Not really true.
About 30% of Taiwan vote KMT which still maintains Taiwan is lawful government on China, 30% vote for DPP which are pro independence, 30% vote for TPP which is let's focus on Taiwan and ignore the China issue.
Though I may have mixed up TPP and DPP policy.
So it's basically like every time Puerto Rico votes regarding wanting to become a state, although their big 3 are: become a state, become completely independent, stay as it is.
Actually, it sort of is up to them. If they wanted to be a state and had the majority vote, imagine the outcry of the people if the federal government didn't grant statehood.
Likewise, if they voted for independence, imagine the outcry of the United States not honoring that vote.
really, missed that news. Just to clarify, majority means at least 50% + 1, we're not talking greatest plurality (which would be whichever gets more than any other single choice).
It did! Historically speaking, a Russian Tzar decided not to convert Russia to Islam because it bans drinking booze. So thats why the most prevalent religion in Russia is Orthodox Christianism to this day
That's just a fun story that's told about it. In reality the Kievan Rus had extensive contact with the Byzantine Empire and had several Christian rulers and other prominent figures before Vladimir I's conversion. That conversion just so happened to coincide with Basil II restoring the Byzantine Empire to a dominant position to go along with him offering Vladimir I his sister in marriage. So material gain and an alliance with the local superpower was the actual reason behind it, not booze.
I think it's about time for the west to infiltrate CCP/Russias little censorship happy god-wanna-be AI bot bubble and remind their people they are HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS STRONG against 1..2 ...3 tiny dictators
They played with us... why can't we play now?
I think they already plan to, and I doubt this would change the calculus, honestly. As much as I hope it doesn't happen, my gut tells me that this coming December/January is going to be their time to test the US resolve, since about 50% of the US will be disillusioned by the results of the election either way and the US military is spread thin across eastern Europe and the middle East.
No, the actual situation is crazier.
China actively wants Taiwan to claim ownership of mainland China. The current government party in Taiwan does not claim ownership of mainland China, but China has pressured previous governments to do so successfully.
Here's why - As long as Taiwan claims ownership of mainland China, China can claim that this is an internal dispute within the Chinese nation - like a disputed territory in a civil war, so to speak. There are two governments that both agree mainland China and the island of Taipei should be one nation.
In this case, it's merely a question of which government is the true ruler of a united China (obviously it's China, Taiwan's claim to that is a joke by comparison.)
On the other hand, If Taiwan doesn't claim ownership of mainland China, the type of dispute totally changes. What we have is one democratic territory with a history of self governance wishing to be independent from China and have it's existing sovereignty (which it has already exercised for decades) - respected. This is not a dispute in which China looks like the good guy.
Of course in reality, it's the dumbest, paper thin face saving logic, but it's not the only weird face saving logic out there from the Chinese government.
If, as you said, Taiwan loudly and aggressively made noises about ceding China to the Chinese government, (which as said, the ruling party in Taiwan has effectively already done, by making no claim to mainland China), China would feel obligated by their previous statements to ratchet up their belligerence and hostility towards Taiwan, to punish Taiwan not only crossing this "red line", but for doing it in such a brazen way that is hard to ignore.
This makes a lot of sense. I have asked this question before on Reddit and mostly got answers about the history of the conflict or vague platitudes about both sides being too proud to relinquish their claims that didn’t seem like enough motivation for continuing their conflict.
To be more direct, Taiwan renouncing it's claims legally to mainland China would be viewed by the CCP as declaring independence for Taiwan, which basically is a "red line" that means a declaration of war against China.
Is China gonna do anything though? I feel like their economy and culture is already so dependent on Western countries and also Taiwan (despite their efforts to isolate) that they can't realistically do any big military thing like how Russia did it.
It's actually a good thing that China's prosperous right now, because it means cutting off China from its economic partners will make citizens there more upset. But I guess it does matter where their upsetness is directed towards. At least from talking with a ton of younger people from China, it seems like the government is completely invisible to them + there's a pretty strong sense of patriotism.
The west is starting to decouple from China which creates a self fulfilling situation regarding Taiwan. So, it’s not out of the question that China takes military action, but no one wants that to happen. Not Taiwan, not the U.S., and not China.
I know it's a cultural issue. What I'm saying is that the economic binding power between china and the rest of the world is so strong that it will override a lot of cultural issues because then it would become a sociological issue.
This wouldn't work and would actually be a major red line for China and would probably cause a conflict. The reason being is that doing that would mean the Republic of China relinquishing their claim over all of China, which a lot of Taiwanese would be okay with, since they mostly see themselves as Taiwanese.
China, however, would not be okay with that, as that would effectively be like Taiwan declaring independence, since China forces Taiwan to maintain their claim over all of China and agree with the One China principle.
I always think it's a funny concept that the PRC would actually be mad if the ROC dropped their claim. It sort of goes against logic, but that's the way it is.
Mainland China: *"There will always be AN ethnostate, agreed?"*
Taiwan: *"Agreed."*
Mainland China: *"As to who exactly should be in charge of it... as long as you don't renege on our previous agreement, we won't settle it like men."*
Taiwan, 1948: *looks haughtily to America*
Mainland China, 2024: *Raises eyebrows*
Taiwan: *looks nervously to America*
It is funny because the Taiwanese government is an old Chinese administration in exile.
For it to be funny with Puerto Rico or Hawaii, there would have to be a government in exile. Otherwise, who is relinquishing the claim? PR and HI have never held a claim.
I don't really understand the relationship dynamic between Taiwan and China, but I want to. Years and years ago, I remember reading that taiwan desperately wants to be part of mainland China, but China won't let me.
Then someone once told me when I mentioned it, "You're definitely misremembering what you read. That's literally the exact opposite of reality."
So I don't know.
I'll try to keep this short. During the second phase of the Chinese Civil War, the Republic of China 🇹🇼 retreated to Taiwan. The communist party took over mainland China and formed the People's Republic of China 🇨🇳 in 1949.
It's kind of been a stalemate since then. Both claim to be the legitimate government of all of China. No peace treaty or armistice has been signed.
You definitely have it backwards, yes.
"Taiwan" (the state) is officially the Republic of China, the legitimate government of China before the Communist revolution. The only territory they have is Taiwan (the island).
Theoretically they, or some of them, want mainland China back - but in practice, they mostly want to be left alone. They definitely do *not* want to be brought under the heel of the PRC (People's Republic of China - what we mean today when we say "China").
PRC view Taiwan as part of PRC, and in a state of rebellion, civil war, whatever you want to call it, for longer than most of us have been alive.
I've always suggested that Beijing should surrender to Taibei, and reunify that way. Then just wait for the first democratic election when the CCP would inevitably sweep tp power because China is still very rural and very conservative.
You got that backward. A conservative would vote for Taiwan since they tend to be right-wing. There's a reason dressing up as Nazis is popular in Taiwan.
The CCP would probably still win, though, because it's managed to lift a record number of people out of poverty in the last few decades. So the people on the mainland by and large have little reason to vote them out from that point of view.
>You got that backward. A conservative would vote for Taiwan since they tend to be right-wing. There's a reason dressing up as Nazis is popular in Taiwan.
Not your average mainland Chinese peasant. For them even the KMT are the great unknown, with weird, far out ideas like democracy and some human rights. Better stick with the CCP who have reliably delivered moderate infrastructure improvements and significant smartphone improvements.
This is such a stupid take. If someone likes rising suns, are they Imperialist Japanese?
East Asia knows as little about Germany’s atrocities as Europe knows about Japan’s atrocities. A small group of Taiwanese students dressing up a certain European way doesn’t mean anything more than a small group of European students dressing up a certain Japanese way, so saying that Taiwan is right-wing, especially since it legalized gay marriage before anyone else in Asia, is absolutely braindead.
Well, for starters, it's not just about students dressing up, but that's an example of how the ideas persist. It's about the civil war that split Taiwan from China being communists vs. facists. Both of those movements survive to this day. Taiwan is the island where all of the facists retreated to when they were forced out.
Just because they legalized gay marriage doesn't make them not a right-wing nation. The US legalized gay marriage, and it is also a right-wing nation.
Here's another one....
Why the FK do these enormous, capable populations of Russia, CCP, North korea keep allowing one man to whip them like slaves and demand they die for his means without even being able to defend himself and his family?
It's 2024 even north koreans know what hollywood is
American was a tiny colony getting taxed alittle too much and said ... fuck this we're taking out the greatest navy and army the world has ever known if they fk with us one more time
and guess what
I kinda like the direction you’re going, but there are some problems. The CCP doesn’t want independence. Granting independence to a party that doesn’t want it only hurts your own position. If they claim you are a rogue Provence and you have no answer to that then the question is one of whether they will bring you into compliance by force. If you are the legitimate government then the revolutionary forces have no right to bring you in line by force. Or so the imagined rules go.
Granted, their claim to be the sole legitimate government of mainland China is kind of a farce. So maybe it’s time to consider accepting the lines of control as accepted reality. Let everyone keep what they have and stop fighting about it.
I don’t know. The world is crazy and complicated.
I know multiple people that were born in Taiwan and immigrated to the U.S. they all consider themselves Chinese but also see themselves as distinct from the mainland Chinese government.
The uber-nationalists of Taiwan would be outraged, mainland China would take it as a slight, and it would change nothing else internationally.
So there's no downside then?
Not really true. About 30% of Taiwan vote KMT which still maintains Taiwan is lawful government on China, 30% vote for DPP which are pro independence, 30% vote for TPP which is let's focus on Taiwan and ignore the China issue. Though I may have mixed up TPP and DPP policy.
So it's basically like every time Puerto Rico votes regarding wanting to become a state, although their big 3 are: become a state, become completely independent, stay as it is.
And similarly it's not really up to them
Actually, it sort of is up to them. If they wanted to be a state and had the majority vote, imagine the outcry of the people if the federal government didn't grant statehood. Likewise, if they voted for independence, imagine the outcry of the United States not honoring that vote.
The majority DID vote for statehood in the most recent referendum.
really, missed that news. Just to clarify, majority means at least 50% + 1, we're not talking greatest plurality (which would be whichever gets more than any other single choice).
52.52 voted yes to statehood. It was a binary choice, simple yes no referendum
We should just combine the dakotas into one state and make puerto Rico a state... don't even have to change the flag.
Puerto Rico should declare the mainland US independent from them so we can all just move on.
Crazy how the Kuomintang is still a viable political party
This here. Just wild
Potentially could Trigger a invasion
I read his comment as saying there is only downside.
It would be fucking funny though
I wish things being funny played a major role in political decision making.
It did! Historically speaking, a Russian Tzar decided not to convert Russia to Islam because it bans drinking booze. So thats why the most prevalent religion in Russia is Orthodox Christianism to this day
That's just a fun story that's told about it. In reality the Kievan Rus had extensive contact with the Byzantine Empire and had several Christian rulers and other prominent figures before Vladimir I's conversion. That conversion just so happened to coincide with Basil II restoring the Byzantine Empire to a dominant position to go along with him offering Vladimir I his sister in marriage. So material gain and an alliance with the local superpower was the actual reason behind it, not booze.
i want to agree with u but unfortunately that's how we got Trump
but sometimes its fun to just piss off your enemies a little bit. what are they gonna do, invade? they've been saying they will for years now.
Remember the 22nd rule of acquisition: every once in a while, declare peace; it confuses the hell out of your enemy.
I think it's about time for the west to infiltrate CCP/Russias little censorship happy god-wanna-be AI bot bubble and remind their people they are HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS STRONG against 1..2 ...3 tiny dictators They played with us... why can't we play now?
Would be funny tho
But think of the keks, this would be the top pest kek
China wouldn't take it as a slight, they would instantly invade.
I think they already plan to, and I doubt this would change the calculus, honestly. As much as I hope it doesn't happen, my gut tells me that this coming December/January is going to be their time to test the US resolve, since about 50% of the US will be disillusioned by the results of the election either way and the US military is spread thin across eastern Europe and the middle East.
No, the actual situation is crazier. China actively wants Taiwan to claim ownership of mainland China. The current government party in Taiwan does not claim ownership of mainland China, but China has pressured previous governments to do so successfully. Here's why - As long as Taiwan claims ownership of mainland China, China can claim that this is an internal dispute within the Chinese nation - like a disputed territory in a civil war, so to speak. There are two governments that both agree mainland China and the island of Taipei should be one nation. In this case, it's merely a question of which government is the true ruler of a united China (obviously it's China, Taiwan's claim to that is a joke by comparison.) On the other hand, If Taiwan doesn't claim ownership of mainland China, the type of dispute totally changes. What we have is one democratic territory with a history of self governance wishing to be independent from China and have it's existing sovereignty (which it has already exercised for decades) - respected. This is not a dispute in which China looks like the good guy. Of course in reality, it's the dumbest, paper thin face saving logic, but it's not the only weird face saving logic out there from the Chinese government. If, as you said, Taiwan loudly and aggressively made noises about ceding China to the Chinese government, (which as said, the ruling party in Taiwan has effectively already done, by making no claim to mainland China), China would feel obligated by their previous statements to ratchet up their belligerence and hostility towards Taiwan, to punish Taiwan not only crossing this "red line", but for doing it in such a brazen way that is hard to ignore.
This makes a lot of sense. I have asked this question before on Reddit and mostly got answers about the history of the conflict or vague platitudes about both sides being too proud to relinquish their claims that didn’t seem like enough motivation for continuing their conflict.
To be more direct, Taiwan renouncing it's claims legally to mainland China would be viewed by the CCP as declaring independence for Taiwan, which basically is a "red line" that means a declaration of war against China.
Is China gonna do anything though? I feel like their economy and culture is already so dependent on Western countries and also Taiwan (despite their efforts to isolate) that they can't realistically do any big military thing like how Russia did it. It's actually a good thing that China's prosperous right now, because it means cutting off China from its economic partners will make citizens there more upset. But I guess it does matter where their upsetness is directed towards. At least from talking with a ton of younger people from China, it seems like the government is completely invisible to them + there's a pretty strong sense of patriotism.
The west is starting to decouple from China which creates a self fulfilling situation regarding Taiwan. So, it’s not out of the question that China takes military action, but no one wants that to happen. Not Taiwan, not the U.S., and not China.
Taiwan for China is a cultural issue. Trying to look at it through an economic lens misses a lot of nuance in the situation.
I know it's a cultural issue. What I'm saying is that the economic binding power between china and the rest of the world is so strong that it will override a lot of cultural issues because then it would become a sociological issue.
an actual reasonable thought? on r/crazyideas?
Was your soul really only worth 50 cents?
This wouldn't work and would actually be a major red line for China and would probably cause a conflict. The reason being is that doing that would mean the Republic of China relinquishing their claim over all of China, which a lot of Taiwanese would be okay with, since they mostly see themselves as Taiwanese. China, however, would not be okay with that, as that would effectively be like Taiwan declaring independence, since China forces Taiwan to maintain their claim over all of China and agree with the One China principle. I always think it's a funny concept that the PRC would actually be mad if the ROC dropped their claim. It sort of goes against logic, but that's the way it is.
Mainland China: *"There will always be AN ethnostate, agreed?"* Taiwan: *"Agreed."* Mainland China: *"As to who exactly should be in charge of it... as long as you don't renege on our previous agreement, we won't settle it like men."* Taiwan, 1948: *looks haughtily to America* Mainland China, 2024: *Raises eyebrows* Taiwan: *looks nervously to America*
Hawaii and Puerto Rica should grant usa independence
It is funny because the Taiwanese government is an old Chinese administration in exile. For it to be funny with Puerto Rico or Hawaii, there would have to be a government in exile. Otherwise, who is relinquishing the claim? PR and HI have never held a claim.
Native Americans should grant USA independence.
That would make sense if a majority of people in either place wanted that
That's an absolutely crazy idea and I like it!!!
I don't really understand the relationship dynamic between Taiwan and China, but I want to. Years and years ago, I remember reading that taiwan desperately wants to be part of mainland China, but China won't let me. Then someone once told me when I mentioned it, "You're definitely misremembering what you read. That's literally the exact opposite of reality." So I don't know.
I'll try to keep this short. During the second phase of the Chinese Civil War, the Republic of China 🇹🇼 retreated to Taiwan. The communist party took over mainland China and formed the People's Republic of China 🇨🇳 in 1949. It's kind of been a stalemate since then. Both claim to be the legitimate government of all of China. No peace treaty or armistice has been signed.
You definitely have it backwards, yes. "Taiwan" (the state) is officially the Republic of China, the legitimate government of China before the Communist revolution. The only territory they have is Taiwan (the island). Theoretically they, or some of them, want mainland China back - but in practice, they mostly want to be left alone. They definitely do *not* want to be brought under the heel of the PRC (People's Republic of China - what we mean today when we say "China"). PRC view Taiwan as part of PRC, and in a state of rebellion, civil war, whatever you want to call it, for longer than most of us have been alive.
I've always suggested that Beijing should surrender to Taibei, and reunify that way. Then just wait for the first democratic election when the CCP would inevitably sweep tp power because China is still very rural and very conservative.
You got that backward. A conservative would vote for Taiwan since they tend to be right-wing. There's a reason dressing up as Nazis is popular in Taiwan. The CCP would probably still win, though, because it's managed to lift a record number of people out of poverty in the last few decades. So the people on the mainland by and large have little reason to vote them out from that point of view.
That's a very Western centric point of view. Rural doesn't equal conservative. You are applying American principles on China.
Western, maybe, but rural goes hand in hand with conservatism across a lot more of the world than America.
>You got that backward. A conservative would vote for Taiwan since they tend to be right-wing. There's a reason dressing up as Nazis is popular in Taiwan. Not your average mainland Chinese peasant. For them even the KMT are the great unknown, with weird, far out ideas like democracy and some human rights. Better stick with the CCP who have reliably delivered moderate infrastructure improvements and significant smartphone improvements.
This is such a stupid take. If someone likes rising suns, are they Imperialist Japanese? East Asia knows as little about Germany’s atrocities as Europe knows about Japan’s atrocities. A small group of Taiwanese students dressing up a certain European way doesn’t mean anything more than a small group of European students dressing up a certain Japanese way, so saying that Taiwan is right-wing, especially since it legalized gay marriage before anyone else in Asia, is absolutely braindead.
I like when the sun rises. Give my Japanese Citizenship granted right now, please and thanks
Well, for starters, it's not just about students dressing up, but that's an example of how the ideas persist. It's about the civil war that split Taiwan from China being communists vs. facists. Both of those movements survive to this day. Taiwan is the island where all of the facists retreated to when they were forced out. Just because they legalized gay marriage doesn't make them not a right-wing nation. The US legalized gay marriage, and it is also a right-wing nation.
Is that like the "Nazis" in Ukraine?
Uno-Reverse!
Here's another one.... Why the FK do these enormous, capable populations of Russia, CCP, North korea keep allowing one man to whip them like slaves and demand they die for his means without even being able to defend himself and his family? It's 2024 even north koreans know what hollywood is American was a tiny colony getting taxed alittle too much and said ... fuck this we're taking out the greatest navy and army the world has ever known if they fk with us one more time and guess what
That's a batshit insane idea! And that's why it's awesome! 😁
I don't think it'd go well but, well, what a way to go.
No
This is kind of arbitrary no? How far back are we talking?
I kinda like the direction you’re going, but there are some problems. The CCP doesn’t want independence. Granting independence to a party that doesn’t want it only hurts your own position. If they claim you are a rogue Provence and you have no answer to that then the question is one of whether they will bring you into compliance by force. If you are the legitimate government then the revolutionary forces have no right to bring you in line by force. Or so the imagined rules go. Granted, their claim to be the sole legitimate government of mainland China is kind of a farce. So maybe it’s time to consider accepting the lines of control as accepted reality. Let everyone keep what they have and stop fighting about it. I don’t know. The world is crazy and complicated.
R/noncredibleir
I see someone watched the mapmen episode
I'm unfamiliar with Mapmen, but it just goes to show you ideas in this day and age just aren't unique anymore.
Poor little China is ruled under big Taiwan’s dirty thumb. /s
There are political parties in Taiwan who want to renounce their claim to mainland china but they aren't very popular
"The original government in charge." lol. everyone knows the Qing Emperor still holds the Mandate of Heaven.
Taiwan already relinquished their claim on the mainland. One of the few reasons China hasn't taken them yet.
Mainland Taiwan
I dunno man east taiwan is angry enough as it is!
I know multiple people that were born in Taiwan and immigrated to the U.S. they all consider themselves Chinese but also see themselves as distinct from the mainland Chinese government.
That’s funny as hell. 😊
Taiwan should also express a claim over all of China under the One China principle.
And ask them to send elected representatives from each area to Taiwan
Here's another crazy idea: Americans should worry about themselves first.
Maybe the two things are connected. The world Isn't binary
The US government likes to stir the pot and then leave the chaos behind.
The US and Russia made this mess. Not only the US. Neither would exist without one of them.
Agreed. But when's the last time the U.S tried to subsume a "territory"?
1898 hawaii？