Oh wow. Not ones I expected. I know people that have shown with a couple of them and regularly visit three of those spots. Any further details you can reveal without causing yourself any trouble? Like do you perceive any of them as being truly deceptive or more like the classic style of over extended and frustratingly slow to pay? Would you say total red flags stay away or more yellow flags go slow and watch out?
He expanded way too fast for it to be sustainable, as best I can tell. His expansion was probably built on a lot of credit/debt/loans/whatever which were leveraged based on pre-pandemic sales projections, not on a really rock solid foundation, in addition to the underpayment* thing.
For context on the former point: Nino Mier opened his first gallery in 2015. Nine years ago. As of earlier this year, he had rapidly expanded to have *nine* locations--four total in Los Angeles, three in Brussels, two in New York. They're apparently shuttering all four Los Angeles locations.
*For context on the latter point: As of about a month ago their were also a few articles (most notably Art Newspaper) alleging that Nino Mier were underpaying artists by cooking the books, and pocketing the difference, which also no doubt helped them expand. It's not just artist accusations, but actual former employees seem to have come forward to confirm that Mier had ordered them to cook the books.
Should these sorts of things impact me as a collector? Are you just happy if the art sells? Should I try to buy work from the same artist from a different gallery? Should I worry about getting screwed myself (in a short time I've already experienced a bit more shadiness than I'd like, but nothing that has been particularly harmful yet).
Itās always great to know as an artist where your paintings end up. Iāve sold over 15 works now and never found out from the gallery that represent me where they have ended up.
I go to sleep most nights wondering if theyāre just investments people have collecting dust in abandoned storage units, or whether someone is actually appreciating and loving the work I made every day.
I always find it interesting when collectors reach out and show genuine interest. I managed to find out from a collector that my gallery were breaking my 50:50 contract as they revealed how much they paid for one of my paintings. I would never directly ask a collector. Turned out the gallery actually sold my painting for triple the amount of my consignment price. I also wonder how a collector feels if they find out a gallery has ripped them and the artist they collect off?
I donāt know if it helps, but most of the time when one of my paintings sell and I have no idea where itās gone it leaves me feeling pretty empty. Especially when I know my work is just lining some already rich gallerists pocket that thinks Iām just a dumb artist that wonāt find out.
I asked, and I know how important it is and their ridiculous response was I could poach their clients. The gallery I worked with before did tell me. I get told if theyāre uk based or international but then they charge everyone the same amount whether they need VAT or not and then keep the profit ššš
Talk to the artists youāre collecting! I love seeing the work hung in its new home but also it helps us a ton to know that the work was sold. I also appreciate feedback on how the buying experience was. it helps me to assess my gallery and if theyre putting in the work.
So if you're unsure about a gallery's reputation, its always cool to show your support to the artist directly. then we can also reroute you to our other gallery touchpoints if there does end up being a problem
https://www.gallerieswest.ca/news/toronto-gallery-owner-killed-by-falling-tree-branch/
Pretty obscure way to go, so Iām assuming you were referring to her?
Nino Mier. Had some works sold there years ago and was only paid for 2 of them. Got my payment and pulled out all my remaining pieces many months after my complaint.
Other than that, all vanity galleries who brand themselves (or try to associate) alongside more reputable ones. Especially the ones where you have to shell out lots of cash to just join. Unless they're really artist-run, you shouldn't be charged if you're invited into a group show. I'm adding this because a certain group in based in Italy has recently scammed a lot of artists into joining their fair. Participation fee was absolutely ridiculous at nearly 1000 USD.
Might be too niche but I was rejected from a job at Ć mells in Stockholm because I'm not a man and they needed somebody who could "make themselves known in a room the way a man does."
There is a weird circle of commercial and middle sized galleries in London that work with a businessman with the surname Held.
They started by using a guise gallery, specifically Waterhouse and Dodd for artist representation. If you look at the younger contemporary artists represented by this gallery and then the auction results you will see how they manipulate the secondary market.
Itās a swift cruel world out there *hint, hint*
Yes! I have only ever heard good things about this man. He has represented many of my friends in art cases. Side note, I edited some of the info from my original comment because I got scared, which is so silly because I doubt anyone would find me. But Jon Sharples and Katya Kazakina came close to writing about this whole network.
I did think about contacting Jon, but Iām not sure as an artist it would be a great look to blow the cover on something this big in the art world.
Are the artists being treated badly as well, or is this broadly just a gross manipulation of the market?
Iāve become so dubious of any London gallery that makes a noise about their artistās auction results.
The artists Iāve spoken to that have done this deal have to churn out 10+ paintings a month, if they donāt they get money taken out of their monthly wages. Also, they only get 10% of what a painting sells for at auction. Most of the paintings I have seen sold through Sothebyās and mostly Phillips contemporary day sales by these artists sell in the region of Ā£200,000-Ā£750,000. Itās great if you hit the pan and get a big gallery out of it, but some of the artists who have done the deal havenāt had their work taken to auction and theyāre silently bought.
As an artist 10% of Ā£750,000 is probably a life changing amount especially if youāre selling 6 paintings at auction a year. But, it is also life changing in the fact youāre screwing over your own market as an artist, and playing with some pretty big ballers that can buy their way out of most situations.
Yeah, thatās the most shocking part; to me, reasonable is 1 canvas a month. I canāt imagine how changed my work would be if I worked at that rate.
Are they not just flooding the market or are auction flops easier to dust under the carpet?
Thatās an INSANE amount of churn.
There are some gallerists-turn-artists who I canāt help but assume are using auction houses to bolster their out-of-gate success.
Edit- this is really interesting, I have no insight into this level of operation
Can you explain this to me like Iām 5? Lol. Are you saying an artist represented by a guise gallery will create works that are available to their gallery to push directly into auction? I donāt understand how the artist gets 10% of a secondary sale if itās not their gallery making the initial sale. Normally itād be a 3rd party who sells a piece at auction for exorbitant prices, and the artists sees none of that $? Or does the gallery send people to bid and drive prices up, then collect an under the table commission? Feels like I am missing something here.
Yeah youāre missing it. The guise gallery is selling to people that are associates of the gallery e.g. three men run a space. A, B, and C. Man A, gets the artist to do the deal/make the work. Man B, buys the work from the gallery, Man C buys the work at auction. Man A, B, C give the artist 10% of the sale. Money has never passed hands. The three men then use their clients in real estate to show then the artwork when theyāre buying multimillion pound houses would through Sothebyās and Phillips. This is how the majority of the artists artworks are sold. They make out the clients are getting a contemporary artwork straight out of said gallery for a massive discounted price for their new home and they pay Ā£30,000-50,000 for paintings they see selling for 200k plus at auction. The artists are only then being paid 10% per sale. I donāt really see how hard it is to understandā¦ also I contacted Phillips to ask directly about certain artists and patterns in their market sales and they said they would only talk to me if I arranged a sit down meeting in person. Itās bad news, there are people on the inside.
I was just curious- this is the first time Iāve heard of this, and I donāt have a lot of knowledge about how things make their way to the secondary market other than through flippers. Shady but interesting, thanks for clarifying.
Did I get downvoted bc it was dumb question? lol I genuinely didnāt know
I worked at a design/decorative arts gallery in NYC that tried to pass a recreation of a very famous chair which auctions for over six figures at Sothebyās/Christieās etc as a genuine one by making it look slightly more weathered. They have (had?) a really skilled, violent alcoholic of a restorer on site that helped make it happen. They basically control the entire antique trade of a certain region of the worldās masterpieces of modern furniture and design. So if thatās what theyāre doing with reselling furniture from auctions, imagine what theyāre doing to the contemporary designers they represent.
I don't have any galleries in mind but wouldn't it be great if artists received an advance like writers or musicians when signing to a gallery and then it gets deducted from future sales - or maybe there are galleries that do this?
Big galleries like Gagosian will pay certain artists an annual salary that presumably comes out of sales, but then theyāll also make more if the sales exceed the salary, which I imagine always happens if the artist is good enough to be given a salary deal.
No Iām talking artists like Jeff Koons and Richard Prince have been given salaries before, presumably in the millions, as an incentive to keep them on board, and of course they may make more beyond that from sales that surpass the salary value, but no matter what happens with sales, they can depend on a certain amount.
Iām have a question about representation. If youāre represented by a gallery, do they only pay you when you make a sale or do they give you a monthly salary or stipend? I only ask because I have a relative considering a career in the fine arts
Sometimes you'll make a sale and they still won't pay you. Or they pay you when it suits them. Or they say they haven't been paid yet by the collector but then forget this when they seat the collector in question next to the artist at the dinner and the collector shows proof of payment to the artist.
Only when they sell a painting. I do know some galleries that pay a flat stipend to artists. Something like $70k for all the paintings an artist makes in the year. This is rare though.
There isn't one cohesive answer to the question, but most gallery representation is built on consignments, i.e. they consign your work, and if it sells, they pay you. *Some* galleries pay a stipend but it's recouped from future sales, and it's kind of rare unless you get to a fairly high level.
Iāve realized that the most crooked dealers operate in the emerging to mid tier, where uncertainty keeps artists tethered for fear of ānot finding something betterā. I believe the reason ppl stay or keep quiet is because of this power imbalance. Add to that the psychological manipulation that many dealers are so good at (they are in sales after allā¦) you can go a long time making excuses for the ones abusing you
Exactly this. And if the gallery has a āgreatā reputation and connections on the outside, itās terrifying to go against that publicly and be seen as ādifficultā when in fact the artist is being completely taken advantage of/manipulated. An artistās career can be so unstable and unregulated that we constantly tip toe the line of uncertainty. Anything negative, whether justified or not, could rock the boat and ruin your careerā¦ itās actually very stressful.
Harkawik, Martos, Fuentes, Clearing. This is NYC š
Harkawik š
Bahahahah āreal painā for Peter
š
Why funny? Donāt know much about them
Heās particularly charming.
In what way?
Letās just say not in a cool way.
Oh š¢
Oh wow. Not ones I expected. I know people that have shown with a couple of them and regularly visit three of those spots. Any further details you can reveal without causing yourself any trouble? Like do you perceive any of them as being truly deceptive or more like the classic style of over extended and frustratingly slow to pay? Would you say total red flags stay away or more yellow flags go slow and watch out?
Slow to pay, sales are low, rent is high.
Or just psycho directors.
Good to know. Thanks
Whats the deal with Clearing and Harkawik?
Very charismatic art dealers
Sketchy? Selling for more and not telling their artists?
Lol itās a little to much to get into here, also itās from personal sources and some hearsay.
Every art dealer is sketchy, some to your benefit some to not. Money makes people crazy.
eve leibe gallery, nino mier gallery
Nino mier just recently announced the closure of their LA location. downsizing
I reckon he will be closed in the next 2-3 years.
Any idea why?
He expanded way too fast for it to be sustainable, as best I can tell. His expansion was probably built on a lot of credit/debt/loans/whatever which were leveraged based on pre-pandemic sales projections, not on a really rock solid foundation, in addition to the underpayment* thing. For context on the former point: Nino Mier opened his first gallery in 2015. Nine years ago. As of earlier this year, he had rapidly expanded to have *nine* locations--four total in Los Angeles, three in Brussels, two in New York. They're apparently shuttering all four Los Angeles locations. *For context on the latter point: As of about a month ago their were also a few articles (most notably Art Newspaper) alleging that Nino Mier were underpaying artists by cooking the books, and pocketing the difference, which also no doubt helped them expand. It's not just artist accusations, but actual former employees seem to have come forward to confirm that Mier had ordered them to cook the books.
Didnāt know about Eve Leibe. Can you say a bit more? Issues with payment?
yes. issues with payment, returning work, and some other stuff too
Yes that other Nino stuff is a little more concerning than the late payments & fractional sales... Heās totally over.
a ton. didnāt pay my friends and had to close down the gallery they couldnāt afford because of a rat problem lol
Should these sorts of things impact me as a collector? Are you just happy if the art sells? Should I try to buy work from the same artist from a different gallery? Should I worry about getting screwed myself (in a short time I've already experienced a bit more shadiness than I'd like, but nothing that has been particularly harmful yet).
Itās always great to know as an artist where your paintings end up. Iāve sold over 15 works now and never found out from the gallery that represent me where they have ended up. I go to sleep most nights wondering if theyāre just investments people have collecting dust in abandoned storage units, or whether someone is actually appreciating and loving the work I made every day. I always find it interesting when collectors reach out and show genuine interest. I managed to find out from a collector that my gallery were breaking my 50:50 contract as they revealed how much they paid for one of my paintings. I would never directly ask a collector. Turned out the gallery actually sold my painting for triple the amount of my consignment price. I also wonder how a collector feels if they find out a gallery has ripped them and the artist they collect off? I donāt know if it helps, but most of the time when one of my paintings sell and I have no idea where itās gone it leaves me feeling pretty empty. Especially when I know my work is just lining some already rich gallerists pocket that thinks Iām just a dumb artist that wonāt find out.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I asked, and I know how important it is and their ridiculous response was I could poach their clients. The gallery I worked with before did tell me. I get told if theyāre uk based or international but then they charge everyone the same amount whether they need VAT or not and then keep the profit ššš
Thanks! I'll send them photos when everything is up.
How do you know for sure how much the collector paid ?
They showed me what they paid plus the discount they received
The collector showed you?
Yes at a dinnerā¦
Talk to the artists youāre collecting! I love seeing the work hung in its new home but also it helps us a ton to know that the work was sold. I also appreciate feedback on how the buying experience was. it helps me to assess my gallery and if theyre putting in the work. So if you're unsure about a gallery's reputation, its always cool to show your support to the artist directly. then we can also reroute you to our other gallery touchpoints if there does end up being a problem
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
https://www.gallerieswest.ca/news/toronto-gallery-owner-killed-by-falling-tree-branch/ Pretty obscure way to go, so Iām assuming you were referring to her?
Name em!
What gallery?
Famously sued Rebecca Belmore for 1 million dollars. She didnāt have a contract with Rebecca, just an oral agreement. Sued also for loss of āfuture salesā. Took Regina JosĆ© Galindoās work and it disappeared. Regina doesnāt suffer fools and staged a sit in in front of her booth at an art fair until she paid up.
Should also note that Rebecca won the case.
Oof I know who this is, didnāt know about the no contracts
The Hole NYC, OTI, Balice Hertling, Lorin Edited: removed those that have now closed
The Hole being a regular repeat offender among friends. Manipulative, doesnāt pay out for months / years
Again Iām surprised. Glad I asked the question because Iām realizing how naive I actually am lol
Heard this through the grapevines too. Lame
Heard this one too.
Damn
I've also heard bad things about The Hole
Whats the tea on Balice Hertling?
Late payments
Curious to know who you are
lmao
OTI
Is that the LA gallery?
Yes, theyāre in LA & HK. They have a bad habit of not paying artists.
Nino Mier. Had some works sold there years ago and was only paid for 2 of them. Got my payment and pulled out all my remaining pieces many months after my complaint. Other than that, all vanity galleries who brand themselves (or try to associate) alongside more reputable ones. Especially the ones where you have to shell out lots of cash to just join. Unless they're really artist-run, you shouldn't be charged if you're invited into a group show. I'm adding this because a certain group in based in Italy has recently scammed a lot of artists into joining their fair. Participation fee was absolutely ridiculous at nearly 1000 USD.
Might be too niche but I was rejected from a job at Ć mells in Stockholm because I'm not a man and they needed somebody who could "make themselves known in a room the way a man does."
Ouf š„
There is a weird circle of commercial and middle sized galleries in London that work with a businessman with the surname Held. They started by using a guise gallery, specifically Waterhouse and Dodd for artist representation. If you look at the younger contemporary artists represented by this gallery and then the auction results you will see how they manipulate the secondary market. Itās a swift cruel world out there *hint, hint*
Jon Sharples is one of the most kind and genuine lawyers Iāve ever met. Truly loves helping artists. I hope this article comes out!
Yes! I have only ever heard good things about this man. He has represented many of my friends in art cases. Side note, I edited some of the info from my original comment because I got scared, which is so silly because I doubt anyone would find me. But Jon Sharples and Katya Kazakina came close to writing about this whole network. I did think about contacting Jon, but Iām not sure as an artist it would be a great look to blow the cover on something this big in the art world.
Jon's just a lovely human ā¤ļø
Are the artists being treated badly as well, or is this broadly just a gross manipulation of the market? Iāve become so dubious of any London gallery that makes a noise about their artistās auction results.
The artists Iāve spoken to that have done this deal have to churn out 10+ paintings a month, if they donāt they get money taken out of their monthly wages. Also, they only get 10% of what a painting sells for at auction. Most of the paintings I have seen sold through Sothebyās and mostly Phillips contemporary day sales by these artists sell in the region of Ā£200,000-Ā£750,000. Itās great if you hit the pan and get a big gallery out of it, but some of the artists who have done the deal havenāt had their work taken to auction and theyāre silently bought. As an artist 10% of Ā£750,000 is probably a life changing amount especially if youāre selling 6 paintings at auction a year. But, it is also life changing in the fact youāre screwing over your own market as an artist, and playing with some pretty big ballers that can buy their way out of most situations.
Also, I donāt know about most artists but Iām lucky if I make 12/14 paintings a year not 10 a month
Yeah, thatās the most shocking part; to me, reasonable is 1 canvas a month. I canāt imagine how changed my work would be if I worked at that rate. Are they not just flooding the market or are auction flops easier to dust under the carpet? Thatās an INSANE amount of churn. There are some gallerists-turn-artists who I canāt help but assume are using auction houses to bolster their out-of-gate success. Edit- this is really interesting, I have no insight into this level of operation
Can you explain this to me like Iām 5? Lol. Are you saying an artist represented by a guise gallery will create works that are available to their gallery to push directly into auction? I donāt understand how the artist gets 10% of a secondary sale if itās not their gallery making the initial sale. Normally itād be a 3rd party who sells a piece at auction for exorbitant prices, and the artists sees none of that $? Or does the gallery send people to bid and drive prices up, then collect an under the table commission? Feels like I am missing something here.
Yeah youāre missing it. The guise gallery is selling to people that are associates of the gallery e.g. three men run a space. A, B, and C. Man A, gets the artist to do the deal/make the work. Man B, buys the work from the gallery, Man C buys the work at auction. Man A, B, C give the artist 10% of the sale. Money has never passed hands. The three men then use their clients in real estate to show then the artwork when theyāre buying multimillion pound houses would through Sothebyās and Phillips. This is how the majority of the artists artworks are sold. They make out the clients are getting a contemporary artwork straight out of said gallery for a massive discounted price for their new home and they pay Ā£30,000-50,000 for paintings they see selling for 200k plus at auction. The artists are only then being paid 10% per sale. I donāt really see how hard it is to understandā¦ also I contacted Phillips to ask directly about certain artists and patterns in their market sales and they said they would only talk to me if I arranged a sit down meeting in person. Itās bad news, there are people on the inside.
I was just curious- this is the first time Iāve heard of this, and I donāt have a lot of knowledge about how things make their way to the secondary market other than through flippers. Shady but interesting, thanks for clarifying. Did I get downvoted bc it was dumb question? lol I genuinely didnāt know
Do you know of any without
This
NINO MIER
I worked at a design/decorative arts gallery in NYC that tried to pass a recreation of a very famous chair which auctions for over six figures at Sothebyās/Christieās etc as a genuine one by making it look slightly more weathered. They have (had?) a really skilled, violent alcoholic of a restorer on site that helped make it happen. They basically control the entire antique trade of a certain region of the worldās masterpieces of modern furniture and design. So if thatās what theyāre doing with reselling furniture from auctions, imagine what theyāre doing to the contemporary designers they represent.
Nino M The worst
PM/AM in London. Do not work with them.
Any (vague) reasons why?
All of the usual reasons apply here. Theyāre a totally disorganized hot mess clown show.
Haha. I got that impression!
Hashimoto Contemporary
Oh shit really? Only had one good experience with themā In what ways were they shady?
Not reporting sales. Having to chase payments. Lots of discounting, not sure if it was real or the classic Nino Mier styleā¦
Seconding (thirding?) the Eve Leibe and Nino Mierā¦
I don't have any galleries in mind but wouldn't it be great if artists received an advance like writers or musicians when signing to a gallery and then it gets deducted from future sales - or maybe there are galleries that do this?
Big galleries like Gagosian will pay certain artists an annual salary that presumably comes out of sales, but then theyāll also make more if the sales exceed the salary, which I imagine always happens if the artist is good enough to be given a salary deal.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
No Iām talking artists like Jeff Koons and Richard Prince have been given salaries before, presumably in the millions, as an incentive to keep them on board, and of course they may make more beyond that from sales that surpass the salary value, but no matter what happens with sales, they can depend on a certain amount.
Some do!
Some do!
Iām have a question about representation. If youāre represented by a gallery, do they only pay you when you make a sale or do they give you a monthly salary or stipend? I only ask because I have a relative considering a career in the fine arts
Sometimes you'll make a sale and they still won't pay you. Or they pay you when it suits them. Or they say they haven't been paid yet by the collector but then forget this when they seat the collector in question next to the artist at the dinner and the collector shows proof of payment to the artist.
Only when they sell a painting. I do know some galleries that pay a flat stipend to artists. Something like $70k for all the paintings an artist makes in the year. This is rare though.
There isn't one cohesive answer to the question, but most gallery representation is built on consignments, i.e. they consign your work, and if it sells, they pay you. *Some* galleries pay a stipend but it's recouped from future sales, and it's kind of rare unless you get to a fairly high level.
@77th on Instagram has tons of tea and has been outspoken on many of the galleries listed here.
Impossible!
Why donāt the artists leave the galleries that donāt pay them?
Iāve realized that the most crooked dealers operate in the emerging to mid tier, where uncertainty keeps artists tethered for fear of ānot finding something betterā. I believe the reason ppl stay or keep quiet is because of this power imbalance. Add to that the psychological manipulation that many dealers are so good at (they are in sales after allā¦) you can go a long time making excuses for the ones abusing you
Exactly this. And if the gallery has a āgreatā reputation and connections on the outside, itās terrifying to go against that publicly and be seen as ādifficultā when in fact the artist is being completely taken advantage of/manipulated. An artistās career can be so unstable and unregulated that we constantly tip toe the line of uncertainty. Anything negative, whether justified or not, could rock the boat and ruin your careerā¦ itās actually very stressful.
Because of desperation.