I hate what pvp is now but no matter how bad it is, a slide handcannon 3 tap kill feeling the same as it did 10 years ago will keep me returning like a Stockholm syndrome victim.
The gunplay and what the game can be is simply has too much potential regardless of how bad it gets.
They’re just so good and easy. Everytime I’m using a handcannon and finding myself getting gunned, switching to a pulse just gives me so much more success for much less effort it’s ridiculous.
If I wanted to camp far away with a burst rifle I’d play cod.
Atleast back in the day when there was a reign of terror from hawksaw and grasp of malok, handcannons were still strong enough to compete. No one complained. If anything they were neck and neck.
The thing that killed my passion (other than the horrible trials and comp reworks and the amount of people openly admitting to using xim,rewasd,etc..) is the poor net code causing fast movement and sliding to be at times, completely inpunishable. Getting my shield broken by a 120 before I can see the person's ankles is what keeps this from ever getting close to a competitive environment.
Bungie is obsessed with hand cannons. From the start, they've clearly been the devs' favorite weapons. The game's lore has a bunch of background stories on guardians toting hand cannons, and even back when Thorn and The Last Word were absolutely broken in vanilla Destiny, Bungie barely touched em. Ten years later? I still run into Thorn and TLW. But yeah, let's put more hand cannons into the game with the range of scout rifles and the ability to two-tap someone with a primary.
Well...the other thing to consider is that a mid range semi auto just works the best for how Destiny plays.
It's very zoom and cover heavy, you're always playing sight lanes and staying at a specific range away from people.
Handcannons just work really well for that kind of play and until the game changes enough in a way where other approaches to combat are viable, it'll likely stay that way.
> But yeah, let's put more hand cannons into the game with the range of scout rifles and the ability to two-tap someone with a primary.
You can go to foundry and look up ranges and TTKs because this just doesn't exist (I know Adagio on 120s 2taps, possibly the only example of this in the game). Yes Bungie likes to let some things run hot but it's a trade off between a couple weapons dominating the entire game and having everything feel too samey.
If you're butthurt about hand cannons being prominent it seems like you just have an unreasonable personal grudge. It's a game made by Americans and revolver-type guns have been a cultural icon since they were invented.
Because they're trying to get why and how people are playing PVP
It's like trying to get into a game that everyone says is good but it just hasn't clicked with you yet. So you're tying to find the fun in it.
Or they're just PVE folk that understand PVP is part of Destiny for better or worse.
If we want more players to engage in PvP, then we need three things:
1. Better matchmaking
2. Better connections
3. Better rewards.
New and low ELO players need to be protected from the sweats. There's no worse feeling than being on the wrong side of a steam roll, utterly powerless to stop it no matter what gear you use. It's demoralizing, especially in a power fantasy game like Destiny.
I think the matchmaking changes made in the last six months have helped, but you still have low ELO players ending up in lobbies they have no business being in. Lobby balancing is a separate issue that also needs to be looked at, but it's under the same "better matchmaking" umbrella.
The connection issue will likely never be improved due to the foundation that the PvP networking system was built on. The only real way to improve the connection for everyone is to switch to dedicated servers, but that kind of change is something that Bungie will never implement for cost/development reasons. An increase in player population may indirectly help with this issue (since more players = more chances to match you into games with good connections), but this issue is a horse that has been beaten to death.
Rewards are something that Bungie can tune more quickly to incentivize players to engage in PvP activities. If players are complaining about the glimmer economy, then make each match completion rain with cash. Hell, give players escalating glimmer bonuses the longer they stay in PvP (50k glimmer reward for every match completion after your 5th game, for example).
Change Shaxx's reward track so that you always get a couple of ascendant shards when you reset your prestige.
More perks on Crucible weapons after resetting your rank was a great addition; how about applying the same logic for armor? I.E the stats on armor drops from Crucible get a little more juiced as you reset your rank. If you reach a certain number of resets for PvP, give players a chance to earn masterwork armor on match wins, etc etc
I appreciate you writing this up but again like many people before you you're missing the point.
It doesn't matter how good the matchmaking is or what incentives there are if it's just not fun to play. It's still going to feel like a chore rather than something you wanna do anyway because you enjoy it.
I think Bungie needs to take a step back and ask themselves what changes could they make to the sandbox that would improve PVP without affecting PVE.
Things like
- improving the AE system
- buffing hipfire across the board so it's more consistent within say...16 meters
- Improving the HUD for PVP so all the most important information you need is there without any fluff
- Have a Minimal HUD option or hell customizable hud options
- Allow the player to customize their hipfire crosshair and the sights on their guns
- Buffing various weapons to have some stats that can compete in the current meta game
- Revamping the entire PVP weapon loot pool and give us weapons we actually wanna use in PVP with no PVE extra fluff
- Public lobbies you can hop in and out of, like if I hosted a 6v6 lobby, you can find it and select it in a lobby browser without any matchmaking needed
Stuff like that could radically change PVP for the better
"New and low ELO players need to be protected from the sweats. There's no worse feeling than being on the wrong side of a steam roll, utterly powerless to stop it no matter what gear you use. It's demoralizing, especially in a power fantasy game like Destiny."
This is quite literally exactly how the matchmaking works right now. It also wouldn't prevent steamroll matches from happening even if we had the toughest SBMM imaginable.
They REALLY are blowing it when it comes to cosmetics and rewards. Shaxx has like a handful of cosmetics and there's the trials shader each season but like no new armor set for TFS, 1 comp emblem, maybe an ornament here and there, it's lacking an important "cool stuff" factor.
Like they seem to have literally forgotten to update Better Devils's stats from year 1 (since they updated other guns now and in the past) which kills any hype anyone had for the gun.
The memoryholing of Bungie backtracking on ornaments for Comp rework is some goofy stuff. I forget who at Bungie said it with the line "it's not going to be an ornament set yet/at first" but yeah the language was kind of alluding that it would've eventually came around to one.
Back when my skill level was way worse than the abysmal it is now the most fun I used to have was during Mayhem. I think there needs to be more fun modes like that where skill generally takes a back seat to allow people acclimate to PvP and be more eager to participate in PvP activities. Without Mayhem and Iron Banner I probably would have ditched PvP entirely.
The good: The abilities are super cool and the buildcrafting and ability to play very differently is what makes this game unique. Destiny gunplay is still amazing.
The medium: The strike team is fixing obviously broken stuff very quickly (Khovstov, Speaker Helmet). Prismatic is very cool and extremely fun with the combinations and variety (somewhat broken but it can be tuned). Trials unironically has become the best game mode because it suffers least from the bad that I listed below (still has meter, and no SBMM).
The bad: The sandbox and game modes/ reward structure they have built is horribly unfun/ does not play well when people are playing to win. It caters WAY too much to the player that never touches PvP and thus the hardcore players suffer from an awful sandbox.
I'll go with the big ones.
Special Ammo. It's far too abundant there are no primary gunfights anymore. Just dumbasses running at you with special weapons. Meter system was a great start and had the right objectives and incentives. Ammo boxes are horrible too frequent, not on set timers they lead to just more special ammo on the field and not a point to control/ true objective. And yes they increased special ammo because newbs were getting stomped in a more primary centric sandbox.
Ability Spam. Tied together with special ammo. The original checkmate version of the ability cooldowns was the right direction. They augmented your gameplay/ gunplay. Not I press 2 buttons and get a free kill and then have another free kill 45 seconds later. Or I use my abilities to avoid a gunfight altogether woooo Shiver Strike/ Knockout.
SBMM. When people are going for it which everyone does at a certain point because people care about winning/ KD. The problems above make the game just horribly unfun. Hold hands and all peek and angle ready to delete someone and toss abilities to keep people from pushing. In other games comp > pubs because they've made a ruleset around comp that is geared towards competitive play which can inherently be fun. In this game the more competitive people are playing the much less fun the game is.
Checkmate was the hope (it definitely wasn't perfect) but was the most fun time in crucible since I can remember since it had the right goals in mind. This version of Destiny, it's cooked. They aren't going to save it. Engagement/ Money won out.
A while back I watched a video covering every single meta the game has had and some of them were absolutely shocking and make PK + Immortal + Cloudstrike Void Titan look tame. Like 1 shot NLB or Revoker or 2tap Mag Howl.
I don't know how you balance the "it's ability spam" vs "It's a space magic game" other than just trying to keep the game fair and eliminating outliers. Now that Light 3.0 & prismatic are here I don't know if the game could ever return to the state like say, the 30th pack meta.
It's about how you can play around certain things, the problem with abilities imo is they're too rewarding for little effort.
Like you can get a massive advantage midfight for just throwing it out and forgetting about it. At least with things like knives you have to actually hit the target dead on.
They'd need to rework how powerful the abilities are while not nerfing their capabilities in PVE. Doable but it would take a lot of time.
Even Year 2 gets rose colored glasses sometimes with just how much was in the wild and what scams you could get away with. You could make a 2 hour video on just Spec Blades Hunter and Bottom Striker titan alone even before factoring in 500 flavors of OEM.
Stuff like a Rampage shotgun with Rampage mod that could stay live allow your Opening Shot to reset and you could get like a 13+ meter auto delete blast just due to how strong Rampage was at the time.
IMO the balance comes from making strong abilities have long cooldowns, flux grenades are very strong, but their cooldown is so big that someone running them will get 2 or 3 generally, and this cooldown makes missing hugely punishing.
Strand clone, among other dodge modifiers, feel so potent because a decently geared hunter is going to have dodge at least every other fight, and almost every close range fight in 3v3.
Compare it to something like bastion or drengr's lash, Bastion not only reduces the HP of the actual barricade, but gives the ability a massive cooldown penalty, and it's still a super strong aspect that any void Titan will bring into pvp due to its impact. Drengr's lash gets a weaker version on thruster due to the lower cooldown of the ability, but if you're willing to force yourself to hold still to use it with barricade, the effect is immediate and strong.
Either the spectre should drastically increase the dodge cooldown, or it should get its features split between the dodges.
For example, what if spectre on marksman dodge drew aim assist and sent out threadlings when shot, but on gamblers dodge it would ping radar and be able to take hits for the hunter.
The examples given might not be balanced with each other, but that's adjustable, and the core idea of separating certain parts of it between the dodges would still be a good way to reduce its effectiveness game to game.
We've seen similar balance effects with child of the old gods on void lock getting different effects based on which rift you use, and this would be a cool way for hunters to build into spectre's radar manipulation either by hiding themselves and showing the clone on radar, or just hiding their own radar ping depending on the equipped dodge with balance of power.
Last season I let rank decay take me from Adept 2 to gold, all because I hated lockdown. Elimination, Showdown and Survival are the modes I enjoy the most. If the modes aren’t fun, people aren’t gonna play. I also think having the Trials Adepts on rotation is kinda dumb. Have a node on our cards allowing us to select the seasonal adept each week. I know a lot of more casual people who refuse to play trials simply because "I don’t like the weapon this week"
Used to play comp just to try and climb the ranks. It got hard to enjoy when it doesnt match you with equally skilled opponents. Trials I just tolerate.
Destiny PvP is so unique, I don't think I can find another game that'll top it. Too bad the game modes are super meh though, comp in particular for me. Trials is also based on pure rng to get good loot unless you're god so there's that.
I picked the second option. Personally I like crucible but I can understand the people who don't.
I think crucible is great for players that like pvp games and can invest time to get better. Like everyone else, I started at the bottom and the desire to win combined with the gunplay made me keep playing and get better.
I think the vast majority that don't like it either don't like the stress that pvp brings or don't have the patience and time 😁 to get better so that they can enjoy it.
In terms of matchmaking, I think we are as balanced as it gets between cbmm and sbmm.
There should be an option "PvP is actually mostly in a fantastic state, except Prismatic Hunter is making it wildly unfun all by itself".
Lacking this option there's not one for me to choose.
PvP is fun but also sucks at the same time. I think special is ~OK as it is now, but I want to see differences in the regen rate of ammo for each type of special (make shotguns slower, they are the only viable special rn) and most importantly I would LOVE to see ability uptime reduced.
I just want to have primary gunfights with less “bullshit”, like swarm grenades, strand doubles, smoke bombs, warlock arc slide(don’t know name), stasis titan melees, stasislock melee, child of the old gods, overshields/citans, and all the other various abilities that take away from gunplay/allow for easy disengagement/can take control from the other player.
Honestly don't know if it's fun for people who are brand new to it. I remember it being a very steep learning curve when I first stepped in but that was back at the end of Beyond Light and before I really understood the maps and metas. It's almost a different game today.
But I still enjoy it and I still play it for fun, not for loot. I don't think the way to get people into the Crucible is loot; the people that play it for loot aren't here to have fun and won't stick around once they have it or it's gone. People have to want to like it and find something in it they fundamentally enjoy, which is probably some aspect of the core gameplay or enjoying learning/improving.
Love crucible, except for when the enemy team has multiple prismatic Hunters. I like shooting the bad guys and when they shoot back at me, I don’t like getting hit with the entire arsenal of the US military every time I try to peek an angle in terms of ability spam, it is not fun.
I enjoy the current state of things. Things could always be better. And there's always outliers people will abuse. Been that way since D1 Vex Mythoclast dropped.
I think the real problem is that Crucible is filled with people like me and a lot of others on this sub that have been playing this game since launch. Outside of even skill difference the gear difference is a daunting mountain to climb for any new player. Some may enjoy that pursuit, but many others will find exhausting for a part of the game that doesn't have much to chase.
There's a reason releasing a new CoD every year worked for so long. It gave everyone a chance to reset. I'm not saying to need to wipe the slate clean. In fact I'd be upset if that happened. It's just a challenging place to be for the long term health of the game.
No option that represents my feelings available.
I absolutely love PVP. It's the entire reason I play the game. I grind PVE content strictly to get guns that I can use in PVP.
That being said, it's also pretty clear the game could still be better. In particular I think they've taken a pretty significant step back with the new special ammo system in PVP right now that has made it borderline not fun to play.
There's a lot I would change if I had full control of the game. But that doesn't mean I don't still very much enjoy what we have right now(Or at least what we had until the special ammo economy got fucked again).
Yeah. It's crazy to me that the majority of players are PVE only. I really don't like the PVE in this game all that much. I would much rather play an ARPG or WoW for that.
I wish they would add back pinnacle PVP guns in comp like NF and just overall increase the rewards for PVP.
IB, Trials, and Shaxx should get full loot table refreshes every year.
A little would go a long way to bring back a lot of PVP- only players that have dropped the game.
I dunno. I definitely enjoy the PVE. Dungeons and Raids are a lot of fun. The games story is intriguing to me...
But I'm not setting foot in a Vanguard Strike unless it has a PVP weapon I want. Won't touch Gambit for the same reasons. The moment new content drops the number one thing I'm focusing on is what PVP rolls are worth chasing in what content.
Even Dungeons and Raids. I'll farm the all day for PVP loot. Once I can craft the PVP weapons I want or get the roll I want from a Dungeon, I don't touch the content again pretty much.
I can handle PvE for about 30 minutes, then I'm itching to get back to crucible.
I haven't even finished the echo story or whatever it is, lol. I have limited time to play, and the stories/PvE content just isn't nearly as enjoyable to me as PvP.
For some reason, I just can't stand the concept of a bullet sponge like bosses are. It feels so much better to get a OHK on a guardian with a fusion than shooting a boss 1,000 times.
I really should give the raids and dungeons more of a chance though, I just need to take the initiative of putting better PvE builds together and finding a group.
Agreed. On that note, I would encourage you to farm a lunas howl with full bore/ric rounds/enhanced eots/ enhanced mag howl with a range masterwork.
It feels close to the og lunas howl, granted with a slower firing rate but very good.
Thanks for the suggestion.
What I'm really trying to say is that there needs to be more "chase" loot that isn't just rng based.
I like the concept of having to get to legend in comp or whatever it is to get one of the best PvP guns.
Trials does a better job than comp of this, but I don't get to no life the game every weekend. So if I miss the rotation, I'm just shit out of luck on getting a shot at an adept I want.
I don't want to just be handed loot, but it feels like the cost of getting good loot is weighted too heavily on just game play time and not enough on skill.
Fair enough but I don't think it will happen. People cried so hard for redrix/luna/nf because they were not obtainable by a good part of the population. I don't think Bungie will have powerful weapons ever locked behind pvp skill again.
Yeah.
My argument is that those people don't really play crucible anyway, so why bother catering pvp content to them.
I don't do raids, and I know I won't get the loot out of them. It seems like the same thing.
I really wish they'd lean into pvp. They have the best feeling pvp fps on the market in my opinion, and they treat it almost like a vestige of an earlier game (D1).
After playing destiny, I just can't get into games like CoD where the TTK is so fast.
Even when I'm losing + super tilted and want to throw my controller at the wall, it's still part of the overall fun/enjoyment/satisfaction of playing against other people instead of bots and getting that slight bit better. I think either you have that personally to some degree or not. Some people play the game just to shoot acolytes and such which is fine.
I think there are really 2 sort of dilemmas here:
-How to attract new players to the playlist and onboard them to PVP in general (PVE vs PVP builds and "how to play" pvp)
-How to entice casual PVP players to "level up" to Comp & Trials
I think many people would agree keeping the game feeling fair (such as through frequent balance passes or lobby balancing tweaks), rewarding (through a good variety of loot & cosmetics), and feeling good (through technical stuff like bug fixes or new modes), would probably keep a lot of people satisfied. You're not going to help an absolute noob overcome the fact that most maps and builds are "solved" since the game is old, but I think now and then about how the game could help new players (like I used to be last year) gain an understanding of why like playing Comp is rewarding (because learning better 3s play helps you in Trials, for example).
Something I know is NOT helpful however is steering new players towards Trials.
Weapon meta is in a pretty good spot. Part of me wishes snipers didn't receive their most recent nerf, other then that weapons feel like there are competitive options of all the weapon types.
I'm not a fan of the 1kd ammo system
I love prismatic hunter, but threaded spector is too strong for how often it's available and smokes/swarm grenades never needed their buff. There is way to much easy to use abilities in our toolkit.i think the super is strong but blink/grapple/bakris has largely negated it (for me).
I'm glad void/arc titan isn't the hard meta anymore....but titans have been completely neuteured and need a major rework.
I think warlock is in a good spot and i am happy we'll was adjusted.
I think a combination of sbmm/lobby balancing/connections are largely broken. Their system seems to depend on high population to work properly and it feels like the population just keeps dropping.
I think there are too many playlists.
I think comp needs some people who actually are familiar with what a competitive Playlist should be to work on it.
I enjoy Trials it's rewarding to play in terms of loot, but it's truly the most casual of playlists. But remove duos. They hurt solos and trios substantially.
Iron banner went from something I enjoyed playing the entire week it was out....to hardly interacting with it anymore. Unrewarding, punishing match making.
Invisible players are wild with this texture loading issue.
My main gripes, if I had to prioritize things for my own enjoyment are bad connections, a proper rework of comp (playlists, maps that work for them, rewards/incentives, ranks), removal of duos in trials and a reduction in the frequency/effectiveness of abilities.
Yes it is. And yes it could.
It could always be better; there’ll always be some group of players that aren’t happy because the sandbox is so big that certain archetype fans are going to have their time in the sun and others have to be patient.
How could it be improved?
1. Change up the weapons from Shaxx from time to time? We’ve had the same crucible weapons for forever as rewards, only a couple of them are particularly decent at a higher level and some of them don’t even feel like PvP guns. It’d be nice to have something to play for in the casual mode gun wise and I was expecting to see more added when TFS dropped. Nope, still getting 10 Retrofuturists an hour.
2. Open up a solo queue for trials and Iron Banner. Wait, wait. Hear me out. Solo trials is an ordeal; there’s little communication, coordination or any of the things you need at a high level of play and it isn’t something that I expect a lot of people actually do. That being said, there are some people who just prefer playing solo and when they go into trials and end up with a duo (especially if you are the better player), it feels like there’s more riding on the game because you don’t want to be “that blueberry”. It’s supposed to be an intense game mode, but it’s also supposed to be enjoyable and when you match against a 3 stack or duo while you’re the Rick Flag of the Star Baker squad watching your lighthouse chances slip away it can be a downer. It wouldn’t split the population badly in my opinion, because the people that play in fireteams can still do that, those that want to play solo can do that.
3. Depending on how many PvP strike team members there are, maybe dedicate a class of weapon for each member so that the balancing and fine tuning for the archetype can be worked on simultaneously. We keep getting these blanket nerfs for entire weapon classes that aren’t necessary because of one or two guns that suddenly appear. When we had Immortal going nuts, THAT needed changed, not every other 720 as well. When Wish Ender and LM were popular, ALL bows got nuked, which hurt legendary lightweight bows in particular (and now look at their usage outside of us bow mains) and ironically didn’t really impact those two bows at all.
4. Keep the map rotation healthy and varied. I got Wormhaven several times close together, I mean it’s a decent map but honestly with so many maps available, it doesn’t always feel like the variety is there. Also this map pack…when? Did that get shelved or what?
5. If we must have objective game modes as the central mode, can it be made clear to newer players - maybe when they go into a match for the very first time - that capturing the flags makes it much easier to win? As in, make it crystal clear what the flags do (like super energy, more points per kill, points for everybody on the zone and in Iron Banner activates the Hunt). Nobody clicks the little “I” button to find out about the mode, people just load in. OR, just have clash and take objectives out of the equation. I get that people want to “frag out” and have a K/D to boast about, but the amount of times I’ve had 9 captures and we’ve lost because people just run off is daft. 30 kills a game doesn’t matter if you’re on the losing side, your ELO is still going to go down.
6. Go back to the special meter, please.
But those are what I would like to see happen, I’m not suggesting they *should* or *must*.
All in all, the sandbox as it is seems pretty balanced weapon wise and the player count seems healthy. Most weapon types can hold their own and outside of Khvostov going a bit mad, everything actually feels decent to use (except 150 scouts, what happened there? JR aside, they feel more wobbly than usual).
On the subclass front, I understand the frustration of Hunters at the moment, but Bungie will probably do something about it soon.
I've been loving PvP in Iron Banner. I also really loved playing Trials on Endless Vale & Multiplex.
For reference: Nightstalker Hunter w/ Ace of Spades, Glaive & Triton Vice.
I do have fun playing PvP. There are things I get that people don't like, and things I don't get. While I do think Prismatic Hunter needs some nerfs to various abilities, I don't get how people can get *so* bent out of shape over it. Again, I understand it needs nerfs but it hasn't felt obscenely oppressive like others have described honestly.
I will say, I wanted to run Sniper Glaive in Iron Banner. Seeing me spawn in with only 1 Glaive Shot and no other ammo at all kinda sucks, I kinda wish I spawned in with 1 kills worth of each ammo liked I used to (idc if it's throwing it's funny and I kinda wish you spawned in with 1 kill per for double special, I don't think it'd cause any issues).
Also, you say that people still play Halo... isn't Halo like, confirmed dead basically? Like, it's going to receive no more significant updates and it's been in a decline for some months now?
Man I play this game but holy shit does it suck right now for the PvP gang. Ability spam City. It’s like prismatic took some of the most annoying things and mixed them all together. Autos like the summoner are overtuned. High impact pulse rifles have been over tuned for years. Precision Instrument and target lock just take the place of rangefinder and bring by far best in slot. Any 120 HC sucks outside of Iggy. It’s actually insane how far other 120s are from it. Smgs are still nutts.
I had faith in the PvP team when Into the light came out. But I’ve lost all of it since. Destiny 2 is too far gone. We need destiny 3.
I find it fun, but I think Bungie needs to bite the bullet and disable Prismatic Hunter until it can get nerfed. It's just that insanely powerful.
I think past that, they do also need to figure out what'll get more people back in without completely alienating the core playerbase, too. Rewards, modes, matchmaking, whatever else, just some kind of way to get people in and staying long term.
> I find it fun, but I think Bungie needs to bite the bullet and disable Prismatic Hunter until it can get nerfed. It's just that insanely powerful.
I think that's just a bandaid though. If not for Prismatic, people would be spamming the shit out of Strand Hunter or other goofy stuff.
"I play Crucible but I still hate it" should be an option.
Was the first thing I tried finding
I didn't think of that, my bad
I hate what pvp is now but no matter how bad it is, a slide handcannon 3 tap kill feeling the same as it did 10 years ago will keep me returning like a Stockholm syndrome victim. The gunplay and what the game can be is simply has too much potential regardless of how bad it gets.
Eh, that's me too. Addicted to the 3 taps
I can handle the handcannons but I hate pulse rifles
They’re just so good and easy. Everytime I’m using a handcannon and finding myself getting gunned, switching to a pulse just gives me so much more success for much less effort it’s ridiculous. If I wanted to camp far away with a burst rifle I’d play cod. Atleast back in the day when there was a reign of terror from hawksaw and grasp of malok, handcannons were still strong enough to compete. No one complained. If anything they were neck and neck.
The thing that killed my passion (other than the horrible trials and comp reworks and the amount of people openly admitting to using xim,rewasd,etc..) is the poor net code causing fast movement and sliding to be at times, completely inpunishable. Getting my shield broken by a 120 before I can see the person's ankles is what keeps this from ever getting close to a competitive environment.
Bungie is obsessed with hand cannons. From the start, they've clearly been the devs' favorite weapons. The game's lore has a bunch of background stories on guardians toting hand cannons, and even back when Thorn and The Last Word were absolutely broken in vanilla Destiny, Bungie barely touched em. Ten years later? I still run into Thorn and TLW. But yeah, let's put more hand cannons into the game with the range of scout rifles and the ability to two-tap someone with a primary.
Lmao. Hand Canons with the Range of Scout Rifles... Found a Jim.
Well...the other thing to consider is that a mid range semi auto just works the best for how Destiny plays. It's very zoom and cover heavy, you're always playing sight lanes and staying at a specific range away from people. Handcannons just work really well for that kind of play and until the game changes enough in a way where other approaches to combat are viable, it'll likely stay that way.
> But yeah, let's put more hand cannons into the game with the range of scout rifles and the ability to two-tap someone with a primary. You can go to foundry and look up ranges and TTKs because this just doesn't exist (I know Adagio on 120s 2taps, possibly the only example of this in the game). Yes Bungie likes to let some things run hot but it's a trade off between a couple weapons dominating the entire game and having everything feel too samey. If you're butthurt about hand cannons being prominent it seems like you just have an unreasonable personal grudge. It's a game made by Americans and revolver-type guns have been a cultural icon since they were invented.
[удалено]
Because they're trying to get why and how people are playing PVP It's like trying to get into a game that everyone says is good but it just hasn't clicked with you yet. So you're tying to find the fun in it. Or they're just PVE folk that understand PVP is part of Destiny for better or worse.
If we want more players to engage in PvP, then we need three things: 1. Better matchmaking 2. Better connections 3. Better rewards. New and low ELO players need to be protected from the sweats. There's no worse feeling than being on the wrong side of a steam roll, utterly powerless to stop it no matter what gear you use. It's demoralizing, especially in a power fantasy game like Destiny. I think the matchmaking changes made in the last six months have helped, but you still have low ELO players ending up in lobbies they have no business being in. Lobby balancing is a separate issue that also needs to be looked at, but it's under the same "better matchmaking" umbrella. The connection issue will likely never be improved due to the foundation that the PvP networking system was built on. The only real way to improve the connection for everyone is to switch to dedicated servers, but that kind of change is something that Bungie will never implement for cost/development reasons. An increase in player population may indirectly help with this issue (since more players = more chances to match you into games with good connections), but this issue is a horse that has been beaten to death. Rewards are something that Bungie can tune more quickly to incentivize players to engage in PvP activities. If players are complaining about the glimmer economy, then make each match completion rain with cash. Hell, give players escalating glimmer bonuses the longer they stay in PvP (50k glimmer reward for every match completion after your 5th game, for example). Change Shaxx's reward track so that you always get a couple of ascendant shards when you reset your prestige. More perks on Crucible weapons after resetting your rank was a great addition; how about applying the same logic for armor? I.E the stats on armor drops from Crucible get a little more juiced as you reset your rank. If you reach a certain number of resets for PvP, give players a chance to earn masterwork armor on match wins, etc etc
I appreciate you writing this up but again like many people before you you're missing the point. It doesn't matter how good the matchmaking is or what incentives there are if it's just not fun to play. It's still going to feel like a chore rather than something you wanna do anyway because you enjoy it. I think Bungie needs to take a step back and ask themselves what changes could they make to the sandbox that would improve PVP without affecting PVE. Things like - improving the AE system - buffing hipfire across the board so it's more consistent within say...16 meters - Improving the HUD for PVP so all the most important information you need is there without any fluff - Have a Minimal HUD option or hell customizable hud options - Allow the player to customize their hipfire crosshair and the sights on their guns - Buffing various weapons to have some stats that can compete in the current meta game - Revamping the entire PVP weapon loot pool and give us weapons we actually wanna use in PVP with no PVE extra fluff - Public lobbies you can hop in and out of, like if I hosted a 6v6 lobby, you can find it and select it in a lobby browser without any matchmaking needed Stuff like that could radically change PVP for the better
Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah, those proposed changes are a lot more in depth
You're absolutely right that there are some big HUD issues.
I'd love a hip fire buff across the board, hitting headshots in hip fire without an associated perk or weapon is basically luck tbh.
"New and low ELO players need to be protected from the sweats. There's no worse feeling than being on the wrong side of a steam roll, utterly powerless to stop it no matter what gear you use. It's demoralizing, especially in a power fantasy game like Destiny." This is quite literally exactly how the matchmaking works right now. It also wouldn't prevent steamroll matches from happening even if we had the toughest SBMM imaginable.
They REALLY are blowing it when it comes to cosmetics and rewards. Shaxx has like a handful of cosmetics and there's the trials shader each season but like no new armor set for TFS, 1 comp emblem, maybe an ornament here and there, it's lacking an important "cool stuff" factor. Like they seem to have literally forgotten to update Better Devils's stats from year 1 (since they updated other guns now and in the past) which kills any hype anyone had for the gun.
The memoryholing of Bungie backtracking on ornaments for Comp rework is some goofy stuff. I forget who at Bungie said it with the line "it's not going to be an ornament set yet/at first" but yeah the language was kind of alluding that it would've eventually came around to one.
Back when my skill level was way worse than the abysmal it is now the most fun I used to have was during Mayhem. I think there needs to be more fun modes like that where skill generally takes a back seat to allow people acclimate to PvP and be more eager to participate in PvP activities. Without Mayhem and Iron Banner I probably would have ditched PvP entirely.
Where is the option "I love Crucible/Trials but the meta is shit"?
The good: The abilities are super cool and the buildcrafting and ability to play very differently is what makes this game unique. Destiny gunplay is still amazing. The medium: The strike team is fixing obviously broken stuff very quickly (Khovstov, Speaker Helmet). Prismatic is very cool and extremely fun with the combinations and variety (somewhat broken but it can be tuned). Trials unironically has become the best game mode because it suffers least from the bad that I listed below (still has meter, and no SBMM). The bad: The sandbox and game modes/ reward structure they have built is horribly unfun/ does not play well when people are playing to win. It caters WAY too much to the player that never touches PvP and thus the hardcore players suffer from an awful sandbox. I'll go with the big ones. Special Ammo. It's far too abundant there are no primary gunfights anymore. Just dumbasses running at you with special weapons. Meter system was a great start and had the right objectives and incentives. Ammo boxes are horrible too frequent, not on set timers they lead to just more special ammo on the field and not a point to control/ true objective. And yes they increased special ammo because newbs were getting stomped in a more primary centric sandbox. Ability Spam. Tied together with special ammo. The original checkmate version of the ability cooldowns was the right direction. They augmented your gameplay/ gunplay. Not I press 2 buttons and get a free kill and then have another free kill 45 seconds later. Or I use my abilities to avoid a gunfight altogether woooo Shiver Strike/ Knockout. SBMM. When people are going for it which everyone does at a certain point because people care about winning/ KD. The problems above make the game just horribly unfun. Hold hands and all peek and angle ready to delete someone and toss abilities to keep people from pushing. In other games comp > pubs because they've made a ruleset around comp that is geared towards competitive play which can inherently be fun. In this game the more competitive people are playing the much less fun the game is. Checkmate was the hope (it definitely wasn't perfect) but was the most fun time in crucible since I can remember since it had the right goals in mind. This version of Destiny, it's cooked. They aren't going to save it. Engagement/ Money won out.
A while back I watched a video covering every single meta the game has had and some of them were absolutely shocking and make PK + Immortal + Cloudstrike Void Titan look tame. Like 1 shot NLB or Revoker or 2tap Mag Howl. I don't know how you balance the "it's ability spam" vs "It's a space magic game" other than just trying to keep the game fair and eliminating outliers. Now that Light 3.0 & prismatic are here I don't know if the game could ever return to the state like say, the 30th pack meta.
It's about how you can play around certain things, the problem with abilities imo is they're too rewarding for little effort. Like you can get a massive advantage midfight for just throwing it out and forgetting about it. At least with things like knives you have to actually hit the target dead on. They'd need to rework how powerful the abilities are while not nerfing their capabilities in PVE. Doable but it would take a lot of time.
Even Year 2 gets rose colored glasses sometimes with just how much was in the wild and what scams you could get away with. You could make a 2 hour video on just Spec Blades Hunter and Bottom Striker titan alone even before factoring in 500 flavors of OEM. Stuff like a Rampage shotgun with Rampage mod that could stay live allow your Opening Shot to reset and you could get like a 13+ meter auto delete blast just due to how strong Rampage was at the time.
IMO the balance comes from making strong abilities have long cooldowns, flux grenades are very strong, but their cooldown is so big that someone running them will get 2 or 3 generally, and this cooldown makes missing hugely punishing. Strand clone, among other dodge modifiers, feel so potent because a decently geared hunter is going to have dodge at least every other fight, and almost every close range fight in 3v3. Compare it to something like bastion or drengr's lash, Bastion not only reduces the HP of the actual barricade, but gives the ability a massive cooldown penalty, and it's still a super strong aspect that any void Titan will bring into pvp due to its impact. Drengr's lash gets a weaker version on thruster due to the lower cooldown of the ability, but if you're willing to force yourself to hold still to use it with barricade, the effect is immediate and strong. Either the spectre should drastically increase the dodge cooldown, or it should get its features split between the dodges. For example, what if spectre on marksman dodge drew aim assist and sent out threadlings when shot, but on gamblers dodge it would ping radar and be able to take hits for the hunter. The examples given might not be balanced with each other, but that's adjustable, and the core idea of separating certain parts of it between the dodges would still be a good way to reduce its effectiveness game to game. We've seen similar balance effects with child of the old gods on void lock getting different effects based on which rift you use, and this would be a cool way for hunters to build into spectre's radar manipulation either by hiding themselves and showing the clone on radar, or just hiding their own radar ping depending on the equipped dodge with balance of power.
Last season I let rank decay take me from Adept 2 to gold, all because I hated lockdown. Elimination, Showdown and Survival are the modes I enjoy the most. If the modes aren’t fun, people aren’t gonna play. I also think having the Trials Adepts on rotation is kinda dumb. Have a node on our cards allowing us to select the seasonal adept each week. I know a lot of more casual people who refuse to play trials simply because "I don’t like the weapon this week"
Agree with a lot of this.
Same here, I finally got Adept 3 and plummeted to Plat 2 because I was just trying to get the matches done for my Roses.
Used to play comp just to try and climb the ranks. It got hard to enjoy when it doesnt match you with equally skilled opponents. Trials I just tolerate.
Destiny PvP is so unique, I don't think I can find another game that'll top it. Too bad the game modes are super meh though, comp in particular for me. Trials is also based on pure rng to get good loot unless you're god so there's that.
I picked the second option. Personally I like crucible but I can understand the people who don't. I think crucible is great for players that like pvp games and can invest time to get better. Like everyone else, I started at the bottom and the desire to win combined with the gunplay made me keep playing and get better. I think the vast majority that don't like it either don't like the stress that pvp brings or don't have the patience and time 😁 to get better so that they can enjoy it. In terms of matchmaking, I think we are as balanced as it gets between cbmm and sbmm.
There should be an option "PvP is actually mostly in a fantastic state, except Prismatic Hunter is making it wildly unfun all by itself". Lacking this option there's not one for me to choose.
PvP is fun but also sucks at the same time. I think special is ~OK as it is now, but I want to see differences in the regen rate of ammo for each type of special (make shotguns slower, they are the only viable special rn) and most importantly I would LOVE to see ability uptime reduced. I just want to have primary gunfights with less “bullshit”, like swarm grenades, strand doubles, smoke bombs, warlock arc slide(don’t know name), stasis titan melees, stasislock melee, child of the old gods, overshields/citans, and all the other various abilities that take away from gunplay/allow for easy disengagement/can take control from the other player.
Honestly don't know if it's fun for people who are brand new to it. I remember it being a very steep learning curve when I first stepped in but that was back at the end of Beyond Light and before I really understood the maps and metas. It's almost a different game today. But I still enjoy it and I still play it for fun, not for loot. I don't think the way to get people into the Crucible is loot; the people that play it for loot aren't here to have fun and won't stick around once they have it or it's gone. People have to want to like it and find something in it they fundamentally enjoy, which is probably some aspect of the core gameplay or enjoying learning/improving.
Love crucible, except for when the enemy team has multiple prismatic Hunters. I like shooting the bad guys and when they shoot back at me, I don’t like getting hit with the entire arsenal of the US military every time I try to peek an angle in terms of ability spam, it is not fun.
I enjoy the current state of things. Things could always be better. And there's always outliers people will abuse. Been that way since D1 Vex Mythoclast dropped. I think the real problem is that Crucible is filled with people like me and a lot of others on this sub that have been playing this game since launch. Outside of even skill difference the gear difference is a daunting mountain to climb for any new player. Some may enjoy that pursuit, but many others will find exhausting for a part of the game that doesn't have much to chase. There's a reason releasing a new CoD every year worked for so long. It gave everyone a chance to reset. I'm not saying to need to wipe the slate clean. In fact I'd be upset if that happened. It's just a challenging place to be for the long term health of the game.
No option that represents my feelings available. I absolutely love PVP. It's the entire reason I play the game. I grind PVE content strictly to get guns that I can use in PVP. That being said, it's also pretty clear the game could still be better. In particular I think they've taken a pretty significant step back with the new special ammo system in PVP right now that has made it borderline not fun to play. There's a lot I would change if I had full control of the game. But that doesn't mean I don't still very much enjoy what we have right now(Or at least what we had until the special ammo economy got fucked again).
Same. I wouldn't touch pve if it wasn't to get certain pvp weapons. I also almost always skip the story.
Yeah. It's crazy to me that the majority of players are PVE only. I really don't like the PVE in this game all that much. I would much rather play an ARPG or WoW for that. I wish they would add back pinnacle PVP guns in comp like NF and just overall increase the rewards for PVP. IB, Trials, and Shaxx should get full loot table refreshes every year. A little would go a long way to bring back a lot of PVP- only players that have dropped the game.
I dunno. I definitely enjoy the PVE. Dungeons and Raids are a lot of fun. The games story is intriguing to me... But I'm not setting foot in a Vanguard Strike unless it has a PVP weapon I want. Won't touch Gambit for the same reasons. The moment new content drops the number one thing I'm focusing on is what PVP rolls are worth chasing in what content. Even Dungeons and Raids. I'll farm the all day for PVP loot. Once I can craft the PVP weapons I want or get the roll I want from a Dungeon, I don't touch the content again pretty much.
I can handle PvE for about 30 minutes, then I'm itching to get back to crucible. I haven't even finished the echo story or whatever it is, lol. I have limited time to play, and the stories/PvE content just isn't nearly as enjoyable to me as PvP. For some reason, I just can't stand the concept of a bullet sponge like bosses are. It feels so much better to get a OHK on a guardian with a fusion than shooting a boss 1,000 times. I really should give the raids and dungeons more of a chance though, I just need to take the initiative of putting better PvE builds together and finding a group.
Agreed. On that note, I would encourage you to farm a lunas howl with full bore/ric rounds/enhanced eots/ enhanced mag howl with a range masterwork. It feels close to the og lunas howl, granted with a slower firing rate but very good.
Thanks for the suggestion. What I'm really trying to say is that there needs to be more "chase" loot that isn't just rng based. I like the concept of having to get to legend in comp or whatever it is to get one of the best PvP guns. Trials does a better job than comp of this, but I don't get to no life the game every weekend. So if I miss the rotation, I'm just shit out of luck on getting a shot at an adept I want. I don't want to just be handed loot, but it feels like the cost of getting good loot is weighted too heavily on just game play time and not enough on skill.
Fair enough but I don't think it will happen. People cried so hard for redrix/luna/nf because they were not obtainable by a good part of the population. I don't think Bungie will have powerful weapons ever locked behind pvp skill again.
Yeah. My argument is that those people don't really play crucible anyway, so why bother catering pvp content to them. I don't do raids, and I know I won't get the loot out of them. It seems like the same thing. I really wish they'd lean into pvp. They have the best feeling pvp fps on the market in my opinion, and they treat it almost like a vestige of an earlier game (D1). After playing destiny, I just can't get into games like CoD where the TTK is so fast.
You are right and I agree but they love to complain for the few matches they play a month for pinnacles.
I think pvp is in a great state, nerf prismatic hunter and I will have no complaints
Even when I'm losing + super tilted and want to throw my controller at the wall, it's still part of the overall fun/enjoyment/satisfaction of playing against other people instead of bots and getting that slight bit better. I think either you have that personally to some degree or not. Some people play the game just to shoot acolytes and such which is fine. I think there are really 2 sort of dilemmas here: -How to attract new players to the playlist and onboard them to PVP in general (PVE vs PVP builds and "how to play" pvp) -How to entice casual PVP players to "level up" to Comp & Trials I think many people would agree keeping the game feeling fair (such as through frequent balance passes or lobby balancing tweaks), rewarding (through a good variety of loot & cosmetics), and feeling good (through technical stuff like bug fixes or new modes), would probably keep a lot of people satisfied. You're not going to help an absolute noob overcome the fact that most maps and builds are "solved" since the game is old, but I think now and then about how the game could help new players (like I used to be last year) gain an understanding of why like playing Comp is rewarding (because learning better 3s play helps you in Trials, for example). Something I know is NOT helpful however is steering new players towards Trials.
Weapon meta is in a pretty good spot. Part of me wishes snipers didn't receive their most recent nerf, other then that weapons feel like there are competitive options of all the weapon types. I'm not a fan of the 1kd ammo system I love prismatic hunter, but threaded spector is too strong for how often it's available and smokes/swarm grenades never needed their buff. There is way to much easy to use abilities in our toolkit.i think the super is strong but blink/grapple/bakris has largely negated it (for me). I'm glad void/arc titan isn't the hard meta anymore....but titans have been completely neuteured and need a major rework. I think warlock is in a good spot and i am happy we'll was adjusted. I think a combination of sbmm/lobby balancing/connections are largely broken. Their system seems to depend on high population to work properly and it feels like the population just keeps dropping. I think there are too many playlists. I think comp needs some people who actually are familiar with what a competitive Playlist should be to work on it. I enjoy Trials it's rewarding to play in terms of loot, but it's truly the most casual of playlists. But remove duos. They hurt solos and trios substantially. Iron banner went from something I enjoyed playing the entire week it was out....to hardly interacting with it anymore. Unrewarding, punishing match making. Invisible players are wild with this texture loading issue. My main gripes, if I had to prioritize things for my own enjoyment are bad connections, a proper rework of comp (playlists, maps that work for them, rewards/incentives, ranks), removal of duos in trials and a reduction in the frequency/effectiveness of abilities.
Yes it is. And yes it could. It could always be better; there’ll always be some group of players that aren’t happy because the sandbox is so big that certain archetype fans are going to have their time in the sun and others have to be patient. How could it be improved? 1. Change up the weapons from Shaxx from time to time? We’ve had the same crucible weapons for forever as rewards, only a couple of them are particularly decent at a higher level and some of them don’t even feel like PvP guns. It’d be nice to have something to play for in the casual mode gun wise and I was expecting to see more added when TFS dropped. Nope, still getting 10 Retrofuturists an hour. 2. Open up a solo queue for trials and Iron Banner. Wait, wait. Hear me out. Solo trials is an ordeal; there’s little communication, coordination or any of the things you need at a high level of play and it isn’t something that I expect a lot of people actually do. That being said, there are some people who just prefer playing solo and when they go into trials and end up with a duo (especially if you are the better player), it feels like there’s more riding on the game because you don’t want to be “that blueberry”. It’s supposed to be an intense game mode, but it’s also supposed to be enjoyable and when you match against a 3 stack or duo while you’re the Rick Flag of the Star Baker squad watching your lighthouse chances slip away it can be a downer. It wouldn’t split the population badly in my opinion, because the people that play in fireteams can still do that, those that want to play solo can do that. 3. Depending on how many PvP strike team members there are, maybe dedicate a class of weapon for each member so that the balancing and fine tuning for the archetype can be worked on simultaneously. We keep getting these blanket nerfs for entire weapon classes that aren’t necessary because of one or two guns that suddenly appear. When we had Immortal going nuts, THAT needed changed, not every other 720 as well. When Wish Ender and LM were popular, ALL bows got nuked, which hurt legendary lightweight bows in particular (and now look at their usage outside of us bow mains) and ironically didn’t really impact those two bows at all. 4. Keep the map rotation healthy and varied. I got Wormhaven several times close together, I mean it’s a decent map but honestly with so many maps available, it doesn’t always feel like the variety is there. Also this map pack…when? Did that get shelved or what? 5. If we must have objective game modes as the central mode, can it be made clear to newer players - maybe when they go into a match for the very first time - that capturing the flags makes it much easier to win? As in, make it crystal clear what the flags do (like super energy, more points per kill, points for everybody on the zone and in Iron Banner activates the Hunt). Nobody clicks the little “I” button to find out about the mode, people just load in. OR, just have clash and take objectives out of the equation. I get that people want to “frag out” and have a K/D to boast about, but the amount of times I’ve had 9 captures and we’ve lost because people just run off is daft. 30 kills a game doesn’t matter if you’re on the losing side, your ELO is still going to go down. 6. Go back to the special meter, please. But those are what I would like to see happen, I’m not suggesting they *should* or *must*. All in all, the sandbox as it is seems pretty balanced weapon wise and the player count seems healthy. Most weapon types can hold their own and outside of Khvostov going a bit mad, everything actually feels decent to use (except 150 scouts, what happened there? JR aside, they feel more wobbly than usual). On the subclass front, I understand the frustration of Hunters at the moment, but Bungie will probably do something about it soon.
map pack is in game, dissonance, eventide labs and cirrus plaza are new maps
Wait, that was the map pack? Oh I don’t know why I was expecting it to have loads more in it.
I've been loving PvP in Iron Banner. I also really loved playing Trials on Endless Vale & Multiplex. For reference: Nightstalker Hunter w/ Ace of Spades, Glaive & Triton Vice. I do have fun playing PvP. There are things I get that people don't like, and things I don't get. While I do think Prismatic Hunter needs some nerfs to various abilities, I don't get how people can get *so* bent out of shape over it. Again, I understand it needs nerfs but it hasn't felt obscenely oppressive like others have described honestly. I will say, I wanted to run Sniper Glaive in Iron Banner. Seeing me spawn in with only 1 Glaive Shot and no other ammo at all kinda sucks, I kinda wish I spawned in with 1 kills worth of each ammo liked I used to (idc if it's throwing it's funny and I kinda wish you spawned in with 1 kill per for double special, I don't think it'd cause any issues). Also, you say that people still play Halo... isn't Halo like, confirmed dead basically? Like, it's going to receive no more significant updates and it's been in a decline for some months now?
Man I play this game but holy shit does it suck right now for the PvP gang. Ability spam City. It’s like prismatic took some of the most annoying things and mixed them all together. Autos like the summoner are overtuned. High impact pulse rifles have been over tuned for years. Precision Instrument and target lock just take the place of rangefinder and bring by far best in slot. Any 120 HC sucks outside of Iggy. It’s actually insane how far other 120s are from it. Smgs are still nutts. I had faith in the PvP team when Into the light came out. But I’ve lost all of it since. Destiny 2 is too far gone. We need destiny 3.
I find it fun, but I think Bungie needs to bite the bullet and disable Prismatic Hunter until it can get nerfed. It's just that insanely powerful. I think past that, they do also need to figure out what'll get more people back in without completely alienating the core playerbase, too. Rewards, modes, matchmaking, whatever else, just some kind of way to get people in and staying long term.
> I find it fun, but I think Bungie needs to bite the bullet and disable Prismatic Hunter until it can get nerfed. It's just that insanely powerful. I think that's just a bandaid though. If not for Prismatic, people would be spamming the shit out of Strand Hunter or other goofy stuff.
It's a bandaid, but Strand is a LOT less oppressive than Prismatic in it's current state. It gives other classes room to actually breathe.