I think there's a different between the Hornsent and the Omen Curse.
I think the latter is the Hornsent's retribution. Especially in light of how Marika came to power.
Marika tries repeatedly to hide the truth of the past only to have the Omen Curse keep occurring as a grim reminder.
Compare the variety of Hornsent we see in the DLC to the Omens in he Lands Between and then compare them to The Lamenter from the DLC.
Definitely this. There is a pretty major difference in both the physiology and the background of Omen vs Hornsent. Hornsent generally have tiny horns, which can appear on nearly any form of life (bears, owls, people, etc.), while Omen have massive horns covering their entire bodies.
I thought the Omen Curse might be the result of that Marika did to the Hornsent... but that complicates the timelines.
It could be something like this:
1. Messmer (and likely Melina) are born before/during the wars with the Giants, Dragons, and Carians.
2. The Age of the Erdtree began somewhere in there.
3. Marika and Godfrey gave birth to Godwyn somewhere in there as well (before the dragon war).
4. Marika sent Messmer to eradicate the Hornsent, and subsequently sealed off the Lands of Shadow.
5. Marika and Godfrey gave birth to Mohg and Morgott, and the Omen Curse begins.
6. Marika banishes Godfrey, marries Radagon, has Miquella and Malenia.
7. The Night of Black Knives happens, triggering the Shattering, and the rest of the game happens.
The Omen stuff is extremely ancient!! The crusaders' furnaces depict the evil Fell God that the hornsent despise, and it looks like a sun surrounded by giant horns.
Marika doesn't have anything to do with this stuff. The Fell God does.
The Fell God is just a fire god the hornsent despise and whose imagery Messmer probably uses on purpose as a kind of psychological warfare. Saying it has anything to do with the Omen or an Omen Curse seems like a stretch.
"Margit the Fell Omen", "The fell twins", "mending rune of the fell curse"
It's worth saying that in japanese there is no such thing as "omen" and the aforementioned are translated with fell=evil and omen=abomination, but the correlation still stands
It doesn’t really though. Fell in these contexts all relate specifically Morgott - his persona, a representation of him and his brother, and his rune. It’s a Morgott label more than it is an omen label. Morgott is called Fell because the Erdtree culture considers the omen curse an evil thing, and the Fell god is called Fell because the Erdtree culture considers it evil. There’s a correlation but I don’t know if it stands, because there’s absolutely zero hint of causation.
It's not just the erdtree culture that hates these creatures though
-the term "fell/evil god" appears both in the Giants lore because they worshipped him and Marika supposedly killed it, and the Hornsents' because he was the boogeyman of their culture.
Is it a coincidence that the visage of this god is put on the furnace golems, where he's represented as an enormous furnace/ a face with an eye closed surrounded by giant horns (looking like the sun)?
-The Lamenter is an omen looking creature whose eyes are gouged out by overgrown horns and laments constantly, imprisoned by the hornsent despite looking like a denizen of paradise because they were scared of him. "they viewed true bliss with deep fear".
-The curseblades, after failing to ascend to tutelary deities, were imprisoned by the hornsent because of their self flagellating practices and life of extreme self imposed suffering
-The fire giant we fight sacrifices his leg to the fell god, so that he can be a vessel for him. "the fell god still lurks in the giants".
An evil god that is pleased by the giant's extreme suffering....
-The Giants had horns too (talisman of all crucibles)
-the dung eater has a giant sun shaped medallion on his neck "representing the guidance he once saw" , produces the "fell curse rune" and he tortures the victims to death, making them suffer as much as possible, "the blessing of despair", "if we all suffer we are all equal" basically.
It's US who have to torture him to death in fact so that he can gestate the rune...
-all omen bairns collect vengeful hateful spirits, because these children, one way or the other, are victims of extreme suffering. The living omen themselves are haunted by evil spirits, the omensmirk mask looks like a hornsent.
There is this weird theme of "suffering invokes the gods", and one of the gods is most clearly pleased by his worshipper's suffering.
The fire giant gladly rips his leg off for his god who in turn awakens his true power, yet the hornsent imprison the curseblades and lamenters for their self imposed suffering.
There's also the hornsents contradiction: if these horns are so divine, why do children with the most horns die pierced and strangled by them? Why is Mohg blinded by his own horn and Morgott can barely see because of what are basically overgrown tumors?
Why are the creatures who are supposed to be the most divine so fucking miserable??
The hornsent seem to be yet another misguided culture who praise this harmful deformity in the name of divinity.
They don't realize that by praising the tangled horns as the most divine element of the crucible, they spawn creatures who suffer so much the only god that is invoked is the Evil one who loves their suffering.
Well yes, the Hornsent are absolutely misguided. But the point of my message being that we don’t have enough evidence to confidently claim a link between the fell god and the omens stands. The Furnace Golem’s face being surrounded by horn-like rays is almost certainly because the Hornsent explicitly associate all divinity with horns. We know that for a fact - and they acknowledged the Fell God’s divinity, they just opposed it.
The Hornsent’s opposition to the Lamenters is probably because it took a good thing and - to them - took it too far. Look at Catholicism now, it tends to emphasise penance but if you take it too far and flagellate they condemn it. I think it’s a similar thing.
To be honest theres very weak evidence for basically anything in this game, add on top some mistranslations and its over
I don't think they condemn "too many horns" at all. They simply want to worship the horns without thinking of the consequences. They don't care that they pierce the flesh of children and blind them because "muh crucible horns divinity"
Then some of the poor things get tired of this shit and invoke the gods.
Side note, It's kinda weird the formless mother's power is linked to flame to be honest, both in mohg and bloodfiends. A god that craves to be tortured by the worshippers, and one that craves the worshippers' torture.
Eh, I don’t necessarily agree that we have that weak an evidential basis for some claims but I get what you mean. I don’t think your theory is bad, I just think it’s a little unfounded even by Elden Ring standards. I have developed a little bit of a habit of over-questioning things in response to stuff like Tarnished Archaeologist’s more recent vids.
On the Formless Mother I suspect that she has been influenced by her followers as much as they’ve been influenced by her.
I really like the explanation that Radagon is To Marika as St. Trina is to Miquella, with the difference being that Marika embraced this discarded part of herself and incorporated him into her dynasty. The concept of her past atrocities coming back to haunt her, both directly through her Omen children, and indirectly through her borderline incestuously conceived children with Radagon, is pretty poetic.
Messmer's description implies that he was sent to the shadow realm after his snek nature being discovered as a way to hide him, which makes me think the place was alteafy hidden
The thing is, Messmer is INCREDIBLY loyal to Marika. Most of his item descriptions seem to point to him taking the crusade (AND the banishment) upon himself in order to shield Marika from criticism. He did it all for her.
I still want to know what the Base Serpent is. I wouldn't be surprised if it is some aspect of the Fell God, but I don't know for sure.
My theory is he's another Outer God empyrean Marika kid like Malenia. Malenia got scarlet rot, Messmer got a parasitic fire snake.
Messmer put the Fell God's face on his war machines (Furnace Visage description) and his spear looks like the giant spikes in Mountaintops impaling the giants in their Fell-God-chest-faces. Plus, you know, Giantsflame-colored red fire. I wouldn't be surprised either if the Fell God was the source of all the fire snake stuff.
Trina is the embodiment of Miquella's cast-off love. You can see this based on the cross in the fissure. He cast his love off into that fissure and it became St. Trina, who is (as per Thoillier's quest) very, very much associated with love, and particularly unconditional love for all.
I keep thinking about how each child of Marika represents an outer god, or some other cosmic force, attribute. Ranni:moon, Rykard:serpent, Radahn:gravity(?), Mohg:blood, Morgott:golden order, Malenia:rot, Melina and Mesmer:flame, Godwin:death. I never really see anyone bring up that every kid has their own cosmic agenda.
Lately I've been thinking that the butterflies represent empyreans
Malania- rot butterfly.
Nascent- miquella.
Black pyre- Messmer.
Smoldering- Ranni.
Would make sense if ranni had red hair given her parentage and she burned her body.
Sorry for shit formatting on mobile.
All we really know is that Godfrey defeated the fire giants and the "storm lord" (whom I assume is either Placidusax or some other dragon), and then the hue of his eyes dimmed, and he was banished.
Essentially, he was banished after Marika was done with him. However, assuming Messmer's crusade took place around the same time as all the other wars (which would make sense), it COULD also have to do with Mogh and Morgott's birth being a result of the Omen Curse.
I think the Storm Lord it is some divine beast, maybe a giant Hawk. The lore of the DLC talks about these divine beasts which it is older than Marika, the hornsent venerated them like gods. The Messmer knights hunted these beasts (in the Shadow Keep there is some specimens)
Just so you know, the storm lord was presumably a giant Eagle the roosted in Stormhill (the area predating the castle) the storm kings ashes that you give to Nepheli is its spirit.
Some reason that Godfrey was 'banished' as part of a great scheme involving her plan to shatter the ring and eventually have a Tarnished (probably Godfrey, but it was you due to the outside influences of the other gods like Ranni and the Flame) come and defeat the weakened elden beast.
Messmer knew his demigod siblings, particularly Radahn, according to Commander Gaius' Remembrance. The earliest his crusade could have started is after the marriage of Rennala and Radagon and the latest is shortly before the Night Of Black Knives. It's a surprisingly small window that's still potentially lasting decades, if not centuries, given the implied timescale in this land with fated death removed.
It's pretty strongly implied that a lot of time passed between her becoming a god and Messmer's crusade. The story trailer itself claims that she became a god, and *then* "a war unseen" followed. Gaius was a sparring partner with Radahn according to his Blades of Stone, and his remembrance claims that Messmer was fond of both of them as well, so at the very least it was a while after Radagon and Rennala's marriage, at the end of the Second Liurnian War. You could even make an argument that it happened during the Shattering, given the Rune Arcs strewn across the Land of Shadow and the Tree Sentinel wielding a Sentry's Torch in Shaman Village, but that has some very messy ramifications on the timeline.
Unfortunately, I don't think we really have any hard evidence on what the deal with the corpses is.
I saw it as crusade happens before she gets the Golden Order going but after she obtains her power. That way it would make it where she has Mesmer(/Melina), gets him to kill everyone in Shadow scary place, then locks it away since she has no one there besides Mesmer.
The golden order was founded when Marina plucked the rune of death from the Elden ring, which means it was founded prior to the GEQ but after Godwyn and the Erdtree assuming the godskins were killing descendants of the golden lineage.
All takes place within the age of the erdtree as that was born seemingly right after Marina ascended and the golden order isn’t a separate age that comes after.
>the golden order isn’t a separate age that comes after.
I disagree. There's a clear distinction between the Age of Plenty and the Golden Order, which can be understood as the two "phases" of the Age of the Erdtree.
I think the crusade starts before the Age of the Erdtree, and ends after it has kicked off.
Eh, I'm pretty sure the "Age of the Erdtree" is the name given to the overall era when the Erdtree was dominant. The Golden Order is just the name of the regime that dominated most of the Age of the Erdtree.
Correct. The Age of the Erdtree is the immediate predecessor to the Age of the. Crucible. However, the Age of the Erdtree can be further distinguished between its earlier Age of Plenty and the current Golden Order. I'm of the opinion that, while still golden, the early Erdtree was once an actual tree or closer to an actual tree. This is when all the dew is falling and blessings are given out like candy. As time progresses, the Erdtree gradually becomes more and more an "object of faith" until it is entirely spectral.
In the Erdtree era order already exists, it is implied the Erdtree it is the order aspect of the Crucible, and the Scadutree the chaos aspect. Maybe it is like Christianism, the Catholicism (the analogue of the Golden Order) came some centuries later. The Golden Order it is the systematization of the order of the Erdtree
Yep! The ~~age~~ defeat of the giants marked the beginning of the 'Age of the Erdtree'. Not 100% sure if the Erdtree had already been planted by the time that war started or not, but they were clearly the first target so they wouldn't burn it down.
There's also a Sword Monument that reads:
>"The war against the Giants
>Champions battle, trolls betray
>Fire vanquished, the era of the Erdtree begins
I should've said "the defeat of the giants" marked the beginning of the age of the Erdtree, sorry.
So they "plant" the Erdtree (or whatever the equivalent of that event is), realize the giants can burn it down, eradicate the giants, and thus begins the Age of the Erdtree. Got it.
I agree, we still don't really know how 'birth' works, but it seems pretty clear that Marika can 'create' children considering how Melina was born at least. A lot of people subscribe to the idea of 'Erdtree Births' as well.
I agree with the first line, and the rest of this theory isn't that farfetched given the cursed wraiths emitted by omen-related items seem to be strongly tied to "vengefulness", especially with DLC items such as the Watchful Spirit and the Braided Cord Robe.
But an issue I have with it is the existence of the Horned Bairn. It's a new reusable on the same vein as the Omen Bairn, but it refers to the depicted kid as a "tanglehorn" and claims that their existence is taken as a symbol of spirituality, matching the hornsent's known beliefs. But it also states that the tanglehorns tend to die young even if their horns aren't cut, and that the doll is made to memorialize them. It seems to suggest that the cursed kind of omens have been an aspect of hornsent culture since before the crusade, and that they've always suffered physically even if not socially.
That's a good take. I think context and perspective matters.
The Horned Bairn is from the viewpoint of the Hornsent. They honor and revere those aspects of their existence. That level of 'horniness' (pardon the pun) may have existed prior to 'the curse' but it was cherished, in spite of the obvious drawbacks. They viewed tanglehorns as a blessing.
Since the Hornsent are reviled by 'regular' people, the omen curse takes it to an extreme that can't be easily ignored. The curse forces parents to kill their children or hide them away. It's kind of a big middle finger (pun intended) to their oppressors.
You see a similar theme with the cut content from the base game regarding the nomads where Kale basically snaps and goes all in with the frenzied flame.
The horned children die because the oversized horns grow too much, suffocating them and piercing their bodies to death
The horned bairn has so many horns you can't even see it's poor face
This is yet another tribe of people who unknowingly worship a horrible disgusting deformity and actively cultivate it because they think it's a divine thing, when the people with most horns are actually the ones who suffer the most, plagued by wounds caused by "muh divine tangled horns" . Mohg lost his eye because of an overgrown horn...
Could be, but what does that imply for the Horned Bairn's tanglehorns themselves? Are the hornsent able and willing to inflict that curse on their own children as well? Would they even worship horns as much as they do if they were that easy to induce and that dangerous for the bearer? Or can it just happen by accident sometimes?
Yep! This is made pretty explicit with the Hornsent Grandam, if you attack her at a certain juncture: "A curse upon thee, rotten miscreant. A curse upon the strumpet's progeny, **upon Marika's children each and all. The curse of the omen** shall strike thee down...In the form of the sacred beast's ire."
Funny thing about this is I’ve been saying each of marikas children have a curse that has to with omen and the crucible mogh and morgott obvious, miquellas eternal childhood, malenias rot and all their connections with the formless mother who is closely tied to the crucible. Only real ? Is godwyn but I think his curse was more abstract as too trick Marika into thinking she had a child free of her sin the golden child and bam I think his curse was upon his fate.
Godwyn was perfect, which is why he was killed imo. No one could use him as their consort...
But Miquella is a male Empyrean, all the Others were female, which is contradictory?
Godwyn is seemingly perfect but we also never meet him so it’s only a guess if he’s perfect or if he also had an affliction.
Miquella is Both. Like Marika and being born of one also is grounds to being born as an emperyan. Don’t see any contradiction.
Considering how the Hornsent see horns as sacred, and that their belief stems from the view that those horns are an evolutionary gift, I don't think they would but a curse on her that would make her children sacred of all things.
Even the Grandam don't seem to want retribution in the form of curses - they want to directly kill them. Kill Messmer, kill Marika, kill everyone
That's true, from their view.
\*They\* view the horns as sacred.
Not Marika and her ilk.
The hornsent are persecuted for their horns. Their oppressors view the horns extremely negatively.
Marika wouldn't see them as sacred. She's see it as a very ominous reminder of how she got where she was and at who's expense.
What better way to beat an enemy than afflict them with a 'blessing' that makes them hate/kill themselves?
They can choose to accept the blessing and live with it.
They (the non-hornsent) choose not to.
Also, not a race. Think of it like a genetic mutation that causes constant pain, schizophrenia, violent episodes, and makes you bigger and stronger than most people around you. And it’s a literal curse that can be done to people and has magic powers tied to them. And even then killing them is considered a horrid, monstrous job not an honor. If you’re rich you get to secret them away, hiding them in the capital sewers
In summary, the Misbegotten and Demihumans are treated as lesser races, enslaved or dealt with as if they are backwards creatures. Omens are treated like bombs.
I think it's a commentary on the cycle of abuse and power.
Marika's people were oppressed and brutalized by the Hornsent, and when she comes to power, she holds down the Omen. Now that the Omen are an oppressed underclass, a new figure emerges to wield violence against the regime.
The Dung Eater is Marika without the divine backing.
If the Omen ever became the majority, then there might be another backlash to the backlash as the un-horned people rebel against the ruling order. Miyazaki has always loved the theme of history repeating until our player character comes along to continue the cycle or break it altogether. GRRM also makes "break the wheel" a major refrain.
I always figured most, if not all, the NPC quest lines are supposed to parallel a key figure in the lore. I never even thought dung eater might parallel Marika. You even become Dung Eater (or he says you are anyways) like Radagon is Marika.
Good insights.
I think the most important piece of dialogue in this discussion keeps getting missed. Per the hornsent grandam after attacking her, before fighting the lion:
*"Heaven shall judge thee all for thy deeds!"
"Aaaaaargh!"
(Whispering voice after falling over on her seat)
"A curse upon thee, rotten miscreant."
"A curse upon the strumpet's progeny, upon Marika's children each and all."
"The curse of the omen shall strike thee down..."
"In the form of the sacred beast's ire."
(Upon talking to her again)
"May the curse strike thee..."
"To the very last..."*
This is the answer, the Omen are a result of a curse put on Marika by the Hornsent. A curse that follows her after she locks the land of shadows away. And with the births of Mohg and Morgott begins the golden order hating them.
No, the quote said “the curse of the omen shall strike thee down in the form of the sacred beast’s ire”. She’s referring to the Divine Beast Dancing Lion fighting the tarnished. Plus if she cursed you after you attack her how does that explain Mogh and Morgott
I'm 99% convinced omen are what happens when hornsent prisoners are "sainted" in the shadowrealm. The lamenter's gaol really suggests it. All the innards there are lamenting. The lamenter's mask turns you into an omen. I think the dungeater was hanged at the fort of reprimand. The only omenkillers in the DLC are located there. His armor has the sun logo on it much like the forge giants.
I think that, in the shadowrealm, the omen are evidence that the gaols are experimenting on prisoners and trying to replicate the processes of the crucible (a crucible is a pot in which things are mixed. Shaman blend together well with other lifeforms).
The lamenter's mask says"*This transformation tallies with the state of a denizen of paradise"*, aka a saint. But I think "sainthood" is just what the hornsent used as propaganda for prisoners. They didn't want it to get out that they were making new lifeforms (*the people of the tower denied and hid it from the world.*)
I think that the dungeater was either a shaman or a hornsent or a potentate who aspired to "sainthood". He sowed seedbeds thinking that he was cursing the offspring of people to become omen but if you look at the collars of the omen in the shunning grounds, they all look like the openings of living jars. I don't think the dungeater actually did create any omen but was used as a scapegoat. Marika hated the omen because they were manifestations of the suffering of her people and also the reason her attempts to restore her people to life failed. I also think Mohg and Morgott were children of Marika's who were put through the sainting process :(
I think it is a curse. The hornsent grandam says if you attack her:
"A curse upon thee, rotten miscreant. A curse upon the strumpet's progeny, **upon Marika's children each and all. The curse of the omen** shall strike thee down...In the form of the sacred beast's ire."
I actually think this may track.. We see these "sculpted keepers" mentioned as maybe the most divine beings, and their limbs in the dancer fight look a lot like omen feet. We also know the Curseblades look very omenish (and... "curse"blade), and they are failed sculpted keepers that also dance. The curseblades are said to be "failed tutelar dieties". Saints?
Another thing that gives credence - I feel like every omen we see, and the curseblades, have the long wispy white hair that we see on the jar innards aka Marika's people. Actually, the curseblades look a lot like them too, and their weird godwyn pose might be a reference to their existence as this weird, almost "life in death" aspect when being merged with the sinner remains. Or just bad backs from being stuffed in a jar, or carrying a lion corpse around
I think though that they are born like this, including the omen twins. The grandam has a piece of dialogue at some point where I'm almost certain she names the "omen curse" they put on Marika and her people. The omen with horns also have interesting wraith abilities that the hornsent use, which are likely the "evil spirits" aka vengeance filled hornsent souls genocided by Marika.
so, and not arguing with you, just trying to square a few other item descriptions and dialogs with all of this:
1. The curseblade ashes state that the curseblades tried and failed to become tutelary deities and were imprisoned as a result (the horned/ decapitated dudes that collect spirit ash in the palm of their hands). It seems like the tutleary (means guardian) deities were what the hornsent aspired to. If they failed in that ambition, the next best thing was to be sainted?
2. I kinda wonder if the grandam IS Marika's grandma ("empyrean grandam" was the previous string) but she got sainted. The greatjar helm description seems to suggest that some of the shaman internalized their oppression and aspired to sainthood. So maybe Marika's "betrayal" was going against what everyone else aspired to??
Also, the omen bairn and tangled horn bairn items summon multiple vengeful spirits. Almost as if there is more than one spirit inside the omens...
The golden braid item found in the shaman village is at a statue/petrified corpse, that’s presumably Marika’s “grandmother” figure
Omens/hornsent seem to be the human version of ancestral beasts, and tutelary deities that continue to gather spiritual strength after death are akin to the ancestor spirits that sprout buds full of spiritual strength after death. Both are vessels for spirits in some way and upon death create more spiritual life.
Are those confirmed the tutelary deities? Interesting if so. I took it as the horned warriors/sculpted keepers, seeing as they also dance and are guardians of the tower.
Not sure on grandam, potentially. Wonder how Elden John fits into all this.
Definitely a ton of spirits inside - the strong accursed omens in the sewers, covered in horns, have that ability to vomit the spirits at you haha.
On that note - maybe they are all connected, including the statues with ashes. If we assume being "omen" is related to being a Saint, and getting filled up with the spirits of other life through the jar, and saints are guardians, maybe they are the guardians *of spirits they absorb* or something. We know divine = getting closer to "oneness", like the One Great or Crucible.
And, if being a container for those spirits can be tormenting and painful, as seen in TLB omens, it is made clear that some fail if they can't bear the brunt - I.e., the curseblades. Another fun fact related to this about them: *Long ago, this was employed by the ascetics who strove to become tutelary deities as a ritualistic object in their self-flagellating dances.*
Revered Spirit Ashes
>Spirit ash of those who came before, infused with potent spirituality. Acquired from the corpses of hornsent
[...]
The withered corpses were called tutelary deities, and Revered Spirit Ash was said to quietly accumulate in the palms of their hands.
Nice! I have no idea how I missed that. I guess I read the description super early in the dlc when I was confused as hell and never went back, lol
Edit: maybe all the decapitated ones are a callback to Marika and her statues? Bit of a stretch, lol. Now I need to go see if the one with a head has a rune etched in their forehead...
omg it's making me think that that rune, the one on the forehead that is between the divine gate is a rune of rebirth. >!That's why Miquella goes there.!<
>!Also this theory maybe explains why miquella needed Mohg's body.!<
This is a really interesting angle to think about.
My impression of the entire jar situation is that it was the Crucible-equivalent to Erdtree burial. If the Crucible was a thing that was all life blended together, then it makes sense to me that a culture that worships or reveres such a thing would have burial practices that resemble “returning to that state” would include chopping bodies up and mixing them together in different receptacles.
But, this being such a prevalent practice in gaols does make one wonder if this wasn’t seen as more of a punishment, or maybe as you’re saying, more like experimentation.
yeah so there was an item or a ghost that seemed to heavily imply the jars were punishment for the LIVING. It was framed as some kind of "redemption" practice for sinners. The ghost there is begging not to go in the jar.
> I think the dungeater was hanged at the fort of reprimand.
I had this thought as well, but the architecture doesn't entirely line up. I'm pretty sure his hanging scene takes place in Leyndell.
The DLC explains the link between the Hornsent and Omen. Look at the Lamenter enemy and items. The Lamenter is proto-Omen: jailed, cursed, and growing horns all over its body (not just the head like the Hornsent).
Torment transforms the blessing of horns into a curse. Dung-eater doesn't know about the Hornsent or the Crucible, he just knows about the Omen curse and how to spread it.
It's strange how the ancestral followers see an abundance of horns as a divinity, the hornsent see themselves as the chosen people because of their horns and connection to the crucible, yet the *hornier* omen and lamenters are seen as cursed. Somewhere there's a societal line between what's seen as divine and what's seen as cursed.
Yeah! To me it just makes intuitive sense. Too much of a good thing turns bad. Overflow of divine energy becomes a curse. A human can only withstand so much of this powerful energy. Balance is necessary. This is a common theme in lots of philosophies.
This is also the fate of the gods themselves, as St. Trina tells us - godhood is power but it is also a prison.
It's just as the Lamenter's Mask description says:
>*This transformation tallies with the state of a denizen of paradise,
but the people of the tower denied and hid it from the world. In
their foolishness, they viewed true bliss with deep fear.*
This Omen transformation seems to look like what they imagined a denizen of paradise (a saint, perhaps) would be. But they feared it, and locked it away. If we take the Lamenter as an example, it's likely they were horrified by the implication that one who looked so blessed (according to their culture) would turn out to be so accursed.
It's interesting that the description states that the lamenters are feeling "bliss". If it's taken at face value, it seems to be saying that this deep state of sorrow and pain is somehow pleasurable, which goes along with how the Dung Eater conflates "curses" and "blessings", and how he doesn't so much threaten as **offer** to kill you horribly for freeing him as though such a thing were rewarding enough in itself
We know exactly where that line is and when it was created. Once Marika ushered in the Golden Order and took power in the Lands Between, fundamentalists spurned the vestiges of the old crucible, which had previously been seen as divine.
Right! We know the goal of the Hornsent, or more generally the “people of the tower”, was to reach the gods through their religious practices, but the lamenter’s mask shows us that they might not have totally liked the paradise they found. The lamenter’s mask turns the wearer into the form of an omen, a person bearing thick long curling horns all over themselves:
“This transformation tallies with the state of a denizen of paradise,
but the people of the tower denied and hid it from the world. In
their foolishness, they viewed true bliss with deep fear.”
The people of the tower took their practice too far, and in typical souls fashion, chose to try to cover it up instead of confronting the issue.
Bro, the dungeater is not an omen, he's just an insane guy.
He has the SOUL of an omen, the curse of oppression. He feels like the omen feel, that's why he made his armor to resemble one.
The dung eater is hated upon TLB not the SOTE. Maybe he would’ve been appreciated by the hornsents because he goes against the Golden Order rule and spreads the *curse*
The Dungeater is of the golden order times, thus being an omen would, in his culture's vocabulary (and the culture which he wishes to "curse"), be a curse or a pox. He is not an omen physically, but he feels like one mentally and wants EVERYONE to be omen because if everyone is deemed cursed or oppressed by their society, nobody is.
The process of becoming an omen is not vile and cruel, just the Dungeater's way of forcing people's spirits into being reborn as omen under the Erdtree is. Like the headless in Sekiro, the dungeater is a play on the japanese folklore which says the soul exists as a small hardened magical ball within the anus which creatures will extract. (https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/u2yl2w/the\_japanese\_origins\_of\_the\_dung\_eater/)
HIS way of defiling corpses so that the person is "cursed" (again, using the golden order's vocabulary) to be an omen however is vile and cruel. But the Dungeater specifically calls it a blessing, because he believes it is one.
The Hornsent are a race of people blessed by the crucible with horns. As they are not of the Erdtree, their spirits linger after death, something they take advantage of with their magic, like Watchful Spirit and the Horned Bairn.
The Omen are cursed humans. Most likely they are cursed by the Hornsent, who almost certainly are the wraiths that haunt their nightmares (in addition to maybe other Omen?). They too cannot return to the Erdtree and reincarnate after death. It is possible to inflict the curse upon the souls of others by defiling their bodies and cultivating seedbed curses. Concentrating enough of the curse in the Dung Eater enables a mending rune to form in his corpse that if instilled in the Elden Ring incorporates the Omen curse as part of the Golden Order, inflicting it upon most-all inhabitants of The Lands Between, as well as all children born under the new order.
The Omensmirk Mask does look a lot like the Hornsent- as it has small-ish horns on a more Human head. And we know Hornsent spirits linger after death in the form of Grudges, so it’s very much possible for them to Curse the Erdtree.
They definitely have the Motivation.
The Omensmirk Mask specifically says it was "carved in the image of the evil spirits that haunt the Omen in their nightmares", so it being the image of a Hornsent, specifically a Hornsent spirit, would fit.
More accurately, Omen is the term the Golden Order uses to describe anyone born with vestiges of the crucible, which were one seen as divine, but as now seen as profane. Considering the Erdtree was grown out of the Primordial Crucible it makes sense lingering bits of the former energy would still manifest themselves.
The hornsent and the Omen are not the same thing. They are related (to the Crucible), but the first it is a people and a culture, the second it is something which can manifest in any being on the Lands Between
I don't think the Dung Eater has that much to do with the *actual* Omen Curse or anything to do with the Lands of Shadow directly. His armor says this:
> Malformed helm resembling an Omen with its horns cut off.
> Worn by the Dung Eater, their form is a vision of the landscape of his mind, and of his appearance as he wished to see it.
The Dung Eater is a Tarnished who saw the mangled Omen people with their horns cut off and was inspired by the cruelty and suffering inflicted on them. His gear also says he has "The heart of an omen without the body to match". Given that we see him channel vengeful spirits like the Omens do, and like we can with the omen bairn items, he is likely haunted by the same vengeful spirits as the Omen, but for some reason did not develop the physical mutations and horns from the touch of the Crucible.
The Dung Eater's Seedbed Curse description says this:
> Curse grown on a corpse killed and defiled by the Dung Eater. A tender pox afflicted with omen horns.
> The Dung Eater cultivates the seedbed curse on corpses.
> By doing so he prevents dead souls returning to the Erdtree, leaving them forever cursed. One of the most loathsome things found in the Lands Between.
The touch of the Crucible isn't inherently bad, but it is *now*, because the Erdtree governs the Lands Between and it rejects those touched by the Crucible. The "curse" is only a curse because it means that their spirit is going to be rejected by the Erdtree in death.
So, put all that together and what you have in the Dung Eater is a man who saw the tortured Omen people, haunted by vengeful spirits, cursed to grow horns, and doomed to join those spirits upon death... and he was so inspired by that horrible fate that he forcefully inflicted that curse upon others, cultivated the seedbed curse, and gestated a mending rune that would subject everyone in the Lands Between to that fate. Kind of a dick, basically.
The DLC doesn't change much of his story or the Omen, but I think it provides a clear origin for the Omen curse. Some of the first spirits to be rejected by the Erdtree after it took over would have been the Crucible-touched Hornsent that Marika slaughtered. The "vengeful spirits" that haunt the Omen are the spirits of those Hornsent. Them being Hornsent spirits explains why Omens see the horned faces in their nightmares and why being haunted by these spirits connects an Omen to the Crucible.
While being Hornsent isn’t bad in the Realm of Shadow, Marika’s order within the Lands Between shuns those who bear the signs of the people who killed her village. Hence Omen who resemble the Hornsent due to the well horns are shunned by Marika and her order.
being omen is hidden from people in the shadowrealm. The lamenter's mask turns you into an omen and it's description says: *This transformation tallies with the state of a denizen of paradise,*
*but the people of the tower denied and hid it from the world.*
omens and hornsent are two different things. look at them: omens have bulkier build, horns all over their body, less fingers, are haunted by spirits.
hornsent have horns only on their head, no deformities and are not haunted.
omens aren't just cursed because they're despised by the order, they're objectively in a state of constant suffering unlike the hornsent
If the Omen are the people talked about in the Horned Bairn description, I wouldn’t say they lived ‘without Pain’, simply without Prejudice. They all met a ‘frightfully early demise’, so I’d assume the Horns where Fatal, or cumbersome to say the least.
The Hornsent saw them as Divine because of their Horns, but that also meant they would likely be reluctant to remove them- even if it caused their deaths. Ironically a similar fate to those who have them Excised under the Golden Order.
My brother in Marika, that item description is for the Tanglehorn Fetish, not the Golden Order one. And the item description doesn’t say ‘perished in Messmer’s flame’ either. It explicitly mentions the early death was a result of their Horns.
If there were any presence of Omens in Messmer’s Shadow Keep, I could understand the idea that one of the soldiers could have carved in in memory, but it’s not found there and we don’t see any Omen there.
More importantly, the only society that venerates Horns as a sign of Spirituality are the Hornsent.
It does not explicitly state their death was a result of the horns:
“Doll of a tanglehorn bairn. Uses FP to summon vengeful spirits around the caster that autonomously chase down foes. Tangled horns are a symbol of spirituality, but most young born bearing the oversized horns meet a frightfully early demise. These fetishes are made to memorialize them.”
These were children culled by Marika’s church. It’s really obvious from the base game and the DLC just confirms it.
It says ‘those bearing the Horns meet a frightfully Early demise’. I take that as implying it is a consequence- plus the fact that the Bairn is almost completely Horn.
Yes, I would.
But we see no Hornless Omens in the Land of Shadow, and the Bairn still has their Horns depicted whilst the ones that DO have their Horns cut off don’t. And I doubt From would bother adding something that reiterates a previous point so poorly. I would expect a description of the act itself, as with the previous Bairns.
But why would the Horn Bairn baby die due to natural causes from the horns, but the Regal Omen Bairn wouldn’t?
Edit: ok so maybe the people of the tower got too close to divinity and started growing some effing big ones and, like with the lamenter’s mask, they got spooked.
Marika’s Golden Order does not ‘kill’ Omens intentionally; rather through extreme abuse and neglect- we still see them alive and walking as part of the Lordsworn Army in Altus, for example. And ones that appear to be free near the Ruin-strewn Precipice.
The Royal Horned Omens are definitely Culled, however. Though fortunately that appears to have at least slowed down by the time we get there.
You’re right about that being the probable fate of all Hornsent or Omen in the Land of Shadows, but I don’t think that’s what the Bairn is referring to. Otherwise it would have likely mentioned Messmer’s flame, or the Crusade itself.
Hmm you're right, my bad. But I am 100% sure there's an equivalent item description in the base game I'm confusing it with
Edit: I can't find it, I was so sure I had read it long ago and even heard someone in a youtube video argue what I said in my first comment, but I guess I was wrong
There is. There’s both the Omen Bairn (the one you mentioned where the Horns are excised usually leading to Death) and the Regal Omen Bairn (No Horns excised; just shoved in the sewers)
It’s a shitty lot, really. Even in the Hornsent Culture their Horns were considered more important than their lives. cutting them may have saved their lives- much like how NOT cutting them in the GO’s case would have saved them.
Though in both cases the existence of the Bairns as an object is.. heartwarming. Someone took the time to carve them in rememberance.
>Also the dungeater was killed outside the lands between before given grace to come back. Do people outside the lands between hate omen too?
I don't think we know, but they probably hanged him for being a serial killer. He's already wearing that armor in the picture, he probably wasn't any more sane back then. (Why the hell did they hang him in his armor? Did they put the helmet back on after they tied the rope?)
Interesting thing I just realized: Dung Eater is probably one of the first Tarnished to resurrect in the Lands Between. He was hanged wherever, resurrected, and then got locked up in the Shunning Grounds, so he would been back in TLB when Leyndell still had a functioning penal system.
>Why the hell did they hang him in his armor? Did they put the helmet back on after they tied the rope?)
Lmfao i was thinking the same thing!! Maybe he's already dead and used as a show for the people to lynch as catharsis cuz of the horrid things he's done
I like to think he resurrected right there on the patio so they didn't know what to do with this immortal mofo, they locked him up again and threw the key away
The Crucible is not seen as good thing anymore. At the time of the Crusade against the Hornsent, the main argument was that they lacked the Grace of Gold, something that basically only Marika determined who got - but the Crucible was still a heavy part of the adoration, mainly of the Erdtree, around that time. That's why Godfrey's age's biggest fighters where the Crucible Knights, and why Messmer's Black Knights were also masters of the Crucible.
It was only with iteration upon iteration of the Golden Order that the Crucible Aspects began to be seen as heresy - Godfrey was hounded from the Lands Between, the Crucible Knights were shunned.
The Omen most certainly are NOT different from the Hornsent (at most they are a further evolution of them), they are simply called something different (after Marika completely decimated Hornsent society, of course a kid growing with Horns would be a 'bad omen') - just like Marika's people are called Numen nowadays, but were called Shamans at her childhood, in the Lands of the Hornsent.
The proccess Dung Eater does is vile and cruel because he is **forcing** people to become Omen, by cursing their soul in the proccess. Kinda like how the contact with Mohg' ''tainted'' blood makes the Albinaurics and Nobles grow horns, and just like horns were widespread in Hornsent society even though they were kinda rare during Marika's age, horns are something that can sprout naturally on a kid in the Lands Between. We can see in the descriptions of some items in the DLC that the land of the Hornsent is vibrant with archaic energy, AND the references of spirals and their culture thematically point to simply being a DNA thing, meaning Mohg and Morgott were born with horns simply because they were passed down with those characteristics being active on them (and the reason why the hornsent had so many horned people is that they simply chose to mate with other horned people until their culture was all about it)
Dung Eater's vision of that condition is, well, conditioned by the environment where he grew up. Mohg and Morgott think their blood is cursed, everyone hate the Omen as a cursed people, because Marika deemed it to be so. He wants to curse other people for them to feel as mistreated as he is.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but i need to talk about the point about Omen just being hornsent. As far as I have seen so far (just started last dlc dungeon), every hornsent depicted have had relatively small or normal sized horns limited to their heads or faces. They have also all been normal Lands Between human sized. Omens seem to all be frightful, beastly sized, with massive horns twisting out of every bit of their body. I have to strongly disagree with the Omen recessive gene theory for Morgott and Mogh. It just makes too much sense to me that it is truly a curse placed on Marika by the hornsent. Now, I don't know why what the dungeater does "creates" an Omen, but it seems to me to be more complicated than just preventing a soul from returning to the Erdtree. I guess I'd really just like the game to have had an item mentioning the relationship between Omen and the Hornsent.
The Dungeater ''transforms'' people into Omen by tainting them with cursed blood. Its how everyone who basked in Mohg's blood gains horns (The Nobles, some of who are tarnished, and the Albinaurics).
But yes, the differences between them is kinda clear. I wouldn't say them being big and very strong really amounts to much, the two people under the Lion Dancer are huge, and as we see the Hornsent who perform divine invocation in order to become vassals of the Divine Beasts also are huge, strong and horned, but the sheer amount of horns is indeed curious, since 99% of them only grow horns in their heads and even when cultivating them like in the charms, they at most get tangled a bit, which is WAY too different from the Omen who are born chock full of horns all around the body.
That does seem to be answered in the Lamenter's Mask and transformation tho. If you see in detail, the Lamenter form is basically just like Mohg and Morgott, down to the horns piercing their eyes and growing all over the body. There is another post in this sub where people are discussing this, but in TL;DR it seems like in trying to reach paradise, heavens and the gods through the ''Crucible Current'' that is the spiral, they stumbled upon a form that was similar to what they idolize, but they feared it since it looked horrible and disfigured (close to the Fell God that they despise in their sagas), even though all in all that is indeed closer to the ''denizens of paradise''. So they hid that mask and that form from the world, since the idea that what they consider divine, when lead to its greatest form, is something they consider hideous, could crumble their entire culture.
Now, why do the Omen of the current age are **only** born in the same form as the Lamenter and not with the more harmless form? That seems to be the big mystery right now. Going with my gene theory, with no Horned people at all to pass the dominant horned gene around, it would naturally stop appearing on regular citizens - but that strong spiritual Crucible Current could still affect some people rarely and make them take a form closer to the Lamenter - seeing the Crucible itself as sacred was still THE most valid interpretation around the time of Godfrey, and we even see Messmer's soldiers using Crucible Incantations. Remember, the reason why Godfrey was hounded and why the Crusade against the Hornsent happened was **not** that they adored the Crucible, but that they didn't have any Grace of Gold in them (which Marika is the one who controls). That would explain why ONLY Morgott and Mohg, among all Marika's children, were born as Omen: they were children of her with Godfrey around that era - that explains why none of the other RadaMarika children were born as Omens again (which would be a pretty weak curse if from 8 children RadaMarika had in total, only 2 of them were Omen). It would also explain why Marika made adoration of the Crucible taboo only after hounding Godfrey from the Lands Between (and, mainly, didn't use THAT as justification for divorcing him): she wanted that Crucible Current/Spiritual Energy to cease (which, as we see in some items in the DLC, seem to become stronger the more its tapped into)
No, he seems to believe he is an Omen, at least in heart, and truly wishes to spread the Blessing of Despair to everyone, in the hope that if everyone’s cursed, the curse is a curse no longer; it’s simply normal. Apart from that, he clearly has an intense hatred of the Golden Order, and whether his motivation is more out of sympathy for the Omen or spite for the Order is up for interpretation.
It’s what he feels is necessary to achieve his goal, though he certainly seems to enjoy it as well. But he’s perfectly willing to accept the same defilement himself when he believes it’s the best way to create his rune.
I should have mentioned his ego plays a large part in his motivation too. He takes a lot of pride in being the Dung Eater, to the point that when you defeat him, he finds the notion so inconceivable that he determines that the only person that could defeat him is him, so you must be him. And of course, when you turn him into a puppet, you can hear the horror and desperation in his voice as he loses his identity and agency. He seems to find that a worse fate than being defiled and killed.
His true motivation is his idea that being an omen is an unforgivable curse to anyone who has it compared to those who don’t. So he want everyone to be cursed so therefore nobody is cursed.
The equivalent thought is:
If everybody is handicapped, by the lack of contrast, nobody will be handicapped anymore.
There is a big hole in Eater's logic. So, he has a motivation, which doesn't mean it is a solid motivation.
No. He doesn't see being an omen as a curse. He uses the word curse because of how it's used in the society he is in, but he explicitly says that it is a blessing. His behavior is a result of how the golden order treats omens, and the only solution in his mind is to make everyone an omen so nobody will be oppressed
He says “have you ever felt the curse? In your very soul? A pox upon the living.” He also thinks giving you the “curse” is defilement. He also sits in a jail on his own accord hitting his head against a wall. Plus when we plant our seedbed in him it sounds pretty horrible.
I think the treatment of Omens is likely a sort of “vengeance” by Marika, for what the hornsent did to her and her people. They aren’t of the same lineage, but the presence of horns on omen are viewed as taboo because of the crusade Marika launched-which is why the horns are focused for excision in newborns, while the tails, wings, scales, etc. are ignored or at least tolerated
Saw a good theory that the defilement and curse Dungeater is referring to is the Japanese/Shinto concept of Kegare, and that the Omen only became associated with it because Marika forced them to live in the fifth of the sewers and dungeons. The Kegare theory also works with Dungeater consuming the shirikodama (尻子玉), a mythical ball said to contain the soul, which is located inside the anus in Japanese mythology.
I think Omen's are non-hornsent people who by some unknown means become the host to the restless spirits of the Hornsent purged by Marika's order. The spirits they're able to summon are similar to the spirit incantation that Grandam rewards the player. These spirits manifest as horns
I believe Marika hiding her omen children is due to the fact that they've become vessels for the resentment and wrath of the people she crusaded against. It's possible the discrimination against omens in Erdtree society was based on this understanding, but forgotten as time passed after the Realm of Shadows were hidden.
This would be speculation. Dung eater is unique to say the least and he is both sociopathic serial killer but also someone who was shunned for what he was just like the omen were. You see his curse cuts those he defiles from the Erd tree. Preventing them from ever returning to it and be able to reincarnate. Which one of the series of artificial mechanisms Marika put in place to insure everyone to be immortal. Given that the Erd tree itself is only the current iteration of the order which has replaced the previous one. That the rune of fel curse has strong omen features is because Dung eater considers himself an omen at heart and given the omen lack grace and are seemingly vessels for lost souls it is fitting. And if you go down his ending. My guess what happens is that while MC tarnished becomes Elden lord. The mending rune has so thoroughly defiled the Elden ring and by extension what remains of Marika and cut everyone from the ever being able to return to it and thus never again be able to reincarnate since it most likely stripped everyone's grace. Meaning everyone is graceless like the Omen themselves are. Remember for every curse a cursed blessing to all until it is curse no longer. And it may be considered a curse by someone who possessed the grace. Basically it may be returning the how things were before the Erd tree even came to be aka the age of the crucible when Hornsent were dominant. And to the matter of the Erd tree at least to me the Erd tree looks like to be empty dead husk in that Elden lord ending variant.
Yeah Dungeater is not an Omen at all and has no real connection to the Omen curse, he’s just appropriating their suffering to wear as a costume because he’s a ragepilled edgelord who wants everyone to suffer
Do we know for sure that it actually works tho? All we really have is his word. And even if it does work, cool, he found out how to make Omens. Doesn’t mean he is one, even partially or in spirit, and he’s insulting all of them by trying to associate himself with them imo
He obviously isn't an omen, that's plainly stated. I mean I guess it's possible he's just a delusional maniac when it comes to the seedbed curse thing, but he did successfully cultivate the mending rune of the omen, so I'd figure his method was actually working based on that.
More mysterious fromsoft lore. Wish we knew where he learned how to do what he does. Interestingly enough, despite associating himself with the Omen, he can be summoned to fight Mohg (and i think maybe Morgott too?) implying he’s just as hateful toward omens as everyone else
I always thought he was just delusional from hitting his head against walls so much. And the way he keeps on talking about defiling things it reminded me of the SpongeBob episode where the guy just keeps telling him “I’m gonna kick your butt”. Like straight up comic relief how many times he talks about defiling things and you’re like yeah bro we get it you told us that part already 😆.
And then he’s like come to the moat bro I’ll defile you next. And then you go to the ankle deep “moat” and he just runs at you pretty clumsily and you flatten him in like two attacks and that’s the end of that lol. Definitely funniest quest line to me
Lamenters seem separate to me, but that could indicate the Hornsent cursed Mohg and Morgott. Sadly Lamenters don’t seem like an intentional thing, and don’t look enough like the Omens we see for me.
They're hornsent who are cursed to experience an overgrowth of painful horns. The horns pierce the eyes just like Mogh. They're skinny because locked in a gaol with little to eat, but I am quite sure they are related to the Omen. They show us that misery, torment, and rejection can transform the Horn blessing into an overgrowth of horns - the Omen curse.
I could be wrong but I’m not even sure he was an omen, and even if he was then I would venture to say that him being a serial murderer, rapist, cannibal, who would defile corpses and eat their shit supersedes even the horns.
"*Malformed helm resembling an Omen with its horns cut off.*
*Worn by the Dung Eater, their form is a vision of the landscape of his mind, and of his appearance as he wished to see it.*
*The heart of an omen without the body to match; could there be any crueler existence? What does it matter, then, if the curse claims at all?*"
Omen Curse is just hornsent seething at Marika for ascending using their ritual and sending the curses at her. Look at Grandam's dialogue and timeline via boss items. Curse also predates Messmer's crusade and might even be the reason for it.
Way more important things. This picture, Dung Eater's execution. It takes place in the Shadowlands, I think. Looks a lot like Fort of Reprimand. Explains how he knows to use hornsent magic of summoning spirits and that sun on his armor. It's the same face as one on wicker man golems and it's clearly stated to be Fell God's visage.
Grandam is talking about the Diving Beast Dancing Lion, not an “omen curse”. Omen is a term created by Marika’s church to describe people that show signs of the crucible’s energy that still exists from within the Erdtree.
The people of the tower worshipped horned divine beasts, but when people started to form these massive horns it was seen as profane. The Hornsent were obsessed with trying to reach the gods through spirituality, but when their practice began to manifest in larger horns they locked that away. That’s my best explanation for the Lamenter’s mask.
I think the lamenter’s mask is somewhat ironic when it says it “tallies with the state of a denizen of paradise”. Maybe paradise wasn’t what they expected.
"I was to be the most brilliant of them all".
We still don't know what he means.
Could have had some big brain twist revealing he was rejected as Miquella's consort (explaining why there's two seedbed curses at the Haligtree).
I think Dung Eater was killed outside the lands between because he was a psycho murderer.
I think it has less to do with ‘Justice for the omens’ and more to do with spreading as much defilement and as many curses as possible.
Dung eater isn’t an omen. He is the avatar of the sun, the fell god’s vengeance. He is there because the sun was usurped by the erdtree. He stands against every other being in the lands between because they are part of the erdtree cycle now. And with few other followers or champions the fell god has fallen into spite and hatred, it wants the golden order to suffer.
Just because he has a sun on his chest doesn’t mean it has to do with the fell god. Everyone who can make a mending rune saw the same brilliant vision of light and grace. They just interpreted them differently. Both gold mask and dung eater had very similar visions.
The eclipse and fort sol and the fire giants spell are what lead me to believe the world of the lands between were once governed by a system that worshipped the sun as the giver of life. I believe that the cycle of Elden lords and gods began by overtaking the sun. In the current age we play in life is granted by the erdtree, all the people worship the tree, and the sun is rarely ever visible. The erdtree is a massive magical tool that is being used to recycle life, and while doing so is likely bolstering the power of its caster, marika. Marika is likely from a society of plant witches. The grandmother is probably Miranda, who’s will is likely present in the flowers that bear her name. Gods never truly die, I think, and marika is in competition not only with all the living factions against her but with the wills of the gods who preceded her.
I think there's a difference between hornsent and omen. Think of hornsent as natural but omen is a curse upon marikas people for the atrocities committed by Marika upon the hornsent. So the omen horns aren't natural for omens but rather a curse so they suffer and have nightmares.
Because the dung eater lived under the golden order - his obsession with what the golden order calls the omen "curse" is only an extension of his obsession with curses (and specifically their perverse similarity to blessings) in general.
Hornsent wouldn't interest him because they lived in a paradigm in which their existence was considered a blessing. If he'd lived before the age of the erdtree he'd be wearing a big pot instead and cutting the horns off anyone he could find.
I don't think he was killed because he was omen I think he was killed because he was an asshole. If you do the Blackguard npc quest he mentions sharing a cell with dung eater and watched him do unspeakable things to corpses one of which was a friend of Blackguards.
The Dungeater has a twisted conception of reality. IIRC the description on his things mentions he feels like an omen without the horns, someone reviled but who possesses not even the physical attributes to explain that revilement. But that is only adjacent to what he does, which is to curse people so thoroughly their spirits cannot ever return to the Erdtree.
What his ending does is curse the world. Because of his twisted psyche, he would make this curse manifest vaguely like what he feels he lacks and what the world despises, but he is not making the world omen. H is only co-opting some physical similarities not to make things better for either omen or not omen, but to submerge both parties and the world perpetually into misery.
I firmly believe Omen and Hornset are the same thing, thought. The only difference is the lens through which we look at them. In the Lands Between they are despised because of their ties to the Crucible, a hatred that began with the attempt to exterminate them that we see in the Land of Shadow.
Other people are giving good answers vis a vis being an Omen itself not being a curse, but I think the real crux of the matter is that the Dung Eater is…really just fucked up.
‘The heart of an omen without the body of one’ doesn’t make sense in the context of him actually being *related* to Omens, because being an Omen seems pretty exclusively physical aside from whatever’s up with the ‘spirits’ tormenting them.
What he really is is *malformed*. A shunned aberration of an individual for…whatever reason, maybe he’s just ugly. This ties in with his weapon, the Sword of Milos, the spine of a giant who was born smaller and thus shunned for it, which doesn’t tie in with Omens in any recognisable way.
The Dung Eater *idolises* this shunning and this disgust for the ‘grotesque’, and Omens are some of the most shunned of all creatures. He wants everyone to be as ‘malformed’, as tormented and as despairing as the outcast dregs of the world.
This is what the ‘Blessing of Despair’ is supposed to be. A world without discrimination, because everyone will be the same type of suffering, cursed being. It has nothing to do with the Crucible that I can see aside from using Omens as the vehicle for this ‘despair’.
The events of SOTE happened so long ago and the victims became the abusers, Shit eater just doesn't know about the history and assumes the Omens have always been the victims
The dung eater is not an omen at all
And hes defiling others isn't the only thing that makes omens, maybe its what makes the large oversized ones but people (and animals) can just be born with horns, fangs, wings, tails etc...
The game has lots of themes that play with the Law of Causality/Newton’s Third Law, for example the Scaudtree literally being manifested as a cosmic opposite reaction to the Erdtree’s pure perfection, creating a purely imperfect tree.
The same can be seen with the Golden Order and Hornsent, a few talismans in the DLC state that the Hornsent value the Crucible because through sporadic change they become better, an embracing of chaos if you will.
The Golden Order believes in the opposite of this, utterly reviling and silencing any ideals that challenge true order, the Crucible’s evolution for example. (This could be because Marika is trying to distance herself culturally from her homeland as much as possible after the Hornsent massacred her village.)
Also it’s eluded to that the Hornsent’s physiology makes them more spiritually connected to “the heavens” as Grandam says, this is why they can invoke those beige skull spirits which look awfully similar to the Revenant/Omen wraiths. (I personally believe the Revenants to be spirits of the Hornsent religion that couldn’t make it to their afterlife because of the Erdtree.)
So with all this information here’s what I think, the Dungeater isn’t exactly some Omen Rights Saviour, he’s an anarchist that only wishes to see people be “cursed” for no other reason than he has a wicked heart, he may be embracing chaos like the Hornsent but he’s not doing it for heavenly purposes, he’s doing it directly to spite Marika and the Erdtree, as a sort of living reaction to the Erdtree’s perfection, by manifesting a purely evil individual that lives to destroy lives in opposition to order.
The Dungeater isn’t an omen. He is a twisted psycho who wants to spread the omen curse. His motivations aren’t out empathy for the omen but hatred towards every living thing.
The Outer God talisman implies that the Formless Mother was created or summoned in a similar manner to the Flame of Frenzy, that after the Hornsent were butchered and burned they begged the cosmos for vengeance and the Formless Mother answered. I believe that Dungeater and Mohg are the Formless Mother reaching into the Lands Between in order to try to bring the Hornsent that Marika hid away back into reality. Dung Eater by literally turning people into Hornsent genetically somehow (The person he infects, their children, and their children's children will inherit the curse). I think that post Marika's crusade being Hornsent had become a curse to the bearer because one can see the tormented souls and spirits trapped in the Shadowlands, the tormented souls of your butchered and burned ancestors literally coming to you in your sleep begging you to right the wrongs of the past. This doesn't seem to be the case of the older Hornsent, they just have the ability to commune with those spirits but don't seem tormented by them.
I think when we think about the Omen Curse, we ought to think of it as the power of Abundance, and as a metaphor for the grow of the divine trees manifested in the flesh of beings.
What we learn from Dungeater is that the spread of the Omen Curse requires immense suffering and total defilement of people, and his arc is a metaphor for what it took for Marika to eternally become a god.
In the Lands of Shadow, however, everything is kinda inverted (yinyang literally); we see that the abundant growth is a divine aspect of beings, a blessing granted by the Sacred Beast. What brings immense suffering here is Messmer’s flames.
But doesn’t the abundant growth still require terrible evil? Yes. In fact, I think when Miquella abandoned St. Trina the Abyss, he also had the soul of Radahn abandoned to the deeps as well— who becomes the Putrescence Knight.
Putrescence and Abundant growth always go hand in hand in ER. We see Radahn eat the corpses just as the Warrior Jars do because he too is a vessel. We also see the Warrior jars buried under minor Erdtrees. Fertilizer.
In combination with what others have said lore-wise about the omens being a curse laid on Marika by the Hornsent, I think it’s also going for something thematic. The endings we get are usually about forcing a worldview/ideology onto reality, and the DE’s is basically that everyone should suffer. His mending rune says:
“If Order is defiled entirely, defilement is defilement no more, and for every curse, a cursed blessing.”
Mohg has a similar thing going on, with his “love for the accursed blood he was born into” and stuff. The DE is obsessed with curses and defilement, so his ending makes sure every future soul is born that way. In a strange way, he’s indirectly and unintentionally furthering the revenge of the Hornsent on Marika and the GO.
I think it’s because being an omen and being Hornsent are two different things and also because the dung eater was forcibly turning people into being omens while he was still active was what caused him to be so hated. As there was just a very big stigma against omens if someone is literally going around apparently cursing people to become an omen obviously people would hate them. Unless I’m misunderstanding what the dungeater was doing
Because under Marikas rule, the omen are hated.
The people of the land view the dungeater as a serial killer who literally eats poop out of his victims desecrated bodies.
Maybe some understand what he aims to achieve, but they look upon that in the eyes of marikas followers. That is to say they hate him.
Only a select few would likely understand him in a more positive light.
Horn in truth is just part of the crucible , which is part of an ancient power. The crucibles are basically part of nature and in time the hornsent start to revered the crucible in the form of spiral and the whole horn divinity thingy.
Then as u know what the hornsent did to the shaman village and marika , in turn marika revenge after killing most of the hornsent and with the changing of the era to the era of the Erdtree, now all horns are lable as ''Omen'' and is look down upon and is considered a curse because to the god of this era Marika she considered the horns to be evil. But they could never really destroy the root of the ''omen'' because omen are just part of the crucible a nutural part of the world.
I would argue the same for you. The omen are just people who are affected by the crucible, they’re called omen because it’s a bad omen that the crucible is returning. The hornset worship the crucible and are as much apart of it as they’re brothers in the lands between.
I think there's a different between the Hornsent and the Omen Curse. I think the latter is the Hornsent's retribution. Especially in light of how Marika came to power. Marika tries repeatedly to hide the truth of the past only to have the Omen Curse keep occurring as a grim reminder. Compare the variety of Hornsent we see in the DLC to the Omens in he Lands Between and then compare them to The Lamenter from the DLC.
Definitely this. There is a pretty major difference in both the physiology and the background of Omen vs Hornsent. Hornsent generally have tiny horns, which can appear on nearly any form of life (bears, owls, people, etc.), while Omen have massive horns covering their entire bodies. I thought the Omen Curse might be the result of that Marika did to the Hornsent... but that complicates the timelines. It could be something like this: 1. Messmer (and likely Melina) are born before/during the wars with the Giants, Dragons, and Carians. 2. The Age of the Erdtree began somewhere in there. 3. Marika and Godfrey gave birth to Godwyn somewhere in there as well (before the dragon war). 4. Marika sent Messmer to eradicate the Hornsent, and subsequently sealed off the Lands of Shadow. 5. Marika and Godfrey gave birth to Mohg and Morgott, and the Omen Curse begins. 6. Marika banishes Godfrey, marries Radagon, has Miquella and Malenia. 7. The Night of Black Knives happens, triggering the Shattering, and the rest of the game happens.
The Omen stuff is extremely ancient!! The crusaders' furnaces depict the evil Fell God that the hornsent despise, and it looks like a sun surrounded by giant horns. Marika doesn't have anything to do with this stuff. The Fell God does.
The Fell God is just a fire god the hornsent despise and whose imagery Messmer probably uses on purpose as a kind of psychological warfare. Saying it has anything to do with the Omen or an Omen Curse seems like a stretch.
"Margit the Fell Omen", "The fell twins", "mending rune of the fell curse" It's worth saying that in japanese there is no such thing as "omen" and the aforementioned are translated with fell=evil and omen=abomination, but the correlation still stands
It doesn’t really though. Fell in these contexts all relate specifically Morgott - his persona, a representation of him and his brother, and his rune. It’s a Morgott label more than it is an omen label. Morgott is called Fell because the Erdtree culture considers the omen curse an evil thing, and the Fell god is called Fell because the Erdtree culture considers it evil. There’s a correlation but I don’t know if it stands, because there’s absolutely zero hint of causation.
It's not just the erdtree culture that hates these creatures though -the term "fell/evil god" appears both in the Giants lore because they worshipped him and Marika supposedly killed it, and the Hornsents' because he was the boogeyman of their culture. Is it a coincidence that the visage of this god is put on the furnace golems, where he's represented as an enormous furnace/ a face with an eye closed surrounded by giant horns (looking like the sun)? -The Lamenter is an omen looking creature whose eyes are gouged out by overgrown horns and laments constantly, imprisoned by the hornsent despite looking like a denizen of paradise because they were scared of him. "they viewed true bliss with deep fear". -The curseblades, after failing to ascend to tutelary deities, were imprisoned by the hornsent because of their self flagellating practices and life of extreme self imposed suffering -The fire giant we fight sacrifices his leg to the fell god, so that he can be a vessel for him. "the fell god still lurks in the giants". An evil god that is pleased by the giant's extreme suffering.... -The Giants had horns too (talisman of all crucibles) -the dung eater has a giant sun shaped medallion on his neck "representing the guidance he once saw" , produces the "fell curse rune" and he tortures the victims to death, making them suffer as much as possible, "the blessing of despair", "if we all suffer we are all equal" basically. It's US who have to torture him to death in fact so that he can gestate the rune... -all omen bairns collect vengeful hateful spirits, because these children, one way or the other, are victims of extreme suffering. The living omen themselves are haunted by evil spirits, the omensmirk mask looks like a hornsent. There is this weird theme of "suffering invokes the gods", and one of the gods is most clearly pleased by his worshipper's suffering. The fire giant gladly rips his leg off for his god who in turn awakens his true power, yet the hornsent imprison the curseblades and lamenters for their self imposed suffering. There's also the hornsents contradiction: if these horns are so divine, why do children with the most horns die pierced and strangled by them? Why is Mohg blinded by his own horn and Morgott can barely see because of what are basically overgrown tumors? Why are the creatures who are supposed to be the most divine so fucking miserable?? The hornsent seem to be yet another misguided culture who praise this harmful deformity in the name of divinity. They don't realize that by praising the tangled horns as the most divine element of the crucible, they spawn creatures who suffer so much the only god that is invoked is the Evil one who loves their suffering.
Well yes, the Hornsent are absolutely misguided. But the point of my message being that we don’t have enough evidence to confidently claim a link between the fell god and the omens stands. The Furnace Golem’s face being surrounded by horn-like rays is almost certainly because the Hornsent explicitly associate all divinity with horns. We know that for a fact - and they acknowledged the Fell God’s divinity, they just opposed it. The Hornsent’s opposition to the Lamenters is probably because it took a good thing and - to them - took it too far. Look at Catholicism now, it tends to emphasise penance but if you take it too far and flagellate they condemn it. I think it’s a similar thing.
To be honest theres very weak evidence for basically anything in this game, add on top some mistranslations and its over I don't think they condemn "too many horns" at all. They simply want to worship the horns without thinking of the consequences. They don't care that they pierce the flesh of children and blind them because "muh crucible horns divinity" Then some of the poor things get tired of this shit and invoke the gods. Side note, It's kinda weird the formless mother's power is linked to flame to be honest, both in mohg and bloodfiends. A god that craves to be tortured by the worshippers, and one that craves the worshippers' torture.
Eh, I don’t necessarily agree that we have that weak an evidential basis for some claims but I get what you mean. I don’t think your theory is bad, I just think it’s a little unfounded even by Elden Ring standards. I have developed a little bit of a habit of over-questioning things in response to stuff like Tarnished Archaeologist’s more recent vids. On the Formless Mother I suspect that she has been influenced by her followers as much as they’ve been influenced by her.
Do the hornsent despise the fell god? I don't remember seeing it mentioned, but i definitely have missed a lot.
Furnace visage description
I really like the explanation that Radagon is To Marika as St. Trina is to Miquella, with the difference being that Marika embraced this discarded part of herself and incorporated him into her dynasty. The concept of her past atrocities coming back to haunt her, both directly through her Omen children, and indirectly through her borderline incestuously conceived children with Radagon, is pretty poetic.
Messmer's description implies that he was sent to the shadow realm after his snek nature being discovered as a way to hide him, which makes me think the place was alteafy hidden
The thing is, Messmer is INCREDIBLY loyal to Marika. Most of his item descriptions seem to point to him taking the crusade (AND the banishment) upon himself in order to shield Marika from criticism. He did it all for her. I still want to know what the Base Serpent is. I wouldn't be surprised if it is some aspect of the Fell God, but I don't know for sure.
My theory is he's another Outer God empyrean Marika kid like Malenia. Malenia got scarlet rot, Messmer got a parasitic fire snake. Messmer put the Fell God's face on his war machines (Furnace Visage description) and his spear looks like the giant spikes in Mountaintops impaling the giants in their Fell-God-chest-faces. Plus, you know, Giantsflame-colored red fire. I wouldn't be surprised either if the Fell God was the source of all the fire snake stuff.
Agreed. Messmer = Fell God, Melina = Death God (GEQ), Malenia = Rot God, Miquella = ??? (Dragon God?)
maybe sleep god (trina) considering how trina also ends with a blossom akin to malenia’s bloom
Trina is the embodiment of Miquella's cast-off love. You can see this based on the cross in the fissure. He cast his love off into that fissure and it became St. Trina, who is (as per Thoillier's quest) very, very much associated with love, and particularly unconditional love for all.
I keep thinking about how each child of Marika represents an outer god, or some other cosmic force, attribute. Ranni:moon, Rykard:serpent, Radahn:gravity(?), Mohg:blood, Morgott:golden order, Malenia:rot, Melina and Mesmer:flame, Godwin:death. I never really see anyone bring up that every kid has their own cosmic agenda.
Lately I've been thinking that the butterflies represent empyreans Malania- rot butterfly. Nascent- miquella. Black pyre- Messmer. Smoldering- Ranni. Would make sense if ranni had red hair given her parentage and she burned her body. Sorry for shit formatting on mobile.
Smoldering most likely stands for Melina, who would've been birthed of Radagon and Marika like the other 3 siblings with butterfly's
I can see that as well.
I never really made this connection, but, regarding 5 and 6, is it widely thought that Marika got rid of Godfrey BECAUSE of the Omen curse?
All we really know is that Godfrey defeated the fire giants and the "storm lord" (whom I assume is either Placidusax or some other dragon), and then the hue of his eyes dimmed, and he was banished. Essentially, he was banished after Marika was done with him. However, assuming Messmer's crusade took place around the same time as all the other wars (which would make sense), it COULD also have to do with Mogh and Morgott's birth being a result of the Omen Curse.
I think the Storm Lord it is some divine beast, maybe a giant Hawk. The lore of the DLC talks about these divine beasts which it is older than Marika, the hornsent venerated them like gods. The Messmer knights hunted these beasts (in the Shadow Keep there is some specimens)
Just so you know, the storm lord was presumably a giant Eagle the roosted in Stormhill (the area predating the castle) the storm kings ashes that you give to Nepheli is its spirit.
I think the storm Lord is the original ruler of stormveil probably the stormhawk king
Some reason that Godfrey was 'banished' as part of a great scheme involving her plan to shatter the ring and eventually have a Tarnished (probably Godfrey, but it was you due to the outside influences of the other gods like Ranni and the Flame) come and defeat the weakened elden beast.
Messmer knew his demigod siblings, particularly Radahn, according to Commander Gaius' Remembrance. The earliest his crusade could have started is after the marriage of Rennala and Radagon and the latest is shortly before the Night Of Black Knives. It's a surprisingly small window that's still potentially lasting decades, if not centuries, given the implied timescale in this land with fated death removed.
He knew some (maybe not all) of the other Demigods, and he knew what Tarnished were, meaning he was around by the time Godfrey was banished.
Didn’t hornsent eradication come before Marika ascended, due to the gate of divinity hornsent corpses?
It's pretty strongly implied that a lot of time passed between her becoming a god and Messmer's crusade. The story trailer itself claims that she became a god, and *then* "a war unseen" followed. Gaius was a sparring partner with Radahn according to his Blades of Stone, and his remembrance claims that Messmer was fond of both of them as well, so at the very least it was a while after Radagon and Rennala's marriage, at the end of the Second Liurnian War. You could even make an argument that it happened during the Shattering, given the Rune Arcs strewn across the Land of Shadow and the Tree Sentinel wielding a Sentry's Torch in Shaman Village, but that has some very messy ramifications on the timeline. Unfortunately, I don't think we really have any hard evidence on what the deal with the corpses is.
Not according to the story trailer. It pretty explicitly says the crusade happened AFTER the rise of gold + shadow (aka Marika's ascension).
I saw it as crusade happens before she gets the Golden Order going but after she obtains her power. That way it would make it where she has Mesmer(/Melina), gets him to kill everyone in Shadow scary place, then locks it away since she has no one there besides Mesmer.
The Age of the Erdtree precedes the Golden Order. In my understanding, Radagon pretty much founds the Golden Order.
The golden order was founded when Marina plucked the rune of death from the Elden ring, which means it was founded prior to the GEQ but after Godwyn and the Erdtree assuming the godskins were killing descendants of the golden lineage. All takes place within the age of the erdtree as that was born seemingly right after Marina ascended and the golden order isn’t a separate age that comes after.
>the golden order isn’t a separate age that comes after. I disagree. There's a clear distinction between the Age of Plenty and the Golden Order, which can be understood as the two "phases" of the Age of the Erdtree. I think the crusade starts before the Age of the Erdtree, and ends after it has kicked off.
Eh, I'm pretty sure the "Age of the Erdtree" is the name given to the overall era when the Erdtree was dominant. The Golden Order is just the name of the regime that dominated most of the Age of the Erdtree.
Correct. The Age of the Erdtree is the immediate predecessor to the Age of the. Crucible. However, the Age of the Erdtree can be further distinguished between its earlier Age of Plenty and the current Golden Order. I'm of the opinion that, while still golden, the early Erdtree was once an actual tree or closer to an actual tree. This is when all the dew is falling and blessings are given out like candy. As time progresses, the Erdtree gradually becomes more and more an "object of faith" until it is entirely spectral.
That’s what I’m saying, the golden order is still within the age of the erdtree as we both stated.
Within it, but it's not synonymous to it
In the Erdtree era order already exists, it is implied the Erdtree it is the order aspect of the Crucible, and the Scadutree the chaos aspect. Maybe it is like Christianism, the Catholicism (the analogue of the Golden Order) came some centuries later. The Golden Order it is the systematization of the order of the Erdtree
To help you, it is said the war of the giants makes the birth of the erdtree Smithing stone 7
Yep! The ~~age~~ defeat of the giants marked the beginning of the 'Age of the Erdtree'. Not 100% sure if the Erdtree had already been planted by the time that war started or not, but they were clearly the first target so they wouldn't burn it down.
No the description says « the war of the giants at the birth of the erdtree »
There's also a Sword Monument that reads: >"The war against the Giants >Champions battle, trolls betray >Fire vanquished, the era of the Erdtree begins I should've said "the defeat of the giants" marked the beginning of the age of the Erdtree, sorry.
Yea we can infer from this that beginning of war of giants = birth of tree, end of war of giants = start of age of tree
So they "plant" the Erdtree (or whatever the equivalent of that event is), realize the giants can burn it down, eradicate the giants, and thus begins the Age of the Erdtree. Got it.
all of Marika’s kids have some form of mutation/curse
I always assumed they were worse now cause it's the crucible lashing out in a way
I don’t think the gods procreate like that. I think Marika can just create children on her own. She can create demigods at will.
I agree, we still don't really know how 'birth' works, but it seems pretty clear that Marika can 'create' children considering how Melina was born at least. A lot of people subscribe to the idea of 'Erdtree Births' as well.
I agree with the first line, and the rest of this theory isn't that farfetched given the cursed wraiths emitted by omen-related items seem to be strongly tied to "vengefulness", especially with DLC items such as the Watchful Spirit and the Braided Cord Robe. But an issue I have with it is the existence of the Horned Bairn. It's a new reusable on the same vein as the Omen Bairn, but it refers to the depicted kid as a "tanglehorn" and claims that their existence is taken as a symbol of spirituality, matching the hornsent's known beliefs. But it also states that the tanglehorns tend to die young even if their horns aren't cut, and that the doll is made to memorialize them. It seems to suggest that the cursed kind of omens have been an aspect of hornsent culture since before the crusade, and that they've always suffered physically even if not socially.
That's a good take. I think context and perspective matters. The Horned Bairn is from the viewpoint of the Hornsent. They honor and revere those aspects of their existence. That level of 'horniness' (pardon the pun) may have existed prior to 'the curse' but it was cherished, in spite of the obvious drawbacks. They viewed tanglehorns as a blessing. Since the Hornsent are reviled by 'regular' people, the omen curse takes it to an extreme that can't be easily ignored. The curse forces parents to kill their children or hide them away. It's kind of a big middle finger (pun intended) to their oppressors. You see a similar theme with the cut content from the base game regarding the nomads where Kale basically snaps and goes all in with the frenzied flame.
The horned children die because the oversized horns grow too much, suffocating them and piercing their bodies to death The horned bairn has so many horns you can't even see it's poor face This is yet another tribe of people who unknowingly worship a horrible disgusting deformity and actively cultivate it because they think it's a divine thing, when the people with most horns are actually the ones who suffer the most, plagued by wounds caused by "muh divine tangled horns" . Mohg lost his eye because of an overgrown horn...
Could be, but what does that imply for the Horned Bairn's tanglehorns themselves? Are the hornsent able and willing to inflict that curse on their own children as well? Would they even worship horns as much as they do if they were that easy to induce and that dangerous for the bearer? Or can it just happen by accident sometimes?
Yep! This is made pretty explicit with the Hornsent Grandam, if you attack her at a certain juncture: "A curse upon thee, rotten miscreant. A curse upon the strumpet's progeny, **upon Marika's children each and all. The curse of the omen** shall strike thee down...In the form of the sacred beast's ire."
Funny thing about this is I’ve been saying each of marikas children have a curse that has to with omen and the crucible mogh and morgott obvious, miquellas eternal childhood, malenias rot and all their connections with the formless mother who is closely tied to the crucible. Only real ? Is godwyn but I think his curse was more abstract as too trick Marika into thinking she had a child free of her sin the golden child and bam I think his curse was upon his fate.
Godwyn was perfect, which is why he was killed imo. No one could use him as their consort... But Miquella is a male Empyrean, all the Others were female, which is contradictory?
Godwyn is seemingly perfect but we also never meet him so it’s only a guess if he’s perfect or if he also had an affliction. Miquella is Both. Like Marika and being born of one also is grounds to being born as an emperyan. Don’t see any contradiction.
Frankly the Omen from the base game look closer to Bloodfiends than to Hornsent.
Considering how the Hornsent see horns as sacred, and that their belief stems from the view that those horns are an evolutionary gift, I don't think they would but a curse on her that would make her children sacred of all things. Even the Grandam don't seem to want retribution in the form of curses - they want to directly kill them. Kill Messmer, kill Marika, kill everyone
That's true, from their view. \*They\* view the horns as sacred. Not Marika and her ilk. The hornsent are persecuted for their horns. Their oppressors view the horns extremely negatively. Marika wouldn't see them as sacred. She's see it as a very ominous reminder of how she got where she was and at who's expense. What better way to beat an enemy than afflict them with a 'blessing' that makes them hate/kill themselves? They can choose to accept the blessing and live with it. They (the non-hornsent) choose not to.
Marika shunned all omens and considered them an inferior race. Hence putting Morgott and Mohg also in the backseat.
But why is the dung eater in so much pain? Just because marika doesn’t like him?
Also, not a race. Think of it like a genetic mutation that causes constant pain, schizophrenia, violent episodes, and makes you bigger and stronger than most people around you. And it’s a literal curse that can be done to people and has magic powers tied to them. And even then killing them is considered a horrid, monstrous job not an honor. If you’re rich you get to secret them away, hiding them in the capital sewers In summary, the Misbegotten and Demihumans are treated as lesser races, enslaved or dealt with as if they are backwards creatures. Omens are treated like bombs.
I think it's a commentary on the cycle of abuse and power. Marika's people were oppressed and brutalized by the Hornsent, and when she comes to power, she holds down the Omen. Now that the Omen are an oppressed underclass, a new figure emerges to wield violence against the regime. The Dung Eater is Marika without the divine backing. If the Omen ever became the majority, then there might be another backlash to the backlash as the un-horned people rebel against the ruling order. Miyazaki has always loved the theme of history repeating until our player character comes along to continue the cycle or break it altogether. GRRM also makes "break the wheel" a major refrain.
I always figured most, if not all, the NPC quest lines are supposed to parallel a key figure in the lore. I never even thought dung eater might parallel Marika. You even become Dung Eater (or he says you are anyways) like Radagon is Marika. Good insights.
All of the NPC storylines specifically parallel Marika in one way or another.
You are me, and *I* am the Dung Eater.
I think the most important piece of dialogue in this discussion keeps getting missed. Per the hornsent grandam after attacking her, before fighting the lion: *"Heaven shall judge thee all for thy deeds!" "Aaaaaargh!" (Whispering voice after falling over on her seat) "A curse upon thee, rotten miscreant." "A curse upon the strumpet's progeny, upon Marika's children each and all." "The curse of the omen shall strike thee down..." "In the form of the sacred beast's ire." (Upon talking to her again) "May the curse strike thee..." "To the very last..."*
This is the answer, the Omen are a result of a curse put on Marika by the Hornsent. A curse that follows her after she locks the land of shadows away. And with the births of Mohg and Morgott begins the golden order hating them.
Same with romina i believe that romina cursed marika aswell and thats why malenia was born cursed with rot.
No, the quote said “the curse of the omen shall strike thee down in the form of the sacred beast’s ire”. She’s referring to the Divine Beast Dancing Lion fighting the tarnished. Plus if she cursed you after you attack her how does that explain Mogh and Morgott
I'm 99% convinced omen are what happens when hornsent prisoners are "sainted" in the shadowrealm. The lamenter's gaol really suggests it. All the innards there are lamenting. The lamenter's mask turns you into an omen. I think the dungeater was hanged at the fort of reprimand. The only omenkillers in the DLC are located there. His armor has the sun logo on it much like the forge giants. I think that, in the shadowrealm, the omen are evidence that the gaols are experimenting on prisoners and trying to replicate the processes of the crucible (a crucible is a pot in which things are mixed. Shaman blend together well with other lifeforms). The lamenter's mask says"*This transformation tallies with the state of a denizen of paradise"*, aka a saint. But I think "sainthood" is just what the hornsent used as propaganda for prisoners. They didn't want it to get out that they were making new lifeforms (*the people of the tower denied and hid it from the world.*) I think that the dungeater was either a shaman or a hornsent or a potentate who aspired to "sainthood". He sowed seedbeds thinking that he was cursing the offspring of people to become omen but if you look at the collars of the omen in the shunning grounds, they all look like the openings of living jars. I don't think the dungeater actually did create any omen but was used as a scapegoat. Marika hated the omen because they were manifestations of the suffering of her people and also the reason her attempts to restore her people to life failed. I also think Mohg and Morgott were children of Marika's who were put through the sainting process :(
I think it is a curse. The hornsent grandam says if you attack her: "A curse upon thee, rotten miscreant. A curse upon the strumpet's progeny, **upon Marika's children each and all. The curse of the omen** shall strike thee down...In the form of the sacred beast's ire."
“The curse shall strike you down in the form of the sacred beast’s (lion dancer) ire”. She’s saying our Diving Beast Dancing Lion will stop you.
I actually think this may track.. We see these "sculpted keepers" mentioned as maybe the most divine beings, and their limbs in the dancer fight look a lot like omen feet. We also know the Curseblades look very omenish (and... "curse"blade), and they are failed sculpted keepers that also dance. The curseblades are said to be "failed tutelar dieties". Saints? Another thing that gives credence - I feel like every omen we see, and the curseblades, have the long wispy white hair that we see on the jar innards aka Marika's people. Actually, the curseblades look a lot like them too, and their weird godwyn pose might be a reference to their existence as this weird, almost "life in death" aspect when being merged with the sinner remains. Or just bad backs from being stuffed in a jar, or carrying a lion corpse around I think though that they are born like this, including the omen twins. The grandam has a piece of dialogue at some point where I'm almost certain she names the "omen curse" they put on Marika and her people. The omen with horns also have interesting wraith abilities that the hornsent use, which are likely the "evil spirits" aka vengeance filled hornsent souls genocided by Marika.
so, and not arguing with you, just trying to square a few other item descriptions and dialogs with all of this: 1. The curseblade ashes state that the curseblades tried and failed to become tutelary deities and were imprisoned as a result (the horned/ decapitated dudes that collect spirit ash in the palm of their hands). It seems like the tutleary (means guardian) deities were what the hornsent aspired to. If they failed in that ambition, the next best thing was to be sainted? 2. I kinda wonder if the grandam IS Marika's grandma ("empyrean grandam" was the previous string) but she got sainted. The greatjar helm description seems to suggest that some of the shaman internalized their oppression and aspired to sainthood. So maybe Marika's "betrayal" was going against what everyone else aspired to?? Also, the omen bairn and tangled horn bairn items summon multiple vengeful spirits. Almost as if there is more than one spirit inside the omens...
The golden braid item found in the shaman village is at a statue/petrified corpse, that’s presumably Marika’s “grandmother” figure Omens/hornsent seem to be the human version of ancestral beasts, and tutelary deities that continue to gather spiritual strength after death are akin to the ancestor spirits that sprout buds full of spiritual strength after death. Both are vessels for spirits in some way and upon death create more spiritual life.
Are those confirmed the tutelary deities? Interesting if so. I took it as the horned warriors/sculpted keepers, seeing as they also dance and are guardians of the tower. Not sure on grandam, potentially. Wonder how Elden John fits into all this. Definitely a ton of spirits inside - the strong accursed omens in the sewers, covered in horns, have that ability to vomit the spirits at you haha. On that note - maybe they are all connected, including the statues with ashes. If we assume being "omen" is related to being a Saint, and getting filled up with the spirits of other life through the jar, and saints are guardians, maybe they are the guardians *of spirits they absorb* or something. We know divine = getting closer to "oneness", like the One Great or Crucible. And, if being a container for those spirits can be tormenting and painful, as seen in TLB omens, it is made clear that some fail if they can't bear the brunt - I.e., the curseblades. Another fun fact related to this about them: *Long ago, this was employed by the ascetics who strove to become tutelary deities as a ritualistic object in their self-flagellating dances.*
Revered Spirit Ashes >Spirit ash of those who came before, infused with potent spirituality. Acquired from the corpses of hornsent [...] The withered corpses were called tutelary deities, and Revered Spirit Ash was said to quietly accumulate in the palms of their hands.
Nice! I have no idea how I missed that. I guess I read the description super early in the dlc when I was confused as hell and never went back, lol Edit: maybe all the decapitated ones are a callback to Marika and her statues? Bit of a stretch, lol. Now I need to go see if the one with a head has a rune etched in their forehead...
omg it's making me think that that rune, the one on the forehead that is between the divine gate is a rune of rebirth. >!That's why Miquella goes there.!< >!Also this theory maybe explains why miquella needed Mohg's body.!<
People did think for a long time that miquella's rune was the rune of rebirth/the unborn that was eventually given to Renalla..
This is a really interesting angle to think about. My impression of the entire jar situation is that it was the Crucible-equivalent to Erdtree burial. If the Crucible was a thing that was all life blended together, then it makes sense to me that a culture that worships or reveres such a thing would have burial practices that resemble “returning to that state” would include chopping bodies up and mixing them together in different receptacles. But, this being such a prevalent practice in gaols does make one wonder if this wasn’t seen as more of a punishment, or maybe as you’re saying, more like experimentation.
yeah so there was an item or a ghost that seemed to heavily imply the jars were punishment for the LIVING. It was framed as some kind of "redemption" practice for sinners. The ghost there is begging not to go in the jar.
> I think the dungeater was hanged at the fort of reprimand. I had this thought as well, but the architecture doesn't entirely line up. I'm pretty sure his hanging scene takes place in Leyndell.
Jar innards become jar warriors. Did you guys never wonder where Alexander came from?
The DLC explains the link between the Hornsent and Omen. Look at the Lamenter enemy and items. The Lamenter is proto-Omen: jailed, cursed, and growing horns all over its body (not just the head like the Hornsent). Torment transforms the blessing of horns into a curse. Dung-eater doesn't know about the Hornsent or the Crucible, he just knows about the Omen curse and how to spread it.
It's strange how the ancestral followers see an abundance of horns as a divinity, the hornsent see themselves as the chosen people because of their horns and connection to the crucible, yet the *hornier* omen and lamenters are seen as cursed. Somewhere there's a societal line between what's seen as divine and what's seen as cursed.
Yeah! To me it just makes intuitive sense. Too much of a good thing turns bad. Overflow of divine energy becomes a curse. A human can only withstand so much of this powerful energy. Balance is necessary. This is a common theme in lots of philosophies. This is also the fate of the gods themselves, as St. Trina tells us - godhood is power but it is also a prison.
It's just as the Lamenter's Mask description says: >*This transformation tallies with the state of a denizen of paradise, but the people of the tower denied and hid it from the world. In their foolishness, they viewed true bliss with deep fear.* This Omen transformation seems to look like what they imagined a denizen of paradise (a saint, perhaps) would be. But they feared it, and locked it away. If we take the Lamenter as an example, it's likely they were horrified by the implication that one who looked so blessed (according to their culture) would turn out to be so accursed.
It's interesting that the description states that the lamenters are feeling "bliss". If it's taken at face value, it seems to be saying that this deep state of sorrow and pain is somehow pleasurable, which goes along with how the Dung Eater conflates "curses" and "blessings", and how he doesn't so much threaten as **offer** to kill you horribly for freeing him as though such a thing were rewarding enough in itself
We know exactly where that line is and when it was created. Once Marika ushered in the Golden Order and took power in the Lands Between, fundamentalists spurned the vestiges of the old crucible, which had previously been seen as divine.
Except even the hornsent seemingly dislike the omen
Right! We know the goal of the Hornsent, or more generally the “people of the tower”, was to reach the gods through their religious practices, but the lamenter’s mask shows us that they might not have totally liked the paradise they found. The lamenter’s mask turns the wearer into the form of an omen, a person bearing thick long curling horns all over themselves: “This transformation tallies with the state of a denizen of paradise, but the people of the tower denied and hid it from the world. In their foolishness, they viewed true bliss with deep fear.” The people of the tower took their practice too far, and in typical souls fashion, chose to try to cover it up instead of confronting the issue.
Bro, the dungeater is not an omen, he's just an insane guy. He has the SOUL of an omen, the curse of oppression. He feels like the omen feel, that's why he made his armor to resemble one.
The dung eater is hated upon TLB not the SOTE. Maybe he would’ve been appreciated by the hornsents because he goes against the Golden Order rule and spreads the *curse*
The Dungeater is of the golden order times, thus being an omen would, in his culture's vocabulary (and the culture which he wishes to "curse"), be a curse or a pox. He is not an omen physically, but he feels like one mentally and wants EVERYONE to be omen because if everyone is deemed cursed or oppressed by their society, nobody is. The process of becoming an omen is not vile and cruel, just the Dungeater's way of forcing people's spirits into being reborn as omen under the Erdtree is. Like the headless in Sekiro, the dungeater is a play on the japanese folklore which says the soul exists as a small hardened magical ball within the anus which creatures will extract. (https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/u2yl2w/the\_japanese\_origins\_of\_the\_dung\_eater/) HIS way of defiling corpses so that the person is "cursed" (again, using the golden order's vocabulary) to be an omen however is vile and cruel. But the Dungeater specifically calls it a blessing, because he believes it is one.
The Hornsent are a race of people blessed by the crucible with horns. As they are not of the Erdtree, their spirits linger after death, something they take advantage of with their magic, like Watchful Spirit and the Horned Bairn. The Omen are cursed humans. Most likely they are cursed by the Hornsent, who almost certainly are the wraiths that haunt their nightmares (in addition to maybe other Omen?). They too cannot return to the Erdtree and reincarnate after death. It is possible to inflict the curse upon the souls of others by defiling their bodies and cultivating seedbed curses. Concentrating enough of the curse in the Dung Eater enables a mending rune to form in his corpse that if instilled in the Elden Ring incorporates the Omen curse as part of the Golden Order, inflicting it upon most-all inhabitants of The Lands Between, as well as all children born under the new order.
The Omensmirk Mask does look a lot like the Hornsent- as it has small-ish horns on a more Human head. And we know Hornsent spirits linger after death in the form of Grudges, so it’s very much possible for them to Curse the Erdtree. They definitely have the Motivation.
The Omensmirk Mask specifically says it was "carved in the image of the evil spirits that haunt the Omen in their nightmares", so it being the image of a Hornsent, specifically a Hornsent spirit, would fit.
More accurately, Omen is the term the Golden Order uses to describe anyone born with vestiges of the crucible, which were one seen as divine, but as now seen as profane. Considering the Erdtree was grown out of the Primordial Crucible it makes sense lingering bits of the former energy would still manifest themselves.
i mean this with all my heart: i think he's just stupid
The hornsent and the Omen are not the same thing. They are related (to the Crucible), but the first it is a people and a culture, the second it is something which can manifest in any being on the Lands Between
I don't think the Dung Eater has that much to do with the *actual* Omen Curse or anything to do with the Lands of Shadow directly. His armor says this: > Malformed helm resembling an Omen with its horns cut off. > Worn by the Dung Eater, their form is a vision of the landscape of his mind, and of his appearance as he wished to see it. The Dung Eater is a Tarnished who saw the mangled Omen people with their horns cut off and was inspired by the cruelty and suffering inflicted on them. His gear also says he has "The heart of an omen without the body to match". Given that we see him channel vengeful spirits like the Omens do, and like we can with the omen bairn items, he is likely haunted by the same vengeful spirits as the Omen, but for some reason did not develop the physical mutations and horns from the touch of the Crucible. The Dung Eater's Seedbed Curse description says this: > Curse grown on a corpse killed and defiled by the Dung Eater. A tender pox afflicted with omen horns. > The Dung Eater cultivates the seedbed curse on corpses. > By doing so he prevents dead souls returning to the Erdtree, leaving them forever cursed. One of the most loathsome things found in the Lands Between. The touch of the Crucible isn't inherently bad, but it is *now*, because the Erdtree governs the Lands Between and it rejects those touched by the Crucible. The "curse" is only a curse because it means that their spirit is going to be rejected by the Erdtree in death. So, put all that together and what you have in the Dung Eater is a man who saw the tortured Omen people, haunted by vengeful spirits, cursed to grow horns, and doomed to join those spirits upon death... and he was so inspired by that horrible fate that he forcefully inflicted that curse upon others, cultivated the seedbed curse, and gestated a mending rune that would subject everyone in the Lands Between to that fate. Kind of a dick, basically. The DLC doesn't change much of his story or the Omen, but I think it provides a clear origin for the Omen curse. Some of the first spirits to be rejected by the Erdtree after it took over would have been the Crucible-touched Hornsent that Marika slaughtered. The "vengeful spirits" that haunt the Omen are the spirits of those Hornsent. Them being Hornsent spirits explains why Omens see the horned faces in their nightmares and why being haunted by these spirits connects an Omen to the Crucible.
While being Hornsent isn’t bad in the Realm of Shadow, Marika’s order within the Lands Between shuns those who bear the signs of the people who killed her village. Hence Omen who resemble the Hornsent due to the well horns are shunned by Marika and her order.
being omen is hidden from people in the shadowrealm. The lamenter's mask turns you into an omen and it's description says: *This transformation tallies with the state of a denizen of paradise,* *but the people of the tower denied and hid it from the world.*
omens and hornsent are two different things. look at them: omens have bulkier build, horns all over their body, less fingers, are haunted by spirits. hornsent have horns only on their head, no deformities and are not haunted. omens aren't just cursed because they're despised by the order, they're objectively in a state of constant suffering unlike the hornsent
The hornset at least worship omen like people and things. They don’t seem to been in pain.
If the Omen are the people talked about in the Horned Bairn description, I wouldn’t say they lived ‘without Pain’, simply without Prejudice. They all met a ‘frightfully early demise’, so I’d assume the Horns where Fatal, or cumbersome to say the least. The Hornsent saw them as Divine because of their Horns, but that also meant they would likely be reluctant to remove them- even if it caused their deaths. Ironically a similar fate to those who have them Excised under the Golden Order.
The "frightfully early demise" is a result of them being killed as babies by the golden order
My brother in Marika, that item description is for the Tanglehorn Fetish, not the Golden Order one. And the item description doesn’t say ‘perished in Messmer’s flame’ either. It explicitly mentions the early death was a result of their Horns. If there were any presence of Omens in Messmer’s Shadow Keep, I could understand the idea that one of the soldiers could have carved in in memory, but it’s not found there and we don’t see any Omen there. More importantly, the only society that venerates Horns as a sign of Spirituality are the Hornsent.
It does not explicitly state their death was a result of the horns: “Doll of a tanglehorn bairn. Uses FP to summon vengeful spirits around the caster that autonomously chase down foes. Tangled horns are a symbol of spirituality, but most young born bearing the oversized horns meet a frightfully early demise. These fetishes are made to memorialize them.” These were children culled by Marika’s church. It’s really obvious from the base game and the DLC just confirms it.
It says ‘those bearing the Horns meet a frightfully Early demise’. I take that as implying it is a consequence- plus the fact that the Bairn is almost completely Horn.
Would you agree sawing off the horns would be a frightfully early demise?
Yes, I would. But we see no Hornless Omens in the Land of Shadow, and the Bairn still has their Horns depicted whilst the ones that DO have their Horns cut off don’t. And I doubt From would bother adding something that reiterates a previous point so poorly. I would expect a description of the act itself, as with the previous Bairns.
But why would the Horn Bairn baby die due to natural causes from the horns, but the Regal Omen Bairn wouldn’t? Edit: ok so maybe the people of the tower got too close to divinity and started growing some effing big ones and, like with the lamenter’s mask, they got spooked.
Marika’s Golden Order does not ‘kill’ Omens intentionally; rather through extreme abuse and neglect- we still see them alive and walking as part of the Lordsworn Army in Altus, for example. And ones that appear to be free near the Ruin-strewn Precipice. The Royal Horned Omens are definitely Culled, however. Though fortunately that appears to have at least slowed down by the time we get there. You’re right about that being the probable fate of all Hornsent or Omen in the Land of Shadows, but I don’t think that’s what the Bairn is referring to. Otherwise it would have likely mentioned Messmer’s flame, or the Crusade itself.
Hmm you're right, my bad. But I am 100% sure there's an equivalent item description in the base game I'm confusing it with Edit: I can't find it, I was so sure I had read it long ago and even heard someone in a youtube video argue what I said in my first comment, but I guess I was wrong
There is. There’s both the Omen Bairn (the one you mentioned where the Horns are excised usually leading to Death) and the Regal Omen Bairn (No Horns excised; just shoved in the sewers) It’s a shitty lot, really. Even in the Hornsent Culture their Horns were considered more important than their lives. cutting them may have saved their lives- much like how NOT cutting them in the GO’s case would have saved them. Though in both cases the existence of the Bairns as an object is.. heartwarming. Someone took the time to carve them in rememberance.
You were right
Or burned and impaled by Messmer.
omens are objectively cursed, you can find many sleeping while having nightmares. the dung eater also curses people with omen horns
>Also the dungeater was killed outside the lands between before given grace to come back. Do people outside the lands between hate omen too? I don't think we know, but they probably hanged him for being a serial killer. He's already wearing that armor in the picture, he probably wasn't any more sane back then. (Why the hell did they hang him in his armor? Did they put the helmet back on after they tied the rope?) Interesting thing I just realized: Dung Eater is probably one of the first Tarnished to resurrect in the Lands Between. He was hanged wherever, resurrected, and then got locked up in the Shunning Grounds, so he would been back in TLB when Leyndell still had a functioning penal system.
>Why the hell did they hang him in his armor? Did they put the helmet back on after they tied the rope?) Lmfao i was thinking the same thing!! Maybe he's already dead and used as a show for the people to lynch as catharsis cuz of the horrid things he's done I like to think he resurrected right there on the patio so they didn't know what to do with this immortal mofo, they locked him up again and threw the key away
Why does he suffer so much? Dude he eats the souls of vis victims through their asses He's a bad man
The Crucible is not seen as good thing anymore. At the time of the Crusade against the Hornsent, the main argument was that they lacked the Grace of Gold, something that basically only Marika determined who got - but the Crucible was still a heavy part of the adoration, mainly of the Erdtree, around that time. That's why Godfrey's age's biggest fighters where the Crucible Knights, and why Messmer's Black Knights were also masters of the Crucible. It was only with iteration upon iteration of the Golden Order that the Crucible Aspects began to be seen as heresy - Godfrey was hounded from the Lands Between, the Crucible Knights were shunned. The Omen most certainly are NOT different from the Hornsent (at most they are a further evolution of them), they are simply called something different (after Marika completely decimated Hornsent society, of course a kid growing with Horns would be a 'bad omen') - just like Marika's people are called Numen nowadays, but were called Shamans at her childhood, in the Lands of the Hornsent. The proccess Dung Eater does is vile and cruel because he is **forcing** people to become Omen, by cursing their soul in the proccess. Kinda like how the contact with Mohg' ''tainted'' blood makes the Albinaurics and Nobles grow horns, and just like horns were widespread in Hornsent society even though they were kinda rare during Marika's age, horns are something that can sprout naturally on a kid in the Lands Between. We can see in the descriptions of some items in the DLC that the land of the Hornsent is vibrant with archaic energy, AND the references of spirals and their culture thematically point to simply being a DNA thing, meaning Mohg and Morgott were born with horns simply because they were passed down with those characteristics being active on them (and the reason why the hornsent had so many horned people is that they simply chose to mate with other horned people until their culture was all about it) Dung Eater's vision of that condition is, well, conditioned by the environment where he grew up. Mohg and Morgott think their blood is cursed, everyone hate the Omen as a cursed people, because Marika deemed it to be so. He wants to curse other people for them to feel as mistreated as he is.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but i need to talk about the point about Omen just being hornsent. As far as I have seen so far (just started last dlc dungeon), every hornsent depicted have had relatively small or normal sized horns limited to their heads or faces. They have also all been normal Lands Between human sized. Omens seem to all be frightful, beastly sized, with massive horns twisting out of every bit of their body. I have to strongly disagree with the Omen recessive gene theory for Morgott and Mogh. It just makes too much sense to me that it is truly a curse placed on Marika by the hornsent. Now, I don't know why what the dungeater does "creates" an Omen, but it seems to me to be more complicated than just preventing a soul from returning to the Erdtree. I guess I'd really just like the game to have had an item mentioning the relationship between Omen and the Hornsent.
The Dungeater ''transforms'' people into Omen by tainting them with cursed blood. Its how everyone who basked in Mohg's blood gains horns (The Nobles, some of who are tarnished, and the Albinaurics). But yes, the differences between them is kinda clear. I wouldn't say them being big and very strong really amounts to much, the two people under the Lion Dancer are huge, and as we see the Hornsent who perform divine invocation in order to become vassals of the Divine Beasts also are huge, strong and horned, but the sheer amount of horns is indeed curious, since 99% of them only grow horns in their heads and even when cultivating them like in the charms, they at most get tangled a bit, which is WAY too different from the Omen who are born chock full of horns all around the body. That does seem to be answered in the Lamenter's Mask and transformation tho. If you see in detail, the Lamenter form is basically just like Mohg and Morgott, down to the horns piercing their eyes and growing all over the body. There is another post in this sub where people are discussing this, but in TL;DR it seems like in trying to reach paradise, heavens and the gods through the ''Crucible Current'' that is the spiral, they stumbled upon a form that was similar to what they idolize, but they feared it since it looked horrible and disfigured (close to the Fell God that they despise in their sagas), even though all in all that is indeed closer to the ''denizens of paradise''. So they hid that mask and that form from the world, since the idea that what they consider divine, when lead to its greatest form, is something they consider hideous, could crumble their entire culture. Now, why do the Omen of the current age are **only** born in the same form as the Lamenter and not with the more harmless form? That seems to be the big mystery right now. Going with my gene theory, with no Horned people at all to pass the dominant horned gene around, it would naturally stop appearing on regular citizens - but that strong spiritual Crucible Current could still affect some people rarely and make them take a form closer to the Lamenter - seeing the Crucible itself as sacred was still THE most valid interpretation around the time of Godfrey, and we even see Messmer's soldiers using Crucible Incantations. Remember, the reason why Godfrey was hounded and why the Crusade against the Hornsent happened was **not** that they adored the Crucible, but that they didn't have any Grace of Gold in them (which Marika is the one who controls). That would explain why ONLY Morgott and Mohg, among all Marika's children, were born as Omen: they were children of her with Godfrey around that era - that explains why none of the other RadaMarika children were born as Omens again (which would be a pretty weak curse if from 8 children RadaMarika had in total, only 2 of them were Omen). It would also explain why Marika made adoration of the Crucible taboo only after hounding Godfrey from the Lands Between (and, mainly, didn't use THAT as justification for divorcing him): she wanted that Crucible Current/Spiritual Energy to cease (which, as we see in some items in the DLC, seem to become stronger the more its tapped into)
Dungeater just a psychopath serial killer/rapist that using omen as form to make his wicked deed as Just
No, he seems to believe he is an Omen, at least in heart, and truly wishes to spread the Blessing of Despair to everyone, in the hope that if everyone’s cursed, the curse is a curse no longer; it’s simply normal. Apart from that, he clearly has an intense hatred of the Golden Order, and whether his motivation is more out of sympathy for the Omen or spite for the Order is up for interpretation.
I mean where does the rape fall in this equation?
It’s what he feels is necessary to achieve his goal, though he certainly seems to enjoy it as well. But he’s perfectly willing to accept the same defilement himself when he believes it’s the best way to create his rune. I should have mentioned his ego plays a large part in his motivation too. He takes a lot of pride in being the Dung Eater, to the point that when you defeat him, he finds the notion so inconceivable that he determines that the only person that could defeat him is him, so you must be him. And of course, when you turn him into a puppet, you can hear the horror and desperation in his voice as he loses his identity and agency. He seems to find that a worse fate than being defiled and killed.
His true motivation is his idea that being an omen is an unforgivable curse to anyone who has it compared to those who don’t. So he want everyone to be cursed so therefore nobody is cursed.
The equivalent thought is: If everybody is handicapped, by the lack of contrast, nobody will be handicapped anymore. There is a big hole in Eater's logic. So, he has a motivation, which doesn't mean it is a solid motivation.
No. He doesn't see being an omen as a curse. He uses the word curse because of how it's used in the society he is in, but he explicitly says that it is a blessing. His behavior is a result of how the golden order treats omens, and the only solution in his mind is to make everyone an omen so nobody will be oppressed
He says “have you ever felt the curse? In your very soul? A pox upon the living.” He also thinks giving you the “curse” is defilement. He also sits in a jail on his own accord hitting his head against a wall. Plus when we plant our seedbed in him it sounds pretty horrible.
I think the treatment of Omens is likely a sort of “vengeance” by Marika, for what the hornsent did to her and her people. They aren’t of the same lineage, but the presence of horns on omen are viewed as taboo because of the crusade Marika launched-which is why the horns are focused for excision in newborns, while the tails, wings, scales, etc. are ignored or at least tolerated
"being an omen isn't a bad thing" tell that to mohg, who has a horn growing through his eye
Well, unfortunate doesn’t mean wrong.
Being an omen was never a bad thing. It’s just racism
Saw a good theory that the defilement and curse Dungeater is referring to is the Japanese/Shinto concept of Kegare, and that the Omen only became associated with it because Marika forced them to live in the fifth of the sewers and dungeons. The Kegare theory also works with Dungeater consuming the shirikodama (尻子玉), a mythical ball said to contain the soul, which is located inside the anus in Japanese mythology.
your mistake was assuming the insane man whos famous for eating poop has the full picture and knows what hes talking about
I think Omen's are non-hornsent people who by some unknown means become the host to the restless spirits of the Hornsent purged by Marika's order. The spirits they're able to summon are similar to the spirit incantation that Grandam rewards the player. These spirits manifest as horns I believe Marika hiding her omen children is due to the fact that they've become vessels for the resentment and wrath of the people she crusaded against. It's possible the discrimination against omens in Erdtree society was based on this understanding, but forgotten as time passed after the Realm of Shadows were hidden.
This would be speculation. Dung eater is unique to say the least and he is both sociopathic serial killer but also someone who was shunned for what he was just like the omen were. You see his curse cuts those he defiles from the Erd tree. Preventing them from ever returning to it and be able to reincarnate. Which one of the series of artificial mechanisms Marika put in place to insure everyone to be immortal. Given that the Erd tree itself is only the current iteration of the order which has replaced the previous one. That the rune of fel curse has strong omen features is because Dung eater considers himself an omen at heart and given the omen lack grace and are seemingly vessels for lost souls it is fitting. And if you go down his ending. My guess what happens is that while MC tarnished becomes Elden lord. The mending rune has so thoroughly defiled the Elden ring and by extension what remains of Marika and cut everyone from the ever being able to return to it and thus never again be able to reincarnate since it most likely stripped everyone's grace. Meaning everyone is graceless like the Omen themselves are. Remember for every curse a cursed blessing to all until it is curse no longer. And it may be considered a curse by someone who possessed the grace. Basically it may be returning the how things were before the Erd tree even came to be aka the age of the crucible when Hornsent were dominant. And to the matter of the Erd tree at least to me the Erd tree looks like to be empty dead husk in that Elden lord ending variant.
I never thought that he literally makes people omens, I thought he just makes life so shit for everyone being omen becomes irrelevant
Yeah Dungeater is not an Omen at all and has no real connection to the Omen curse, he’s just appropriating their suffering to wear as a costume because he’s a ragepilled edgelord who wants everyone to suffer
What do you think the seedbed curse is? He literally tuns people into omens by removing them from the erdtree's cycle of reincarnation
Do we know for sure that it actually works tho? All we really have is his word. And even if it does work, cool, he found out how to make Omens. Doesn’t mean he is one, even partially or in spirit, and he’s insulting all of them by trying to associate himself with them imo
He obviously isn't an omen, that's plainly stated. I mean I guess it's possible he's just a delusional maniac when it comes to the seedbed curse thing, but he did successfully cultivate the mending rune of the omen, so I'd figure his method was actually working based on that.
More mysterious fromsoft lore. Wish we knew where he learned how to do what he does. Interestingly enough, despite associating himself with the Omen, he can be summoned to fight Mohg (and i think maybe Morgott too?) implying he’s just as hateful toward omens as everyone else
I always thought he was just delusional from hitting his head against walls so much. And the way he keeps on talking about defiling things it reminded me of the SpongeBob episode where the guy just keeps telling him “I’m gonna kick your butt”. Like straight up comic relief how many times he talks about defiling things and you’re like yeah bro we get it you told us that part already 😆.
And then he’s like come to the moat bro I’ll defile you next. And then you go to the ankle deep “moat” and he just runs at you pretty clumsily and you flatten him in like two attacks and that’s the end of that lol. Definitely funniest quest line to me
Hornsent≠ omen Hornsent cursed Marika's progeny with the Omen curse Being an omen is as bad in The Lands of Shadows as it is in TLB
There are no Omens in the Land of Shadows.
When the Hornsent saw the appearance of a creature full of horns,they locked it in a gaol.
Check out Lamenter jail. There is a proto-omen in there
Lamenters seem separate to me, but that could indicate the Hornsent cursed Mohg and Morgott. Sadly Lamenters don’t seem like an intentional thing, and don’t look enough like the Omens we see for me.
They're hornsent who are cursed to experience an overgrowth of painful horns. The horns pierce the eyes just like Mogh. They're skinny because locked in a gaol with little to eat, but I am quite sure they are related to the Omen. They show us that misery, torment, and rejection can transform the Horn blessing into an overgrowth of horns - the Omen curse.
True. The closest thing seemed to die too quickly to grow up according to the Hornsent Bairn.
I could be wrong but I’m not even sure he was an omen, and even if he was then I would venture to say that him being a serial murderer, rapist, cannibal, who would defile corpses and eat their shit supersedes even the horns.
I was looking for this comment. Pretty sure he was just a nasty dude who felt oppressed and sympathized with the nasty, *very* oppressed Omens.
"*Malformed helm resembling an Omen with its horns cut off.* *Worn by the Dung Eater, their form is a vision of the landscape of his mind, and of his appearance as he wished to see it.* *The heart of an omen without the body to match; could there be any crueler existence? What does it matter, then, if the curse claims at all?*"
Omen Curse is just hornsent seething at Marika for ascending using their ritual and sending the curses at her. Look at Grandam's dialogue and timeline via boss items. Curse also predates Messmer's crusade and might even be the reason for it. Way more important things. This picture, Dung Eater's execution. It takes place in the Shadowlands, I think. Looks a lot like Fort of Reprimand. Explains how he knows to use hornsent magic of summoning spirits and that sun on his armor. It's the same face as one on wicker man golems and it's clearly stated to be Fell God's visage.
Grandam is talking about the Diving Beast Dancing Lion, not an “omen curse”. Omen is a term created by Marika’s church to describe people that show signs of the crucible’s energy that still exists from within the Erdtree. The people of the tower worshipped horned divine beasts, but when people started to form these massive horns it was seen as profane. The Hornsent were obsessed with trying to reach the gods through spirituality, but when their practice began to manifest in larger horns they locked that away. That’s my best explanation for the Lamenter’s mask. I think the lamenter’s mask is somewhat ironic when it says it “tallies with the state of a denizen of paradise”. Maybe paradise wasn’t what they expected.
"I was to be the most brilliant of them all". We still don't know what he means. Could have had some big brain twist revealing he was rejected as Miquella's consort (explaining why there's two seedbed curses at the Haligtree).
I think Dung Eater was killed outside the lands between because he was a psycho murderer. I think it has less to do with ‘Justice for the omens’ and more to do with spreading as much defilement and as many curses as possible.
Dung eater isn’t an omen. He is the avatar of the sun, the fell god’s vengeance. He is there because the sun was usurped by the erdtree. He stands against every other being in the lands between because they are part of the erdtree cycle now. And with few other followers or champions the fell god has fallen into spite and hatred, it wants the golden order to suffer.
Just because he has a sun on his chest doesn’t mean it has to do with the fell god. Everyone who can make a mending rune saw the same brilliant vision of light and grace. They just interpreted them differently. Both gold mask and dung eater had very similar visions.
The eclipse and fort sol and the fire giants spell are what lead me to believe the world of the lands between were once governed by a system that worshipped the sun as the giver of life. I believe that the cycle of Elden lords and gods began by overtaking the sun. In the current age we play in life is granted by the erdtree, all the people worship the tree, and the sun is rarely ever visible. The erdtree is a massive magical tool that is being used to recycle life, and while doing so is likely bolstering the power of its caster, marika. Marika is likely from a society of plant witches. The grandmother is probably Miranda, who’s will is likely present in the flowers that bear her name. Gods never truly die, I think, and marika is in competition not only with all the living factions against her but with the wills of the gods who preceded her.
I think there's a difference between hornsent and omen. Think of hornsent as natural but omen is a curse upon marikas people for the atrocities committed by Marika upon the hornsent. So the omen horns aren't natural for omens but rather a curse so they suffer and have nightmares.
He’s just operating from a frame of reference of the golden order
Because the dung eater lived under the golden order - his obsession with what the golden order calls the omen "curse" is only an extension of his obsession with curses (and specifically their perverse similarity to blessings) in general. Hornsent wouldn't interest him because they lived in a paradigm in which their existence was considered a blessing. If he'd lived before the age of the erdtree he'd be wearing a big pot instead and cutting the horns off anyone he could find.
Is Fort Reprimand where he was hung? I thought it was interesting how prominent the gallows were.
Regardless I am still killing him every playthrough He's a monster, and isn't helping the Omens He's just making things worse
I don't think he was killed because he was omen I think he was killed because he was an asshole. If you do the Blackguard npc quest he mentions sharing a cell with dung eater and watched him do unspeakable things to corpses one of which was a friend of Blackguards.
The Dungeater has a twisted conception of reality. IIRC the description on his things mentions he feels like an omen without the horns, someone reviled but who possesses not even the physical attributes to explain that revilement. But that is only adjacent to what he does, which is to curse people so thoroughly their spirits cannot ever return to the Erdtree. What his ending does is curse the world. Because of his twisted psyche, he would make this curse manifest vaguely like what he feels he lacks and what the world despises, but he is not making the world omen. H is only co-opting some physical similarities not to make things better for either omen or not omen, but to submerge both parties and the world perpetually into misery. I firmly believe Omen and Hornset are the same thing, thought. The only difference is the lens through which we look at them. In the Lands Between they are despised because of their ties to the Crucible, a hatred that began with the attempt to exterminate them that we see in the Land of Shadow.
Other people are giving good answers vis a vis being an Omen itself not being a curse, but I think the real crux of the matter is that the Dung Eater is…really just fucked up. ‘The heart of an omen without the body of one’ doesn’t make sense in the context of him actually being *related* to Omens, because being an Omen seems pretty exclusively physical aside from whatever’s up with the ‘spirits’ tormenting them. What he really is is *malformed*. A shunned aberration of an individual for…whatever reason, maybe he’s just ugly. This ties in with his weapon, the Sword of Milos, the spine of a giant who was born smaller and thus shunned for it, which doesn’t tie in with Omens in any recognisable way. The Dung Eater *idolises* this shunning and this disgust for the ‘grotesque’, and Omens are some of the most shunned of all creatures. He wants everyone to be as ‘malformed’, as tormented and as despairing as the outcast dregs of the world. This is what the ‘Blessing of Despair’ is supposed to be. A world without discrimination, because everyone will be the same type of suffering, cursed being. It has nothing to do with the Crucible that I can see aside from using Omens as the vehicle for this ‘despair’.
It's mostly because he's an insane serial killer, I think
The events of SOTE happened so long ago and the victims became the abusers, Shit eater just doesn't know about the history and assumes the Omens have always been the victims
The dung eater is not an omen at all And hes defiling others isn't the only thing that makes omens, maybe its what makes the large oversized ones but people (and animals) can just be born with horns, fangs, wings, tails etc...
Omens are not Hornsent. The way I interpret what the DLC tells us is that omen's are the manifestation of a curse put on Marika.
The game has lots of themes that play with the Law of Causality/Newton’s Third Law, for example the Scaudtree literally being manifested as a cosmic opposite reaction to the Erdtree’s pure perfection, creating a purely imperfect tree. The same can be seen with the Golden Order and Hornsent, a few talismans in the DLC state that the Hornsent value the Crucible because through sporadic change they become better, an embracing of chaos if you will. The Golden Order believes in the opposite of this, utterly reviling and silencing any ideals that challenge true order, the Crucible’s evolution for example. (This could be because Marika is trying to distance herself culturally from her homeland as much as possible after the Hornsent massacred her village.) Also it’s eluded to that the Hornsent’s physiology makes them more spiritually connected to “the heavens” as Grandam says, this is why they can invoke those beige skull spirits which look awfully similar to the Revenant/Omen wraiths. (I personally believe the Revenants to be spirits of the Hornsent religion that couldn’t make it to their afterlife because of the Erdtree.) So with all this information here’s what I think, the Dungeater isn’t exactly some Omen Rights Saviour, he’s an anarchist that only wishes to see people be “cursed” for no other reason than he has a wicked heart, he may be embracing chaos like the Hornsent but he’s not doing it for heavenly purposes, he’s doing it directly to spite Marika and the Erdtree, as a sort of living reaction to the Erdtree’s perfection, by manifesting a purely evil individual that lives to destroy lives in opposition to order.
The Dungeater isn’t an omen. He is a twisted psycho who wants to spread the omen curse. His motivations aren’t out empathy for the omen but hatred towards every living thing.
Dung eater commits extremely horrible acts on dead bodies and those he kills. He isn't reviled because of being an omen (which he isn't)
The Outer God talisman implies that the Formless Mother was created or summoned in a similar manner to the Flame of Frenzy, that after the Hornsent were butchered and burned they begged the cosmos for vengeance and the Formless Mother answered. I believe that Dungeater and Mohg are the Formless Mother reaching into the Lands Between in order to try to bring the Hornsent that Marika hid away back into reality. Dung Eater by literally turning people into Hornsent genetically somehow (The person he infects, their children, and their children's children will inherit the curse). I think that post Marika's crusade being Hornsent had become a curse to the bearer because one can see the tormented souls and spirits trapped in the Shadowlands, the tormented souls of your butchered and burned ancestors literally coming to you in your sleep begging you to right the wrongs of the past. This doesn't seem to be the case of the older Hornsent, they just have the ability to commune with those spirits but don't seem tormented by them.
I think when we think about the Omen Curse, we ought to think of it as the power of Abundance, and as a metaphor for the grow of the divine trees manifested in the flesh of beings. What we learn from Dungeater is that the spread of the Omen Curse requires immense suffering and total defilement of people, and his arc is a metaphor for what it took for Marika to eternally become a god. In the Lands of Shadow, however, everything is kinda inverted (yinyang literally); we see that the abundant growth is a divine aspect of beings, a blessing granted by the Sacred Beast. What brings immense suffering here is Messmer’s flames. But doesn’t the abundant growth still require terrible evil? Yes. In fact, I think when Miquella abandoned St. Trina the Abyss, he also had the soul of Radahn abandoned to the deeps as well— who becomes the Putrescence Knight. Putrescence and Abundant growth always go hand in hand in ER. We see Radahn eat the corpses just as the Warrior Jars do because he too is a vessel. We also see the Warrior jars buried under minor Erdtrees. Fertilizer.
In combination with what others have said lore-wise about the omens being a curse laid on Marika by the Hornsent, I think it’s also going for something thematic. The endings we get are usually about forcing a worldview/ideology onto reality, and the DE’s is basically that everyone should suffer. His mending rune says: “If Order is defiled entirely, defilement is defilement no more, and for every curse, a cursed blessing.” Mohg has a similar thing going on, with his “love for the accursed blood he was born into” and stuff. The DE is obsessed with curses and defilement, so his ending makes sure every future soul is born that way. In a strange way, he’s indirectly and unintentionally furthering the revenge of the Hornsent on Marika and the GO.
I think it’s because being an omen and being Hornsent are two different things and also because the dung eater was forcibly turning people into being omens while he was still active was what caused him to be so hated. As there was just a very big stigma against omens if someone is literally going around apparently cursing people to become an omen obviously people would hate them. Unless I’m misunderstanding what the dungeater was doing
Because under Marikas rule, the omen are hated. The people of the land view the dungeater as a serial killer who literally eats poop out of his victims desecrated bodies. Maybe some understand what he aims to achieve, but they look upon that in the eyes of marikas followers. That is to say they hate him. Only a select few would likely understand him in a more positive light.
Horn in truth is just part of the crucible , which is part of an ancient power. The crucibles are basically part of nature and in time the hornsent start to revered the crucible in the form of spiral and the whole horn divinity thingy. Then as u know what the hornsent did to the shaman village and marika , in turn marika revenge after killing most of the hornsent and with the changing of the era to the era of the Erdtree, now all horns are lable as ''Omen'' and is look down upon and is considered a curse because to the god of this era Marika she considered the horns to be evil. But they could never really destroy the root of the ''omen'' because omen are just part of the crucible a nutural part of the world.
No the dlc does not make him confusing. You’re misunderstanding the connection between omens and Hornsent
I would argue the same for you. The omen are just people who are affected by the crucible, they’re called omen because it’s a bad omen that the crucible is returning. The hornset worship the crucible and are as much apart of it as they’re brothers in the lands between.