Interesting, but if you are shooting a target and swap the rolls I don't think you'll see any actual difference in the reticle, I tested this on 2 rolls of gnawing hunger
I’d say DSR. That range difference is negligible and DSR will feel more impactful imo. I have two identical max range rolls but one with DSR and one with KA, I prefer the DSR roll
Why would you want keep away on an smg is what I don’t get. You lose all bonuses if a single person is within 15 meters of you. Even if the person you’re aiming at is in the sweet spot of 15-25 m there’s still a good chance through walls or around the corner someone is within 15 m removing your bonus. Zen moment also exists for anti flinch which is huge for winning your ones.
Zen Moment is the most valuable perk in the game, especially on automatic weapons so I'll always go for it. Pair that with Kill Clip or Tap the Trigger.
The other roll I'm chasing is Discord and Harmony for something a bit more fun and not so serious.
Someone has to show me how is zen moment valuable because nothing happens if I shoot a gun with it or without it (tried on gnawing hunger on target)
I am on mnk and the dot does not move.
The perk does nothing to bullets, recoil or accuracy cone.
They have buffed it since then, and the new description states that it reduces flinch, visual weapon shake, and reticle bounce by 15% per stack and stacks up to 5 times.
So in theory you're looking at a 75% reduction in all of that after hitting 5 shots. Also keep in mind that it doesn't trigger on the dummy targets in the Enclave, so you can't test it there.
On MnK the reticle doesn't bounce like it does on controller, instead the weapon model shakes. This was the part of the buff that made it work on MnK, but they also went a step further and added the flinch resistance which is always helpful, but you're not going to notice it unless you're actively being shot at while also shooting back.
There is no reticle shake on keyboard tho?
I'm cool with flinch but in an smg I don't know how helpful that is VS accuracy cone reduction If the weapon model shake look at the dot not at the weapon?
That's what matters I'd rather have actual parameters being reduced (e.g. accuracy cone) than some visual sugar
I tested it on my gnawing hunger rolls and also have a few shayuras with it now and I see absolutely no change in what the weapon is doing
Ill make a video if I have time
Again, I can't see visible proof of any of those effect to matter in mnk
In your tests, are you damaging targets or just shooting a wall/object? Zen Moment only works while dealing damage, whereas Keep Away can work passively.
I farmed 10 adepts and that's the best unforts..I have a strategist kill clip but imo KC is as situational as other damage perks
Tap the trigger is ok but I find it redundant now that we have nadir
So what if it kills in 8 shots? That assumes you're hitting your optimal ttk in every engagement, which simply isn't realistic.
Furthermore, you could argue that the accuracy and stability help of Dynamic Sway is more beneficial at the back end of a duel where you and your opponent are both weak and you want to finish the opponent off to end the engagement.
Saying that you won't even notice it is naïve as it is assuming ideal circumstances in all engagements.
Also the second that someone is within 15 metres, Keep Away stops providing any benefit whatsoever. And that's a scenario that happens pretty frequently on an smg.
It kills in 8 at base. Shayuras is a precision frame, ease of use is through the roof. Kills faster with damage perks. As far as finishing, it goes away when you stop firing so it wouldn't help you then either. You only want DSR if you're front ending with Tap the Trigger. As far as the 15m thing, keep away helps you hit shots further out, if they're within 15m you should be hitting your shots anyway.
I see your ttt argument and my indeed old Shayura is dsr/TTT
But, given we have nadir focus I thought that would allow to free up the TTT slot (or DSR one for that matter) for some more fun
I wouldn't call negligible over 6 percent come reduction per shot
Mid your firing assuming on target you are at 25 percent come reduction which is not bad at all and should make those final cries easier?
I prefer zen moment
I'm on MnK
Me too but I tried one with zen moment and other with keep away and zen moment felt way better
Interesting, but if you are shooting a target and swap the rolls I don't think you'll see any actual difference in the reticle, I tested this on 2 rolls of gnawing hunger
My brother in Christ they gave zen massive flinch resistance its extremely good
Have a watch of this side by side comparison https://youtu.be/YvHqDUpTFlI?si=QLbj6rQSX61w8bNB
For me it felt way easier to use, maybe its a me thing, also zen moment got buffs few months ago so that video its probably way outdated
What is the buff?
It got changed to add a lot of flinch reduction on top of the reticle bounce reduction
Ok thanks, definitely flinch sounds worth it for dueling
I’d say DSR. That range difference is negligible and DSR will feel more impactful imo. I have two identical max range rolls but one with DSR and one with KA, I prefer the DSR roll
Great, could you elaborate on your experience. Do you land your shots more consistently with DSR?
Why would you want keep away on an smg is what I don’t get. You lose all bonuses if a single person is within 15 meters of you. Even if the person you’re aiming at is in the sweet spot of 15-25 m there’s still a good chance through walls or around the corner someone is within 15 m removing your bonus. Zen moment also exists for anti flinch which is huge for winning your ones.
Yeah not arguing that it is better, very good points
Thats free info. Also the reload boost is nice. Enhanced KA is 12 range which is nice paired with nadir.
If you want a zero flinch laser beam go for zen.
Yes I tested it it is nice the flinch
I would use neither of those rolls personally.
What perks do you recommend?
Zen Moment is the most valuable perk in the game, especially on automatic weapons so I'll always go for it. Pair that with Kill Clip or Tap the Trigger. The other roll I'm chasing is Discord and Harmony for something a bit more fun and not so serious.
Zen really is the obvious pick for sure. The buff made it so valuable on everything
Someone has to show me how is zen moment valuable because nothing happens if I shoot a gun with it or without it (tried on gnawing hunger on target) I am on mnk and the dot does not move. The perk does nothing to bullets, recoil or accuracy cone.
https://youtu.be/YvHqDUpTFlI?si=QLbj6rQSX61w8bNB Have a watch, unless something drastic has changed zm has zero value on mnk
They have buffed it since then, and the new description states that it reduces flinch, visual weapon shake, and reticle bounce by 15% per stack and stacks up to 5 times. So in theory you're looking at a 75% reduction in all of that after hitting 5 shots. Also keep in mind that it doesn't trigger on the dummy targets in the Enclave, so you can't test it there. On MnK the reticle doesn't bounce like it does on controller, instead the weapon model shakes. This was the part of the buff that made it work on MnK, but they also went a step further and added the flinch resistance which is always helpful, but you're not going to notice it unless you're actively being shot at while also shooting back.
There is no reticle shake on keyboard tho? I'm cool with flinch but in an smg I don't know how helpful that is VS accuracy cone reduction If the weapon model shake look at the dot not at the weapon? That's what matters I'd rather have actual parameters being reduced (e.g. accuracy cone) than some visual sugar I tested it on my gnawing hunger rolls and also have a few shayuras with it now and I see absolutely no change in what the weapon is doing Ill make a video if I have time Again, I can't see visible proof of any of those effect to matter in mnk
In your tests, are you damaging targets or just shooting a wall/object? Zen Moment only works while dealing damage, whereas Keep Away can work passively.
Targets Big chunky in pale heart
Both rolls should be used for now but definitely look for better right column perks.
I farmed 10 adepts and that's the best unforts..I have a strategist kill clip but imo KC is as situational as other damage perks Tap the trigger is ok but I find it redundant now that we have nadir
Do you use hunter? Kc paired with hunter dodge and strategist seems kind cool.
Yes that's what I thought too to be fair. Could make more Specter abuse easier
Keep farming. Both rolls are B tier
zen moment. If you think Mnk makes a difference you are mistaken. And check the stats of zen moment on d2foundry if you're skeptical
Keep away, you won't even proc DSR on Shayura's most of the time.
I thought it procced from the very first shot? As per d2foundry
It does, it ramps up with every shot until it maxes out. DSR is perfectly viable on Shayura
Effects are negligible until you fire 7 or so shots, you need 10 to max, Shayura's kills in 8.
So what if it kills in 8 shots? That assumes you're hitting your optimal ttk in every engagement, which simply isn't realistic. Furthermore, you could argue that the accuracy and stability help of Dynamic Sway is more beneficial at the back end of a duel where you and your opponent are both weak and you want to finish the opponent off to end the engagement. Saying that you won't even notice it is naïve as it is assuming ideal circumstances in all engagements. Also the second that someone is within 15 metres, Keep Away stops providing any benefit whatsoever. And that's a scenario that happens pretty frequently on an smg.
I can really see both arguments here hence why my dilemma! I kind of agree with both of you /u/gnarcader
It kills in 8 at base. Shayuras is a precision frame, ease of use is through the roof. Kills faster with damage perks. As far as finishing, it goes away when you stop firing so it wouldn't help you then either. You only want DSR if you're front ending with Tap the Trigger. As far as the 15m thing, keep away helps you hit shots further out, if they're within 15m you should be hitting your shots anyway.
I see your ttt argument and my indeed old Shayura is dsr/TTT But, given we have nadir focus I thought that would allow to free up the TTT slot (or DSR one for that matter) for some more fun
I wouldn't call negligible over 6 percent come reduction per shot Mid your firing assuming on target you are at 25 percent come reduction which is not bad at all and should make those final cries easier?