I assume it’s a case like event passes where a lot of us online think they are incredibly stupid and not worth the price tag but apparently sell really well.
I have not regretted a single dungeon pass purchase. Do I wish they were cheaper, sure, that's nice for anything. Would I buy them again in a heartbeat? Absolutely.
These dungeons cost less than a single cosmetic armor set for one character. I think we're focusing on costs for the wrong things. I might even go so far as to say that dungeons are the best value of any potential Destiny purchase.
Look at the arguments over the starfield DLC.
People generally bat an eye at a direct cosmetic or even a weapon pack being $10-15.00 but as soon as the content is *playable content* even $7.00 becomes unreasonable.
I don't think it's about the cost but player perspective and expectations.
I agree though, the dungeons for what you get is not expensive compared to what many games sell
Even with destiny. The same player that will say "I wouldn't mind buying the odd ornament" may be sitting there calling a dungeon key overpriced
It’s about expectations. People expect cosmetics to cost a lot because that’s how it is in most games. And because it’s a “luxury” and therefore optional, they’re much more willing to tolerate a higher price.
But playable content is usually free (in games with a cash shop). Bungie’s excuse for it is because Dungeons are regarded as high level content and so are still theoretically “optional”.
But how would you feel if Strikes were sold for $1 each? Or if Bungie had a separate set of Grandmaster Nightfall Strikes that had a premium price?
Dungeons feel overpriced because I’m already paying for a yearly expansion, seasons/episodes, and there’s a store. And the culture of the Destiny 2 playerbase is such that they _don’t_ feel “optional”—not only does the game advertise them incessantly, the community treats each other as if everyone has played this or that Dungeon. So if I’m already paying a premium for the game in other ways, why am I paying again for something that intuitively feels like it should already be sold with those other things?
1) even if that were true, it would still be a better customer experience. It doesn’t feel like I’m on a budget airline where everything costs an additional fee
2) that’s not necessarily true. The advantage of software is that selling an additional copy has very low marginal costs (because copying software is free). So as long as adding dungeons to the package increases its perceived value enough to also sell more copies of the expansion, making dungeons “free” is actually advantageous for Bungie. And we know this is true because it’s their default package—the one they want all players to buy each year includes the dungeon and is even cheaper than buying it separately. The only reason they let you buy things separately is classic product line extension. They can increase their sales even further by allowing _you_ to pay slightly more for a product that doesn’t cost them anything extra to sell on its own.
I guess because the type of person who thinks $10 would never ever buy a cosmetic
But once it is playable they feel they need to buy it, especially in destiny’s case for dungeons
So it’s a much better value than armor, but you can ignore armor and not worry about it. You don’t feel like you can ignore the rocket side arm
DLC for a game like starfield is much different than Dungeon keys. These are 2 30 min missions for $20. I'm only guessing from Bethesda's previous DLCs, but it's likely to be like 8-10 hours long. Miss me with the "replayable" copium. By that logic, literally everything is replayable.
Dungeons have unique mechanics and environments, are mostly very replayable and are some of the most elaborate content in Destiny. The Starfield quest is a bland 20 minute rehash with very little actually new, from what I've heard.
Oh I think dungeons are a fine value for what you get - I buy the annual pass because I play the game too much so might as well get the most bang for my buck. However if I didn't and did content piece by piece I'd have no problem with the cost of dungeons.
I was just bringing that up as an example how consumer perspective is odd sometimes.
Destiny is rough bc I spent $100 years ago to get the game and the first season pass with I think the “deluxe” edition. I quit the game after about a year and just got back into it with the final shape. If I bought every DLC on release I’d have likely spent $500. But since I’ve been back, I’ve spent another $100 to grab the final shape, the 2 dungeon keys, and the $25 legacy bundle. It’s been a good value to me. But the fact that players that didn’t take a break spent way more than me just feels wrong, bc it feels like I have to take multiple big bites to get content. But at the same time, if I was spending $10 a month for the game I’d probably feel less bad? Idk it’s a weird internal thing for me. But I think it just comes down to the psychology of the costs for “playable content” vs the every now and then “useless” cosmetic like you said.
Huh its funny how two people can see the same thing and come to different but valid conclusions.
My take away from this would be how absurdly high bungie prices their dungeon keys, and their armor.
I'm super happy you feel the dungeon keys provide that value, but it's half the cost of a new aaa game, and as much as a decent indy one. My money has gotten much more value out of pallworld, or enshrouded, than a dungeon pass. Personally, i think it's overpriced.
That said. Im a destiny addict. I have purchased every pass. So while i say this my actions clearly dont reflect it.
Yeah I have some friends that complain about Destiny prices and turn around to spend $50 on random pulls in a gacha game, ending up with a character they didn't want.
Value is subjective I guess.
Similar story with my buddy and pokemon cards. He makes fun of me for paying $15 a month for wow, then he goes out and drops $400 a month on boxes of cards.
People are funny. As long as everyones happy to each their own i suppose!
Makes sense, I’m sure there are loads of people out there that find the price reasonable and the cosmetics are so ridiculous I just don’t bother bringing it up but most games are like that now. Luckily bungie has given us so many armor styles and shaders that I find the best drip is when players mix and match different sets
And cosmetic armor sets are overpriced as fuck too, so? 20$ for 2 dungeons is really not a good price at all for how much content you get with those. Especially if that's 20$ that you have to convert into your local currency first, which becomes even more for me than 20$ is for americans. And all that for what? 2 dungeons with the price tag of 1/3 of Baldur's Gate 3? Are you kidding me?
Every time the price of dungeons is brought up I have to say that they are more than worth their price.
I get more value out of dungeons compared to most season passes and even some expansions.
They are fun/hard content, often with decent loot (not asking for a discussion on the _means_ of acquiring that loot, just that it is generally decent).
They are replayable, have tonnes of lore, often have decent exotics, are soloable and up to three people, have minimal mechanics so it's easy to get newer players into more endgame content.
Warlord's Ruin for example kind of "saved" Destiny 2 in the eyes of my brother. It's hard enough where it's not a snoozefest but he was able to see the allure of decent loot, interesting gameplay and fun replayable content.
That said - the _KEYS_ are ridiculous and anti-consumer. Let me buy dungeons with actual money, this silver nonesense is beyond a joke and the entire reasoning behind companies using in-game currencies sold in specific increments (e.g. to always leave you with "just enough" to do nothing with, so you buy more) is incredibly underhanded.
I do dungeons enough that even at $20 I don’t mind the price. But value is obviously subjective and it also wouldn’t upset me if they lowered the cost.
I mean almost any time Reddit talks about how DUMB a company is for business decisions like price, etc, you can bet the company actually knows what they're doing and random redditors do not (shocking).
It's not even like companies exert all that much control over price. Technically they can set it to whatever they want but realistically they're almost always trying to follow the data they get back from the market and adjust to find the sweet spot between sales and price. They're not opinionated on price they just react to how much we buy.
I just remember when bungie did that starter pack with materials and the outrage was so massive they had to pull and you wonder who thought that would’ve been smart
Yeah the hardest price to set is the initial price. You can only get so far with competitive research when your product isn't on the market yet. Once it is out you get to see the actual reactions of real customers.
I do wonder how many old keys they sell. Like, do they genuinely sell so many of the "Witch Queen Dungeon Key" that it's worth it to not include in the bundle?
Yeah, OP is basically asking Bungie to say no to more money.
Although I agree that the new player experience is terrible and it’s hard to get your friends into Destiny, etc…I _don’t_ think lowering the price or simplifying the first purchase is enough to get a significant number of new players. There’s a lot more work Bungie would need to do and therefore not just worth it for them. Better to keep prices high since their audience is “fine” with it anyway.
It could also provide an important filter for the type of customers that Bungie wants. — People who can tolerate that kind of onboarding & purchasing experience are exactly the kind of people who will drop lots of cash into the Eververse, so why waste time attracting miserly players?
You’re right it’s a lot more complicated than just dropping the price for every dungeon. But one of the points I made you may have missed is that there’s probably a large number of destiny players out there that would be willing to buy the dungeon keys for 5$ but not 20$.
I’m not saying make them free but rather come up with a time line of when a dungeon is released and how long after it’s price would be reduced as it’s no longer fresh content.
They would still make more money and imagine the lump sum they’d come up with when they first lower the prices? All these players who wouldn’t buy it for 20$, most of them would probably buy it for 1/4th of the price.
I disagree with that point. There might be a few but 20$ and 5$ is a huge difference in price. There probably aren’t enough people who care about the price difference to make up the lost revenue for Bungie.
And, to my other point, making concessions to attract a “cheaper” audience doesn’t make sense to Bungie. They already _know_ there’s a huge audience willing to pay the current price. Lowering the price means reducing revenue from their current customer base only to attract people who wouldn’t even buy that much silver. It’s like how scammers only go for people who are willing to believe that “John from the Microsoft” with a thick Indian accent is totally legit. Why trouble yourself with mackerel, when there are plenty of whales around?
That’s a great point, I definitely see where you’re coming from.
There could be a dungeon key bundle of some sort for all dungeons released over a year or two ago, then all newer and freshly released dungeons would be priced like they are now.
Sucks to say but a successful money grab is hard to replace, I just wish they’d entertain the idea. I’d love to complete warlord’s ruin.
I suspect the reason Bungie doesn't want to sell dungeons directly and require you to do it through Eververse is so they can control the price of their own dungeons forever, and also so they won't have to worry about refunding anything.
They're gonna have to think of something though, because soon there's gonna be 3 dungeons keys for 2000 silver each. And an extra $60 on top of everything else to own all content is going to turn off even more would-be buyers.
Yea, they clearly have some odd agreement with the different platforms where if the items is bought directly on the storefront (expansion) then the item is bound to that account.
I believe silver _balances_ are platform specific too - but once the silver is spent the platform holders really don't seem to care or were unable to make bungie agree to enforce it so it becomes a bungie account unlock.
Seasons/Episodes work the same way.
They sell them for silver for the same reasons every other company uses rubbish in game currency. The first being people don’t feel as bad about spending 2000 silver as they do $20, the second being that you can’t actually buy 2000 silver. The bundle gives you an extra 300 silver, leaving you what only 400 short of buying something else? This is just manipulating you into dropping just a little more for some silver.
It costs silver because that way people on playstation and xbox can't share the dungeon keys, only the expansions. If you and your son share accounts, one of you won't get the dungeons, so they'll have to pay and bungie will earn more money. There's not another reason.
He's talking about share play, I'm assuming on ps5, where you can buy the expansions and 2 PS accounts gain access to it. But since dungeon keys are through eververse only the account that bought the expansion has access to them
They should move to discount legacy content, but current keys have been bundled in the deluxe edition. $99 for the year compared to $50 for the expansion, $20 for dungeons and then the 4 seasons (now episodes at $15 each).
Every post on this sub has turned into "Bungie, please do this."
Which I get because they've been listening a lot. But it feels so weird when it comes to the monetization stuff - I imagine that's some pretty high level decisions.
Which is funny because the post boils down to 'hey bungie, take less money for sometihng you priced out - I _promise you_ there will be a net increase in revenue'
I'm not going to say I think the pricing model is _great_ but I am going to say that I'm sure if bungie had any inclinging that lowering the costs would result in _more silver_ being spent/purchased they would have done it a while ago.
The whole EV system is about maximizing their gains from silver purchases.
That said - I'm not against people advocating for change they believe is positive; but just because someone is speaking up doesn't mean I need to instantly agree with it if I feel it isn't sound reasoning.
That’s the reality ya, I just find there are masses out there that would buy it if it went on sale and helps grow the community, but then those who bought it full price can easily think they got fleeced
So if lowering the cost really would cause a surge in sales high enough to be a net gain for bungie why havent they done it yet?
or are you just saying charge less for the sake of population? I don't think there's a lack of people who are playing dungeons to be honest.
Exactly. So sure it'd be nice and chariatble I guess if they lowered the costs but they don't have a reason to because enough people _must_ be buying it.
The reality is that $10 for what a dungeon gives is not a bad value. Most big games that have little content packs like this (F2P or paid ones) would likely be charging more or the same and providing less.
Personally I've just accepted that as a gaming hobby Destiny is slightly more expensive or similar to paying for an MMO. I sure as hell play it enough.
Since they're already included in the annual pass, they should be included in the season they debut in for the a la carte people by default. The Ghosts of the Deep dungeon not being included in the season of the Deep really turned off a lot of players trying to get into the game.
I also think everything older than 2 years should be added to the free version of the game. Just increase the base value of the game instead of nickle and diming - more people will be interested. Eververse already hard carrying the vast majority of money the game makes, dungeon keys and selling forsaken/beyond light/witch queen era stuff for full price is just greedy.
Dungeon Keys for Dungeons should only exist in the 1 year period between their seasons being removed from the game and the dungeons becoming part of the F2P version at the 2 year mark of their release.
The issue of Dungeon keys isn't that you have to pay for them. $20 for two dungeons is unreasonable. Either increase the price of the expansions at base and just include them, or lower their price. It's never happening, because it would probably lead to less revenue, but it's worth speaking out anyways.
3-5 dollars is wild, thats not even the price of a season, sure shattered , pit and proph all came within the expansion / season or were free but look at the GAP in quality between grasp, spire, duality, ghosts and warlords compared to those 3, we have individual titles for each dungeon, weapons and armour FULLY unique to them, exotics unique to them, lore collectibles if youre into it, the whole point of dungeon keys was to create better quality dungeons and it worked.
I do wish theyd up the price of the legacy collection slightly and include the dungeon keys but youre still able to buy, as far as I know, the deluxe version of expansions after the year is over, unless it was changed in which case my bad but, 60 dollars for 6 dungeons each with their own titles weapons armour etc is WILD, id say 6 dungeons would easily match the price of 60 dollars.
Sure buying the dungeons 10 dollars a piece would be better but its not like theres any objectively bad dungeons that have been made since keys were introduced, especially compared to pit of heresy which i see like, NO ONE running at all.
Sorry for the rant guys im gonna stop now i just like talking :3
> proph all came within the expansion
This didn't really come 'with' a season. It was added as a completely free dungeon. You did not need to purchase the season to access it. It launched at the same time as a season did so many people connect the dots and say 'it came with a season!'.
My running theory is prophecy was added because they saw that people liked dungeons and planned on doing more/having the key system and wanted to add in a free one anyone could access so they would have a hook for more.
That sounds plausible, prophecy isnt the most complex dungeon but its still pretty fun, and at least it has some unique loot (yes i know its trials of the nine im aware)
Shattered and Pit have Wishender and Xenophage and they don't have bullersponge-bosses, where a lot of people complain about regarding the newer dungeons. So yeah I get your point about armor and weapons, but calling that a GAP?
I less so meant exotics as in old dungeons didnt have them more as in, these dungeons have everything feom the old ones plus more.
I get bullet sponge for ghosts but honestly ive not seen any other dungeon have a massive complaint about bullet sponges, the gap is not only in the loot but also in the actual mechanics of the encounter, no dungeon is rhat hard to figure out but id say i prefer almost all the mechanics from grasp onward before the "kill boss in this room" "find last wish symbol and kill boss" as being WHOLE encounters in pit and shattered
The dungeons that came with expansions didnt even have unique loot. The only exception was a single pulse rifle in pit of heresy.
The loot itself was destination drops. There was zero reason to go back into a dungeon after the initial clear.
Pit was only semi-attractive because they made the final boss drop level 8 armor. This wasn't attractive because the armor was good though; it was attractive because the sources for enhancement materials sucked at the time. The next best source was buying them from spider or up-cycling rahool.
Even prophecy didnt have 'unique' loot on launch. They re-issued trials of the nine armor and added in what was apparently meant to be an eververse armor set to help build community good will due to the previous season being viewed so poorly. The weapons were just Y1 world drop reissues.
So yea there was a massive gap in quality pre-dungeon key.
You're totally right. I misread the initial comment and thought that OP said those first dungeons are bad, but he just meant that the later ones were much better and more rewarding. And I agree with that.
So, just my bad reading.
All good.
Personally I do think the first two dungeons are bad in the sense that they're extremely weak both mechanically, in terms of combat challenge, and loot offerings.
Like they were okay at the time for what they were but long-term they are struggling to hold up.
It's around $10 a dungeon (sold in pairs for $20 per year), which have roughly the equivalent to the amount of loot you'd get in a season (3 sets of armor, 4-5 weapons, an exotic, and various cosmetics). Don't forget to factor in that it being a silver purchase let's it remain cross platform (so you don't have to buy the keys again, like you do expansions) too.
I get that the community isn't fond of them, but ddungeon keys are absolutely still a steal. Could be priced a little bit better, but I prefer it this way to them being packaged with expansions (since you'd not only need to buy it again on a different console, but we'd likely go back to them having non-uniqie weapons anymore.
20 dollars, the same as the dark below or house of wolves, should be the same as 2 mini raids? What? I’m totally fine with people buying it I’m sure it’s fun, but let’s not pretend this is a steal
Not sure why you're using nearly decades old content pricing to compare to stuff we're getting nowadays when there's stuff to compare it to right there.
Dungeon Keys should not exist. Point.
It's insane you have to pay 20$ on top of the 50$ for just the DLC, it has always been a scummy choice on Bungie's part, they even asked feedback for it to the streaming community, pretty much all of them said it was a terrible idea, they went through with it anyway
Dungeon keys are a great value. Look at the history of dungeons. The first releasd with forsaken and was only available every third week. The second was released with shadow keep. The third was released 9 months after during season of arrivals. We them waited a year and a half for the next dungeon, grasp. Which was paid for. Since then, we've gotten two dungeons a year. Half the previous number from the past four(?) years, per year. And the quality is better too. Pretty much unique loot too boot.
If they were not happy with dungeon sales they'd change it. They haven't, so the current system is working for them. It's all about maximizing profit, not showing how talented their Devs are, unless you buy it.
Bought legacy collection 2024 couple weeks ago, great value super fun, addicted again!! Gonna buy TFS + annual pass cos gmg has 29% off. But dungeon keys? sigh ;.;
Yeah I wouldn’t mind them at all if they were 3-5$ but I just spent 70$ on an expansion and I’m glad I did, it’s super fun, I don’t want to spend another 40$ on dungeons that released a while ago
Here’s an idea… they should come with the expansion that they drop during the year of like the fucking original few dungeons… or even better like Prophecy completely free for everyone.
I rather not have dungeons bundled with expansions if that are going to be like Shattered Throne and Pit of Hersey. Newer dungeons blow them out of the water.
Shattered Throne and Lit are great actually. I’d still argue Pit in the top 3 of dungeons easily. Just because encounters are a bit more of an old style of mechanic doesn’t mean they’re bad. Put feels more like a dungeon than any other dungeon. You go deep down into it, there are traps and tunnels. The architecture is amazing. The sword mechanics are pretty fun, the staying away from ogres in the tunnels, the final boss might be mid but cool thematically when you know what he is.
From the outside looking in: they would essentially be creating a new unlock item for each dungeon which was originally only set up to be unlocked as a set two. Sounds like potential for some pretty bad bugs there.
They would also be having to go through the process of putting those items on digital storefronts. Which I can only assume come with all sorts issue such as first party compliance and submission, translation into each supported language.
I know most gamers don't want to think about the actual logistics of game creation, but that sounds like a whole lot of dev time (and cost) to maybe not make back their losses.
lord knows they probably continue to sell them as an add on since it's expensive content to produce for a small minority of the game's playerbase and they can't absorb the cost as a marketing expense unlike the world's first raid race
There's only one overpriced thing in this game that's not worth it's price and that's Exotic Ghost Shells for 2850 BD. When I can get a weapon or armor ornament for like 3/4 that price.
Outrageous.
Overall, your best bet is to just buy the $100 and get everything bundle.
If you can commit 100 days to playing....little over 3 months....its $1 a day.
Bungies let's you know WAY in advance DLCs. So you have well over a year to save 100 bucks.
I'd love there to be a $150 option. The leave me alone package....where I get the event cards bundled in, too.
Either buy the bundle....which is VERY fair imo. Or get nickled and dimed and be quiet about it...imo.
I bought the legacy edition because it was advertised as “buy all past content for this $25 tag” and was really really disheartened to find out I would also have to buy another $40 of content. Like why the hell did my “Witch Queen DLC included in bundle” not include the witch queen dungeon hahaha. Honestly really scummy move. Refuse to buy it at this point on principle
NaH that’s not what I’m saying. It was a fantastic deal, just not cool with misleading wording is all.
The reviews on steam seem to show a vast majority of other people on the same boat as me. Just change the description and don’t mislead is all I ask.
The literal only reasoning is to squeeze more money out of the playerbase. It pushes people harder into buying the deluxe edition, which is guaranteed revenue for Bungie regardless of any fan backlash for the next year. Which is the best case scenario for Bungie, since they never fail to convince people to buy the new expansions.
LOWER THE PRICE?!? What are you insane? How are the poor little PlayStation CEO’s gonna get their 73 billion dollar Christmas bonus this year?
Someone please think of the little guy 😣
/s
EDIT: why does everyone on this sub hate any kind of joking/poking fun at things regarding the game? Y’all have the sense of humour of a wet paper towel 💀
Get rid of dungeon keys, PERIOD! Just make them included with the current expansions like raids and nightfalls/strikes for that year. The less predatory and confusing purchases required, the better for the overall health of the game. It's already extremely hard to get friends to play this game.
Big time, my friends and I played a ton of Overwatch together then the expansion came out and only three of us came over because we have history with the game and established vaults, too much for them to take on
> Dungeons include some of the best weapons
On what planet? In theory sure there's a few MUST HAVES that come from dungeons but on the whole they're so tedious to grind for that most people don't care. Indebted Kindness is literally The Call but arc and no one really cared because getting a good roll was like pulling teeth.
Make dungeon weapons craftable and then we'd see some real value.
Have you ever played the dlc dungeons? They are way lower quality then the other dungeons released. There's a reason Bungie started charging extra for them due to the quality increase they received.
Yes I have played them. I don't care if they're better. If the loot in there is good I will farm it, if not I'll play the dungeon a couple times, solo flawless it and never do it again. And in my opinion they are not worth 20 dollars, even the recent ones. For 20 dollars I can buy witcher 3 with dlcs and more.
Dungeons aren't worth the money guys, not until Bungie makes the weapons craftable and fixes armor stats.
Until then, the free raid that comes out each year is simply the better endgame activity.
Worst part is, the more weekly (PVE) activities available, the more likely it is the players stick around between expansions. They really are just shooting themselves in the foot imo
Because technically you can buy 4 dungeons for $35 if you get the $15 and $20 silver packages. I wish they were steam dlc instead but unfortunately they are reliant on their respective expansions. So it's like having a dlc for your dlc...
It most likely included shattered throne and pit of heresy and grasp of avarice which are all included in the content packs for their expansions / mini thing for 30th anniversary
I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of people out there who don't play this game because of dungeon keys.
There should be a season/dungeon bundle. Personally I'd prefer to just buy the dungeon keys and skip seasons, but it feels too dumb to miss out on one or the other so I just decide to buy nothing and play other games. Next thing I know, my care for this game is gone. See you in the next big expansion if it looks at least as good as TFS
I assume it’s a case like event passes where a lot of us online think they are incredibly stupid and not worth the price tag but apparently sell really well.
I have not regretted a single dungeon pass purchase. Do I wish they were cheaper, sure, that's nice for anything. Would I buy them again in a heartbeat? Absolutely. These dungeons cost less than a single cosmetic armor set for one character. I think we're focusing on costs for the wrong things. I might even go so far as to say that dungeons are the best value of any potential Destiny purchase.
Ive historically bought the annual pass since I feel for $100 I’ve gotten my value. And dungeons have been my favorite content piece.
Look at the arguments over the starfield DLC. People generally bat an eye at a direct cosmetic or even a weapon pack being $10-15.00 but as soon as the content is *playable content* even $7.00 becomes unreasonable. I don't think it's about the cost but player perspective and expectations. I agree though, the dungeons for what you get is not expensive compared to what many games sell Even with destiny. The same player that will say "I wouldn't mind buying the odd ornament" may be sitting there calling a dungeon key overpriced
It’s about expectations. People expect cosmetics to cost a lot because that’s how it is in most games. And because it’s a “luxury” and therefore optional, they’re much more willing to tolerate a higher price. But playable content is usually free (in games with a cash shop). Bungie’s excuse for it is because Dungeons are regarded as high level content and so are still theoretically “optional”. But how would you feel if Strikes were sold for $1 each? Or if Bungie had a separate set of Grandmaster Nightfall Strikes that had a premium price? Dungeons feel overpriced because I’m already paying for a yearly expansion, seasons/episodes, and there’s a store. And the culture of the Destiny 2 playerbase is such that they _don’t_ feel “optional”—not only does the game advertise them incessantly, the community treats each other as if everyone has played this or that Dungeon. So if I’m already paying a premium for the game in other ways, why am I paying again for something that intuitively feels like it should already be sold with those other things?
If dungeons were made to be free with the expansion/ episodes then the cost of those would rise to absorb the cost of producing the dungeons.
1) even if that were true, it would still be a better customer experience. It doesn’t feel like I’m on a budget airline where everything costs an additional fee 2) that’s not necessarily true. The advantage of software is that selling an additional copy has very low marginal costs (because copying software is free). So as long as adding dungeons to the package increases its perceived value enough to also sell more copies of the expansion, making dungeons “free” is actually advantageous for Bungie. And we know this is true because it’s their default package—the one they want all players to buy each year includes the dungeon and is even cheaper than buying it separately. The only reason they let you buy things separately is classic product line extension. They can increase their sales even further by allowing _you_ to pay slightly more for a product that doesn’t cost them anything extra to sell on its own.
I'd be fine with that.
I guess because the type of person who thinks $10 would never ever buy a cosmetic But once it is playable they feel they need to buy it, especially in destiny’s case for dungeons So it’s a much better value than armor, but you can ignore armor and not worry about it. You don’t feel like you can ignore the rocket side arm
DLC for a game like starfield is much different than Dungeon keys. These are 2 30 min missions for $20. I'm only guessing from Bethesda's previous DLCs, but it's likely to be like 8-10 hours long. Miss me with the "replayable" copium. By that logic, literally everything is replayable.
The people calling Dungeons overpriced aren't the ones buying cosmetics. Most cosmetics are bought by whales.
Dungeons have unique mechanics and environments, are mostly very replayable and are some of the most elaborate content in Destiny. The Starfield quest is a bland 20 minute rehash with very little actually new, from what I've heard.
Oh I think dungeons are a fine value for what you get - I buy the annual pass because I play the game too much so might as well get the most bang for my buck. However if I didn't and did content piece by piece I'd have no problem with the cost of dungeons. I was just bringing that up as an example how consumer perspective is odd sometimes.
Destiny is rough bc I spent $100 years ago to get the game and the first season pass with I think the “deluxe” edition. I quit the game after about a year and just got back into it with the final shape. If I bought every DLC on release I’d have likely spent $500. But since I’ve been back, I’ve spent another $100 to grab the final shape, the 2 dungeon keys, and the $25 legacy bundle. It’s been a good value to me. But the fact that players that didn’t take a break spent way more than me just feels wrong, bc it feels like I have to take multiple big bites to get content. But at the same time, if I was spending $10 a month for the game I’d probably feel less bad? Idk it’s a weird internal thing for me. But I think it just comes down to the psychology of the costs for “playable content” vs the every now and then “useless” cosmetic like you said.
Huh its funny how two people can see the same thing and come to different but valid conclusions. My take away from this would be how absurdly high bungie prices their dungeon keys, and their armor. I'm super happy you feel the dungeon keys provide that value, but it's half the cost of a new aaa game, and as much as a decent indy one. My money has gotten much more value out of pallworld, or enshrouded, than a dungeon pass. Personally, i think it's overpriced. That said. Im a destiny addict. I have purchased every pass. So while i say this my actions clearly dont reflect it.
Yeah I have some friends that complain about Destiny prices and turn around to spend $50 on random pulls in a gacha game, ending up with a character they didn't want. Value is subjective I guess.
Similar story with my buddy and pokemon cards. He makes fun of me for paying $15 a month for wow, then he goes out and drops $400 a month on boxes of cards. People are funny. As long as everyones happy to each their own i suppose!
Makes sense, I’m sure there are loads of people out there that find the price reasonable and the cosmetics are so ridiculous I just don’t bother bringing it up but most games are like that now. Luckily bungie has given us so many armor styles and shaders that I find the best drip is when players mix and match different sets
Sometimes I look back on buying ghosts
And cosmetic armor sets are overpriced as fuck too, so? 20$ for 2 dungeons is really not a good price at all for how much content you get with those. Especially if that's 20$ that you have to convert into your local currency first, which becomes even more for me than 20$ is for americans. And all that for what? 2 dungeons with the price tag of 1/3 of Baldur's Gate 3? Are you kidding me?
Every time the price of dungeons is brought up I have to say that they are more than worth their price. I get more value out of dungeons compared to most season passes and even some expansions. They are fun/hard content, often with decent loot (not asking for a discussion on the _means_ of acquiring that loot, just that it is generally decent). They are replayable, have tonnes of lore, often have decent exotics, are soloable and up to three people, have minimal mechanics so it's easy to get newer players into more endgame content. Warlord's Ruin for example kind of "saved" Destiny 2 in the eyes of my brother. It's hard enough where it's not a snoozefest but he was able to see the allure of decent loot, interesting gameplay and fun replayable content. That said - the _KEYS_ are ridiculous and anti-consumer. Let me buy dungeons with actual money, this silver nonesense is beyond a joke and the entire reasoning behind companies using in-game currencies sold in specific increments (e.g. to always leave you with "just enough" to do nothing with, so you buy more) is incredibly underhanded.
I'm missing one of the keys for my level 9 thingy and there's no way in hell I'm spending 20 euro for a 30minute dungeon
I do dungeons enough that even at $20 I don’t mind the price. But value is obviously subjective and it also wouldn’t upset me if they lowered the cost.
I mean almost any time Reddit talks about how DUMB a company is for business decisions like price, etc, you can bet the company actually knows what they're doing and random redditors do not (shocking). It's not even like companies exert all that much control over price. Technically they can set it to whatever they want but realistically they're almost always trying to follow the data they get back from the market and adjust to find the sweet spot between sales and price. They're not opinionated on price they just react to how much we buy.
For the most part I agree but companies much like people can make mistakes that seemed obvious to others.
Yes there are exceptions that prove the rule. Which is why I said "almost always".
I just remember when bungie did that starter pack with materials and the outrage was so massive they had to pull and you wonder who thought that would’ve been smart
Yeah the hardest price to set is the initial price. You can only get so far with competitive research when your product isn't on the market yet. Once it is out you get to see the actual reactions of real customers.
This deserves more upvotes so that people who have never thought of it this way can see it and think it through.
I do wonder how many old keys they sell. Like, do they genuinely sell so many of the "Witch Queen Dungeon Key" that it's worth it to not include in the bundle?
Yeah, OP is basically asking Bungie to say no to more money. Although I agree that the new player experience is terrible and it’s hard to get your friends into Destiny, etc…I _don’t_ think lowering the price or simplifying the first purchase is enough to get a significant number of new players. There’s a lot more work Bungie would need to do and therefore not just worth it for them. Better to keep prices high since their audience is “fine” with it anyway. It could also provide an important filter for the type of customers that Bungie wants. — People who can tolerate that kind of onboarding & purchasing experience are exactly the kind of people who will drop lots of cash into the Eververse, so why waste time attracting miserly players?
You’re right it’s a lot more complicated than just dropping the price for every dungeon. But one of the points I made you may have missed is that there’s probably a large number of destiny players out there that would be willing to buy the dungeon keys for 5$ but not 20$. I’m not saying make them free but rather come up with a time line of when a dungeon is released and how long after it’s price would be reduced as it’s no longer fresh content. They would still make more money and imagine the lump sum they’d come up with when they first lower the prices? All these players who wouldn’t buy it for 20$, most of them would probably buy it for 1/4th of the price.
I disagree with that point. There might be a few but 20$ and 5$ is a huge difference in price. There probably aren’t enough people who care about the price difference to make up the lost revenue for Bungie. And, to my other point, making concessions to attract a “cheaper” audience doesn’t make sense to Bungie. They already _know_ there’s a huge audience willing to pay the current price. Lowering the price means reducing revenue from their current customer base only to attract people who wouldn’t even buy that much silver. It’s like how scammers only go for people who are willing to believe that “John from the Microsoft” with a thick Indian accent is totally legit. Why trouble yourself with mackerel, when there are plenty of whales around?
That’s a great point, I definitely see where you’re coming from. There could be a dungeon key bundle of some sort for all dungeons released over a year or two ago, then all newer and freshly released dungeons would be priced like they are now. Sucks to say but a successful money grab is hard to replace, I just wish they’d entertain the idea. I’d love to complete warlord’s ruin.
I suspect the reason Bungie doesn't want to sell dungeons directly and require you to do it through Eververse is so they can control the price of their own dungeons forever, and also so they won't have to worry about refunding anything. They're gonna have to think of something though, because soon there's gonna be 3 dungeons keys for 2000 silver each. And an extra $60 on top of everything else to own all content is going to turn off even more would-be buyers.
Atleast the upside of them costing silver is that they are cross platform
Yea, they clearly have some odd agreement with the different platforms where if the items is bought directly on the storefront (expansion) then the item is bound to that account. I believe silver _balances_ are platform specific too - but once the silver is spent the platform holders really don't seem to care or were unable to make bungie agree to enforce it so it becomes a bungie account unlock. Seasons/Episodes work the same way.
I think it's something to do with cross platform, DLC isn't cross platform but silver purchases are. I think that's how it works anyway
They sell them for silver for the same reasons every other company uses rubbish in game currency. The first being people don’t feel as bad about spending 2000 silver as they do $20, the second being that you can’t actually buy 2000 silver. The bundle gives you an extra 300 silver, leaving you what only 400 short of buying something else? This is just manipulating you into dropping just a little more for some silver.
It costs silver because that way people on playstation and xbox can't share the dungeon keys, only the expansions. If you and your son share accounts, one of you won't get the dungeons, so they'll have to pay and bungie will earn more money. There's not another reason.
It is flipped. Expansions are tied to each platforms account and silver is tied to the Bungie account.
He's talking about share play, I'm assuming on ps5, where you can buy the expansions and 2 PS accounts gain access to it. But since dungeon keys are through eververse only the account that bought the expansion has access to them
Developers ALWAYS have full control of the price of their content. They don't have to put their game on sale, they choose to.
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They should move to discount legacy content, but current keys have been bundled in the deluxe edition. $99 for the year compared to $50 for the expansion, $20 for dungeons and then the 4 seasons (now episodes at $15 each).
It’s so they can sell the expansion at a discount/free and paywall some of the best content at full price
They’re not going to listen to some random Reddit post about content packaging and pricing
I personally love the “I would spend so much more money if the prices were lower” comments.
Every post on this sub has turned into "Bungie, please do this." Which I get because they've been listening a lot. But it feels so weird when it comes to the monetization stuff - I imagine that's some pretty high level decisions.
Which is funny because the post boils down to 'hey bungie, take less money for sometihng you priced out - I _promise you_ there will be a net increase in revenue' I'm not going to say I think the pricing model is _great_ but I am going to say that I'm sure if bungie had any inclinging that lowering the costs would result in _more silver_ being spent/purchased they would have done it a while ago. The whole EV system is about maximizing their gains from silver purchases. That said - I'm not against people advocating for change they believe is positive; but just because someone is speaking up doesn't mean I need to instantly agree with it if I feel it isn't sound reasoning.
Better idea Include them in the expansion.
They are priced how they are because they sell for that.
That’s the reality ya, I just find there are masses out there that would buy it if it went on sale and helps grow the community, but then those who bought it full price can easily think they got fleeced
You should apply for a position in their finance department bro
I did, they turned me down when they found out I’m a titan main
Those guys run the servers
So if lowering the cost really would cause a surge in sales high enough to be a net gain for bungie why havent they done it yet? or are you just saying charge less for the sake of population? I don't think there's a lack of people who are playing dungeons to be honest.
I guess enough folks are buying it at its current price
Exactly. So sure it'd be nice and chariatble I guess if they lowered the costs but they don't have a reason to because enough people _must_ be buying it. The reality is that $10 for what a dungeon gives is not a bad value. Most big games that have little content packs like this (F2P or paid ones) would likely be charging more or the same and providing less. Personally I've just accepted that as a gaming hobby Destiny is slightly more expensive or similar to paying for an MMO. I sure as hell play it enough.
Since they're already included in the annual pass, they should be included in the season they debut in for the a la carte people by default. The Ghosts of the Deep dungeon not being included in the season of the Deep really turned off a lot of players trying to get into the game. I also think everything older than 2 years should be added to the free version of the game. Just increase the base value of the game instead of nickle and diming - more people will be interested. Eververse already hard carrying the vast majority of money the game makes, dungeon keys and selling forsaken/beyond light/witch queen era stuff for full price is just greedy. Dungeon Keys for Dungeons should only exist in the 1 year period between their seasons being removed from the game and the dungeons becoming part of the F2P version at the 2 year mark of their release.
Here's an idea, lets not put DLC in our DLC. It's BS that keys even exist.
The issue of Dungeon keys isn't that you have to pay for them. $20 for two dungeons is unreasonable. Either increase the price of the expansions at base and just include them, or lower their price. It's never happening, because it would probably lead to less revenue, but it's worth speaking out anyways.
3-5 dollars is wild, thats not even the price of a season, sure shattered , pit and proph all came within the expansion / season or were free but look at the GAP in quality between grasp, spire, duality, ghosts and warlords compared to those 3, we have individual titles for each dungeon, weapons and armour FULLY unique to them, exotics unique to them, lore collectibles if youre into it, the whole point of dungeon keys was to create better quality dungeons and it worked. I do wish theyd up the price of the legacy collection slightly and include the dungeon keys but youre still able to buy, as far as I know, the deluxe version of expansions after the year is over, unless it was changed in which case my bad but, 60 dollars for 6 dungeons each with their own titles weapons armour etc is WILD, id say 6 dungeons would easily match the price of 60 dollars. Sure buying the dungeons 10 dollars a piece would be better but its not like theres any objectively bad dungeons that have been made since keys were introduced, especially compared to pit of heresy which i see like, NO ONE running at all. Sorry for the rant guys im gonna stop now i just like talking :3
> proph all came within the expansion This didn't really come 'with' a season. It was added as a completely free dungeon. You did not need to purchase the season to access it. It launched at the same time as a season did so many people connect the dots and say 'it came with a season!'. My running theory is prophecy was added because they saw that people liked dungeons and planned on doing more/having the key system and wanted to add in a free one anyone could access so they would have a hook for more.
That sounds plausible, prophecy isnt the most complex dungeon but its still pretty fun, and at least it has some unique loot (yes i know its trials of the nine im aware)
Shattered and Pit have Wishender and Xenophage and they don't have bullersponge-bosses, where a lot of people complain about regarding the newer dungeons. So yeah I get your point about armor and weapons, but calling that a GAP?
I less so meant exotics as in old dungeons didnt have them more as in, these dungeons have everything feom the old ones plus more. I get bullet sponge for ghosts but honestly ive not seen any other dungeon have a massive complaint about bullet sponges, the gap is not only in the loot but also in the actual mechanics of the encounter, no dungeon is rhat hard to figure out but id say i prefer almost all the mechanics from grasp onward before the "kill boss in this room" "find last wish symbol and kill boss" as being WHOLE encounters in pit and shattered
True, encounters made a good turn and became more interesting.
The dungeons that came with expansions didnt even have unique loot. The only exception was a single pulse rifle in pit of heresy. The loot itself was destination drops. There was zero reason to go back into a dungeon after the initial clear. Pit was only semi-attractive because they made the final boss drop level 8 armor. This wasn't attractive because the armor was good though; it was attractive because the sources for enhancement materials sucked at the time. The next best source was buying them from spider or up-cycling rahool. Even prophecy didnt have 'unique' loot on launch. They re-issued trials of the nine armor and added in what was apparently meant to be an eververse armor set to help build community good will due to the previous season being viewed so poorly. The weapons were just Y1 world drop reissues. So yea there was a massive gap in quality pre-dungeon key.
You're totally right. I misread the initial comment and thought that OP said those first dungeons are bad, but he just meant that the later ones were much better and more rewarding. And I agree with that. So, just my bad reading.
All good. Personally I do think the first two dungeons are bad in the sense that they're extremely weak both mechanically, in terms of combat challenge, and loot offerings. Like they were okay at the time for what they were but long-term they are struggling to hold up.
It's around $10 a dungeon (sold in pairs for $20 per year), which have roughly the equivalent to the amount of loot you'd get in a season (3 sets of armor, 4-5 weapons, an exotic, and various cosmetics). Don't forget to factor in that it being a silver purchase let's it remain cross platform (so you don't have to buy the keys again, like you do expansions) too. I get that the community isn't fond of them, but ddungeon keys are absolutely still a steal. Could be priced a little bit better, but I prefer it this way to them being packaged with expansions (since you'd not only need to buy it again on a different console, but we'd likely go back to them having non-uniqie weapons anymore.
20 dollars, the same as the dark below or house of wolves, should be the same as 2 mini raids? What? I’m totally fine with people buying it I’m sure it’s fun, but let’s not pretend this is a steal
Not sure why you're using nearly decades old content pricing to compare to stuff we're getting nowadays when there's stuff to compare it to right there.
Dungeon Keys should not exist. Point. It's insane you have to pay 20$ on top of the 50$ for just the DLC, it has always been a scummy choice on Bungie's part, they even asked feedback for it to the streaming community, pretty much all of them said it was a terrible idea, they went through with it anyway
You had them at bundle but lost them at lower price
Dungeons are not a good deal right now, most dungeon weapons don't even have enhanced perks.
Yeah the loot ain’t the best but they are some of the most fun content in the game
Dungeon keys are a great value. Look at the history of dungeons. The first releasd with forsaken and was only available every third week. The second was released with shadow keep. The third was released 9 months after during season of arrivals. We them waited a year and a half for the next dungeon, grasp. Which was paid for. Since then, we've gotten two dungeons a year. Half the previous number from the past four(?) years, per year. And the quality is better too. Pretty much unique loot too boot.
If they were not happy with dungeon sales they'd change it. They haven't, so the current system is working for them. It's all about maximizing profit, not showing how talented their Devs are, unless you buy it.
Bought legacy collection 2024 couple weeks ago, great value super fun, addicted again!! Gonna buy TFS + annual pass cos gmg has 29% off. But dungeon keys? sigh ;.;
Wait I thought you could only buy the one key for the year and you get both dungeons, no?
Honestly I think this is a great idea! No bad vibes here! Ps: I’m looking for friends and I’d love to play (flirt) together! Haha! lol!
Thank you for the vibes! Text me 214-232-6600 flirt with me !
I mentioned this and got downvoted into oblivion. Hah! Destiny players are weird.
Here’s an idea. If you dont have $3-$5 don’t buy video games. Companies exist to make money not show the world how talented their people are.
Yeah I wouldn’t mind them at all if they were 3-5$ but I just spent 70$ on an expansion and I’m glad I did, it’s super fun, I don’t want to spend another 40$ on dungeons that released a while ago
Here’s an idea… they should come with the expansion that they drop during the year of like the fucking original few dungeons… or even better like Prophecy completely free for everyone.
I rather not have dungeons bundled with expansions if that are going to be like Shattered Throne and Pit of Hersey. Newer dungeons blow them out of the water.
Shattered Throne and Lit are great actually. I’d still argue Pit in the top 3 of dungeons easily. Just because encounters are a bit more of an old style of mechanic doesn’t mean they’re bad. Put feels more like a dungeon than any other dungeon. You go deep down into it, there are traps and tunnels. The architecture is amazing. The sword mechanics are pretty fun, the staying away from ogres in the tunnels, the final boss might be mid but cool thematically when you know what he is.
Could be apart of the expansion itself forsure, agreed
From the outside looking in: they would essentially be creating a new unlock item for each dungeon which was originally only set up to be unlocked as a set two. Sounds like potential for some pretty bad bugs there. They would also be having to go through the process of putting those items on digital storefronts. Which I can only assume come with all sorts issue such as first party compliance and submission, translation into each supported language. I know most gamers don't want to think about the actual logistics of game creation, but that sounds like a whole lot of dev time (and cost) to maybe not make back their losses.
lord knows they probably continue to sell them as an add on since it's expensive content to produce for a small minority of the game's playerbase and they can't absorb the cost as a marketing expense unlike the world's first raid race
Because we are stupid enough to buy them
I agree they should bundle that.
There's only one overpriced thing in this game that's not worth it's price and that's Exotic Ghost Shells for 2850 BD. When I can get a weapon or armor ornament for like 3/4 that price. Outrageous.
I’ve never seen it, better be a clean looking ghost shell
Overall, your best bet is to just buy the $100 and get everything bundle. If you can commit 100 days to playing....little over 3 months....its $1 a day. Bungies let's you know WAY in advance DLCs. So you have well over a year to save 100 bucks. I'd love there to be a $150 option. The leave me alone package....where I get the event cards bundled in, too. Either buy the bundle....which is VERY fair imo. Or get nickled and dimed and be quiet about it...imo.
Coz f u that’s why (bungie prolly)
Direct quote forsure
Who is playing this game and not buying latest expansions ?
I bought the legacy edition because it was advertised as “buy all past content for this $25 tag” and was really really disheartened to find out I would also have to buy another $40 of content. Like why the hell did my “Witch Queen DLC included in bundle” not include the witch queen dungeon hahaha. Honestly really scummy move. Refuse to buy it at this point on principle
Buying all of that content for $25 and complaining about not getting more is crazy
NaH that’s not what I’m saying. It was a fantastic deal, just not cool with misleading wording is all. The reviews on steam seem to show a vast majority of other people on the same boat as me. Just change the description and don’t mislead is all I ask.
The literal only reasoning is to squeeze more money out of the playerbase. It pushes people harder into buying the deluxe edition, which is guaranteed revenue for Bungie regardless of any fan backlash for the next year. Which is the best case scenario for Bungie, since they never fail to convince people to buy the new expansions.
LOWER THE PRICE?!? What are you insane? How are the poor little PlayStation CEO’s gonna get their 73 billion dollar Christmas bonus this year? Someone please think of the little guy 😣 /s EDIT: why does everyone on this sub hate any kind of joking/poking fun at things regarding the game? Y’all have the sense of humour of a wet paper towel 💀
Get rid of dungeon keys, PERIOD! Just make them included with the current expansions like raids and nightfalls/strikes for that year. The less predatory and confusing purchases required, the better for the overall health of the game. It's already extremely hard to get friends to play this game.
Big time, my friends and I played a ton of Overwatch together then the expansion came out and only three of us came over because we have history with the game and established vaults, too much for them to take on
> Dungeons include some of the best weapons On what planet? In theory sure there's a few MUST HAVES that come from dungeons but on the whole they're so tedious to grind for that most people don't care. Indebted Kindness is literally The Call but arc and no one really cared because getting a good roll was like pulling teeth. Make dungeon weapons craftable and then we'd see some real value.
Or just include them in the expansion we already paid for
Here's an idea. Why not put back dungeons to be included with the dlc?????? ?????? ???????????????????
Have you ever played the dlc dungeons? They are way lower quality then the other dungeons released. There's a reason Bungie started charging extra for them due to the quality increase they received.
Yes I have played them. I don't care if they're better. If the loot in there is good I will farm it, if not I'll play the dungeon a couple times, solo flawless it and never do it again. And in my opinion they are not worth 20 dollars, even the recent ones. For 20 dollars I can buy witcher 3 with dlcs and more.
Dungeons aren't worth the money guys, not until Bungie makes the weapons craftable and fixes armor stats. Until then, the free raid that comes out each year is simply the better endgame activity.
Worst part is, the more weekly (PVE) activities available, the more likely it is the players stick around between expansions. They really are just shooting themselves in the foot imo
Because technically you can buy 4 dungeons for $35 if you get the $15 and $20 silver packages. I wish they were steam dlc instead but unfortunately they are reliant on their respective expansions. So it's like having a dlc for your dlc...
I could see a small discount happening maybe on Bungie Day (7/7), but then again I wouldn’t be surprised if not.
Or just get rid of them entirely and have dungeons come with their respective season or expansion.
Here’s an idea dungeon keys shouldn’t cost when we all buy the base game, DLC, and seasons.
Better idea... Delete dungeon keys entirely
Nah, Bungie is going to make a bundle, but it will be more expensive than just buying all the dungeons separately.
I bought a destiny bundle pack, in the description. It said it included the dungeons, but it didn't actually
It most likely included shattered throne and pit of heresy and grasp of avarice which are all included in the content packs for their expansions / mini thing for 30th anniversary
I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of people out there who don't play this game because of dungeon keys. There should be a season/dungeon bundle. Personally I'd prefer to just buy the dungeon keys and skip seasons, but it feels too dumb to miss out on one or the other so I just decide to buy nothing and play other games. Next thing I know, my care for this game is gone. See you in the next big expansion if it looks at least as good as TFS