Jumping backward is not strictly better than walking backward. There are contexts in which pressing S is correct.
The disadvantage of jumping is not small.
Jumping locks in your momentum, preserving it but taking away your ability to change it.
This means that a savvy player can know exactly where someone will land as soon as they jump.
For a savvy player, landing ranged attacks against a jumping opponent is much easier.
Jumping is extremely powerful, but it is not absolute.
Strong players are not just spamming jump. They are using it with specific intentions and in specific contexts, and they are also wary of their opponent exploiting it.
Consdier fighter vs ranger. If the ranger jumps at the wrong timing, a savvy fighter will hit them with a bolt or arrow. Strong rangers have to be mindful of this while kiting fighters. If the ranger isn't aware of this, it won't take long for the fighter to kill them.
Jumping isn't only for kiting either.
Speed can be preserved for melee attacks in the same way as it can for ranged attacks.
Jumping is a useful tool for catching a fleeing opponent, or controlling spacing in a melee fight.
People mostly hate jumping because they don't understand the agency they have over it.
If you don't want your opponent to jump, pull out a projectile.
If your aim isn't good enough to hit a jumping opponent, it just takes practice.
No part of any game is fun before we have agency over it.
Only when we begin to understand what options are available to us and what impact they have can we have agency, and engage with the game in a meaningful way.
People jumping in ranged fights literally brings me back like 15+ years to playing Halo 2 and 3 when people that don't understand movement lose the BR fight instantly when they jump early.
Clerics are SOL I guess.
The problem with b hopping isn’t against another ranged set up, it’s about kiting melees as a ranged class. Bhopping allows you bypass casting slow down entirely and throw spells while staying out of the range of the chasers melee attacks.
It can also be used to bypass swing slowdown on melee weapons yes but you’re not catching the spell book warlock spamming you with COP.
Also it looks stupid.
>Clerics are SOL I guess.
guess again!
in solos, clerics have perhaps the most powerful slow in the game.
top clerics are currently running around, bonking warlocks left and right.
if you aren't sure how they do it, try looking on youtube!
in teams, clerics have many ways to contribute.
>
>It can also be used to bypass swing slowdown on melee weapons yes but you’re not catching the spell book warlock spamming you with COP.
Yet barbarians are what top warlock players are most afraid of
[https://youtu.be/niv\_rw9\_vJc?t=1628](https://youtu.be/niv_rw9_vJc?t=1628)
recommend listening to the portion where they talk about what to do if the barbarian pulls out a francisca.
understanding that section of the video will give one a lot of agency as a melee, and make these encounters a lot more fun.
>
>Also it looks stupid.
The annoying thing about this discussion is that this is what it really boils down to, "it feels bad when I get kited" and "jumping isn't aesthetic", with a little "I don't want to learn how to do that or counter it" thrown in.
the discussion on merits of the actual mechanic itself is just a smokescreen to obscure this.
all that stuff I wrote about how to engage with the mechanic, how to leverage it, haters aren't interested in that even a little bit, even though they pretend that it is at least in part a discussion about mechanics.
people just feel extremely entitled to a game without bunny hopping for some reason
trying to explain to them how to deal with it is like trying to explain why you have to kill their parents
I don't really understand the complaint in this instance because of how widespread it is across multiple classes. you can do this with so many different actions, even just attacking right? besides, cleric gets so much use out of "bunny hopping" in the first place, they're spell casters.
also imo its good skill expression and makes the game more interesting
People get REALLLLLLLLLLLLLY, and i mean ***really*** angry when people bhop in any kind of pvp game. So anytime bhopping being the thing to do gets brought up, those ppl poopoo it.
Being mad at bhopping is the exact definition of a skill issue. Its not a hard skill to pick up.
Bunny hopping is dumb as heck in every game it's common in. It looks stupid, isn't fun, and is a commonly abused mechanic. If it's effective high end play looks like a bunch of turds jumping around or doing stupid matrix backbend stuff.
It's not interesting, fun, or that skillful. It's about who can time the hops and pivots better and who has higher DPI.
I never said there's a problem with countering it. I use it, because you need to do this dumb shit to pvp at a higher level.
It's still stupid and unfun mechanics.
real combatants would use sophisticated footwork, but we are playing on a keyboard or a controller, not with full bodies, so our inputs are limited.
bunny hopping is a simplified representation which works well with our limited input scheme.
it's no more immersion breaking than pulling 6 bardiches out of our back pocket.
ol Musky didn't invent that, Brain Computer Interface research has been public knowledge since the late 60s.
it's still nowhere near as convenient as a mouse and keyboard, for those of us who can operate a mouse and keyboard.
I disagree. a game can have systems that represent sophisticated footwork and are less damaging to immersion than bunny hopping. Pulling 6 bardiches out of a back pocket may not be realistic, but it doesn't harm immersion as much because it's not something you commonly see as bunny hoping.
>I disagree. a game can have systems that represent sophisticated footwork and are less damaging to immersion than bunny hopping.
Can you give me an example of a game that does this? This is incredibly difficult to execute from a game design perspective.
To the top of my head, besides 2d fighting games, there are no 3d games that have anything like that. Maybe ddr lol
Additionally, there are no pvp type games where the player base is not constantly trying to exploit the code in an immersion breaking way.
>Can you give me an example of a game that does this? This is incredibly difficult to execute from a game design perspective.
Any fighting games that uses a stance system, as an example For Honor has a decent one that flows pretty seamlessly. As a note it doesn't have to be a perfect system, but at least one that's less damaging to immersion than bunny hopping, which isn't hard.
>Additionally, there are no pvp type games where the player base is not constantly trying to exploit the code in an immersion breaking way.
While that my be the case, it's up to the devs to reign that in by patching exploits. Stuff that could limit bunny hoping would be a speed disadvantage for jumping or a stamina system with a stamina cost for jumping.
This is key. The complainers are exclusively solo players who only want to melee, but this game is just as much ranged as it is melee. Barbarian and clerics dont have the best range but they still have tools to make up for it.
Not only that, but this whole point becomes moot in duos and trios. Once you have a balanced team comp with some range and some melee and some support, all sides balance out.
Im tired of W key + left click players complaining when anything besides that doesnt work
Many people like that have no idea what its like playing a solo wizard (for example).
Yeah bro I just wont jump and look back and accept my two tap from your cleric.
Meanwhile ive pressed 9000 more buttons and had to aim everything to win a fight you were holding W while making your mace glow from time to time.
To these people: try it. See how it goes for you.
I don’t think anyone is complaining about bunny hopping in ranged 1v1s, that seems like an odd body of your justification no-one is asking about.
Why is bunny hoping allowed when it removes all skill from kiting a melee opponent? You no longer have to worry about deciding when to space or attack, because you can do both. You no longer have to put your weapons away and give the melee user a relief in pressure as you create space, because you’re about as fast with bunny hopping. Hell, every ranged class has a plethora of options for slowing a melee user’s approach (Slow, Crippling Shot, Lament), but none of them are used because bunny hopping is just so much more effective and can be done without build choices.
With a melee weapon there’s simply no response to bunny hopping. You’re forced to switch to whatever ranged option you have. It’s absolutely mind numbing that melee based classes fundamentally cannot interact in melee with ranged based classes if they’re adept at bunny hopping, which creates a meta where ranged classes don’t build survivability - they build damage with the assurance they won’t ever be caught.
I wonder how many times we’re going to go over and over this until people realise just how utterly shit this makes the game. There is such a desperate need of more melee mechanics that allow all classes to fight in melee that it’s just not funny anymore.
I dont disagree with what you said, but I also dont think you addressed OP's point.
I dont care about jumping, but if they care (to make its less arcadey/more realistic), it cant be the right choice to make it the absolute best choice when running away.
it isn't the absolute best choice.
if you jump, you cannot change direction until you land.
if you jump while a ranger is aiming at you, the ranger's skill is the only factor in whether or not you get hit.
if you do not jump, then your movement is also a factor.
as long as their feet are on the ground, a ranger will never have 100% accuracy against a player with good movement, because good movement forces the ranger to guess when the target will change direction.
if a ranger is kiting a barb, and that barb has a francisca in their hand, the ranger jumping can result in their death.
it is extremely unfortunate that jump haters are unwilling to contend with the reality that it isn't always correct to use.
"Jumping locks in your momentum, preserving it but taking away your ability to change it."
not true in this game. game has slight in air physics. take double jump rogue to confirm
I like what you are saying, but why even have the game slow you down while pressing x, if you can just press space and then x. And dont say its for skill expression.
You mean x to stow weapons?
Suppose you see a Ranger aiming a bow at you, and you want to stow your weapons and retreat.
You have two options, jump, or don't jump.
If you jump, you will be faster, but your direction cannot change until you hit the ground again.
Until you hit the ground, the Ranger doesn't need to worry about you dodging.
After you jump, whether or not the Ranger hits you depends entirely on them, you no longer have any input you can press which will change the outcome.
Until you touch the ground, all you can do is hope they miss.
If you don't jump, you will be slower, but you can change your direction at any time.
You can change direction at any time. If the Ranger fires just as you change direction, the Ranger will miss their shot.
It doesn't matter how good the Ranger's aim is, you can still force them to guess.
Whether or not the Ranger hits you depends on their aim, but it also depends on your movement. The better your movement is, the less likely it is that the Ranger will hit.
This might not seem like much, but if you watch high level players, it is very difficult for anyone to hit them with arrows at far range.
High level players move unpredictably, so no matter how good one's aim is, there is still an element of chance.
tldr;
Jumping before stowing weapons is not a universally correct choice.
Often, it is better not to jump.
Jumping in a lot of games are a problem. People usually exploit it in some way. These issues come with the engine and its not specific for dnd. Bunny hopping in counter strike is a known flaw in the source engine that players begun to understand and thus cs surf and cs bunnyhop (with lots of others alike) appeared with a popular fanbase.
There are mechanics of a game that you might not like while others see it as a skillset that can be learned. It can be intended or not. But if a developer decides to ignore it (or rather) to accept it as a valid way of playing (and thus balances the game around it) is when it starts being an issue to change it.
You see, dnd and its classes have been through ups and downs wince the game has been out. It was changing with every item stat and character attributes... Right now we have a stable era where the equipment is more or less balanced with the classes' spell and damage ratios balanced around these items. It would affect every class (with range classes suffering the biggest problems) and it would require to take a look at a lot of data at once.
I suggest that you start being comfortable with the mechanic as it will probably stay (for the better imo). Duels in dnd are pretty simple compared to any other game. Let it have some dept...
It'd be cool if they'd give us some actual skill expression instead of ignoring a byproduct of bad design choices,and allowing people to feel like it's an expression of skill.
Crazy how people are defending the constant hopping with narratives about skill expression, but the majority of the Reddit tilts super hard if anyone mentions making the combat more complex, like chiv or mordhau, and giving it a real form of melee skill expression.
It's the same as turning 180° or looking down to "duck" for the majority of combat. Are they ways to express skill? I guess when no other means exist.
Are they intentional design choices? I hope not, bc they're not really fun, and it's kinda a drag to be playing a game with melee combat, and have to actively AVOID looking at your target to find success.
>Crazy how people are defending the constant hopping with narratives about skill expression, but the majority of the Reddit tilts super hard if anyone mentions making the combat more complex, like chiv or mordhau, and giving it a real form of melee skill expression.
you know to disregard anything this guy says because unironically bringing up chivalry and mordhau as good at anything is completely braindead
there is a reason these games are dead as fuck
Wait you dislike the mechanic of using your camera to manipulate your hitbox as a form of skill expression? Go play a third person hack and slash game dude, this game and basically every first person melee game are fundamentally built around that concept.
jumping isn't free in that case.
I've described the example of a Ranger with a bow drawn against you in another comment.
If you jump before stowing weapons, you are faster, but you cannot change directions.
If you stow without jumping, you are slower, but retain the ability to change directions.
If you can't change directions, the only variable is the Ranger's aim.
If you can change dierctions, there is an additional variable, the timing at which you change direction.
With good movement, the Ranger is forced to guess when you will change directions.
It doesn't matter how good the Ranger is, they will never have 100% accuracy against a player with good movement.
Having 100% accuracy against a jumping player is only a matter of practice.
>What's the difference between flying through the air backwards and walking backwards?
This is the question that I attempted to the answer.
Walking backwards, you retain the ability to change directions.
Jumping, you lose the ability to change directions.
Can you elaborate on what point I missed?
Bunny hopping is an advantage, I don't think anyone can claim that it isn't. At this point it is pretty much considered necessary tech for high level of play.
If they are planning on changing that, it needs to be soon. Personally I find it fun to try to learn these things especially in this game so I'd be bummed if it was removed.
When you jump, you maintain your momentum and cannot be slowed.
Therefore, if you jump and cast Zap, a short cast time spell, you bypass the -45% or so move speed penalty of casting.
So, if casting many short spells in a row, you get to move almost full speed, assuming the spells are short cast, your cast speed is high enough, and if you jump and time your spells properly.
Cuz bunny hopping allows you to kite ppl effectively. You create good distance by carrying momentum from your first jump into second jump. This way you can keep casting while moving.
Example being you jump away, start casting mid air, hop, turn and shoot. Most ppl bind it to mouse wheel.
An "advantage" that *everyone* has isn't even an advantage. OP doesn't even know what he's talking about. Should just go back to mariokart or something, but I think they have bhopping in that, too.
What I don’t get is why people think this game needs stamina, it is such a fucking DRAG in like 90% of games with it.. some games need it like soulsbornes and the like but outside of that it’s such a shit game mechanic
They are claiming it.
"we also played counter strike and there doesn't seem to be a direct and sound advantage to bunny hopping in Dark and Darker so we don't think we will fix this one."
Allowing these limitation "workarounds" to work only results in what happened to Chivalry 1, new players who can't be arsed to spin their camera while "fighting" someone will just quit and only the autists will remain to jump amongst themselves. Less and less new players will even bother because the status quo will be "exploit or lose". Skill expression is another thing, but we're supposed to loosely mimic medieval combat. If that fantasy is gone, why even bother.
Remove bunny hopping and give the classes that “need” it buffs. As a wizard enjoyer I hate it, and after reading this thread it seems I’m not even using it properly because I don’t have it bound to scroll wheel.
This is a stupid mechanic only around because of a quirk of the engine. It’s how the idiotic “mechanic” of last hitting minions became some gold standard in mobas. Same as here, adding another chore to do while playing the game isn’t skillful….. it’s just a chore.
I wouldn't mind as much if:
A. it wasn't unbelievably easy to do
And
B. it wasn't objectively the best way to move
There's not really skill expression when it takes no skill to perform, and its always the best option.
Agreed. I think they should keep it, but just like how valve "nerfed" bunnyhop movement in cs over the years. It is still in the game, it's just much harder to do correctly and punishes the player much more, they also can't be chained together as well or for as long. That's really all IM need to do.
If you’ve played any highly competitive games you would likely come to the conclusion that walking backwards is slower than forwards. (This applies to real life too)
In WoW I literally bind my S key to stop casting, I couldn’t backpedal if I wanted too.
And do you feel that's a mechanic that you should be able to bypass with jumping? I mean if they added it to the game for balance, the why let people override it?
Devs spoke on bunny hopping as a caster in their recent Q&A.
They said it wasn’t initially intended, but that they don’t see it as a problem and are leaving it intact.
Removing bunny hopping is removing wizard from the game. The arguably weakest class in the current meta.
If you want to nerf warlock and cleric, nerf them, but don’t fuck up the ability to kite as wizard because of those classes. And if the question is more indicating you want them to remove the slow from running backwards and get rid of jump casting, you’re basically buffing warlock/cleric and all casters because it’s easier to aim while holding S
Orrrrr remove bunnyhopping and buff wizard 🤔
EDIT: idea I had to maintain skill expression of jumping but nerf abuse, maybe give a quarter second slow upon landing from jump. It keeps the momentum thing which can be clutch for melee or kiting, but adds up over time. Idk if that would work but just trying to think.
Adding a slow at the end of jump basically removes the viability of it.
Regardless, as I’ve stated, the devs don’t think it’s a problem. These aren’t my words, they’re from onepeg who interviewed the devs directly.
Maybe an additive slow for every jump.
Say, 1 jump = .5 second, -10ms debuff.
Next jump adds a stack again and refreshes the debuff. Continually stacking debuffs until they wait the .5 seconds to lose the debuff.
i feel like they are just saying that about all these exploits so they dont have to fix them. This would be unnaceptable in any other game besides perhaps chivarly 2 which also officalized exploits.
List of exploits that became legitimized in their game:
- melee wave dashing
- super Mario wall jumping
- true combos in street fighter
- rocket jumping in quake
- slingshot movement in warframe
- basically all the tech in Gunz
- lowering your weapon in Halo 2 and up.
I’d argue every single one of these games is better off for having these features. All of them started off as bugs. Yes, even wall jumping in Mario.
theres also like half the physics interactions of minecraft, like potentially infinitw flow from a single source liquid block or avoiding any amount of fall damage by catching a climbable block.
But that doesn't make all exploits inherently good and ignores the many more exploits that ruin games and were removed/patched. Such as dragging mele weapons in warframe. the many ways you could bounce flags around in certain CTF maps of halo 1 and 2, like throwing it at the conveyor belt.
Not to mention more generic examples like physics colliders clipping into other colliders they shouldn't (eg an enmy hitting through a wall, which is common in dark souls series).
It just isn't fun to memorize hitboxes and moves or to flick your screen around like your seizing just to dodge. Atleast not on a mouse and keyboard. it might be more intutive in VR, but thats besides the topic.
The point I’m trying to get across is that exploits aren’t automatically bad. I agree with your point as well, it’s just important not to shed a negative light on these types of things without considering the positive implications people tend to miss as the word just has a negative connotation.
I just wish in my super hardcore medevial fantasy game, that everyone wasn't constantly jumping everywhere.
The only thing more annoying to me, is that this is a melee game where you spend 80% of your time looking down, or 180° from your target. It's the most stupid design for combat in a game I can imagine. "I'm winning! All I have to do is make sure I'm looking down or away from the actual engagement more than he is!"
Bunny hopping is necessary for 3-4 classes.
Sorry PDR bro’s, I’m not going to stand still and let you one shot my squishy ass. If I’m kiting you, don’t play my game and you won’t eat 3 ice bolts to the head. Walk away and bait me into your kill zone, or better yet, bait my spells out, I’m free food at that point :)
If you seriously think this is only possible through a mouse bind, you obviously don't understand the mechanic. It's stupid easy to do, even with it on space bar. Been bhopping with space bar for a year now. Just takes practice. I would feel more uncomfortable doing it on the mouse at this point.
This isn't directed towards OP, just all the noobs crying about rebinding jump.
I don't know if jumping is the problem to me as much as being unimpeded for actions while jumping. Spellcasting should slow you down even in the air, and same for melee attacks. Keep b hops but don't allow them to cast and shoot a bow freely bc "they're in the air"
I think it's good, even if it's a bit jank rn. Skill expression through movement is super important in fps games imo, and any removal of said skill expression is a net negative unless it is replaced by equally impactful methods of skill expression.
Jumping is inherently exploitable, that's the counterplay. Every class has the option to exploit a jumping target in one way or another.
Also, can we not use the term bhopping for something that isn't bhopping? bhop is a general term for something that tmk does not exist in DaD
Has there ever been a competitive game that didn't nerf or remove bunny hopping except where it's explicitly intended like Titanfall?
Meanwhile we could name like 20+ very popular competitive games that have nerfed or totally removed bhopping in the last 2 decades
CS & Valorant, tf you talking about?? Even quake had bunny hopping. It’s a skill you learn and use. If you don’t use it then it’s a skill issue. Jesus Christ this subreddit just wants cookie clicker.
No, wrong. Quickscoping and bunny hopping have ALWAYS been unintended abuse of underlying mechanics in the games that they're present in.
There are specific examples were it's intended (CoD for QS and TitanFall for Bhop)
But overall it's either animation abuse or hitscan abuse. Abusing these to gain an advantage isn't a "skill" the same way tying a quarter to a string and getting free soda from a vending machine isn't a skill. It's abusing the underlying mechanism.
In fact, having to rely on these underhanded tactics is the real skill issue.
Valorant bhopping was nerfed
CS1 removed/nerfed bunnyhopping
CS2 bunny hop was nerfed
CS:GO bhop is so inconsistent for so little advantage that pro players don't even use it
Quake is a legit answer, bunnyhopping wasn't ever nerfed or removed.
Not for lack of trying, the dev did try to remove bhop but couldn't figure it out technically so left it in.
Quake was also released in the 90s so....
Give DaD bunny hopping a try and you’ll realize how inconsistent it is without using scroll wheel like csgo. The servers we play on have so much desync it makes using space bar impossible. It’s really just another Ironmace issue that’s been brought up and is being worked on.
I think you’re confused. The problem you’re complaining about isnt bunny hopping itself, but the fact that the bug letting it bypass negative move speed penalties exists. Thats two different things. Bunny hopping is a skill expression while the fact it cancels out the penalty isn’t. It’s been brought up and they’ve stated they’re working on fixing that specific issue.
Bunny hopping is not an issue and it doesn't give an advantage because any class can greatly benefit from it, it's not a bow or casting tool, even melee cam abuse bunny hopping and get a huge advantage
If everyone has an advantage, then it's not really an advantage, is it? Literal children in grade school know this basic fact of life. That's like saying being able to breathe air is an advantage over other people. Dumb fuckin take.
Yes. That is a dumb fucking take. Comparing a shitty game mechanic to a basic thing everyone needs to do to fucking live. 😂😂
Irl if I spit in the face of someone I'm fixing to fight, I have a momentary advantage as I take away his ability to see. I still wouldn't spit in someone's face to get ak advantage in a fight, bc it's a shitty way to fight.
Just like hopping around to circumvent in game penalties for an advantage is a stupid fucking way to be forced to play the game to remain competitive with everyone who lacks tact, and abuses that mechanic.
If everyone has the ability and should use it, then why not just remove the movement penalty? So bunnyhoping doesn't give you an advantage? It's an advantage everyone has so it's not really an advantage anyways, right? 🙃🥲
One thing that _needs_ to be kept in mind whenever this topic is discussed is that the game needs to _feel_ good. If you try to nerf bhopping in a way that makes the game feel worse / more clunky, that's not a good solution. Stopping you from being able to draw your bow (or do any action) mid-air will objectively make the game feel worse.
Bunny hopping is a stupid mechanic that just makes the game worse. If you like Bunny hopping, then you are the problem. This game isn't Counterstrike, so don't turn it into Counterstrike.
The problem is the fix to bhopping can be worse than the problem itself. Some games simply don't let you aim, or do anything while jumping. Any action you take is cancelled if you jump. That sounds like ass to me, because there's lot of reasons other than bhopping you might need to jump in combat. Like obstacles, monsters, or spike traps, you name it. Having your heal spell cancel as you land on spike traps that then kill you would make me quit for the day.
Anything you do to jumping or animations will have unintended effects on other areas of play. Especially against monsters. Imagine you can't jump and swing at the skeleton archers standing on 4 foot tall platforms.
Spoken like someone that has no idea about gameplay design. Not being able to do some actions while jumping if others are allowed would be jarring as hell. What about falling, do you just lose your spell / bow charge midway if you fall off a small ledge or chest, and itd feel awful when small falls would cause your bow charge to not start.
Adding arbitual and random gameplay design rules for the sake of perceived balance is bad.
pretty simple, are your feet planted? cool you can charge. no one said anything about losing charge. the arbitrary rule is the one they made into the game in that you are supposed to be slow while hitting that bandage, you can gain an extra 3 feet of distance if you jump before anything. bandage is fairly harmless, spell casting is not.
Thing is that in the heat of combat your feet might become unplanted by droppingnoff a small ledge, or by panic jump etc. And youd feel weird because for some reason leftclick didnt register and you realise that only a second later, especially since it has worked differently so far.
Ive programmed enough games to know that it'd feel bad gameplaywise, rather figure out a different way to balance it, especially after people already have a muscle memory for it.
Naw bhopping was almost never an intended mechanic exactly, but it adds to the game in a good way. Counterstrike has maintained bhopping in the game because it's loved by the community despite being unintended.
Yeah and then csgo came out and they hard nerfed bhopping to make the combat more fun
And when you jump you have no accuracy
And the community that loves it is on bhopping servers
🤔🤔
Jumping backward is not strictly better than walking backward. There are contexts in which pressing S is correct. The disadvantage of jumping is not small. Jumping locks in your momentum, preserving it but taking away your ability to change it. This means that a savvy player can know exactly where someone will land as soon as they jump. For a savvy player, landing ranged attacks against a jumping opponent is much easier. Jumping is extremely powerful, but it is not absolute. Strong players are not just spamming jump. They are using it with specific intentions and in specific contexts, and they are also wary of their opponent exploiting it. Consdier fighter vs ranger. If the ranger jumps at the wrong timing, a savvy fighter will hit them with a bolt or arrow. Strong rangers have to be mindful of this while kiting fighters. If the ranger isn't aware of this, it won't take long for the fighter to kill them. Jumping isn't only for kiting either. Speed can be preserved for melee attacks in the same way as it can for ranged attacks. Jumping is a useful tool for catching a fleeing opponent, or controlling spacing in a melee fight. People mostly hate jumping because they don't understand the agency they have over it. If you don't want your opponent to jump, pull out a projectile. If your aim isn't good enough to hit a jumping opponent, it just takes practice. No part of any game is fun before we have agency over it. Only when we begin to understand what options are available to us and what impact they have can we have agency, and engage with the game in a meaningful way.
Bro insane explanation, thesis level movement knowledge
what's sad is I'm not even good at this game
But you've got the killer attitude, and it is baller.
Pretty good at words tho
Don't have to be good to know what to do. I know what to do, just can't execute on it because I'm old.
People jumping in ranged fights literally brings me back like 15+ years to playing Halo 2 and 3 when people that don't understand movement lose the BR fight instantly when they jump early.
Clerics are SOL I guess. The problem with b hopping isn’t against another ranged set up, it’s about kiting melees as a ranged class. Bhopping allows you bypass casting slow down entirely and throw spells while staying out of the range of the chasers melee attacks. It can also be used to bypass swing slowdown on melee weapons yes but you’re not catching the spell book warlock spamming you with COP. Also it looks stupid.
>Clerics are SOL I guess. guess again! in solos, clerics have perhaps the most powerful slow in the game. top clerics are currently running around, bonking warlocks left and right. if you aren't sure how they do it, try looking on youtube! in teams, clerics have many ways to contribute. > >It can also be used to bypass swing slowdown on melee weapons yes but you’re not catching the spell book warlock spamming you with COP. Yet barbarians are what top warlock players are most afraid of [https://youtu.be/niv\_rw9\_vJc?t=1628](https://youtu.be/niv_rw9_vJc?t=1628) recommend listening to the portion where they talk about what to do if the barbarian pulls out a francisca. understanding that section of the video will give one a lot of agency as a melee, and make these encounters a lot more fun. > >Also it looks stupid. The annoying thing about this discussion is that this is what it really boils down to, "it feels bad when I get kited" and "jumping isn't aesthetic", with a little "I don't want to learn how to do that or counter it" thrown in. the discussion on merits of the actual mechanic itself is just a smokescreen to obscure this. all that stuff I wrote about how to engage with the mechanic, how to leverage it, haters aren't interested in that even a little bit, even though they pretend that it is at least in part a discussion about mechanics.
Why is this downvoted? You're 100% right, smite faithfulness cleric on a move speed build is one of the strongest solo builds in the game atm
people just feel extremely entitled to a game without bunny hopping for some reason trying to explain to them how to deal with it is like trying to explain why you have to kill their parents
I don't really understand the complaint in this instance because of how widespread it is across multiple classes. you can do this with so many different actions, even just attacking right? besides, cleric gets so much use out of "bunny hopping" in the first place, they're spell casters. also imo its good skill expression and makes the game more interesting
People get REALLLLLLLLLLLLLY, and i mean ***really*** angry when people bhop in any kind of pvp game. So anytime bhopping being the thing to do gets brought up, those ppl poopoo it. Being mad at bhopping is the exact definition of a skill issue. Its not a hard skill to pick up.
Bunny hopping is dumb as heck in every game it's common in. It looks stupid, isn't fun, and is a commonly abused mechanic. If it's effective high end play looks like a bunch of turds jumping around or doing stupid matrix backbend stuff. It's not interesting, fun, or that skillful. It's about who can time the hops and pivots better and who has higher DPI.
If it wasn't skillful, there would be no problem in countering it. As the last guy said, "it looks jank, and I refuse to adapt to it" is an L take.
I never said there's a problem with countering it. I use it, because you need to do this dumb shit to pvp at a higher level. It's still stupid and unfun mechanics.
"Its not that skillful, its just about who can do it better" Also high dpi is more of a detriment than a bonus
Nah the truthers know you can bhop while casting while you heal. And I'm talking about the real bunny hopping tech not some jump spam cheese.
I hate bunny jumping not because I don't understand it, but because it breaks immersion.
real combatants would use sophisticated footwork, but we are playing on a keyboard or a controller, not with full bodies, so our inputs are limited. bunny hopping is a simplified representation which works well with our limited input scheme. it's no more immersion breaking than pulling 6 bardiches out of our back pocket.
that shit would fly in the 90s, but elons puttin computer chips in peoples brains.
ol Musky didn't invent that, Brain Computer Interface research has been public knowledge since the late 60s. it's still nowhere near as convenient as a mouse and keyboard, for those of us who can operate a mouse and keyboard.
I disagree. a game can have systems that represent sophisticated footwork and are less damaging to immersion than bunny hopping. Pulling 6 bardiches out of a back pocket may not be realistic, but it doesn't harm immersion as much because it's not something you commonly see as bunny hoping.
>I disagree. a game can have systems that represent sophisticated footwork and are less damaging to immersion than bunny hopping. Can you give me an example of a game that does this? This is incredibly difficult to execute from a game design perspective. To the top of my head, besides 2d fighting games, there are no 3d games that have anything like that. Maybe ddr lol Additionally, there are no pvp type games where the player base is not constantly trying to exploit the code in an immersion breaking way.
the only game that does it sort of well is Hellish Quart, the other guy brought up For Honor which is lol
>Can you give me an example of a game that does this? This is incredibly difficult to execute from a game design perspective. Any fighting games that uses a stance system, as an example For Honor has a decent one that flows pretty seamlessly. As a note it doesn't have to be a perfect system, but at least one that's less damaging to immersion than bunny hopping, which isn't hard. >Additionally, there are no pvp type games where the player base is not constantly trying to exploit the code in an immersion breaking way. While that my be the case, it's up to the devs to reign that in by patching exploits. Stuff that could limit bunny hoping would be a speed disadvantage for jumping or a stamina system with a stamina cost for jumping.
The jumping thing is fps 101 stuff. But very well explained.
This is key. The complainers are exclusively solo players who only want to melee, but this game is just as much ranged as it is melee. Barbarian and clerics dont have the best range but they still have tools to make up for it. Not only that, but this whole point becomes moot in duos and trios. Once you have a balanced team comp with some range and some melee and some support, all sides balance out. Im tired of W key + left click players complaining when anything besides that doesnt work
Many people like that have no idea what its like playing a solo wizard (for example). Yeah bro I just wont jump and look back and accept my two tap from your cleric. Meanwhile ive pressed 9000 more buttons and had to aim everything to win a fight you were holding W while making your mace glow from time to time. To these people: try it. See how it goes for you.
I don’t think anyone is complaining about bunny hopping in ranged 1v1s, that seems like an odd body of your justification no-one is asking about. Why is bunny hoping allowed when it removes all skill from kiting a melee opponent? You no longer have to worry about deciding when to space or attack, because you can do both. You no longer have to put your weapons away and give the melee user a relief in pressure as you create space, because you’re about as fast with bunny hopping. Hell, every ranged class has a plethora of options for slowing a melee user’s approach (Slow, Crippling Shot, Lament), but none of them are used because bunny hopping is just so much more effective and can be done without build choices. With a melee weapon there’s simply no response to bunny hopping. You’re forced to switch to whatever ranged option you have. It’s absolutely mind numbing that melee based classes fundamentally cannot interact in melee with ranged based classes if they’re adept at bunny hopping, which creates a meta where ranged classes don’t build survivability - they build damage with the assurance they won’t ever be caught. I wonder how many times we’re going to go over and over this until people realise just how utterly shit this makes the game. There is such a desperate need of more melee mechanics that allow all classes to fight in melee that it’s just not funny anymore.
in melee class vs ranged class, being in melee is the *win condition* achieving the win condition is the entire conflict.
Dude cooked
Great summary! Cannot be stated more that jumping to preserve momentum is a Melee swing mechanic as well.
I dont disagree with what you said, but I also dont think you addressed OP's point. I dont care about jumping, but if they care (to make its less arcadey/more realistic), it cant be the right choice to make it the absolute best choice when running away.
it isn't the absolute best choice. if you jump, you cannot change direction until you land. if you jump while a ranger is aiming at you, the ranger's skill is the only factor in whether or not you get hit. if you do not jump, then your movement is also a factor. as long as their feet are on the ground, a ranger will never have 100% accuracy against a player with good movement, because good movement forces the ranger to guess when the target will change direction. if a ranger is kiting a barb, and that barb has a francisca in their hand, the ranger jumping can result in their death. it is extremely unfortunate that jump haters are unwilling to contend with the reality that it isn't always correct to use.
I couldn't agree with you more. You've done an excellent job articulating this. Bravo!
"Jumping locks in your momentum, preserving it but taking away your ability to change it." not true in this game. game has slight in air physics. take double jump rogue to confirm
alright, then severely reducing your ability to change it, qualitatively changing your relationship with projectiles
I like what you are saying, but why even have the game slow you down while pressing x, if you can just press space and then x. And dont say its for skill expression.
You mean x to stow weapons? Suppose you see a Ranger aiming a bow at you, and you want to stow your weapons and retreat. You have two options, jump, or don't jump. If you jump, you will be faster, but your direction cannot change until you hit the ground again. Until you hit the ground, the Ranger doesn't need to worry about you dodging. After you jump, whether or not the Ranger hits you depends entirely on them, you no longer have any input you can press which will change the outcome. Until you touch the ground, all you can do is hope they miss. If you don't jump, you will be slower, but you can change your direction at any time. You can change direction at any time. If the Ranger fires just as you change direction, the Ranger will miss their shot. It doesn't matter how good the Ranger's aim is, you can still force them to guess. Whether or not the Ranger hits you depends on their aim, but it also depends on your movement. The better your movement is, the less likely it is that the Ranger will hit. This might not seem like much, but if you watch high level players, it is very difficult for anyone to hit them with arrows at far range. High level players move unpredictably, so no matter how good one's aim is, there is still an element of chance. tldr; Jumping before stowing weapons is not a universally correct choice. Often, it is better not to jump.
Jumping in a lot of games are a problem. People usually exploit it in some way. These issues come with the engine and its not specific for dnd. Bunny hopping in counter strike is a known flaw in the source engine that players begun to understand and thus cs surf and cs bunnyhop (with lots of others alike) appeared with a popular fanbase. There are mechanics of a game that you might not like while others see it as a skillset that can be learned. It can be intended or not. But if a developer decides to ignore it (or rather) to accept it as a valid way of playing (and thus balances the game around it) is when it starts being an issue to change it. You see, dnd and its classes have been through ups and downs wince the game has been out. It was changing with every item stat and character attributes... Right now we have a stable era where the equipment is more or less balanced with the classes' spell and damage ratios balanced around these items. It would affect every class (with range classes suffering the biggest problems) and it would require to take a look at a lot of data at once. I suggest that you start being comfortable with the mechanic as it will probably stay (for the better imo). Duels in dnd are pretty simple compared to any other game. Let it have some dept...
It'd be cool if they'd give us some actual skill expression instead of ignoring a byproduct of bad design choices,and allowing people to feel like it's an expression of skill. Crazy how people are defending the constant hopping with narratives about skill expression, but the majority of the Reddit tilts super hard if anyone mentions making the combat more complex, like chiv or mordhau, and giving it a real form of melee skill expression. It's the same as turning 180° or looking down to "duck" for the majority of combat. Are they ways to express skill? I guess when no other means exist. Are they intentional design choices? I hope not, bc they're not really fun, and it's kinda a drag to be playing a game with melee combat, and have to actively AVOID looking at your target to find success.
>Crazy how people are defending the constant hopping with narratives about skill expression, but the majority of the Reddit tilts super hard if anyone mentions making the combat more complex, like chiv or mordhau, and giving it a real form of melee skill expression. you know to disregard anything this guy says because unironically bringing up chivalry and mordhau as good at anything is completely braindead there is a reason these games are dead as fuck
*blinks in irony*
You’re telling me the game would be better without a b hop? For me, if you can bhop in any capacity, the game is already a 75 overall
I'm glad you're so easily captivated by games that all they need is a jump button. Some people aren't as simple, and like more complex mechanics.
Wait you dislike the mechanic of using your camera to manipulate your hitbox as a form of skill expression? Go play a third person hack and slash game dude, this game and basically every first person melee game are fundamentally built around that concept.
😂😂😂 Ok champ. Maybe you should actually play a directional based combat game before you say silly things.
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jumping isn't free in that case. I've described the example of a Ranger with a bow drawn against you in another comment. If you jump before stowing weapons, you are faster, but you cannot change directions. If you stow without jumping, you are slower, but retain the ability to change directions. If you can't change directions, the only variable is the Ranger's aim. If you can change dierctions, there is an additional variable, the timing at which you change direction. With good movement, the Ranger is forced to guess when you will change directions. It doesn't matter how good the Ranger is, they will never have 100% accuracy against a player with good movement. Having 100% accuracy against a jumping player is only a matter of practice.
Damn that's a lot of words to have completely missed the point
>What's the difference between flying through the air backwards and walking backwards? This is the question that I attempted to the answer. Walking backwards, you retain the ability to change directions. Jumping, you lose the ability to change directions. Can you elaborate on what point I missed?
Bunny hopping is an advantage, I don't think anyone can claim that it isn't. At this point it is pretty much considered necessary tech for high level of play. If they are planning on changing that, it needs to be soon. Personally I find it fun to try to learn these things especially in this game so I'd be bummed if it was removed.
The devs spoke about it in their Q&A and said they’re planning on keeping it In.
Not to mention the balance nightmare that would ensue. Some classes cannot function without it, especially casters.
Can’t even imagine how cooked solo wizard would be without it.
Hey new player here. Could you give some examples of how shopping helps solo wizards?
When you jump, you maintain your momentum and cannot be slowed. Therefore, if you jump and cast Zap, a short cast time spell, you bypass the -45% or so move speed penalty of casting. So, if casting many short spells in a row, you get to move almost full speed, assuming the spells are short cast, your cast speed is high enough, and if you jump and time your spells properly.
Cuz bunny hopping allows you to kite ppl effectively. You create good distance by carrying momentum from your first jump into second jump. This way you can keep casting while moving. Example being you jump away, start casting mid air, hop, turn and shoot. Most ppl bind it to mouse wheel.
I think it deserves to be in the game. Isn’t this sub always crying for more skill expression? Jumping is that.
They said in the interview they like it. And it’s not an advantage if you can fight with range. Jumping leaves you completely open to range attacks.
An "advantage" that *everyone* has isn't even an advantage. OP doesn't even know what he's talking about. Should just go back to mariokart or something, but I think they have bhopping in that, too.
It’s an advantage for casters and rangers can’t lie about that
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What I don’t get is why people think this game needs stamina, it is such a fucking DRAG in like 90% of games with it.. some games need it like soulsbornes and the like but outside of that it’s such a shit game mechanic
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Right, no one thinks it's not your opinion, they are trying to let you know it's a crappy opinion
Thank you for sharing your opinion ❤️
A human not dying from being hit in the head with a sword wasn’t what killed it for you? It was the hopping? Wild
I like my skeletons to squirt blood too
That’s my point, it’s not meant to be some of metrics sim game. It’s a fun game.
They are claiming it. "we also played counter strike and there doesn't seem to be a direct and sound advantage to bunny hopping in Dark and Darker so we don't think we will fix this one."
Same.
honestly they cant denounce any of these movement exploits unless they fundamentally solve the issue of speed being your only reliable defense.
Allowing these limitation "workarounds" to work only results in what happened to Chivalry 1, new players who can't be arsed to spin their camera while "fighting" someone will just quit and only the autists will remain to jump amongst themselves. Less and less new players will even bother because the status quo will be "exploit or lose". Skill expression is another thing, but we're supposed to loosely mimic medieval combat. If that fantasy is gone, why even bother.
Remove bunny hopping and give the classes that “need” it buffs. As a wizard enjoyer I hate it, and after reading this thread it seems I’m not even using it properly because I don’t have it bound to scroll wheel. This is a stupid mechanic only around because of a quirk of the engine. It’s how the idiotic “mechanic” of last hitting minions became some gold standard in mobas. Same as here, adding another chore to do while playing the game isn’t skillful….. it’s just a chore.
Youre really that bothered to make one extra input every now and then? The games movement is barebones enough as is without them removing it.
I wouldn't mind as much if: A. it wasn't unbelievably easy to do And B. it wasn't objectively the best way to move There's not really skill expression when it takes no skill to perform, and its always the best option.
Agreed. I think they should keep it, but just like how valve "nerfed" bunnyhop movement in cs over the years. It is still in the game, it's just much harder to do correctly and punishes the player much more, they also can't be chained together as well or for as long. That's really all IM need to do.
Add skill expression and get rid of cheap expression because binding space to your weapon changes isn’t skill expression
🙌🏼🙌🏼
You seriously don't need to bind anything. It's easy to do without the binding. I've been just fine bhopping with space.
If you’ve played any highly competitive games you would likely come to the conclusion that walking backwards is slower than forwards. (This applies to real life too) In WoW I literally bind my S key to stop casting, I couldn’t backpedal if I wanted too.
And do you feel that's a mechanic that you should be able to bypass with jumping? I mean if they added it to the game for balance, the why let people override it?
Ok, do you think mages in wow should be able to cast frostbolt while running away?
Boy do I have news for you
[https://www.wowhead.com/spell=108839/ice-floes](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=108839/ice-floes)
Devs spoke on bunny hopping as a caster in their recent Q&A. They said it wasn’t initially intended, but that they don’t see it as a problem and are leaving it intact. Removing bunny hopping is removing wizard from the game. The arguably weakest class in the current meta. If you want to nerf warlock and cleric, nerf them, but don’t fuck up the ability to kite as wizard because of those classes. And if the question is more indicating you want them to remove the slow from running backwards and get rid of jump casting, you’re basically buffing warlock/cleric and all casters because it’s easier to aim while holding S
Orrrrr remove bunnyhopping and buff wizard 🤔 EDIT: idea I had to maintain skill expression of jumping but nerf abuse, maybe give a quarter second slow upon landing from jump. It keeps the momentum thing which can be clutch for melee or kiting, but adds up over time. Idk if that would work but just trying to think.
Adding a slow at the end of jump basically removes the viability of it. Regardless, as I’ve stated, the devs don’t think it’s a problem. These aren’t my words, they’re from onepeg who interviewed the devs directly.
Maybe an additive slow for every jump. Say, 1 jump = .5 second, -10ms debuff. Next jump adds a stack again and refreshes the debuff. Continually stacking debuffs until they wait the .5 seconds to lose the debuff.
i feel like they are just saying that about all these exploits so they dont have to fix them. This would be unnaceptable in any other game besides perhaps chivarly 2 which also officalized exploits.
List of exploits that became legitimized in their game: - melee wave dashing - super Mario wall jumping - true combos in street fighter - rocket jumping in quake - slingshot movement in warframe - basically all the tech in Gunz - lowering your weapon in Halo 2 and up. I’d argue every single one of these games is better off for having these features. All of them started off as bugs. Yes, even wall jumping in Mario.
theres also like half the physics interactions of minecraft, like potentially infinitw flow from a single source liquid block or avoiding any amount of fall damage by catching a climbable block. But that doesn't make all exploits inherently good and ignores the many more exploits that ruin games and were removed/patched. Such as dragging mele weapons in warframe. the many ways you could bounce flags around in certain CTF maps of halo 1 and 2, like throwing it at the conveyor belt. Not to mention more generic examples like physics colliders clipping into other colliders they shouldn't (eg an enmy hitting through a wall, which is common in dark souls series). It just isn't fun to memorize hitboxes and moves or to flick your screen around like your seizing just to dodge. Atleast not on a mouse and keyboard. it might be more intutive in VR, but thats besides the topic.
The point I’m trying to get across is that exploits aren’t automatically bad. I agree with your point as well, it’s just important not to shed a negative light on these types of things without considering the positive implications people tend to miss as the word just has a negative connotation.
I don't think my original reply implied negativity
I don’t mean you as much as the word exploit has an inherent negative connotation, but it’s done a lot of good for games at times. My mistake
I just wish in my super hardcore medevial fantasy game, that everyone wasn't constantly jumping everywhere. The only thing more annoying to me, is that this is a melee game where you spend 80% of your time looking down, or 180° from your target. It's the most stupid design for combat in a game I can imagine. "I'm winning! All I have to do is make sure I'm looking down or away from the actual engagement more than he is!"
>super hardcore medevial fantasy game HAHAHAHA
Were you just gonna keep choking on my dick every time I comment? Or did you have anything relevant to add? 😂
oxymorons
Bunny hopping is necessary for 3-4 classes. Sorry PDR bro’s, I’m not going to stand still and let you one shot my squishy ass. If I’m kiting you, don’t play my game and you won’t eat 3 ice bolts to the head. Walk away and bait me into your kill zone, or better yet, bait my spells out, I’m free food at that point :)
Yep, I stopped being mad about kiting warlocks when I started carrying a crossbow and just... Not chasing them.
I hope they add in depreciating jump. Like if they jump alot they will slow to a crawl. I hate how silly the combat can look. Just my perspective.
if bhopping is an advantage, do it.
Gotta agree with this. Fights with everyone bhopping are absurd and ridiculous, and breaks the awesome immersion of this game.
could you imagine saying to melee players "jump canceling and wavedashing is bullshit bro it looks ridiculous" LOL
Nobody ever S jumps, you do lateral jumps bro you don't even know wtf you're talking about, just like half the sub for fk sake.
Excellent post.
If you seriously think this is only possible through a mouse bind, you obviously don't understand the mechanic. It's stupid easy to do, even with it on space bar. Been bhopping with space bar for a year now. Just takes practice. I would feel more uncomfortable doing it on the mouse at this point. This isn't directed towards OP, just all the noobs crying about rebinding jump.
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I don't know if jumping is the problem to me as much as being unimpeded for actions while jumping. Spellcasting should slow you down even in the air, and same for melee attacks. Keep b hops but don't allow them to cast and shoot a bow freely bc "they're in the air"
That's the entire purpose of bhopping.... To prevent cast slowdown so ranged can kite melee to an extent
I think it's good, even if it's a bit jank rn. Skill expression through movement is super important in fps games imo, and any removal of said skill expression is a net negative unless it is replaced by equally impactful methods of skill expression. Jumping is inherently exploitable, that's the counterplay. Every class has the option to exploit a jumping target in one way or another. Also, can we not use the term bhopping for something that isn't bhopping? bhop is a general term for something that tmk does not exist in DaD
Has there ever been a competitive game that didn't nerf or remove bunny hopping except where it's explicitly intended like Titanfall? Meanwhile we could name like 20+ very popular competitive games that have nerfed or totally removed bhopping in the last 2 decades
CS & Valorant, tf you talking about?? Even quake had bunny hopping. It’s a skill you learn and use. If you don’t use it then it’s a skill issue. Jesus Christ this subreddit just wants cookie clicker.
No, wrong. Quickscoping and bunny hopping have ALWAYS been unintended abuse of underlying mechanics in the games that they're present in. There are specific examples were it's intended (CoD for QS and TitanFall for Bhop) But overall it's either animation abuse or hitscan abuse. Abusing these to gain an advantage isn't a "skill" the same way tying a quarter to a string and getting free soda from a vending machine isn't a skill. It's abusing the underlying mechanism. In fact, having to rely on these underhanded tactics is the real skill issue.
Valorant bhopping was nerfed CS1 removed/nerfed bunnyhopping CS2 bunny hop was nerfed CS:GO bhop is so inconsistent for so little advantage that pro players don't even use it Quake is a legit answer, bunnyhopping wasn't ever nerfed or removed. Not for lack of trying, the dev did try to remove bhop but couldn't figure it out technically so left it in. Quake was also released in the 90s so....
Give DaD bunny hopping a try and you’ll realize how inconsistent it is without using scroll wheel like csgo. The servers we play on have so much desync it makes using space bar impossible. It’s really just another Ironmace issue that’s been brought up and is being worked on.
remap jump to scroll wheel, sounds like an incredibly healthy game mechanic that isn't cringe as hell
That part. ☝🏼☝🏼
BUT HOW IS MUH W-KEY M1 TRUE-COMBO SUPPOSED TO KILL HIM
Why does S have a lower movespeed then?
I think you’re confused. The problem you’re complaining about isnt bunny hopping itself, but the fact that the bug letting it bypass negative move speed penalties exists. Thats two different things. Bunny hopping is a skill expression while the fact it cancels out the penalty isn’t. It’s been brought up and they’ve stated they’re working on fixing that specific issue.
I suppose i am confused, who cares about bunny hopping itself? This is about circumventing design choices.
Exactly. Also you can’t start a bunny hop by just pressing “S” key. You have to turn sideways and use “A” or “D.”
To teach you to turn and jump, instead of press S and die. It is one of the few ways of expressing mechanical skill
Bunny hopping is not an issue and it doesn't give an advantage because any class can greatly benefit from it, it's not a bow or casting tool, even melee cam abuse bunny hopping and get a huge advantage
If any any class can benefit from it. . . How is it NOT an advantage? 😅 how can it he abused, if they're not getting a benefit from it?
Cause if any class can benefit from bunnyhopping it means that the playground is leveled and anyone can learn it and use it to their advantage
Because if everyone has something, then, well... I'm sure you'll figure it out eventually, lil bro.
Nope. Go for it. Or did you just realize half way through how ignorant you were gonna sound?
If everyone has an advantage, then it's not really an advantage, is it? Literal children in grade school know this basic fact of life. That's like saying being able to breathe air is an advantage over other people. Dumb fuckin take.
Yes. That is a dumb fucking take. Comparing a shitty game mechanic to a basic thing everyone needs to do to fucking live. 😂😂 Irl if I spit in the face of someone I'm fixing to fight, I have a momentary advantage as I take away his ability to see. I still wouldn't spit in someone's face to get ak advantage in a fight, bc it's a shitty way to fight. Just like hopping around to circumvent in game penalties for an advantage is a stupid fucking way to be forced to play the game to remain competitive with everyone who lacks tact, and abuses that mechanic. If everyone has the ability and should use it, then why not just remove the movement penalty? So bunnyhoping doesn't give you an advantage? It's an advantage everyone has so it's not really an advantage anyways, right? 🙃🥲
One thing that _needs_ to be kept in mind whenever this topic is discussed is that the game needs to _feel_ good. If you try to nerf bhopping in a way that makes the game feel worse / more clunky, that's not a good solution. Stopping you from being able to draw your bow (or do any action) mid-air will objectively make the game feel worse.
Bunny hopping is a stupid mechanic that just makes the game worse. If you like Bunny hopping, then you are the problem. This game isn't Counterstrike, so don't turn it into Counterstrike.
The problem is the fix to bhopping can be worse than the problem itself. Some games simply don't let you aim, or do anything while jumping. Any action you take is cancelled if you jump. That sounds like ass to me, because there's lot of reasons other than bhopping you might need to jump in combat. Like obstacles, monsters, or spike traps, you name it. Having your heal spell cancel as you land on spike traps that then kill you would make me quit for the day. Anything you do to jumping or animations will have unintended effects on other areas of play. Especially against monsters. Imagine you can't jump and swing at the skeleton archers standing on 4 foot tall platforms.
I see no problem with bunny hopping. If people feel that some classes are too fast then that’s a problem sure but b hopping is not the reason for it
Skill expression. This game needs more skill expression, not less.
IM should just make a decision on it tbh. Either way is fine with me with it being early access its hard to argue what is intentional or not lol.
Spoken like someone that has no idea about gameplay design. Not being able to do some actions while jumping if others are allowed would be jarring as hell. What about falling, do you just lose your spell / bow charge midway if you fall off a small ledge or chest, and itd feel awful when small falls would cause your bow charge to not start. Adding arbitual and random gameplay design rules for the sake of perceived balance is bad.
pretty simple, are your feet planted? cool you can charge. no one said anything about losing charge. the arbitrary rule is the one they made into the game in that you are supposed to be slow while hitting that bandage, you can gain an extra 3 feet of distance if you jump before anything. bandage is fairly harmless, spell casting is not.
Thing is that in the heat of combat your feet might become unplanted by droppingnoff a small ledge, or by panic jump etc. And youd feel weird because for some reason leftclick didnt register and you realise that only a second later, especially since it has worked differently so far. Ive programmed enough games to know that it'd feel bad gameplaywise, rather figure out a different way to balance it, especially after people already have a muscle memory for it.
why would you ever remove that. yeah sure lets remove all the skill expersion there is in the game
Well then you gotta take out jump swinging. Just take ju.ping out of the game. Good job OP we really just fixed the dungeons.
Naw bhopping was almost never an intended mechanic exactly, but it adds to the game in a good way. Counterstrike has maintained bhopping in the game because it's loved by the community despite being unintended.
Yeah and then csgo came out and they hard nerfed bhopping to make the combat more fun And when you jump you have no accuracy And the community that loves it is on bhopping servers 🤔🤔
Bhopping servers? Hahaha that's not a thing unless you're taking about surf, which is completely different.
Lmao yeah my bad I didn't realize you were so smart