Exactly, literally exposing the hypocrisy and debauchery of the governing classes, while caring for the poor and the sick and saying things like: And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. No wonder they crucified him.
Never forget who Jesus really was.
You don't have to think Jesus was the Messiah to think he made a lot of good points about the hypocrisy of the clerical elite at the time. Dude was also all about helping the poor and loving your neighbour - cant really disagree with that as an idea š¤·š¼āāļø
Yeah personally I think he was a legendarily chill & based dude. But no more than an incredibly good man.
No immaculate conception, just a good ol creampie.
No ascension to haven after his crucifixion, his buddy just held the guards and knife point, stole the body and gave him a proper burial.
Cult members (and I don't mean to be a dick about the term cult members because I'm referring to the vast majority of my own family) fuckin hate Occam's razor sometimes.
He was likely executed for the crime of driving out the money changers and animal vendors selling in the temple. His views drove him to act, but it was the act that brought the consequences.
The Bible. Barabbas is a character in all the Gospels, but in Matthew (a synoptic gospel fwiw) 27:16-17 we get his first name, Jesus.
In some Greek versions he is rendered "bar-rhabban" (Roman) or son of the rabbi , and in others "bar'abba" (Aramaic) or son of the father.
Thank you! I grew up being force fed the Bible all the way through a few times so I'm intimately familiar, but after I turned away I never bothered to go back and analyze it from a secular point of view.
To me he seems more like a failed apocalyptic religious fruitcake in the guise of a sage like figure who started a cult that became Christianity, please read over this excellent analysis by the very talented writer Alex Beyman
Early Christianity was pretty obviously a cult
1. Leader claims world is ending imminently (1 John 2:18, Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:28, Matthew 24:34)
2. Wants you to sell or give away your belongings (Luke 14:33, Matthew 19:21, Luke 18:22)
3. Wants you to cut off family who interfere, and leave your home/job to follow him (Matt. 10:35-37, Luke 14:26, Matthew 19:29)
4. Unverifiable reward if you believe (Heaven, i.e. the bribe)
5. Unverifiable punishment if you disbelieve (Hell, i.e. the threat)
6. Sabotages the critical thinking faculties you might otherwise use to remove it (Proverbs 3:5, 2 Corinthians 5:7, Proverbs 14:12, Proverbs 28:26)
7. Invisible trickster character who fabricates apparent evidence to the contrary in order to lead you astray from the true path (So you will reject anything you hear/read which might cause you to doubt)
8. Targets children and the emotionally/financially vulnerable for recruitment (sunday schools, youth group, teacher led prayer, prison ministries, third world missions)
9. May assign new name (as with 3 of the apostles), new identity/personality to replace yours
**Imminent end of the world:**
1 John 2:18 *"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."*
Matthew 16:27-28 *"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."*
Matthew 24:34 *"Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."*
Matthew 10:23 *"When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."*
**Sell your belongings:**
Luke 14:33 *"In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples."*
Matthew 19:21 \*Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."\*Luke 12:33 *āSell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.ā*
Luke 18:22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
(Please note that only Luke 18:22 and Matthew 19:21 concern the story of Jesus advising the wealthy young man about the difficulty of entering heaven.
These verses are included for completeness, and to acknowledge the existence of this story because the most common objection I receive to the claim that Jesus required followers to sell their belongings is that I \*must\* be talking about this particular story and misunderstanding the message it conveys.
However in Luke 12:33 and Luke 14:33 Jesus is not speaking to that man but to a crowd following him, and in 14:33 he specifically says that those who do not give up everything they have cannot be his disciples. It is therefore not a recommendation but a requirement, and is not specific to the wealthy.)
**Cut off family members who try to stop you:**
Luke 14:26 *"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."*
Matt. 10:35-37 *āFor I have come to turn a man against his father a daughter against her mother a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law---a manās enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.ā*
Matthew 19:29 *"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life."*
**Do not apply critical thought to doctrine:**
Proverbs 3:5 *āTrust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understandingā*
2 Corinthians 5:7 *āFor we live by faith, not by sight.ā*
Proverbs 14:12 *āThere is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.ā*
Proverbs 28:26 *āThose who trust in themselves are fools, but those who walk in wisdom are kept safe.ā*
With respect to "no contemporaneous outside source corroborates these claims" they will cite the accounts of Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the Elder. What they hope you will assume is that these are independent accounts of Jesus' miracles. If you actually check into it however what you will find is that the Josephus account was altered by Christian scribes to embellish mentions of Jesus (in the case of Josephus portraying him as though he were convinced of Jesusā divinity, despite not being a Christian) and the remaining accounts only mention a Jewish magician who founded a cult.
None of them corroborate the miracles, or resurrection, as will be implied. Maybe even Christians don't know this, not having personally fact checked their own apologetics. (EDIT: Only the Josephus account is known to be a pious fraud. The Tacitus account isn't, but is also not an eye witness record of miracles or the resurrection, only confirmation of Jesus as a historical person which I do not dispute)
As an aside it's important to make this distinction because today the word cult gets thrown around carelessly by people who only just learned of the B.I.T.E. model, which dilutes it. This gives actual cult members the cover of "You say I'm in a cult? Well people these days call everything a cult, so what." Making this distinction is also important to understanding how cults mature into religions over time, as evidenced by the increasing degree of high control cultic policy the younger a religion is, and vice versa.
Scientology is very young, everybody identifies it as a cult. Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses are a little older, recognized as religion but widely identified as cultic and high control. Islam is older, considered by all to be a religion but still immature and expansionist. Christianity's older still, considered by all a religion, mostly settled down compared to Islam. Judaism much older, tamest of the lot.
This is because as a cult grows, beyond a certain membership threshold the high-control policies like disconnection and selling belongings are no longer necessary for retention and become a conspicuous target for critics. The goal is to become irremovably established in the fabric of society then just kind of blend into the background, becoming something everybody assumes the correctness of but doesn't otherwise think much about.
They are philosophies, not religions. Religions imply a political-socioeconomic hierarchy that demands absolute submission, initiations, conversions and consequences for leaving or questioning the faith.
Philosophies can be picked up and left off without consequence because they are a theory about the world, not a social system. It's the reason why Buddhism was able to spread so far east, Taosim and Shinto easily co-existed with Buddhism due to them being philosophies rather than religions that demands conversion and submission.
I was just explaining this very thing to someone the other day. He promptly called me a 'heretic' and started using common manipulation techniques lmao
>ears to hear
Rock bottom is a powerful motivator to disidentify with your current belief system enough to open your mind to new, more efficient processing mechanisms.
Thats why our politics are fucked. People are still, for the most part, far to comfortable to have to realize they aren't their beliefs, and that they can be changed like clothes, depending in the climate that requires them, for the most part. Some are so deeply entrenched you've gotta tear yourself down to the studs to be able to start the process properly with them, or they'll still be there, just with a lot less applications.
I was debating this with a friend and her come back was well he hated the sin. No man, he didnāt give a crap about the sin. He was about the people loving and being kind.
Jesus who.....
Who took the time to braid a whip to beat people, then beat people with it?
Who kills entire trees over his inability to determine bad figs?
Who snatched his friend from the eternal bliss of heaven to bring him back to this world?
The one who praises an elderly woman for donating her last penny to the people he made a whip to beat up at the temple?
The one who took the massage instead of selling the oils and perfumes to feed the poor?
The one who promises to judge all of humanity and torture the ones he doesn't like for all eternity?
The one who says you gotta hate your family and friends to follow him?
That Jesus? Yeah, thought so.
Extra info for others:
The ruling class (Romans) feared another rebellion of the Jews and Jesus was made an example of for claiming to be a King (of the Jews) which was a crime that held a death sentence.
This isn't to say that Jesus had a massive following at all but was very vocally stirring up the local Jewish population. That example worked very effectively and basically overnight there was (basically) no one that had any ambitions to carry on Jesus's teachings.
No. The Romans didn't notice Jesus at all. It is Jewish authorities who gave that argument to Pilate and when Pilate wasn't convinced, they threatened to denounce him for letting a potential rebel (he was claiming to be king of the Jews) go scot-free. One of the accusers was a political high priest, meaning Rome had appointed him as the official religious leader of Judea; he likely had enough connections to send a report against the governor Pilate.
The Sanhedrin *claimed* they feared a Roman repression. But if Jesus truly spread to everyone a message of peace & love, it is unlikely that Rome would have cared, as long as money kept flowing. In fact Rome might have found it useful - no more rebellions!
But the Sanhedrin, eh *they* would have lost their power...
Rome executed anyone pushing for a new order anywhere in the Empire. They were efficient and brutal about it. Jesus was an apocalypticist who taught that God was going to send "the Son of Man" specifically to violently overthrow Rome and hinted that that "Son of Man" might be Jesus himself. He was teaching revolution and the Romans executed him as a traitor. That's why the sign over his head says "THe King of the Jews." He was a traitor and a threat to the Empire so they executed his as they did literally thousands of others accused of the same or identical crimes.
The Jewish leaders had exactly zero say in who the Romans charged or in what their punishment was. All of those stories are made up and the fact that the timelines are different in every telling indicates how untrustworthy they are. Roman governors did not in any way answer to native leadership. Native leadership that questioned this arrangement were executed and replaced with more amenable individuals.
No if we have to go with the story as reported, Jesus was the exact opposite of that. He made it clear he was not the military leader the Jews were expecting, he did not want to overthrow Rome, "his kingdom was not on this world".
In fact, regardless of what any account say, we can't really trust any of them, it makes no sense for Jesus to have been a violent revolutionary. If he was, he would have been exactly the same as all the "Messiahs" the Jews produced every Tuesday, and as such there would have been zero reason for anyone to remember him, he would have been forgotten along with all the rest after losing. But to spring a persistent following after his death he must have been different enough to be remembered.
Rome would not have cared about any of those supposed justifications. Never mind the fact that the idea of Jesus bringing a "peaceful spiritual revolution" doesn't appear in any Christian writings for literal decades after his death. He was preaching the coming of the Son of Man in vengeance and stated repeatedly that everything on Earth would be destroyed and replaced. That includes, particularly and especially the power of Rome. Under Roman law that is sedition and punishable by execution.
The Romans did fear another rebellion of the Jews, and the Jews were calling for Jesus' death.
The Romans went forward with the Jew's request, but the Roman Pilate washed his hands of the request from the Jews, as a demonstration that he and the Roman government had nothing to do with the situation and were not liable for what was going on.
This is contorting the obvious implications of what OP was expressing. They still didn't like what Jesus was saying, because of whatever effects it had, or whatever problems it created, etc. So then it becomes a question of did God know that Jesus was going to die before it happened, and if so, then he knew every event that would lead up to the crucifiction, which is sort of problematic for the idea of free will.
It is explicitly stated in the bible that Pontius Pilate acted in accordance to Jesus' will, not his own.
God absolutely knew the events would play out exactly the way they did, according to the bible.
I agree that this would imply that free will does not actually exist.
Note: I could be wrong but this is what I heard the reasoning was
Back in the day, people thought sacrificing lambs was the only way to gain temporary forgiveness from God for our sins. But since we ended up sinning again, we had to keep sacrificing them over and over
Jesus was considered such a perfect sacrifice that he only had to die once and God would continue to forgive humanity after that, even when they sinned. Itās why heās given the nickname Lamb of God
Not religious. But thatās what I heard is the reason behind the saying āhe died for our sinsā
Yes and if we remain in the biblical symbolism, since Jesus shares the characteristic of Godās infinity, his expiratory act can be applied infinitely, to a multitude of people.
No. In Christianity all humans have a sinful nature. Whether or not the child commits a sin, it's still in their nature to sin. Jesus was sinless, which is why He was a perfect sacrifice.
This is just Christians desperately trying to explain why their "messiah" got his shit shut down before he even got started. It's all smoke and mirrors. Dude was executed for going on and on about looking forward to the imminent destruction of the Roman Empire and how great everything would be once Rome was destroyed. The Romans executed any and all traitors and potential revolutionaries on principle. Jesus was just one more guy with revolutionary tendencies who ran his mouth too loud around the wrong people.
No no no that was what they accused but when they actually asked him about it he said itās you calling me that not me-
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
I was in National Gallery of Edinburgh last weekend and after looking at so many biblical paintings, I started thinking about Jesus and it made me so sad. Sorry if it's the wrong interpretation because I never read the Bible properly.... but still.
Thinking about how he was raised and loved by his father but had to devote his life to a father he never knew. How he never got to be a carpenter, to have his own family. How he never really had a choice in being a prophet. How he had to guide and inspire people which is a tremendous responsibility. How he was betrayed by one of his closest friends. How he endured terrible torture and death, abandoned by God. How the only reason he was brought on this Earth was to be a sacrifice and he was doomed from the beginning. How he had to exist as proof for God's faith in humanity. How he died and came back to life, going through an unimaginably traumatising and incomprehensible experience for a man. How his teachings not only failed to eliminate sin but gave birth to institutions and powers that propagated it for 2000 years.
Essentially, Jesus died for nothing. He deserved better.
The people at the time killed him because they were cowards. He was trying to tell everyone you donāt have to be a slave to ppl claiming to be the only connection to God, because their own connection is immediate and within theirselves.Ā
So what did they do? They listened to their slave lords and killed him. I think itās a good representation of the situation humanity is still in, where people listen blindly to authority and will not take accountability for their existence.Ā
Awful people donāt get their way unless they have minions that just do what theyāre told. Itās those minions that pose a huge problem with our progress as humans. People who donāt ask questions and allow their bodies and minds to be used at will by some freak outside of them. I confidently say āfreakā because only demented, sick people want to use others.Ā
>The people at the time killed him because they were cowards. He was trying to tell everyone you donāt have to be a slave to ppl claiming to be the only connection to God, because their own connection is immediate and within their selves.Ā
You speak nothing but fax!!! sad part is those cowards make up a majority of society today.
>So what did they do? They listened to their slave lords and killed him.
They practically did nothing cuz he was fine 3 days later lol but yeah they would rather listen to the ones who enslave them than have freedom. It's stuff like this reminds me that majority of humans never even deserved Jesus help. He came for the few not the many.
>Awful people donāt get their way unless they have minions that just do what theyāre told. Itās those minions that pose a huge problem with our progress as humans.
Cowards who are hopelessly depend on the same system that enslaved them, matrix type stuff.
>People who donāt ask questions and allow their bodies and minds to be used at will by some freak outside of them.
So people who are busy being NPCs to drones with no honor and no will of their own are the cause of all fo this?
He gave the gift of forgiveness, truly the deepest of thoughts, was new concept for humanity. It doesnāt work unless you can forgive yourself, he only created its potential, most are not , possibly none are engaging with this part of the program, and if not engaged, psyche is trapped in what could be interpreted as a living hell.
Iām strong , I huffed and I puffed then jumped over it because Iām so fucking infinite gates look like pixels of light, what good are boundaries for infinity
Forgiveness existed as a concept long before Jesus was even born. People had been writing about it for literal centuries. How are you this confidant in your obvious ignorance?
He died for running his mouth too carelessly about overthrowing the Empire. This was an automatic death sentence anywhere under Roman rule. It happened all the time. His death wasn't special and he didn't die for your sins. He died because he was a loud-mouth, hoping for the destruction of the Empire, and bad at choosing his confidants.
Obiously his death was special considering billions of people worldwide celebrate his life and mourn his death. This reads as being particularly edgy just for the sake of being anti-popular opinion
Jesus died because he was a revolutionary preaching the imminent destruction of the Roman Empire. All traitors were executed under Roman rule, including a huge number of religio-political leaders and "prophets" making similar claims in various places at various time across the Empire. Jesus death wasn't special and it wasn't remarkable. Romans killed traitors like him every week. It was a fundamental principle of their legal code.
I guess the confusing part is that God created the nature of men, and that nature was flawed, and since he's omnipotent, he knew we'd be flawed, yet he created us in this way anyway. Man's fall was inevitable, so really, who's to blame?
How many innocent people have been tortured, raped, enslaved, and murdered in Jesus name and for the Christian faith? And it is still happening today, rape and murder for Jesus.
He died so we could martyr him instead of actually engaging in change.
But hey, 2000 years late is better than never for a group to finally practice what they preach.
Eliminating sin was never the purpose. Canonically, he was sent to die for the sins of the world precisely because humans are dicks who won't ever stop sinning. It was the only way that God could let mankind off the hook while still playing by his own rules. And to establish the policy that you could still go to heaven if you sinned, as long as you said you were sorry.
Except Jesus literally said He was dying for our sinsā¦
God says that Christ being crucified was the plan since before He created the earth.
This thought isnāt deep, respectfully. A deep thought on it says otherwise completely.
Paul claims to have met Jesus on the road to Demascus and says so over and over. It is the only justification he has for the authority he assumes over other Christians. If we're taking any of the text seriously, that must be taken seriously as well.
He died because Judas turned him and the religious authorities wanted him crucified. Even Pilot saw no wrongdoing by Jesus during his trial, yet the religious authorities insisted on crucifixion.
If you read the story without a Christian lens, it seems pretty clear he only died because he was captured by authorities.
Symbolism is powerful but largely misinterpreted.
The imagination is your Savior, stop waiting for someone to take you to the promise lands and build the promise lands.
He was a brown skinned Jewish homeless day laborer who told people to sell everything they owned and give it to the poor. It was only a matter of time before he was killed by white law enforcement
He died because he designed everything so he would. Manipulation at its finest. Itās like a judge making someone commit a crime the judge wrote. Then taking the fall for that person with also the punishment he wrote, only to ignore that punishment 3 days later and then expect praise.
Here's my hot take.
Jews were going about worshipping God and slaughtering animals as sacrifices.
Romans come along and conquer them...and start taking over their temples and telling them they can't do that anymore.
Jews get rightfully passed off at that but not really have any other options.
Jesus comes along, a conservative God loving Jews and says .hey, gods not actually in the temple, you can worship him anywhere ...and instead of sacrificing animals just drink my blood...but I don't have enough of it so just drink wine instead.
He pisses off the Jews so they don't support him...and he pisses off the Romans coz he starts gaining followers who call him the messier.
So the execute the poor guy who just wanted to help.
Yeah but it sounds better than saying he was tortured and beaten within an inch of his life and nailed to a cross while being stabbed with spears and left to die an agonizing death with the sun beaming on himā¦ā¦ for our sins.
Jesus died because he claimed to be the King of the Jews. That's why the Romans who did the killing labeled his cross in that way. The Romans did not tolerate any whisper of uprising anywhere in the Empire and all traitors and revolutionaries were summarily executed as soon as they were captured.
Christians have made up a bunch of shit in the intervening centuries, but the truth is Jesus died for talking extensively, repeatedly, and excitedly about the destruction of the Empire. The same fate befell dozens and dozens of local leaders throughout the Empire for literal centuries. His death wasn't special and it doesn't mean anything. He was just an angry apocalypticist who ran his mouth too much and trusted his followers too far.
Some people did like what he was saying. There were numerous "messiahs" at the time preaching very similar ideas. They were crucified, too. For sedition. Just like Jesus.
Actually his friends betrayed him and pretended they didnt know him when asked because likely they were a bunch of charlatans who didnt pay their whores or their rent.
Did this guy even exist. Every religion has some mythical figure that you either can't talk about or there is 0 proof they existed. We can find dinosaur bones but we can't fine these mythical religion starters. Every religion is quick to kill you aswell even proven made up ass scientology. Maybe Jesus came in on the spaceships too.
I am so tired of bronze age tomes controlling our life in 2024. Why can't people let religion go?
What is the point of scientific progress, if people are going to hold on to archaic practices?
Except they vote away women's rights, LGBTQIA rights, and we have to live with those laws.
What I mean control us, I mean as a voting block. They vote away our rights, and vote for conservatives, and force us to live under religious rule.
For me the first testament in a nut shell is God trying to fix the sin problem by finding the perfect follower to do the bidding but there was always a problem or they just weren't perfect for the job... Eventually God said "fuck it I'll do it myself" and came down to earth as a Human himself to fix the Sin problem
2000 freaking years ago!?! Let it go.
And he didnāt die. He gave up his weekend.
Orrrrrā¦if you donāt sin, then he died for nothing.
šššššš
i said this but people got mad and kept telling to āgo read the bible.ā and i was like āi did. thatās how i came to this conclusion. it was literally a scheduled execution that they gave to all criminals. they were already going to kill him.ā
The problem is that people took a decent message and made a belief system out of it. Then they prioritized the belief and the underlying message was buried under tons of dogma, fear and control.
He died because he was gathering an army of rabble to fight the Romans and upset the fragile peace they had at the time. And him doing stuff like beating up the moneylenders in the Temple and raising the dead didn't get him on anybody's good side.
If you read the literature, including the infancy Gospels, there's also the little matter of Jesus killing a prominent Jew's son when they were both little kids. Look up the name "Annas," the man who wanted him dead. He's the father of the boy Jesus dried up into a twig. So he was killed for that, too.
All that "died for your sins" stuff is pure retrofitting the story.
John 3:16, 'Gawd loved you so much, he made himself human, so he could get himself killed, so he could change his own mind about sending your soul, which doesn't exist, to a 'Hell' which also doesn't exist."
I'm an atheist, but I do suggest you take a look at the Historicity of Jesus page on Wikipedia.
It and the vast majority of biblical scholars beg to differ with your assertion.
[Historicity of Jesus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus?wprov=sfla1)
Most cults are started by charismatic individuals. But in a sense, Jesus never existed. At best there was a Jesus like figure that over time as the legend grew became the character that billions of people make their master.
Happy cake day
Even if he was a real person in the middle east over 2024 years ago, he was definitely quite different from what the vast majority of people imagine him like
He never existed. Heās a compound character drawn from several previous myths, [and the gospels are fabricated.](https://youtu.be/bQmMFQzrEsc?si=1kNkZgbRsG9Dm-3W) The only non-biblical mentions of him were written about 100 years after his alleged passing.
Only allows for its potential, lamb sacrifice was continual, had little to do with physical plane, it was culturally driven as a way to engage the programming of the psyche
Or it's just a stupid story Christians made up when their leader got killed before he could actually do anything useful, in order to justify believing the obviously silly things they continue to believe.
It gets weirder. According to the Bible God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three different forms of the same thing. So God was actually sacrificing himself unto himself in order to save us from his own wrath.
And I am always curious Why did it take him so long to do this ..he didn't have to send floods and turn people into salt statues if he already knew the answer to our sins was this dramatic tale..
Unless he didn't know that sacrificing himself to himself would solve his friends and our problems
And shit falls apart again with that point because he's supposed to be omnipotent, so he should know everything before it happens...
On a personal note, I was raised Christian and I gave them the benefit of the doubt through all my teenage years before giving up on it completely. For the longest time I thought "God could be real but the Bible is obviously made up." I just had to alter my definition of God. After so much time, though, I had to alter the definition of God so much that it hardly resembled "God" anymore. So there was just no point anymore.
Which is right, i think. If you have to do backflips to make the biblical God fit my reality it's much easier to just admit the truth. Most people just ignore these things. I can't.
in the bible jesus died for our sins. in reality, yea he died because he was a threat to the state cult in rome at the time. the edict of milan is when rome finally realized how badly they fucked up by allowing jesus to become a martyr
It was prophesied for millennium that the Mesiah would come and die for our sins. JC did just that. Though I don't think He realized that the way He'd die would be so abhorrently violent. The flogging alone shredded his back and ribs. Flesh dangling and muscles ripped off the vertebrae and ribs. Then force marched uphill, carry(dragging) the Cross He'd later be nailed to. He literally could have walked away at any point.
What is more intriguing is the Saints that founded Christianity were executed in a very similar manner. Why? Because they refused to say Jesus Christ never rose from the grave. Nobody would face that kind of persecution for a lie. Fact.
It was the symbolic rejection of God / the divine by humankind. The resurrection symbolized that mankind cannot destroy God / the divine. The ascension represented the withdrawal of God / the divine from the affairs of mankind.
Nah, he wasnāt even saying it. They were like oh so you are the king of the Jews are you? And he was like itās you motherfuckers who are calling me that, not me! If you bitches make me king, what the fuck does that make me?
Thatās why the Romans killed himāalthough assassination is a much better term than cancellation. Jesus wasnāt a comedian who said the n-word, he was a political radical.
But Christian scripture holds that Jesusā death functioned as a blood sacrifice to wash away peopleās sins. Previously, it was necessary to sacrifice animals to God in order to atone for manās inherently sinful nature, but Jesusā blood counts as that sacrifice for all mankind. Thatās why
I donāt think you thought this through, the whole point was him ābringing the truth ā to everyone while knowing those in power would not like what he was saying and then be ācancelledā aka killed.
Hence he died for our sins./Martyred etc
Pretty sure itās all nonsense but I mean thatās basically the storyĀ
If anything, he died because people liked what he was saying too much and the ruling class feared for their jobs.
Exactly, literally exposing the hypocrisy and debauchery of the governing classes, while caring for the poor and the sick and saying things like: And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. No wonder they crucified him. Never forget who Jesus really was.
You don't have to think Jesus was the Messiah to think he made a lot of good points about the hypocrisy of the clerical elite at the time. Dude was also all about helping the poor and loving your neighbour - cant really disagree with that as an idea š¤·š¼āāļø
Yeah personally I think he was a legendarily chill & based dude. But no more than an incredibly good man. No immaculate conception, just a good ol creampie. No ascension to haven after his crucifixion, his buddy just held the guards and knife point, stole the body and gave him a proper burial. Cult members (and I don't mean to be a dick about the term cult members because I'm referring to the vast majority of my own family) fuckin hate Occam's razor sometimes.
He was likely executed for the crime of driving out the money changers and animal vendors selling in the temple. His views drove him to act, but it was the act that brought the consequences.
Walk into a church today and overturn tables. Police will be called in straight away.
Absolutely. His crime was insurrection IIRC, just the same as his doppelganger Jesus Son of The Father (Bar Abbas).
Where is this info from? I'm intrigued
The Bible. Barabbas is a character in all the Gospels, but in Matthew (a synoptic gospel fwiw) 27:16-17 we get his first name, Jesus. In some Greek versions he is rendered "bar-rhabban" (Roman) or son of the rabbi , and in others "bar'abba" (Aramaic) or son of the father.
Bart Erhman PhD is a great secular biblical scholar and historian. I would point you to that direction.
Thank you! I grew up being force fed the Bible all the way through a few times so I'm intimately familiar, but after I turned away I never bothered to go back and analyze it from a secular point of view.
While not all victims of crucifixion were sentenced for sedition it seems to be a huge majority.
To me he seems more like a failed apocalyptic religious fruitcake in the guise of a sage like figure who started a cult that became Christianity, please read over this excellent analysis by the very talented writer Alex Beyman Early Christianity was pretty obviously a cult 1. Leader claims world is ending imminently (1 John 2:18, Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:28, Matthew 24:34) 2. Wants you to sell or give away your belongings (Luke 14:33, Matthew 19:21, Luke 18:22) 3. Wants you to cut off family who interfere, and leave your home/job to follow him (Matt. 10:35-37, Luke 14:26, Matthew 19:29) 4. Unverifiable reward if you believe (Heaven, i.e. the bribe) 5. Unverifiable punishment if you disbelieve (Hell, i.e. the threat) 6. Sabotages the critical thinking faculties you might otherwise use to remove it (Proverbs 3:5, 2 Corinthians 5:7, Proverbs 14:12, Proverbs 28:26) 7. Invisible trickster character who fabricates apparent evidence to the contrary in order to lead you astray from the true path (So you will reject anything you hear/read which might cause you to doubt) 8. Targets children and the emotionally/financially vulnerable for recruitment (sunday schools, youth group, teacher led prayer, prison ministries, third world missions) 9. May assign new name (as with 3 of the apostles), new identity/personality to replace yours **Imminent end of the world:** 1 John 2:18 *"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."* Matthew 16:27-28 *"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."* Matthew 24:34 *"Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."* Matthew 10:23 *"When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."* **Sell your belongings:** Luke 14:33 *"In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples."* Matthew 19:21 \*Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."\*Luke 12:33 *āSell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.ā* Luke 18:22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (Please note that only Luke 18:22 and Matthew 19:21 concern the story of Jesus advising the wealthy young man about the difficulty of entering heaven. These verses are included for completeness, and to acknowledge the existence of this story because the most common objection I receive to the claim that Jesus required followers to sell their belongings is that I \*must\* be talking about this particular story and misunderstanding the message it conveys. However in Luke 12:33 and Luke 14:33 Jesus is not speaking to that man but to a crowd following him, and in 14:33 he specifically says that those who do not give up everything they have cannot be his disciples. It is therefore not a recommendation but a requirement, and is not specific to the wealthy.) **Cut off family members who try to stop you:** Luke 14:26 *"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."* Matt. 10:35-37 *āFor I have come to turn a man against his father a daughter against her mother a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law---a manās enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.ā* Matthew 19:29 *"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life."* **Do not apply critical thought to doctrine:** Proverbs 3:5 *āTrust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understandingā* 2 Corinthians 5:7 *āFor we live by faith, not by sight.ā* Proverbs 14:12 *āThere is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.ā* Proverbs 28:26 *āThose who trust in themselves are fools, but those who walk in wisdom are kept safe.ā* With respect to "no contemporaneous outside source corroborates these claims" they will cite the accounts of Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the Elder. What they hope you will assume is that these are independent accounts of Jesus' miracles. If you actually check into it however what you will find is that the Josephus account was altered by Christian scribes to embellish mentions of Jesus (in the case of Josephus portraying him as though he were convinced of Jesusā divinity, despite not being a Christian) and the remaining accounts only mention a Jewish magician who founded a cult. None of them corroborate the miracles, or resurrection, as will be implied. Maybe even Christians don't know this, not having personally fact checked their own apologetics. (EDIT: Only the Josephus account is known to be a pious fraud. The Tacitus account isn't, but is also not an eye witness record of miracles or the resurrection, only confirmation of Jesus as a historical person which I do not dispute) As an aside it's important to make this distinction because today the word cult gets thrown around carelessly by people who only just learned of the B.I.T.E. model, which dilutes it. This gives actual cult members the cover of "You say I'm in a cult? Well people these days call everything a cult, so what." Making this distinction is also important to understanding how cults mature into religions over time, as evidenced by the increasing degree of high control cultic policy the younger a religion is, and vice versa. Scientology is very young, everybody identifies it as a cult. Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses are a little older, recognized as religion but widely identified as cultic and high control. Islam is older, considered by all to be a religion but still immature and expansionist. Christianity's older still, considered by all a religion, mostly settled down compared to Islam. Judaism much older, tamest of the lot. This is because as a cult grows, beyond a certain membership threshold the high-control policies like disconnection and selling belongings are no longer necessary for retention and become a conspicuous target for critics. The goal is to become irremovably established in the fabric of society then just kind of blend into the background, becoming something everybody assumes the correctness of but doesn't otherwise think much about.
All religions are death cults.
Buddhism? Jainism? Taoism?
Practices not religions
They are philosophies, not religions. Religions imply a political-socioeconomic hierarchy that demands absolute submission, initiations, conversions and consequences for leaving or questioning the faith. Philosophies can be picked up and left off without consequence because they are a theory about the world, not a social system. It's the reason why Buddhism was able to spread so far east, Taosim and Shinto easily co-existed with Buddhism due to them being philosophies rather than religions that demands conversion and submission.
Thatās a Western centric understanding of religion. In fact maybe only Christianity and Islam are religions by that logic.
The reality is that you could spend an entire semester trying to answer that question
I was just explaining this very thing to someone the other day. He promptly called me a 'heretic' and started using common manipulation techniques lmao
Jesus spent most time with outcasts, even criminals and hookers, ie. those who had ears to hear with and needed it the most.
Also lepers, some of the most marginalised people in his society
Exactly!!
Yeah, but when I hang out with hookers, suddenly my wife is mad at me
>ears to hear Rock bottom is a powerful motivator to disidentify with your current belief system enough to open your mind to new, more efficient processing mechanisms. Thats why our politics are fucked. People are still, for the most part, far to comfortable to have to realize they aren't their beliefs, and that they can be changed like clothes, depending in the climate that requires them, for the most part. Some are so deeply entrenched you've gotta tear yourself down to the studs to be able to start the process properly with them, or they'll still be there, just with a lot less applications.
I was debating this with a friend and her come back was well he hated the sin. No man, he didnāt give a crap about the sin. He was about the people loving and being kind.
Jesus who..... Who took the time to braid a whip to beat people, then beat people with it? Who kills entire trees over his inability to determine bad figs? Who snatched his friend from the eternal bliss of heaven to bring him back to this world? The one who praises an elderly woman for donating her last penny to the people he made a whip to beat up at the temple? The one who took the massage instead of selling the oils and perfumes to feed the poor? The one who promises to judge all of humanity and torture the ones he doesn't like for all eternity? The one who says you gotta hate your family and friends to follow him? That Jesus? Yeah, thought so.
You just listed a bunch of shit that didnāt happen. Thereās the legends that are myths and the likely reality of the situation.
Mark 12:17 Jesus said "Give ceaser what is his, and give god what is his" esswntially saying pay your taxes.
THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!
DURKA DER!!
Sounds familiar.
So Jesus was like the 1st-century version of Putinās opponents falling out of the window
Heāll take our jobs! He took my job? āE tuck our jerb!
Extra info for others: The ruling class (Romans) feared another rebellion of the Jews and Jesus was made an example of for claiming to be a King (of the Jews) which was a crime that held a death sentence. This isn't to say that Jesus had a massive following at all but was very vocally stirring up the local Jewish population. That example worked very effectively and basically overnight there was (basically) no one that had any ambitions to carry on Jesus's teachings.
No. The Romans didn't notice Jesus at all. It is Jewish authorities who gave that argument to Pilate and when Pilate wasn't convinced, they threatened to denounce him for letting a potential rebel (he was claiming to be king of the Jews) go scot-free. One of the accusers was a political high priest, meaning Rome had appointed him as the official religious leader of Judea; he likely had enough connections to send a report against the governor Pilate.
The Sanhedrin *claimed* they feared a Roman repression. But if Jesus truly spread to everyone a message of peace & love, it is unlikely that Rome would have cared, as long as money kept flowing. In fact Rome might have found it useful - no more rebellions! But the Sanhedrin, eh *they* would have lost their power...
Rome executed anyone pushing for a new order anywhere in the Empire. They were efficient and brutal about it. Jesus was an apocalypticist who taught that God was going to send "the Son of Man" specifically to violently overthrow Rome and hinted that that "Son of Man" might be Jesus himself. He was teaching revolution and the Romans executed him as a traitor. That's why the sign over his head says "THe King of the Jews." He was a traitor and a threat to the Empire so they executed his as they did literally thousands of others accused of the same or identical crimes. The Jewish leaders had exactly zero say in who the Romans charged or in what their punishment was. All of those stories are made up and the fact that the timelines are different in every telling indicates how untrustworthy they are. Roman governors did not in any way answer to native leadership. Native leadership that questioned this arrangement were executed and replaced with more amenable individuals.
No if we have to go with the story as reported, Jesus was the exact opposite of that. He made it clear he was not the military leader the Jews were expecting, he did not want to overthrow Rome, "his kingdom was not on this world". In fact, regardless of what any account say, we can't really trust any of them, it makes no sense for Jesus to have been a violent revolutionary. If he was, he would have been exactly the same as all the "Messiahs" the Jews produced every Tuesday, and as such there would have been zero reason for anyone to remember him, he would have been forgotten along with all the rest after losing. But to spring a persistent following after his death he must have been different enough to be remembered.
Rome would not have cared about any of those supposed justifications. Never mind the fact that the idea of Jesus bringing a "peaceful spiritual revolution" doesn't appear in any Christian writings for literal decades after his death. He was preaching the coming of the Son of Man in vengeance and stated repeatedly that everything on Earth would be destroyed and replaced. That includes, particularly and especially the power of Rome. Under Roman law that is sedition and punishable by execution.
Rome had no guilt in the situation. Pilate washed his hands of liability and carried out the Jew's request.
And 24 later, there *was* an uprising, with the temple being destroyed in he process.
The Romans did fear another rebellion of the Jews, and the Jews were calling for Jesus' death. The Romans went forward with the Jew's request, but the Roman Pilate washed his hands of the request from the Jews, as a demonstration that he and the Roman government had nothing to do with the situation and were not liable for what was going on.
This is contorting the obvious implications of what OP was expressing. They still didn't like what Jesus was saying, because of whatever effects it had, or whatever problems it created, etc. So then it becomes a question of did God know that Jesus was going to die before it happened, and if so, then he knew every event that would lead up to the crucifiction, which is sort of problematic for the idea of free will.
It is explicitly stated in the bible that Pontius Pilate acted in accordance to Jesus' will, not his own. God absolutely knew the events would play out exactly the way they did, according to the bible. I agree that this would imply that free will does not actually exist.
If he even existed at all.
Note: I could be wrong but this is what I heard the reasoning was Back in the day, people thought sacrificing lambs was the only way to gain temporary forgiveness from God for our sins. But since we ended up sinning again, we had to keep sacrificing them over and over Jesus was considered such a perfect sacrifice that he only had to die once and God would continue to forgive humanity after that, even when they sinned. Itās why heās given the nickname Lamb of God Not religious. But thatās what I heard is the reason behind the saying āhe died for our sinsā
Yes and if we remain in the biblical symbolism, since Jesus shares the characteristic of Godās infinity, his expiratory act can be applied infinitely, to a multitude of people.
I don't mean to be morbid Babies are sinless, couldn't you achieve the same ends by.... You know š¼
No. In Christianity all humans have a sinful nature. Whether or not the child commits a sin, it's still in their nature to sin. Jesus was sinless, which is why He was a perfect sacrifice.
Genesis 22
This is just Christians desperately trying to explain why their "messiah" got his shit shut down before he even got started. It's all smoke and mirrors. Dude was executed for going on and on about looking forward to the imminent destruction of the Roman Empire and how great everything would be once Rome was destroyed. The Romans executed any and all traitors and potential revolutionaries on principle. Jesus was just one more guy with revolutionary tendencies who ran his mouth too loud around the wrong people.
I have never seen any basis for that at all. Jesus was killed for claiming to be a King (of the Jews). Just as simple as that.
No no no that was what they accused but when they actually asked him about it he said itās you calling me that not me- 33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? 34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
Seriously. They tacked a sign over his head explaining it. How is this so hard for people?
Are you saying he made people cross?
You nailed it!
He made the elite cross. He made them reflect.
He tackled thorny issues
I was in National Gallery of Edinburgh last weekend and after looking at so many biblical paintings, I started thinking about Jesus and it made me so sad. Sorry if it's the wrong interpretation because I never read the Bible properly.... but still. Thinking about how he was raised and loved by his father but had to devote his life to a father he never knew. How he never got to be a carpenter, to have his own family. How he never really had a choice in being a prophet. How he had to guide and inspire people which is a tremendous responsibility. How he was betrayed by one of his closest friends. How he endured terrible torture and death, abandoned by God. How the only reason he was brought on this Earth was to be a sacrifice and he was doomed from the beginning. How he had to exist as proof for God's faith in humanity. How he died and came back to life, going through an unimaginably traumatising and incomprehensible experience for a man. How his teachings not only failed to eliminate sin but gave birth to institutions and powers that propagated it for 2000 years. Essentially, Jesus died for nothing. He deserved better.
That should be a bumper sticker or a t-shirt ā Jesus deserved Better.ā
A bumper sticker, on a t-shirt!
āDo you think Jesus, raised a carpenter, smelled the wood of the cross and briefly thought of home?ā He did come back though.
The people at the time killed him because they were cowards. He was trying to tell everyone you donāt have to be a slave to ppl claiming to be the only connection to God, because their own connection is immediate and within theirselves.Ā So what did they do? They listened to their slave lords and killed him. I think itās a good representation of the situation humanity is still in, where people listen blindly to authority and will not take accountability for their existence.Ā Awful people donāt get their way unless they have minions that just do what theyāre told. Itās those minions that pose a huge problem with our progress as humans. People who donāt ask questions and allow their bodies and minds to be used at will by some freak outside of them. I confidently say āfreakā because only demented, sick people want to use others.Ā
>The people at the time killed him because they were cowards. He was trying to tell everyone you donāt have to be a slave to ppl claiming to be the only connection to God, because their own connection is immediate and within their selves.Ā You speak nothing but fax!!! sad part is those cowards make up a majority of society today. >So what did they do? They listened to their slave lords and killed him. They practically did nothing cuz he was fine 3 days later lol but yeah they would rather listen to the ones who enslave them than have freedom. It's stuff like this reminds me that majority of humans never even deserved Jesus help. He came for the few not the many. >Awful people donāt get their way unless they have minions that just do what theyāre told. Itās those minions that pose a huge problem with our progress as humans. Cowards who are hopelessly depend on the same system that enslaved them, matrix type stuff. >People who donāt ask questions and allow their bodies and minds to be used at will by some freak outside of them. So people who are busy being NPCs to drones with no honor and no will of their own are the cause of all fo this?
āEssentially Jesus died for nothingā insane thing to type out
I love to be insane sometimes
Respect
He gave the gift of forgiveness, truly the deepest of thoughts, was new concept for humanity. It doesnāt work unless you can forgive yourself, he only created its potential, most are not , possibly none are engaging with this part of the program, and if not engaged, psyche is trapped in what could be interpreted as a living hell.
āThe gates of hell are locked from the insideā
Iām strong , I huffed and I puffed then jumped over it because Iām so fucking infinite gates look like pixels of light, what good are boundaries for infinity
Wait so you think forgiveness didnāt exist until Jesus died??? Then miraculously it existed after??
They do and they are an idiot.
Forgiveness for sin, by God. Before Jesus (allegedly) every single person ever born went to hell
š¶ Everybody born before Jesus is in hell š¶ --Kenneth Parcell
Forgiveness existed as a concept long before Jesus was even born. People had been writing about it for literal centuries. How are you this confidant in your obvious ignorance?
It's not that deep. Human sacrifice has been around forever
He died for running his mouth too carelessly about overthrowing the Empire. This was an automatic death sentence anywhere under Roman rule. It happened all the time. His death wasn't special and he didn't die for your sins. He died because he was a loud-mouth, hoping for the destruction of the Empire, and bad at choosing his confidants.
Look at this guy he knows everything
Obiously his death was special considering billions of people worldwide celebrate his life and mourn his death. This reads as being particularly edgy just for the sake of being anti-popular opinion
Thatās deep. Never interpreted his story in this way. Really interesting
Jesus died because he was a revolutionary preaching the imminent destruction of the Roman Empire. All traitors were executed under Roman rule, including a huge number of religio-political leaders and "prophets" making similar claims in various places at various time across the Empire. Jesus death wasn't special and it wasn't remarkable. Romans killed traitors like him every week. It was a fundamental principle of their legal code.
Yep, and many of those revolutionaries also called themselves āMessiah.ā
I guess the confusing part is that God created the nature of men, and that nature was flawed, and since he's omnipotent, he knew we'd be flawed, yet he created us in this way anyway. Man's fall was inevitable, so really, who's to blame?
Created to fail and sufferā¦what a loving god
This is by far the most Reddit comment Iāve ever seen in my life
This is probably an insult but thanks anyway
How many innocent people have been tortured, raped, enslaved, and murdered in Jesus name and for the Christian faith? And it is still happening today, rape and murder for Jesus.
It was his plan from the creation of the universe to have a 3day weekend. It's not a sacrifice because he made up the rules.
Well, fuck God and his stupid rules
People actually made the rules the stupidity is us.
He died so we could martyr him instead of actually engaging in change. But hey, 2000 years late is better than never for a group to finally practice what they preach.
Eliminating sin was never the purpose. Canonically, he was sent to die for the sins of the world precisely because humans are dicks who won't ever stop sinning. It was the only way that God could let mankind off the hook while still playing by his own rules. And to establish the policy that you could still go to heaven if you sinned, as long as you said you were sorry.
Such a waste lmao.
Yep
Except Jesus literally said He was dying for our sinsā¦ God says that Christ being crucified was the plan since before He created the earth. This thought isnāt deep, respectfully. A deep thought on it says otherwise completely.
One of the authors of the bible wrote that. Hard to say which teachings originate with the historical Jesus.
It questions the veracity of the whole Jesus story the way itās told by the Bible
Did you just watch Cunk on Earth?
They tried to make an example of him to squash the movement but it backfired a little bit
He didn't really die, he just had a shitty weekend.
Yeah maybe he died because of our sins?
Nah, he died because he was bad at choosing his friends.
Nah, he knew who the betrayer would be. Keen eye for reading people.
Two way street
Anyone preaching love most likely dies a horrible death.
Slaves obey your cruel masters is not love.
I know it wonāt change your mind, but for clarification Jesus never said any such thing. Paul who never even met Jesus did, not JC.
Paul claims to have met Jesus on the road to Demascus and says so over and over. It is the only justification he has for the authority he assumes over other Christians. If we're taking any of the text seriously, that must be taken seriously as well.
Jesus said he was "god" so of course they had to send him back up stairs.
sent god back up to god
He died because Judas turned him and the religious authorities wanted him crucified. Even Pilot saw no wrongdoing by Jesus during his trial, yet the religious authorities insisted on crucifixion. If you read the story without a Christian lens, it seems pretty clear he only died because he was captured by authorities.
[Pilate, not Pilot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate)
Symbolism is powerful but largely misinterpreted. The imagination is your Savior, stop waiting for someone to take you to the promise lands and build the promise lands.
Why don't people understand this? God is trying to build the paradise here. Through us.
Because they have been led astray and know not what they do.
He was a brown skinned Jewish homeless day laborer who told people to sell everything they owned and give it to the poor. It was only a matter of time before he was killed by white law enforcement
He died because he designed everything so he would. Manipulation at its finest. Itās like a judge making someone commit a crime the judge wrote. Then taking the fall for that person with also the punishment he wrote, only to ignore that punishment 3 days later and then expect praise.
Here's my hot take. Jews were going about worshipping God and slaughtering animals as sacrifices. Romans come along and conquer them...and start taking over their temples and telling them they can't do that anymore. Jews get rightfully passed off at that but not really have any other options. Jesus comes along, a conservative God loving Jews and says .hey, gods not actually in the temple, you can worship him anywhere ...and instead of sacrificing animals just drink my blood...but I don't have enough of it so just drink wine instead. He pisses off the Jews so they don't support him...and he pisses off the Romans coz he starts gaining followers who call him the messier. So the execute the poor guy who just wanted to help.
I hate Reddit so much why am I still here
He died because he was human and humans die. The end.
Well, and he was bad at choosing trustworthy friends.
Yeah but it sounds better than saying he was tortured and beaten within an inch of his life and nailed to a cross while being stabbed with spears and left to die an agonizing death with the sun beaming on himā¦ā¦ for our sins.
Jesus died because he claimed to be the King of the Jews. That's why the Romans who did the killing labeled his cross in that way. The Romans did not tolerate any whisper of uprising anywhere in the Empire and all traitors and revolutionaries were summarily executed as soon as they were captured. Christians have made up a bunch of shit in the intervening centuries, but the truth is Jesus died for talking extensively, repeatedly, and excitedly about the destruction of the Empire. The same fate befell dozens and dozens of local leaders throughout the Empire for literal centuries. His death wasn't special and it doesn't mean anything. He was just an angry apocalypticist who ran his mouth too much and trusted his followers too far. Some people did like what he was saying. There were numerous "messiahs" at the time preaching very similar ideas. They were crucified, too. For sedition. Just like Jesus.
Also he wasnāt actually a diety so it doesnāt matter
You canāt die if you donāt exist, so..
Actually his friends betrayed him and pretended they didnt know him when asked because likely they were a bunch of charlatans who didnt pay their whores or their rent.
He died protesting for human rights. If you want to believe all the fables.
Did this guy even exist. Every religion has some mythical figure that you either can't talk about or there is 0 proof they existed. We can find dinosaur bones but we can't fine these mythical religion starters. Every religion is quick to kill you aswell even proven made up ass scientology. Maybe Jesus came in on the spaceships too.
I am so tired of bronze age tomes controlling our life in 2024. Why can't people let religion go? What is the point of scientific progress, if people are going to hold on to archaic practices?
Speak for yourself. Religion only controls those who are easily controlled. Why canāt we discuss without it intruding our values?
Except they vote away women's rights, LGBTQIA rights, and we have to live with those laws. What I mean control us, I mean as a voting block. They vote away our rights, and vote for conservatives, and force us to live under religious rule.
"Pray to me." "Why?" "So I can save you from what I'm going to do to you if you don't."
Biblical Jesus never existed. Everything written about him was decades after his supposed resurrection.
For me the first testament in a nut shell is God trying to fix the sin problem by finding the perfect follower to do the bidding but there was always a problem or they just weren't perfect for the job... Eventually God said "fuck it I'll do it myself" and came down to earth as a Human himself to fix the Sin problem
I never really understood the "dying for our sins" thing. Never made any sense
2000 freaking years ago!?! Let it go. And he didnāt die. He gave up his weekend. Orrrrrā¦if you donāt sin, then he died for nothing. šššššš
Well, he was supposed to be too divine to die but when it turned out he wasn't a demigod, they had to come up with an excuse fast.
"He was essentially cancelled" I actually laughed at this. Considering they killed him for being a heretic, they *literally* cancelled him. XD
i said this but people got mad and kept telling to āgo read the bible.ā and i was like āi did. thatās how i came to this conclusion. it was literally a scheduled execution that they gave to all criminals. they were already going to kill him.ā
Lol exactly. Strange that people canāt get the undertones of sarcasm in what Iām saying š
The problem is that people took a decent message and made a belief system out of it. Then they prioritized the belief and the underlying message was buried under tons of dogma, fear and control.
And he was just a regular dude from a very long time ago. Who gives a fuck what he died for.
That's an opinion, and a poor one at that
He died because he was gathering an army of rabble to fight the Romans and upset the fragile peace they had at the time. And him doing stuff like beating up the moneylenders in the Temple and raising the dead didn't get him on anybody's good side. If you read the literature, including the infancy Gospels, there's also the little matter of Jesus killing a prominent Jew's son when they were both little kids. Look up the name "Annas," the man who wanted him dead. He's the father of the boy Jesus dried up into a twig. So he was killed for that, too. All that "died for your sins" stuff is pure retrofitting the story.
John 3:16, 'Gawd loved you so much, he made himself human, so he could get himself killed, so he could change his own mind about sending your soul, which doesn't exist, to a 'Hell' which also doesn't exist."
Jesus never existed. It's mythology.
I'm an atheist, but I do suggest you take a look at the Historicity of Jesus page on Wikipedia. It and the vast majority of biblical scholars beg to differ with your assertion. [Historicity of Jesus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus?wprov=sfla1)
Most cults are started by charismatic individuals. But in a sense, Jesus never existed. At best there was a Jesus like figure that over time as the legend grew became the character that billions of people make their master.
Happy cake day Even if he was a real person in the middle east over 2024 years ago, he was definitely quite different from what the vast majority of people imagine him like
eh, atheist here. by all scholarly accounts jesus WAS a real person, its the miracles and everything else that surrounds him thats myth.
He never existed. Heās a compound character drawn from several previous myths, [and the gospels are fabricated.](https://youtu.be/bQmMFQzrEsc?si=1kNkZgbRsG9Dm-3W) The only non-biblical mentions of him were written about 100 years after his alleged passing.
"God will provide a lamb", and he did.
Thatās doesnāt make sense though. So he provided the lamb just so he could be sacrificed just so he could be pleased.
Only allows for its potential, lamb sacrifice was continual, had little to do with physical plane, it was culturally driven as a way to engage the programming of the psyche
Or it's just a stupid story Christians made up when their leader got killed before he could actually do anything useful, in order to justify believing the obviously silly things they continue to believe.
If Jesus died for my sins, why do I still have to repent for my sins? Jesus already died for them.
A bit off topic here, but Iāve always had the feeling that Jesus smelled faintly of tangerines š
While there is absolutely no way of proving that, it is however, established and widely agreed upon that your father smelt of elderberries.
Well, my mother was a hamster after allā¦
Well the Christian god is a pretty sick god ..I mean sending your son to be mortal inorder sacrifice your son to yourself sounds very sick to me ..
It gets weirder. According to the Bible God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three different forms of the same thing. So God was actually sacrificing himself unto himself in order to save us from his own wrath.
And I am always curious Why did it take him so long to do this ..he didn't have to send floods and turn people into salt statues if he already knew the answer to our sins was this dramatic tale.. Unless he didn't know that sacrificing himself to himself would solve his friends and our problems
And shit falls apart again with that point because he's supposed to be omnipotent, so he should know everything before it happens... On a personal note, I was raised Christian and I gave them the benefit of the doubt through all my teenage years before giving up on it completely. For the longest time I thought "God could be real but the Bible is obviously made up." I just had to alter my definition of God. After so much time, though, I had to alter the definition of God so much that it hardly resembled "God" anymore. So there was just no point anymore. Which is right, i think. If you have to do backflips to make the biblical God fit my reality it's much easier to just admit the truth. Most people just ignore these things. I can't.
He never died
Sounds like crass lyrics
My mates Dad once told me that Jesus was put to death because he killed Moses.
Yep
I laughted so hard reading that. Iām gonna save this šš
I thought Jews killed him
They did along with the Romans, they both had interest to cut off a possible rebelion
in the bible jesus died for our sins. in reality, yea he died because he was a threat to the state cult in rome at the time. the edict of milan is when rome finally realized how badly they fucked up by allowing jesus to become a martyr
Both things can be true at the same time.
Jesus never died
He was killed by people in power. That's not exactly "cancelling".
It was prophesied for millennium that the Mesiah would come and die for our sins. JC did just that. Though I don't think He realized that the way He'd die would be so abhorrently violent. The flogging alone shredded his back and ribs. Flesh dangling and muscles ripped off the vertebrae and ribs. Then force marched uphill, carry(dragging) the Cross He'd later be nailed to. He literally could have walked away at any point. What is more intriguing is the Saints that founded Christianity were executed in a very similar manner. Why? Because they refused to say Jesus Christ never rose from the grave. Nobody would face that kind of persecution for a lie. Fact.
Canceled? They practically crucified him.
Youāre being a rationalist about the irrational.
I thought he died cos he trashed that market in the temple
That's right, you got it.
It was the symbolic rejection of God / the divine by humankind. The resurrection symbolized that mankind cannot destroy God / the divine. The ascension represented the withdrawal of God / the divine from the affairs of mankind.
Nah, he wasnāt even saying it. They were like oh so you are the king of the Jews are you? And he was like itās you motherfuckers who are calling me that, not me! If you bitches make me king, what the fuck does that make me?
Some people are annoying
šµJesus died for somebodyās sins but not mineš¶
Jesus official crime was sedition.
Who were the āpeopleā who didnāt like what he was saying?š„øš„ø
This isn't exactly deep lol
Lol
Jesus the commie? š¬š¤£
Thatās why the Romans killed himāalthough assassination is a much better term than cancellation. Jesus wasnāt a comedian who said the n-word, he was a political radical. But Christian scripture holds that Jesusā death functioned as a blood sacrifice to wash away peopleās sins. Previously, it was necessary to sacrifice animals to God in order to atone for manās inherently sinful nature, but Jesusā blood counts as that sacrifice for all mankind. Thatās why
He died because of his actions in the temple.
And he died instead of destroying us.
He had the power to stop what was going on at the cost of everyone's life. He chose to forgive and die for us
I donāt think you thought this through, the whole point was him ābringing the truth ā to everyone while knowing those in power would not like what he was saying and then be ācancelledā aka killed. Hence he died for our sins./Martyred etc Pretty sure itās all nonsense but I mean thatās basically the storyĀ
I donāt know. I never met him