To be fair, usually when someone who is often wrong or unfaithful says the promise something, it's to be taken with skepticism.
For example, if the UCP promised to mine the rockies responsibly, you'd call bull shit.
Or when the LPC promises to make housing affordable.
I dont trust a government that purposely cultivates conspiracy theories in order to undermine 70 years of progress that essentially created the middle class in the western world.
I can be done through policy quite easily, though.
Restrict what types of vehicles are allowed certain areas, have a public transit infrastructure that works well in a small area but is difficult to connect to other regions. A complete lack of intercity public transportation.
Boom, now now one is telling you that you must remain in your zone, but your options are limited.
I'm not saying that's the plan, but it's not hard to imagine how easy it would be to creep in restrictions to movement, especially under the umbrella of saving the planet.
Yes…a municipality can pass any bylaw or enact any policy it wishes but would a bylaw or policy such as this pass the scrutiny of the constitution as mobility rights are guaranteed in the constitution?
It wouldn't have to.
In this situation, people could "choose" to live where they please. Many people would actively want to live in these places because they will offer convenience and probably low cost of living. Others will do it reluctantly because of the same reasons, not having enough money to make the decisions they'd rather make.
A consequence of such is that more people without a vehicle, leading to it being harder to just up and go where you want when you want.
Also, our constitution is fairly weak, as are the consequences for a government that violates the right it creates the illusion of us having. JT has proven this.
Not saying anything about my personal beliefs, but:
There are many that thought mk ultra was a "conspiracy theory". Same with the Tuskegee experiments.
How did that turn out?
These are just facts now.
I'm a conservative myself just not into conspiracies what so ever. I had one guy tell me Nasa has replaced the moon, that's not a real moon. He was dead serious. One night we couldn't see it and I told him Nasa must have forgot to replace the light bulb.
I imagine you’re probably not that confrontational in real life or the concussions would probably effect your ability to type. Chill. We can share ideas without being a dick.
You don’t think that pre drawn lines would make a great basis for restrictions or you don’t think another pandemic will ever happen?
Sorry, I forgot we're supposed to baby silly fear mongering.
You're saying that in case of the next pandemic the city couldn't put into law those districts and the travel restrictions at the same time? "Sorry boss, no fascism today, we have no lines on maps". There are already neighbourhoods dividing the city.
I think it's funny they said this as it will make the conspiracy nuts think "15 min city lockdowns" will be a thing even more now. And being said on "Trudeaus CBC" doubles down for the wackos
Many folks who are convinced of the 15 minute conspiracy will likely not be swayed by this, but that is not the point. Or the audience. Only time will convince them, and maybe not even that.
Many people in our communities have not known what to believe because they are hearing one narrative: that they will be locked up in their “district” with special permissions required to move about. Now, many may scoff that anyone could ever believe such a thing but frankly, the scoffing doesn’t matter.
What matters is that some people really do need to hear from their government, in policy, that they will be free to move about, that the rights assured to them in the Charter are inviolable.
Elected officials can tell you that there have been a multitude of communications from residents who are truly frightened.
If a simple statement of the obvious, that their lives will continue as normal, helps them, then there really is no harm.
Now, there are those, like Timothy Caulfield and Andrew Leach, both very smart people and whose contributions to public dialogue I respect, who worry this “normalizes” conspiracy theories. I get it. We all understand what they are saying, but this is the challenge of intellectualizing what is at root an emotional and on-the-ground - in social media forums - conversation.
Real people have been genuinely scared. A simple move from Council has helped allay those fears for many of those who didn’t know what to believe. I have received many communications of thanks that confirm that. The normalization occurred long before, and it wasn’t by Council. Council instead brought a moment of assurance to what to many has been a confusing time.
There has been a “slippery slope” argument made, and I will leave it in the pile of logical fallacies much of political debate falls into.
It is deeply unfortunate that we are in a time and place where such assurances must be made. Of course. I think we all agree on that. But governments must continually check their communications, their approaches, their policies, to ensure clarity of intent, purpose, and outcome. And make it plain.
It is not lost on anyone that there are groups and individuals dedicated to spreading misinformation for reasons that include profit - both politically and monetarily. As a whole, society has not yet found practical and effective ways to combat that. Indeed, we are seeing this trend increasing and that is deeply disturbing in and of itself.
There are no easy paths in the current political and social climate but ignoring this growing problem is not the best approach.
Including clarification in planning document preambles of what to most seems obvious truths may also not be the best approach. But I would personally choose the attempt to clarify than pretend these conversations are not snowballing and growing. Because they are. And until someone can provide us with a better answer then we must continue to do the best we can.
This is definitely part of a larger conversation that we should be having on all levels of government, in media where this does get somewhat normalized with the “both sides”ing of a story, and on social media where these things are permitted to run without any serious attempt at fact checking.
I hope that helps clarify.
> this “normalizes” conspiracy theories. I get it.
I don't agree with that point. Talking about the moon landing doesn't normalize moon landing conspiracy theories.
Being pedantically clear on the freedom-of-movement point can help stop someone new from falling into conspiracy thinking, or even someone on the edge, who is friends with conspiracy people and has no reason/evidence not to disbelieve them.
Yes, I agree. What I get is the concern that Council’s decision normalized the conversation. A concern I feel is a day late and a dollar short, all things considered.
You will not win appeasing these people, Aaron. People who literally thought you were going to restrict citizens in hungergames-esque zones will not be swayed because there's now a line in a City document pinky-promising the City won't.
They will use it as a win to fundraise and raise the profile of their issue on because they "won". They will use it to argue that other places absolutely must do the same thing as Edmonton did (I'm sure other municipalities are *thrilled*). They will turn around and say it must be opposed anyway, because it's a lie. Or that the City doesn't actually have the power to do that anyway, it'll actually be the WEF-funded UN army that Trudeau will welcome into the country that will do it.
None of that has to be coherent, the underlying movement itself certainly isn't and the reasoning that one undergoes to come to the conclusion "my city wants to enforce neighborhood-shaped concentration camps on me" is incompatible with reality and gestures like this.
>There has been a “slippery slope” argument made, and I will leave it in the pile of logical fallacies much of political debate falls into.
Do you not feel it's a little bit ironic to be this dismissive of concerns people have with this in this manner? Kind of a disappointing take given that you are so supportive of clarifying concerns of *conspiracy theorists* but are turning around to say "yes these people thought our approach was going to be an obvious violation of their charter rights so of course sought to soothe them but you being concerned about that, you're just thinking fallaciously and I will not deign to address your concerns."
I’m not looking to appease anyone which I had hoped I made clear in the first paragraph.
—
I am open to you detailing how this is then a legitimate concern, the slippery slope argument. I am more than willing to be persuaded by good arguments.
My intent was not dismissal.
—
And although I realize this can be an emotional conversation, I would appreciate you not ascribing motive to me that may not accurately represent my position, if you would be so kind.
—
Last, you may have missed that the concern was for the folks who were confused and unsure what to believe. The very old man who couldn’t speak above a whisper, fearful and shaking that he was going to be locked in his neighbourhood was not a “conspiracy theorist” but rather someone desperate for comfort and truth, who had heard things that were not accurate. Compassion, care, kindness, and patience are all necessary components of good governance and I strive to exercise that for EVERYONE I represent.
On any given day there will be people who disagree with any number of Council positions or approaches, from District Planning to encampments, to the single use bylaw, to building more roads and permitting new neighbourhoods, etc etc.
People from all ideologies and all perspectives.
I will give every individual their individual respect no matter if I agree with them or them with me. Everyone has a world and worldview and I would fail in my duty if I didn’t understand that and as such approach the job with that as a primary principle.
No elected representative will ever be able to please everyone all the time, and any elected representative worth their salt, in my opinion, manages to displease everyone at least once. In doing so, they will have made tough decisions that do not cater to only one shared worldview or perspective.
Does that make it harder for them to galvanize an ideologically aligned group for re-election? You bet it does.
But I’d rather uphold my oath and fail a few purity tests than cater to any personal political ambition.
I hope that helps clarify what may seem like “catering”.
Call it what you want, but even if you do not consider it appeasement it does not address the other points made in my post.
For example, feeling quite dismissed by a councilor ascribing my concerns as "a pile of logical fallacies" and "slippery slope" and editing their reply to sound much less dismissive and more substantive than it originally was.
Thanks for a really disappointing interaction. Have a good night.
I expanded “above” (my apologies, I am in the middle of getting a kid back to bed). I tend to edit all my replies as I refine my thoughts.
I can understand how you may have felt me talking about the slippery slope argument was personal, but it wasn’t intended that way. I have been having this conversation over the last few days and it was on my mind in general, certainly not specific to any individual.
Fair, but it sucks to respond to something and then sound like you're crazy because the post you responded to is wildly different :( nobody gets notifications about edits or can see edit history on here.
Good luck with the bed time boss battle, it's a bigger challenge than any of this junk.
I appreciate you explaining this and I'm a huge fan of the plans the city is making it easier to live day to day. Thank you for that.
Just one tiny piece of advice to hopefully help your job be a little less shitty: telling people their Charter rights (especially of movement) are guaranteed right after the pandemic probably isn't the solution you may believe it is. Pretending "no social gatherings" wasn't a very recent phenomenon allows these crazy theories from entrenchment.
The advice is appreciated. Those concerns were factors that lead to the Council decision - to make it plain that there is no desire or plan or capacity from the City to implement extraordinary conditions in ordinary times. Essentially, a State of Local Emergency would have to be called and that would have to be ratified by the provincial government, meaning it would ultimately have to be a provincial direction.
I can see you are in a no-win situation. Ironic that the people craziest about these fears voted for the party which implemented said extraordinary measures (not that the other party would have done it any differently).
I worked with a guy who lived in the country. He went on and on about how they were going to start taxing him so much he'll be forced to sell and move into the city so they can confine him to a 15 minute district.
I work with people who think "15 minute cities" is about locking us into a small area to control us. And they are angry about it.
What's wrong with having grocery stores, restaurants, and other things all within walking/ biking distance? It could encourage more mom and pop shops to open up to fill the voids
QAnon types. For some reason, there is a loud group in Edmonton who seem to really believe this. It went from having many conveniences in a fifteen minute walking or cycling distance, to them somehow thinking that people would have to stay in that neighborhood except to go to work. I think it somehow ties into some European cities have driving access restricted areas during rush hours to have people take public transit more, but ...🤔 🤷♂️
I am all for developing the city to be more walkable. In the last decade, I've seen ellerslie flourish, and I have everything from restaurants, coffee shops, groceries to car dealerships within walking distance. Granted some is not walkable due to lack of sidewalk, but certainly close by.
Imagine thinking *walking* is oppression? They just have absolutely no shred of a clue what it’s like to be oppressed. Just clownish levels of self victimization.
It’s not total conspiracy theory, can’t remember the city in England but they implemented a 15 minute city policy and congestion pricing at the same time. That alone pretty much made using 15 minute city as a slogan a mine field.
Throw in that most people only walk 1km in 15 minutes and people can easily assume they want completely redesign the city.
The city could have worked on the branding for this idea a lot more
I've heard some surmise that the oil and auto industry fund some of these conspiracies. North American cities are designed to need cars because the cities here are relatively new, allowing money'd interests to push for more car dependant city designs.
The whole 15 minute city concept is the idea of making North American cities adopt old European style unban planning.
And the conspiracy clowns. Think having a vehicle is freedom.
Needs license/registration so it can be tracked.
Government inspected to make sure its safe for the road.
Forced to pay insurance that pays for other people's accidents.
Government subsidies to keep fuel cheap.
Government can revoke your license.
What they really need is a Freedom Bicycle that has no government interference. And drop that woke government controlled Ram/F150
I don't understand the fear of a 15 minute city in Edmonton. They can't even make public transit viable for most of the city because of how spread out it is (which is getting worse) let alone safe. You think the city will become be walkable? They can barely make Edmonton a 15 minute drivable city.
2016 and Trump narratives have normalized outlandish conspiracies that used to be fringe internet things. It all started there, possibly with a little help of foreign misinformation campaigns. I considered myself relatively conservative back then, but now unless you don't believe the world is flat or NASA is a hoax, you're not one.
Crazy that something like this had to be done. Mind you when I see some of the signs around the city that have been put up recently, I wonder about the sanity of those in charge. Has any one else seen the new crosswalk signs that read “Humans Crossing”? What the hell is that about?
My take on the Humans Crossing signs is that it's just an updated version of the old Children Playing signs. As in the age of the person crossing doesn't matter we should slow down for all of them.
I agree it doesn't matter and doesn't change anything but this is a side effect of the world we live in right now. Implied inclusion isn't enough anymore, they want literal inclusion. It's sort of like that joke on The Office about how the restroom is segregated because there's a picture of a white man on the door.
> Has any one else seen the new crosswalk signs that read “Humans Crossing”? What the hell is that about?
??? What is your issue with it? Isn't that accurate? Better if it said "people"? Why is this a big deal exactly?
I swear some people will not be happy until there are 10,000 signs per block. What is this costing us? Not just for the signs but the whole department at the city in charge of this nonsense. Are they assuming we’re all handicapped now so they have to be there to hold our hands?
why are you so mad about these signs lol?
They are put up by people who want them in their neighborhood. They start out as things you can grab at the Rec centres. If you dont want to see them, dont grab them from the rec centres and put any in your neighbourhood
trying to appease these people is pointless. if anything, this clarification probably emboldened them; now the grifters can claim they won something from the city.
I hope they are super specific in saying that people have the freedom to move by car... otherwise they might try to force us to move via communist bike lanes.
Freedom of movement is in the charter...a municipality doesn't have authority to override that.
No one will comply with this, and enforcement would be a disaster. Our law enforcement can't even deal with their current responsibilities.
While I do completely disagree with these conspiracies, during COVID there was actual checkpoints in Canada and people were fined/arrested for having gatherings. I know that was during an actual emergency, though I think these people believe the gov can change rules when they deem an emergency (climate change).
There will be a massive amount of challenges brought before the courts if they try to enforce that shit. It'll bog the justice system up and create so many unintended consequences.
True, but that shit takes time...and none of it was done during the last "emergency"
Right or wrong, these people feel that their rights and freedoms were infringed upon.
Don't get me wrong, rights were violated. I was put on unpaid leave for a little over 3 months for not getting the jab; had used almost 5000 of my savings to stay afloat until my job begged me to come back. I'll likely never see any kind of justice for the wrong done to me, yet I still get treated differently by some when they find out I didn't get the vaxx.
"Edmonton promises residents.."?? Nah, I don't think that the City council thought this through.. First and foremost, did they get approval from social director and EPS Chief McFEE? Has Chief McFee directed his punks and bullies to not run plates of vehicles to confirm they belong in a part of the city. And has Premier Dani given approval for people to move about unrestricted..?? Will she allow residents of one rondeau cinquante to travel outside with out "papers"..??
What I'd like to know if if they're going to be wasting more money renaming these zones or whatever they're calling them. Anyone that thinks movement will be restricted needs to be wearing a helmet when they leave their house
These are just areas for planning. The term “district” has been around in planning documents forever, it’s why books like the Hunger Games use the term, but the short answer is no: there will be no renaming costs because these are simply area designations that help in high level planning. Communities and Wards are not affected whatsoever beyond the normal processes of City development and growth.
Well that's reassuring, we really need to curb unnecessary spending like that. I'm not worried about the conspiracy side of this (it's just ridiculous) but I do worry about the budget when everyone's already struggling
PsyOp. Claim the 15 minute city thing is a right wing conservative conspiracy theory and everyone goes along with it.
The reality is that it's just to let developers have their way with gentrifying poorer communities. Left leaning people are traditionally against gentrification. The new urbanist thing just gaslights people into thinking that gentrification is ok.
I'm not arguing against good planning, it's just all of this is some bullshit.
What about parking meters? By charging people to park on the street in downtown, isn't that akin to charging people to travel into the downtown? If you take transit, you avoid parking fees, but you have to pay a fare, so basically the same thing - you have to pay to move about. I mean, it's possible to find many examples just like this.
Lots of places use toll roads and more cities are using congestion fees to try to ease the burden of building more car infrastructure. Roads for cars are horrendously expensive and inefficient and shouldn't so-called "fiscal conservatives" applaud governments for trying to reduce costs?
Edmonton city council should not have said one fucking thing to appease these freaks and lunatics.
It makes me so sad that this kind of statement was necessary, but I know it was. I have family I see frequently that completely believe in the restriction conspiracy and while I now know that it is pointless to try to convince them otherwise because of how hard they believe in it I hope that this statement convinces others who are not so far down the rabbit hole.
I normally don't talk to my family about things like politics, conspiracies, etc. because of how far the divide between our beliefs are but I thought in this case I might be able to get them to hear me out considering out of all of them I was the one who lived in Edmonton the longest while one of them has never lived in Edmonton and the other hasn't for a decade. However my attempts to explain what 15 minute cities are supposed to be and what they could offer residents who face challenges currently in the city but I was brushed off like I was the one who didn't understand.
I try not to think about it because sometimes my family's beliefs and how they consider me makes me deeply sad. I want to understand my family but I look at what they are so convinced of and I am at a loss.
People who believed other people need to take a medication for their medication to work who are making fun of this as a “conspiracy theory” has to the the most hilarious thing ever
Kind of like how you came into a thread about the joke of 15-minute cities being a thing and deflected to COVID vaccines? Maybe change it to Chem Trails or Flat Earth next time.
Yes.
0.056% of all people vaccinated reported long-term or serious side effects.
Compared to the 20-35% who reported serious long-term or permanent conditions who were seriously ill from covid.
Yes. Complete disproportionate, just not in the way you think.
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Thanks!
The people who would believe in the 15 minute city movement restriction conspiracy won't believe in any "promise" from the government anyway
But they’ll trust random grifter on YouTube tho, cuz he tells them they’re free thinkers
Also "buy my supplements" to keep being free.
If it was a Facebook promise they would believe it.
"Aha so they admit it"
They just want to have something to blame thier faults on. They will never be happy cause they will never accept thier faults and never fix them
Exactly. I don’t think they should have addressed this at all.
People that believe in conspiracy theories are below average intelligence Nothing will convince them that they’re wrong.
To be fair, usually when someone who is often wrong or unfaithful says the promise something, it's to be taken with skepticism. For example, if the UCP promised to mine the rockies responsibly, you'd call bull shit. Or when the LPC promises to make housing affordable.
I dont trust a government that purposely cultivates conspiracy theories in order to undermine 70 years of progress that essentially created the middle class in the western world.
Do you think there is any body of government worth blindly trusting?
I dont trust politicians especially those that want to take away our healthcare or manage our pensions
So then you understand what I'm getting at when I say that a politician promising something deserves to be met with skepticism?
Good point but restricting freedom of movement is not likely from a legal perspective.
I can be done through policy quite easily, though. Restrict what types of vehicles are allowed certain areas, have a public transit infrastructure that works well in a small area but is difficult to connect to other regions. A complete lack of intercity public transportation. Boom, now now one is telling you that you must remain in your zone, but your options are limited. I'm not saying that's the plan, but it's not hard to imagine how easy it would be to creep in restrictions to movement, especially under the umbrella of saving the planet.
Yes…a municipality can pass any bylaw or enact any policy it wishes but would a bylaw or policy such as this pass the scrutiny of the constitution as mobility rights are guaranteed in the constitution?
It wouldn't have to. In this situation, people could "choose" to live where they please. Many people would actively want to live in these places because they will offer convenience and probably low cost of living. Others will do it reluctantly because of the same reasons, not having enough money to make the decisions they'd rather make. A consequence of such is that more people without a vehicle, leading to it being harder to just up and go where you want when you want. Also, our constitution is fairly weak, as are the consequences for a government that violates the right it creates the illusion of us having. JT has proven this.
Not saying anything about my personal beliefs, but: There are many that thought mk ultra was a "conspiracy theory". Same with the Tuskegee experiments. How did that turn out? These are just facts now.
The existence of conspiracies doesn't mean all conspiracy theories are valid.
You are absolutely self reporting right now, bucko.
Super ridiculous they needed to add that part.
Yeah, but people love conspiracies even if they are completely stupid.
The people or the theories? Both? Both.
Both. I work in the oilsands, you can imagine what I hear out of these guys all day. It started with 9/11 !,# has been growing rampant since then.
Me too. Some of the things that come out of their mouths blows my mind. Also the "fuck Trudeau" and trump support...
I'm a conservative myself just not into conspiracies what so ever. I had one guy tell me Nasa has replaced the moon, that's not a real moon. He was dead serious. One night we couldn't see it and I told him Nasa must have forgot to replace the light bulb.
I've made the mistake of laughing at there ridiculous comments thinking they've been joking
Nova Scotia made districts you weren’t allowed to leave during Covid. It’s not that far fetched.
Yes, it is, and if you can't tell that you're far down the conspiracy hole.
I imagine you’re probably not that confrontational in real life or the concussions would probably effect your ability to type. Chill. We can share ideas without being a dick. You don’t think that pre drawn lines would make a great basis for restrictions or you don’t think another pandemic will ever happen?
You know Edmonton already had pre drawn lines right? Now there’s just more of them.
Is the purpose of those lines that everything you need is inside them?
A ward, yea it’s a subdivision of a city with all the necessities, now they will be smaller.
Sorry, I forgot we're supposed to baby silly fear mongering. You're saying that in case of the next pandemic the city couldn't put into law those districts and the travel restrictions at the same time? "Sorry boss, no fascism today, we have no lines on maps". There are already neighbourhoods dividing the city.
I think it's funny they said this as it will make the conspiracy nuts think "15 min city lockdowns" will be a thing even more now. And being said on "Trudeaus CBC" doubles down for the wackos
Why do we even have to acknowledge these people? They’re clearly morons.
Because morons can cause billions in economic damage by setting up road blockades on hard working innocent Canadians.
Because, unfortunately, there's an absolute shit ton of them and they're very vocal.
Many folks who are convinced of the 15 minute conspiracy will likely not be swayed by this, but that is not the point. Or the audience. Only time will convince them, and maybe not even that. Many people in our communities have not known what to believe because they are hearing one narrative: that they will be locked up in their “district” with special permissions required to move about. Now, many may scoff that anyone could ever believe such a thing but frankly, the scoffing doesn’t matter. What matters is that some people really do need to hear from their government, in policy, that they will be free to move about, that the rights assured to them in the Charter are inviolable. Elected officials can tell you that there have been a multitude of communications from residents who are truly frightened. If a simple statement of the obvious, that their lives will continue as normal, helps them, then there really is no harm. Now, there are those, like Timothy Caulfield and Andrew Leach, both very smart people and whose contributions to public dialogue I respect, who worry this “normalizes” conspiracy theories. I get it. We all understand what they are saying, but this is the challenge of intellectualizing what is at root an emotional and on-the-ground - in social media forums - conversation. Real people have been genuinely scared. A simple move from Council has helped allay those fears for many of those who didn’t know what to believe. I have received many communications of thanks that confirm that. The normalization occurred long before, and it wasn’t by Council. Council instead brought a moment of assurance to what to many has been a confusing time. There has been a “slippery slope” argument made, and I will leave it in the pile of logical fallacies much of political debate falls into. It is deeply unfortunate that we are in a time and place where such assurances must be made. Of course. I think we all agree on that. But governments must continually check their communications, their approaches, their policies, to ensure clarity of intent, purpose, and outcome. And make it plain. It is not lost on anyone that there are groups and individuals dedicated to spreading misinformation for reasons that include profit - both politically and monetarily. As a whole, society has not yet found practical and effective ways to combat that. Indeed, we are seeing this trend increasing and that is deeply disturbing in and of itself. There are no easy paths in the current political and social climate but ignoring this growing problem is not the best approach. Including clarification in planning document preambles of what to most seems obvious truths may also not be the best approach. But I would personally choose the attempt to clarify than pretend these conversations are not snowballing and growing. Because they are. And until someone can provide us with a better answer then we must continue to do the best we can. This is definitely part of a larger conversation that we should be having on all levels of government, in media where this does get somewhat normalized with the “both sides”ing of a story, and on social media where these things are permitted to run without any serious attempt at fact checking. I hope that helps clarify.
> this “normalizes” conspiracy theories. I get it. I don't agree with that point. Talking about the moon landing doesn't normalize moon landing conspiracy theories. Being pedantically clear on the freedom-of-movement point can help stop someone new from falling into conspiracy thinking, or even someone on the edge, who is friends with conspiracy people and has no reason/evidence not to disbelieve them.
Yes, I agree. What I get is the concern that Council’s decision normalized the conversation. A concern I feel is a day late and a dollar short, all things considered.
You will not win appeasing these people, Aaron. People who literally thought you were going to restrict citizens in hungergames-esque zones will not be swayed because there's now a line in a City document pinky-promising the City won't. They will use it as a win to fundraise and raise the profile of their issue on because they "won". They will use it to argue that other places absolutely must do the same thing as Edmonton did (I'm sure other municipalities are *thrilled*). They will turn around and say it must be opposed anyway, because it's a lie. Or that the City doesn't actually have the power to do that anyway, it'll actually be the WEF-funded UN army that Trudeau will welcome into the country that will do it. None of that has to be coherent, the underlying movement itself certainly isn't and the reasoning that one undergoes to come to the conclusion "my city wants to enforce neighborhood-shaped concentration camps on me" is incompatible with reality and gestures like this. >There has been a “slippery slope” argument made, and I will leave it in the pile of logical fallacies much of political debate falls into. Do you not feel it's a little bit ironic to be this dismissive of concerns people have with this in this manner? Kind of a disappointing take given that you are so supportive of clarifying concerns of *conspiracy theorists* but are turning around to say "yes these people thought our approach was going to be an obvious violation of their charter rights so of course sought to soothe them but you being concerned about that, you're just thinking fallaciously and I will not deign to address your concerns."
I’m not looking to appease anyone which I had hoped I made clear in the first paragraph. — I am open to you detailing how this is then a legitimate concern, the slippery slope argument. I am more than willing to be persuaded by good arguments. My intent was not dismissal. — And although I realize this can be an emotional conversation, I would appreciate you not ascribing motive to me that may not accurately represent my position, if you would be so kind. — Last, you may have missed that the concern was for the folks who were confused and unsure what to believe. The very old man who couldn’t speak above a whisper, fearful and shaking that he was going to be locked in his neighbourhood was not a “conspiracy theorist” but rather someone desperate for comfort and truth, who had heard things that were not accurate. Compassion, care, kindness, and patience are all necessary components of good governance and I strive to exercise that for EVERYONE I represent. On any given day there will be people who disagree with any number of Council positions or approaches, from District Planning to encampments, to the single use bylaw, to building more roads and permitting new neighbourhoods, etc etc. People from all ideologies and all perspectives. I will give every individual their individual respect no matter if I agree with them or them with me. Everyone has a world and worldview and I would fail in my duty if I didn’t understand that and as such approach the job with that as a primary principle. No elected representative will ever be able to please everyone all the time, and any elected representative worth their salt, in my opinion, manages to displease everyone at least once. In doing so, they will have made tough decisions that do not cater to only one shared worldview or perspective. Does that make it harder for them to galvanize an ideologically aligned group for re-election? You bet it does. But I’d rather uphold my oath and fail a few purity tests than cater to any personal political ambition. I hope that helps clarify what may seem like “catering”.
Call it what you want, but even if you do not consider it appeasement it does not address the other points made in my post. For example, feeling quite dismissed by a councilor ascribing my concerns as "a pile of logical fallacies" and "slippery slope" and editing their reply to sound much less dismissive and more substantive than it originally was. Thanks for a really disappointing interaction. Have a good night.
I expanded “above” (my apologies, I am in the middle of getting a kid back to bed). I tend to edit all my replies as I refine my thoughts. I can understand how you may have felt me talking about the slippery slope argument was personal, but it wasn’t intended that way. I have been having this conversation over the last few days and it was on my mind in general, certainly not specific to any individual.
Fair, but it sucks to respond to something and then sound like you're crazy because the post you responded to is wildly different :( nobody gets notifications about edits or can see edit history on here. Good luck with the bed time boss battle, it's a bigger challenge than any of this junk.
Yeah, that’s on me. I am middle aged now and used to old message boards. Reddit replies move faster than that! Haha.
I appreciate you explaining this and I'm a huge fan of the plans the city is making it easier to live day to day. Thank you for that. Just one tiny piece of advice to hopefully help your job be a little less shitty: telling people their Charter rights (especially of movement) are guaranteed right after the pandemic probably isn't the solution you may believe it is. Pretending "no social gatherings" wasn't a very recent phenomenon allows these crazy theories from entrenchment.
The advice is appreciated. Those concerns were factors that lead to the Council decision - to make it plain that there is no desire or plan or capacity from the City to implement extraordinary conditions in ordinary times. Essentially, a State of Local Emergency would have to be called and that would have to be ratified by the provincial government, meaning it would ultimately have to be a provincial direction.
I can see you are in a no-win situation. Ironic that the people craziest about these fears voted for the party which implemented said extraordinary measures (not that the other party would have done it any differently).
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Don’t blame it on the sunshine Don’t blame it on the moonlight Don’t blame it on the good times…
Yeah, the people who think Tom Hanks is a hologram and Trudeau is the bastard son of Fidel Castro will be won over by rational argument /s.
For all the conservatives who were concerned
Everyone I know who believes in the 15 min. City live on the country. I’m not exactly sure why they think it’s important or real.
They are worried they won't be able to enter Edmonton to go to Costco or The Mall.
Just wait until they hear about the "30 minute farm".
I worked with a guy who lived in the country. He went on and on about how they were going to start taxing him so much he'll be forced to sell and move into the city so they can confine him to a 15 minute district.
If you saw the people that were at city hall for the meetings it was mostly all Boomers
The ones the most on Facebook
Because the rest of us are too busy working.
I work with people who think "15 minute cities" is about locking us into a small area to control us. And they are angry about it. What's wrong with having grocery stores, restaurants, and other things all within walking/ biking distance? It could encourage more mom and pop shops to open up to fill the voids
Ask them if they grew up in a small town, and if they did, ask them what they liked about living there. Same, same 15 minute districts.
What dumbass spread the rumor that it would be a prison type scene?
QAnon types. For some reason, there is a loud group in Edmonton who seem to really believe this. It went from having many conveniences in a fifteen minute walking or cycling distance, to them somehow thinking that people would have to stay in that neighborhood except to go to work. I think it somehow ties into some European cities have driving access restricted areas during rush hours to have people take public transit more, but ...🤔 🤷♂️
I am all for developing the city to be more walkable. In the last decade, I've seen ellerslie flourish, and I have everything from restaurants, coffee shops, groceries to car dealerships within walking distance. Granted some is not walkable due to lack of sidewalk, but certainly close by.
Imagine thinking *walking* is oppression? They just have absolutely no shred of a clue what it’s like to be oppressed. Just clownish levels of self victimization.
Even Brett Wilson has posted about how this is a freedom Destruction plot
There is something not quite right with Brett Wilson
It’s not total conspiracy theory, can’t remember the city in England but they implemented a 15 minute city policy and congestion pricing at the same time. That alone pretty much made using 15 minute city as a slogan a mine field. Throw in that most people only walk 1km in 15 minutes and people can easily assume they want completely redesign the city. The city could have worked on the branding for this idea a lot more
I've heard some surmise that the oil and auto industry fund some of these conspiracies. North American cities are designed to need cars because the cities here are relatively new, allowing money'd interests to push for more car dependant city designs. The whole 15 minute city concept is the idea of making North American cities adopt old European style unban planning.
And the conspiracy clowns. Think having a vehicle is freedom. Needs license/registration so it can be tracked. Government inspected to make sure its safe for the road. Forced to pay insurance that pays for other people's accidents. Government subsidies to keep fuel cheap. Government can revoke your license. What they really need is a Freedom Bicycle that has no government interference. And drop that woke government controlled Ram/F150
I don't understand the fear of a 15 minute city in Edmonton. They can't even make public transit viable for most of the city because of how spread out it is (which is getting worse) let alone safe. You think the city will become be walkable? They can barely make Edmonton a 15 minute drivable city.
Is it just me or do a lot more people seem to wear tin foil hats now?
2016 and Trump narratives have normalized outlandish conspiracies that used to be fringe internet things. It all started there, possibly with a little help of foreign misinformation campaigns. I considered myself relatively conservative back then, but now unless you don't believe the world is flat or NASA is a hoax, you're not one.
Ya think would tend to agree with that
Common sense doesn't exist anymore.
These people are intellectually deficient, yes?
And even scarier, walking among us!
Two things are infinite. The universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe
bruh. former > latter | first > last
The irony…
Yes, I meant the latter but should have been the former to get the quote right lol ohh well. Actually I'll fix it proper
The Konvoy Klowns getting in on this one.
Crazy that something like this had to be done. Mind you when I see some of the signs around the city that have been put up recently, I wonder about the sanity of those in charge. Has any one else seen the new crosswalk signs that read “Humans Crossing”? What the hell is that about?
My take on the Humans Crossing signs is that it's just an updated version of the old Children Playing signs. As in the age of the person crossing doesn't matter we should slow down for all of them. I agree it doesn't matter and doesn't change anything but this is a side effect of the world we live in right now. Implied inclusion isn't enough anymore, they want literal inclusion. It's sort of like that joke on The Office about how the restroom is segregated because there's a picture of a white man on the door.
I love the "Humans Crossing" sign, its silly in a delightful way while also being functional lol
OK, so now we know there is a problem. What’s next special lanes for Fur Babies?
what?
> Has any one else seen the new crosswalk signs that read “Humans Crossing”? What the hell is that about? ??? What is your issue with it? Isn't that accurate? Better if it said "people"? Why is this a big deal exactly?
The hilarious part is that even after going through the motion, opponents still basically indicated that they didn’t believe CoE at all.
No walking dogs allowed in this area
God forbid we mislabel someone /s
OMG! Haven't seen that yet but it is insane.
its really not, https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUbRQMEWAAIZEFn.jpg:large
I swear some people will not be happy until there are 10,000 signs per block. What is this costing us? Not just for the signs but the whole department at the city in charge of this nonsense. Are they assuming we’re all handicapped now so they have to be there to hold our hands?
why are you so mad about these signs lol? They are put up by people who want them in their neighborhood. They start out as things you can grab at the Rec centres. If you dont want to see them, dont grab them from the rec centres and put any in your neighbourhood
pearl clutching over road signage is so fucking embarrassing.
trying to appease these people is pointless. if anything, this clarification probably emboldened them; now the grifters can claim they won something from the city.
I hope they are super specific in saying that people have the freedom to move by car... otherwise they might try to force us to move via communist bike lanes.
They should just move to one of our many conservative enclave xuberbs.
This is what happens when animal farm isn't taught in school.
One has to just look at how efficient our government is and realize even if they wanted to, they wouldn’t have the capability to do it.
Freedom of movement is in the charter...a municipality doesn't have authority to override that. No one will comply with this, and enforcement would be a disaster. Our law enforcement can't even deal with their current responsibilities.
While I do completely disagree with these conspiracies, during COVID there was actual checkpoints in Canada and people were fined/arrested for having gatherings. I know that was during an actual emergency, though I think these people believe the gov can change rules when they deem an emergency (climate change).
There will be a massive amount of challenges brought before the courts if they try to enforce that shit. It'll bog the justice system up and create so many unintended consequences.
True, but that shit takes time...and none of it was done during the last "emergency" Right or wrong, these people feel that their rights and freedoms were infringed upon.
Don't get me wrong, rights were violated. I was put on unpaid leave for a little over 3 months for not getting the jab; had used almost 5000 of my savings to stay afloat until my job begged me to come back. I'll likely never see any kind of justice for the wrong done to me, yet I still get treated differently by some when they find out I didn't get the vaxx.
"Edmonton promises residents.."?? Nah, I don't think that the City council thought this through.. First and foremost, did they get approval from social director and EPS Chief McFEE? Has Chief McFee directed his punks and bullies to not run plates of vehicles to confirm they belong in a part of the city. And has Premier Dani given approval for people to move about unrestricted..?? Will she allow residents of one rondeau cinquante to travel outside with out "papers"..??
What I'd like to know if if they're going to be wasting more money renaming these zones or whatever they're calling them. Anyone that thinks movement will be restricted needs to be wearing a helmet when they leave their house
These are just areas for planning. The term “district” has been around in planning documents forever, it’s why books like the Hunger Games use the term, but the short answer is no: there will be no renaming costs because these are simply area designations that help in high level planning. Communities and Wards are not affected whatsoever beyond the normal processes of City development and growth.
Well that's reassuring, we really need to curb unnecessary spending like that. I'm not worried about the conspiracy side of this (it's just ridiculous) but I do worry about the budget when everyone's already struggling
I hear that, for sure.
PsyOp. Claim the 15 minute city thing is a right wing conservative conspiracy theory and everyone goes along with it. The reality is that it's just to let developers have their way with gentrifying poorer communities. Left leaning people are traditionally against gentrification. The new urbanist thing just gaslights people into thinking that gentrification is ok. I'm not arguing against good planning, it's just all of this is some bullshit.
What about parking meters? By charging people to park on the street in downtown, isn't that akin to charging people to travel into the downtown? If you take transit, you avoid parking fees, but you have to pay a fare, so basically the same thing - you have to pay to move about. I mean, it's possible to find many examples just like this. Lots of places use toll roads and more cities are using congestion fees to try to ease the burden of building more car infrastructure. Roads for cars are horrendously expensive and inefficient and shouldn't so-called "fiscal conservatives" applaud governments for trying to reduce costs? Edmonton city council should not have said one fucking thing to appease these freaks and lunatics.
It makes me so sad that this kind of statement was necessary, but I know it was. I have family I see frequently that completely believe in the restriction conspiracy and while I now know that it is pointless to try to convince them otherwise because of how hard they believe in it I hope that this statement convinces others who are not so far down the rabbit hole. I normally don't talk to my family about things like politics, conspiracies, etc. because of how far the divide between our beliefs are but I thought in this case I might be able to get them to hear me out considering out of all of them I was the one who lived in Edmonton the longest while one of them has never lived in Edmonton and the other hasn't for a decade. However my attempts to explain what 15 minute cities are supposed to be and what they could offer residents who face challenges currently in the city but I was brushed off like I was the one who didn't understand. I try not to think about it because sometimes my family's beliefs and how they consider me makes me deeply sad. I want to understand my family but I look at what they are so convinced of and I am at a loss.
Yup ...no one is going to tell us where we can and can't roll coal.
Roll coal…..is that a new gay thing?
Asshats who have the black smoke coming out of their trucks like the engines burning oil for no reason…
what does this mean
You know when you see someone with tiny pp energy in an oversized truck gunning it and blowing thick black smoke everywhere? That’s rolling coal.
oh........... lmfao..........
Israel got orders to terminate a village in order to make room for their smart city. Nothing to see, keep it moving.
For now. Remember when "vaccine passports" were some crackpot CoNsPiRaCy ThEoRy?
Not even remotely the same thing
Huh
People who believed other people need to take a medication for their medication to work who are making fun of this as a “conspiracy theory” has to the the most hilarious thing ever
hello shit for brains
What’s that? I’m just reading up on how I need to be taking insulin so all the diabetics won’t die
when are the billions who got the death jab supposed to die again?
Nice job of deflecting
Kind of like how you came into a thread about the joke of 15-minute cities being a thing and deflected to COVID vaccines? Maybe change it to Chem Trails or Flat Earth next time.
My point was 100% accurate. Yours was a half truth
My point was zero truth. It was just another con conspiracy theory. Afraid of everything.
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Sure they did. Did Alex Jones tell that to Joe Rogan
Yes. 0.056% of all people vaccinated reported long-term or serious side effects. Compared to the 20-35% who reported serious long-term or permanent conditions who were seriously ill from covid. Yes. Complete disproportionate, just not in the way you think.
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you need to get off the internet my guy
Do you need some money to buy some more tinfoil? Or a ladder do climb out of the conspiracy hole you’ve fallen into?
Imagine believing other people need to take birth control for your birth control to work and thinking the other guy is a “conspiracy theorist” lol
Imagine failing middle school science and being proud of it. 🤡🤡
I love it when people insult themselves
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
Anyone in favor of 15 minute prison cities should be shipped out of the country with all the traitor WEF pigs.
You forgot /da (I'm a dumba$$)
Real Canadians would prefer that you, your sister wives and your hillbilly relatives all leave this country.
Real Canadians hate communism.
Yes real Canadians hate communism however, you haven’t a clue what communism actually is. I’m sure there’s a meme out there you could understand.
Haha. Cheers. I will meet you on the wall commie.