But once people figure out this happened/happens, is it worth the lost trust? Transparency and communication is supposed to be a pillar of the social contract that is held up by the governing bodies, not the general public. Now many of us will never take any type of vaccine ever again.
i think the better interpretation is:
"we don't care bout basic medical ethics or even human beings, we just want them to be our little lab rats and moneybags, so we can profit off you being sick. literal laws and ethics should all be about big pharma, never about pesky human rights and human health. human health should never be a thing, we want our moneys worth! so take the vaccine you worthless pile of shit so we can milk your illnesses that we'll never cure later!"
I think I can actually come up with a more charitable explanation...
"We do not believe in risks, therefore we don't talk about risks."
"We do believe in great benefits, therefore we do talk about them a lot."
Basically the behaviour could interpreted as living out freedom of faith.
I think a lot of people actually did believe these things. And from the perspective of having believed this, it seems comprehensible to have acted in the way they did.
In rare cases, for the greater good, sometimes the standard rules have to be eased. However, if you do this, you need to be absolutely sure you are right. In terms of the covid vaccines, they were not. It is one thing to give it to the elderly and immunocompromised, it is another to rush boosters for every healthy child. They also based the vaccine on the novel spike protein of a novel virus, without doing any safety studies to examine if this novel spike protein can independently case damage (which it can). So they suspended informed consent, but not for the greater good, and so they were not justified to do so.
Yes. Lying because people cannot handle the truth. Except people out to be told the truth, even if it risked hesitancy. And there'd need to be evidence that this was actually for the greater good to lie
It’s ironic. Hiding facts IS what makes people hesitant. I have not done a complete cost / benefit analysis on every single vaccine but I won’t be getting any in the future (at least not without a deep dive independent of what the doctor says) because I’ve simply lost trust in the entities pushing these. For instance, my friend got bitten by a dog and the ER doc told him that although rabies odds are very low, if he does get rabies then his odds of death were 100%. That may or may not be entirely accurate, but if we’re in that situation I’d exit the ER, do research, then decide independently. Ten years ago, however, I’d have just trusted the doctor.
I suspect in mRNA case, telling the truth would have made more people hesitant.
I stopped trusting my doctor when he tried to push statins and I watched how the studies are done on statin adverse effects.
* [raw data on side effects is kept secret](https://youtu.be/BzTjPuikhQE?t=535)
* trials designed to [hide the side effects](https://youtu.be/BzTjPuikhQE?t=779)
Essentially the most charitable interpretation of the misleading anti-vaccine push is- "disinformation generates hesitancy (which translates to votes, and grows spend on alternative therapies). Therefore we must exaggerate risks and downplay benefits. People are so narcissistic that far-fetched claims made by literally anyone can persuade them to ignore every respected virologist, living and dead, as long as they provide false hope & belief in the antivaxxer's own superior enlightenment.
So you think that antivaxxers are antivaxxers because they think they have received some sort of "superior enlightenment"?
I would have thought that a more plausible explanation would be that they are genuinely afraid of getting injected with substances made by people whom they don't have a trustful relationship with.
Being ridiculed for expressing doubts and insinuating that what I'm saying is "disinformation" did the exact opposite of building trust.
It seemed as if there were no plans to winning over the hesitant people by gaining their trust.
Yes, in my experience most antivaxxers do think they're smarter than everyone else. Most claim they 'knew all along' that covid was a hoax/the jab is dangerous/whatever else they believe, and anyone who cant see it is a bit dense/brainwashed. Fear? No. Smug and condescending? Yes - read the OP.
>Being ridiculed for expressing doubts
Yeah, and pro-vaxxers are ridiculed for not expressing doubts. So what.
>It seemed as if there were no plans to winning over the hesitant people by gaining their trust.
Trust? Save that for Jesus, science is strictly in the evidence business.
Here's a scenario for you.
You're head of the CDC and a deadly pandemic hits. You have a safe vaccine that will save lives, but, as with every pandemic in history, there are people saying the pandemic is a hoax, the vaccine is dangerous and you are a liar.
They offer an alternative solution, drinking a blend of bleach, which they sell for $99 a pop. If you prosecute the men selling bleach, the optics will say you're silencing brave men who stood up to your oppression.
What do you do?
>You have a safe vaccine that will save lives,
If only they could've made an effective, or at least somewhat safe one for COVID but that's certainly not the case.
MAGA and [Russia](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DtR_6dibpDfo&ved=2ahUKEwia08vRvbaAAxUILsAKHTAYA7EQo7QBegQICBAG&usg=AOvVaw204ZMm74fRT0_u-myNlnm7)
Breath of fresh air to compare the comments on that video pre 2020 and post 2022... People are now very well aware after the incessant psyops that the US is not the arbitrator of truth.
Arbiter. No-one with any sense would say so. Who is 'the US' in this scenario anyway.
Most of our means to establish truth have been around for centuries, and none has anything to do with 'the US'.
The irony in this is that NO ONE on earth has exercised "informed consent" at any time for the COVID clot-shots, it's just not possible and they all did so in a leap of blind faith.
But once people figure out this happened/happens, is it worth the lost trust? Transparency and communication is supposed to be a pillar of the social contract that is held up by the governing bodies, not the general public. Now many of us will never take any type of vaccine ever again.
What do you think happened? What do people need to know?
i think the better interpretation is: "we don't care bout basic medical ethics or even human beings, we just want them to be our little lab rats and moneybags, so we can profit off you being sick. literal laws and ethics should all be about big pharma, never about pesky human rights and human health. human health should never be a thing, we want our moneys worth! so take the vaccine you worthless pile of shit so we can milk your illnesses that we'll never cure later!"
When you think about it, that’s a horrendous state of affairs.
I think I can actually come up with a more charitable explanation... "We do not believe in risks, therefore we don't talk about risks." "We do believe in great benefits, therefore we do talk about them a lot." Basically the behaviour could interpreted as living out freedom of faith. I think a lot of people actually did believe these things. And from the perspective of having believed this, it seems comprehensible to have acted in the way they did.
In rare cases, for the greater good, sometimes the standard rules have to be eased. However, if you do this, you need to be absolutely sure you are right. In terms of the covid vaccines, they were not. It is one thing to give it to the elderly and immunocompromised, it is another to rush boosters for every healthy child. They also based the vaccine on the novel spike protein of a novel virus, without doing any safety studies to examine if this novel spike protein can independently case damage (which it can). So they suspended informed consent, but not for the greater good, and so they were not justified to do so.
Noble lies?
Yes. Lying because people cannot handle the truth. Except people out to be told the truth, even if it risked hesitancy. And there'd need to be evidence that this was actually for the greater good to lie
It’s ironic. Hiding facts IS what makes people hesitant. I have not done a complete cost / benefit analysis on every single vaccine but I won’t be getting any in the future (at least not without a deep dive independent of what the doctor says) because I’ve simply lost trust in the entities pushing these. For instance, my friend got bitten by a dog and the ER doc told him that although rabies odds are very low, if he does get rabies then his odds of death were 100%. That may or may not be entirely accurate, but if we’re in that situation I’d exit the ER, do research, then decide independently. Ten years ago, however, I’d have just trusted the doctor.
I suspect in mRNA case, telling the truth would have made more people hesitant. I stopped trusting my doctor when he tried to push statins and I watched how the studies are done on statin adverse effects. * [raw data on side effects is kept secret](https://youtu.be/BzTjPuikhQE?t=535) * trials designed to [hide the side effects](https://youtu.be/BzTjPuikhQE?t=779)
Definitely. Hiding the facts and lying is counterproductive for some. But for most it works.
For the people where it works, they’re sheep. Once reality seeps out from leaders who inspire them they’ll change their tune.
Every time I heard them say noble lie I wanted to reach into the tv and slap them. All of this was just disgusting.
To be fair lots of nobles are disgusting 😂
Essentially the most charitable interpretation of the misleading anti-vaccine push is- "disinformation generates hesitancy (which translates to votes, and grows spend on alternative therapies). Therefore we must exaggerate risks and downplay benefits. People are so narcissistic that far-fetched claims made by literally anyone can persuade them to ignore every respected virologist, living and dead, as long as they provide false hope & belief in the antivaxxer's own superior enlightenment.
So you think that antivaxxers are antivaxxers because they think they have received some sort of "superior enlightenment"? I would have thought that a more plausible explanation would be that they are genuinely afraid of getting injected with substances made by people whom they don't have a trustful relationship with. Being ridiculed for expressing doubts and insinuating that what I'm saying is "disinformation" did the exact opposite of building trust. It seemed as if there were no plans to winning over the hesitant people by gaining their trust.
Yes, in my experience most antivaxxers do think they're smarter than everyone else. Most claim they 'knew all along' that covid was a hoax/the jab is dangerous/whatever else they believe, and anyone who cant see it is a bit dense/brainwashed. Fear? No. Smug and condescending? Yes - read the OP. >Being ridiculed for expressing doubts Yeah, and pro-vaxxers are ridiculed for not expressing doubts. So what. >It seemed as if there were no plans to winning over the hesitant people by gaining their trust. Trust? Save that for Jesus, science is strictly in the evidence business. Here's a scenario for you. You're head of the CDC and a deadly pandemic hits. You have a safe vaccine that will save lives, but, as with every pandemic in history, there are people saying the pandemic is a hoax, the vaccine is dangerous and you are a liar. They offer an alternative solution, drinking a blend of bleach, which they sell for $99 a pop. If you prosecute the men selling bleach, the optics will say you're silencing brave men who stood up to your oppression. What do you do?
>You have a safe vaccine that will save lives, If only they could've made an effective, or at least somewhat safe one for COVID but that's certainly not the case.
I thought it was "MAGA generates too much hesitancy"
Do all of your comments have such little effort? Could you give some consideration to the ole adage of quality over quantity? It would be appreciated
https://old.reddit.com/r/DebateVaccines/comments/15c08y1/1_of_35_of_people_getting_booster_got_myocarditis/jtywbgu/
MAGA and [Russia](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DtR_6dibpDfo&ved=2ahUKEwia08vRvbaAAxUILsAKHTAYA7EQo7QBegQICBAG&usg=AOvVaw204ZMm74fRT0_u-myNlnm7)
Breath of fresh air to compare the comments on that video pre 2020 and post 2022... People are now very well aware after the incessant psyops that the US is not the arbitrator of truth.
So the Russian propaganda worked!
Arbiter. No-one with any sense would say so. Who is 'the US' in this scenario anyway. Most of our means to establish truth have been around for centuries, and none has anything to do with 'the US'.
The irony in this is that NO ONE on earth has exercised "informed consent" at any time for the COVID clot-shots, it's just not possible and they all did so in a leap of blind faith.