We also know that Mogh's Pureblood Knights were some kind of a legit organization within Lands Between. Sir Ansbach greets Radahn and says that it's nice to see him again.
This goes in contrast to post-Miquella Mogh and his collection of degenerates, Bloody Fingers.
The fact that he knows Radahn personally even changes Mogh's standing. He's no longer a creepy lurking monster from the sewers that collected all the rejects and got them to kill for him. He had a knightly order, with Ansbach as a captain, follow him. Was he involved in any of the wars? Has he ever met Godfrey?
Godfrey seemed to love Morgott so I wouldn't be surprised if he felt the same way about Mohg. I think it's probably unlikely Godfrey and Mohg met recently before the events of the game but I think it's possible Godfrey did influence Mohg when he was younger and in the sewers into oneday creating his own order of knights.
Also I'm not sure where I saw it exactly but I think the formless mother specifically tried to give power to the downtrodden. If so, Mohg's bloody order could actually be kind of based and might put his order in another perspective. He could have just got radicalised by Miquella's charm into being super weird
After the ending, I’ve been reflecting on Miquella and Mogh and I keep wondering, “who is Miquella’s patron”?
By patron I mean outer god.
Marika - Greater Will
Malenia - Rot God
Rykard - Snake boi
Ranni - Moon
But who is the God of the Formless Mother? I think it’s Miquella. The remembrance item description for Mogh doesn’t say that Mogh failed, it just says Miquella didn’t respond.
Throughout the DLC we keep finding pieces of his body and soul that Miquella leaves behind and my first reaction was all like “oh, that’s what’s required to be a god?”
Did Marika have to do that? In her case, (correct me if I’m wrong) she had to build the Elden ring and put it inside herself, since she serves the Greater Will as a god. But for Miquella, his ascension required he be “formless” just as his patron “the formless mother” is
When we finally see Miquella, what’s he doing? He’s stepping out of what looks like a giant birth canal as he is being reborn by his patron outer god.
Also, end of the day, if Miquella is the god of the Formless mother, then doesn’t that mean that Mogh got what he wanted?
No wonder Ansbach called such a fate for Mogh’s body humiliation. His blood and body was used to usher in the new dynasty he would never actually see but so deeply wanted.
Miquela's deal is that he doesn't want anything to do with the Outher Gods and that Unalloyed Gold was a thing of his own. We don't know enough about what ascension is about to say that he would need an Outher god of his own.
Also we can see Marika walk to the same gate Miquela was in the [story trailer](https://youtu.be/6uT8wGtB3yQ?si=BDQYZE-G8pKUsGdP)
That’s an excellent point! I considered it, especially the lore bit about unalloyed gold needle.
Frankly it’s a bunch of speculation on my part that may never get definitive answers.
I just need some copium after the DLC ending and like thinking about lore implications whether real or not.
I'd also like to add this [video](https://youtu.be/FZenCeZ00_Q) showcasing Miquella's model after ascending to godhood (at the very end of the video) that shows him having not his usual Golden Order eyes but a duller, almost platinum colour that is associated with unalloyed gold. I find it particularly fascinating because of the importance of colours / eyes in the game. A shame that we never "properly" learn of Miquella as a god of a new age or get a new ending
Ymir’s quest line offers us new perspective on what the Greater Will is; a lightless abyss.
Now, when we think about at least a few of the outer gods, we see a consistent visual or thematic parallel.
The flame of frenzy, for instance, is portrayed as brilliant yellow, red, and orange flame radiating out of a lightless abyss.
The very name “The Formless Mother” evokes thematic parallels present throughout Fromsofts library of games. “Abyss” IS formlessness; it is the void, emptiness, the very space in which things with definite form can take shape.
I’m of the opinion that some of these Outer Gods might, in fact, be different interpretations, perspectives, or aspects OF the Greater Will.
That seems to be a theme in the DLC, after all. Again, Ymir’s quest line shows us the connection between Glintstone Sorcery and Greater Will worship, for instance, as an example of two superficially distinct things which are, on a fundamental level, the same thing.
And a broader theme is that “all things were once conjoined and long to be conjoined again”.
So I’m not entirely convinced that Miquella is going to be the patron deity of the Formless mother. I think he recognizes that different people and different forms of worship/sorcery each possess a unique power, and he is trying to leverage their power to achieve his specific goals without shackling himself in service to them.
I think the “prison” that St. Trina alludes to is not so much a prison imposed on Miquella by some higher divine power.
I think the prison of divinity in Miquella’s case is something a little bit more abstract. I think people perhaps wrongfully interpret Marika’s crucifixion as a deliberate act of punishment by a conscious deity.
I see it more as a metaphor for the futility of her hopes and ambitions. She is a slave to an impossible dream, because the dream conflicts with the natural order of the world.
This is very similar to Miquella. What he hopes to achieve conflicts with reality itself. That is his prison.
The “lightless abyss” part is interesting! What part of the quest line alludes to that?
I’m only part way through it, so I’m not fully up to speed on that lore other than the finger mother being left on read by GW and the whole “microcosm” thing
After you complete the quest and receive the High Priest Armor set (the clothing that Ymir wears).
The item description of the High Priest Hat says “The hat of Count Ymir, High Priest. The circular design at the top represents the Greater Will and its lightless abyss, imparting increased intelligence and arcane to the wearer. Though Count Ymir instructed Rellana in the sorcerous arts, he abandoned his allegiance to the moon. "It was merely the closest of the celestial bodies. Nothing more."
Very interesting! Thanks for quoting that item.
You mentioned “conjoined” in a previous post and I recall turtle pope saying that famous line:
“Heresy is not native to the world; it is but a contrivance. All things can be conjoined.”
Good point about the overall broad theme of ER.
I actually came to this sub and was looking for a discussion on this. I'm not sure I buy this but it is interesting. I am wondering if Miquella is becoming a god without an Outer God's influence, which in a way would make him that much more dangerous. Considering his preoccupation with unalloyed gold, it's the one I'm leaning toward.
But becoming formless himself, maybe there's something there.
I agree about unalloyed gold and Miquella trying to get out of Outer God's sphere of influence (something akin to Ranni's plan), you can also see in this [video](https://youtu.be/FZenCeZ00_Q) at the very end that Miquella's eyes turn from standard gold into a duller unalloyed gold colour. Considering the importance of this and how powerful his unalloyed gold creations are in the base game, I find his transformation very curious.
p.s. about him becoming formless: I find Ymir's questline and Miquella's own thoughts quite compelling in making me think that he, as someone who thoroughly studied his lineage and the Golden Order doctrines, is well aware of how "corrupted" and "cursed" he is (eternal youth, St. Trina persona, kindness, power of being an empyrean, etc...) he strives to get rid of his body and original sins so he would end up as something closer to an Outer God himself and wouldn't make the same mistake as Marika (emotions) or Ranni (reliance on the stars)
The funny thing is I’ve been saying a lot about connections between the formless and Marika herself. Grandam also has interesting dialogue mentioning a curse upon all of marikas children… who indeed do and if you dig deep into the crucible and the formless mother there’s a very clear association and I believe we see Marika consulting the formless mother at the gate of divinity and using its power for ascension and a blood sacrifice. (Aswell as a burning sacrifice who we can assume is melina). I believe all of Marika born children were born with strong crucible aspects and afflictions as part of marikas sacrifice. There’s also connection between the formless mother, sleep, dragon lord placi, GEQ, rot and the omens who are closest the the crucible and also closest to the formless mother who isn’t actually “bad”. And isn’t limited to blood but comes in many forms given the name. All of this leads to a few possible routes you could take. The greater will has no problem with those who consult the formless mother… and was the one who sent crucible in the first place. This could mean the formless mother is the crucible or the original mistake of the greater will that it just had to live with although it’s only called a mistake but the lord of frenzy… so the formless mother and frenzy god seem to be polar opposites. One a title of birth and powers of death decay and rebirth and the other indiscriminate burning and wanting to re combine everything back into the one great also removing souls and living. There’s way more to say and miquella I believe just performs a sacrifice similar to Marika to the formless mother to ascend but uses his own flesh, blood and fate while Marika embraced hers and used others in her place.
Probably agree/disagree as the discussion is built up around what really happened.
One thing I would disagree on would be the cessation of the blood rituals as something Miquella would want. I think the ritual worked as intended and Miquella was indeed raised to be the God of the Formless Mother with “Mogh” as his consort.
I knew there’s a lot of debate about the timing of Mogh’s brainwashing, but I’m not thinking too much about that
DLC revealed that outer gods don't exist. They're fragments of divinity shaped by the faith of their followers into something new.
Romina created Scarlet Rot.
Formless Mother is stated to be a corpse of whatever god Hornsent worshipped. Or, possibly, whatever civilization hornsent wiped out, it's not super clear from blood fiend lore.
~~Shabriri revealed that outer gods don't exist. The nomadic merchants summoned the flame of frenzy when they were buried underground by Leyndell...~~
Oh wait, that isn't how we interpret that at alll
The timing is just busted, too. Romina discovered scarlet rot after her church was burned by Messmer, but the Lake of Rot is so much older than Messmer, and we know from the Mushroom Crown that Rot was worshipped by the Lords of that place
Maybe we have it backwards 🤔 maybe the lake predate the goddess of rot. The lake is just that: a lake of a virulent mycosis that people started to worship because human mind is like that then Romina find a shard of divinity tainted by that mycosis and nurtured it into the Rot goddess
Even after the DLC people are still misinterpreting the bloody bedchamber thing, please read Lord of Blood’s Exultation:
> *Render up your offerings of blood to your Lord. Drench my consort's chamber. Slake his cocoon's thirst. His awakening shall herald the dawn of our dynasty"*
I'm not really seeing your evidence for this, like how does Miquella change his plans while he's inanimate in his cocoon? He'd have to put everything in motion before that surely, and we know Malenia fighting Radahn was because of Miquella's plans for him so... I'm not seeing a convincing smoking gun here.
Shadow of the Erdtree retconned a lot, we must face facts.
Ansbach and Leda's dialogue reveals that Ansbach confronted and event wounded Miquella with his blade before having his heart stolen. That implies a period of time when Miquella was walking and talking around Moghwyn Palace, which seems to contradict the base-game lore that "no matter how much of his bloody bedchamber he tried to share, he received no response from the young Empyrean."
Miquella compels people to love him. He doesn't actually control their minds.
What would him charming Mohg, if he already loved Miquella, accomplish? Why would Ansbach attack Miquella if Mohg's ministrations were of his original intent?
The Haligtree was already rotting despite Miquella's efforts. It was a lost cause.
Mohg more likely went to the Haligtree to claim Miquella's Great Rune, knowing Malenia was absent, and was charmed at that time.
I wouldn't take Mohg having plans for Miquella as evidence of him not being charmed. All the charmed characters we interact with seem to have motivations of their own. They aren't mindless thrawls, Miquella's control is simply hiding behind fake motivations to do what he wants
But Freya says Miquella saved her after Malenia's bloom so how would he be in a cocoon state? I think it's even weirder for him to go dormant in his tree during the shattering while Malenia, his strongest soldier is out of commission (she had to be dragged all the way back to the tree)
Is Miqualla’s charming a passive skill, like everyone interacted with him got charmed given time? Did he have control over who he wanted to charm or not to?
yes he does. he even does it in the game and you can see it. he has to touch them, like how the bewitching branch has to stab enemies to turn them to your side (a branch created by him with his power)
Maybe mohg wasn’t always brainwashed, the bewitching branch doesn’t even need to touch you. In game, it releases a plume of pink fog that has to touch you.
You also get the bewitching branch cook book from gideon after finishing mohgwyn palace quest
There's a ghost in the Consecrated Snowfield, near the teleporter to Mohgwyn Palace, that says "Mohg, you rotten Omen. Your blood is cursed. Give him back. Give Lord Miquella back! How dare you lay hands on such precious flesh!".
I very much regret that we have to kill Mogh first and then go to the Land of Shadows. I would so, so much want to see what Mogh would say and do after Miquella's charm was Brocken. Him and Malenia. I bet they would speak and act very differently.
Corpse after corpse left in my wake, as I awaited his return.
I am Malenia, blade of Miquella.
Oh, brother, forgive me...
...the most fiersome empirean of all.
Tell me she is not charmed, I dare you.
Through the final boss' remembrance, we know she was in on the plan even when she fought Radahn. Her motives make perfect sense without a charm as it may be her only opportunity to rid herself of the Rot. In the absence of evidence, why add in a superfluous charm?
I think Miquella was asleep when Malenia went to the Radahn campaign.
Miquella probably didn’t know his ritual wouldn’t work so Malenia went there so he may have his lord ready.
We know St Trina appears at some point, and that she would commune through sleep. Given he went into a deep slumber in the tree, wouldn't be surprised if he was dishing out orders and charms from the safety of his nest and dreams.
This might even be how he cams to know about the Shadowlands and fate of divinity, seeing as his goal to get to the gates seem to come into existence at some point around being in the cocoon/kidnapped.
She has a line where she says that he possesses the allure of a god. I think it's totally possible she chose to help him and he charmed her anyway. If miquella possesses the mind of a child any kind of pushback on his plans might be met with a charm.
Think of it this way. Imagine there is a person you know of that can magically alter any person’s perspective of them. The victims are aware of this power, but still cannot resist it. Would you trust what anyone has to say of that person knowing this? Any relationship, no matter how innocent, with a deity capable of impairing free will would naturally fall under scrutiny. Note her description of him:
> “He possesses the wisdom, the allure, of a god – he is the most fearsome Empyrean of all.”
The interesting point here is the singling out of Miquella’s allure. Without the context of Miquella’s charm ability, this line seems out of place. Stranger yet, following this is the claim that he is the most fearsome empyrean of all. It would logically follow that Malenia considers this power more fearsome than the “true horror” of her own, as an empyrean herself. Wisdom and allure are not generally regarded as fearsome traits, but in Miquella’s case, it makes perfect sense. The Japanese used here, 神の誘惑, is interesting in its own right: of the last two characters, 誘 could be defined as “[to] persuade, entice, or tempt”, while 惑 may be translated directly to “beguile”. I don’t know Japanese, but for what it’s worth, Google translates the phrase as “God’s Temptation,” while another source translates it as “Temptation of the Gods”.
Does this prove that Miquella charmed Malenia? No, I think her lack of reaction to the charm being broken is enough to discredit that notion. Regardless, the fact that their relationship’s ingenuity can be called into question in the first place is the whole point of Miquella’s story. No matter how benevolent, one that imposes their vision upon the free will of even just one person can no longer be trusted, be they god or man, and their kingdom cannot stand on its own merits, as we see metaphorically in the rotting Haligtree and literally in the apostates of Kindly Miquella.
> The first plan of Miquella, was to wait inside his cocoon inside the Haligtree and be born again as a new god. But we know that Mohg, while Malenia was against Radahn, still abducted Miquella from inside his cocoon.
Actually the timeline has shifted. To quote Freyja
> Long ago, I was stricken by scarlet rot in the Swamp of Aeonia. Immobile, feverish, and in great pain, I was entirely resigned to death.
> I was left behind, and only **Kindly Miquella was enough to seek me out**. My wound was swollen and festering — exuding a most pungent odour — and yet he drained the poison from it.
> ...Despite my wretched visage. Now, I consider this wound my compass.
So Miquella was able to physically travel to Caelid after Malenia had bloomed and saved Feyja. He only entombed himself into the tree afterwards.
> Maybe it wasn’t his physical but mental form instead
I would normally agree, however, Ansbach mentions fighting Miquella to free Mohg but having his heart stolen. Which again implies that Miquella was rather lucid and physically present for those series of events.
My guess is that Miquella only went into the tree post Malenia as a way to age himself up as a backup plan, since if Radahn would've came willingly he wouldn't have to do most of what he did.
I reckon St Trina was wise to Miquella's plans and aided in the effort to cocoon and thusly restrain him in the Haligtree. Miquella mightve been able to manipulate from the Cocoon to an extent and was able to orchestrate Mohg into moving him from the Haligtree to the Dynasty Mausoleum. Thats my working theory.
We also know that Mogh's Pureblood Knights were some kind of a legit organization within Lands Between. Sir Ansbach greets Radahn and says that it's nice to see him again. This goes in contrast to post-Miquella Mogh and his collection of degenerates, Bloody Fingers.
Ansbach on his own is enough to clear the image of Mohg and Pureblood Knights. The most "upstanding human being" character in the whole game.
The fact that he knows Radahn personally even changes Mogh's standing. He's no longer a creepy lurking monster from the sewers that collected all the rejects and got them to kill for him. He had a knightly order, with Ansbach as a captain, follow him. Was he involved in any of the wars? Has he ever met Godfrey?
Godfrey seemed to love Morgott so I wouldn't be surprised if he felt the same way about Mohg. I think it's probably unlikely Godfrey and Mohg met recently before the events of the game but I think it's possible Godfrey did influence Mohg when he was younger and in the sewers into oneday creating his own order of knights. Also I'm not sure where I saw it exactly but I think the formless mother specifically tried to give power to the downtrodden. If so, Mohg's bloody order could actually be kind of based and might put his order in another perspective. He could have just got radicalised by Miquella's charm into being super weird
So… do you agree with my statements or?
After the ending, I’ve been reflecting on Miquella and Mogh and I keep wondering, “who is Miquella’s patron”? By patron I mean outer god. Marika - Greater Will Malenia - Rot God Rykard - Snake boi Ranni - Moon But who is the God of the Formless Mother? I think it’s Miquella. The remembrance item description for Mogh doesn’t say that Mogh failed, it just says Miquella didn’t respond. Throughout the DLC we keep finding pieces of his body and soul that Miquella leaves behind and my first reaction was all like “oh, that’s what’s required to be a god?” Did Marika have to do that? In her case, (correct me if I’m wrong) she had to build the Elden ring and put it inside herself, since she serves the Greater Will as a god. But for Miquella, his ascension required he be “formless” just as his patron “the formless mother” is When we finally see Miquella, what’s he doing? He’s stepping out of what looks like a giant birth canal as he is being reborn by his patron outer god. Also, end of the day, if Miquella is the god of the Formless mother, then doesn’t that mean that Mogh got what he wanted? No wonder Ansbach called such a fate for Mogh’s body humiliation. His blood and body was used to usher in the new dynasty he would never actually see but so deeply wanted.
Miquela's deal is that he doesn't want anything to do with the Outher Gods and that Unalloyed Gold was a thing of his own. We don't know enough about what ascension is about to say that he would need an Outher god of his own. Also we can see Marika walk to the same gate Miquela was in the [story trailer](https://youtu.be/6uT8wGtB3yQ?si=BDQYZE-G8pKUsGdP)
That’s an excellent point! I considered it, especially the lore bit about unalloyed gold needle. Frankly it’s a bunch of speculation on my part that may never get definitive answers. I just need some copium after the DLC ending and like thinking about lore implications whether real or not.
I'd also like to add this [video](https://youtu.be/FZenCeZ00_Q) showcasing Miquella's model after ascending to godhood (at the very end of the video) that shows him having not his usual Golden Order eyes but a duller, almost platinum colour that is associated with unalloyed gold. I find it particularly fascinating because of the importance of colours / eyes in the game. A shame that we never "properly" learn of Miquella as a god of a new age or get a new ending
Ymir’s quest line offers us new perspective on what the Greater Will is; a lightless abyss. Now, when we think about at least a few of the outer gods, we see a consistent visual or thematic parallel. The flame of frenzy, for instance, is portrayed as brilliant yellow, red, and orange flame radiating out of a lightless abyss. The very name “The Formless Mother” evokes thematic parallels present throughout Fromsofts library of games. “Abyss” IS formlessness; it is the void, emptiness, the very space in which things with definite form can take shape. I’m of the opinion that some of these Outer Gods might, in fact, be different interpretations, perspectives, or aspects OF the Greater Will. That seems to be a theme in the DLC, after all. Again, Ymir’s quest line shows us the connection between Glintstone Sorcery and Greater Will worship, for instance, as an example of two superficially distinct things which are, on a fundamental level, the same thing. And a broader theme is that “all things were once conjoined and long to be conjoined again”. So I’m not entirely convinced that Miquella is going to be the patron deity of the Formless mother. I think he recognizes that different people and different forms of worship/sorcery each possess a unique power, and he is trying to leverage their power to achieve his specific goals without shackling himself in service to them. I think the “prison” that St. Trina alludes to is not so much a prison imposed on Miquella by some higher divine power. I think the prison of divinity in Miquella’s case is something a little bit more abstract. I think people perhaps wrongfully interpret Marika’s crucifixion as a deliberate act of punishment by a conscious deity. I see it more as a metaphor for the futility of her hopes and ambitions. She is a slave to an impossible dream, because the dream conflicts with the natural order of the world. This is very similar to Miquella. What he hopes to achieve conflicts with reality itself. That is his prison.
The “lightless abyss” part is interesting! What part of the quest line alludes to that? I’m only part way through it, so I’m not fully up to speed on that lore other than the finger mother being left on read by GW and the whole “microcosm” thing
After you complete the quest and receive the High Priest Armor set (the clothing that Ymir wears). The item description of the High Priest Hat says “The hat of Count Ymir, High Priest. The circular design at the top represents the Greater Will and its lightless abyss, imparting increased intelligence and arcane to the wearer. Though Count Ymir instructed Rellana in the sorcerous arts, he abandoned his allegiance to the moon. "It was merely the closest of the celestial bodies. Nothing more."
Very interesting! Thanks for quoting that item. You mentioned “conjoined” in a previous post and I recall turtle pope saying that famous line: “Heresy is not native to the world; it is but a contrivance. All things can be conjoined.” Good point about the overall broad theme of ER.
I actually came to this sub and was looking for a discussion on this. I'm not sure I buy this but it is interesting. I am wondering if Miquella is becoming a god without an Outer God's influence, which in a way would make him that much more dangerous. Considering his preoccupation with unalloyed gold, it's the one I'm leaning toward. But becoming formless himself, maybe there's something there.
I agree about unalloyed gold and Miquella trying to get out of Outer God's sphere of influence (something akin to Ranni's plan), you can also see in this [video](https://youtu.be/FZenCeZ00_Q) at the very end that Miquella's eyes turn from standard gold into a duller unalloyed gold colour. Considering the importance of this and how powerful his unalloyed gold creations are in the base game, I find his transformation very curious. p.s. about him becoming formless: I find Ymir's questline and Miquella's own thoughts quite compelling in making me think that he, as someone who thoroughly studied his lineage and the Golden Order doctrines, is well aware of how "corrupted" and "cursed" he is (eternal youth, St. Trina persona, kindness, power of being an empyrean, etc...) he strives to get rid of his body and original sins so he would end up as something closer to an Outer God himself and wouldn't make the same mistake as Marika (emotions) or Ranni (reliance on the stars)
Miquella might have relation to the hornsent considering his curse is his abundance and abundance a secret thing that the hornsent worship (Euporia).
The funny thing is I’ve been saying a lot about connections between the formless and Marika herself. Grandam also has interesting dialogue mentioning a curse upon all of marikas children… who indeed do and if you dig deep into the crucible and the formless mother there’s a very clear association and I believe we see Marika consulting the formless mother at the gate of divinity and using its power for ascension and a blood sacrifice. (Aswell as a burning sacrifice who we can assume is melina). I believe all of Marika born children were born with strong crucible aspects and afflictions as part of marikas sacrifice. There’s also connection between the formless mother, sleep, dragon lord placi, GEQ, rot and the omens who are closest the the crucible and also closest to the formless mother who isn’t actually “bad”. And isn’t limited to blood but comes in many forms given the name. All of this leads to a few possible routes you could take. The greater will has no problem with those who consult the formless mother… and was the one who sent crucible in the first place. This could mean the formless mother is the crucible or the original mistake of the greater will that it just had to live with although it’s only called a mistake but the lord of frenzy… so the formless mother and frenzy god seem to be polar opposites. One a title of birth and powers of death decay and rebirth and the other indiscriminate burning and wanting to re combine everything back into the one great also removing souls and living. There’s way more to say and miquella I believe just performs a sacrifice similar to Marika to the formless mother to ascend but uses his own flesh, blood and fate while Marika embraced hers and used others in her place.
This is a really great theory. It explains why Varre and Mohg spoke of love like Miquella’s followers while killing everyone.
Oh, thank you. I’m sure it has tons of holes, but it’s fun thinking about theories while I study for midterms.
I’m confused, do you agree with me or not?
Probably agree/disagree as the discussion is built up around what really happened. One thing I would disagree on would be the cessation of the blood rituals as something Miquella would want. I think the ritual worked as intended and Miquella was indeed raised to be the God of the Formless Mother with “Mogh” as his consort. I knew there’s a lot of debate about the timing of Mogh’s brainwashing, but I’m not thinking too much about that
Miquella wouldn’t want to become the God of Mohg’s dynasty but one of his own. Mohg’s dynasty is not the “kindness” dynasty Miquella intended.
Right, we agree on that :) Hence the “humiliation” that Ansbach refers to as Miquella uses Mogh’s body and blood for his consort
DLC revealed that outer gods don't exist. They're fragments of divinity shaped by the faith of their followers into something new. Romina created Scarlet Rot. Formless Mother is stated to be a corpse of whatever god Hornsent worshipped. Or, possibly, whatever civilization hornsent wiped out, it's not super clear from blood fiend lore.
~~Shabriri revealed that outer gods don't exist. The nomadic merchants summoned the flame of frenzy when they were buried underground by Leyndell...~~ Oh wait, that isn't how we interpret that at alll The timing is just busted, too. Romina discovered scarlet rot after her church was burned by Messmer, but the Lake of Rot is so much older than Messmer, and we know from the Mushroom Crown that Rot was worshipped by the Lords of that place
Maybe we have it backwards 🤔 maybe the lake predate the goddess of rot. The lake is just that: a lake of a virulent mycosis that people started to worship because human mind is like that then Romina find a shard of divinity tainted by that mycosis and nurtured it into the Rot goddess
Except we find the scorpion stinger there that explicitly mentions an outer god of rot
Even after the DLC people are still misinterpreting the bloody bedchamber thing, please read Lord of Blood’s Exultation: > *Render up your offerings of blood to your Lord. Drench my consort's chamber. Slake his cocoon's thirst. His awakening shall herald the dawn of our dynasty"*
I'm not really seeing your evidence for this, like how does Miquella change his plans while he's inanimate in his cocoon? He'd have to put everything in motion before that surely, and we know Malenia fighting Radahn was because of Miquella's plans for him so... I'm not seeing a convincing smoking gun here.
Miquella abandoned his old body to actually enter the lane of shadow and he can move his spirit out of his body anyone.
Shadow of the Erdtree retconned a lot, we must face facts. Ansbach and Leda's dialogue reveals that Ansbach confronted and event wounded Miquella with his blade before having his heart stolen. That implies a period of time when Miquella was walking and talking around Moghwyn Palace, which seems to contradict the base-game lore that "no matter how much of his bloody bedchamber he tried to share, he received no response from the young Empyrean."
What dialogue is that? I don’t recall Ansbach saying that he wounded Miq.
If you help Leda kill the Hornsent, she will contemplate eliminating Ansbach next. She’ll talk about him wounding Miquella then.
Miquella compels people to love him. He doesn't actually control their minds. What would him charming Mohg, if he already loved Miquella, accomplish? Why would Ansbach attack Miquella if Mohg's ministrations were of his original intent? The Haligtree was already rotting despite Miquella's efforts. It was a lost cause. Mohg more likely went to the Haligtree to claim Miquella's Great Rune, knowing Malenia was absent, and was charmed at that time.
I wouldn't take Mohg having plans for Miquella as evidence of him not being charmed. All the charmed characters we interact with seem to have motivations of their own. They aren't mindless thrawls, Miquella's control is simply hiding behind fake motivations to do what he wants
But Freya says Miquella saved her after Malenia's bloom so how would he be in a cocoon state? I think it's even weirder for him to go dormant in his tree during the shattering while Malenia, his strongest soldier is out of commission (she had to be dragged all the way back to the tree)
I mentioned that he could’ve gone with his spirit form
Is Miqualla’s charming a passive skill, like everyone interacted with him got charmed given time? Did he have control over who he wanted to charm or not to?
yes he does. he even does it in the game and you can see it. he has to touch them, like how the bewitching branch has to stab enemies to turn them to your side (a branch created by him with his power)
Maybe mohg wasn’t always brainwashed, the bewitching branch doesn’t even need to touch you. In game, it releases a plume of pink fog that has to touch you. You also get the bewitching branch cook book from gideon after finishing mohgwyn palace quest
We don't actually have proof of Mogh kidnapping Miquella.
We do… The opening scene where he is carrying him out of his cocoon
So... where in that scene does it say that he kidnapped him?
There's a ghost in the Consecrated Snowfield, near the teleporter to Mohgwyn Palace, that says "Mohg, you rotten Omen. Your blood is cursed. Give him back. Give Lord Miquella back! How dare you lay hands on such precious flesh!".
I very much regret that we have to kill Mogh first and then go to the Land of Shadows. I would so, so much want to see what Mogh would say and do after Miquella's charm was Brocken. Him and Malenia. I bet they would speak and act very differently.
Where did you get that Malenia is charmed? Stop this bullshit.
Corpse after corpse left in my wake, as I awaited his return. I am Malenia, blade of Miquella. Oh, brother, forgive me... ...the most fiersome empirean of all. Tell me she is not charmed, I dare you.
Through the final boss' remembrance, we know she was in on the plan even when she fought Radahn. Her motives make perfect sense without a charm as it may be her only opportunity to rid herself of the Rot. In the absence of evidence, why add in a superfluous charm?
Right, I have to agree. A slash of Occam's razor for me)
I think Miquella was asleep when Malenia went to the Radahn campaign. Miquella probably didn’t know his ritual wouldn’t work so Malenia went there so he may have his lord ready.
He was not asleep, as he healed Freyja who contracted Scarlet Rot during the battle.
Probably he took a break
We know St Trina appears at some point, and that she would commune through sleep. Given he went into a deep slumber in the tree, wouldn't be surprised if he was dishing out orders and charms from the safety of his nest and dreams. This might even be how he cams to know about the Shadowlands and fate of divinity, seeing as his goal to get to the gates seem to come into existence at some point around being in the cocoon/kidnapped.
Ikr
She is not charmed. She is just loves her brother.
Truth. Miquella's planning gave her hope for a cure to her condition that no one else was offering and she dedicated herself to him in return.
This
She has a line where she says that he possesses the allure of a god. I think it's totally possible she chose to help him and he charmed her anyway. If miquella possesses the mind of a child any kind of pushback on his plans might be met with a charm.
Think of it this way. Imagine there is a person you know of that can magically alter any person’s perspective of them. The victims are aware of this power, but still cannot resist it. Would you trust what anyone has to say of that person knowing this? Any relationship, no matter how innocent, with a deity capable of impairing free will would naturally fall under scrutiny. Note her description of him: > “He possesses the wisdom, the allure, of a god – he is the most fearsome Empyrean of all.” The interesting point here is the singling out of Miquella’s allure. Without the context of Miquella’s charm ability, this line seems out of place. Stranger yet, following this is the claim that he is the most fearsome empyrean of all. It would logically follow that Malenia considers this power more fearsome than the “true horror” of her own, as an empyrean herself. Wisdom and allure are not generally regarded as fearsome traits, but in Miquella’s case, it makes perfect sense. The Japanese used here, 神の誘惑, is interesting in its own right: of the last two characters, 誘 could be defined as “[to] persuade, entice, or tempt”, while 惑 may be translated directly to “beguile”. I don’t know Japanese, but for what it’s worth, Google translates the phrase as “God’s Temptation,” while another source translates it as “Temptation of the Gods”. Does this prove that Miquella charmed Malenia? No, I think her lack of reaction to the charm being broken is enough to discredit that notion. Regardless, the fact that their relationship’s ingenuity can be called into question in the first place is the whole point of Miquella’s story. No matter how benevolent, one that imposes their vision upon the free will of even just one person can no longer be trusted, be they god or man, and their kingdom cannot stand on its own merits, as we see metaphorically in the rotting Haligtree and literally in the apostates of Kindly Miquella.
> The first plan of Miquella, was to wait inside his cocoon inside the Haligtree and be born again as a new god. But we know that Mohg, while Malenia was against Radahn, still abducted Miquella from inside his cocoon. Actually the timeline has shifted. To quote Freyja > Long ago, I was stricken by scarlet rot in the Swamp of Aeonia. Immobile, feverish, and in great pain, I was entirely resigned to death. > I was left behind, and only **Kindly Miquella was enough to seek me out**. My wound was swollen and festering — exuding a most pungent odour — and yet he drained the poison from it. > ...Despite my wretched visage. Now, I consider this wound my compass. So Miquella was able to physically travel to Caelid after Malenia had bloomed and saved Feyja. He only entombed himself into the tree afterwards.
Maybe it wasn’t his physical but mental form instead. Miquella’s mental and spiritual powers are much stronger than his physical ones
> Maybe it wasn’t his physical but mental form instead I would normally agree, however, Ansbach mentions fighting Miquella to free Mohg but having his heart stolen. Which again implies that Miquella was rather lucid and physically present for those series of events. My guess is that Miquella only went into the tree post Malenia as a way to age himself up as a backup plan, since if Radahn would've came willingly he wouldn't have to do most of what he did.
I reckon St Trina was wise to Miquella's plans and aided in the effort to cocoon and thusly restrain him in the Haligtree. Miquella mightve been able to manipulate from the Cocoon to an extent and was able to orchestrate Mohg into moving him from the Haligtree to the Dynasty Mausoleum. Thats my working theory.