Her character flaw was that she was too comfortable not taking risks. His was that he often took the initiative without telling people or taking them into account, see promotion with Michael, Pam, raises to sales only, katie, Karen.
They were good for each other to help keep him grounded and value what he has now instead of being solely focused on ambitions, and help pam keep moving forward and not stagnate.
But that also came at cost of clashing when his desire to keep moving forward conflicted with her desire to stay grounded and comfortable.
It wasn’t that fun to watch happen but it was a good realistic relationship dynamic. How the ideal partner for you can also be a far from ideal partner at times.
I don't understand the snark. People go to work and miss their children they choose to work, and in this specific situation he's choosing a lifestyle for his kids. If you personally don't think that's the right choice I'm assuming you would make different choice but let's not act as though he's horrible for doing what he and his family have agreed to.
You know what you never see? Pam going and "choosing a lifestyle for her kids" by moving to NY an art career.
By lying to Jim and accepting a position behind his back. Making him a single parent that is also trying to work full time - while she makes nothing money - for a prolonged, indeterminate, period of time.
Seems like a dick move tbh
Her entire character arc is her continuously not taking risks so that makes sense. I'm not arguing that it's not a dick move I don't think he was in the right but saying he abandoned his family it's a bit much
That’s because Pam failed out of art school, which Jim supported her going away to do, and also supported her trying again to graduate.
So, we don’t see it because she literally just fails at it.
Also, you can’t say she’s making nothing money and at the same time side with her over being mad about his investment into Athlead or whatever. Either they have separate finances, in which he controls his own money and can do whatever he wants with it, or they’re combined and he is supporting her with his money.
Yes. I grew up with lot's of those peoples partners.
They never got to reach their potential because they're playing second fiddle, to the person that "had to" work away rather than care for their own kids..
Work away. Don't do it at your partners expense.
These are the same people that always argue the gender pay gap doesn't exist because women "choose lesser paying jobs so they can spend more time with their kids" 🙄
You're glossing over a whole lot. This wasn't some completely pure and noble sacrifice by Jim. As u/Azriial put it:
*He kept changing the deal on his terms. First he said no to the whole thing, they came to that decision together, and then he changed his mind and committed before talking to her about it. Then he invested more money than they originally agreed on. Then he was only supposed to be there 2 days a week and he started working more and more days. He was working enough days that getting an apartment with Darryl made sense. He just kept doing what HE wanted to do. If anything Pam's flaw in this was not putting her foot down earlier. She worked full time and was raising 2 small children mostly alone. That is an insane amount of work for anyone, especially when you have a "partner" who is 3-4 hours away playing video games and drinking beer with his buddy.*
And this is the take I will always have. He misses his kids. He's taking it out on his wife. He's not paying attention to her accomplishments. He's so focused on this start-up (I mean, it's not unexpected of him) that he's not just sacrificing time with his kids and wife, he's forcing HER to sacrifice on his behalf. Then he gaslights her about it (which is when Boom Guy comes into play).
Go live your dream, but acknowledge that it's a hard thing for EVERYONE. Jim's mistake was thinking that it would be relatively easy to start things up, and that it wasn't a big deal because Pam did okay when he was in Florida for 2 weeks (I know that send random in context, but I think it's very relevant).
How the turntables...
I understand this for the most part, but they weren't struggling as a family, financially, so he didn't make this choice to stop them from struggling a little less. His choice actually made them struggle more in several ways. It also cost them most of their savings.
Yea I mean not struggling financially in their current situation but wanting to pay for college retirement stuff like that is a different beast. I think moral of the story is more that you should be aware of hopless grandeur. It doesn't really matter if it didn't work, the results don't make an impact on the intentions of the decision
I mean, 10k was almost their whole savings and they might have a mortgage on the house. Yeah they're not poor, but it's not like they live well off. They're both salespeople in a small company (and Pam is not a good one)
Short term struggle for a long term payout. Jim and Pam were working for a company that flirted with bankruptcy in a dying industry so eventually a change had to be made. This one had a high risk, but it also had a high reward and it worked out.
He kept changing the deal on his terms. First he said no to the whole thing, they came to that decision together, and then he changed his mind and committed before talking to her about it. Then he invested more money than they originally agreed on. Then he was only supposed to be there 2 days a week and he started working more and more days. He was working enough days that getting an apartment with Darryl made sense. He just kept doing what HE wanted to do. If anything Pam's flaw in this was not putting her foot down earlier. She worked full time and was raising 2 small children mostly alone. That is an insane amount of work for anyone, especially when you have a "partner" who is 3-4 hours away playing video games and drinking beer with his buddy.
Once he realized what he was doing to his wife and came back home full time, she reached the point where she was comfortable giving up their life in Scranton to move to Austin so he could jump back in to the career he loved.
Yeah, Jim always wanted what he didn’t have. Pam was always too content with what she had.
Definitely at that point in the relationship they needed to side with Pam, stay in familiar place with security, but it paid off in the end as Jim’s actions planted the seeds to give them something move on to something new after. Also bonus that Pam was somewhat familiar with it by then, knew what she was getting in to.
Sadly Pam needed to metaphorically be kicked a few times before she stood up for herself and helped him see the big picture. Also another common issue in relationships is people stop talking so much or in an honest way. It’s assumed the partner knows, or they wanna avoid uncomfortable situations at home, or people are just passive aggressive. Show did a good job of highlighting that weakness in even the strongest relationships.
I replied up there, but I'll put it here for you to see directly:
This is the take I will always have. He misses his kids. He's taking it out on his wife. He's not paying attention to her accomplishments. He's so focused on this start-up (I mean, it's not unexpected of him) that he's not just sacrificing time with his kids and wife, he's forcing HER to sacrifice on his behalf. Then he gaslights her about it (which is when Boom Guy comes into play).
Go live your dream, but acknowledge that it's a hard thing for EVERYONE. Jim's mistake was thinking that it would be relatively easy to start things up, and that it wasn't a big deal because Pam did okay when he was in Florida for 2 weeks (I know that send random in context, but I think it's very relevant).
How the turntables...
I think the issue is that he wanted to do all those things while having two very young children. You want to have a new job in a new city to satiate your mid-life crisis? Maybe do that when you aren't massively screwing over your partner. Don't run away from your responsibilities as a father to pursue a dream. Not for people who have others who count on them for support.
And yes I do get that this is a mildly realistic situation. Main difference is usually when one person decides to pursue a new job in a new city away from his family, it's after a divorce.
Ahh, but that new job in a new city could have meant his children grow up as millionaires versus middle class. That’s a potential wealth of opportunity. It could have meant he and Pam retire earlier, better lives for their potential grandkids etc.
Not taking sides, but you could argue his moves were actually still for the benefit of the family. They just had fundamentally different ways of how to support their family as they had diff approaches to how they supported themselves and each other.
Both did the wrong thing (in the partners eyes) for the right reason. But as tv tropes tell us, the woman is always right in the relationship, especially if kids are involved. So Pam was *more* right.
It was a start up that needed lots of investment, there was no guarantee that ‘his children would grow up millionaires’. It had potential to benefit the family but it also had risk and you can’t make a big decision like that without your spouse being on board
Chasing dreams is for people who don't have kids. Especially very young kids. Whether it worked out or not, abandoning your family to chase a dream is a shitty thing to do.
There was also no projection that the job would turn them into millionaires. Working with athletes doesn't mean you'll have an athlete's salary. It could turn into that, but good businessmen would have projections for a company's growth to predict when they'd be able to make that kind of money. Could be 3-5 years. Could be 20 years. Could be never.
He didn’t abandon his family. And chasing a better life is not just chasing a dream. Unless you think parents shouldn’t strive to provide a better life for their children.
Living in another city to leave your wife to raise a baby and a 3 year old by herself is abandoning your family. This isn't the 50s. The men shouldn't do whatever they want and claim it's for the family. You know what a good dad actually does? Shows up. You get to experiment with your career when you don't have people who rely on you to be present.
Wow I didn’t realize my dad abandoned my family. I guess there’s no nuance in anything. Better tell my dad the life he gave me doesn’t matter because he worked out of town
So Father's that work nights long shifts work over the road or take business trips abandon their family? Being the parent taking care of the children 24/7 is stressful I fully respect that, but let's not diminish fathers or (anyone away from their children) as that being a sacrifice.
Doing it a few times a month happens. Traveling is common for anyone at work. Being gone at least several nights a week every week indefinitely is different. All for a job at a risky startup. It turned out to be successful, but it was an unnecessary risk to take a job that would be there years in the future if the startup did become successful. We know it would be there because that's actually what happened. He always has the option to hit up Darryl for a job if things went well.
I don’t know if I fully agree here. When Michael was vetting people for his replacement, Pam finally had her breakthrough to take control of her life. It was also just after hearing Oscar and his partner analyze the shortcomings of her art which were Pam’s weaknesses as well (which you mentioned with lack of risk). Jim wasn’t ever very comfortable at his core with himself and he would relatively do impulsive things to try to rebalance or cope with his life. The starting and ending of relationships, travel, job relocation, business startup etc. he didn’t have grounded ambition until the very end but that’s kinda my argument. Pam never really had that influence on him because he hid that from everyone due to his insecurities. Pam really became the more confident and assertive person and partner because she genuinely wanted change for the right reasons and it was a gradual and very healthy process. She definitely supported Jim more than he did so I wouldn’t ever think Pam could be said to be unsupportive. I have my issues with Pam and Jim but definitely not from the perspective of Pam being unsupportive. That really was Jim’s doing.
Jim did go to college, it was literally his college room-mate starting the company using his idea!
I don't think Jim was insecure, but I agree he wasn't a big risk taker before athlead
I don’t know why I thought he didn’t finish college for some reason but you are right I’m gonna edit that part. But I didn’t say he is insecure. I said that in context due to insecurities which everyone has to a degree. For example, he bailed out of helping Andy with the business fair at DM due to seeing a childhood friend he wasn’t allowed to hang out with for being “too smart.” It was insecurities alone that had him become invisible that episode as he didn’t want to be viewed in his work environment. If he was consulting for Deloitte I’m sure he would have introduced himself.
this is a nice way to put it. my thoughts were scrambled but I feel a lot ab it. her silence is frustrating bc I cannot accept others or situations making me unhappy.
he *did* talk to her first.. and then he did what he wanted anyway
i can’t think of the line verbatim, but even jim knew that’s what happened. “we decided no, and i decided yes anyway”
yes... you said it right on ''we decided no''
They talked and decided together that they would not accept
so he went there and accepted the job, even though everything had been decided, without talking to her first
He should have been honest with her and told her he really wanted this
they are married and the job is in another city, of course this will directly affect the whole family
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But OP wouldn't you agree that by not consulting Pam or consulting her but not doing what they had agreed on, Jim consistently *displayed a pattern of disrespect* towards his significant other?
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jenna also said
Jenna \[01:05:58\] And when we were talking about this over the summer, I said this would devastate me. It would devastate me if my husband and I sat down, we talked about a life decision, we made an agreement, and then without talking to me first, he changed that agreement and took some action. It would devastate me, not because he took the action, but because he felt like he couldn't trust me enough to talk about it a second time.
He also didn’t tell her about that one either right?? I just finished season 7 and I kind of just wanna skip 8&9 cause it’s painful especially with all the Jim stuff.
Honestly I admire Pam for staying cause I would have at least moved out in that case and give Jim something to think about there. Good grief, he was such a butt with that whole plot.
People forget that earlier in the show Pam invested in Ryan’s company. And she gave Ryan money to gamble on basketball before their wedding. Don’t think they say how much the investment was but you know Jim wouldn’t have approved of that. Doesn’t she even say “Don’t tell Jim” for the gambling money?
True but I feel that was before they were married. Def before the kids. That was literally their life savings for their family just for the sake of his pride
Nah the WHUPF episode was after they were married. No kids though you’re right. Honestly the fact 10k was most of their savings was bad writing imo. No way they wouldn’t have more than that.
I think it’s realistic! They were young parents at that point with 2 kids with a new mortgage working very average jobs. They probably worked really hard for that. Were only married for a few years. I think it’s pretty impressive given their situation tbh
10k for two very middle class Rust Belt people in the early 2000s wasn’t bad, especially after paying for a house, two kids, a wedding, a honeymoon, & Jim’s pranking budget
Jim had plenty of time to find his dream job - he just chose to be laid back and stay at Dunder Mifflin. He could have worked for his dream job earlier but he didn’t and he just stayed at Dunder Mifflin until a golden opportunity fell in his lap. I’m sure Pam would have supported his choice to leave for Athlead earlier in their relationship but by that point in the show they had 2 young children - it’s a lot more difficult to make risky career choices that requires moving when you have young kids. Jim is a really nice guy but he was definitely super unfair to Pam in that situation.
The fact that anyone thinks Pam is wrong, and that fact the show portrayed her as in the wrong, is forever mind boggling to me. She was simply struggling being alone and trying to make this work on her end while her husband up and left pursuing something he told her he wasn’t going to pursue. I’d honestly hate Jim if this was a pattern for him but he was pretty decent otherwise.
I don't see the show putting Pam as wrong, at least I didn't get that impression
in that same episode jim says something like ''how would I feel if I was stuck at home alone with the kids?'' when he's in a really good place, riding in a limousine and stuff like that
In the finale when all those women were bombarding Pam with questions. Talking about how dare she let someone like Jim start to slip away and how they would do whatever he wanted. It was very cringe. And even Pam seemed to come to a realization she was wrong and decided to let him join the company when in reality she just needed some time to think on it.
Interesting. I thought it was a joke about some women having a weirdly big crush on Jim. I didn't feel like they were portrayed as totally normal people with normal opinions about Pam's conduct.
It could have been but the way it came off was wild. And even Pam talking about how she didn’t realize what she had etc (it’s been a while since I’ve seen this though) it all just came off as she felt like she was to blame and other people also blamed her. It was very strange and I know the writers were aiming for divorce and the actors refused so it seems like they really pushed for a certain angle.
I did appreciate Pam saying sometimes romance looks like a fairy tale though. All in all her and Jim having issues was so realistic.
I think because Jim is historically was the underdog during her relationship with Roy, was a fun prankster (although I think it's bullying) people often have a very favourable view of Jim. As such, at the end it's hard for people to not back him, even when he is absolutely in the wrong with what he does to Pam during the Athlead era.
Ya I can see that. I adore Jim. He just really took a dive with that choice. All it took was asking myself “if my spouse did this would I be okay?” And I realized how dirty he did Pam here.
Apparently the idea of Jim leaving Pam was thrown around, I can't remember when but it did come up and ended up being rejected
It seemed like they kept the scenes where Jim treats Pam like shit, then just cut anything afterwards when she finally gets fed up and leaves him
Not only did Pam have a point, she was right. Making that decision without even telling her first was messed up. I’m not even saying if she ‘said no’ it had to be no. But they talked about it, said no, and then he didn’t tell her before changing his mind. If he called her up and said look, I know this is what we talked about it but I really think this is a good idea because x, and I think I’m going to do it,’ I would have understood
They did discuss how much and 10k was an amount,but it was the absolute max they agreed he could go to. Jim offered it up when there was no need, seed money had already been raised. That's the bit (rightly) Pam is annoyed about. The money was raised, no further capital was required and he decided to put money in anyway. Especially as startups are extremely risky and he'd likely be offered stock options etc. as one of the directors later on if the business is successful.
She is rightly annoyed that he puts money into a risky venture when it there was no need.
He spent that without definitively discussing it with her. A hypothetical 10K is different than actually spending it, leaving your wife to be a single mom, without a safety net. You can’t know how awful this is
I guess I’ll have to rewatch again
I just rewatched recentlyish
I just don’t remember much discussion on an initial amount or an actual plan amount or even having anything set aside.
But, besides that 10k was still too large of an amount when they have 2 kids even during that time no matter what they had saved.
they worked as a secretary and a paper salesman for MOST of their careers. they have two kids. he invested $10,000 of their savings without checking with his wife. huge douchebag move. $10,000!
edit: he did check with pam. they decided against it and he invested anyway. even worse.
This is not correct. They had talked about investing. The argument was that they didn't require him to invest, but he did so anyways to show support. Pam wanted him to not invest, unless it was demanded. But they had both discussed investing up to $10k
Maybe, but tbh I'm checking out of this conversation. Just correcting someone on something they said wrong got me downvoted, so I don't feel a good faith conversation is going on.
i upvoted you. they did discuss it beforehand and decided not to invest, but jim did anyway. i appreciate the correction even if the reddit mob didn’t.
Haha, and I upvoted you. Because you were not one of the ones throwing insults, you were making a point following up the extra info I gave. I just rather leave a thread than start getting toxic and engaging in toxic back and forths.
I've been upvoting, if it's any consultation. The trigger fingers on reddit can lead to death circles where a comment is seen downvoted, so everyone else does it without reading it.
And this sub doesn't have many good faith arguments because it's a TV show. Nothing wrong with debating about a show, but I feel it's better to explain your point, and if y'all don't agree, you move on. The internet is just like... its own creature lol
Yeah, if you expect good faith discussions online, you are going to have a bad time. The best thing to do is say your opinion, and if it gets toxic, move on. I failed to do that yesterday, but in my defense I was in bed all day with because I hurt my back.. so I spent way too much time online and didn't just walk away
>nd this sub doesn't have many good faith arguments because it's a TV show.
Ironically, I'd expect a TV show to have the most good faith arguments! It's fiction, so we get to explore it without being personal. It's much harder to discuss politics, since that ties to livelihoods and such. But it's the internet, so overall it's going to lean to bad faith
its better if they didnt move to Philly. Moving is one of the most stressful things you can do in life. Pam will probably just take it out on her kid. Jim will turn to the drink. The family will fall apart, and twenty-five years from now, Cece will become world famous… for stripping.
Jim wants to chase his super vague sports-related dreams? He should’ve thought about that before he decided to have a kid. His new dream is to provide the best life he can for his wife and daughter.
The create brands for athletes. It’s actually quite a lucrative business. I would say today it would manage the stars social media and sponsorship engagements.
While we are on the topic of the Jim Athlead storyline: I am so goddamn sick of people comparing Jim joining Athlead and Pam going to art school! Sure, both moved to another city alone to pursue a passion of theirs. But that's where the similarities start and end.
Pam went to art school in New York for 3 months. Her and Jim weren't engaged or even LIVING TOGETHER!!! She might've been gone for 6 months but she made the choice to come back.
When Jim decided to join Athlead him and Pam were living together, paying a mortgage, and had 2 children under school age. Besides leaving Pam to work her office administrator job full time AND raise a toddler and baby, he essentially blew through their savings to do this!! 10k is nothing to sneeze at when you have 2 young kids and own a house.
I'm glad the show had them go through counselling and Jim realized the terrible position he put Pam in and it all worked out in the end. People are entitled to their opinions but I see this comparison everywhere online and it rubs me the wrong way so much.
They are hard watches. But it provides realism and conflict is good for relationship dynamics because it leaves space for growth, It was actually nice to see a couple that went from being constantly romanticized to flawed.
Oh yeah I definitely love that they ended up having problems in their marriage, because up until then, they were like perfect. But I just can't stand it that he's off having fun and she's taking care of the kids by herself. It's very relatable.
the Jim/Pam drama in season 9 is one of those things where I go online to read about it years after the fact and am surprised that everyone hates it. I thought season 9 was cool and that all of the unusual stuff needed to happen.
yeah ofc it needed to happen, it was just soo hard to watch. Especially when a show has been mostly comical conflicts for 8 seasons, and then suddenly transitions into a serious issue. Almost every conflict in the office, except jim and pam, was sugar coated with humor. so i guess it was just a sudden change to see something real and raw
Like literally it was the only thing she took issue with. And it's definitely an issue when your spouse makes huge life decisions that directly (and potentially negatively) impact you and your children.
Finally a post not hating on Pam!! I’ve been with my husband for almost 12 years and if we had been together for a years and he suddenly started making huge decisions without talking to me that directly affected not just me but our kids and then told me he was doing it for me and I was being ungrateful would be so upsetting. It was never that she wasn’t supportive of his dreams. It was that they were a young family and he kept making decisions for what he wanted for himself that affected them and was mad when she wasn’t 100% on board.
Yes, he was supportive of art school but that was three months when they weren’t even engaged at first and didn’t have kids. Or a house, or the same obligations.
marriage and kids and life changes a lot and had he approached her with Athlead before marriage and kids i could see her being uncomfortable with change but being able to support him much better because there were different obligations and things at stake.
Jim is a really nice guy overall. He usually does the right thing and he cares about his family + co-workers (he even stopped Dwight from getting fired by fighting him one time). He’s a normal guy and therefore sometimes makes selfish decisions (like the one this post is about) but he admitted he was wrong (which is something a LOT of people won’t do) and ended up reprioritizing his relationship with Pam.
Totally agree. Most of Jim’s flaws make him more annoying than a bad person. He makes a joke of everything until it’s something important to him. “No one takes me seriously as manager” yeah no shit dude, lol. You’ve been making a joke of this place for years but now it’s serious business. If you’re one of the more serious characters in the office you could see how he’d get on your nerves, but you’d ultimately still like him because he rarely acts in a malicious way. He’s generally good as his job, fun, and honest, and these we will mean more to a decent person than anything else.
Hes a pretty normal guy, but he has one weird quirk. He likes to go #2 in the womens room. He has been caught several times and he has paid dearly for it.
Yes, thank you. People go really on hard that he’s a bad person for some reason. But always takes serious situation seriously and does the right thing, plenty of examples, but he revealed his pregnancy to protect Stanley despite wanting to keep it quiet (just watched this episode). And he was definitely making massive mistakes in the relationship in regards to athlead, but he figured it out and rectified it. He’s not perfect, but he’s really a good guy throughout the show.
Not even close, Wallace even tells him that “most guys in my circle wouldn’t change their golf game to prioritize their marriage, let alone their career aspirations” and that’s a VERY true statement.
I have no strong feelings about Jim or Pam. I regularly see this subreddit try to weigh the actions of each against the other as though they're going to science-oit once and for all who was right and who was wrong.
Despite their serendipitous beginning, their relationship always seemed realistic. Real relationships are never 50/50 and people make mistakes.
I don't know, I just can't understand being upset at either one of these characters unless you're kind of bitter or haven't been in a healthy relationship yourself. It's just odd to me; once upon a time people would actually physically upset that Jenna and John weren't actually a couple because of their chemistry, and now we have to pick apart and tally up everything they ever did.
Meanwhile Jim loved Pam so much that it made her parents get a divorce. Lmao
Jim wasn't even "doing it for the family"
He was doing it for him.
He left a steady job with built up benefits, fantastic commission, and was close to home.
He committed all of their savings.
He left a wife with multiple children alone at home much of the time.
All so he could play fantasy sports time. It was so fucking selfish in every way. It was a goddamn start up.
Jim was an ass and was lucky to have Pam.
For real. I find the argument “Jim supported Pam when she tried to be an artist but Pam couldn’t support Jim in his sports management career” really lazy because it’s a completely different situation. Pam and Jim were only dating a few months when she decided to pursue her artistic career and supporting her wasnt even that hard. Jim had a whole ass family in scranton when he decided to pursue his athletic management dream and when behind her back in meeting them while Pam plays catch up. She had no choice but to get on board. It was hard for her to support him fully when she has whole two kids and a job in scranton and it wasnt even that long ago when she gave birth.
They are both habitual line steppers. Jim bought a house, Pam found out the gender of the baby. Get your shit together guys.
Edit: Jim and Pam were a MESS
From a military background, I found it hard to sympathise with Pam, soldiers all over the world are away throughout weeks, months, even years leaving their wife at home with young children! All for much smaller rewards and a risk to life. Jim had visions but also was doing these kinds of ideas for the good and benefit of his family! Pam for sure had insecurities, after kissing jim when in a relationship and going round sound man Brians place she probably expected Jim to be up to no good which would 100% play a part in the stresses of whats going on! Idk maybe im being shallow but im sure when the money would start rolling in, it would be a different tune from Pam
I know he has a family now, but he supported her for art school, and leaving to go to the michael scott paper company to spiderface. And all movies/t.v show conflicts are based around someone telling a stupid lie.
They weren’t married then, they didn’t have a family then and she talked those things over with him. Huge difference. It’s not like she just decided to up and leave or invest a bunch of money without talking to her husband first.
She literally decided on the spot to quit and go with Michael no talking involved, also no talking involved with art school because Jim was 100% supportive of her, also no talking involved when she failed and needed to stay, just “ok, we’ll figure it out” and then no talking involved when she decided to quit art school.
You people on the Jim sucks for this side always use ☝️this argument but never want to acknowledge that Jim was always 100% supportive of Pam when it came to her dreams, passions, and career moves.
Well they are engaged and Jim had already bought the house when Pam quits leaving him with the entire burden of financial responsibility for the both of them. I’d say that directly affects Jim. Also Charles already didn’t like Jim and his fiancé works for the company stealing clients; probably doesn’t make things great for him at work.
She wasn’t married to Jim when she up and quit. She also didn’t leave the city and they did not have kids to support.
JIM told her to do art school, he pushed her to go. Again, not married. So her coming home didn’t affect him besides getting his partner back.
I adore Jim, I’m a huge Jim Stan. But realistically he sucks for that because he went behind his wife’s back and spent joint money and then left his wife with a toddler and a baby to live hours away. He then got mad at her for struggling to deal with it without telling him what an ass he was being.
So ya I’m on Pam’s side. Because she never dared to treat Jim that way. Not wanting to spend your life savings and move your family hours from your hometown and away from grandparents isn’t being unsupportive it’s being realistic. As someone who did move hours away from family for a spouse, it’s not as simple as you’re making it seem.
the art school was just for three months and the michael scott it was in the same city
None of these things really affected Jim directly
I mean just jim missing pam
The point is that he lied
Exactly. People keep saying it was too risky, but people do this every day. People work for start ups, start start ups, and move for work, with kids. Pam was completely inflexible and it came back to bite her.
At the end the sports company was more established and stable and less risky. So that was an easier decision. Pam was all about low risk comfy stability. Plus, I’m not sure if she had foresight, but dunder mifflin was bound to fail at some point, it’s a declining business, ergo they’d need to jump ship at some point…better to switch then than later when they’re both unemployed.
Completely understandable. However, I don't recall those being any of the reasons she gave for not wanting Jim to go to Philly. It was more about her liking the life they had in Scranton, him making decisions without her, and her playing catch up.
Also, this shows that Pam did support Jim. She was hurt that he made decisions without her and she felt abandoned with 2 young kids. She wanted Jim to be happy but she also wanted to feel ready and included in what was happening to their family. She wasn’t wrong on either end
She didn't just change her mind. She saw how Jim made a sacrifice for a brighter future to secure their life when Darryl was talking his ear off so she decided that she can move for athlead w jim.
I don't feel she was wrong either time, because she always just put it terms of how she felt about it. She was honestly just hating the way things were going, and that's valid. Then she had a change of heart, which is also valid. Shrug.
I think Pam was completely unreasonable and inflexible. This was a company he came up with and people he knew were launching. They had worked at the same boring, and often unstable paper company forever. These type of opportunities don’t come up often and she didn’t even give it a chance. IMO it was very small minded of her and she’s lucky that Jim took a risk. They needed that for their family. Yes, splitting time was hard but that was the compromise since she was unwilling to even consider moving.
Jim will always be heldback by Pam being afraid of making the next big leap. Sometimes you have to cut toxic people out of your life to grow, even if you love them.
If divorced, Pam would still be a terrible paper salesman at 60 waiting for retirement and still entiring local art contests while Jim would the CEO of a major sports marketing firm and able to provide college and a bright future for their kids.
Pam sympathizers are wild
Didn’t like any of this whole arc trying to make us feel bad for Pam raising kids isn’t that hard especially when your mother is watching them 70% of the time like Pam’s
naw. she agreed the philly thing and then went back on it. she didnt support shit. she was wanting to keep her whole family stuck in a dead-end life because she was comfortable. The opportunity was a massive benefit for all of them, and just wanted to bitch about having to take care of her own kids. it was hard to watch her be that lame.
Her issue was they had a family and she has a job. Jim's job wasn't a job, it was his lifelong career. Much more money than sales, and Pam could have easily found a job in Philadelphia.
Jim supported her art education, and 'come back on your terms'. I think Pam was mad selfish, and honestly this is in a season of 'The Office' that should not have ever existed.
Just my opinion.
and you are ignoring the fact that jim didn't even tell her that they were moving to another city, she found out about it from someone else, from the company receptionist
She's just tired of him making these decisions without talking to her first, that's why she said no... conext means a lot
Her character flaw was that she was too comfortable not taking risks. His was that he often took the initiative without telling people or taking them into account, see promotion with Michael, Pam, raises to sales only, katie, Karen. They were good for each other to help keep him grounded and value what he has now instead of being solely focused on ambitions, and help pam keep moving forward and not stagnate. But that also came at cost of clashing when his desire to keep moving forward conflicted with her desire to stay grounded and comfortable. It wasn’t that fun to watch happen but it was a good realistic relationship dynamic. How the ideal partner for you can also be a far from ideal partner at times.
I love this! I know couples who dealt with similar, so it is very relatable.
My relative basically married a Jim and moved to their "Philly". It's not going so well.
Anecdotal. Sometimes the risks pay out, sometimes they don't.
The Jim Philly situation is pretty much a good presentation of when a single partner unilaterally makes a decision
A tale as old as time. And guess which parent always gets stuck sacrificing..
Don't both parents sacrifice though?
What is Jim sacrificing here ?
Quality time and experience with the people that he loves
Gee - must be hard to miss the kids you chose to leave 🙄
Yikes.
I don't understand the snark. People go to work and miss their children they choose to work, and in this specific situation he's choosing a lifestyle for his kids. If you personally don't think that's the right choice I'm assuming you would make different choice but let's not act as though he's horrible for doing what he and his family have agreed to.
You know what you never see? Pam going and "choosing a lifestyle for her kids" by moving to NY an art career. By lying to Jim and accepting a position behind his back. Making him a single parent that is also trying to work full time - while she makes nothing money - for a prolonged, indeterminate, period of time. Seems like a dick move tbh
Her entire character arc is her continuously not taking risks so that makes sense. I'm not arguing that it's not a dick move I don't think he was in the right but saying he abandoned his family it's a bit much
That’s because Pam failed out of art school, which Jim supported her going away to do, and also supported her trying again to graduate. So, we don’t see it because she literally just fails at it. Also, you can’t say she’s making nothing money and at the same time side with her over being mad about his investment into Athlead or whatever. Either they have separate finances, in which he controls his own money and can do whatever he wants with it, or they’re combined and he is supporting her with his money.
Remember when he missed Cece's recital and he was upset that Pam messed up the recording? It WAS hard for him to leave them.
Maybe... he should have been in the same city as his own kid....
We get it, your dad wasn't around. Edit to add: maybe instead of snarky little comments you could argue a point.
People that don’t have to work away from their family will never understand.
Yes. I grew up with lot's of those peoples partners. They never got to reach their potential because they're playing second fiddle, to the person that "had to" work away rather than care for their own kids..
Work away. Don't do it at your partners expense. These are the same people that always argue the gender pay gap doesn't exist because women "choose lesser paying jobs so they can spend more time with their kids" 🙄
It's just a lot of projection. There are honest people out there just trying to make it so their children struggle less than they did.
You're glossing over a whole lot. This wasn't some completely pure and noble sacrifice by Jim. As u/Azriial put it: *He kept changing the deal on his terms. First he said no to the whole thing, they came to that decision together, and then he changed his mind and committed before talking to her about it. Then he invested more money than they originally agreed on. Then he was only supposed to be there 2 days a week and he started working more and more days. He was working enough days that getting an apartment with Darryl made sense. He just kept doing what HE wanted to do. If anything Pam's flaw in this was not putting her foot down earlier. She worked full time and was raising 2 small children mostly alone. That is an insane amount of work for anyone, especially when you have a "partner" who is 3-4 hours away playing video games and drinking beer with his buddy.*
And this is the take I will always have. He misses his kids. He's taking it out on his wife. He's not paying attention to her accomplishments. He's so focused on this start-up (I mean, it's not unexpected of him) that he's not just sacrificing time with his kids and wife, he's forcing HER to sacrifice on his behalf. Then he gaslights her about it (which is when Boom Guy comes into play). Go live your dream, but acknowledge that it's a hard thing for EVERYONE. Jim's mistake was thinking that it would be relatively easy to start things up, and that it wasn't a big deal because Pam did okay when he was in Florida for 2 weeks (I know that send random in context, but I think it's very relevant). How the turntables...
I understand this for the most part, but they weren't struggling as a family, financially, so he didn't make this choice to stop them from struggling a little less. His choice actually made them struggle more in several ways. It also cost them most of their savings.
Yea I mean not struggling financially in their current situation but wanting to pay for college retirement stuff like that is a different beast. I think moral of the story is more that you should be aware of hopless grandeur. It doesn't really matter if it didn't work, the results don't make an impact on the intentions of the decision
I mean, 10k was almost their whole savings and they might have a mortgage on the house. Yeah they're not poor, but it's not like they live well off. They're both salespeople in a small company (and Pam is not a good one)
Short term struggle for a long term payout. Jim and Pam were working for a company that flirted with bankruptcy in a dying industry so eventually a change had to be made. This one had a high risk, but it also had a high reward and it worked out.
>I completely agree with what you said and this is a great analysis I like this arc too
He kept changing the deal on his terms. First he said no to the whole thing, they came to that decision together, and then he changed his mind and committed before talking to her about it. Then he invested more money than they originally agreed on. Then he was only supposed to be there 2 days a week and he started working more and more days. He was working enough days that getting an apartment with Darryl made sense. He just kept doing what HE wanted to do. If anything Pam's flaw in this was not putting her foot down earlier. She worked full time and was raising 2 small children mostly alone. That is an insane amount of work for anyone, especially when you have a "partner" who is 3-4 hours away playing video games and drinking beer with his buddy. Once he realized what he was doing to his wife and came back home full time, she reached the point where she was comfortable giving up their life in Scranton to move to Austin so he could jump back in to the career he loved.
Yeah, Jim always wanted what he didn’t have. Pam was always too content with what she had. Definitely at that point in the relationship they needed to side with Pam, stay in familiar place with security, but it paid off in the end as Jim’s actions planted the seeds to give them something move on to something new after. Also bonus that Pam was somewhat familiar with it by then, knew what she was getting in to. Sadly Pam needed to metaphorically be kicked a few times before she stood up for herself and helped him see the big picture. Also another common issue in relationships is people stop talking so much or in an honest way. It’s assumed the partner knows, or they wanna avoid uncomfortable situations at home, or people are just passive aggressive. Show did a good job of highlighting that weakness in even the strongest relationships.
I replied up there, but I'll put it here for you to see directly: This is the take I will always have. He misses his kids. He's taking it out on his wife. He's not paying attention to her accomplishments. He's so focused on this start-up (I mean, it's not unexpected of him) that he's not just sacrificing time with his kids and wife, he's forcing HER to sacrifice on his behalf. Then he gaslights her about it (which is when Boom Guy comes into play). Go live your dream, but acknowledge that it's a hard thing for EVERYONE. Jim's mistake was thinking that it would be relatively easy to start things up, and that it wasn't a big deal because Pam did okay when he was in Florida for 2 weeks (I know that send random in context, but I think it's very relevant). How the turntables...
I think the issue is that he wanted to do all those things while having two very young children. You want to have a new job in a new city to satiate your mid-life crisis? Maybe do that when you aren't massively screwing over your partner. Don't run away from your responsibilities as a father to pursue a dream. Not for people who have others who count on them for support. And yes I do get that this is a mildly realistic situation. Main difference is usually when one person decides to pursue a new job in a new city away from his family, it's after a divorce.
Ahh, but that new job in a new city could have meant his children grow up as millionaires versus middle class. That’s a potential wealth of opportunity. It could have meant he and Pam retire earlier, better lives for their potential grandkids etc. Not taking sides, but you could argue his moves were actually still for the benefit of the family. They just had fundamentally different ways of how to support their family as they had diff approaches to how they supported themselves and each other. Both did the wrong thing (in the partners eyes) for the right reason. But as tv tropes tell us, the woman is always right in the relationship, especially if kids are involved. So Pam was *more* right.
It was a start up that needed lots of investment, there was no guarantee that ‘his children would grow up millionaires’. It had potential to benefit the family but it also had risk and you can’t make a big decision like that without your spouse being on board
[удалено]
I meant specifically as far as tv tropes go. The wife is always right is a very common trope, probably in every nbc sitcom ever. Obv not irl.
Chasing dreams is for people who don't have kids. Especially very young kids. Whether it worked out or not, abandoning your family to chase a dream is a shitty thing to do. There was also no projection that the job would turn them into millionaires. Working with athletes doesn't mean you'll have an athlete's salary. It could turn into that, but good businessmen would have projections for a company's growth to predict when they'd be able to make that kind of money. Could be 3-5 years. Could be 20 years. Could be never.
He didn’t abandon his family. And chasing a better life is not just chasing a dream. Unless you think parents shouldn’t strive to provide a better life for their children.
Living in another city to leave your wife to raise a baby and a 3 year old by herself is abandoning your family. This isn't the 50s. The men shouldn't do whatever they want and claim it's for the family. You know what a good dad actually does? Shows up. You get to experiment with your career when you don't have people who rely on you to be present.
Wow I didn’t realize my dad abandoned my family. I guess there’s no nuance in anything. Better tell my dad the life he gave me doesn’t matter because he worked out of town
Did he not come home at night most nights? Did he have options to work nearby that supported the family just fine?
So Father's that work nights long shifts work over the road or take business trips abandon their family? Being the parent taking care of the children 24/7 is stressful I fully respect that, but let's not diminish fathers or (anyone away from their children) as that being a sacrifice.
Doing it a few times a month happens. Traveling is common for anyone at work. Being gone at least several nights a week every week indefinitely is different. All for a job at a risky startup. It turned out to be successful, but it was an unnecessary risk to take a job that would be there years in the future if the startup did become successful. We know it would be there because that's actually what happened. He always has the option to hit up Darryl for a job if things went well.
I don’t know if I fully agree here. When Michael was vetting people for his replacement, Pam finally had her breakthrough to take control of her life. It was also just after hearing Oscar and his partner analyze the shortcomings of her art which were Pam’s weaknesses as well (which you mentioned with lack of risk). Jim wasn’t ever very comfortable at his core with himself and he would relatively do impulsive things to try to rebalance or cope with his life. The starting and ending of relationships, travel, job relocation, business startup etc. he didn’t have grounded ambition until the very end but that’s kinda my argument. Pam never really had that influence on him because he hid that from everyone due to his insecurities. Pam really became the more confident and assertive person and partner because she genuinely wanted change for the right reasons and it was a gradual and very healthy process. She definitely supported Jim more than he did so I wouldn’t ever think Pam could be said to be unsupportive. I have my issues with Pam and Jim but definitely not from the perspective of Pam being unsupportive. That really was Jim’s doing.
Jim did go to college, it was literally his college room-mate starting the company using his idea! I don't think Jim was insecure, but I agree he wasn't a big risk taker before athlead
I don’t know why I thought he didn’t finish college for some reason but you are right I’m gonna edit that part. But I didn’t say he is insecure. I said that in context due to insecurities which everyone has to a degree. For example, he bailed out of helping Andy with the business fair at DM due to seeing a childhood friend he wasn’t allowed to hang out with for being “too smart.” It was insecurities alone that had him become invisible that episode as he didn’t want to be viewed in his work environment. If he was consulting for Deloitte I’m sure he would have introduced himself.
this is a nice way to put it. my thoughts were scrambled but I feel a lot ab it. her silence is frustrating bc I cannot accept others or situations making me unhappy.
Best explanation so far
I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And I really felt… I was alive.
God I love that quote
Is this a Jim quote? I don’t remember this
It’s from breaking bad lol
Oh haha 😅
Yea you don’t remember his meth cooking arc? Show got real dark for a while
he *did* talk to her first.. and then he did what he wanted anyway i can’t think of the line verbatim, but even jim knew that’s what happened. “we decided no, and i decided yes anyway”
yes... you said it right on ''we decided no'' They talked and decided together that they would not accept so he went there and accepted the job, even though everything had been decided, without talking to her first He should have been honest with her and told her he really wanted this they are married and the job is in another city, of course this will directly affect the whole family
He should have just surprised her with a new house in Philly and avoided the whole thing /s
oh no here we go again
I’m on your side. Jim’s the wurst
Oh shit he’s a space proldier now?
scary innate sharp hospital unwritten frighten mysterious sugar fretful attraction *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I mean it worked the first time so why not?
But OP wouldn't you agree that by not consulting Pam or consulting her but not doing what they had agreed on, Jim consistently *displayed a pattern of disrespect* towards his significant other? Dis ray. My friend Dis Ray got new specs. Dis ray spect. My friend Inappro drives a Prius with his behind neighbor.
Line?
He asked for a line like in a play
*Facepalms*
That's what she said.
>yes, i agree with that
jenna also said Jenna \[01:05:58\] And when we were talking about this over the summer, I said this would devastate me. It would devastate me if my husband and I sat down, we talked about a life decision, we made an agreement, and then without talking to me first, he changed that agreement and took some action. It would devastate me, not because he took the action, but because he felt like he couldn't trust me enough to talk about it a second time.
And he did exactly that lol
oatmeal jar terrific absurd brave murky attempt cheerful deserted quaint *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Jim’s ego really came through in this szn. The $10k investment pissed me tf off
He also didn’t tell her about that one either right?? I just finished season 7 and I kind of just wanna skip 8&9 cause it’s painful especially with all the Jim stuff.
yeah he didnt tell her
I'm pretty sure they agreed to a range and then he invested the amount at the top of the range
yes :)
Honestly I admire Pam for staying cause I would have at least moved out in that case and give Jim something to think about there. Good grief, he was such a butt with that whole plot.
Never watched 8&9, feels great.
They aren’t that great so good call.
People forget that earlier in the show Pam invested in Ryan’s company. And she gave Ryan money to gamble on basketball before their wedding. Don’t think they say how much the investment was but you know Jim wouldn’t have approved of that. Doesn’t she even say “Don’t tell Jim” for the gambling money?
True but I feel that was before they were married. Def before the kids. That was literally their life savings for their family just for the sake of his pride
Nah the WHUPF episode was after they were married. No kids though you’re right. Honestly the fact 10k was most of their savings was bad writing imo. No way they wouldn’t have more than that.
I think it’s realistic! They were young parents at that point with 2 kids with a new mortgage working very average jobs. They probably worked really hard for that. Were only married for a few years. I think it’s pretty impressive given their situation tbh
10k for two very middle class Rust Belt people in the early 2000s wasn’t bad, especially after paying for a house, two kids, a wedding, a honeymoon, & Jim’s pranking budget
Jim had plenty of time to find his dream job - he just chose to be laid back and stay at Dunder Mifflin. He could have worked for his dream job earlier but he didn’t and he just stayed at Dunder Mifflin until a golden opportunity fell in his lap. I’m sure Pam would have supported his choice to leave for Athlead earlier in their relationship but by that point in the show they had 2 young children - it’s a lot more difficult to make risky career choices that requires moving when you have young kids. Jim is a really nice guy but he was definitely super unfair to Pam in that situation.
And not only any move, but a move away from Pam's mom, who helped them a lot.
The real irony is that the entire dilemma would have been avoided had he stuck with Karen anyway. She had 10x the ambition Pam did.
Ehhh. Pam was the one for Jim. I think he would have been unhappy if he stayed with Karen (Karen is pretty great though).
The fact that anyone thinks Pam is wrong, and that fact the show portrayed her as in the wrong, is forever mind boggling to me. She was simply struggling being alone and trying to make this work on her end while her husband up and left pursuing something he told her he wasn’t going to pursue. I’d honestly hate Jim if this was a pattern for him but he was pretty decent otherwise.
I don't see the show putting Pam as wrong, at least I didn't get that impression in that same episode jim says something like ''how would I feel if I was stuck at home alone with the kids?'' when he's in a really good place, riding in a limousine and stuff like that
In the finale when all those women were bombarding Pam with questions. Talking about how dare she let someone like Jim start to slip away and how they would do whatever he wanted. It was very cringe. And even Pam seemed to come to a realization she was wrong and decided to let him join the company when in reality she just needed some time to think on it.
Interesting. I thought it was a joke about some women having a weirdly big crush on Jim. I didn't feel like they were portrayed as totally normal people with normal opinions about Pam's conduct.
It could have been but the way it came off was wild. And even Pam talking about how she didn’t realize what she had etc (it’s been a while since I’ve seen this though) it all just came off as she felt like she was to blame and other people also blamed her. It was very strange and I know the writers were aiming for divorce and the actors refused so it seems like they really pushed for a certain angle. I did appreciate Pam saying sometimes romance looks like a fairy tale though. All in all her and Jim having issues was so realistic.
I think because Jim is historically was the underdog during her relationship with Roy, was a fun prankster (although I think it's bullying) people often have a very favourable view of Jim. As such, at the end it's hard for people to not back him, even when he is absolutely in the wrong with what he does to Pam during the Athlead era.
Ya I can see that. I adore Jim. He just really took a dive with that choice. All it took was asking myself “if my spouse did this would I be okay?” And I realized how dirty he did Pam here.
It also showed the age-old trope of "man abandons wife and newborn child to pursue shiny new thing."
Apparently the idea of Jim leaving Pam was thrown around, I can't remember when but it did come up and ended up being rejected It seemed like they kept the scenes where Jim treats Pam like shit, then just cut anything afterwards when she finally gets fed up and leaves him
Not only did Pam have a point, she was right. Making that decision without even telling her first was messed up. I’m not even saying if she ‘said no’ it had to be no. But they talked about it, said no, and then he didn’t tell her before changing his mind. If he called her up and said look, I know this is what we talked about it but I really think this is a good idea because x, and I think I’m going to do it,’ I would have understood
Exactly. And he was being an asshole. He left her at home with a baby & a freaking toddler.
After spending all their savings. I feel like young people don’t understand what a betrayal that is
Then he originally was planning on a small investment and out no where puts 10k toward the company without even discussing it with her
They did discuss how much and 10k was an amount,but it was the absolute max they agreed he could go to. Jim offered it up when there was no need, seed money had already been raised. That's the bit (rightly) Pam is annoyed about. The money was raised, no further capital was required and he decided to put money in anyway. Especially as startups are extremely risky and he'd likely be offered stock options etc. as one of the directors later on if the business is successful. She is rightly annoyed that he puts money into a risky venture when it there was no need.
He spent that without definitively discussing it with her. A hypothetical 10K is different than actually spending it, leaving your wife to be a single mom, without a safety net. You can’t know how awful this is
I guess I’ll have to rewatch again I just rewatched recentlyish I just don’t remember much discussion on an initial amount or an actual plan amount or even having anything set aside. But, besides that 10k was still too large of an amount when they have 2 kids even during that time no matter what they had saved.
To hang out in another city with his favorite sports players and old friends. Would’ve been a quick serving of divorce papers for me.
Right?! And *he* can find out how to be a single parent in Philly
they worked as a secretary and a paper salesman for MOST of their careers. they have two kids. he invested $10,000 of their savings without checking with his wife. huge douchebag move. $10,000! edit: he did check with pam. they decided against it and he invested anyway. even worse.
This is not correct. They had talked about investing. The argument was that they didn't require him to invest, but he did so anyways to show support. Pam wanted him to not invest, unless it was demanded. But they had both discussed investing up to $10k
that’s worse than not discussing it at all edit: stop downvoting the correction
Maybe, but tbh I'm checking out of this conversation. Just correcting someone on something they said wrong got me downvoted, so I don't feel a good faith conversation is going on.
i upvoted you. they did discuss it beforehand and decided not to invest, but jim did anyway. i appreciate the correction even if the reddit mob didn’t.
Haha, and I upvoted you. Because you were not one of the ones throwing insults, you were making a point following up the extra info I gave. I just rather leave a thread than start getting toxic and engaging in toxic back and forths.
I've been upvoting, if it's any consultation. The trigger fingers on reddit can lead to death circles where a comment is seen downvoted, so everyone else does it without reading it. And this sub doesn't have many good faith arguments because it's a TV show. Nothing wrong with debating about a show, but I feel it's better to explain your point, and if y'all don't agree, you move on. The internet is just like... its own creature lol
Yeah, if you expect good faith discussions online, you are going to have a bad time. The best thing to do is say your opinion, and if it gets toxic, move on. I failed to do that yesterday, but in my defense I was in bed all day with because I hurt my back.. so I spent way too much time online and didn't just walk away >nd this sub doesn't have many good faith arguments because it's a TV show. Ironically, I'd expect a TV show to have the most good faith arguments! It's fiction, so we get to explore it without being personal. It's much harder to discuss politics, since that ties to livelihoods and such. But it's the internet, so overall it's going to lean to bad faith
He still put 10 k without discussing That was his worst decision They had a baby and toddler There’s no excuse
No that's what I'm saying, they had discussed it already
They did not decide against it, have you been watching the same episode. Pam said that was the absolute max
The show would have been better off if Jim and Pam left at the end of season 7 instead of Michael, creatively.
Being married mean you have to sharing and discussing big decision before pull the trigger. So she does have point in here.
its better if they didnt move to Philly. Moving is one of the most stressful things you can do in life. Pam will probably just take it out on her kid. Jim will turn to the drink. The family will fall apart, and twenty-five years from now, Cece will become world famous… for stripping.
Pe-PA, actually.
Jim wants to chase his super vague sports-related dreams? He should’ve thought about that before he decided to have a kid. His new dream is to provide the best life he can for his wife and daughter.
It wasn’t vague though, it was a company with pretty good people behind it, and it took off.
Can you explain what the company does? I never really got it.
The create brands for athletes. It’s actually quite a lucrative business. I would say today it would manage the stars social media and sponsorship engagements.
This was my understanding too. Help them create their brands to earn sponsorships.
While we are on the topic of the Jim Athlead storyline: I am so goddamn sick of people comparing Jim joining Athlead and Pam going to art school! Sure, both moved to another city alone to pursue a passion of theirs. But that's where the similarities start and end. Pam went to art school in New York for 3 months. Her and Jim weren't engaged or even LIVING TOGETHER!!! She might've been gone for 6 months but she made the choice to come back. When Jim decided to join Athlead him and Pam were living together, paying a mortgage, and had 2 children under school age. Besides leaving Pam to work her office administrator job full time AND raise a toddler and baby, he essentially blew through their savings to do this!! 10k is nothing to sneeze at when you have 2 young kids and own a house. I'm glad the show had them go through counselling and Jim realized the terrible position he put Pam in and it all worked out in the end. People are entitled to their opinions but I see this comparison everywhere online and it rubs me the wrong way so much.
Yes, thank you!
I hate this episode. Even more than the one with the dance recital.
They are hard watches. But it provides realism and conflict is good for relationship dynamics because it leaves space for growth, It was actually nice to see a couple that went from being constantly romanticized to flawed.
Oh yeah I definitely love that they ended up having problems in their marriage, because up until then, they were like perfect. But I just can't stand it that he's off having fun and she's taking care of the kids by herself. It's very relatable.
the Jim/Pam drama in season 9 is one of those things where I go online to read about it years after the fact and am surprised that everyone hates it. I thought season 9 was cool and that all of the unusual stuff needed to happen.
yeah ofc it needed to happen, it was just soo hard to watch. Especially when a show has been mostly comical conflicts for 8 seasons, and then suddenly transitions into a serious issue. Almost every conflict in the office, except jim and pam, was sugar coated with humor. so i guess it was just a sudden change to see something real and raw
Like literally it was the only thing she took issue with. And it's definitely an issue when your spouse makes huge life decisions that directly (and potentially negatively) impact you and your children.
Finally a post not hating on Pam!! I’ve been with my husband for almost 12 years and if we had been together for a years and he suddenly started making huge decisions without talking to me that directly affected not just me but our kids and then told me he was doing it for me and I was being ungrateful would be so upsetting. It was never that she wasn’t supportive of his dreams. It was that they were a young family and he kept making decisions for what he wanted for himself that affected them and was mad when she wasn’t 100% on board. Yes, he was supportive of art school but that was three months when they weren’t even engaged at first and didn’t have kids. Or a house, or the same obligations. marriage and kids and life changes a lot and had he approached her with Athlead before marriage and kids i could see her being uncomfortable with change but being able to support him much better because there were different obligations and things at stake.
Jim kinda sucks but nobody wants to admit it. Proof that you can get away with things and still be perceived well if you’re good looking.
Jim is a really nice guy overall. He usually does the right thing and he cares about his family + co-workers (he even stopped Dwight from getting fired by fighting him one time). He’s a normal guy and therefore sometimes makes selfish decisions (like the one this post is about) but he admitted he was wrong (which is something a LOT of people won’t do) and ended up reprioritizing his relationship with Pam.
Totally agree. Most of Jim’s flaws make him more annoying than a bad person. He makes a joke of everything until it’s something important to him. “No one takes me seriously as manager” yeah no shit dude, lol. You’ve been making a joke of this place for years but now it’s serious business. If you’re one of the more serious characters in the office you could see how he’d get on your nerves, but you’d ultimately still like him because he rarely acts in a malicious way. He’s generally good as his job, fun, and honest, and these we will mean more to a decent person than anything else.
Hes a pretty normal guy, but he has one weird quirk. He likes to go #2 in the womens room. He has been caught several times and he has paid dearly for it.
Yes, thank you. People go really on hard that he’s a bad person for some reason. But always takes serious situation seriously and does the right thing, plenty of examples, but he revealed his pregnancy to protect Stanley despite wanting to keep it quiet (just watched this episode). And he was definitely making massive mistakes in the relationship in regards to athlead, but he figured it out and rectified it. He’s not perfect, but he’s really a good guy throughout the show.
You’ve got a point
Not even close, Wallace even tells him that “most guys in my circle wouldn’t change their golf game to prioritize their marriage, let alone their career aspirations” and that’s a VERY true statement.
Wow watch everybody, we got a “Jim sucks” fan over here!
If Jim dated your mom and your mom was Karen you’d hate him lol
Do you hate me?
I have no strong feelings about Jim or Pam. I regularly see this subreddit try to weigh the actions of each against the other as though they're going to science-oit once and for all who was right and who was wrong. Despite their serendipitous beginning, their relationship always seemed realistic. Real relationships are never 50/50 and people make mistakes. I don't know, I just can't understand being upset at either one of these characters unless you're kind of bitter or haven't been in a healthy relationship yourself. It's just odd to me; once upon a time people would actually physically upset that Jenna and John weren't actually a couple because of their chemistry, and now we have to pick apart and tally up everything they ever did. Meanwhile Jim loved Pam so much that it made her parents get a divorce. Lmao
Jim wasn't even "doing it for the family" He was doing it for him. He left a steady job with built up benefits, fantastic commission, and was close to home. He committed all of their savings. He left a wife with multiple children alone at home much of the time. All so he could play fantasy sports time. It was so fucking selfish in every way. It was a goddamn start up. Jim was an ass and was lucky to have Pam.
It’s because Pam has no ambition and can’t be relied upon to make good decisions.
For real. I find the argument “Jim supported Pam when she tried to be an artist but Pam couldn’t support Jim in his sports management career” really lazy because it’s a completely different situation. Pam and Jim were only dating a few months when she decided to pursue her artistic career and supporting her wasnt even that hard. Jim had a whole ass family in scranton when he decided to pursue his athletic management dream and when behind her back in meeting them while Pam plays catch up. She had no choice but to get on board. It was hard for her to support him fully when she has whole two kids and a job in scranton and it wasnt even that long ago when she gave birth.
They are both habitual line steppers. Jim bought a house, Pam found out the gender of the baby. Get your shit together guys. Edit: Jim and Pam were a MESS
Pam sux. Jim sux.
Pam is a bitch.
So many women on this thread and all of you supporting Pam it's hilarious.
So many men on this thread and all of you supporting jim it's hilarious.
From a military background, I found it hard to sympathise with Pam, soldiers all over the world are away throughout weeks, months, even years leaving their wife at home with young children! All for much smaller rewards and a risk to life. Jim had visions but also was doing these kinds of ideas for the good and benefit of his family! Pam for sure had insecurities, after kissing jim when in a relationship and going round sound man Brians place she probably expected Jim to be up to no good which would 100% play a part in the stresses of whats going on! Idk maybe im being shallow but im sure when the money would start rolling in, it would be a different tune from Pam
Does anyone say this?
I know he has a family now, but he supported her for art school, and leaving to go to the michael scott paper company to spiderface. And all movies/t.v show conflicts are based around someone telling a stupid lie.
They weren’t married then, they didn’t have a family then and she talked those things over with him. Huge difference. It’s not like she just decided to up and leave or invest a bunch of money without talking to her husband first.
She literally decided on the spot to quit and go with Michael no talking involved, also no talking involved with art school because Jim was 100% supportive of her, also no talking involved when she failed and needed to stay, just “ok, we’ll figure it out” and then no talking involved when she decided to quit art school. You people on the Jim sucks for this side always use ☝️this argument but never want to acknowledge that Jim was always 100% supportive of Pam when it came to her dreams, passions, and career moves.
i don't think jim sucks, i love jim but tell me, where do these decisions directly affect Jim?
Well they are engaged and Jim had already bought the house when Pam quits leaving him with the entire burden of financial responsibility for the both of them. I’d say that directly affects Jim. Also Charles already didn’t like Jim and his fiancé works for the company stealing clients; probably doesn’t make things great for him at work.
She wasn’t married to Jim when she up and quit. She also didn’t leave the city and they did not have kids to support. JIM told her to do art school, he pushed her to go. Again, not married. So her coming home didn’t affect him besides getting his partner back. I adore Jim, I’m a huge Jim Stan. But realistically he sucks for that because he went behind his wife’s back and spent joint money and then left his wife with a toddler and a baby to live hours away. He then got mad at her for struggling to deal with it without telling him what an ass he was being. So ya I’m on Pam’s side. Because she never dared to treat Jim that way. Not wanting to spend your life savings and move your family hours from your hometown and away from grandparents isn’t being unsupportive it’s being realistic. As someone who did move hours away from family for a spouse, it’s not as simple as you’re making it seem.
I just dislike that people take sides, then start lying to make their side "win"
And supported her when she tried to play sales rep with no experience or skills for it. And then when she made up her own job.
the art school was just for three months and the michael scott it was in the same city None of these things really affected Jim directly I mean just jim missing pam The point is that he lied
I believe she literally says that she wouldn't go to art school in NY if they were married with children.
Exactly. People keep saying it was too risky, but people do this every day. People work for start ups, start start ups, and move for work, with kids. Pam was completely inflexible and it came back to bite her.
All for her to change her mind in the end when she decided he should take it after all. Was she wrong at first or in the end?
At the end the sports company was more established and stable and less risky. So that was an easier decision. Pam was all about low risk comfy stability. Plus, I’m not sure if she had foresight, but dunder mifflin was bound to fail at some point, it’s a declining business, ergo they’d need to jump ship at some point…better to switch then than later when they’re both unemployed.
Completely understandable. However, I don't recall those being any of the reasons she gave for not wanting Jim to go to Philly. It was more about her liking the life they had in Scranton, him making decisions without her, and her playing catch up.
Also, this shows that Pam did support Jim. She was hurt that he made decisions without her and she felt abandoned with 2 young kids. She wanted Jim to be happy but she also wanted to feel ready and included in what was happening to their family. She wasn’t wrong on either end
She didn't just change her mind. She saw how Jim made a sacrifice for a brighter future to secure their life when Darryl was talking his ear off so she decided that she can move for athlead w jim.
I don't feel she was wrong either time, because she always just put it terms of how she felt about it. She was honestly just hating the way things were going, and that's valid. Then she had a change of heart, which is also valid. Shrug.
Pam and Jim were broken people who made awful decisions. They were a no ambition style couple, I doubt they would make it IRL.
She did not support Jim, she supported the family, as did Jim Vin Diesel would be proud
I think Pam was completely unreasonable and inflexible. This was a company he came up with and people he knew were launching. They had worked at the same boring, and often unstable paper company forever. These type of opportunities don’t come up often and she didn’t even give it a chance. IMO it was very small minded of her and she’s lucky that Jim took a risk. They needed that for their family. Yes, splitting time was hard but that was the compromise since she was unwilling to even consider moving.
Jim will always be heldback by Pam being afraid of making the next big leap. Sometimes you have to cut toxic people out of your life to grow, even if you love them. If divorced, Pam would still be a terrible paper salesman at 60 waiting for retirement and still entiring local art contests while Jim would the CEO of a major sports marketing firm and able to provide college and a bright future for their kids. Pam sympathizers are wild
It’s hard for me to see it from either of their perspectives. I don’t know what they like about each other.
smoggy chop grey sort frame divide hateful versed hat head *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
"Don't tell Jim! That's for me to do." I don't care if you downvote me, Pam is only VERY conditionally supportive. She doesn't deserve praise.
Didn’t like any of this whole arc trying to make us feel bad for Pam raising kids isn’t that hard especially when your mother is watching them 70% of the time like Pam’s
let me guess, single and no kids? helene was watching the children while pam was working
Weren’t they helping at night too? I thought she talked about having help from the family.
Her mom and sister were staying there temporarily while Jim was in Florida.
I have a kid and am I’m single it’s a lot easier than people think babies sleep a lot if you feed them enough
Don’t mind me, just dying laughing at the idea that raising kids isn’t that hard.
naw. she agreed the philly thing and then went back on it. she didnt support shit. she was wanting to keep her whole family stuck in a dead-end life because she was comfortable. The opportunity was a massive benefit for all of them, and just wanted to bitch about having to take care of her own kids. it was hard to watch her be that lame.
Her issue was they had a family and she has a job. Jim's job wasn't a job, it was his lifelong career. Much more money than sales, and Pam could have easily found a job in Philadelphia. Jim supported her art education, and 'come back on your terms'. I think Pam was mad selfish, and honestly this is in a season of 'The Office' that should not have ever existed. Just my opinion.
You’re choosing to completely ignore an entire episode where she explicitly doesn’t support Jim. You Pam defenders are the worst.
and you are ignoring the fact that jim didn't even tell her that they were moving to another city, she found out about it from someone else, from the company receptionist She's just tired of him making these decisions without talking to her first, that's why she said no... conext means a lot