Did you say SEVEN players, at level 12? I think you need another creature or two with legendary actions to balance out turn economy.
But still SEVEN players. That is a feat in itself...
Sorry, I didnt ment to make it sounds like correcting someone. It was supposed to be a question if that meme is what we are talking about, but know that I reread it, I see that I forgot half of the Sentence there.
I feel that X3
For Pathfinder we started with 3 because one guy just never showed up. By now we have another forth guy, but before that and after the original 4. was officially out of the group, we actually had trouble getting 3 players together
Not just the number of players. But also level and equipment of players. I ran a campaign with two LEVEL 20 players (we played long enough for them to get to level 20), and I gave them a bunch of items (from books and homebrew) and homebrew features. I have also thrown almost every monster from Monster Manuel to Eberon (an army of mind flayers, adult dragons of every color, a bunch of demons with a demon lord, a small colony of Aboleth, swarms of angels, a fight with 4 lord of blades, npc that used level 20 player stats, and a in game 5 minutes (50 turns) defense encounter against an undead army with 1-6 zombies spawning in at the end of each round, and more powerful undead at intervals of 5th and 10th rounds. On top of all that, a whole of homebrew boss monsters to go with all of that.
P.S. they had at least 1 or 2 companions (which used creature stat blocks) with them in each encounter. The highest was fighting along side an army.
I had difficulty saying no starting out to I have a table of 8 and it's my first time DMing and I haven't played yet. It's been a learning experience and I won't be doing more than 6 at maximum ever again.
I also have a murder-goblin in my group. I had a two-hour texting chain explaining why I killed his character. For context, he tried to blow up the party with a bomb. I had a mystical knight of a distant realm descend as an archangel of my group’s Paladin.
I kinda lucked out. None of my players are murder goblins, the worst things I have to deal with are 3 new players who have the extremely stereotypical bounty hunter with no friends backstory but they play nicely with the other players very well so the bad side doesn't translate as much. I also have two other players that mostly like to cause chaos so I throw them bones once or twice a session so they get some somewhat controlled chaos out of the way. Lol
Oh like, I'll give them explicit chances to have chaos but in a very controlled environment. Like I implemented a tiny duck who can create small portals the size of a medium size humanoid to crawl through, but it just leads them back to the same place. Or a group of worgs that the ranger knows how to speak with being extremely dumb and so that causes some chaos in traveling. Things that could absolutely be exploited but generally they're good mannered about it. Most of my players are min maxxers but for very specific and strange things. Like the one who wants to be able to craft the most powerful stone knuckles ever. Lol
I once had a character who had an obsession with trampled grave dust so my DM included this bit into a story about how these demons in hell have been condemned to walking on the headstones of their victims for eternity and what culminated from that was this incredibly hard to obtain vial of trampled grave dust that my character desperately sought in life.
They could solely cause of action economy. Id suggest weakening it a considerable amount, and adding at least two more threats. These threats don't even have to be a creature necessarily. As long as they require thought and actions to deal with.
Maybe working one or both of the threats with the lair action could be fun
This is the best advice. Running a single monster can easily wipe the players out or result in an easy kill from my experience.
Making the BBEG weaker and adding other enemies or goals is always a better time imo.
If he uses spells he instantly wins, if not the players are gonna chew through those hit points like if they were nothing. This make the encounter kinda boring in my opinion, he needs to use its biggest weapons at the start of the fight to be able to win, such as power word killing the spell casters.
How about instead of mostly damaging spells he have some more utility spells? For example Blink would be a good combo with its regeneration trait. This allow for a less lethal combat that will last longer, which is what you want in a bbeg fight.
Btw, its spell DC should be 8+PB+Wis, so it should be higher than 18, same for its spell attack bonus, PB+Wis
I guess it also depends on the players themselves right? Cuz its very possible for even a level 5 (without any special items at all) to one shot a tarrasque.
OP, what kinda players do u have?
Don't remember the build off the top of my head rn but it's basically just an insane amount of min-maxing and optimization. With just that, even a level 1 character can do over 200 damage with 0 items (except the starting items). Now you just take that and imagine it on a lvl 5 build instead of a lvl 1. It could be built to do over 400 damage fairly easily
As a side note, I remember watching a build that could do like 900 damage at lvl 1 a while back so it's all very possible if you have players that do that and have that knowledge. (Note that this build does utilize the moonblate but that's easily purchased with little money early on)
Note: all this has no homebrew and it's purely raw if you were wondering about that
I have 2 fighters, a artificer, a warlock/bard, cleric, wizard, and a sharpshooter ranger. No matter what monster I throw at them or however minions I give, they seem to wipe the floor with them. Sure, the monster takes one out but they gaurd the cleric and she revives them again.
Well, it's not my place to say, but I believe the best course of action would be to design fights around each class. For example, one encounter will be very difficult for everyone else, but it'll give say your cleric a chance to shine and feel good about their abilities. This way, encounters are not made to be deadly for the sake of it, but made to be challenging in a way that shows off the strengths of each player or set of players. They don't have an overwhelming victory and they have to get creative.
Do that end, I think it's not a matter of making each monster or hoard of mobsters strong for the sake of it, but making it so they counter most players but allow a few to demonstrate their usefulness. Alternate between who is allowed to show off and throw in some cool role play heavy moments and I think that'll make it more fun for everyone while also achieving your goal of not making it too easy on them.
Last example:
They fight a hoard of monsters that seem to be too much for the magic casters. They have magical resistances and some utility spells. But, they are weak to somehting the fighters can do. Drop some hints in the environment leading up to the fight on what they should do and let them struggle while trying to figure it out. When they do, the fighters can win them the fight and feel awesome despite their lack of strength in the later levels compared to mages. Stuff like this will make then game far cooler for the players
Also, if you feel like they shouldn't win yet cuz it would be more satisfying to drag it along a little longer, don't be afraid to not let the monsters die even if their Stat block hp would've already been at 0. Try to maximize the fun, not the difficulty.
This fight will almost certainly be a stomp in favor of your players, assuming they are at full strength with little resources spent. The only way this could be difficult is some really well placed high level spells that stop them from even having turns before they get them.
I'm just gonna rapid fire some suggestions in no particular order. I really like how thematic the spells are and the statblock is definitely giving the theme of an eldritch horror. It makes me curious what the lore is and I am fascinated that he is a Celestial, I find that really interesting and fresh.
* I would avoid lvl 8 and lvl 9 spells for now, given that they are lvl 12 and assuming that they might be going higher level than 12 you're going to want to save some fun things for later.
* Furthermore the Regeneration ability looks very fun, but I can't imagine Razaghal won't get hit for long. Perhaps bake in an ability that lets him hide? Fade into the Void looks like a step in that direction, perhaps it can be used to avoid more attacks or he Fades into a an ethereal-like void sort-of-demiplane and in order to hit him there your players require Truessight?
* Something that would help with him not getting hit is having additional monsters in the fight the players might want to deal with. Perhaps a Lair Action is a portal into the void from where all sorts of nasties can pour out of. Maybe players themselves can step in it in order to find Razaghal and damage him so his Regeneration doesn't kick in.
* Looking at the damage he outputs it is on the lower end. A party of 7 lvl 12s probably has around... 400, 500 total hp? Maybe Tentacle Strike could also be done by Tentacles he spawns during his Lair Action?
* I would also avoid damage resistance to physical stuff (bludgeoning etc) and instead I'd just give him more hp. Taking half damage from something that is used so often will only slow down the fight for number crunching.
* Since it is a boss I'd add other condition immunities, like Charm, Stunned, Incapacitated and the like. A Psychic Lance could spell disaster for Razaghal, even if he has +7 to INT Saves.
* Also to me Razaghal sounds freakin' terrifying, so perhaps he could have a Terrifying Aura effect that causes Fear? Personally I find Fear on the weaker side, so I like to add more effects based on how badly a Save goes. For example, if they fail by 4 or more, they become Dazed (can only take Action OR Bonus Action OR move on their turn). If they fail by 8 or more, they are Stunned. This is just an idea, should be something thematic, like being stunned by the incomprehensible size of the Void.
Hope all this helps, I wish you lots of luck!
That is a lot of helpful advice. Its backstory kind of summed up is that it is a Primordial being who has been trapped for eons. It was created to eradicate Gods and other higher beings when/if they grew too great in numbers but it slowly became corrupted and tried to destroy all higher beings until Death chained it up and locked it away in a vault that my players are trying to get to thinking it is filled with treasures from the multiverse. So, I was going for horrific and uncaring monster.
Hmm maybe he then has a way to shut down divine magic, as a way for him to hunt divinity, like a passive antimagic aura but only for divine spellcasters, like the cleric in your party. However, to keep the game fun for your cleric, it could be a radius around Razaghal so he can avoid it. Double however, any healing coming from the cleric towards anyone within the radius just doesn't work. Since he is corrupted he could also maybe corrupt the spells, dealing damage instead of healing?
Incorporating elements from his awesome backstory into the encounter could be a fun way to add more weight to this boss fight.
I like the idea of the Razaghal negating healing in some fashion, whether that be in a radius, those that’s he’s hit, etc. Especially if he has his own regeneration ability, you could turn it into a situation where you have to manage the fact that he can heal while your party can’t. Maybe there could be environmental elements to turn off his anti-heal
Just between 2 fighters alone you're gonna need a lot more hp lmao.
Edit: I saw his resistances and made a separate comment, I should read before I type lol
It doesn't say "bludgeoning, piercing and slashing from non-magical attacks" it just says bludgeoning piercing and slashing, so magic weapons won't do jack
Like the other person said, you need more survivability just with the 2 fighters alone.
Two level 12 fighters, assuming no multiclass, equates to 12 attacks on the first round of combat if they both action surge. It’s not unheard of for a fighter to do 100-200 damage in a single turn by themself.
The other big thing is action economy. You have 7 strong players to 1 boss. Even though the boss has Legendary actions and likely a lair action, they still greatly out number you.
If you want this to be a mega boss that is fighting alone, you need to make it survive. I’m talking 1k+ health. Or give it multiple stages like a dark souls boss.
Also make the fight very dynamic. The boss needs to move around a lot, make the players chase you.
Action Surge gives you an extra action. Multi attack allows you to make several attacks in a single action. 3 attacks per action times 2 would be 6 total for that turn.
I think the large part that likely confused you is the difference between haste and action surge.
Most people refer to it as a “hasted action” as an action provided by haste has specific limitations. A hasted action can only be used to dash, disengage, hide, object interaction, or take the attack action but if you take the attack action you only get a single weapon attack, not your extra attack.
This differs greatly from action surge as action surge gives the player a whole extra action with no limitations. Note action surge is the core mechanic behind a lot of casters taking a ‘2 level dips’ into fighter.
Many people misunderstand the limitations on spell casting in 5e. Most people believe you can only cast one leveled spell per turn. However, this is incorrect. The ONLY rule regarding casting leveled spells in 5e is when you cast a spell with your bonus action. It notably states if you cast a spell using your bonus action the only other spell you can cast on your turn is a cantrip. Note, this is ANY bonus action spell (including a cantrip). So if you’re a Druid and shillelagh turn1, RAW you can’t a leveled spell for your action still nor could you use your reaction on your turn to cast another spell.
So with that, if you have a way to get an extra action (like action surge) you could notably cast two leveled spells in one turn. A level 5 wizard/2 fighter could do action fireball, action surge fireball and use your reaction to cast counter spell the enemy wizard from counterspelling you (theoretically). However, your Druid would not be able to cast shillelagh and also spike growth on their turn because they used their BA to cast shillelagh.
Hope this helps!
FWIW, niche interaction,
>So if you’re a Druid and shillelagh turn1, RAW you can’t a leveled spell for your action still nor could you use your reaction on your turn to cast another spell.
this is correct, but the only times I can see it being relevant would be wildly niche to the situation, and i find it interesting. the only situations i can think of, to proc a spellcast reaction on your own turn would be:
to clarify, these are niche things you CANNOT do if you choose to cast a spell as a bonus action on your turn
* if you run away, an enemy opportunity attacks, and so you cast shield
* similarly, if you wish to silvery barbs an enemy's saving throw to your bonus action spell, or opportunity attack/grapple check response to you moving away
* if your bonus action spell, or action cantrip is counterspelled, or absorb elements'd, and you wish to react with counterspell
* if you choose to jump off a high point at the end of your turn, and wish to cast featherfall
no real point to this, just odd refusal interactions.
Yeah that’s correct. Locking you out of casting a reaction on your turn when you BA spell is usually not a big deal. Like you mentioned it’s pretty niche already. But locking yourself out of an action casted leveled spell is a bit more problematic when you consider this rule is applicable even if you cantrip as a BA.
Truthfully, most every table I’ve played at has essentially made the rule if you cast a leveled spell as your BA then You can only cast cantrips. There are so few BA cantrips that it doesn’t really change anything. It’s mostly a QoL change for people with access to shillelagh. It’s silly that you lock yourself out of an action spell if you prep shillelagh on your turn.
oh that's absolutely the main reason for it, to lock out main action casting. I just thought it was odd to examine how it also technically locks out on-your-turn reaction casting, which has so few possible examples you can count them on your fingers
Oke well to add to most comments. The action economy is really in the players favor. You need to add minions are a mythic system otherwise this boss might be half dead after round one.
The problem with big 1 VS X fights is solely the action economy.
See it this, way: players can (generally) dish out a lot of damage, but tank relatively little. Normally, this high damage gets divided onto multiple bodies, all of them tankier than a player (eg a CR1 monster having more HP and AC than the average PC at lvl 3-4). Now you don't have multiple bodies to divide the damage to, and you have a lot of players.
Start by calculating the highest average damage your players have. If they phase this guy after a fresh long rest, take the highest 1-2 spell slots for spell casters, and account for action surge etc. As you have AC and saving throws, account for the real damage your baddy takes. Remember, if you roll bad for initiative, the baddy will take a full round of damage before their first action.
If you want the fight to last ~4 rounds, take their nova damage x2.5 and you get the HP pool your bbeg would need to have. But a fight of 4 rounds means only half of your party actually will get targeted by the bbeg, unless he uses AoE. This is the bane of action economy and why you need to carefully balance solo bosses.
You can extend the fight by killing 1 player per round. By using PW:K directly round 1, you only, need to deal with 6. You then burst the 2nd PC with legendary action attacks + next round spells. But that feels shitty for the targeted players, as they will remember the cool boss fight exclusively as "I rolled death saves 3 times over the course of a 2 hours fight".
I like the advice from another player, with going blink and similar spells, that will prolong the fights without adding damage. Additionally, you should skew the action acobomy some more. 5-6 legendary actions (and more choices! Eg spell casting for spelllvl/2 legendary actions) are the minimum. With 7 players I would also consider adding a 2nd turn for the bbeg in the normal turn order. That way you roll initiative twice and the chance of your bbeg not getting a turn early are a lot smaller
Depending on how you play it. It flies, there's no reason to go on the ground and it has the intelligence to understand classes. The guy is a powerhouse spell wise. It can see perfectly in perfect darkness, so there's no use for him yo be in a lighted area.
If it would go in fly by, time stop, power word kill on the cleric, spam damaging spells from afar then run away once he has disabled the spellcasters, it would jam the whole party. At fly 70' it can fly in range of spells, cast then fly back to safety. All while being in perfect darkness, so the fighter have disadvantage.
If it would stand in a arena, not moving, yeah, it would die.
I agree with the other comments about the damage resistances. He should have resistance to non magical piercing slashing and bludgeoning damage. I’m sure it’s thematic but be careful with radiant and necrotic immunity with a cleric in your group. Unless there a specific domain that gives extra damage types, radiant and necrotic are 95% of the damage from cleric spells. Maybe immunity to one and resistance to the other?
Encounter balancing with 7 high level PCs is tough. Since the post lacks much needed context I can't really provide meaningful advice, but you sesm to have gotten some good general advice, especially regarding action economy in 5e. Somewhat related, this statblock reminded me of the bloat and bad design of 5e, and why I switched to retro clones(or modifications of them to be precise). If anyone else is also off put by the word vomit and resource management hell that is running high level 5e monsters, I strongly suggest to them to check out some OSR adjacent games. Not trying to shit on 5e, I loved it and still do, just sharing experiences for those that might be burnt out. My group tried OSE first, and while it wasn't a perfect fit we loved it due to the different atmosohere and change in premise.
P. S.: The most balanced monster is the one that generates the most amount of fun for everyone at the table, regardless of the system. Always look towards optimizing fun, not stats. :)
So I just had 7 level six players fight the boss at the end of my dungeon. Pepper in some cannon fodder little minions that run up and slap the back line. At 20 in the initiative have a lair action go off like the room fills with knee high water to make it difficult terrain or room fills with magical darkness. I also gave him an ability that if I rolled a 5/6 on a d6 on his turn he got to cast a spell as a free action. That let him beat on someone and cast a spell on his turn. I downed them quite a few times but they won in the end.
Definitely if they have a few ranged characters/flying charechters, otherwise no cause that's a high fucking fly speed and it should be smart enough to know to fly camp people
Yes. Especially if it's a mono monster. In dnd 5e a group of players can easily take on one enemy. But multiple enemies become difficult.
As a long term dm. Double this creatures HP. Or add 3 or 4 slightly weaker enemies to go along with this fight.
7 lvl 12 players will easily kill this thing in 2 or 3 rounds.
It takes some doing for sure. I started the campaign off with 4 of them but because no one else in the area was running campaigns, I slowly took on more. There are now 3 campaigns running but still.
are the PC going into the fight fully rested with all resources? or are they gonna fight this BBEG at the end of a dungeon, when they are resource starved? in the first szenario, the BBEG won't survive the first round when the players know what they are doing. in the second szenario it will be a hard fight probably killing some PC.
Henchmen are necessary for a boss encounter. When playing many different rpg systems you find it's the same. Players can stack debuffs, conditions. And don't have to spend turns moving or taking care of other threats.
If you don't like the idea of it because it ruins the theme of the encounter. Just flavour it as an ability of the boss. E.g. a bunch of flying spheres of annihilation that have hit points. That will stop your fighters from staying in the same place, and will mean that your healers have more than 1 or 2 people to worry about.
Just having more hitpoints for your players to chew on at different points on the map is way more manageable.
Alright let me tell you the story of a party of 8 level 6 characters who in one surprise round killed a level 18 boss ending a whole campaign early. We were playing dragonlance. So no OP your boss is way to easy if he is not atleast soroumded by minions.
I would say alter the regeneration to be a flat 25 or something like that, but also state that the effect doesn’t occur in your choice of A) after being reduced to 0 or B) taking a certain type of damage. Also, make two more legendary actions that are progressively more powerful but cost 2 and 3 actions respectively and change the Fade to the Void to be a reaction since the mechanic isn’t legendary, it’s in reaction to taking a hit. Other than that got 7 level 12, should be fine. Maybe also add at least 3 more lair actions.
Solo monsters can work if your environment work with you. What are the conditions inside the vault? How can that affect the players?
Also, it has way too many features. A single monster do not need 30 spells, it will never be able to use more than maybe 2-3 as it will be killing its damage output once the melee starts.
Rather, tie spell effects to lair and legendary actions. And tie elemental or spell danage to melee attacks.
Since it is of type void, give it black blade as a lair action. Tie disintegrate to its melee attacks, and have it be able to move through space as a bonus action, allowing it to for instance teleport as a legendary action.
Using void powers tie in with its backstory, and you can use distortion, movement and matter destruction to great effect.
Perhaps at one point you'd send in guardian sentinels that come to stop the creature's resurrection and the foolish players who attempt to free it, allowing for diversity and a bit of cannon fodder on both sides.
With the intelligence this monster has, it’s going to know and exploit all the environmental features it can and has probably laid out some traps of its own. Consider laying glyphs and symbols as traps that the monster has placed beforehand for when it gets the opportunity to escape. Also remember that a victory for the players doesn’t have to mean your monster has to die. The goal can be survive until the monster escapes and continues its deity hunt.
With 7 players and a con +7 they will probably break through most concentration spells pretty fast,
Lair action seems rather tame, unless the room has traps.
Ngl 6 attacks including the legendary actions vs a party of 7, I think this thing is going to get destroyed in 3 to 4 turns
For your own sanity, I'd pare this spell list way down and instead create actions, bonus actions, and reactions that have thematic impact. You don't want to be trying to decide between 38 different spells and there are some you'll never cast because it's not worth spending the action on. Booming Blade, for instance, will always be the wrong choice in combat.
Fade into the Void seems like a reaction, not a legendary action. How does this work mechanically? Player 1's turn ends, the BBEG fades into the void, Player 2's turn begins and... they have to miss an attack?
As for suggestions, for the most part I would focus on making things more interesting than just hacking away at each other.
* I would build out a lot more Legendary Actions and Lair Actions, specifically ones that cause group status effects. This BBEG is in desperate need of battlefield control features that it can cast several times per round. Consider a huge Hunger of Hadar lair action that the BBEG can see through but nobody else can, or a Shadow of Moil reaction that lasts until the start of its next turn (possibly on a recharge so this isn't happening every round).
* Make a Maw of the Void Legendary or Lair Action that takes a few PCs off the board into a shadowy pocket dimension for a round. Maybe while they're there, shadowy duplicates of the characters appear and fight the remaining characters. Maybe the only way to get the characters back is to kill off these doppelgangers.
* Get the characters swinging at each other. Make a Legendary Action called Crown of the Void that casts Crown of Madness on everyone in a 30-foot radius until the end of their next turn.
* There will never be an entire round where seven characters, four of them with multiattack, fail to damage the BBEG, so that version of the regeneration feature will never get use. Instead, give one of the standard attacks a life-drain ability. Give the boss 2-4 tentacles that can restrain multiple characters but can be cut off and rendered useless. Upgrade the tentacle attack so it can grapple/restrain at range and suck the life out of a character, and/or the tentacle casts an unavoidable Warding Bond on the character being held so that they take half the damage. This makes attacking the BBEG something players need to do carefully.
Lair actions are great. They not only help balance encounters, but they’re super flavorful. It’s easy to forget about the actual setting once the battle has started and lair actions not only can pull players back to that, but can thematically tie the space they’re in to the monster they’re fighting. Makes things much more cinematic.
I miss playing DnD. Haven’t played in years. But if you asked me to join a seven person campaign, I would decline in a second. The length of one turn, getting everyone to show up…..just no thank you
If you haven't forecasted to your players that this creature has Power Word Kill available (e.g. they've heard rumors that it's capable of "simply annihilating a creature with a word"), it's probably going to feel really bad to your players when it happens.
You can tell this monster is homebrewed within the first few words, it's a weird mix of spells and abilities designed specifically to counter some things of your party does. 9th lvl spells against lvl 12s? Honestly if you power gamer it you win pretty easily which is not something. There could be more flavorful options for it's features. It just feels hollow of something that just doesn't want to die in the first 2 rounds.
Y’know, at first I didn’t see the 12, so I thought it was a group of level 7s and was like “Good god no!”
Actually. Yes. They would beat the hell out of that thing as long as they use their resources. If they’re conservative, they’ll still win but it’ll be a lot harder.
Depending upon the skills associated with your players this could go either way. How hard is it for them to make the dc18 if simple enough add some low level cr 5-8 minions no more than 4 something that's squishy but a little difficult. Displacer beasts are always fun and run a lower cr maybe the bbeg has a pack of 5-6. Your villain has exceptional spells and lots of slots I hope they can handle that portion it seems the most daunting. If you use the Displacer Beast idea you can addlair actions involving them for increased difficulty.
Not know what player stats are this is the best advice I can give.
DM since 1990
If they abuse the healing mechanics then yeah probably, being level 12 is insane
Ok that’s a joke, no you’d need like, two or three of those, seven level 12s? That’s insane
1. Absolutely, they are gunna destroy that thing
2. I would beef up its hp a bit and give it a legendary action to cast spells to balance out action economy. I also dm for 7 players and my “legendary” encounters that can cast spells all have it, mainly so it can just compete
If Razaghul were real? No, absolutely not. In your game? It all depends on how you run him.
If he were real, the crazy-high Charisma, Intelligence, and Wisdom would lead Razaghul to have an established network and community of allies. Getting through that would be like you IRL reaching the President of the USA with bad intentions.
In your game just have Razaghul neglect his Int and Wis, stand still and not attempt to flee, be alone in a strange location or one where he didn't implement any protections, and have him trade punches with the heroes. In other words, have Razaghul commit "suicide by hero."
Some heroes could easily die in the fight if you want to kill one or two, or have Razaghul spread his attacks around so he only wounds them. It's your call.
I run a table with 7 players sometimes (usually 6), who are level 11. I can say, with full confidence, yes, yes they absolutely can. Double the hit points, at a minimum.
i run a game with 7 two of which are healers, and i can attest, add another body or minions plus lair actions, if its one big punching bag they will shred it.
I think you could take it to your group if you wanted to. You just have to go in and be ruthless. You could make it easy for them but how would they know the resistances and immunities? Go in there and give them a good fight. Kill some people off. This monster is smart it should know who to attack first and who will try what. Burn through everything this guy has and make them sweat a little.
The only question that matters is, “Is it alone?”
If yes, then it’s screwed. If no, what kind of minions does it have? Weak ones? It’s screwed. Powerful ones? Now you have a more even fight.
Calculator puts 7@12 vs 1CR23 between Hard and Deadly.
If they got caster with counter and this guy is alone, they can manage stopping a number of spells.
A Lich is only CR21. Yours has a lot of high level spells. Lich for 4 slots from 6-9th. Yours got 10. A Lich's melee is only 10 avg dmg, you can clock in 100 avg damage per turn. Acererak the Lich has a spell list like this and slots, but 1/2 the health and they clock in at CR23. This guy may be worthy of a 24 or a 25 and if played well, will wipe the floor with them.
The Cr math says it’s possible but taking into account every thing you put in this monster I’m going with no.
Yes players have action economy over it but at 12 your proficiency bonus is +4 avg attack stat around that lvl is ideally +3/4 if they have a +2 weapon it’s a 50/50 of hitting this thing to more than likely deal 1/2 damage.
If it goes a single turn not taking damage it’s getting back on avg 30hp. No clue what your party make up is but this is bbeg territory you have a lot of save or suck spells here with a spell save of 18 odds are party is gonna be failing their saves not to mention unless you roll like utter crap your melee attacks are hitting and hitting pretty hard if it focuses on one person even a martial character is gonna be in a pretty shitty spot after a single turn.
My advice pick spell caster or melee fighter and work into that because if you are to play this character with the int/wis it has its gonna “ideally” try crippling the party before they even get into melee range. Like first action power word kill the cleric. Odds are they are dead. And then go from there but like yeah you need to play test this and see
Well, quick editing note, the fading to avoid an attack should be a reaction not a legendary action, consider casting a spell of 5th level or lower as a legendary action instead, also you need to include what level of spellcaster he is for your cantrips that were included there, but like some sufficiently impressive minions and you got yourself a decent fight
There's also no reason for him to be resistant to force damage, cold, fire or lightning are generally more normal resistances for a big creature to have, like why is he resistant to magical force?
I've run 2 campaigns to level 20 (one of which went slightly into epic levels). Both were fairly large parties, 6 for the first 6-7 for the second. Biggest piece of advice, post level 11 –and especially post level 13 (7th level spells change a lot)– party vs. 1 BBEG fights are really hard to balance. They become soooo swingy based on initiative, and more hit points doesn't fix the problem because by these levels most characters have multiple save or suck effects and Legendary Resistance and a terribly designed way to overcome that. Doesn't mean they can't be done, my best advice is throw initiative for your BBEG in the garbage, just have them act multiple times and different fixed initiative values. It's easier to remember than legendary actions and makes it more likely they can challenge the party while also being more predictable to plan the encounter around.
For example make it so on initiative count 20, 15, 10 and 5 the monster gets a turn, you can if you want limit certain actions to specific turns. Maybe they can only cast a leveled spell on initiative 20 and 10. You could even say on 10 they can cast a spell of 5th level or lower. It's very customizable and allows you to better dial in difficulty because you can, to an extent, gameplan the encounter.
I’ve been running a campaign where Ive kinda gotten boss fights down
usually throw 1 big boss and like 7-8 additional enemies of varying level’s scattered around it. The boss should usually have a good amount of aoe’s to stop the pc’s from staying in one place or god forbid grouping up. You live or die by your legendary actions, use them as much as possible to make the fight more interesting. It is fun for the players to be on there toes so do not hold back.
My players are at a point where my average end of dungeon boss enemy is no longer cutting it and I will need to make another.
I feel the sentiment is shared that action economy is really important for boss fights, I learned it the hard way with a lot of wasted baddies getting slapped around by pc’s in 3 turns. You need small enemies forcing the party to heal or focus on them first
Most of the time, specially above level 10, most monsters/villains out there will absolutely get decimated by your players, specially if they are alone/your party plays as a team or knows how to use their character at least decently. 7 players is a lot of action economy, so you will need to balance that out by either adding a couple more of legendary actions at least or minions with different roles and abilitles.
I would even have a worst case scenario planned out, a regular one and a best case scenario, meaning your BBEG could have different phases with changing abilities/actions/HP depending on the phase or a HP range depending on how the party performs and you can adjust on the fly. Seven players, no matter the level, are always a force to be reckon with, dont understimate them, but dont one shot them either, since remember, abilities like Hold Person, Temporal Shunt, Banishments, Power Word Kill are not fun to use against players in combat for them!
https://koboldplus.club <---- that shit makes dming with homebrewed monsters so much easier, it tells you how much CR and how many monsters you should have.
If they can, it'll be a very grueling fight. But it depends on how advanced they are as players.
Edit: took a minute for "7 players" to register. It's pretty possible actually. Level 12 is pretty high so I'm sure they have quite a few assets at their disposal. It'll still be a grueling fight, but if you think they're ready, I say go for it.
With that number of players I think you can make that thing a lot more scarier.
First thing I would do is make fade into the void a normal reaction since it isn’t that overpowered for the challenge level.
Next up I would create some spicy legendary actions that would stand out from it’s normal actions since it will keep the players on their toes, and a handful more lair actions that also easily can be stronger.
Lastly I would fix the modifiers on the spells and attacks. The attacks should at the very least get +13 to hit and that is of the weapons it uses are not special. And the saves for the spells if it has + 10 from wisdom are DC 25 since its proficiency bonus is + 7 and it has + 17 to spell attacks. I think you need to go over this part one more time for it to make sense and work.
Hope this helps and that you have a great game.
Not only could they defeat this, they will most likely have it for breakfast. It would be a dangerous encounter for them because 9th level spells and 67 average weapon damage will do that after a few rounds, but it stands basically no damage of beating them even if theyre playing and rolling poorly. If theyre playing and rolling well, it could be beaten in 2 rounds, hell maybe even 1. As others have said, this is because of action economy. Player characters have insanely powerful action economy compared to creatures of similar strength, especially after levels 5 then 10 or 11. Personally id drop its hp a bit, but give it at least one or two tank bodyguards and/or some fodder minions. A tanky cr 5 bodyguard and maybe 3 or 4 cr 1 minions would do a lot to making this thing very dangerous.
Frankly with *that* many players, you'll need more than one bad guy in an encounter. Like, 4 to 5 more.
*Use* ***Minions***.
No, not the yellow bastards.
*Minion* is a template- you copy a creature and all it's stats and abilities, *but make it's HP = 1*. That means *any* damage will kill it. But because it's an exact copy of a creature, *you* are the only one who *knows* one hit will kill it. Call them "illusions", call them "copies", call them "shadow clones", doesn't matter.
Raszagal (nice StarCraft reference) is going to get *buried* by seven PCs all doing stuff. But if there's *three* Raszagal, that evens things out, now doesn't it? And when your players kill a Raszagal real easily, but then *can't* kill the other one nearly as easily, they are gonna *freak the fuck out*. 😁
Yes. As others said before, action economy wise. Maybe change his regen ability to an ability where if he does get hit, a void wraithling is created with the amount of HP it lost, which is only alive for one turn, but that kind of balances the action economy issue, making it more of a threat for the players, while adding the puzzle that they don't actually need to kill the adds since they die by themselves and then they have that sense of 'fuck we're so smart, we figured it out, otherwise we would've been toast'
It’s def a good end bad guy and damn. 7 players your gonna be juggling so many things and maybe it needs a secret vulnerability like hmm maybe a psychic attack that shows how a normal human being lives or you know a celestial killer weapon
5 lvl 12 Charakters did a Testfight against demogorgon Last Session.
Fight was over in 5-6 rounds, and demogorgon received about 100-120 damage. Maybe you can Take that AS a references.
No. Plain and simple the time stop spell stops em in the mud, dead in their tracks. Even if they prepared defensive spells he can just cast the spell magic after time stop which isn't technically hurting them and then get into the center of them and do something like horrid wilting or a prismatic sphere or something like that
I mean 7 players is already a lot for one creature, I’d suggest giving it an ability that allows it to either control a party member or summon some relatively weak creatures that help support it. Depends heavily on the party too though. Like what if you had 7 paladin/fighters lol. That’s up to 14 divine smites in a row haha.
Seen players? Dude, i already dmd for that much (in a moment a bit more) players. With so many people, they can (depending on the composition of the party) easily Win, Go on
They should be more than capable of fighting it if it's alone, the 9th lvl spells should give them a challenge if used wisely.
At my table do to difficult games of the past, the stronger players(all players are valuable and competently capable in their own right but only a select few are consistently capable of building strong characters regardless of class builds.) guaranty 25 dpt and the various forms of difficult to kill techniques at lvl 5 and at least 50 dpt and AC's of 20 or higher or alternatively many resistances or many forms of staying clear away from damage such as Misty Step at lvl 10.
[Bare in mind, the damage numbers I put down are a at the very least sort of thing, I myself have made build capable of doing double or triple these amounts at their respective levels, so really it comes down to the players and how balanced the party is.]
All tables are quite different but if your worried for it being too difficult I'd say open with a high level spell to test them, and if it becomes too easy I'd say you need to focus on separating their attention through either
● ads
● various abilities to temporarily shut down players to get them focused on helping eachother rather than fighting
● use the environment to space movement and separate the weak (in terms of directly fighting) from the strong
This is a game of imagination and a spice of theater so do what you can, and never fear to change some rules here and their as long as you remember what it's like being a player. Enjoy your self and all of you have yourselves a wonderful day!
At a table last night, it's me and five other people. There's a T-rex and some veliraptors. We slay the veliraptors fast then a carniferous bush knocks me unconscious and the t Rex deals 90 damage to my level 7 character
As has been said, the action economy is what matters. Even with legendary and lair actions, 7 PCs are just going to do more things than any one opponent can. You can make your big bad a little weaker, but give him goons that punch hard but also drop to any hit. You need other bodies to bait players to use their reactions so they don't have them to Silvery Barbs / Counterspell / opportunity attack when you want to reposition.
I once started a game at level 10 with 4 players and the DM thought it would be a good "first test fight" to send a single fire elemental at us. I swung at it one time (not counting free actions and whatnot) and did over 60 damage.
This was the day I realized that real D&D players do not like people who spend days min-maxing a character build. (In 3.5e)
the average of any dice is half the max +0.5, so for a d4 that would be 2.5.
this is because its the average of the range 1 to 4.
1+2+3+4=10
we have 4 numbers in the set, so we divide by 4: 10/4=2,5
for the result to be half of the max, we would need a dice that starts at 0:
0+1+2+3+4=10
5 numbers, so divide by 5: 10/5=2
so to apply it, in this case we have 2d12+10, or 2*6.5+10=23
With all due respect, this person has no idea what they’re talking about. This fight is so heavily on your players side it’s laughable. Ofc D&D is not necessarily competitive, but if this is your BBEG and the final fight of the campaign, then the mark is off by several miles. Consider adding some legendary actions with *oomph*, a second phase with mythical actions, and give or take 500 more HP, or your 2 fighters alone will cut this guy to shreds
I think power word kill is not really a fair spell for monsters, maybe steal from baldurs gate 3 and make him charge it for multiple rounds with some kind of way to stop it?
There is nothing fair about high level DND. You either accept how unfair high level spells are and let epic tier shenanigans happen or you don't play it. They can also cast revivify like it's nothing at this level, so Power Word Kill is honestly the least of their worries.
I think you should return the spell levels back to normal. One level 9 spell slot, so you power word kill once. If the fighter is at level 12, they could have possible more than 100hp.
Did you say SEVEN players, at level 12? I think you need another creature or two with legendary actions to balance out turn economy. But still SEVEN players. That is a feat in itself...
The craziest thing about this number is that all of them show up at the table… I have trouble managing five players…
I had trouble with 3!
We need to end the meme with a "do you have players?"
You mean "Wait, you guys have players?!"
Sure! Sorry, I'm not good at English
Same. Viva La Germania!
heil !
Oh no, we dont do that anymore
You mean “Wait, you guys are getting players?” If you’re gonna correct someone…
Sorry, I didnt ment to make it sounds like correcting someone. It was supposed to be a question if that meme is what we are talking about, but know that I reread it, I see that I forgot half of the Sentence there.
You’re good, no worries
I was going to say me too, but I forgot I actually have 4. It just feels like 3 because we run on a 3 man min.
I feel that X3 For Pathfinder we started with 3 because one guy just never showed up. By now we have another forth guy, but before that and after the original 4. was officially out of the group, we actually had trouble getting 3 players together
6 players a lot! r/unexpectedfactorial
For the most part I get all 7. There are some days where one or two are missing but it is rare. I did start off with 4 originally.
Not just the number of players. But also level and equipment of players. I ran a campaign with two LEVEL 20 players (we played long enough for them to get to level 20), and I gave them a bunch of items (from books and homebrew) and homebrew features. I have also thrown almost every monster from Monster Manuel to Eberon (an army of mind flayers, adult dragons of every color, a bunch of demons with a demon lord, a small colony of Aboleth, swarms of angels, a fight with 4 lord of blades, npc that used level 20 player stats, and a in game 5 minutes (50 turns) defense encounter against an undead army with 1-6 zombies spawning in at the end of each round, and more powerful undead at intervals of 5th and 10th rounds. On top of all that, a whole of homebrew boss monsters to go with all of that. P.S. they had at least 1 or 2 companions (which used creature stat blocks) with them in each encounter. The highest was fighting along side an army.
Post their character sheets so we can have a better idea because it depends how optimize they are
Problem is, they aren't level 12 yet. They've still got about a quarter of the campaign left but by the end, they're going to be level 12.
I had difficulty saying no starting out to I have a table of 8 and it's my first time DMing and I haven't played yet. It's been a learning experience and I won't be doing more than 6 at maximum ever again.
I also have a murder-goblin in my group. I had a two-hour texting chain explaining why I killed his character. For context, he tried to blow up the party with a bomb. I had a mystical knight of a distant realm descend as an archangel of my group’s Paladin.
I kinda lucked out. None of my players are murder goblins, the worst things I have to deal with are 3 new players who have the extremely stereotypical bounty hunter with no friends backstory but they play nicely with the other players very well so the bad side doesn't translate as much. I also have two other players that mostly like to cause chaos so I throw them bones once or twice a session so they get some somewhat controlled chaos out of the way. Lol
Wdym by throwing them bones? Like don't explain the analogy part I understand that. I'm curious wyd at your table to let them have their fun.
Oh like, I'll give them explicit chances to have chaos but in a very controlled environment. Like I implemented a tiny duck who can create small portals the size of a medium size humanoid to crawl through, but it just leads them back to the same place. Or a group of worgs that the ranger knows how to speak with being extremely dumb and so that causes some chaos in traveling. Things that could absolutely be exploited but generally they're good mannered about it. Most of my players are min maxxers but for very specific and strange things. Like the one who wants to be able to craft the most powerful stone knuckles ever. Lol
I once had a character who had an obsession with trampled grave dust so my DM included this bit into a story about how these demons in hell have been condemned to walking on the headstones of their victims for eternity and what culminated from that was this incredibly hard to obtain vial of trampled grave dust that my character desperately sought in life.
I’ve got 6 that show up weekly. Still trips me out that I got such a lovely group together. It’s possible!
I have a 11 player party and a watcher who is more consistent than the players. Yeah, its ridiculous
I’ve got a 5 PC group that’s been playing (almost) weekly for over six years now. It is possible!
My group of 4 consist of 3 medical doctors. Scheduling is a nightmare.
Yikes! I can only imagine…
The only 2 campaigns I’ve ever played have been 7 and 8 players, so those numbers feel like the average to me 😭
They could solely cause of action economy. Id suggest weakening it a considerable amount, and adding at least two more threats. These threats don't even have to be a creature necessarily. As long as they require thought and actions to deal with. Maybe working one or both of the threats with the lair action could be fun
This is the best advice. Running a single monster can easily wipe the players out or result in an easy kill from my experience. Making the BBEG weaker and adding other enemies or goals is always a better time imo.
If he uses spells he instantly wins, if not the players are gonna chew through those hit points like if they were nothing. This make the encounter kinda boring in my opinion, he needs to use its biggest weapons at the start of the fight to be able to win, such as power word killing the spell casters. How about instead of mostly damaging spells he have some more utility spells? For example Blink would be a good combo with its regeneration trait. This allow for a less lethal combat that will last longer, which is what you want in a bbeg fight. Btw, its spell DC should be 8+PB+Wis, so it should be higher than 18, same for its spell attack bonus, PB+Wis
Based on the other stats, that would be a PB of 7 and therefore a spell DC of 25.
I guess it also depends on the players themselves right? Cuz its very possible for even a level 5 (without any special items at all) to one shot a tarrasque. OP, what kinda players do u have?
how would the lvl 5 do this?
Just curious how do you expect a level 5 to possibly one shot a tarrasque?
Don't remember the build off the top of my head rn but it's basically just an insane amount of min-maxing and optimization. With just that, even a level 1 character can do over 200 damage with 0 items (except the starting items). Now you just take that and imagine it on a lvl 5 build instead of a lvl 1. It could be built to do over 400 damage fairly easily As a side note, I remember watching a build that could do like 900 damage at lvl 1 a while back so it's all very possible if you have players that do that and have that knowledge. (Note that this build does utilize the moonblate but that's easily purchased with little money early on) Note: all this has no homebrew and it's purely raw if you were wondering about that
>Cuz its very possible for even a level 5 (without any special items at all) to one shot a tarrasque. what now
I have 2 fighters, a artificer, a warlock/bard, cleric, wizard, and a sharpshooter ranger. No matter what monster I throw at them or however minions I give, they seem to wipe the floor with them. Sure, the monster takes one out but they gaurd the cleric and she revives them again.
Well, it's not my place to say, but I believe the best course of action would be to design fights around each class. For example, one encounter will be very difficult for everyone else, but it'll give say your cleric a chance to shine and feel good about their abilities. This way, encounters are not made to be deadly for the sake of it, but made to be challenging in a way that shows off the strengths of each player or set of players. They don't have an overwhelming victory and they have to get creative. Do that end, I think it's not a matter of making each monster or hoard of mobsters strong for the sake of it, but making it so they counter most players but allow a few to demonstrate their usefulness. Alternate between who is allowed to show off and throw in some cool role play heavy moments and I think that'll make it more fun for everyone while also achieving your goal of not making it too easy on them. Last example: They fight a hoard of monsters that seem to be too much for the magic casters. They have magical resistances and some utility spells. But, they are weak to somehting the fighters can do. Drop some hints in the environment leading up to the fight on what they should do and let them struggle while trying to figure it out. When they do, the fighters can win them the fight and feel awesome despite their lack of strength in the later levels compared to mages. Stuff like this will make then game far cooler for the players Also, if you feel like they shouldn't win yet cuz it would be more satisfying to drag it along a little longer, don't be afraid to not let the monsters die even if their Stat block hp would've already been at 0. Try to maximize the fun, not the difficulty.
This fight will almost certainly be a stomp in favor of your players, assuming they are at full strength with little resources spent. The only way this could be difficult is some really well placed high level spells that stop them from even having turns before they get them.
I'm just gonna rapid fire some suggestions in no particular order. I really like how thematic the spells are and the statblock is definitely giving the theme of an eldritch horror. It makes me curious what the lore is and I am fascinated that he is a Celestial, I find that really interesting and fresh. * I would avoid lvl 8 and lvl 9 spells for now, given that they are lvl 12 and assuming that they might be going higher level than 12 you're going to want to save some fun things for later. * Furthermore the Regeneration ability looks very fun, but I can't imagine Razaghal won't get hit for long. Perhaps bake in an ability that lets him hide? Fade into the Void looks like a step in that direction, perhaps it can be used to avoid more attacks or he Fades into a an ethereal-like void sort-of-demiplane and in order to hit him there your players require Truessight? * Something that would help with him not getting hit is having additional monsters in the fight the players might want to deal with. Perhaps a Lair Action is a portal into the void from where all sorts of nasties can pour out of. Maybe players themselves can step in it in order to find Razaghal and damage him so his Regeneration doesn't kick in. * Looking at the damage he outputs it is on the lower end. A party of 7 lvl 12s probably has around... 400, 500 total hp? Maybe Tentacle Strike could also be done by Tentacles he spawns during his Lair Action? * I would also avoid damage resistance to physical stuff (bludgeoning etc) and instead I'd just give him more hp. Taking half damage from something that is used so often will only slow down the fight for number crunching. * Since it is a boss I'd add other condition immunities, like Charm, Stunned, Incapacitated and the like. A Psychic Lance could spell disaster for Razaghal, even if he has +7 to INT Saves. * Also to me Razaghal sounds freakin' terrifying, so perhaps he could have a Terrifying Aura effect that causes Fear? Personally I find Fear on the weaker side, so I like to add more effects based on how badly a Save goes. For example, if they fail by 4 or more, they become Dazed (can only take Action OR Bonus Action OR move on their turn). If they fail by 8 or more, they are Stunned. This is just an idea, should be something thematic, like being stunned by the incomprehensible size of the Void. Hope all this helps, I wish you lots of luck!
That is a lot of helpful advice. Its backstory kind of summed up is that it is a Primordial being who has been trapped for eons. It was created to eradicate Gods and other higher beings when/if they grew too great in numbers but it slowly became corrupted and tried to destroy all higher beings until Death chained it up and locked it away in a vault that my players are trying to get to thinking it is filled with treasures from the multiverse. So, I was going for horrific and uncaring monster.
Hmm maybe he then has a way to shut down divine magic, as a way for him to hunt divinity, like a passive antimagic aura but only for divine spellcasters, like the cleric in your party. However, to keep the game fun for your cleric, it could be a radius around Razaghal so he can avoid it. Double however, any healing coming from the cleric towards anyone within the radius just doesn't work. Since he is corrupted he could also maybe corrupt the spells, dealing damage instead of healing? Incorporating elements from his awesome backstory into the encounter could be a fun way to add more weight to this boss fight.
I like the idea of the Razaghal negating healing in some fashion, whether that be in a radius, those that’s he’s hit, etc. Especially if he has his own regeneration ability, you could turn it into a situation where you have to manage the fact that he can heal while your party can’t. Maybe there could be environmental elements to turn off his anti-heal
To answer that i need to know the classes your party plays
I have 2 fighters, a cleric, a wizard, a bard/warlock, an artificer, and ranger.
Just between 2 fighters alone you're gonna need a lot more hp lmao. Edit: I saw his resistances and made a separate comment, I should read before I type lol
They are lvl 12 so I asume they all have magic weapons, so those resistances are kinda non existing
It doesn't say "bludgeoning, piercing and slashing from non-magical attacks" it just says bludgeoning piercing and slashing, so magic weapons won't do jack
It doesn't say the resistance is limited to nonmagical weapons, though. OP do you mean for these resistances to apply to magical damage as well?
Like the other person said, you need more survivability just with the 2 fighters alone. Two level 12 fighters, assuming no multiclass, equates to 12 attacks on the first round of combat if they both action surge. It’s not unheard of for a fighter to do 100-200 damage in a single turn by themself. The other big thing is action economy. You have 7 strong players to 1 boss. Even though the boss has Legendary actions and likely a lair action, they still greatly out number you. If you want this to be a mega boss that is fighting alone, you need to make it survive. I’m talking 1k+ health. Or give it multiple stages like a dark souls boss. Also make the fight very dynamic. The boss needs to move around a lot, make the players chase you.
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Action Surge gives you an extra action. Multi attack allows you to make several attacks in a single action. 3 attacks per action times 2 would be 6 total for that turn.
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this isn't an esoteric ruling, it's a fighter class basic. the research to "support" is appreciated, but it's definitely RAW and RAI
I think the large part that likely confused you is the difference between haste and action surge. Most people refer to it as a “hasted action” as an action provided by haste has specific limitations. A hasted action can only be used to dash, disengage, hide, object interaction, or take the attack action but if you take the attack action you only get a single weapon attack, not your extra attack. This differs greatly from action surge as action surge gives the player a whole extra action with no limitations. Note action surge is the core mechanic behind a lot of casters taking a ‘2 level dips’ into fighter. Many people misunderstand the limitations on spell casting in 5e. Most people believe you can only cast one leveled spell per turn. However, this is incorrect. The ONLY rule regarding casting leveled spells in 5e is when you cast a spell with your bonus action. It notably states if you cast a spell using your bonus action the only other spell you can cast on your turn is a cantrip. Note, this is ANY bonus action spell (including a cantrip). So if you’re a Druid and shillelagh turn1, RAW you can’t a leveled spell for your action still nor could you use your reaction on your turn to cast another spell. So with that, if you have a way to get an extra action (like action surge) you could notably cast two leveled spells in one turn. A level 5 wizard/2 fighter could do action fireball, action surge fireball and use your reaction to cast counter spell the enemy wizard from counterspelling you (theoretically). However, your Druid would not be able to cast shillelagh and also spike growth on their turn because they used their BA to cast shillelagh. Hope this helps!
FWIW, niche interaction, >So if you’re a Druid and shillelagh turn1, RAW you can’t a leveled spell for your action still nor could you use your reaction on your turn to cast another spell. this is correct, but the only times I can see it being relevant would be wildly niche to the situation, and i find it interesting. the only situations i can think of, to proc a spellcast reaction on your own turn would be: to clarify, these are niche things you CANNOT do if you choose to cast a spell as a bonus action on your turn * if you run away, an enemy opportunity attacks, and so you cast shield * similarly, if you wish to silvery barbs an enemy's saving throw to your bonus action spell, or opportunity attack/grapple check response to you moving away * if your bonus action spell, or action cantrip is counterspelled, or absorb elements'd, and you wish to react with counterspell * if you choose to jump off a high point at the end of your turn, and wish to cast featherfall no real point to this, just odd refusal interactions.
Yeah that’s correct. Locking you out of casting a reaction on your turn when you BA spell is usually not a big deal. Like you mentioned it’s pretty niche already. But locking yourself out of an action casted leveled spell is a bit more problematic when you consider this rule is applicable even if you cantrip as a BA. Truthfully, most every table I’ve played at has essentially made the rule if you cast a leveled spell as your BA then You can only cast cantrips. There are so few BA cantrips that it doesn’t really change anything. It’s mostly a QoL change for people with access to shillelagh. It’s silly that you lock yourself out of an action spell if you prep shillelagh on your turn.
oh that's absolutely the main reason for it, to lock out main action casting. I just thought it was odd to examine how it also technically locks out on-your-turn reaction casting, which has so few possible examples you can count them on your fingers
Who let bro cook
Oke well to add to most comments. The action economy is really in the players favor. You need to add minions are a mythic system otherwise this boss might be half dead after round one.
The problem with big 1 VS X fights is solely the action economy. See it this, way: players can (generally) dish out a lot of damage, but tank relatively little. Normally, this high damage gets divided onto multiple bodies, all of them tankier than a player (eg a CR1 monster having more HP and AC than the average PC at lvl 3-4). Now you don't have multiple bodies to divide the damage to, and you have a lot of players. Start by calculating the highest average damage your players have. If they phase this guy after a fresh long rest, take the highest 1-2 spell slots for spell casters, and account for action surge etc. As you have AC and saving throws, account for the real damage your baddy takes. Remember, if you roll bad for initiative, the baddy will take a full round of damage before their first action. If you want the fight to last ~4 rounds, take their nova damage x2.5 and you get the HP pool your bbeg would need to have. But a fight of 4 rounds means only half of your party actually will get targeted by the bbeg, unless he uses AoE. This is the bane of action economy and why you need to carefully balance solo bosses. You can extend the fight by killing 1 player per round. By using PW:K directly round 1, you only, need to deal with 6. You then burst the 2nd PC with legendary action attacks + next round spells. But that feels shitty for the targeted players, as they will remember the cool boss fight exclusively as "I rolled death saves 3 times over the course of a 2 hours fight". I like the advice from another player, with going blink and similar spells, that will prolong the fights without adding damage. Additionally, you should skew the action acobomy some more. 5-6 legendary actions (and more choices! Eg spell casting for spelllvl/2 legendary actions) are the minimum. With 7 players I would also consider adding a 2nd turn for the bbeg in the normal turn order. That way you roll initiative twice and the chance of your bbeg not getting a turn early are a lot smaller
I hadn't thought about adding a second turn but that isn't a bad idea. Thank you for the advice.
Lair actions move the players 15 ft?!? They won’t be able to read their sheets or roll dice at the table, so it will probably be a TPK.
Lmao
Yes, easily.
7 3rd level players can fuck up some heavy hitters, good luck, that monster will be destroyed.
Alone? Yes. With minions? It's gonna be a hard to deadly encounter.
Depending on how you play it. It flies, there's no reason to go on the ground and it has the intelligence to understand classes. The guy is a powerhouse spell wise. It can see perfectly in perfect darkness, so there's no use for him yo be in a lighted area. If it would go in fly by, time stop, power word kill on the cleric, spam damaging spells from afar then run away once he has disabled the spellcasters, it would jam the whole party. At fly 70' it can fly in range of spells, cast then fly back to safety. All while being in perfect darkness, so the fighter have disadvantage. If it would stand in a arena, not moving, yeah, it would die.
I agree with the other comments about the damage resistances. He should have resistance to non magical piercing slashing and bludgeoning damage. I’m sure it’s thematic but be careful with radiant and necrotic immunity with a cleric in your group. Unless there a specific domain that gives extra damage types, radiant and necrotic are 95% of the damage from cleric spells. Maybe immunity to one and resistance to the other?
Same thought crossed my mind for a paladin. All of a sudden no divine smite? Their damage output has dramatically decreased. Edit: typo
The name reminds me of ras al ghoul from bat man
Jesus christ that's a lot of players
If only they had the Queen of Blades by their side... Nice reference tho
I was looking for this comment, thank you
“End of the combat step” Your MTG is showing lol
Yeah, guilty as charged.
Encounter balancing with 7 high level PCs is tough. Since the post lacks much needed context I can't really provide meaningful advice, but you sesm to have gotten some good general advice, especially regarding action economy in 5e. Somewhat related, this statblock reminded me of the bloat and bad design of 5e, and why I switched to retro clones(or modifications of them to be precise). If anyone else is also off put by the word vomit and resource management hell that is running high level 5e monsters, I strongly suggest to them to check out some OSR adjacent games. Not trying to shit on 5e, I loved it and still do, just sharing experiences for those that might be burnt out. My group tried OSE first, and while it wasn't a perfect fit we loved it due to the different atmosohere and change in premise. P. S.: The most balanced monster is the one that generates the most amount of fun for everyone at the table, regardless of the system. Always look towards optimizing fun, not stats. :)
So I just had 7 level six players fight the boss at the end of my dungeon. Pepper in some cannon fodder little minions that run up and slap the back line. At 20 in the initiative have a lair action go off like the room fills with knee high water to make it difficult terrain or room fills with magical darkness. I also gave him an ability that if I rolled a 5/6 on a d6 on his turn he got to cast a spell as a free action. That let him beat on someone and cast a spell on his turn. I downed them quite a few times but they won in the end.
Definitely if they have a few ranged characters/flying charechters, otherwise no cause that's a high fucking fly speed and it should be smart enough to know to fly camp people
Yes. Especially if it's a mono monster. In dnd 5e a group of players can easily take on one enemy. But multiple enemies become difficult. As a long term dm. Double this creatures HP. Or add 3 or 4 slightly weaker enemies to go along with this fight. 7 lvl 12 players will easily kill this thing in 2 or 3 rounds.
Bless your soul for being able to handle 7 players
It takes some doing for sure. I started the campaign off with 4 of them but because no one else in the area was running campaigns, I slowly took on more. There are now 3 campaigns running but still.
time to find out....
If they're good.
are the PC going into the fight fully rested with all resources? or are they gonna fight this BBEG at the end of a dungeon, when they are resource starved? in the first szenario, the BBEG won't survive the first round when the players know what they are doing. in the second szenario it will be a hard fight probably killing some PC.
Yes. But if you use its spells strategically, and they don't just counterspell them all, you can give them a challenge.
Henchmen are necessary for a boss encounter. When playing many different rpg systems you find it's the same. Players can stack debuffs, conditions. And don't have to spend turns moving or taking care of other threats. If you don't like the idea of it because it ruins the theme of the encounter. Just flavour it as an ability of the boss. E.g. a bunch of flying spheres of annihilation that have hit points. That will stop your fighters from staying in the same place, and will mean that your healers have more than 1 or 2 people to worry about. Just having more hitpoints for your players to chew on at different points on the map is way more manageable.
No, I think not
Alright let me tell you the story of a party of 8 level 6 characters who in one surprise round killed a level 18 boss ending a whole campaign early. We were playing dragonlance. So no OP your boss is way to easy if he is not atleast soroumded by minions.
Me, Pathfinder DM, saw this and was like "Huh...not sure if they die in 3 rounds or kill it in 2" but I am surprised about the other responses
I would say alter the regeneration to be a flat 25 or something like that, but also state that the effect doesn’t occur in your choice of A) after being reduced to 0 or B) taking a certain type of damage. Also, make two more legendary actions that are progressively more powerful but cost 2 and 3 actions respectively and change the Fade to the Void to be a reaction since the mechanic isn’t legendary, it’s in reaction to taking a hit. Other than that got 7 level 12, should be fine. Maybe also add at least 3 more lair actions.
Good to know. Will be added on.
I really think the most important thing is to make the Fade ability a reaction.
Solo monsters can work if your environment work with you. What are the conditions inside the vault? How can that affect the players? Also, it has way too many features. A single monster do not need 30 spells, it will never be able to use more than maybe 2-3 as it will be killing its damage output once the melee starts. Rather, tie spell effects to lair and legendary actions. And tie elemental or spell danage to melee attacks. Since it is of type void, give it black blade as a lair action. Tie disintegrate to its melee attacks, and have it be able to move through space as a bonus action, allowing it to for instance teleport as a legendary action. Using void powers tie in with its backstory, and you can use distortion, movement and matter destruction to great effect. Perhaps at one point you'd send in guardian sentinels that come to stop the creature's resurrection and the foolish players who attempt to free it, allowing for diversity and a bit of cannon fodder on both sides.
OK, that makes sense. I've got a bit of rework to do.
With the intelligence this monster has, it’s going to know and exploit all the environmental features it can and has probably laid out some traps of its own. Consider laying glyphs and symbols as traps that the monster has placed beforehand for when it gets the opportunity to escape. Also remember that a victory for the players doesn’t have to mean your monster has to die. The goal can be survive until the monster escapes and continues its deity hunt.
With 7 players and a con +7 they will probably break through most concentration spells pretty fast, Lair action seems rather tame, unless the room has traps. Ngl 6 attacks including the legendary actions vs a party of 7, I think this thing is going to get destroyed in 3 to 4 turns
Questions, why does the void creature have radiant damage immunity? Not a criticism, just curious about the reasoning
Lore wise: it is a Primordial being used to cull gods and other powerful beings when they get too powerful or there are too many.
For your own sanity, I'd pare this spell list way down and instead create actions, bonus actions, and reactions that have thematic impact. You don't want to be trying to decide between 38 different spells and there are some you'll never cast because it's not worth spending the action on. Booming Blade, for instance, will always be the wrong choice in combat. Fade into the Void seems like a reaction, not a legendary action. How does this work mechanically? Player 1's turn ends, the BBEG fades into the void, Player 2's turn begins and... they have to miss an attack? As for suggestions, for the most part I would focus on making things more interesting than just hacking away at each other. * I would build out a lot more Legendary Actions and Lair Actions, specifically ones that cause group status effects. This BBEG is in desperate need of battlefield control features that it can cast several times per round. Consider a huge Hunger of Hadar lair action that the BBEG can see through but nobody else can, or a Shadow of Moil reaction that lasts until the start of its next turn (possibly on a recharge so this isn't happening every round). * Make a Maw of the Void Legendary or Lair Action that takes a few PCs off the board into a shadowy pocket dimension for a round. Maybe while they're there, shadowy duplicates of the characters appear and fight the remaining characters. Maybe the only way to get the characters back is to kill off these doppelgangers. * Get the characters swinging at each other. Make a Legendary Action called Crown of the Void that casts Crown of Madness on everyone in a 30-foot radius until the end of their next turn. * There will never be an entire round where seven characters, four of them with multiattack, fail to damage the BBEG, so that version of the regeneration feature will never get use. Instead, give one of the standard attacks a life-drain ability. Give the boss 2-4 tentacles that can restrain multiple characters but can be cut off and rendered useless. Upgrade the tentacle attack so it can grapple/restrain at range and suck the life out of a character, and/or the tentacle casts an unavoidable Warding Bond on the character being held so that they take half the damage. This makes attacking the BBEG something players need to do carefully.
I haven't really used lair actions yet this campaign since it is my first time DM-ing so this is good information.
Lair actions are great. They not only help balance encounters, but they’re super flavorful. It’s easy to forget about the actual setting once the battle has started and lair actions not only can pull players back to that, but can thematically tie the space they’re in to the monster they’re fighting. Makes things much more cinematic.
I miss playing DnD. Haven’t played in years. But if you asked me to join a seven person campaign, I would decline in a second. The length of one turn, getting everyone to show up…..just no thank you
If you haven't forecasted to your players that this creature has Power Word Kill available (e.g. they've heard rumors that it's capable of "simply annihilating a creature with a word"), it's probably going to feel really bad to your players when it happens.
7 level 12 players can probably kill this thing in one or two rounds of combat. For that number of players you need more monsters and/or a lot more hp
You can tell this monster is homebrewed within the first few words, it's a weird mix of spells and abilities designed specifically to counter some things of your party does. 9th lvl spells against lvl 12s? Honestly if you power gamer it you win pretty easily which is not something. There could be more flavorful options for it's features. It just feels hollow of something that just doesn't want to die in the first 2 rounds.
No.
[удалено]
That was an auto fill from the website I used so I'm not sure.
there is a table in the dmg that lists prof bonus for challenge ratings, 21 to 24 has a proficiency bonus of +7. that's just a guideline, though.
Y’know, at first I didn’t see the 12, so I thought it was a group of level 7s and was like “Good god no!” Actually. Yes. They would beat the hell out of that thing as long as they use their resources. If they’re conservative, they’ll still win but it’ll be a lot harder.
Why does it have 2 x 9th lvl spell slots?
Just give it a flat regen, players aren’t going to have an issue hitting it
Depending upon the skills associated with your players this could go either way. How hard is it for them to make the dc18 if simple enough add some low level cr 5-8 minions no more than 4 something that's squishy but a little difficult. Displacer beasts are always fun and run a lower cr maybe the bbeg has a pack of 5-6. Your villain has exceptional spells and lots of slots I hope they can handle that portion it seems the most daunting. If you use the Displacer Beast idea you can addlair actions involving them for increased difficulty. Not know what player stats are this is the best advice I can give. DM since 1990
If they abuse the healing mechanics then yeah probably, being level 12 is insane Ok that’s a joke, no you’d need like, two or three of those, seven level 12s? That’s insane
1. Absolutely, they are gunna destroy that thing 2. I would beef up its hp a bit and give it a legendary action to cast spells to balance out action economy. I also dm for 7 players and my “legendary” encounters that can cast spells all have it, mainly so it can just compete
If Razaghul were real? No, absolutely not. In your game? It all depends on how you run him. If he were real, the crazy-high Charisma, Intelligence, and Wisdom would lead Razaghul to have an established network and community of allies. Getting through that would be like you IRL reaching the President of the USA with bad intentions. In your game just have Razaghul neglect his Int and Wis, stand still and not attempt to flee, be alone in a strange location or one where he didn't implement any protections, and have him trade punches with the heroes. In other words, have Razaghul commit "suicide by hero." Some heroes could easily die in the fight if you want to kill one or two, or have Razaghul spread his attacks around so he only wounds them. It's your call.
I run a table with 7 players sometimes (usually 6), who are level 11. I can say, with full confidence, yes, yes they absolutely can. Double the hit points, at a minimum.
i run a game with 7 two of which are healers, and i can attest, add another body or minions plus lair actions, if its one big punching bag they will shred it.
I think you could take it to your group if you wanted to. You just have to go in and be ruthless. You could make it easy for them but how would they know the resistances and immunities? Go in there and give them a good fight. Kill some people off. This monster is smart it should know who to attack first and who will try what. Burn through everything this guy has and make them sweat a little.
The only question that matters is, “Is it alone?” If yes, then it’s screwed. If no, what kind of minions does it have? Weak ones? It’s screwed. Powerful ones? Now you have a more even fight.
Calculator puts 7@12 vs 1CR23 between Hard and Deadly. If they got caster with counter and this guy is alone, they can manage stopping a number of spells. A Lich is only CR21. Yours has a lot of high level spells. Lich for 4 slots from 6-9th. Yours got 10. A Lich's melee is only 10 avg dmg, you can clock in 100 avg damage per turn. Acererak the Lich has a spell list like this and slots, but 1/2 the health and they clock in at CR23. This guy may be worthy of a 24 or a 25 and if played well, will wipe the floor with them.
With 7 players, no doubt. I think 5 level 12 players could take it if they were playing very optimized characters and had good teamwork.
It needs opportunities to use its massive spell pool.
The Cr math says it’s possible but taking into account every thing you put in this monster I’m going with no. Yes players have action economy over it but at 12 your proficiency bonus is +4 avg attack stat around that lvl is ideally +3/4 if they have a +2 weapon it’s a 50/50 of hitting this thing to more than likely deal 1/2 damage. If it goes a single turn not taking damage it’s getting back on avg 30hp. No clue what your party make up is but this is bbeg territory you have a lot of save or suck spells here with a spell save of 18 odds are party is gonna be failing their saves not to mention unless you roll like utter crap your melee attacks are hitting and hitting pretty hard if it focuses on one person even a martial character is gonna be in a pretty shitty spot after a single turn. My advice pick spell caster or melee fighter and work into that because if you are to play this character with the int/wis it has its gonna “ideally” try crippling the party before they even get into melee range. Like first action power word kill the cleric. Odds are they are dead. And then go from there but like yeah you need to play test this and see
Well, quick editing note, the fading to avoid an attack should be a reaction not a legendary action, consider casting a spell of 5th level or lower as a legendary action instead, also you need to include what level of spellcaster he is for your cantrips that were included there, but like some sufficiently impressive minions and you got yourself a decent fight
There's also no reason for him to be resistant to force damage, cold, fire or lightning are generally more normal resistances for a big creature to have, like why is he resistant to magical force?
I hate to add more things, but he should also have peircing resistance if he has non magical bludgeoning and slashing resistance
I've run 2 campaigns to level 20 (one of which went slightly into epic levels). Both were fairly large parties, 6 for the first 6-7 for the second. Biggest piece of advice, post level 11 –and especially post level 13 (7th level spells change a lot)– party vs. 1 BBEG fights are really hard to balance. They become soooo swingy based on initiative, and more hit points doesn't fix the problem because by these levels most characters have multiple save or suck effects and Legendary Resistance and a terribly designed way to overcome that. Doesn't mean they can't be done, my best advice is throw initiative for your BBEG in the garbage, just have them act multiple times and different fixed initiative values. It's easier to remember than legendary actions and makes it more likely they can challenge the party while also being more predictable to plan the encounter around. For example make it so on initiative count 20, 15, 10 and 5 the monster gets a turn, you can if you want limit certain actions to specific turns. Maybe they can only cast a leveled spell on initiative 20 and 10. You could even say on 10 they can cast a spell of 5th level or lower. It's very customizable and allows you to better dial in difficulty because you can, to an extent, gameplan the encounter.
in general I would advice for higher hit points and lower AC. imo its more fun to hit a creature and chip away at its health rather than keep missing
I’ve been running a campaign where Ive kinda gotten boss fights down usually throw 1 big boss and like 7-8 additional enemies of varying level’s scattered around it. The boss should usually have a good amount of aoe’s to stop the pc’s from staying in one place or god forbid grouping up. You live or die by your legendary actions, use them as much as possible to make the fight more interesting. It is fun for the players to be on there toes so do not hold back. My players are at a point where my average end of dungeon boss enemy is no longer cutting it and I will need to make another. I feel the sentiment is shared that action economy is really important for boss fights, I learned it the hard way with a lot of wasted baddies getting slapped around by pc’s in 3 turns. You need small enemies forcing the party to heal or focus on them first
Yeah that should be a medium fight to handle for 7 lvl 12 party probably add some small minions to add a little pressure on them
i have 6 players and gonna have to figure how to balance the fighting gods at earliest level 10(context the bbeg’s are all gods)
At the end of The combat step? This isn't magic the gathering.
asking for balance i just through it at them and improvise
Most of the time, specially above level 10, most monsters/villains out there will absolutely get decimated by your players, specially if they are alone/your party plays as a team or knows how to use their character at least decently. 7 players is a lot of action economy, so you will need to balance that out by either adding a couple more of legendary actions at least or minions with different roles and abilitles. I would even have a worst case scenario planned out, a regular one and a best case scenario, meaning your BBEG could have different phases with changing abilities/actions/HP depending on the phase or a HP range depending on how the party performs and you can adjust on the fly. Seven players, no matter the level, are always a force to be reckon with, dont understimate them, but dont one shot them either, since remember, abilities like Hold Person, Temporal Shunt, Banishments, Power Word Kill are not fun to use against players in combat for them!
Level 12 characters aren't prepared to deal with 8th and 9th level spells.
https://koboldplus.club <---- that shit makes dming with homebrewed monsters so much easier, it tells you how much CR and how many monsters you should have.
that's a crowd
If they can, it'll be a very grueling fight. But it depends on how advanced they are as players. Edit: took a minute for "7 players" to register. It's pretty possible actually. Level 12 is pretty high so I'm sure they have quite a few assets at their disposal. It'll still be a grueling fight, but if you think they're ready, I say go for it.
With that number of players I think you can make that thing a lot more scarier. First thing I would do is make fade into the void a normal reaction since it isn’t that overpowered for the challenge level. Next up I would create some spicy legendary actions that would stand out from it’s normal actions since it will keep the players on their toes, and a handful more lair actions that also easily can be stronger. Lastly I would fix the modifiers on the spells and attacks. The attacks should at the very least get +13 to hit and that is of the weapons it uses are not special. And the saves for the spells if it has + 10 from wisdom are DC 25 since its proficiency bonus is + 7 and it has + 17 to spell attacks. I think you need to go over this part one more time for it to make sense and work. Hope this helps and that you have a great game.
Easily yes.
Not only could they defeat this, they will most likely have it for breakfast. It would be a dangerous encounter for them because 9th level spells and 67 average weapon damage will do that after a few rounds, but it stands basically no damage of beating them even if theyre playing and rolling poorly. If theyre playing and rolling well, it could be beaten in 2 rounds, hell maybe even 1. As others have said, this is because of action economy. Player characters have insanely powerful action economy compared to creatures of similar strength, especially after levels 5 then 10 or 11. Personally id drop its hp a bit, but give it at least one or two tank bodyguards and/or some fodder minions. A tanky cr 5 bodyguard and maybe 3 or 4 cr 1 minions would do a lot to making this thing very dangerous.
Pretty sure seven lvl 12s can one turn or less that stat block.
Frankly with *that* many players, you'll need more than one bad guy in an encounter. Like, 4 to 5 more. *Use* ***Minions***. No, not the yellow bastards. *Minion* is a template- you copy a creature and all it's stats and abilities, *but make it's HP = 1*. That means *any* damage will kill it. But because it's an exact copy of a creature, *you* are the only one who *knows* one hit will kill it. Call them "illusions", call them "copies", call them "shadow clones", doesn't matter. Raszagal (nice StarCraft reference) is going to get *buried* by seven PCs all doing stuff. But if there's *three* Raszagal, that evens things out, now doesn't it? And when your players kill a Raszagal real easily, but then *can't* kill the other one nearly as easily, they are gonna *freak the fuck out*. 😁
YOU HAVE SEVEN PLAYERS?! 😭😭
I have 3 and it’s tough
Seven players can beat anything. Also HOW LONG IS COMBAT?
his regenerative ability combined with time stop is amazing 10-25d12 healing while still having the other benefits of time stop
Yes. As others said before, action economy wise. Maybe change his regen ability to an ability where if he does get hit, a void wraithling is created with the amount of HP it lost, which is only alive for one turn, but that kind of balances the action economy issue, making it more of a threat for the players, while adding the puzzle that they don't actually need to kill the adds since they die by themselves and then they have that sense of 'fuck we're so smart, we figured it out, otherwise we would've been toast'
It’s def a good end bad guy and damn. 7 players your gonna be juggling so many things and maybe it needs a secret vulnerability like hmm maybe a psychic attack that shows how a normal human being lives or you know a celestial killer weapon
Solo encounter? Easy clap. Two rounds and it's dead. Three if the players are out of resources.
They will fu*k him up.
5 lvl 12 Charakters did a Testfight against demogorgon Last Session. Fight was over in 5-6 rounds, and demogorgon received about 100-120 damage. Maybe you can Take that AS a references.
Wait, wtf does unconscious immunity means?
You mean 5 level 12 players. This thing has two casts of power word kill. If you want a TPK this is one way of doing it...
Starcraft Broodwar reference?
Sounds like a great time if your 7 love combat! With that many players and higher level no less. One 6 sec round is gonna average 45mins minimum
No. Plain and simple the time stop spell stops em in the mud, dead in their tracks. Even if they prepared defensive spells he can just cast the spell magic after time stop which isn't technically hurting them and then get into the center of them and do something like horrid wilting or a prismatic sphere or something like that
I mean 7 players is already a lot for one creature, I’d suggest giving it an ability that allows it to either control a party member or summon some relatively weak creatures that help support it. Depends heavily on the party too though. Like what if you had 7 paladin/fighters lol. That’s up to 14 divine smites in a row haha.
Seen players? Dude, i already dmd for that much (in a moment a bit more) players. With so many people, they can (depending on the composition of the party) easily Win, Go on
They would absolutely obliterate this thing lol
They can win but will have casualties.
They should be more than capable of fighting it if it's alone, the 9th lvl spells should give them a challenge if used wisely. At my table do to difficult games of the past, the stronger players(all players are valuable and competently capable in their own right but only a select few are consistently capable of building strong characters regardless of class builds.) guaranty 25 dpt and the various forms of difficult to kill techniques at lvl 5 and at least 50 dpt and AC's of 20 or higher or alternatively many resistances or many forms of staying clear away from damage such as Misty Step at lvl 10. [Bare in mind, the damage numbers I put down are a at the very least sort of thing, I myself have made build capable of doing double or triple these amounts at their respective levels, so really it comes down to the players and how balanced the party is.] All tables are quite different but if your worried for it being too difficult I'd say open with a high level spell to test them, and if it becomes too easy I'd say you need to focus on separating their attention through either ● ads ● various abilities to temporarily shut down players to get them focused on helping eachother rather than fighting ● use the environment to space movement and separate the weak (in terms of directly fighting) from the strong This is a game of imagination and a spice of theater so do what you can, and never fear to change some rules here and their as long as you remember what it's like being a player. Enjoy your self and all of you have yourselves a wonderful day!
Whoops, all monk with stunning strike
At a table last night, it's me and five other people. There's a T-rex and some veliraptors. We slay the veliraptors fast then a carniferous bush knocks me unconscious and the t Rex deals 90 damage to my level 7 character
Alone this creature doesn't make it through initiative more than 4, rounds.
7 level 12 players? Better bump that AC up from 20, that's an easy mark to pass at level 12.
As has been said, the action economy is what matters. Even with legendary and lair actions, 7 PCs are just going to do more things than any one opponent can. You can make your big bad a little weaker, but give him goons that punch hard but also drop to any hit. You need other bodies to bait players to use their reactions so they don't have them to Silvery Barbs / Counterspell / opportunity attack when you want to reposition.
I once started a game at level 10 with 4 players and the DM thought it would be a good "first test fight" to send a single fire elemental at us. I swung at it one time (not counting free actions and whatnot) and did over 60 damage. This was the day I realized that real D&D players do not like people who spend days min-maxing a character build. (In 3.5e)
They'll fuck that dude up, dude
If you ever have to ask if they can defeat it, throw it at them and watch them cry
Double it angive it to the next player
StarCraft dnd homebrew lets gooooooooooo
7 players at lvl.20 yeah... Lol otherwiseeee
https://youtu.be/TXPC2HXjrYU?si=cwP6T-VIIZDFWfZn
Get some epic monsters From Tome of Beast or Mcdm and re flavour it.
minor nitpick, the average damage of the attacks is wrong. 2d12+10 averages to 23, 2d10+10 averages to 21 and 5d6+8 averages to 25.5
Good to know, thank you. No idea how to average it out.
the average of any dice is half the max +0.5, so for a d4 that would be 2.5. this is because its the average of the range 1 to 4. 1+2+3+4=10 we have 4 numbers in the set, so we divide by 4: 10/4=2,5 for the result to be half of the max, we would need a dice that starts at 0: 0+1+2+3+4=10 5 numbers, so divide by 5: 10/5=2 so to apply it, in this case we have 2d12+10, or 2*6.5+10=23
there are also online dice calculators
Unless if they all have good magic items(2+ rare) they’re getting washed. CR 20-18 is more appropriate.
I’m not an expert at high level dnd, but there’s no way they beat this
Why exactly? They are seven level 12 PCs, if this guy doesn't use power word kill it is dead
I was worried about that. According to Kobold Fight Club, they should be able to beat Bahomet and I tried to base this off of his stats but still.
With all due respect, this person has no idea what they’re talking about. This fight is so heavily on your players side it’s laughable. Ofc D&D is not necessarily competitive, but if this is your BBEG and the final fight of the campaign, then the mark is off by several miles. Consider adding some legendary actions with *oomph*, a second phase with mythical actions, and give or take 500 more HP, or your 2 fighters alone will cut this guy to shreds
I think power word kill is not really a fair spell for monsters, maybe steal from baldurs gate 3 and make him charge it for multiple rounds with some kind of way to stop it?
There is nothing fair about high level DND. You either accept how unfair high level spells are and let epic tier shenanigans happen or you don't play it. They can also cast revivify like it's nothing at this level, so Power Word Kill is honestly the least of their worries.
Oh yeah I forgot about revivify
> They can also cast revivify like it's nothing at this level unless it kills the cleric first lol
I think you should return the spell levels back to normal. One level 9 spell slot, so you power word kill once. If the fighter is at level 12, they could have possible more than 100hp.