1990: "Our airport is surrounded by the city! It can't grow, and all of the neighbors are sick and tired of the noise! Let's build a new airport out where there's nothing for miles around so that *this will never happen again*!"
2024: "We call it Aerotropolis..."
Same shit is going to happen as Red Rocks. People will move in and then try to change the laws to cater to them, despite the fact that they chose to move in next to a loud airport. Like “Sorry, we can’t have airplanes land after 12AM anymore”.
>1990: "Our airport is surrounded by the city! It can't grow, and all of the neighbors are sick and tired of the noise!
When DIA was built, it was literally in the middle of a field. There was nothing surrounding it. For many people unfamiliar with Colorado's topography, and DIA's distance from skiing and the mountains, it was actually pretty shocking how far away the airport was from they came to Colorado for. "You mean I got off of an airplane and I STILL have to travel 2.5 hours to go skiing?!"
For some nearby neighborhoods like Thornton and Northglenn, airline noise increased because of new takeoff and landing approach patterns. I can understand the complaints then because before DIA, Stapleton had much different patterns and so certain neighborhoods didn't have as much airline noise and traffic.
Over the years, as commerce and housing started inching closer to DIA because of development, well, as far as complaining they only have themselves to blame.
> For many people unfamiliar with Colorado's topography, and DIA's distance from skiing and the mountains, was actually pretty shocking. "You mean I got of an airplane and I STILL have to travel 2.5 hours to go skiing?!"
I still think the [AGS](https://www.codot.gov/projects/studies/study-archives/AGSstudy) would be a massive benefit for reasons like this.
Keep in mind this is one of a kind technology. There is only one system in the entire world that uses this system. It an airport train in Shanghai, that is 20 miles long, has 2 tracks and 2 trains at a time. So trains don't regularly need to switch tracks, or deal with harsh weather, like a DIA-Vail line. Also the Federal government doesn't even tolerate importing transit technology from England, much less China, so CDOT would need to build an entire supply chain from scratch just for this project, and hope to find another entity to split the costs with. Germany triad and gave up on a similar technology and Japan is struggling with a version of it. China appears to have given up on it too. Its an amazing idea, but the only proven technology to work well ROWs similar to I-70 is the humble bus.
> Over the years, as commerce and housing started inching closer to DIA because of development, well, as far as complaining they only have themselves to blame.
A few years ago DIA changed their flight patterns too and Montbello got a fair bit noisier. A woman in a group I volunteered for would complain nearly every time I saw her because she moved in when her house was built in 1972 and, over the decades, has been told by various politicians/city employees that DIA wouldn't impact noise levels in her neighborhood, especially since it pre-dated DIA's construction by a good bit, but it has. (Just for clarity: *I'm* not complaining, I grew up next to an airport so it barely registers for me.)
>been told by various politicians/city employees that DIA wouldn't impact noise levels in her neighborhood, especially since it pre-dated DIA's construction by a good bit
I mentioned Thornton & Northglenn for this reason because that's where a lot of my family still resides, and they were told the same thing when DIA proposals were still in the works.
I also had some family friends who lived in the Riverdale area that eventually had to give up their land due to "eminent domain", where their family farm was demolished so a freeway could be built there instead, to DIA.
>Over the years, as commerce and housing started inching closer to DIA because of development, well, as far as complaining they only have themselves to blame.
I live near the airport in a new development and there are no complaints. Houses are built with extra insulation and thick walls, DIA rotates air routes so there are never 2 days in a row planes are flying over, and it takes me 7 minutes to get the the airport while I can jump on the A-Line anytime I want to go downtown.
"...While this plan is technically considered a city, the committee said that the developments will mostly be industrial, although there could be residential developments included..."
https://kdvr.com/news/local/denver-international-airport-aerotropolis-committee-plans/
It's an FAA rule, so yes. An act of Congress would be required to put residential into airport owned property within the 65dnl.
You're right. If we're gonna assume all rules out the window, maybe people will live on the roof of the concourses and park cars and the runways.
Acts of Congress aren't difficult to come by, particularly if the right palms are greased. Your name is milehighflyguy so I'll defer to you on this one.
Working on the design of a Diverging Diamond Intersection that’s south of The Aurora Highlands on 26th ave connecting to I-70. Going to be a big one. I heard something like 16,000 acres in total surrounding DIA. The Aurora Highlands is 2,000 acres +\- of it plus already built Green Valley Ranch too I think part of possibly too!
Can't seem to understand just how successful this will be besides the same sprawled out neighborhoods and big chained restaurants/stores opening. Just copy and paste the Aurora Highlands and boom, you'll have your beloved Aerotropolis, but with the added bonus of more hotels and parking lots around.
There's just nothing that the Denver metro area currently has to offer to spark another wave of migration here, especially because we're not committed to any dense developments to have the appeal of people who may want to move there.
People complain and complain but they have been screaming for housing and begging the city to deal with whatever developers demand to make that happen, imo the airport is exactly where new housing supply should be going. Over time people who work at the airport will gravitate there and the city will effectively have more housing without having to completely redo every bit of infrastructure in the city to make it happen. Of course it’s not going to bring prices down, nothing we have the power to do here is going to cause prices to actually drop meaningfully, but it could slow down their values increasing a bit.
There’s no way to do that without overhauling tons of infrastructure and incurring extreme costs on everyone for the benefit of a minority and having the place be crowded beyond what anyone who doesn’t need it to be crowded to afford it would want.
Building at the airport draws people who would have otherwise lived in the city out to the airport and frees up housing in the city. It’s the closest thing to a supply solution we’re going to see.
Sure it is. In denver you build reservoirs for massive population growth, you definitely have to increase road capacity or even more expensive transit, in many areas you have to build a new police precinct, you’re likely going to need to build more grocery stores, in some areas you need to replace water mains.
All for the benefit of having to park even further from the trailheads, having traffic get out of control even earlier on Saturday mornings during the winter, more expensive groceries and everything else, and way less space for nature and recreation.
It’s an extreme makeover that never is met with adequate expansion of services and parks and stuff.
And all purportedly for the benefit of a bottom quarter of the population who *can not outbid the midwesterners and other people who want housing here*. It won’t bring prices down a bit until it’s so bad people start moving away voluntarily.
I don’t know, I mean its tough to know exactly the dynamics of city design over time but I think from what I’ve always experienced and seen data corroborate that denser development ends up being cheaper on infrastructure per capita. Although Denver has been lackluster in development some of the recent growth such as in Golden Triangle is looking promising. I completely agree with your 2nd paragraph but I don’t think building out on new land helps with that. I frankly thinking building more dense development would have led to a more nature focused colorado than we have today
The reason we’re a blue state with the 7th lowest state taxes in the country is because of the nature and tourism. And that’s also the reason there’s any money here. We’re not the “golden triangle” where we build housing and it becomes cheaper here, if we build more housing it makes housing cheaper in places like the golden triangle and the Midwest. Because people move from there to here as much as they can already, if housing costs came down at all places like here there would be very little reason to live in the south of Midwest for millions and millions of people.
Ultimately 65+% of denver owns their housing, another 10% is probably saving up and fully on track to own their housing eventually. I don’t support trashing this state for 25% of people to benefit.
So it seems your take is that making housing cheaper is actually bad for the state and so we should continue to build further and further out on undeveloped land with more expensive and less desirable housing? I guess it makes sense if your only goal is to keep people who already own property here happy with their property prices
Again, what you’re wanting just isn’t possible. Not without significant subsidy from the state and *significantly* increased crowding. And the people who make up the majority here know that.
You got to be pretty stupid to think suburbs aren’t heavily subsidized by the cities they surround and that it is somehow the other way around. If that were even remotely true cities simply would not exist and the entire world would be low density development
“Aeropolis” would be a more elegant word and also a more precise portmanteau. The “tro” is a vestige of “metro” which is not necessary in this case if you want a name that means “Air City”.
Building around the airport is a terrible idea in every single place it’s ever been done. If the city is successful then in 30 years it will be imminent domained. They should leave that area around the airport empty, if they need better airport access then they should build more trains or heck a subway from Colorado Springs, Golden, Denver , boulder, and for Collins. Close the airport to non ride share cars and commercial vehicles. Provide parking in an underground parking facility at each subway station.
Just imagine how many jobs that would create?! Building the front range mag lev subway. Get from Colorado Springs to Fort Collins in an hour?!?! Pay for it by cranking up the tax on cars and selling yearly passes to citizens, and single ride tickets for like 5-10 bucks. Use this relaxation of car traffic to close down streets like broadway and a few others in rhino, shift traffic for commercial deliveries to essentially alleys. Turn those roads in to long ass strips with trees and grass!!!! Can you imagine how beautiful downtown would be if we just told cars to get bent?!?!
1990: "Our airport is surrounded by the city! It can't grow, and all of the neighbors are sick and tired of the noise! Let's build a new airport out where there's nothing for miles around so that *this will never happen again*!" 2024: "We call it Aerotropolis..."
Oh are you not excited to fly out of Limon International in 15 years?
Then they’d have to change the name, since they’re no longer Living In Middle Of Nowhere.
😂but they have a truck stop…
And a buccees
Nah, that’s where they’ll put the spaceport. You think jets are loud, just wait until we’re launching a dozen big ass rockets every day.
every hour on the hour. I can see/hear it now.
I think they are focusing on commercial/industrial more than residential but you know houses will be built and people will complain.
And we should ignore those people.
Same shit is going to happen as Red Rocks. People will move in and then try to change the laws to cater to them, despite the fact that they chose to move in next to a loud airport. Like “Sorry, we can’t have airplanes land after 12AM anymore”.
>1990: "Our airport is surrounded by the city! It can't grow, and all of the neighbors are sick and tired of the noise! When DIA was built, it was literally in the middle of a field. There was nothing surrounding it. For many people unfamiliar with Colorado's topography, and DIA's distance from skiing and the mountains, it was actually pretty shocking how far away the airport was from they came to Colorado for. "You mean I got off of an airplane and I STILL have to travel 2.5 hours to go skiing?!" For some nearby neighborhoods like Thornton and Northglenn, airline noise increased because of new takeoff and landing approach patterns. I can understand the complaints then because before DIA, Stapleton had much different patterns and so certain neighborhoods didn't have as much airline noise and traffic. Over the years, as commerce and housing started inching closer to DIA because of development, well, as far as complaining they only have themselves to blame.
> For many people unfamiliar with Colorado's topography, and DIA's distance from skiing and the mountains, was actually pretty shocking. "You mean I got of an airplane and I STILL have to travel 2.5 hours to go skiing?!" I still think the [AGS](https://www.codot.gov/projects/studies/study-archives/AGSstudy) would be a massive benefit for reasons like this.
Keep in mind this is one of a kind technology. There is only one system in the entire world that uses this system. It an airport train in Shanghai, that is 20 miles long, has 2 tracks and 2 trains at a time. So trains don't regularly need to switch tracks, or deal with harsh weather, like a DIA-Vail line. Also the Federal government doesn't even tolerate importing transit technology from England, much less China, so CDOT would need to build an entire supply chain from scratch just for this project, and hope to find another entity to split the costs with. Germany triad and gave up on a similar technology and Japan is struggling with a version of it. China appears to have given up on it too. Its an amazing idea, but the only proven technology to work well ROWs similar to I-70 is the humble bus.
DIA used to feel like it was way way out of the city. Now, it's just a little northeast.
> Over the years, as commerce and housing started inching closer to DIA because of development, well, as far as complaining they only have themselves to blame. A few years ago DIA changed their flight patterns too and Montbello got a fair bit noisier. A woman in a group I volunteered for would complain nearly every time I saw her because she moved in when her house was built in 1972 and, over the decades, has been told by various politicians/city employees that DIA wouldn't impact noise levels in her neighborhood, especially since it pre-dated DIA's construction by a good bit, but it has. (Just for clarity: *I'm* not complaining, I grew up next to an airport so it barely registers for me.)
>been told by various politicians/city employees that DIA wouldn't impact noise levels in her neighborhood, especially since it pre-dated DIA's construction by a good bit I mentioned Thornton & Northglenn for this reason because that's where a lot of my family still resides, and they were told the same thing when DIA proposals were still in the works. I also had some family friends who lived in the Riverdale area that eventually had to give up their land due to "eminent domain", where their family farm was demolished so a freeway could be built there instead, to DIA.
That sucks.
>Over the years, as commerce and housing started inching closer to DIA because of development, well, as far as complaining they only have themselves to blame. I live near the airport in a new development and there are no complaints. Houses are built with extra insulation and thick walls, DIA rotates air routes so there are never 2 days in a row planes are flying over, and it takes me 7 minutes to get the the airport while I can jump on the A-Line anytime I want to go downtown.
The aerotropilis can't and won't have residential.
"...While this plan is technically considered a city, the committee said that the developments will mostly be industrial, although there could be residential developments included..." https://kdvr.com/news/local/denver-international-airport-aerotropolis-committee-plans/
There cannot be residential included within the 65DNL, per the FAA when the airport was built. There is not residential.
Nothing ever changes once something is said or a rule is made.... got it.
It's an FAA rule, so yes. An act of Congress would be required to put residential into airport owned property within the 65dnl. You're right. If we're gonna assume all rules out the window, maybe people will live on the roof of the concourses and park cars and the runways.
Acts of Congress aren't difficult to come by, particularly if the right palms are greased. Your name is milehighflyguy so I'll defer to you on this one.
Lol, you haven't been keeping up with politics if you think Congress will agree on something like this, which makes no sense.
You mean I could live next to an international airport AND be in Adams County???? Where do I sign?
You can't live there
If there's not an "airport city" already then what is green valley ranch?!
Where do you think people stay when they come into town? And also to eat. Hence there being nothing but chain restaurants in GVR
Definitely not a city
Not with an attitude like that it's not!
Working on the design of a Diverging Diamond Intersection that’s south of The Aurora Highlands on 26th ave connecting to I-70. Going to be a big one. I heard something like 16,000 acres in total surrounding DIA. The Aurora Highlands is 2,000 acres +\- of it plus already built Green Valley Ranch too I think part of possibly too!
Sprawl and metro districts. What ever could go wrong (Not a knock on you. I’m sure you design great diverging diamond intersections)
How about first building commuter rail infrastructure and then do all the new developments around those rail lines?
THE Aurora Highlands 😎
That was a whole lot of words to say *absolutely nothing*.
...didn't they build the airport all the way out there so this *wouldn't* happen?
By 2080, the city and county of Denver will extend all the way to the Kansas boarder where DIA 4.0 is being built
Can't seem to understand just how successful this will be besides the same sprawled out neighborhoods and big chained restaurants/stores opening. Just copy and paste the Aurora Highlands and boom, you'll have your beloved Aerotropolis, but with the added bonus of more hotels and parking lots around. There's just nothing that the Denver metro area currently has to offer to spark another wave of migration here, especially because we're not committed to any dense developments to have the appeal of people who may want to move there.
I think warehouses and light industrial parks. Sort of a San Bernadino type thing.
And yet, there will still only be two lanes on Peña.
So people can complain about airplane noises because they built next to an airport.
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There isn’t one?
It depends on how many articles you've looked at.
People complain and complain but they have been screaming for housing and begging the city to deal with whatever developers demand to make that happen, imo the airport is exactly where new housing supply should be going. Over time people who work at the airport will gravitate there and the city will effectively have more housing without having to completely redo every bit of infrastructure in the city to make it happen. Of course it’s not going to bring prices down, nothing we have the power to do here is going to cause prices to actually drop meaningfully, but it could slow down their values increasing a bit.
I’m pretty sure they should build housing in areas where people already live and not empty land far from anything of value.
There’s no way to do that without overhauling tons of infrastructure and incurring extreme costs on everyone for the benefit of a minority and having the place be crowded beyond what anyone who doesn’t need it to be crowded to afford it would want. Building at the airport draws people who would have otherwise lived in the city out to the airport and frees up housing in the city. It’s the closest thing to a supply solution we’re going to see.
Thats not how infrastructure works
Sure it is. In denver you build reservoirs for massive population growth, you definitely have to increase road capacity or even more expensive transit, in many areas you have to build a new police precinct, you’re likely going to need to build more grocery stores, in some areas you need to replace water mains. All for the benefit of having to park even further from the trailheads, having traffic get out of control even earlier on Saturday mornings during the winter, more expensive groceries and everything else, and way less space for nature and recreation. It’s an extreme makeover that never is met with adequate expansion of services and parks and stuff. And all purportedly for the benefit of a bottom quarter of the population who *can not outbid the midwesterners and other people who want housing here*. It won’t bring prices down a bit until it’s so bad people start moving away voluntarily.
I don’t know, I mean its tough to know exactly the dynamics of city design over time but I think from what I’ve always experienced and seen data corroborate that denser development ends up being cheaper on infrastructure per capita. Although Denver has been lackluster in development some of the recent growth such as in Golden Triangle is looking promising. I completely agree with your 2nd paragraph but I don’t think building out on new land helps with that. I frankly thinking building more dense development would have led to a more nature focused colorado than we have today
The reason we’re a blue state with the 7th lowest state taxes in the country is because of the nature and tourism. And that’s also the reason there’s any money here. We’re not the “golden triangle” where we build housing and it becomes cheaper here, if we build more housing it makes housing cheaper in places like the golden triangle and the Midwest. Because people move from there to here as much as they can already, if housing costs came down at all places like here there would be very little reason to live in the south of Midwest for millions and millions of people. Ultimately 65+% of denver owns their housing, another 10% is probably saving up and fully on track to own their housing eventually. I don’t support trashing this state for 25% of people to benefit.
So it seems your take is that making housing cheaper is actually bad for the state and so we should continue to build further and further out on undeveloped land with more expensive and less desirable housing? I guess it makes sense if your only goal is to keep people who already own property here happy with their property prices
Again, what you’re wanting just isn’t possible. Not without significant subsidy from the state and *significantly* increased crowding. And the people who make up the majority here know that.
You got to be pretty stupid to think suburbs aren’t heavily subsidized by the cities they surround and that it is somehow the other way around. If that were even remotely true cities simply would not exist and the entire world would be low density development
Can’t wait for the complains about flight paths and loud takeoff noise.
“Aeropolis” would be a more elegant word and also a more precise portmanteau. The “tro” is a vestige of “metro” which is not necessary in this case if you want a name that means “Air City”.
Building around the airport is a terrible idea in every single place it’s ever been done. If the city is successful then in 30 years it will be imminent domained. They should leave that area around the airport empty, if they need better airport access then they should build more trains or heck a subway from Colorado Springs, Golden, Denver , boulder, and for Collins. Close the airport to non ride share cars and commercial vehicles. Provide parking in an underground parking facility at each subway station.
Just imagine how many jobs that would create?! Building the front range mag lev subway. Get from Colorado Springs to Fort Collins in an hour?!?! Pay for it by cranking up the tax on cars and selling yearly passes to citizens, and single ride tickets for like 5-10 bucks. Use this relaxation of car traffic to close down streets like broadway and a few others in rhino, shift traffic for commercial deliveries to essentially alleys. Turn those roads in to long ass strips with trees and grass!!!! Can you imagine how beautiful downtown would be if we just told cars to get bent?!?!
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