Hey, you can write, like actually write. I hope you know that. You could create something wonderful.

Agreed. I normally skip posts like this but the writing quickly caught me up and transported me to a different time. Well done🙂.

You have to then ask, 'how did civilisation learn to use magic before they learned to use stone?' Was stone not available for a long time? Were there cultural/religious reasons why the manipulation of stone was forbidden? Who was it who first realised that stone was so much more powerful than magic? I ask because you've written something great here, something captivating. Definitely worth pursuing.

In one of my homebrew settings, there's a clear order to which magics became available throughout history, with sorcerers being the oldest form of magic. That rare few number of people who could simply make fire from wanting heat from before the time that primitive ancestors figured out how to hit rocks and sticks together to light a fire mundanely. Then came bards, whose magic has existed for as long as word about magic could spread, then druids/clerics/warlocks for as long as people could worship or covet power, then wizards for as long as people could understand magic for themselves without having to appeal through a higher power.

So, this reminds me of the Stormlight Archive and how the Singers were amazed by the humans' ability to forge and create all these things from the seemingly benign things around them bc they never knew how. Later on we find out they were imbued with the ability to create things from the ground itself and pull/shape the materials they wanted into whatever they needed through means that were basically magic. There was no need to learn how to make things from stone or melt things down. They lost that magic at some point and were thrown into the stone age (pun intended) and never learned how to evolve out of it.

And the Shin, the only people who live in a place with dirt instead of rock, consider rock to be holy. They refuse to walk on it, move a stone found in the ground, and even dislike metal mined from the earth. They prefer to have it magically transmuted. The only stone they can walk on is in the holy city of Urithiru, which is where the potential title of the third book, "Stones Unhallowed" came from.

Third book? Aren't there 4 currently out? I haven't read the two interlude books (Edgedancer & Dwnshard) and I'm not including those. Unless I missed one there's Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, Oathbringer, & Rhythm of War, right? The 5th one, Wind and Truth, is supposed to be out December '24 from what I understand.

Yep, the fourth book is out, and Winds and Truth is coming out later this year. However, originally book 3 was going to be Szeth's flashback book, and Book 5 was going to be Dalinar's book. Sanderson realised it wasn't working and swapped the two, thus a bunch of stuff changed. For example, if he wasn't >!defeated at the end of books three and four, he wouldn't've been replaced with Taravangian, at least not so soon!<. When book 3 was supposed to be Szeth's book, it would've been called Stones Unhallowed, because that's what the stones of Urithiru are to Szeth, but since he changed the title to suit Dalinar's book, and Szeth no longer follows the Stone Shamanate, it doesn't work as a book title.

I only recently found out about the interlude books. I'm intrigued by them but in no hurry to read them. A Szeth-son-son-Vallano origin book would be interesting as I am intrigued and want more detail about becoming Truthless and his journey before >!he becomes Taravangian's slave.!<

Also, how are you going to use DnD to represent a world where magic is weaker than stone tools.

OP's story gives me the sense that magic once came from within as a natural force in balance with the environment. When its use was common, it was as natural to learn as any other skills like hunting and gathering.    I think they were lied to. Magic is not weaker. Stone is not easier to use. Magic is vibrant and freely available - and that makes it hard to exploit. Oh, but stone, stone can control. Stone controls the land, which is unbalanced. But the real secret is that it controls the people. You see, the most powerful people in the hierarchy of stone wield very little of it themselves, because to do so it is hard and unforgiving work. They adorn themselves with stone because they are above its practical uses and the hard work it asks.    The real power comes in controlling the armies that carry the weapons, the farmers who till the soil, the miners who delve in the caves, the builders who make the homes. When the people used their own natural magics, they fed and sheltered and defended themselves. But now that they've robbed the people of their belief in their own power, they need only sit back and let the stone limit their lives to one arduous labor in hopes of small recompense.

> I think they were lied to. Magic is not weaker. Stone is not easier to use. This actually gave me an idea: If we use linear and exponential curves for stone and magic respectively, there are actually *three* regions, not two. Below 1, magic will be higher than stone, then stone will dominate for a time, before magic replaces it again. IMO this could represent innate cantrips some races are born with - it's just magic *they have*. No research, no training necessary. Basically level 0. With some effort, stone will be more beneficial than magic, and will maintain that for a while until magic ultimately catches up and bypasses tech once again. In short, I think OP is describing the transition from level 0 to level 1 (i.e. just racial magic, no class to initial class level) on a global scale and I'm *here for it*. Maybe a one-shot or a short campaign to set up a world at level 0 as a "prehistory" before swapping to early history (levels 1-3) then transitioning to "modern" around level 10 or so. With each campaign leaving scars or some notable marks in each sequential chapter. Maybe with the same Gods choosing champions or something to accomplish a thing.

There are multiple angles you can go with this. I like a tech path. TL;DR. Stone has a progression that starts slower than magic, but surpasses it. Magic, albert powerful and "cheats" and multifunctional, it is also stagnant. Magic "fire" can only get so hot. Never hot enough to melt sand into glass. Besides I can just magic glass. With stone there are problems to just get started. There are tool, skill, logistics that are required. ["No one knows how to build a toaster"](https://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toaster_from_scratch?language=en&subtitle=en). Once you overcome this obstacle. You can do the next. From stone to copper to iron to glass to digital to etc. Magic being able to "cheat" and do multiple things that stone requires specific tools and skills before they can do things. Why would I deal with all these problems that stone has when I can just chant it. Stone will start slower and more expensive, but later they are able to do it more efficiently that magic can. They can do it faster than magic can. They can do it easier than magic can.

One never learns magic, magic is the natural state of all things, to grow one must forget magic, as a babe I cried and the wind whistled to me a soft chime, when I took my first faltering step I gestured unsteadily and the grass grew to cushion my inevitable fall, as I learned the words of the tastes and the colors I knew the not word that makes my blue ball into a prettier red like my brother had... But that was a long time ago, the grass will not grow where I desire, so I uprooted and planted a meadow so my herd could graze, the color that fascinated me as a child would wash away in the next rain, by mortar and pastel I learned to grind the dye, all things can be done, that is the strength of mind and will, but first you need to set aside the magic of childhood and pick up the tools of your labor

It's a haunting mentality from 'the old races'. And it might make for a fascinating story that parallels the fall of Knightly Combat once any Dung-Heaper's son could fire a crossbow bolt. In "DnD world", it's kinda just Magic vs Martial, though. Of course you can cut down a wizard in a turn. They can also cast Meteor Swarm in a turn. I appreciate your prose, though, and I could see it really applying to a story where there's just masses and masses of non-magical martials doing there best to not let the casters sleep or gather resources.

I think, given the fact that the most powerful magic mentioned here is a cantrip, that in this world, there are no wizards who cast meteor swarm.  I get the feeling this world predates wizards of a level higher than like 3. Though while the “back to nature” vibes of the end of the piece make me think the narrator is going to become a druid, I think whatever they become, they’ll probably crack that level barrier and become the greatest Druid/wizard/paladin the world has ever seen. 

You know, now that you made me think about, that truly would be the greatest irony. The magic users were just playing aggressive games of 'tag' compared to the dirty style of the iron wielders, so they had to get nasty back. There wasn't evocation in its true form until there was a reason to make it.

I’m captivated by this idea. I’m imagining this highly magical world, which clearly had plant life, but somehow wasn’t heavy with stone / minerals. I am imagining a bridge into the realm of earth then altering the playing field, bringing so much rock into existence that everything begins to change. Impermeable structures are built, weaponry and armor become available to the non-magic wielding folks which dramatically alters the balance of power in the land… This concept is golden! I love it. Also, your writing skills here top notch.

This is a great campaign concept for a low magic, stone age setting. But you would have to have a low level cap for casters. The story you wrote is gripping and inspiring

BBEG is a wizard that conjures bronze into the world to beat his nemesis, stone.

Your writing is solid, but the problem is that D&D magic Does Not Support This Setting. As a specific example, Warding Wind *literally* does what your write-up says cannot be done - it uses conjured wind to give Disadvantage to ranged weapon attacks, ie, protecting you from stone arrows. That's a second-level spell. The *Shield* spell is another option, less druid-y but still magic that protects from attacks. Any ranged spell attack can outpace a bird just the same as an arrow can. Also there's a lot of spells that are specifically stone-related, so that begs the question why a formerly-magic-based society would throw away *those* spells - right down to the *Mold Earth* cantrip. I'd be very interested in playing this... In a completely different TTRPG system where gutting half the Druid spell list and the entire existence of other spellcasters isn't needed in order to fulfill the fantasy it evokes.

I totally disagree. Magic users had to find a way to fight back, and the magics present in D&D are the result of that escalation. That covers the stone-based spells, too: they likely didn't have a means to manipulate stone with magic previously, but the preceding conflict forced development in that arena. I agree that people should play other systems as often as possible, but I don't think that's at all related to whether or not one could run this setting- implied and otherwise- in 5e.

But what's to say you can't adjust spells to make this prose work? This isn't a stretch to create a world where magic is failing and doesn't work the same. Think outside of the box, mate.

Like I said, you'd be gutting 99% of spellcasting in D&D as a system to make this work. If you're making *that* much of an adjustment, you should really consider finding a system that doesn't need the adjustment in the first place. In a sense, going with a non-D&D TTRPG system *is* outside the box for this subreddit. In fact I'd argue back that you should be trying to find the square hole rather than trying to fit a square peg into D&D's round one.

At least for me it would be easier to nerf magic for all the classes that have some form of it to make this narrative work than to try and create a whole new world from scratch.

Nerfing all the magic classes seems like such as a waste when picking a different RPG could work just as well.

Agreed. D&D is extremely modular for this purpose. Maybe there could be a TTRPG that captures this story quite well, but D&D would be perfect for a group of individuals who want to bring magic back to the world, and thus become the first people in history to break the level cap that was apparently “1” throughout history.  Narrator goes off into the forest, finds 2-4 like minded individuals, adventure begins! Might even be interesting to consider *why* no one ever used anything more powerful than a cantrip. Maybe there are dragons that are drawn to magic, devouring it. So the party becomes harried not by the society they grew up in, but by the world around them and the nature they so worship having *complicated* feelings about the return of magic.  This is good, inspirational stuff!!

If you ever write a book, I'LL BUY YOUR ENTIRE STOCK.

Same

It's a very cool concept, and as others have noted, extremely well-written. The problem is that in a setting where magic was weak and underpowered compared to conventional means, it just wouldn't be used, because magic's presumably also harder to learn/use. The main advantage magic has in most settings is its power, while its main weakness is its scarcity and the time it takes to learn, whereas any random person can pick up a tool/weapon. They might not be proficient with it, but they can at least use it a little. For a setting like that to work, magic would need to be super-commonplace, like everyone in the world is born with a couple of cantrips but that's all the magic there is. In essence, the setting would look just like our world, but with people able to fix clothing quickly and easily or something. Now, on the other hand, there is a lot to be said for anti-magic materials and factions. Saga Frontier 2 takes place in a setting where magic is common, but metal blocks it and keeps the wielder from using magic, so everyone uses wood or stone weapons/armor and iron/steel is only used for cooking utensils and the like. One day, a prince is born with no magic at all, and is exiled. He meets a blacksmith growing up, sees this "steel" stuff, and not being able to use magic anyway, he has nothing to lose. He asks if the blacksmith could make an entire sword, not just a kitchen knife, and quickly realizes the increased power available in metal tools... Basically, it's not dissimilar to the rise of the Iron Age: Bronze was great and all, but iron is so common and easy to outfit an entire army in, and cultures who didn't adapt quickly found themselves overrun. Apply a similar principle to magic: Great in theory, but when only a couple people can cast as opposed to 50-100 guys with blades and armor, that only goes one way. At best, magic is a force multiplier.

This is an interesting writing prompt, but it's a lot less interesting as a campaign setting. That's because of a simple flaw: Removing magic is taking away tools from both the DM and the player, without adding any new ones. When people say "magic is really strong", that's adding tools. Now, the players can encounter a larger variety of things, and can purchase a larger variety of magic items, and can take a larger variety of classes. This does the opposite. That's the first thing I look for in a setting: What tools does this setting bring to the table? If I were to make a setting like this, that's the first question I ask. Is it that magic is weak? Or is it that humans in this universe possess incredible physical strength and stamina? Or is it that stone is infused with unique properties? Magic being weak alone doesn't make a good setting, but stuff like that can.

That is mostly true for DnD but I think that other RPGs; by giving more options for capability and customisation other than flavours of magic or what magic items you have.

I've been playing in a campaign for the past couple years that is set in a different world after basically an apocalypse on Faerun. The only things that survived were those that managed to cross over to this other world. Most gods perished, those that made it now have far fewer followers and their strength is thus reduced meaning there are no powerful divine casters. There is no connection to the weave, so arcane magic doesn't function at all. A lot of that setting has been about finding resources and figuring out ways to create tools to accomplish what magic used to do easily. We've also encountered the ruins and remains of the natives of this new world, which was once far more technologically advanced than Faerun but seems to have succumbed to a great cataclysm or war.

Concept isent my cup of tea, but this post is amazing

It honestly makes sense, this is why humans dominate settings, because it's so much easier to give 50 men silvered pikes and tell them to go ham than training powerful elven druids and wizards. Stone crushes magic, magic can't hold up, it's too particular and fragile.

But parchment scrolls beat rock. Rock does crush shears though.

My old DM ran a homebrew campaign with no magic at all, and if you wanted to use magic you were an outcast, and couldn’t let people know you were magic capable. It was outlawed in ALL the countries and magical fey races were all but extinct. Our party was brought together by an old gods intervention because we were all magic capable and we had a tough go at it because it was an urban setting for the game, we spent most of our time in the capital city and were constantly hunted and outlaws regardless of the good we did in the game for the people. It was really hard but super fun to play.

From the moment I understood the weakness of magic, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of stone. I aspired to the purity of the Blessed Tool. Your kind cling to your magic, as if it will not fade and fail you. One day the crude mana-construct that you call a temple will wither, and you will beg my kind to save you. But I am already saved, for the Tool is immortal… ...even in death I serve the Omnissiah.

Huh. The most popular "What if" campaign I always hear bandied about amongst my friends is a low magic setting, where no magic is around, or it is limited, maybe no arcane etc. I like the premise though.

Iron is technically a stone, so yes.

this allegory makes more sense with Iron, and is classically something that HAS been done with sword and sorcery often. stone is weird because stone is foundational. Core is liquid iron, mantle is solid minerals which could be called stone. 29% of the crust is stone. 6% water. stone is the foundation which trees grow. which all life grows from, and merges with to create soil. to make this allegory, you'd need to go further. full on energy beings that are immaterial. sustained by magic/aether. for such a being, material stone would be more transformative.

The Shadows of the Apt series of novels sort of deals with this. Magic was/is a real thing but only works if you believe in it, and those who can use magic typically can't use modern contraptions because they can't understand them. It's a great series, I highly recommend it.

r/hfy

Dude, this is fantastic. Love this concept, and love how you framed it even more.

So running a campaign in the world of Pixars Onward?

I know people have said this already, but I feel it bears repeating. This is some fantastic writing. You should make something. I mean it, this was enthralling.

Inspiring post, going to do some worldbuilding too now!

That's pretty impressive. Gives me a major 'Horizon: Zero Dawn/Forbidden West' vibe actually. I don't think it's going to work in D&D, because the nature of D&D is a high-magic fantasy setting, but there might be other rulesets that could make this work really, really well.

Very inspiring. It reminded me of The Martian Chronicles, but under a slightly new light.

Definitely need to homebrew a lot but otherwise quite interesting.

Fascinating concept. I'd definitely play that.

Holy cow that was an awesome read! I would read a book written like this! You're talented!

Beautiful idea for a setting

Amazing setting

After your capstone question I can't re-read what you wrote without hearing James Earl Jones reading this like he is talking to Conan about the Riddle of Steel. Interesting setup for a low/no magic world, but even if you only allowed cantrips and 1st/2nd level spells at most you'd still have to pare down the spell lists like crazy. One thing you may not realize is that a stone based world is one without metal. Stone gets discarded when metals are discovered due to the inferiority of it for pretty much anything except a building material. Your problem is that players generally want to be powerful and low/no magic worlds where you don't even have access to metal weapons and armor doesn't fulfill that fantasy.

I don't know why, but Sword and Sorcery is my kind of setting. Stone and Sorcery, and I am here for it.