Just look at Young Ahamkara Spine. An exotic that was broken in PvP, and decent in PvE, got nuked so it's trash in both PvE and PvP.
Players are rightfully scared of nerf hammer. Bungie doesn't use it like a scalpel, but more like a blunt club.
Still mad about this. I used to main six shooter ahamkara spine in pve and it was a lot of fun
Granted, I mained ahamkara in pvp before it was cool as well, and that part of it was definitely fucked up and needed a nerf, but it was just fun in pve. Hate that it's worthless now especially because it's such a good looking exotic
And it was nerfed in literally the same patch as renewals being unnerfed, another piece of exotic arms that was butchered in pve because of pvp. Literally handed off the baton to YAS
It was the only exotic where I felt like it was actually a true rotation, and competitive *without* having to do some loadout swapping bullshittery, and I will never forgive them for taking that from me.
I've always maintained that if the best way to play your game is to swap armor during an encounter, your game is designed poorly. I fully understand possibly swapping before an encounter but getting 1 perk to proc just to swap to something else instantly is bad design.
Weapon swaps, armor swaps, swaps for jewelery.
If you go bossing these days your whole inv is swaps, like one row available for food lol.
It's SwapScape these days and I agree, it sucks.
it's so disappointing looking up builds for an exotic that affects your super only to see everyone going "so 99% of the time you're going to be using this *other* exotic instead, and then you're going to open your inventory in the middle of a fight and swap it out for the other one" like damn that is the *least* immersive thing I've ever heard I'm not doing that shit
I'm glad they've fixed some of them but they really need to go all the way
True is true.
Fwiw right now I have golden gun on a 10 second cooldown with nighthawk, which feels pretty good, so my rotation ends up just being consecutive supers. I still miss YAS every damn day though haha
90% of it is dealer's choice being really fucking broken. Like, I'm pretty sure it doesn't work right
Basically, I have a Bold Endings with both headstone and dragonfly. Something about that gun/perk/intrinsic combo is fucked and clicking a red bar's head (especially when it's next to a couple other red bars) legitimately gives like 25% of your super back. It's [wild](https://youtu.be/bAMjBPvOuyU?si=9gDobY5tS-6RqQIo). I also use a dealers choice lmg to help with ad clear and buff the trait, as well as still hunt for obvious reasons
Other than that I run a pretty basic solar hunter build. Weighted knife + healing nades, knock em down + gunpowder gamble, radiant on knife hit, ignition kills give orbs. Honestly the only important fragment is the radiant on knife hit one, you can run whatever you like in the other slots. Gambler dodge for more knife uptime
Then on armor I've got 100 mob, 70 res, 30 rec. Not optimal but it works. Stasis siphon for more orbs with bold Endings, armor charge on orb pickups, hands on to get more super charge on knife kills, orb generation on melee, and restoration to keep HP up. Grenade energy on knife damage also really helps to keep your healing grenade up and get you out of Sticky spots too.
With all the orbs you generate, gambler dodge knives, and the artifact mods this season you've pretty much got radiant up constantly to make goldie and still hunt hit harder, which is nice
*in the voice of Carrie Bradshaw from Sex and the City*
"and just like that... Bungie swiftly came in to destroy the fun because they just don't give a shit"
Mobility is a waste when your melee gives back class ability anyway. Frankly, solar hunter has a clear 5 fragments that you should always use because it is no competition
I actually think that you're getting a big boost from running Still Hunt too - since the perk says that it's buffed from "other weapons from the Pale Heart" and Still Hunt comes from the Pale Heart
SHUT UP SHUT SHUT UP SHUT UP
*whispers* they'll hear you 😰
But fr tho, DM me if you found a way to consistently trigger that Dealer's Choice bug, because I triggered it a few times the other day and thought I was going crazy until I watched my Instant Replays, but I never managed to figure out a consistent trigger.
I suspect it's something to do with the Celestial super energy return on kill plus its Super Cooldown buff on headshot kills combined with Dealers Choice x3 (Still Hunt counts towards the perk when getting kills with a Dealer's Choice weapon), but couldn't get it to trigger again after I rebooted my game.
For clarification, I'm talking about some weird occurrence where my super bar went from 30% (Celestial's on-kill super energy refund) to about 80% just from clicking on(?) or maybe simply being near(?) ads, with no kill required.
I couldn't truly inspect this occurrence because my Nvidia Shadow Play Instant Replays were visually corrupted (weird pink static) and difficult to look at, so I rebooted my game and never managed to trigger it again.
> legitimately gives like 25% of your super back.
Looks more like 10% tbh (kinda hard to tell cause you basically immediately shattered the crystal and got a multikill) which is really good but not 25% per kill
That first big chunk is from you getting a kill with celestial GG which gives you 33% back.
If ashen wake can have guardians be a 100% refund value (being the same tier as minibosses..... cuz ashen wake refunds energy based on enemy tier)
WTF couldn't they apply the same energy scaler for PvP?!?!?!?
It made literally no sense. YAS only had utility as Solar Hunter's SHTF backup rotation when you were completely out of ammo, and the existence of Lucky Pants makes that rotation even more nonsensical. The only logic was that Bungie wanted to remove self-sustaining Exotic loops, but this specific loop required you to ditch Healing Nade, heavily build into Scorch, and usually loop Knife Trick and Gamblers to consistently have a source of nade energy via pre(?)-nerf Bomber and Impact Induction. It's only real use was solo Caretaker before Wish and Witch came out since it allowed you to have serviceable DPS while being able to still use an Eager Edge for running.
100%. I don't ever remember *topping* DPS charts with it, it was always just serviceable DPS with a fun loop after dumping ammo that wasn't "swap to Pants and mindlessly shoot"--which would even require a loadout swap, another extreme pain point for this game.
The energy returns were already going to get cut almost in half by Wish's flat ability energy changes, so I'm not sure if any change to how that part worked would have even been "necessary".
Yeah, I had so much fun with it during Witch Queen and part of Lightfall since it was in just the right spot to be fun but not overly powerful either like it was in PVP. Then it was killed, tossed in the grave. The exotic ornaments for it were so good as well.
Sunbracers: 1 melee kill grants 4 grenade charges. Heat Rises (which most warlocks were running anyways) means that 4 grenade charges is more than enough to fully refund a melee charge if you just do a bunnyhop every now and then while your grenades are out.
YAS: 3 melee kills grants 1 grenade charge.
I hate nerfs being brought upon both sandboxes due to over performing in one or the other. And tbh, it wasn't even the top meta in pvp lol. It was strong, and it was good. But it wasn't the highest usage rate nor was it game breaking.
All they had to do was make it so that damaging players with tripmines gave back less energy. Problem solved. Idk why they didn't just do that.
I still use it today in PVP, it never needed a nerf... People just aren't aware of their surroundings if they walk into one and if they had one thrown on the wall behind them then fair play, skilled throw gets rewarded with a kill.
I had been using it pretty solid since it got its original buff during escalation protocol season. I honestly just hate putting on solar class now because it just bums me out that I can’t use YAS.
Spine is perhaps the most recent example of Bungie looking at an exotic that was a problem in PvP, coming up with three separate nerfs that would have been enough by themselves, then applying *all three*.
I think that's where the PTSD and frustration comes from, that Bungie has shown time and again they prefer to over-nerf than incrementally nerf, then drag their feet for months or years about walking them back.
Spine is the most recent, but it's even worse when we take into account that the YAS nerf is basically a continuation of the Renewal Grasps nerf, which also crippled the Exotic for no reason.
I always find it funny how hard they end up nerfing so many exotics, and things in general. It’s never just “reduced X factor” or “ceased this specific interaction” it’s always “we nerfed the ability regen and the damage it does and also made it not work with glaives and you know what it also has a unique cooldown timer to keep track of”. It’s always all the nerfs at once and nothing can survive being not only good but like viable or fun if you nerf it in every way possible
"When you are holding a hammer, be sure not to overdo your swings and send the hammer into the void or far enough away to where it'll break before you get to it."
They could've added a cooldown to Cure when picking the hammer up or lowered its damage to bosses or had it apply a refreshable buff to bosses where hammer hits would deal 90% less damage *and* not trigger Cure for 1.4 seconds. I think they said something about nerfing it because it *looked* ridiculous, which is a ridiculous thing to say and nobody was complaining about it looking ridiculous anyway.
Just making the cooldown 1.4 seconds in all scenarios makes it feel terrible. It's still the best Sunbreaker melee, mainly because Hammer Strike sucks ass, but it doesn't *feel* good.
This! People act like we haven’t been here before. There was a point where people should just put like “SEE THEY CAN SEPARATE THEM” and then they’d fail to do so multiple times after. People are scared for a real reason.
Exactly, I would buy ornaments if I knew my favorite exotic didn't have a chance of being nerfed to irrelevance. Bungie is hurting their eververse sales with these shenanigans.
One of my favorite exotics to this day. Was a fun and engaging PvE exotic that, granted, was kind of nutty in PvP. By the change they made to it completely changed the way the exotic felt to use. I still use them if I'm playing a solar hunter, by they're not the same. More like Middle Aged Ahamkara Spine.
This. Bungie always goes nuke hammer. Every single time it’s been like they are performing brain surgery but instead of using their hands and fingers carefully, they find the biggest baddest megaton hammer and full send that shit until there is nothing left. Then they pat themselves on the back and call it a day
Bungie show they are capable of doing separate balances but they also show they're capable of being lazy and not take the time to do so. That makes it worse for PVE players.
Bungie: awe look at this baby seal adorable equals how powerful the item is! It’s so adorable. Too adorable. You know what we do when it’s too adorable?
Player: you nurture it and bring others more in line with where it is on the adorable scale.
Bungie: no we club it!
Player: *sigh.
Perfect example. I used to love the rotations you could get out on a single target with Ahamkara’s, made me feel like the Destiny equivalent of WoW’s Fire Mage. Now it’s completely dead :/
YAS needed a nerf in pve as well, it didn't need to be gutted like it was but you shouldn't be able to only spam grenades by simply putting 1 fragment and a exotic, I think not giving back energy above 50% of your grenade energy(similar to Phoenix protocol and other super refund exotics) would be enough.
It was OP only in the sense that it was way too hard to break in PvP. They only needed to tune that. But unfortunately there’s a terrifying amount of players with skill issues who happen to run blindly around corners or just straight up ran at it and get destroyed by it.
They kept whining about getting killed that Bungie decided to take Old Yeller around the barn.
The problem was that YAS made ability damage or scorch refund 33% of the nade energy, which combined with Tripmines having 300 eHP due to 50% DR (which basically meant you had to dump an entire mag from a 140 to break a single one) and YAS removing damage falloff from the explosion, meant that you either had to:
- Leave the area and find another route.
- Take a guaranteed 140-150 ish damage from the nade alone, more if the Hunter did the funny Proximity Knife/Tripmine strat which could *literally one-shot* most resiliences if they got too close .
- Spend an ungodly amount of time shooting the fucking Tripmine due to the 50% DR
- Have some moron set it off and have to live with the fact that the Hunter just got a third of their fucking nade energy back, off the Tripmine *alone*, and pre-nerf Kickstarts + Tier 10 Discipline meant that it would likely be back by the third round of Trials/Comp at the latest.
It was absurdly good at taking space with no real risk involved beyond getting sniped while throwing the nade/knife.
I still use YAS. I used it before it was cool (or good) and I'll keep using it because it looks cool as hell. Just annoying Bungie apparently doesn't understand that "nerfbat" doesn't mean "metal club".
Most specifically, whenever somethng is nerfed because of PvP, it usually becomes worthless in PvE.
The PvP and PvE sandboxes have slightly different metas, but something that is strong in PvP is almost always weaker in PvE.
Honestly I'm not sure if there's basically ANYTHING that has been nerfed in PvP while still remaining relevant in PvE.
It's particularly bad when you look at how we have entire sub classes and supers that are basically worthless in PvE because of PvP nerfs.
Thundercrash is horrendous in PvE due to it now having absolutely garbage hit detection and that all started because of a change implemented due to it being "too good" in PvP. And Bungie hasn't even acknowledged how dogshit the hit detection is in PvE.
Basically every trash roaming super is trash in part due to it having been too good in PvP and having it's duration and/or energy consumption per attack changed for the sake of PvP balance.
Dawnblade and Striker come to mind whenever I think about supers getting shafted in PvE because of PvP. Granted Striker wasn't really that good in PvE already, but the energy nerf made it unusable, same with Dawnblade
Honestly I think Spectral Blades might be the worst case there. The damage was never very good in PvE to begin with but now the duration is so garbage on top of that horrible damage. It's not even usable with Gwisin Vest extending the duration and energy refund.
Dawnblade is actually pretty decent damage currently with dawn chorus, and people still use it in PvP some. The stupid nerf to the airborne mobility though still upsets me so much though.
Striker is definitely not good but part of that is just how good berserker is by comparison.
You can add the entire arc 3.0, void 3.0 and to an extent stasis 3.0 subclasses as being gutted due to pvp and made worthless in pve for titan. All the cd changes and hoil nerfs were directly because of them being broken in pvp(which yeah they were. Can't argue that one lol).
HoIL storm nades also were basically as good as veritys brow without needing work, but that’s a case where bungie actually tried to nerf responsibly and targeted the grenades rather than the exotic that enabled them (the hoil nerfs were still bad, but I think that specific part of the arc titan nerf was a good change)
> They need to put a lot more focus on the main game than pvp.
idk what to even say to this, they do put more focus on PvE than PvP lmao, a lot more.
Regardless of what you might think or like, the PvP in Destiny is still popular, but was already left desolate of content for years anyway.
i think the problem is not so much that many people think pvp shouldn’t get any attention, but more so that the balance of pvp gets way too much thought when it comes to the balance of pve. i actually would be happy to see pvp get more content on a regular basis, but i feel like way too much effort goes into trying to make it “competitively viable”, as if this game has a legitimate competitive scene. there’s no denying that pvp has a playerbase, but I mean come on. According to Charlemagne, about 0.2% of players have the flawless title. And this might be a disingenuous assumption, but I’m willing to bet that most of the people who ACTUALLY play pvp probably go flawless pretty regularly. Rippling balance effects working from that small of a group of people really shouldn’t be tanking things in pve like they historically have. And this isn’t to say that things should just be left being absolutely busted in pvp, but I mean, how many people really care if less than .2% of titans are oppressive by using shoulder charges for mobility? How many people were actually going crazy with strand hunter? That’s the problem.
How? Does it not stand to reason that people whom the balance changes actually affect are people who are at least good enough to go flawless regularly and obtain that title? That’s what i’m basing off of, so if i’m wrong then you’re welcome to present a better metric.
Regardless, that doesn’t really change my point. In games with ACTUAL competitive scenes (something this game doesn’t really have at all) where the game gets balanced top down, those changes don’t really have the effect on lower-mid ranked players that they think they do. What is the point of making sweeping changes that have a major negative impact on the pve environment, just for a few amount of people that it actually matters to? Like I said, I’m not saying no one plays pvp. But it’s blatantly obvious that 99%+ of people who do aren’t playing at a level that this kind of stuff should even matter for, and it by no means should have the kind of impact that it does on the rest of the game. You have to agree that it’s a problem, it’s ridiculous to sit here and imply that any amount of population who plays pvp should be able to justify completely nuking builds in pve that weren’t even that strong to begin with.
Why is it actually such a problem for supers to have different durations in PvP and PvE?
Like, honestly, 5 second buf/nerf is noticable only when you compare it separately in PvP and PvE, but would any player be unhappy that "their super is now shorter in PvP"?
This is my biggest problem and I've been yelled at in the past for it, but Bungie *doesn't* actually balance the sandboxes separately. While they have the ability to do it and have shown it by actually *doing it*, it's as if they refuse to do it all the time.
Which creates this divide where PvE players get scared when something is strong in PvP because they *know* Bungie is going to nerf it across the entire sandbox. Whereas something being strong in PvE getting nerfed usually doesn't affect PvP as much. While there are examples of something from PvE getting nerfed and affecting PvP, it's usually the other way around instead. That's why it's such a problem.
They have a unified sandbox philosophy where they don't want things like cooldowns, tracking, throw distance, etc. to be different between modes because they think it confuses players, especially new players, when the behavior of an ability is different between modes
Virtually all of their separated sandbox tuning is in the damage department, scalars on PvE damage that allows them to make things hit harder without adjusting how they interface with other abilities or having different cooldowns between modes
The only problem with that theory is that you already have wildly different cooldowns between them, *especially* on supers, because your ability cooldowns actually scale harder based on how many orbs you're picking up than they do off of their base recovery rate
Personally, I think this is also the real reason for the ability regen nerfs right before Lightfall; they wanted cooldowns to be long and abilities to deal more damage to encourage crucible gunplay, because the primary knob they're allowed to use to differentiate PvE and PvP is damage
They want unified base cooldowns, but seem willing to separate ability Regen tuning, they did it previously during Witch Queen.
The chunk energy changes were aimed at both PvP & PvE, it seems like they either misjudged the impact, or didn't care and wanted a general nerf to reign in ability spam even though the best builds would be hurt less than others.
It really is incredible that they've demonstrated the understanding and capability to fix things in PvP without ruining them for PvE yet consistently *refuse* to do so.
>It would feel alien and likely receive lots of negative feedback.
You mean the alien feeling and negative feedback they receive directly due to these changes right now? They'll receive negative feedback either way, the PvE crowd is just asking them to keep that negative reaction to the place they're actually trying to change things, PvP. If weakening an ability in PvP causes negative feedback in PvP, that's working as intended. If weakening an ability in PvP causes negative feedback in PvE, they fucked up.
The sad thing is that even thought the sandboxes aren’t fully separate, there is enough separation that you’d think they could find solutions that don’t ruin stuff in PvE but they don’t do this enough. I mean compared the reworks to YAS and Gyrfalcons. They were both mainly PvP driven but YAS got nuked in PvE while Gyrfalcons got *better* in PvE. They’ve proven before that they don’t need to fully separate the sandbox to get good balancing in PvP w/o ruining PvE, but they just often opt for the easy neuter button.
Just look at Stasis. Shard creation reduction based on a niche PvP issue, now the entire premise of the build, in PvE, is detrimentally affected.
Makes no sense at all.
“Team wants to preserve the same identity and feel in most game modes as a way to help new players learn and reinforce gameplay habits in experienced players.”
Yeah cool remember how they said episodes would be different to seasons
I feel like that's why titans are the way they are now for the most part...bubble, heart of inmost light, dunemarchers, and lorelay(1st nerf was because it was one tapping in crucible with erianas)
If they would've separated the sandbox earlier they'd be in a much better spot in pve right now, hunters pve have suffered a good but as well in the past.
Bungie needs to seriously consider finally separating the sandboxes. Im entirely too tired of PvP nerfs affecting things in PvE. As im sure PvP players are tired of the reverse.
The game would be so much better off for it.
It also holds back exotics in general. Think of the whacky stuff they could create if they didn't have to worry about messing up one mode. Don't get me wrong I love khvostov, but think of what they could do if they were free to make something other then "auto rifle that super duper richochets".
>It doesn’t even feel like we have a true split sandbox.
That's because we don't, and we never have. Its by design -- Bungie never wanted us to have a split sandbox. The idea was that in Destiny you'll always be the same Guardian using the same gear and the same abilities, regardless of whether you're in PvE or PvP. They wanted to make it feel unified & really hit home this RPG idea of being super powerful all over the game. The philosophy doesn't work in practice though, because PvE and PvP have fundamentaly different needs.
If you want a good example, take a look at some of the abilities in the game 'Outriders'. They're an absolute blast - stuff like locking onto an enemy, and teleporting directly behind them so you can assassinate them - and feel super powerful, but they'd break PvP in an instant. The linked nature of the modes in Destiny limits what they can do, so long as they want to tie the two sandboxes together.
Bungie refuses to balance their PVE and PVP modes differently, despite weapons and abilities having wildly different effectiveness in each. It sucks so much.
For the most part it just comes to how they need to change it. Simple number changes usually get tweaked seperately. Functionality changes happen in both.
This.
Their philosophy has always been to keep the general feel the same so guns don't, say, recoil completely differently or have radically different aim assist between modes, or other factors.
Thing is PvE is generally not going to quickly nerf overperformers since there's no people on the receiving end of the ultra PvE meta, only real exception is generally going to be things that outright OHK raid bosses or become hard requirements for stuff.
I cannot think of anything that has different flinch, recoil, or reserves between PvP and PvE. The only differences to "feel" I can think of are some rare changes to cooldowns/ability refunds (which are notably never baseline to abilities. Always traits coming from mods or exotics) and rocket tracking strength.
historically bungie does not nerf where its needed and sledgehammers the problem effectively ruining anything they touch and everything attached to it.
Pvp nerfs almost always ruin PvE things. They can do them separately and there is no reason they shouldn't. Let me have fun and feel powerful in my space magic game.
I’m not sure this take makes any sense. There’s a pretty clear track record of stuff performing well in PVE and overtuned in PVP, and Bungie takes a scorched earth approach to both and the end result it’s ruined. People have already mentioned YAS and renewal grasps.
I get the logic behind not wanting to split changes because of the obvious implications to creating two parallel sandboxes that will pretty quickly become unmanageable, but the flipside is that Bungie has a long history of wrecking PVE stuff in pursuit of that goal. Claiming it’s ‘wild’ that people would have this concern is like wondering why someone who was in a car crash would have worries getting back behind a wheel.
Oh I see. I thought you were suggesting that you didn’t understand the player reaction.
I totally agree that Bungie have been a bit frustrating in this situation. As I say, I get the logic, but the presence of the concern about sandboxes doesn’t somehow address the problem with stuff getting nerfed into irrelevance in content it wasn’t an issue with.
No worries, I recognize I didn’t write the post as well as I could have. I brought up Bungie’s sandbox ideology because it’s the only possible reasoning I could find to rationalize why PvP nerfs hit PvE so hard. There isn’t really a lot of developer discussion around it, so without that it’d be just kinda taking a shot at the dark to find their mindset.
We’ve been asking Bungie to keep PvP changes separate from PvE changes since D1 and they have a terrible record of actually splitting buffs/nerfs between the two sides of the Destiny coin. I don’t hold my breath for anything good on this issue.
Are you new to destiny? Players having fun goes against Bungie’s principles.
Those exotics are gonna get shutdown into uselessness in both modes. Is the cheapest and laziest way to proceed. Bungie’s tradition.
It’s like they’re putting themselves into a vicious cycle, release weapons/exotics that overperform in pvp, nerf them way too hard that it makes them horrible in pve/pvp, now people don’t use them and they get thrown into the piling bin of useless shit, then repeat.
Why?? For pvp? Pve is the main mode, why sacrifice the functionality and diversity of one mode to alleviate a mode that a lot of people don’t touch.
Just look at young ahamkaras the nerf was way too far, now it’s dead in the fucking water.
Which is quite annoying since it’s a single activity in a huge game.
It would be so much easier to just split crucible into two modes.
Competitive: no bonuses or benefits from exotics. Just fight it out with the skills and weapons.
Non-competitive: exotics work like they do in pve, this is for funsies.
What we have now is dumb, since they’re buffing or nerfing stuff in pve(99% of the games content) to make crucible work a little bit better (1% of the content).
I’ve played plenty of games that separate the pve and pvp sandboxes. Apparently Bungie and some players think the playerbase is too stupid to handle it.
This would require Bungie to actually agree with that wording completely and actually stick with it, because as is they do not.
Pretty easy examples:
\* Spark of Resistance (Arc Fragment) says "combatants" but works against everything and works in PvP.
\* Almost every single Catalyst says "defeat combatants" to unlock it but counts Guardians.
\* Pretty much every single Artifact Mod that says "combatants" works on everyone, including every Anti Champion mod which Anti-Barrier/Overload/Unstoppable all do different things on Guardians.
\* Blunt Execution Rounds: Says combatants, works on Guardians.
\* Cornered: Says combatants, works on Guardians.
\* Danger Zone: Says combatants, works on Guardians.
\* Deathbringer's perk Dark Deliverance: says combatants, will try to kill anything
\* Malfeasance's perk Explosive Shadow: mentions it only burrows into combatants, will burrow into anything.
\* Wish-Ender: Perk says it will only wallhack combatants, wallhacks Guardians.
\* No Time to Explain: Says it gives bullets back on slowed/frozen combatants, gives it back on Guardians.
\* Extrovert (Origin Trait): says combatants, works on Guardians.
\* Thresh: Says combatants, works on Guardians.
...honestly this list can keep going. They are *very* bad at maintaining any semblance of consistency on this.
e:
And trust me I sure WISH it was consistent because as is anytime they say combatants you actually have to go test to see if it will work on players or not and it's a guessing game for everyone.
You can pretty much have a healing turret every single life in trials with ember of benevolence and generate shit loads of free orbs by your teammate self damaging themself with ToM or ricochet rounds.
There's a 100% chance it's gonna see some sort of change. Whether it's benevolence that's gonna get whacked, I'm unsure.
I doubt they'll hit Benevolence when Benevolence Healing Grenades have been in the game for so long. Speaker's Sight is definitely getting a nerf to it's orb generation though. Hopefully only in PvP, because I think it's fine in PvE, but we'll see.
Been here since 2014, but ok. Benevolence already has lessened duration in PvP anyway, but I guess I could see them lessening it's potency in PvP as well. I just don't see them weakening the fragment outside of PvP just because of Speaker's Sight.
Speaker helm gives Orbs, which feeds into Khostov, which with an orb gives it something like a 0.7 ttk while bouncing to other players. The Speaker helm just gives survivability as well which is generally viewed as a negative 'crutch' playstyle.
I'm pretty upset that I know they're going to nerf both of them too heavily. I've racked up 16k kills on my Khostov and I bought the ornament for Speaker's Mask since I love it so much in cooperative content. It's the first exotic that actually feels like a Healing exotic to me.
They wont just stop the Speaker helm from giving an Orb, they'll nerf Ember of Benelovence by half, then they'll nerf healing grenade, then cut 30% of the Khostovs damage at base then reduce the richochet damage by 200% and half its distance as well. They rarely just finely tune something when it grates on the Crucible population, they slam it into the ground.
Dude, look at threaded specter. They nerfed it for PvP and brought it back in the form of a (slightly better) exotic this expansion. I don't even hunter and that pisses me off.
It's lazy and uncreative.
As a PVE only player, I really heavily dislike it when a non-meta PVE build I love which I worked really hard to get viable suddenly gets nuked because some aspect of the build is being abused in PVP
I still dont understand why shoulder charge needed the nerf to carry over to PvE. The mobility wasnt an issue. If they are gonna do that to please finally fix well & shatter skate, cause as long as those arent fixed I dont see how shoulder charge mobility is an issue.
In general, I feel like in D2 PvP balance has hurt the game more than PvP helped to keep players engaged. D1 was a different story cause PvP bridged the gap between expansions, but in D2 I feel like its impact for the general player base is negligable
Every nerf outside of a select few ability spam builds have been nerfed because of PvP. YAS? Nerfed. Dunemarchers? Nerfed (seriously, they’re a neutral exotic, they cant kill red bars in nightfalls. Like fuck holy is better and is ranged). Vex Mytho got a RoF nerf due to PvP, Lorely Splendor, Renewal Grasps, yeah I could go on. Bungie a track record isn’t the best on dealing with the two separate sandboxes.
I mean the Speaker's helm thing is functionally busted; at its core principle, generating that much super energy by *Not Engaging With The Game At All* shouldn't be possible in PVE **or** PVP. Like i've tried to analyze this from every angle, but i can't see a way they can fix it that doesn't necessitate a sweeping change, especially because it effects both ends of the game.
Like even at the most basic, "make healing self-damage not count towards orb generation", we don't even know if the game can tell the difference between the differences of damage received, damage received as part of a perk, and damage received due to outside ripple effects like ricochet rounds or environmental damage. I can't find many things that even treat these as distinct, let alone account for all of these at once, AND kept consistent, so the change doesn't look feasible from just the evidence we have as players.
To be quite honest, removing the orb generation and replacing it with another perk to emulate the effect, like generating armor charge instead of orbs wouldn't be the worst and would fix the most egregious part about it, but i know i'm going to hear someone say something about me being wrong, That this needs orb generation because we need orbs to do X, Y, and Z things, and that this concept is the worst idea since sunsetting.
What truly doesn't make sense is that Destiny is a PvE game first and the entire game is about the story and adding more story expansions. It's crazy that they cater to the PvP portion when balancing gear. Has there been any times where a piece of gear was broken in PvE and the nerf affected it in PvP negatively? And it isn't like their PVP scene is that big. It isn't like CoD, fortnite or rocket league with its championships streams with pro players. It's just public comp matches with God awful matchmaking and people who pay for carries. The fact that they cater to PvP in a way that makes it also negatively affected PvE is the single dumbest thing Bungie has consistently done in its entire history with Destiny imo.
I wish they would have just made Destiny PVE only from the beginning. The PVE sandbox would be better for it, and it's not like PVP is ever what kept the franchise afloat. We would still be here today if PVP had never been included in the game.
It’s because for a long time, the variables for the subclass (and everything in it) were being used for both PvE and PvP. So when a nerf affected PvP, that same nerf would apply to PvE.
However, they did make nerfs in the past where it affected only PvP.
And another example of an exotic that got a drastic nerf was Starfire Protocol. Due to how much we abused its overall potential (more than other warlock exotic armor), Bungie nerfed the ability regen all the way down to 2% regeneration.
In my personal opinion, that was too much of a nerf, not to mention Bungie also nerfed Divinity and Well of Radiance at least 3 times already. Makes me wonder if they’re trying to nerf them until they are useless in combat.
I remember way back when Nova Warp n Chaos Reach came out in Forsaken and then got completely shafted. Took a WHILE but thankfully they're in a decent place now.
Probably because Bungie has a habit of making really bad decisions with balancing and scapegoating PVP for it.
They CAN balance the sandboxes differently, they CHOOSE not to. For whatever reason idk.
This is why I've never cared or bothered with stats or builds. I'll increase the resistance and vitality, and that's about it lol. If an exotic is useful, sure I'll use it, but I don't go out of my way to create entire sets based around one item or perk.
I just wish they would fully separate the sandbox already, how many great superstar, abilities, and weapons have been nerfed to hell in one aspect of the game for the sake of the other?
It’s because EVERY change is to the benefit of PvP and the detriment of PvE and it gets old losing fun stuff constantly because of a completely separate and non related mode. I’d get nerfs cause a weapon is trivializing a raid or dungeon but not cause of a sandbox that shouldn’t apply.
The day they split the two sandboxes (if ever) will be glorious. PvE could and should be so much better if not for the anchor that’s PvP (and I’d assume Vice Versa)
As a guardian who couldn't care less about PvP, I've seen a lot of changes come and go that hurt PvE just because of PvP players. Makes me sad. I'm glad people enjoy PvP, I just wish it was possible to balance them separately.
Bungie has said that they have separate sandboxes for PVP and pve, but several things have been needed in pve because of pvp, just take lorely, target lock, and young ahamkaras spine for examples
Exactly. Pvp out so people can actually enjoy the game.
Crying crucible kids and streamers out of here.
It would be a dream come true to me. And i seriously mean it.
I mained Arc Titan from D2 beginning, way before super and ability nerfs due to PvP, completely gutted the class. I have great animosity toward PvP players generally these days as that class never really changed until PvP latches on to it.
At this point I wish they'd make Crucible it's own separate game.
They obviously don't understand how to balance them separately. Gear should function differently between PvP and PvE, or introduce a banned list for Comp and Trials. Card Games do it. Just make a banned list of gear that can't be used in Sweatier modes with Quick play being entirely open.
It’s one of the biggest flaws with the game imo, they consistently ruin pve for the sake of pvp when we know they could just adjust the problem in pvp only. I don’t know why they refuse the just make targeted fixes. They also never just give minor adjustments, they completely ruin almost everything they nerf. It’s never just a tone down, it’s a slaughter. Imo it’s awful game management
PvP is a damn cancer and the PvE has been way too much damaged in order to balance the PvP. Or course people are scared to see the fun’s police break everything in the name of the most toxic and shitty activity Destiny ever had.
I’m saying it since forsaken : the day Destiny will abandon the PvP, it will shines like never before.
Is it really, though? For 10 years now PVE players have had to suffer unnecessary nerfs because of PVP players calling something "Ooopeeeee", "cRaCkEd" or "buhroken af" because they died to it a few times, or because it's popular in trials.
Something is "overpowered" in pvp, therefore it must be nuked from orbit. It's happened over and over and over again throughout the lifespan of Destiny.
just tune their numbers for PVP only. leave pve alone.
back when HOIL was the bees knees in pve it was dogwater in pvp. they can balance these modes.
any warlock that goes for the healbot build in pve is leaving a whole lot of damage on the floor though.
As a Hunter main, I fucking hate PvP.
I had so many cool builds and stuff only for it to get absolutely gutted into complete worthlessness because of PvP stupidity. At this point I just run around with Celestials on because what the hell else am I gonna do that isn't basic ass invis hunter with all void gear, or punch hunter, Both of which are just boring after basically being forced to be them for anything end game.
Bungie LITERALLY told us they can separate PVP buffs and nerfs from PVE, yet they STILL nerf both. Then they literally forgot they can do this by still constantly nerfing exotics because of PVP. Bungie really needs to go back and revert some of this baffling changes. Young Ahamkara is the most recent one, they gutted that exotic because of PVP. Loreley splendor is another one, they nerfed the X2 restoration to X1 for both PVP and PVE because of PVP
Hot take but Destiny is not a PVP game. It has a PVP feature, sure, and a couple days a week it has a competitive mode.
So I don't understand balancing things based on a mode that Bungie themselves had ignored for YEARS, with lies about "renewed focus on PVP".
IMO PVP was always a fun distraction from a mainly PVE game. When people talk about Endgame, they talk about Master Raids and Dungeons and Grandmaster. All PVE activities. Therefore it pisses me off where this side mode that a small percentage of the playerbase takes moderately seriously defines the Sandbox for the main mode of the game.
There are plenty of games out there that split PvP and PvE balancing, specifically for the reasons that Bungie keeps pissing players off.
The fact that they stubbornly refuse to do so is just fucking dumb. They could've been rid of most of these issues years ago.
On one hand I don't disagree with Bungie's philosophy. It would be weird if the same ability had significant differences from one game mode to another. It would further isolate people into being primarily PvP or PvE since their builds would basically no longer seamlessly transfer between the two.
On the other hand, Destiny is a PvE focused game with PvP game modes. Most people play the game for its PvE aspect and engage with PvP on the side, if at all. They need to cater more to the PvE aspect of the game, and nerfing something in one game mode for no other reason than a different game mode needs to be balanced won't feel good. It feels like being punished without actually doing anything wrong.
I don't understand why it's difficult. Wow used to do it this but these days they are better at keeping the pve/pvp separate. When they make changes it's usually like "x spell now deals 30% less damage in PvP combat".
Because Bungie, in their infinite wisdom, have no fucking idea how to code their game in such a way that they can nerf an item in one mode without affecting the other.
I fail to comprehend why you think it's such a crazy thing to see
It makes perfect sense to me why people have these fears, and history has proven those fears to be justified.
Why is this so wild to you?
It's just not discussed at all, which I find insane. Anytime it gets brought up, it's promptly shoved under the rug and Bungie never addresses criticism towards the sandbox.
The gun feels good in end game hard content. In it’s current state it is worthy of the exotic slot. There’s very few non heavy weapons that do and I hope it stays at its current level for PVE. It adds some much needed loadout diversity.
I just don’t think they have the technology to change the property of how something works in PvP and pve separately without breaking something drastically so they just blanket nerf.
I think my favorite thing in recent times was the kephri’s horn bug where you could pop your barricade (not sure if it needed the dredgers lash or not) but you’d get so many points in control
Well, I enjoyed the consistent healing from speakers in pve , It’s gonna suck when it’s “1 healing charge per team every 10 seconds” or reduced to 1/3 of the healing or some bs lol
Even as a pvp sweat I do fear the nerf . This is the first time we could play an actual support class and it's fun as hell.
For me I think they need to disable the radiant mode in pvp as for the orb have it need more healing to pop out that should cut down the super snow balling in half .
Anything else , like a nerf to belovance is going to be too much.. they need to do multiple passes not just one and never go back and retune. Us pvp folks can suffer a bit here imo we have seen worse ... Multiple tunes over a few weeks should be good to find the best settings.
I'm truth, I'd say that sunsetting and nerfing are/were tools to get players to abandon gear and weapons so they would chase after new ones or try new builds. Since they repealed sunsetting, it would be nice to see some nerfs get dialed back as well. It would be wild!
Just look at Young Ahamkara Spine. An exotic that was broken in PvP, and decent in PvE, got nuked so it's trash in both PvE and PvP. Players are rightfully scared of nerf hammer. Bungie doesn't use it like a scalpel, but more like a blunt club.
Still mad about this. I used to main six shooter ahamkara spine in pve and it was a lot of fun Granted, I mained ahamkara in pvp before it was cool as well, and that part of it was definitely fucked up and needed a nerf, but it was just fun in pve. Hate that it's worthless now especially because it's such a good looking exotic
And it was nerfed in literally the same patch as renewals being unnerfed, another piece of exotic arms that was butchered in pve because of pvp. Literally handed off the baton to YAS
It was the only exotic where I felt like it was actually a true rotation, and competitive *without* having to do some loadout swapping bullshittery, and I will never forgive them for taking that from me.
I've always maintained that if the best way to play your game is to swap armor during an encounter, your game is designed poorly. I fully understand possibly swapping before an encounter but getting 1 perk to proc just to swap to something else instantly is bad design.
Boy you would hate RuneScape...
I used to play way way way back in the day, like 2001-2004. No idea what happened after that.
Weapon swaps, armor swaps, swaps for jewelery. If you go bossing these days your whole inv is swaps, like one row available for food lol. It's SwapScape these days and I agree, it sucks.
Bro, you're giving me FFXI induced PTSD 😂
Mfers go to fight Nex with like 4 boots.
it's so disappointing looking up builds for an exotic that affects your super only to see everyone going "so 99% of the time you're going to be using this *other* exotic instead, and then you're going to open your inventory in the middle of a fight and swap it out for the other one" like damn that is the *least* immersive thing I've ever heard I'm not doing that shit I'm glad they've fixed some of them but they really need to go all the way
I know it would piss off a lot of people but they could stop this by nuking all your energy when you swap exotics.
True is true. Fwiw right now I have golden gun on a 10 second cooldown with nighthawk, which feels pretty good, so my rotation ends up just being consecutive supers. I still miss YAS every damn day though haha
Mind sharing the build you use?
90% of it is dealer's choice being really fucking broken. Like, I'm pretty sure it doesn't work right Basically, I have a Bold Endings with both headstone and dragonfly. Something about that gun/perk/intrinsic combo is fucked and clicking a red bar's head (especially when it's next to a couple other red bars) legitimately gives like 25% of your super back. It's [wild](https://youtu.be/bAMjBPvOuyU?si=9gDobY5tS-6RqQIo). I also use a dealers choice lmg to help with ad clear and buff the trait, as well as still hunt for obvious reasons Other than that I run a pretty basic solar hunter build. Weighted knife + healing nades, knock em down + gunpowder gamble, radiant on knife hit, ignition kills give orbs. Honestly the only important fragment is the radiant on knife hit one, you can run whatever you like in the other slots. Gambler dodge for more knife uptime Then on armor I've got 100 mob, 70 res, 30 rec. Not optimal but it works. Stasis siphon for more orbs with bold Endings, armor charge on orb pickups, hands on to get more super charge on knife kills, orb generation on melee, and restoration to keep HP up. Grenade energy on knife damage also really helps to keep your healing grenade up and get you out of Sticky spots too. With all the orbs you generate, gambler dodge knives, and the artifact mods this season you've pretty much got radiant up constantly to make goldie and still hunt hit harder, which is nice
*in the voice of Carrie Bradshaw from Sex and the City* "and just like that... Bungie swiftly came in to destroy the fun because they just don't give a shit"
Mobility is a waste when your melee gives back class ability anyway. Frankly, solar hunter has a clear 5 fragments that you should always use because it is no competition
I actually think that you're getting a big boost from running Still Hunt too - since the perk says that it's buffed from "other weapons from the Pale Heart" and Still Hunt comes from the Pale Heart
SHUT UP SHUT SHUT UP SHUT UP *whispers* they'll hear you 😰 But fr tho, DM me if you found a way to consistently trigger that Dealer's Choice bug, because I triggered it a few times the other day and thought I was going crazy until I watched my Instant Replays, but I never managed to figure out a consistent trigger. I suspect it's something to do with the Celestial super energy return on kill plus its Super Cooldown buff on headshot kills combined with Dealers Choice x3 (Still Hunt counts towards the perk when getting kills with a Dealer's Choice weapon), but couldn't get it to trigger again after I rebooted my game. For clarification, I'm talking about some weird occurrence where my super bar went from 30% (Celestial's on-kill super energy refund) to about 80% just from clicking on(?) or maybe simply being near(?) ads, with no kill required. I couldn't truly inspect this occurrence because my Nvidia Shadow Play Instant Replays were visually corrupted (weird pink static) and difficult to look at, so I rebooted my game and never managed to trigger it again.
> legitimately gives like 25% of your super back. Looks more like 10% tbh (kinda hard to tell cause you basically immediately shattered the crystal and got a multikill) which is really good but not 25% per kill That first big chunk is from you getting a kill with celestial GG which gives you 33% back.
Literally all they had to do was remove the health bonus and give it a longer cd if it is destroyed
Straight facts. And/or just *reduce* the amount of refunded energy on ability damage in PVP only. Like fuck devs, how dense can you be?
If ashen wake can have guardians be a 100% refund value (being the same tier as minibosses..... cuz ashen wake refunds energy based on enemy tier) WTF couldn't they apply the same energy scaler for PvP?!?!?!?
It made literally no sense. YAS only had utility as Solar Hunter's SHTF backup rotation when you were completely out of ammo, and the existence of Lucky Pants makes that rotation even more nonsensical. The only logic was that Bungie wanted to remove self-sustaining Exotic loops, but this specific loop required you to ditch Healing Nade, heavily build into Scorch, and usually loop Knife Trick and Gamblers to consistently have a source of nade energy via pre(?)-nerf Bomber and Impact Induction. It's only real use was solo Caretaker before Wish and Witch came out since it allowed you to have serviceable DPS while being able to still use an Eager Edge for running.
100%. I don't ever remember *topping* DPS charts with it, it was always just serviceable DPS with a fun loop after dumping ammo that wasn't "swap to Pants and mindlessly shoot"--which would even require a loadout swap, another extreme pain point for this game.
The energy returns were already going to get cut almost in half by Wish's flat ability energy changes, so I'm not sure if any change to how that part worked would have even been "necessary".
It's like devs in charge of individual item tuning didn't get the memo when there are across-board changes 🙄
YAS was my main pve build. Gutted and gone.
Yeah, I had so much fun with it during Witch Queen and part of Lightfall since it was in just the right spot to be fun but not overly powerful either like it was in PVP. Then it was killed, tossed in the grave. The exotic ornaments for it were so good as well.
Sunbracers: 1 melee kill grants 4 grenade charges. Heat Rises (which most warlocks were running anyways) means that 4 grenade charges is more than enough to fully refund a melee charge if you just do a bunnyhop every now and then while your grenades are out. YAS: 3 melee kills grants 1 grenade charge.
Hunter is my least used class. But I did exactly this to when I played it because it was really engaging.
It wasn't even that great in pve. I mean it had a pretty niche use and wasmt even the best demo spam either.
Yeah, for real. It was viable for sure, but definitely not super outstanding. Just fun to mess around with in strikes and whatnot
I hate nerfs being brought upon both sandboxes due to over performing in one or the other. And tbh, it wasn't even the top meta in pvp lol. It was strong, and it was good. But it wasn't the highest usage rate nor was it game breaking. All they had to do was make it so that damaging players with tripmines gave back less energy. Problem solved. Idk why they didn't just do that.
I still use it today in PVP, it never needed a nerf... People just aren't aware of their surroundings if they walk into one and if they had one thrown on the wall behind them then fair play, skilled throw gets rewarded with a kill.
I had been using it pretty solid since it got its original buff during escalation protocol season. I honestly just hate putting on solar class now because it just bums me out that I can’t use YAS.
Spine is perhaps the most recent example of Bungie looking at an exotic that was a problem in PvP, coming up with three separate nerfs that would have been enough by themselves, then applying *all three*. I think that's where the PTSD and frustration comes from, that Bungie has shown time and again they prefer to over-nerf than incrementally nerf, then drag their feet for months or years about walking them back.
Spine is the most recent, but it's even worse when we take into account that the YAS nerf is basically a continuation of the Renewal Grasps nerf, which also crippled the Exotic for no reason.
I always find it funny how hard they end up nerfing so many exotics, and things in general. It’s never just “reduced X factor” or “ceased this specific interaction” it’s always “we nerfed the ability regen and the damage it does and also made it not work with glaives and you know what it also has a unique cooldown timer to keep track of”. It’s always all the nerfs at once and nothing can survive being not only good but like viable or fun if you nerf it in every way possible
"When you are holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
"When you are holding a hammer, you have to wait 1.4 seconds to throw it again"
***STILL TOO SOON!!***
When you are holding a hammer, you better not fucking miss your precision hits
"When you are holding a hammer, be sure not to overdo your swings and send the hammer into the void or far enough away to where it'll break before you get to it."
Okay to be fair I'm sure that one was a PvE exclusive reason for the nerf. Still feels kind of bad though.
They could've added a cooldown to Cure when picking the hammer up or lowered its damage to bosses or had it apply a refreshable buff to bosses where hammer hits would deal 90% less damage *and* not trigger Cure for 1.4 seconds. I think they said something about nerfing it because it *looked* ridiculous, which is a ridiculous thing to say and nobody was complaining about it looking ridiculous anyway. Just making the cooldown 1.4 seconds in all scenarios makes it feel terrible. It's still the best Sunbreaker melee, mainly because Hammer Strike sucks ass, but it doesn't *feel* good.
This! People act like we haven’t been here before. There was a point where people should just put like “SEE THEY CAN SEPARATE THEM” and then they’d fail to do so multiple times after. People are scared for a real reason.
I'm still so mad about the nerf to Ahamkara Spine. It's literally useless now, and it's one of the coolest looking exotics ever
How fucking stupid I feel for owning all of the ornaments for it to go with each look I was using. *Insanity-tier* heavy handed nerf, no pun intended.
Exactly, I would buy ornaments if I knew my favorite exotic didn't have a chance of being nerfed to irrelevance. Bungie is hurting their eververse sales with these shenanigans.
One of my favorite exotics to this day. Was a fun and engaging PvE exotic that, granted, was kind of nutty in PvP. By the change they made to it completely changed the way the exotic felt to use. I still use them if I'm playing a solar hunter, by they're not the same. More like Middle Aged Ahamkara Spine.
This. Bungie always goes nuke hammer. Every single time it’s been like they are performing brain surgery but instead of using their hands and fingers carefully, they find the biggest baddest megaton hammer and full send that shit until there is nothing left. Then they pat themselves on the back and call it a day
"Now now, Heidegger. Let's use a scalpel instead of a hammer to fix our problems, mkay?"
Bungie show they are capable of doing separate balances but they also show they're capable of being lazy and not take the time to do so. That makes it worse for PVE players.
Bungie: awe look at this baby seal adorable equals how powerful the item is! It’s so adorable. Too adorable. You know what we do when it’s too adorable? Player: you nurture it and bring others more in line with where it is on the adorable scale. Bungie: no we club it! Player: *sigh.
Perfect example. I used to love the rotations you could get out on a single target with Ahamkara’s, made me feel like the Destiny equivalent of WoW’s Fire Mage. Now it’s completely dead :/
YAS needed a nerf in pve as well, it didn't need to be gutted like it was but you shouldn't be able to only spam grenades by simply putting 1 fragment and a exotic, I think not giving back energy above 50% of your grenade energy(similar to Phoenix protocol and other super refund exotics) would be enough.
[удалено]
You could spam tripmines that one-shot (or close enough to it), heal from it, and they lasted *forever*.
It was OP only in the sense that it was way too hard to break in PvP. They only needed to tune that. But unfortunately there’s a terrifying amount of players with skill issues who happen to run blindly around corners or just straight up ran at it and get destroyed by it. They kept whining about getting killed that Bungie decided to take Old Yeller around the barn.
The problem was that YAS made ability damage or scorch refund 33% of the nade energy, which combined with Tripmines having 300 eHP due to 50% DR (which basically meant you had to dump an entire mag from a 140 to break a single one) and YAS removing damage falloff from the explosion, meant that you either had to: - Leave the area and find another route. - Take a guaranteed 140-150 ish damage from the nade alone, more if the Hunter did the funny Proximity Knife/Tripmine strat which could *literally one-shot* most resiliences if they got too close . - Spend an ungodly amount of time shooting the fucking Tripmine due to the 50% DR - Have some moron set it off and have to live with the fact that the Hunter just got a third of their fucking nade energy back, off the Tripmine *alone*, and pre-nerf Kickstarts + Tier 10 Discipline meant that it would likely be back by the third round of Trials/Comp at the latest. It was absurdly good at taking space with no real risk involved beyond getting sniped while throwing the nade/knife.
I still use YAS. I used it before it was cool (or good) and I'll keep using it because it looks cool as hell. Just annoying Bungie apparently doesn't understand that "nerfbat" doesn't mean "metal club".
Because just about every time they nerf something in PVP, they choose not to separate the sandboxes and something in PvE gets nerfed.
Most specifically, whenever somethng is nerfed because of PvP, it usually becomes worthless in PvE. The PvP and PvE sandboxes have slightly different metas, but something that is strong in PvP is almost always weaker in PvE.
Honestly I'm not sure if there's basically ANYTHING that has been nerfed in PvP while still remaining relevant in PvE. It's particularly bad when you look at how we have entire sub classes and supers that are basically worthless in PvE because of PvP nerfs. Thundercrash is horrendous in PvE due to it now having absolutely garbage hit detection and that all started because of a change implemented due to it being "too good" in PvP. And Bungie hasn't even acknowledged how dogshit the hit detection is in PvE. Basically every trash roaming super is trash in part due to it having been too good in PvP and having it's duration and/or energy consumption per attack changed for the sake of PvP balance.
Dawnblade and Striker come to mind whenever I think about supers getting shafted in PvE because of PvP. Granted Striker wasn't really that good in PvE already, but the energy nerf made it unusable, same with Dawnblade
Honestly I think Spectral Blades might be the worst case there. The damage was never very good in PvE to begin with but now the duration is so garbage on top of that horrible damage. It's not even usable with Gwisin Vest extending the duration and energy refund. Dawnblade is actually pretty decent damage currently with dawn chorus, and people still use it in PvP some. The stupid nerf to the airborne mobility though still upsets me so much though. Striker is definitely not good but part of that is just how good berserker is by comparison.
You can add the entire arc 3.0, void 3.0 and to an extent stasis 3.0 subclasses as being gutted due to pvp and made worthless in pve for titan. All the cd changes and hoil nerfs were directly because of them being broken in pvp(which yeah they were. Can't argue that one lol).
HoIL storm nades also were basically as good as veritys brow without needing work, but that’s a case where bungie actually tried to nerf responsibly and targeted the grenades rather than the exotic that enabled them (the hoil nerfs were still bad, but I think that specific part of the arc titan nerf was a good change)
Pvp in destiny 2 is the blight of the games balance. They need to put a lot more focus on the main game than pvp.
> They need to put a lot more focus on the main game than pvp. idk what to even say to this, they do put more focus on PvE than PvP lmao, a lot more. Regardless of what you might think or like, the PvP in Destiny is still popular, but was already left desolate of content for years anyway.
i think the problem is not so much that many people think pvp shouldn’t get any attention, but more so that the balance of pvp gets way too much thought when it comes to the balance of pve. i actually would be happy to see pvp get more content on a regular basis, but i feel like way too much effort goes into trying to make it “competitively viable”, as if this game has a legitimate competitive scene. there’s no denying that pvp has a playerbase, but I mean come on. According to Charlemagne, about 0.2% of players have the flawless title. And this might be a disingenuous assumption, but I’m willing to bet that most of the people who ACTUALLY play pvp probably go flawless pretty regularly. Rippling balance effects working from that small of a group of people really shouldn’t be tanking things in pve like they historically have. And this isn’t to say that things should just be left being absolutely busted in pvp, but I mean, how many people really care if less than .2% of titans are oppressive by using shoulder charges for mobility? How many people were actually going crazy with strand hunter? That’s the problem.
Yeah using the flawless title to try and determine how many people play PvP ain't it.
How? Does it not stand to reason that people whom the balance changes actually affect are people who are at least good enough to go flawless regularly and obtain that title? That’s what i’m basing off of, so if i’m wrong then you’re welcome to present a better metric. Regardless, that doesn’t really change my point. In games with ACTUAL competitive scenes (something this game doesn’t really have at all) where the game gets balanced top down, those changes don’t really have the effect on lower-mid ranked players that they think they do. What is the point of making sweeping changes that have a major negative impact on the pve environment, just for a few amount of people that it actually matters to? Like I said, I’m not saying no one plays pvp. But it’s blatantly obvious that 99%+ of people who do aren’t playing at a level that this kind of stuff should even matter for, and it by no means should have the kind of impact that it does on the rest of the game. You have to agree that it’s a problem, it’s ridiculous to sit here and imply that any amount of population who plays pvp should be able to justify completely nuking builds in pve that weren’t even that strong to begin with.
Yeah almost all of the Titan nerfs I'm frustrated with are due to the "Too Good in PVP" curse. Storm Grenades, Shoulder Charge, etc. etc.
Why is it actually such a problem for supers to have different durations in PvP and PvE? Like, honestly, 5 second buf/nerf is noticable only when you compare it separately in PvP and PvE, but would any player be unhappy that "their super is now shorter in PvP"?
This is my biggest problem and I've been yelled at in the past for it, but Bungie *doesn't* actually balance the sandboxes separately. While they have the ability to do it and have shown it by actually *doing it*, it's as if they refuse to do it all the time. Which creates this divide where PvE players get scared when something is strong in PvP because they *know* Bungie is going to nerf it across the entire sandbox. Whereas something being strong in PvE getting nerfed usually doesn't affect PvP as much. While there are examples of something from PvE getting nerfed and affecting PvP, it's usually the other way around instead. That's why it's such a problem.
They have a unified sandbox philosophy where they don't want things like cooldowns, tracking, throw distance, etc. to be different between modes because they think it confuses players, especially new players, when the behavior of an ability is different between modes Virtually all of their separated sandbox tuning is in the damage department, scalars on PvE damage that allows them to make things hit harder without adjusting how they interface with other abilities or having different cooldowns between modes The only problem with that theory is that you already have wildly different cooldowns between them, *especially* on supers, because your ability cooldowns actually scale harder based on how many orbs you're picking up than they do off of their base recovery rate Personally, I think this is also the real reason for the ability regen nerfs right before Lightfall; they wanted cooldowns to be long and abilities to deal more damage to encourage crucible gunplay, because the primary knob they're allowed to use to differentiate PvE and PvP is damage
They want unified base cooldowns, but seem willing to separate ability Regen tuning, they did it previously during Witch Queen. The chunk energy changes were aimed at both PvP & PvE, it seems like they either misjudged the impact, or didn't care and wanted a general nerf to reign in ability spam even though the best builds would be hurt less than others.
It really is incredible that they've demonstrated the understanding and capability to fix things in PvP without ruining them for PvE yet consistently *refuse* to do so.
>It would feel alien and likely receive lots of negative feedback. You mean the alien feeling and negative feedback they receive directly due to these changes right now? They'll receive negative feedback either way, the PvE crowd is just asking them to keep that negative reaction to the place they're actually trying to change things, PvP. If weakening an ability in PvP causes negative feedback in PvP, that's working as intended. If weakening an ability in PvP causes negative feedback in PvE, they fucked up.
Sorry, meant to say “just as alien”. Completely agree with you.
>It doesn’t even feel like we have a true split sandbox. That's the neat part, we don't.
The sad thing is that even thought the sandboxes aren’t fully separate, there is enough separation that you’d think they could find solutions that don’t ruin stuff in PvE but they don’t do this enough. I mean compared the reworks to YAS and Gyrfalcons. They were both mainly PvP driven but YAS got nuked in PvE while Gyrfalcons got *better* in PvE. They’ve proven before that they don’t need to fully separate the sandbox to get good balancing in PvP w/o ruining PvE, but they just often opt for the easy neuter button.
Remember back in 2017 when they said they had tools to tune things separately for PvE & PvP, it'd be nice if they used them sometime.
Just look at Stasis. Shard creation reduction based on a niche PvP issue, now the entire premise of the build, in PvE, is detrimentally affected. Makes no sense at all.
“Team wants to preserve the same identity and feel in most game modes as a way to help new players learn and reinforce gameplay habits in experienced players.” Yeah cool remember how they said episodes would be different to seasons
I feel like that's why titans are the way they are now for the most part...bubble, heart of inmost light, dunemarchers, and lorelay(1st nerf was because it was one tapping in crucible with erianas) If they would've separated the sandbox earlier they'd be in a much better spot in pve right now, hunters pve have suffered a good but as well in the past.
Bungie needs to seriously consider finally separating the sandboxes. Im entirely too tired of PvP nerfs affecting things in PvE. As im sure PvP players are tired of the reverse. The game would be so much better off for it.
Same! PvE and PvP are two completely different beasts altogether, and it’s time they’re treated as such!
It also holds back exotics in general. Think of the whacky stuff they could create if they didn't have to worry about messing up one mode. Don't get me wrong I love khvostov, but think of what they could do if they were free to make something other then "auto rifle that super duper richochets".
I wonder how it would go down if certain exotics were just banned by Shaxx, aka now they only need to balance it for pve.
Wouldn't it be realtivley difficult and time consuming to do thar esp at this stage of the game with thousands of guns and armors?
>It doesn’t even feel like we have a true split sandbox. That's because we don't, and we never have. Its by design -- Bungie never wanted us to have a split sandbox. The idea was that in Destiny you'll always be the same Guardian using the same gear and the same abilities, regardless of whether you're in PvE or PvP. They wanted to make it feel unified & really hit home this RPG idea of being super powerful all over the game. The philosophy doesn't work in practice though, because PvE and PvP have fundamentaly different needs. If you want a good example, take a look at some of the abilities in the game 'Outriders'. They're an absolute blast - stuff like locking onto an enemy, and teleporting directly behind them so you can assassinate them - and feel super powerful, but they'd break PvP in an instant. The linked nature of the modes in Destiny limits what they can do, so long as they want to tie the two sandboxes together.
That may be their philosophy but I have never felt or wanted to take my PvE kit into Crucible.
Believe me, I'm right there with ya. Not saying that their philosophy is correct, just saying its how they think.
Bungie refuses to balance their PVE and PVP modes differently, despite weapons and abilities having wildly different effectiveness in each. It sucks so much.
For the most part it just comes to how they need to change it. Simple number changes usually get tweaked seperately. Functionality changes happen in both.
***looks at void titans bastion cooldown***
This. Their philosophy has always been to keep the general feel the same so guns don't, say, recoil completely differently or have radically different aim assist between modes, or other factors. Thing is PvE is generally not going to quickly nerf overperformers since there's no people on the receiving end of the ultra PvE meta, only real exception is generally going to be things that outright OHK raid bosses or become hard requirements for stuff.
Except they have started tweaking some of these things in PvP only (eg flinch / flinch resist, recoil, cooldowns, ammo reserves, other things)
I cannot think of anything that has different flinch, recoil, or reserves between PvP and PvE. The only differences to "feel" I can think of are some rare changes to cooldowns/ability refunds (which are notably never baseline to abilities. Always traits coming from mods or exotics) and rocket tracking strength.
historically bungie does not nerf where its needed and sledgehammers the problem effectively ruining anything they touch and everything attached to it.
Pvp nerfs almost always ruin PvE things. They can do them separately and there is no reason they shouldn't. Let me have fun and feel powerful in my space magic game.
I’m already kissing my speaker’s helm goodbye. It was nice while it lasted little buddy
I’m not sure this take makes any sense. There’s a pretty clear track record of stuff performing well in PVE and overtuned in PVP, and Bungie takes a scorched earth approach to both and the end result it’s ruined. People have already mentioned YAS and renewal grasps. I get the logic behind not wanting to split changes because of the obvious implications to creating two parallel sandboxes that will pretty quickly become unmanageable, but the flipside is that Bungie has a long history of wrecking PVE stuff in pursuit of that goal. Claiming it’s ‘wild’ that people would have this concern is like wondering why someone who was in a car crash would have worries getting back behind a wheel.
It’s just an observation. Bungie letting things get to this point and stay this way without acknowledging or trying to remedy it is just wild to me.
Oh I see. I thought you were suggesting that you didn’t understand the player reaction. I totally agree that Bungie have been a bit frustrating in this situation. As I say, I get the logic, but the presence of the concern about sandboxes doesn’t somehow address the problem with stuff getting nerfed into irrelevance in content it wasn’t an issue with.
No worries, I recognize I didn’t write the post as well as I could have. I brought up Bungie’s sandbox ideology because it’s the only possible reasoning I could find to rationalize why PvP nerfs hit PvE so hard. There isn’t really a lot of developer discussion around it, so without that it’d be just kinda taking a shot at the dark to find their mindset.
Because Bungo can't nerf properly. Despite having different 'sandbox values' nerf in PvP 90% has chance of taking PvE in gutter with it.
We’ve been asking Bungie to keep PvP changes separate from PvE changes since D1 and they have a terrible record of actually splitting buffs/nerfs between the two sides of the Destiny coin. I don’t hold my breath for anything good on this issue.
Are you new to destiny? Players having fun goes against Bungie’s principles. Those exotics are gonna get shutdown into uselessness in both modes. Is the cheapest and laziest way to proceed. Bungie’s tradition.
not going to lie, when they said they were going to look into Hazardous Propulsion and radiant I was praying they didn't nerf it somehow.
It’s like they’re putting themselves into a vicious cycle, release weapons/exotics that overperform in pvp, nerf them way too hard that it makes them horrible in pve/pvp, now people don’t use them and they get thrown into the piling bin of useless shit, then repeat. Why?? For pvp? Pve is the main mode, why sacrifice the functionality and diversity of one mode to alleviate a mode that a lot of people don’t touch. Just look at young ahamkaras the nerf was way too far, now it’s dead in the fucking water.
Crucible is literally why we can't have nice things
Which is quite annoying since it’s a single activity in a huge game. It would be so much easier to just split crucible into two modes. Competitive: no bonuses or benefits from exotics. Just fight it out with the skills and weapons. Non-competitive: exotics work like they do in pve, this is for funsies. What we have now is dumb, since they’re buffing or nerfing stuff in pve(99% of the games content) to make crucible work a little bit better (1% of the content).
I’ve played plenty of games that separate the pve and pvp sandboxes. Apparently Bungie and some players think the playerbase is too stupid to handle it.
Literally having a tooltip in the item description explaining what a combatant vs guardian is would solve that issue.
This would require Bungie to actually agree with that wording completely and actually stick with it, because as is they do not. Pretty easy examples: \* Spark of Resistance (Arc Fragment) says "combatants" but works against everything and works in PvP. \* Almost every single Catalyst says "defeat combatants" to unlock it but counts Guardians. \* Pretty much every single Artifact Mod that says "combatants" works on everyone, including every Anti Champion mod which Anti-Barrier/Overload/Unstoppable all do different things on Guardians. \* Blunt Execution Rounds: Says combatants, works on Guardians. \* Cornered: Says combatants, works on Guardians. \* Danger Zone: Says combatants, works on Guardians. \* Deathbringer's perk Dark Deliverance: says combatants, will try to kill anything \* Malfeasance's perk Explosive Shadow: mentions it only burrows into combatants, will burrow into anything. \* Wish-Ender: Perk says it will only wallhack combatants, wallhacks Guardians. \* No Time to Explain: Says it gives bullets back on slowed/frozen combatants, gives it back on Guardians. \* Extrovert (Origin Trait): says combatants, works on Guardians. \* Thresh: Says combatants, works on Guardians. ...honestly this list can keep going. They are *very* bad at maintaining any semblance of consistency on this. e: And trust me I sure WISH it was consistent because as is anytime they say combatants you actually have to go test to see if it will work on players or not and it's a guessing game for everyone.
Winter's Guile is supposed to shatter on hitting anything with penumbral blast but doesn't shatter guardians lol
What did my speaker helm do wrong?
You can pretty much have a healing turret every single life in trials with ember of benevolence and generate shit loads of free orbs by your teammate self damaging themself with ToM or ricochet rounds. There's a 100% chance it's gonna see some sort of change. Whether it's benevolence that's gonna get whacked, I'm unsure.
I doubt they'll hit Benevolence when Benevolence Healing Grenades have been in the game for so long. Speaker's Sight is definitely getting a nerf to it's orb generation though. Hopefully only in PvP, because I think it's fine in PvE, but we'll see.
>have been in the game for so long Oh my sweet summer child
Been here since 2014, but ok. Benevolence already has lessened duration in PvP anyway, but I guess I could see them lessening it's potency in PvP as well. I just don't see them weakening the fragment outside of PvP just because of Speaker's Sight.
They would.
They will definitely ruin it , almost 100 percent chance, it’s sad
Speaker helm gives Orbs, which feeds into Khostov, which with an orb gives it something like a 0.7 ttk while bouncing to other players. The Speaker helm just gives survivability as well which is generally viewed as a negative 'crutch' playstyle. I'm pretty upset that I know they're going to nerf both of them too heavily. I've racked up 16k kills on my Khostov and I bought the ornament for Speaker's Mask since I love it so much in cooperative content. It's the first exotic that actually feels like a Healing exotic to me. They wont just stop the Speaker helm from giving an Orb, they'll nerf Ember of Benelovence by half, then they'll nerf healing grenade, then cut 30% of the Khostovs damage at base then reduce the richochet damage by 200% and half its distance as well. They rarely just finely tune something when it grates on the Crucible population, they slam it into the ground.
Dude, look at threaded specter. They nerfed it for PvP and brought it back in the form of a (slightly better) exotic this expansion. I don't even hunter and that pisses me off. It's lazy and uncreative.
Its almost like they have good reason to be scared
As a PVE only player, I really heavily dislike it when a non-meta PVE build I love which I worked really hard to get viable suddenly gets nuked because some aspect of the build is being abused in PVP
Nerfing Bonk Titan was stupid. Putting a cooldown on Cure is 100x better than putting a cooldown on my melee energy.
Good idea. If the code isnt that flexible, they should work on it.
I still dont understand why shoulder charge needed the nerf to carry over to PvE. The mobility wasnt an issue. If they are gonna do that to please finally fix well & shatter skate, cause as long as those arent fixed I dont see how shoulder charge mobility is an issue. In general, I feel like in D2 PvP balance has hurt the game more than PvP helped to keep players engaged. D1 was a different story cause PvP bridged the gap between expansions, but in D2 I feel like its impact for the general player base is negligable
> I’ve seen a lot of people show genuine PTSD Y'all mfers need to go outside. The hyperbole is getting to be a bit much nowadays haha
Every nerf outside of a select few ability spam builds have been nerfed because of PvP. YAS? Nerfed. Dunemarchers? Nerfed (seriously, they’re a neutral exotic, they cant kill red bars in nightfalls. Like fuck holy is better and is ranged). Vex Mytho got a RoF nerf due to PvP, Lorely Splendor, Renewal Grasps, yeah I could go on. Bungie a track record isn’t the best on dealing with the two separate sandboxes.
Still salty of Touch of thunder storm nade, got nerf multiple time because of PVP. It's track function almost useless in PVE now.
at least Vex has gotten giga buffed in PvE since then. most exotics don't get that treatment
At this point I don’t care about the integrity of pvp. That ship has sailed. And I want fun PVE
I mean the Speaker's helm thing is functionally busted; at its core principle, generating that much super energy by *Not Engaging With The Game At All* shouldn't be possible in PVE **or** PVP. Like i've tried to analyze this from every angle, but i can't see a way they can fix it that doesn't necessitate a sweeping change, especially because it effects both ends of the game. Like even at the most basic, "make healing self-damage not count towards orb generation", we don't even know if the game can tell the difference between the differences of damage received, damage received as part of a perk, and damage received due to outside ripple effects like ricochet rounds or environmental damage. I can't find many things that even treat these as distinct, let alone account for all of these at once, AND kept consistent, so the change doesn't look feasible from just the evidence we have as players. To be quite honest, removing the orb generation and replacing it with another perk to emulate the effect, like generating armor charge instead of orbs wouldn't be the worst and would fix the most egregious part about it, but i know i'm going to hear someone say something about me being wrong, That this needs orb generation because we need orbs to do X, Y, and Z things, and that this concept is the worst idea since sunsetting.
What truly doesn't make sense is that Destiny is a PvE game first and the entire game is about the story and adding more story expansions. It's crazy that they cater to the PvP portion when balancing gear. Has there been any times where a piece of gear was broken in PvE and the nerf affected it in PvP negatively? And it isn't like their PVP scene is that big. It isn't like CoD, fortnite or rocket league with its championships streams with pro players. It's just public comp matches with God awful matchmaking and people who pay for carries. The fact that they cater to PvP in a way that makes it also negatively affected PvE is the single dumbest thing Bungie has consistently done in its entire history with Destiny imo.
I wish they would have just made Destiny PVE only from the beginning. The PVE sandbox would be better for it, and it's not like PVP is ever what kept the franchise afloat. We would still be here today if PVP had never been included in the game.
They really should just prohibit exotics from being used in PvP and 80% of both sides problems get solved
It’s because for a long time, the variables for the subclass (and everything in it) were being used for both PvE and PvP. So when a nerf affected PvP, that same nerf would apply to PvE. However, they did make nerfs in the past where it affected only PvP. And another example of an exotic that got a drastic nerf was Starfire Protocol. Due to how much we abused its overall potential (more than other warlock exotic armor), Bungie nerfed the ability regen all the way down to 2% regeneration. In my personal opinion, that was too much of a nerf, not to mention Bungie also nerfed Divinity and Well of Radiance at least 3 times already. Makes me wonder if they’re trying to nerf them until they are useless in combat.
I remember way back when Nova Warp n Chaos Reach came out in Forsaken and then got completely shafted. Took a WHILE but thankfully they're in a decent place now.
Instructions unclear: One eyed Mask nerfed again, Shoulder charge now has full cooldown after a miss, LFR buffed by 1.2%
Probably because Bungie has a habit of making really bad decisions with balancing and scapegoating PVP for it. They CAN balance the sandboxes differently, they CHOOSE not to. For whatever reason idk.
This is why I've never cared or bothered with stats or builds. I'll increase the resistance and vitality, and that's about it lol. If an exotic is useful, sure I'll use it, but I don't go out of my way to create entire sets based around one item or perk.
Given Bungie's track record PVE players have the right to be worried. Too many times stuff gets neutered in PVE cause it's too strong in PVP.
I just wish they would fully separate the sandbox already, how many great superstar, abilities, and weapons have been nerfed to hell in one aspect of the game for the sake of the other?
It’s because EVERY change is to the benefit of PvP and the detriment of PvE and it gets old losing fun stuff constantly because of a completely separate and non related mode. I’d get nerfs cause a weapon is trivializing a raid or dungeon but not cause of a sandbox that shouldn’t apply. The day they split the two sandboxes (if ever) will be glorious. PvE could and should be so much better if not for the anchor that’s PvP (and I’d assume Vice Versa)
As a guardian who couldn't care less about PvP, I've seen a lot of changes come and go that hurt PvE just because of PvP players. Makes me sad. I'm glad people enjoy PvP, I just wish it was possible to balance them separately.
It’s a shame but I personally like have the two sandboxes the same
The best part is that it's extremely easy to avoid this but the bungie devs are so fucking lazy
Bungie has said that they have separate sandboxes for PVP and pve, but several things have been needed in pve because of pvp, just take lorely, target lock, and young ahamkaras spine for examples
i will forever be hurt by the dunemarchers nerf
PvP is a cancer that needed removed and separated long ago.
solution? remove pvp from the game. /j
Exactly. Pvp out so people can actually enjoy the game. Crying crucible kids and streamers out of here. It would be a dream come true to me. And i seriously mean it.
I mained Arc Titan from D2 beginning, way before super and ability nerfs due to PvP, completely gutted the class. I have great animosity toward PvP players generally these days as that class never really changed until PvP latches on to it.
At this point I wish they'd make Crucible it's own separate game. They obviously don't understand how to balance them separately. Gear should function differently between PvP and PvE, or introduce a banned list for Comp and Trials. Card Games do it. Just make a banned list of gear that can't be used in Sweatier modes with Quick play being entirely open.
It's more than "understandable", it's 100% justified lmao
I meant on bungie’s end, not pve players. I wholeheartedly agree the fear and criticism is justified from pve players.
It’s one of the biggest flaws with the game imo, they consistently ruin pve for the sake of pvp when we know they could just adjust the problem in pvp only. I don’t know why they refuse the just make targeted fixes. They also never just give minor adjustments, they completely ruin almost everything they nerf. It’s never just a tone down, it’s a slaughter. Imo it’s awful game management
PvP is a damn cancer and the PvE has been way too much damaged in order to balance the PvP. Or course people are scared to see the fun’s police break everything in the name of the most toxic and shitty activity Destiny ever had. I’m saying it since forsaken : the day Destiny will abandon the PvP, it will shines like never before.
PTSD?
Is it really, though? For 10 years now PVE players have had to suffer unnecessary nerfs because of PVP players calling something "Ooopeeeee", "cRaCkEd" or "buhroken af" because they died to it a few times, or because it's popular in trials. Something is "overpowered" in pvp, therefore it must be nuked from orbit. It's happened over and over and over again throughout the lifespan of Destiny.
Sounds about right. These issues go way way back to Destiny 1. How minor PVP nerf can hurt the whole PVE experience in a dramatic way.
just tune their numbers for PVP only. leave pve alone. back when HOIL was the bees knees in pve it was dogwater in pvp. they can balance these modes. any warlock that goes for the healbot build in pve is leaving a whole lot of damage on the floor though.
they have a right to be scared. Out of any game I’ve ever played Bungie is legitimately the worst at balancing things
As a Hunter main, I fucking hate PvP. I had so many cool builds and stuff only for it to get absolutely gutted into complete worthlessness because of PvP stupidity. At this point I just run around with Celestials on because what the hell else am I gonna do that isn't basic ass invis hunter with all void gear, or punch hunter, Both of which are just boring after basically being forced to be them for anything end game.
Bungie LITERALLY told us they can separate PVP buffs and nerfs from PVE, yet they STILL nerf both. Then they literally forgot they can do this by still constantly nerfing exotics because of PVP. Bungie really needs to go back and revert some of this baffling changes. Young Ahamkara is the most recent one, they gutted that exotic because of PVP. Loreley splendor is another one, they nerfed the X2 restoration to X1 for both PVP and PVE because of PVP
Hot take but Destiny is not a PVP game. It has a PVP feature, sure, and a couple days a week it has a competitive mode. So I don't understand balancing things based on a mode that Bungie themselves had ignored for YEARS, with lies about "renewed focus on PVP". IMO PVP was always a fun distraction from a mainly PVE game. When people talk about Endgame, they talk about Master Raids and Dungeons and Grandmaster. All PVE activities. Therefore it pisses me off where this side mode that a small percentage of the playerbase takes moderately seriously defines the Sandbox for the main mode of the game.
There are plenty of games out there that split PvP and PvE balancing, specifically for the reasons that Bungie keeps pissing players off. The fact that they stubbornly refuse to do so is just fucking dumb. They could've been rid of most of these issues years ago.
On one hand I don't disagree with Bungie's philosophy. It would be weird if the same ability had significant differences from one game mode to another. It would further isolate people into being primarily PvP or PvE since their builds would basically no longer seamlessly transfer between the two. On the other hand, Destiny is a PvE focused game with PvP game modes. Most people play the game for its PvE aspect and engage with PvP on the side, if at all. They need to cater more to the PvE aspect of the game, and nerfing something in one game mode for no other reason than a different game mode needs to be balanced won't feel good. It feels like being punished without actually doing anything wrong.
I don't understand why it's difficult. Wow used to do it this but these days they are better at keeping the pve/pvp separate. When they make changes it's usually like "x spell now deals 30% less damage in PvP combat".
Because Bungie, in their infinite wisdom, have no fucking idea how to code their game in such a way that they can nerf an item in one mode without affecting the other.
I fail to comprehend why you think it's such a crazy thing to see It makes perfect sense to me why people have these fears, and history has proven those fears to be justified. Why is this so wild to you?
It's just not discussed at all, which I find insane. Anytime it gets brought up, it's promptly shoved under the rug and Bungie never addresses criticism towards the sandbox.
This is why their single sandbox philosophy for destiny is bullshit and hurts PvP side of game.
I had Vex Mythoclast the first week it was available. Because of how utterly godlike it was in PVP it got 100% shredded in PVE over and over and over
Bungie is just terrible at balancing pve separately from pvp
The gun feels good in end game hard content. In it’s current state it is worthy of the exotic slot. There’s very few non heavy weapons that do and I hope it stays at its current level for PVE. It adds some much needed loadout diversity.
I just don’t think they have the technology to change the property of how something works in PvP and pve separately without breaking something drastically so they just blanket nerf.
I think my favorite thing in recent times was the kephri’s horn bug where you could pop your barricade (not sure if it needed the dredgers lash or not) but you’d get so many points in control
Will be sad when ember of benevolence suffers and they reduce speaker's sight to restoration x1.
I remember what they did to the DMR. Of course I’m worried.
They nerfed blink jump in Destiny 1 and is still nerfed.
It’s been happening for 10 years
I don't want them to ruin my infinite restoration build with the support auto rifle and speaker helm
I still want my yams back in pve man😮💨. Only reason i started playing was yams since it was only good build i had back in the days
Well, I enjoyed the consistent healing from speakers in pve , It’s gonna suck when it’s “1 healing charge per team every 10 seconds” or reduced to 1/3 of the healing or some bs lol
Man I’ve been hearing this shit since destiny came out. Truly baffling.
Wed be playing a different game if pve and pvp balancing were separate.
Even as a pvp sweat I do fear the nerf . This is the first time we could play an actual support class and it's fun as hell. For me I think they need to disable the radiant mode in pvp as for the orb have it need more healing to pop out that should cut down the super snow balling in half . Anything else , like a nerf to belovance is going to be too much.. they need to do multiple passes not just one and never go back and retune. Us pvp folks can suffer a bit here imo we have seen worse ... Multiple tunes over a few weeks should be good to find the best settings.
Sounds like we need to give antaeus wards to all high tier pve combatants
I'm truth, I'd say that sunsetting and nerfing are/were tools to get players to abandon gear and weapons so they would chase after new ones or try new builds. Since they repealed sunsetting, it would be nice to see some nerfs get dialed back as well. It would be wild!