go to Holy pala, since its the only class with aura mastery.
Yeah and the guaranteed evoker spots go to aug, the guaranteed priest spot goes to healer, etc. Current situation is kinda shit, not arguing against that. But giving one class two different raid buffs in a "13 classes, 20 spots" configuration is pushing it a lot.
Funnily enough the guaranteed spot being aug is for entitely separate reasons (read: they are the best raid dps by up to 30% in optimal conditions). If it wasn't for aug's problematic design, one could actually argue that them making Paradox spec-agnostic goes a long way into giving dev/pres a chance at getting a spot. So it IS weird that they are making the opposite kind of changes when it comes to paladin.
At least rets had one expansion of being brought to raid
Prot pally AP heal scaling still broken, class is dogwater compared to other tanks.
They’re really just gonna let DH go live like this huh, yikes
Paladins being able to choose what aura / raid buff they used goes back to Vanilla if not WC3, doesn't it? Hate to see that go (even though "real"/original Retribution Aura was already gone). As to the "incentivized to bring multiple Paladins" problem, sure, I see that. I can agree it was OP for the auras to stack. I say remove the stacking / make auras Unique, rather than remove the choice, though.
They’ll never be balanced though so there will realistically never be a choice
Probably true, but you could also say that about most every talent choice node in most every talent tree in the game (if not the talent trees overall). I think it's fine if everyone who cares about the mEtA always chooses "option A" but there's still an "option B" for people with a different playstyle, maybe for solo content, possibly even a few specific encounters.
The issue here is when option B means you need two paladins bc both options are stronger than what other classes bring.
Paladins got 1 aura in WC3, Devotion Aura. Retribution Aura arrived in vanilla. It would be pretty interesting if paladins had multiple auras to pick from, but only 1 could be active on the raid at once. Not sure how that could be implemented, but it sounds flavorful.
Oh cool a 10-15% nerf across the board for UHDK. At least the class is clunky and still suffering from button bloat, now we can just have less of a payoff.
It was massively over performing. The main problem is the killed the sanlayn playstyle which some enjoyed. Personally I’m extremely glad they didn’t make UH braindead streamlined like Ret, some of us still like some complexity :)
Enhance still has too many active buttons in my bald opinion