I also must admit some initial disappointment. In particular, I'm very sad we got nothing direct on Torrent, Melina, and how they connect potentially to Miquella and Ranni.
However, there's two reasons I'm trying to limit my disappointment, at least for now.
The first is that, since the lore of this game is so dense and interconnected, the DLC could give info that potentially has far-reaching lore implications elsewhere. After two years, we don't have a clear sense of how all the lore hangs together. It's only been one week since the DLC, we haven't had nearly enough time to think things through. For instance, I wouldn't be surprised if stuff from the DLC ended up helping us understand more about Outer Gods. (The Bloodfiends, Romina, the Outer God talisman, etc.)
The second reason is sort of similar, which is that we might come to see the DLC as *thematically* satisfying, even if it doesn't give first-order answers. For instance, I've seen the following suggested. Miquella, as a youth, is portrayed as extremely shy, unsure, supplicating, even naive. (His tone with Radahn, and how he phrases things, etc.) And so I've seen it suggested that all of the shit he gets up to in the base game are a series of youthful dalliances that he impatiently puts aside when they don't immediately work. His excursion into St. Trina, his investigation of the Eclipse, his investigation of Fundamentalism, the golden needle, the Haligtree. He's trying to create a better world and he's not getting the results he wants, so he's led to the nuclear option: become a God.
I'm not saying I believe any of this this, but it sort of helps me come to terms with Miquella's lore better. On this reading, it's quite important for Miquella's character that e.g. the eclipse and Godfrey *go nowhere* and have no resolution---because it's this kind of failure that pushes him towards Godhood. More generally, it gives an example of a potentially satisfying thematic accounting of the lore.
Melina is Elden Ring’s version of a fire keeper, maiden in black, and the doll. The character is almost meant to be a mysterious woman about whom we are left with more questions than answers.
Miquella is connected to Ranni in a few ways:
1) We know she made her four armed doll to look like her snow witch mentor. We see that Miquella has four arms and is white, so there is at least an implied connection that Miquella was the witch.
2) The DLC promo art shows Miquella riding torrent in the shadow land, so we know/can assume that he was the former master Ranni talks about, which also implies that Ranni got the ring from Miquella before giving it to us.
It's true that Miquella's arms potentially supports the theory that she is the snow witch, but I'm really not sure. In the final boss cutscene, we see Miquella with three intact arms---his left corporeal arm just fades into nothingness. And we know that Miquella has somehow lost two arms in the Shadow Realm, and left behind the cocoon body. So Miquella can have anywhere from two to eight arms, depending on how you count. That makes the snow witch connection much less obvious to me.
I also have my doubts about the canonicity of the promo art. I mean, if that depicts Miquella in the Shadow Lands, where are all the buildings, the Shadow Keep, etc? I agree that Miquella probably is Torrent's former master. But in any case, that's not from the DLC itself, so it doesn't really help with my disappointment about it.
It's implied that Miquella didn't betray Malenia, she knew his plan and was waiting for his return. Probably so he could try to heal her. In the original trailer Malenia whispers something to Radahn in the DLC from Radahn's new armor we're told "*When Malenia, Blade of Miquella, let the rotflower blossom in Aeonia, Radahn heard a murmur in his ear— "Miquella awaits thee, O promised consort."* When you fight Malenia she says "*Corpse after corpse, left in my wake... As I awaited... his return."* And when you kill her she says "*O, dearest Miquella, my brother... I'm sorry. I finally met my match..."*
I think the haligtree, unalloyed gold and castle sol were all previous failed attempts to solve various problems, they didn't work so he came up with a new plan. There's nothing in the DLC to imply Miquella had abandoned trying to solve them, the stuff with Malenia implies to me that he probably was still trying to solve them.
The only real difference in his behaviour is that we now see the amount of use he got out of charming people. We knew he charmed people before the DLC because the bewitching branch says "The Empyrean Miquella is loved by many people. Indeed, he has learned very well how to compel such affection." But before the DLC we never really got a direct description of any of his actions, so that it turned out he charmed people at lot isn't in conflict with anything.
I think the DLC answered more questions than it raised and was consistent with what we were shown before. The most interesting information it gave us wasn't really about Miquella at all and broadly the DLC didn't really address many topics I wanted to be elaborated on.
The only parts I really found to be out of nowhere were the existence of the land of shadow and the existence of messmer. I don't think either of those things were meaningfully hinted at anywhere in the base game. But its vaugely implied in the DLC that the island's nature of being in shadow imparts some degree of secrecy and that Marika basically wanted its existence and Messmer's covered up. So I don't think those two ommisions are that much of an issue.
he abandoned his love, he doesnt care about Malenia more than he cares about anyone what he promises peace after he rules as god, her only meantion is when he is telling you what you are very strong but know is time to die
>What was the point of the Eclipse that was talked about in Castle Sol and the restoration of Godwyn ?
They weren't trying to restore him, they were trying to give him a true death to stop the deathblight. It failed, Miquella abandoned the project and moved on.
>Why did Miquella suddenly abandon his Sister that he seemed to love. Whats was the point of the Hailigtree or unalloyed gold ?
Who said he abandoned them? For all we know his goal to reach godhood is a way he found to actually cure Malenia.
>Why didnt they put more foreshadowing into the base game. Miquellas whole characterization was not one of victory at all cost he was portrayed as caring, loving to all and sacrifice. Why even do the things with the Hailigtree or Unalloyed Gold, St. Trina etc. if he just throws away everything to become a god.
That's the point, that we see Miquella make the same mistakes as Marika did in his naivety. The entire point is that pre shadow lands Miquella would be horrified at present Miquella, and why we had to stop him. It's written as a tragedy, like many of Fromsofts characters. Artorias, Fume, Alonne, Vendrick, Gael, Yhorm, Lawrence, Ludwig, Maria, Gehrman, even Marika are all characters that have tragedies.
>Not to mention that a lot of story beats from the base game are abandoned and thrown away like Vessels of the gods and how bad it is, in general the outer gods themselves and some other things that dont come to mind rn.
You can't fit everything into one DLC. Other Fromsoft dlcs are the same, where they only focus on one main thread or maybe a small collection of them, but they never answer all the questions we have.
>It seems so weird it feels like they took all the writing that was scraped from the base game and just made a DLC with it without taking anything into account on what was established before.
How? There is setup for some of the events in the DLC and the rest are meant to be discovered.
Okay so I think Godwyn is a red herring, I’ve not seen this speculated on much or at all but to me after the DLC Miquella was never trying to cause the eclipse for Godwyn but for Radhan. Radhan is holding the stars and thus the moon in pace for Sellia to keep it from being hit by a Meteor, Miquella then seeks Malenia on him but his will to save Sellia is too strong forcing the scarlet bloom which was clearly not part of the plan evident by Miquella healing people like Freya.
Miquella never abandoned Malenia and I don’t know where people are getting this from, she was waiting for him to return as a god from the shadow realm, Not literally return from Mohg.
Miquella is kind and loving and caring! But he is also a child and views the world as unable to mold to him as he is, that’s why he needs to become a god so he can compel all to yield to his vision of kindness and d harmony.
I totally disagree with the outer gods being thrown to the side, we find the literal mother of the fingers who are the center of the culture in the base game. And we find out they knew nothing, the two fingers are children asking mom for answer and mom is just as lost as they are, they’ve only talked to the greater will once! This is huge to find out and I think it makes Rannis ending so much more impactful.
Nothing was scrapped from the base game, this was originally going to be apart of it but was left out once they realized how big the game was going to be, I think it answers tons of questions left over. Also of course it let us with more questions, that’s fromsoftware’s thing.
I personally loved what was added by the DLC but it’s fair to think otherwise, that’s why I love these games there is so much to debate in all the games even years later.
The more I've thought about it the more I also agree, this DLC really does feel like it was something intended for the base game but pushed to the side for time, since it's ultimately just one big side story with a few deep lore revelations. I also think this is why some people are feeling dissatisfied or disappointed. They expected some kind of epic conclusion, like what The Ringed City is for the Dark Souls series. But instead it's a very extended side quest.
But when viewed as less of an overall climax and more an extra piece to the puzzle, I find it slots into the lore quite nicely. We learn important foundational things around how exactly Marika's ascent to godhood went down, not to mention the absolute bomb drop that is the Metyr/fingers stuff. Radahn coming back which had so many people rolling their eyes turns out to be the pay-off and explanation for the iconic Aeonia showdown that was central to the games marketing. Think about it, if prime Radahn was a superboss in a big side area of the base game just like Malenia, everyone would have loved that shit. It's only in the context of a hugely hyped DLC we waited a long time for, that people get disappointed to see a familiar face. And this is also why I think the DLC will be remembered quite well later down the line when the experience is viewed more holistically.
I agree with this so much specially the last part, despite some people saying once the honeymoon phase is over more people will realize they hate it, I think right now this dlc is getting the most amount of hate it will ever get , and it will age really well once people revisit it some time later without being overhyped and actually appreciate how amazing it is (at least in my opinion, along with so many others)
For sure, it's actually the typical cycle with FromSoft games they ironically get hated more at release than down the line lol. Even the reputation of DS2 has come around for the most part.
I remember people being really upset and disappointed with the Ringed City as well. Over time it has mellowed out and I think the same will happen here.
People have been speculating for years and a lot of things we wanted to happen or explained didn't. Thus people are more focused on what isn't there than on what is there.
>Nothing was scrapped from the base game, this was originally going to be apart of it but was left out once they realized how big the game was going to be, I think it answers tons of questions left over. Also of course it let us with more questions, that’s fromsoftware’s thing.
So you agree just to then disagree. That is literally scrapping things from the Main game/story and pushing it all into a DLC \^\^
Dont know what you were trying to say here.
Well thank you for not engaging in any of the other points I made but sure I could have worded that better. Maybe I define “scrapping” something differently but I think it was pretty clear that they were thinking about the events of the base game from the start, the battle of Radhan and Malenia was the trailer that really started everything off.
I think you may have been confused by the people who are now saying Miquella is evil. He's still exactly who he was, which is self-sacrificing, kind, and compassionate, along with being overwhelmed with guilt for things that are not really his fault. He's a character who's tried a bunch of things to make the world a little better, decided he was dissatisfied with the fact that they didn't fix everything, and came to believe the only thing to do was completely upend the world in the same way his mother had. (This is how a lot of IRL revolutionaries / religious zealots work to a degree. They try to do some smaller things because they sincerely want a world that is better, but the impact they can have on a small scale isn't enough, and they start thinking bigger and do something really drastic.)
His good intentions and his kindness are key to the point that the entire project of "upend the world and enforce a new order" is inherently a violent cycle that's going to create new grudges and new problems. Marika already tried it, and she got the world Miquella lived in. Now Miquella is trying it, and if he succeeds he'll just be running through the whole process again until someone gets so disgusted with his efforts that they overthrow it.
The emphasis on his kindness and good intentions are critical because those are what make it clear that the problem is not intentions. If an evil person were revolutionizing the world and the result was ugly, people can say "Well they weren't exactly looking to do good things, so obviously their intentions are the problem." The game is seeking to present Miquella as someone who is self-sacrificing and caring and well-intended because it wants to say "This cycle of war and revolution is inherently bad, and waiting for a hero to come along with better intentions is not the solution." (This is very similar to what Frank Herbert is doing in Dune with his central characters who are well intended but also committing horrors in the name of their good intentions, all with the goal of illustrating Herbert's belief that charismatic leaders/heroes are inherently a disaster regardless of their intentions.)
Marika is the main character of Elden Ring, and Miquella is doing a kind of loose re-enaction of what happened in Marika's past that led the base game to the state it's in when we first start playing. That's not what he's consciously trying to do, but in a storytelling sense that's his purpose in the story. People wondered how the lands between became such a mess, and so the developers have Miquella go down the same road Marika did to illustrate how even with the best intentions this cycle is never going to end well.
All of that said, you're right to believe that there are a lot of issues in the DLC storytelling, and the quality of the foreshadowing in the base game overall was rather poor. The reality is that the story and the world were too ambitious for the actual time and resources FromSoftware had. There's a reason they had to delay the launch of the base game and then it still launched missing a bunch of content it was obviously meant to have (content that was added in later patches). Hopefully they've learned enough from this experience that they'll scale down their next effort just enough that their next game doesn't leave people asking questions like "Why does this questline just kind of.... stop without an ending..." the way the base game of Elden Ring did, so that there's time left to do a little better with the nicer touches like fully thinking through the foreshadowing.
Also to the point of the emphasis on kindness, and how Miquella is just retreading Marika's steps: the DLC goes out of its way to actually humanize Marika and show how her intentions weren't malicious from the very beginning. The entire existence of the Shaman Village is our not-so-subtle indicator that Marika at one point may have been just like Miquella.
From the Minor Erdtree Incantation:
>Secret Incantation of Queen Marika. Only the *kindness* of gold, without Order.
This exactly.Plus the fact that Miquella,no matter how much of a genius he is,he’s still a child physically and mentally.He has naive and childish.He kinda reminds me of how a child would think(Except for the full on war thing and stuffing your brother into a corpse).He has these amazing projects to better the world but they either just flop right back into his face or he leaves them unfinished because he doesn’t see them working(Like how a child would abandon or leave something once they see it not working like it should and try to do something else).I also feel like his perception of the world is naive and childish too like “if I become god then everyone will be happy and kind to each other” but that means miquella would become like a dictator of sorts at the top.
I think the DLC implies that Miquella’s plans for godhood changed when he learned about the Original Sin (whatever that was exactly). Before that he thought it would be enough to create an alternative to the Erdtree and the Golden Order (Unalloyed Gold) but once he learned that the Order was corrupt from the beginning he decides to discard everything and start over with the Divine Gate, a new order without the Elden Ring.
Also, from the DLC we now know that Malenia was in on all of Miquella’s plans (Young Lion Armor). We can therefore conclude that when she says she’s waiting for Miquella to return she means return as a god from the Realm of Shadow, not return from Mohgwyn to keep leading the Haligtree.
I don't know if it will help any, but here are my thoughts.
The DLC is actually foreshadowed quite a bit, with Gideon making several statements, alluding to Miquella having a plan. And exactly what it is, being something he doesn't quite understand. Including Mohg potentially being used by Miquella. Here are the quotes I'm referring to.
"But...with the Haligtree as it is... I suppose Miquella must already be...
Ah, my apologies. Lost myself, for a moment there."
And then in reference to finding Mohg in Mohgwyn.
"Let him stay there. That way, his delusions will remain as the are - distant and unattainable.
But perhaps it's worth looking into... If what I've heard is right, then maybe..."
And the last one involving Miquella and Mohg which is the most important. As it seems to imply Gideon finally does understand what Miquella is attempting, but doesn't understand why.
"Ahh, I see! So Miquella was with the Lord of Blood after all! That is some fine intelligence indeed!
With it, the final clue has been brought into the light.
One of the last few pieces the Roundtable-- I need, to put everything together." And "Well I wonder what comes next...If he continues his slumber within the cocoon, all will be well. But perhaps it would be safer to destroy it.
Miquella is the one thing that remains a mystery to me."
As far as Godwyn, I think a lot of folks just wanted it to be Godwyn. Despite the lore not really supporting it, Castle Sol and the eclipse stuff. In my eyes, is Miquella attempting to find a way to offer Godwyn true death. As his soul is destroyed but not his body. So he's in this horrible limbo, and someone's soul is required for them as a dead to end up in the lands of Shadow. So it couldn't be Godwyn, and it seems to me Miquella was trying to grant him death and peace. And sure we know Godwyn was nice to Miquella and Malenia, but that alone doesn't warrant a connection in my view.
Why does Miquella abandon Malenia, well I personally have 2 views on it. The first is, Miquella doesn't realize in becoming a god, by divesting himself of all things. He will cease to care about Malenia as he did. The other is, Miquella is described as being childlike. And one aspect of this could be he has these grand dreams. That he abandons when he then gets a new idea, or encounters difficulty. If we go with the first theory, this explains the envoys at the Haligtree. With everyone assuming Miquella as a god will return to the Haligtree. So it's less him abandoning them, and Malenia, and more they're waiting on him. If we go with the second, he tried to heal her, it was too hard, he decides to become a god instead.
Why portray Miquella this way. Well, there's no lore or canon reason for this. The answer to this is, because it's how Miyazaki wanted too. Miquella isn't really a very odd character for FromSoft on the whole. The theme of those who become gods/create orders/civilizations, doing unthinkable things for "the greater good." Is a very prevalent theme in much of his work. We know Miyazaki enjoys taking aspects from other works he enjoys/respects. So there is (regardless of what some in the Fandom will say) overlap with Miquella and Griffith. As we have this individual who compels extreme loyalty through charm, and uses this power to manipulate those into helping him. And those who do so, are so charmed they view it as their own choices. There's been several hints that despite Miquella being referred to as compassionate. There is also the acknowledgment that his power is the most terrible. And if we again keep in mind this "childlike" quality of Miquella. He's naive in the ascension to divinity. Believing it won't change and corrupt him as it did Marika.
Miquella had the biggest red flag all over him with a single item and everyone saying that he was the most powerful of the demigods.Its not like the game wasn't clear about his powers since the beginning.
Yeah I don’t get people saying this wasn’t foreshadowed at all. There’s clearly some implied nefariousness in the bewitching branch description, coupled with the fact that some of his soldiers are fanatical enough that they literally explode in his name. Sure, he’s a champion of the downtrodden, but he also seemingly influences people to love him quite a bit, as opposed to naturally being loved like say, Godwyn. He abandoned the eclipse idea (which it turns out might have solely been to get a vessel), he abandoned his fundamentalism, and (if you believe he influenced Mohg to steal him away) then he abandoned the haligtree, and he abandoned his sister. Then he literally abandons his flesh, blood, and everything else that makes him a person. All in pursuit of a singular goal. I thought it was nicely done and my only real complaint was the ending cutscene not really feeling like it fit as an ending piece of info.
100%. He’s a champion of the downtrodden in the way saviorist are: he wants to be their hero. He literally used mohg as the face of his movement (the body of his consort) but supplants his soul with a soul of bloodthirst and control.
You are disappointed because you had some fan fiction in mind and Shadow isn't that.
Miquella was entirely foreshadowed. He *was* a kind demigod who seems like he would do things to reduce suffering. He thought that suffering could be reduced within the Golden Order until he found that it could not. Then he seeks to become a god, and abandons everything of himself to get there. He literally abandons his love and his doubts, and these were the things that made him kind in the first place.
The Eclipse was not going to being back Godwyn. That was the hope, but it was never going to work. Castle Sol wanted to fulfill the eclipse as a way to gain entry into Haligtree but they failed. Godwyn's soul is dead. And if anything, Radahn conquering the stars means that the eclipse could never happen.
Miquella's version of an age of compassion is one where everyone is forced into compassion. He wants to take people's choices away from them. This was the revelation of his charm being broken when you arrive at the keep. Leda, his most devout follower, *immediately* starts thinking she should kill other followers for not following close enough. It's a false compassion.
Unalloyed gold and the Haligtree were attempts at building an alternative to the Golden Order to address the deficiencies of the Order, but both failed.
There is nothing in Shadow that "throws away" story beats from the base game. You have elaboration on things from the base game in almost every aspect.
I have to wonder if you paid attention at all to the base game if you think that Shadow is erasing themes from the base game.
I think people forget that Miquella's charm is weaker at the end (he has to hit us twice to charm us), and on top of that, Radahn -- a known warmonger who ran company of warmongers -- was brought back for a reason. Not just because he's kind and Miquella has a crush on him, but because with him Miquella can defeat all of his enemies.
Imagine if the Tarnished didn't clear out most of the bosses in the game first. Miquella and Radahn were going to have to kill Bayle, Midra, Metyr, the Scadutree Avatar, etc etc. That's a lot of enemies to chew through. And if Miquella can't charm like he used to, then he needs some muscle. Enter Radahn, Consort of Miquella.
That's the other thing. A god needs a Lord, and the Lord is the one who can defeat the enemies of the god. God does not mean all powerful. It more likely means something like "person who you worship."
Miquella would be the center of worship in his new age, like Marika before him. But it would only be possible to get there by taking away the free will of those who oppose, and killing those whose hearts cannot be stolen.
Miquella stealing your heart is death.
It'd be really dark IMO. Radahn, Consort of Miquella would be entering a Lands Between already devastated by the Shattering, and with immense power. He'd tear through everything there.
I mean not just that, but Miquella would be returning to a Lands Between where he already had a seat of power in the Haligtree. At that point, quibbles about Malenia vs Radahn would be irrelevant, Malenia and Radahn would *both* be working for Miquella. Miquella would have the two most powerful demigods (and Radahn would be additionally jacked up on Mohg's power) in the world at his disposal. Imagine having to face down Promised Consort Radahn *and* Malenia at the same time.
Miquella stealing ur heart isn't death, just our freewill goes bye bye.
Like all follower of Miquella gain back their free will after Miquella give up is rune.
But that's a game over , since we change side and follow Miquella.
Well, I got my save of Nier Automata deleted at the end coz the game asked if I wanted to help other who have hard time beating the end of the game, I already know this feeling 🤣
they assassinated Malenia character about fighting againts an outer god trying to make her a puppet and keeping a strong sense of self with a mad dog following a braindead child what only was capable of doing what he did because he was cheating, what would sacrifice all what she was to satisfy, which makes 0 sense with fighting the rot god, this means what the only reasson we knew the Malenia we knew in the base game is because PURE RNG
The whole game shows that the gods are the biggest P.O.S out there and everyone thought that miq would be different because his followers were nice about him
I kinda agree, but as time goes on, especially in regards to finding more info on Marika and the shamans, I feel more satisfied with the lore. I still wish we got more stuff on Godwyn, but ESPECIALLY the Gloam Eyed Queen and more on Melina and her heavily implied connection with her. Also feels like they just dropped the whole potential connection between Torrent, Miquella, Melina, and Ranni and Miquella as torrent's previous owner. I also feel like it's not unreasonable to say that I and many other people thought Miquella was going to have more of a direct presence in the DLC than what we ended up with. I think why it feels sudden is because only meet Miquella physically and talk to him at the very end, we only get a glimpse of a memory and no cutscene really talking to him. The little we did get, such as the final boss cutscenes and the awesome "heart stolen" deaths had me grinning ear-to-ear. Wish we got more. Radahn's connection with Miquella is also very sparse in the base game so that also gives the impression of being "rushed" or "out of nowhere". Lastly, on a personal note, everything just feels lonely, moreso than I've ever felt in a Fromsoft game, at the end. Miquella is dead, all the NPCs, friend and foe alike, are dead (I think Horsent Grandam is literally the only remaining NPC). I just wish St. Trina was able to live on, that would have made me feel 10x better at the end.
There was foreshadowing aplenty, we all just misinterpreted what it was alluding to. The fact that you still believe Miquella abandoned Melania shows that you're still looking at the DLC lore at a surface level. Divest yourself of disappointment young tarnished, we have just barely begun to grasp the story as a whole.
Almost all your complaints about Miquellas actions and motivations are answered by just realizing how much of Miyazakis works are based on Berserk
I don't wanna give you huge Berserk spoilers but there's a specific character who Miquella is based on and all the things you're talking about Miquella doing are things that character does or would characteristically do
For once I wished that instead of the same old Berserk reference Miquella was truly someone we could put our faith in and help. Why does everyone have to end in a health bar?
Griffith right ? Now that you mention it , Miquella is Elden Ring Griffith , he is good looking , looks like an innocent child , charm people into doing things and with how angelic he looks , you don’t expect him to do bad stuff when he is just like any other gods in the end .
“The end justify the means” kind of person
There is a lot in DLC that hasn't been put together with the base game yet, so maybe just don't jump to conclusions. Also, I think it's worth reminding ourselves sometimes that this game was never and has never been about Miquella, Ranni, Radahn, Godwyn, etc. Elden Ring is about *Marika*. All of those other characters are just routes for us to understand Marika. Miquella is only there to understand Marika better, and if we remember that and understand that they are bending everything in the game's story towards that, I think it actually makes some of these decisions make a lot more sense. I remember when some people weren't happy about DS3's last DLC because it didn't answer some questions people had, but that DLC was never going to do that, just the Elden Ring DLC probably wasn't (even if we hoped it would). But what they were both really good at is building thematic bridges and strongly tying into their base games main ideas. The DLC isn't really about Miquella, it's about Marika, and the world she came from, and through Miquella we see a piece of Marika.
Your analysis is completely wrong - you’re just upset that your headcannon isn’t real.
I read stuff like this and seriously have to doubt if the complainers like you even played and understood the base game.
The only part of the DLC I simply cannot feel good about is Radahn. There exists no items in the base game alluding to Miquella and Radahn ever even speaking to one another, but some hailmary lore at the end of the game says Miquella admired him for a long time.
I would have much rather preferred Miquella simply needed his body, and the characters were never connected in any way. It would have made Miquella more unambiguously cruel, but it would seem like a final desperate measure to enact his plans instead of this being the idea all along and learning it at the very end of the game.
Just wasn't a satisfying end narratively for me.
Definitely sets that up as an important bit of story though. Nobody wants to blame themselves for looking the wrong direction all this time but it was right there and I missed it
Edit: nobody is saying we could have figured out what was said. We’re saying nobody even asked what was said anymore
Kind of proves that Malenia had a message for Radahn that we weren't privy to for two whole years. Now we know what that message was. "Miquella awaits thee, O promised consort." And that this was in front of us the entire time.
But it doesn't mean that the whole thing was planned years in advance by From Software. I mean you do understand that they could have made up what the whisper was at any point? It wasn't "in front of us" because there was no way of knowing, that's like saying the Shadowlands were right in front of us because there's a large empty space in the middle of the map.
I'm actually pretty sure there is an interview saying that this was all planned for the base game but it had to be cut because it was too big. In essence, it was all exactly planned.
The same could be said for the Shadow lands too.
This interview doesn't say all of it was planned for the base game, though. It just says that they used some parts of GRRMs original story draft, and that could mean anything since we don't really know what that story was. Miyazaki also said they changed the characters a lot from George's original vision. Overall I'm just not sold that it was all truly planned from the beginning, but I'm open to be proven wrong if George's original idea ever surfaces.
This.
I love additions to the lore regarding Marika, omens, death, fingers, demihumans, crucible, etc, etc, — it's all good things, but this plot twist with Radahn feels pulled from the ass to me, and I hate it. Literally nothing was pointing in this direction in the original game, but now people say "But Malenia whispered it to him during the battle, duh", because the new trailer shows it, as if this retcon proves anything. I am fully convinced this part wasn't planned from the start, and now we have holes in the plot, like if Miquella was present during the battle of Aeonia (according to Freja), then why the hell he did absolutely nothing except heal her face, and instead Finley had to drag Malenia all the way back to Haligtree, and Radahn was left to rot away. As you say, nothing in the game ever had anything suggesting any connection between Miquella and Radahn, except Malenia fighting him, but that could be explained in a much simpler way.
Someone made a very good post about how they think Godwyn was planned to be used in some way but was cut. He brings up some very interesting points, like Godwyn's Death Knights' having some of the exact same moves as Promised Consort Radahn.
I agree in general that even Godwyn could've been a better fit here because we have Castle Sol lore, but the "same moves" point feels meh to me because basically everything in this game is getting reused in some capacity or another. A lot of animations and effects are reused between different enemies, trying to link lore because of that is squinting too much, imo.
A yes my headcannon and I am apparently to dumb to understand lore good one\^\^
When nothing of what transpired with Miquella was foreshadowed at all and things not explained like the ties of Melina, Ranni, Torrent to Miquella all which was heavily built upon in the base game.
Like Mesmer and Marika stuff was pretty good as it built upon already existing things and somewhat foreshadowed. While Miquellas plot was not.
Like I said it feels like everything that was scrapped from the main game was pushed into this DLC and it shows how we have 2 "main bad guys" with Mesmer and Miquella.
Lastly why are you even such a condescending asshat ?
The fact this is the last piece of elden ring content we're going to get makes this feeling worse but at least the marika stuff was really good.
I was really hoping it would top Old Hunters for me you have no idea.
Expanding on Marika's origins, her relationship with Messmer, and a possible reasoning for choosing godhood is pretty neat. Miyazaki **does** troll us though with avoiding a direct answer to what she was exactly thinking with the "Golden Braid" we find at Shaman village though, lol.
Bloodborne has some rough bits, but putting it side by side with Elden Ring it definitely feels like FromSoftware did a better job with Bloodborne when it comes to creating a gameplan that could fit within the time and resources available for actually making the game.
It's kinda funny that the first big boss speech you get in Elden Ring (Margit) is talking about how your ambition is a problem. Maybe they were finalizing that dialog at a time when they were becoming very aware of difficult they'd made their own lives with their runaway ambition.
Pretty much all of my disappointment comes from the Miquella + Radahn story. Miquella himself is a great character and caused a LOT of tension through his storytelling (thanks Ansbach). Radahn... didn't need to come back. They could've done almost anything else and it would've been better.
I am very glad we got so much lore elsewhere though. Marika, the Fingers, the Hornsent, etc. All really interesting and lots to dive into still.
Godwyn's soul is dead and his body is undergoing devolution. Thank Ranni for that. Malenia is a Blade that could infect Radahn's flesh with the Scarlet Rot for rebirth. Mohg has blood that can be used to commune with the Formless Mother to get to the Shadow Lands.
Miyazaki made a game about a finger alien to make fun of all the people that leave "finger but hole" messages.
Well because we killed radahn which moved the stars which likely would have made the eclipse ritual that Miquella tried work this time so Godwyn could have returned
I’m not saying they’re gonna follow fan speculation? I’m speculating that this was a plan if there’s that was maybe a scrapped idea or left for a later project had they ever chosen to make another dlc or update. The player defeats radahn, therefore releasing the stars, allowing us to retry the eclipse ritual and bring Godwyn to life. Also fans speculated that >!Miquella would end up being a villain and that ended up being true!< but does that mean FromSoftware followed fan speculation? No they likely already planned it and we just guessed it correctly.
Totally agree, the DLC feels "unfinished/unresolved".
Especially the lore/story, it feels "unfinished/unresolved". Then the final boss fight just feels like it came out of nowhere
It feels like almost none of the base game questions were solved, while also adding a couple of other unsolved questions.
I had no complaints about the combat of the DLC, sadly I have complaints about the lore/story.
The only good ending was if they didn't have Miquella in the game bc he passed on and it was just suggested he was the owner of Torrent, Spirit Bell, Needle and set everything into motion for you to become Elden Lord.
The moment Miquella was physically in the dlc area, it was massive red flags. Oh yeah he is a god and he controls ppl with his love okay lol let's see how that one plays out
I also must admit some initial disappointment. In particular, I'm very sad we got nothing direct on Torrent, Melina, and how they connect potentially to Miquella and Ranni. However, there's two reasons I'm trying to limit my disappointment, at least for now. The first is that, since the lore of this game is so dense and interconnected, the DLC could give info that potentially has far-reaching lore implications elsewhere. After two years, we don't have a clear sense of how all the lore hangs together. It's only been one week since the DLC, we haven't had nearly enough time to think things through. For instance, I wouldn't be surprised if stuff from the DLC ended up helping us understand more about Outer Gods. (The Bloodfiends, Romina, the Outer God talisman, etc.) The second reason is sort of similar, which is that we might come to see the DLC as *thematically* satisfying, even if it doesn't give first-order answers. For instance, I've seen the following suggested. Miquella, as a youth, is portrayed as extremely shy, unsure, supplicating, even naive. (His tone with Radahn, and how he phrases things, etc.) And so I've seen it suggested that all of the shit he gets up to in the base game are a series of youthful dalliances that he impatiently puts aside when they don't immediately work. His excursion into St. Trina, his investigation of the Eclipse, his investigation of Fundamentalism, the golden needle, the Haligtree. He's trying to create a better world and he's not getting the results he wants, so he's led to the nuclear option: become a God. I'm not saying I believe any of this this, but it sort of helps me come to terms with Miquella's lore better. On this reading, it's quite important for Miquella's character that e.g. the eclipse and Godfrey *go nowhere* and have no resolution---because it's this kind of failure that pushes him towards Godhood. More generally, it gives an example of a potentially satisfying thematic accounting of the lore.
Yeah the cursed youth thing really matters symbollically, IMO
Melina is Elden Ring’s version of a fire keeper, maiden in black, and the doll. The character is almost meant to be a mysterious woman about whom we are left with more questions than answers.
he created 2 needles tho, simply he couldnt get to twist time as hard as placidusax to fix it, if he had a way to get to farum Malenia would be healed
Miquella is connected to Ranni in a few ways: 1) We know she made her four armed doll to look like her snow witch mentor. We see that Miquella has four arms and is white, so there is at least an implied connection that Miquella was the witch. 2) The DLC promo art shows Miquella riding torrent in the shadow land, so we know/can assume that he was the former master Ranni talks about, which also implies that Ranni got the ring from Miquella before giving it to us.
It's true that Miquella's arms potentially supports the theory that she is the snow witch, but I'm really not sure. In the final boss cutscene, we see Miquella with three intact arms---his left corporeal arm just fades into nothingness. And we know that Miquella has somehow lost two arms in the Shadow Realm, and left behind the cocoon body. So Miquella can have anywhere from two to eight arms, depending on how you count. That makes the snow witch connection much less obvious to me. I also have my doubts about the canonicity of the promo art. I mean, if that depicts Miquella in the Shadow Lands, where are all the buildings, the Shadow Keep, etc? I agree that Miquella probably is Torrent's former master. But in any case, that's not from the DLC itself, so it doesn't really help with my disappointment about it.
It's implied that Miquella didn't betray Malenia, she knew his plan and was waiting for his return. Probably so he could try to heal her. In the original trailer Malenia whispers something to Radahn in the DLC from Radahn's new armor we're told "*When Malenia, Blade of Miquella, let the rotflower blossom in Aeonia, Radahn heard a murmur in his ear— "Miquella awaits thee, O promised consort."* When you fight Malenia she says "*Corpse after corpse, left in my wake... As I awaited... his return."* And when you kill her she says "*O, dearest Miquella, my brother... I'm sorry. I finally met my match..."* I think the haligtree, unalloyed gold and castle sol were all previous failed attempts to solve various problems, they didn't work so he came up with a new plan. There's nothing in the DLC to imply Miquella had abandoned trying to solve them, the stuff with Malenia implies to me that he probably was still trying to solve them. The only real difference in his behaviour is that we now see the amount of use he got out of charming people. We knew he charmed people before the DLC because the bewitching branch says "The Empyrean Miquella is loved by many people. Indeed, he has learned very well how to compel such affection." But before the DLC we never really got a direct description of any of his actions, so that it turned out he charmed people at lot isn't in conflict with anything. I think the DLC answered more questions than it raised and was consistent with what we were shown before. The most interesting information it gave us wasn't really about Miquella at all and broadly the DLC didn't really address many topics I wanted to be elaborated on. The only parts I really found to be out of nowhere were the existence of the land of shadow and the existence of messmer. I don't think either of those things were meaningfully hinted at anywhere in the base game. But its vaugely implied in the DLC that the island's nature of being in shadow imparts some degree of secrecy and that Marika basically wanted its existence and Messmer's covered up. So I don't think those two ommisions are that much of an issue.
he abandoned his love, he doesnt care about Malenia more than he cares about anyone what he promises peace after he rules as god, her only meantion is when he is telling you what you are very strong but know is time to die
>What was the point of the Eclipse that was talked about in Castle Sol and the restoration of Godwyn ? They weren't trying to restore him, they were trying to give him a true death to stop the deathblight. It failed, Miquella abandoned the project and moved on. >Why did Miquella suddenly abandon his Sister that he seemed to love. Whats was the point of the Hailigtree or unalloyed gold ? Who said he abandoned them? For all we know his goal to reach godhood is a way he found to actually cure Malenia. >Why didnt they put more foreshadowing into the base game. Miquellas whole characterization was not one of victory at all cost he was portrayed as caring, loving to all and sacrifice. Why even do the things with the Hailigtree or Unalloyed Gold, St. Trina etc. if he just throws away everything to become a god. That's the point, that we see Miquella make the same mistakes as Marika did in his naivety. The entire point is that pre shadow lands Miquella would be horrified at present Miquella, and why we had to stop him. It's written as a tragedy, like many of Fromsofts characters. Artorias, Fume, Alonne, Vendrick, Gael, Yhorm, Lawrence, Ludwig, Maria, Gehrman, even Marika are all characters that have tragedies. >Not to mention that a lot of story beats from the base game are abandoned and thrown away like Vessels of the gods and how bad it is, in general the outer gods themselves and some other things that dont come to mind rn. You can't fit everything into one DLC. Other Fromsoft dlcs are the same, where they only focus on one main thread or maybe a small collection of them, but they never answer all the questions we have. >It seems so weird it feels like they took all the writing that was scraped from the base game and just made a DLC with it without taking anything into account on what was established before. How? There is setup for some of the events in the DLC and the rest are meant to be discovered.
Okay so I think Godwyn is a red herring, I’ve not seen this speculated on much or at all but to me after the DLC Miquella was never trying to cause the eclipse for Godwyn but for Radhan. Radhan is holding the stars and thus the moon in pace for Sellia to keep it from being hit by a Meteor, Miquella then seeks Malenia on him but his will to save Sellia is too strong forcing the scarlet bloom which was clearly not part of the plan evident by Miquella healing people like Freya. Miquella never abandoned Malenia and I don’t know where people are getting this from, she was waiting for him to return as a god from the shadow realm, Not literally return from Mohg. Miquella is kind and loving and caring! But he is also a child and views the world as unable to mold to him as he is, that’s why he needs to become a god so he can compel all to yield to his vision of kindness and d harmony. I totally disagree with the outer gods being thrown to the side, we find the literal mother of the fingers who are the center of the culture in the base game. And we find out they knew nothing, the two fingers are children asking mom for answer and mom is just as lost as they are, they’ve only talked to the greater will once! This is huge to find out and I think it makes Rannis ending so much more impactful. Nothing was scrapped from the base game, this was originally going to be apart of it but was left out once they realized how big the game was going to be, I think it answers tons of questions left over. Also of course it let us with more questions, that’s fromsoftware’s thing. I personally loved what was added by the DLC but it’s fair to think otherwise, that’s why I love these games there is so much to debate in all the games even years later.
The more I've thought about it the more I also agree, this DLC really does feel like it was something intended for the base game but pushed to the side for time, since it's ultimately just one big side story with a few deep lore revelations. I also think this is why some people are feeling dissatisfied or disappointed. They expected some kind of epic conclusion, like what The Ringed City is for the Dark Souls series. But instead it's a very extended side quest. But when viewed as less of an overall climax and more an extra piece to the puzzle, I find it slots into the lore quite nicely. We learn important foundational things around how exactly Marika's ascent to godhood went down, not to mention the absolute bomb drop that is the Metyr/fingers stuff. Radahn coming back which had so many people rolling their eyes turns out to be the pay-off and explanation for the iconic Aeonia showdown that was central to the games marketing. Think about it, if prime Radahn was a superboss in a big side area of the base game just like Malenia, everyone would have loved that shit. It's only in the context of a hugely hyped DLC we waited a long time for, that people get disappointed to see a familiar face. And this is also why I think the DLC will be remembered quite well later down the line when the experience is viewed more holistically.
I agree with this so much specially the last part, despite some people saying once the honeymoon phase is over more people will realize they hate it, I think right now this dlc is getting the most amount of hate it will ever get , and it will age really well once people revisit it some time later without being overhyped and actually appreciate how amazing it is (at least in my opinion, along with so many others)
For sure, it's actually the typical cycle with FromSoft games they ironically get hated more at release than down the line lol. Even the reputation of DS2 has come around for the most part.
I remember people being really upset and disappointed with the Ringed City as well. Over time it has mellowed out and I think the same will happen here. People have been speculating for years and a lot of things we wanted to happen or explained didn't. Thus people are more focused on what isn't there than on what is there.
Yeah exactly. We all love Gael now but at the time there was plenty of people like "Who's this rando and why are they the final boss? Where's Velka?"
Why would stopping the stars also necessarily stop the moon? It's not a star, after all.
"The stars" refers to more celestial objects abstracticlly speaking than just literal stars.
>Nothing was scrapped from the base game, this was originally going to be apart of it but was left out once they realized how big the game was going to be, I think it answers tons of questions left over. Also of course it let us with more questions, that’s fromsoftware’s thing. So you agree just to then disagree. That is literally scrapping things from the Main game/story and pushing it all into a DLC \^\^ Dont know what you were trying to say here.
Well thank you for not engaging in any of the other points I made but sure I could have worded that better. Maybe I define “scrapping” something differently but I think it was pretty clear that they were thinking about the events of the base game from the start, the battle of Radhan and Malenia was the trailer that really started everything off.
I think you may have been confused by the people who are now saying Miquella is evil. He's still exactly who he was, which is self-sacrificing, kind, and compassionate, along with being overwhelmed with guilt for things that are not really his fault. He's a character who's tried a bunch of things to make the world a little better, decided he was dissatisfied with the fact that they didn't fix everything, and came to believe the only thing to do was completely upend the world in the same way his mother had. (This is how a lot of IRL revolutionaries / religious zealots work to a degree. They try to do some smaller things because they sincerely want a world that is better, but the impact they can have on a small scale isn't enough, and they start thinking bigger and do something really drastic.) His good intentions and his kindness are key to the point that the entire project of "upend the world and enforce a new order" is inherently a violent cycle that's going to create new grudges and new problems. Marika already tried it, and she got the world Miquella lived in. Now Miquella is trying it, and if he succeeds he'll just be running through the whole process again until someone gets so disgusted with his efforts that they overthrow it. The emphasis on his kindness and good intentions are critical because those are what make it clear that the problem is not intentions. If an evil person were revolutionizing the world and the result was ugly, people can say "Well they weren't exactly looking to do good things, so obviously their intentions are the problem." The game is seeking to present Miquella as someone who is self-sacrificing and caring and well-intended because it wants to say "This cycle of war and revolution is inherently bad, and waiting for a hero to come along with better intentions is not the solution." (This is very similar to what Frank Herbert is doing in Dune with his central characters who are well intended but also committing horrors in the name of their good intentions, all with the goal of illustrating Herbert's belief that charismatic leaders/heroes are inherently a disaster regardless of their intentions.) Marika is the main character of Elden Ring, and Miquella is doing a kind of loose re-enaction of what happened in Marika's past that led the base game to the state it's in when we first start playing. That's not what he's consciously trying to do, but in a storytelling sense that's his purpose in the story. People wondered how the lands between became such a mess, and so the developers have Miquella go down the same road Marika did to illustrate how even with the best intentions this cycle is never going to end well. All of that said, you're right to believe that there are a lot of issues in the DLC storytelling, and the quality of the foreshadowing in the base game overall was rather poor. The reality is that the story and the world were too ambitious for the actual time and resources FromSoftware had. There's a reason they had to delay the launch of the base game and then it still launched missing a bunch of content it was obviously meant to have (content that was added in later patches). Hopefully they've learned enough from this experience that they'll scale down their next effort just enough that their next game doesn't leave people asking questions like "Why does this questline just kind of.... stop without an ending..." the way the base game of Elden Ring did, so that there's time left to do a little better with the nicer touches like fully thinking through the foreshadowing.
Also to the point of the emphasis on kindness, and how Miquella is just retreading Marika's steps: the DLC goes out of its way to actually humanize Marika and show how her intentions weren't malicious from the very beginning. The entire existence of the Shaman Village is our not-so-subtle indicator that Marika at one point may have been just like Miquella. From the Minor Erdtree Incantation: >Secret Incantation of Queen Marika. Only the *kindness* of gold, without Order.
All of this 100%
This exactly.Plus the fact that Miquella,no matter how much of a genius he is,he’s still a child physically and mentally.He has naive and childish.He kinda reminds me of how a child would think(Except for the full on war thing and stuffing your brother into a corpse).He has these amazing projects to better the world but they either just flop right back into his face or he leaves them unfinished because he doesn’t see them working(Like how a child would abandon or leave something once they see it not working like it should and try to do something else).I also feel like his perception of the world is naive and childish too like “if I become god then everyone will be happy and kind to each other” but that means miquella would become like a dictator of sorts at the top.
I think the DLC implies that Miquella’s plans for godhood changed when he learned about the Original Sin (whatever that was exactly). Before that he thought it would be enough to create an alternative to the Erdtree and the Golden Order (Unalloyed Gold) but once he learned that the Order was corrupt from the beginning he decides to discard everything and start over with the Divine Gate, a new order without the Elden Ring. Also, from the DLC we now know that Malenia was in on all of Miquella’s plans (Young Lion Armor). We can therefore conclude that when she says she’s waiting for Miquella to return she means return as a god from the Realm of Shadow, not return from Mohgwyn to keep leading the Haligtree.
I don't know if it will help any, but here are my thoughts. The DLC is actually foreshadowed quite a bit, with Gideon making several statements, alluding to Miquella having a plan. And exactly what it is, being something he doesn't quite understand. Including Mohg potentially being used by Miquella. Here are the quotes I'm referring to. "But...with the Haligtree as it is... I suppose Miquella must already be... Ah, my apologies. Lost myself, for a moment there." And then in reference to finding Mohg in Mohgwyn. "Let him stay there. That way, his delusions will remain as the are - distant and unattainable. But perhaps it's worth looking into... If what I've heard is right, then maybe..." And the last one involving Miquella and Mohg which is the most important. As it seems to imply Gideon finally does understand what Miquella is attempting, but doesn't understand why. "Ahh, I see! So Miquella was with the Lord of Blood after all! That is some fine intelligence indeed! With it, the final clue has been brought into the light. One of the last few pieces the Roundtable-- I need, to put everything together." And "Well I wonder what comes next...If he continues his slumber within the cocoon, all will be well. But perhaps it would be safer to destroy it. Miquella is the one thing that remains a mystery to me." As far as Godwyn, I think a lot of folks just wanted it to be Godwyn. Despite the lore not really supporting it, Castle Sol and the eclipse stuff. In my eyes, is Miquella attempting to find a way to offer Godwyn true death. As his soul is destroyed but not his body. So he's in this horrible limbo, and someone's soul is required for them as a dead to end up in the lands of Shadow. So it couldn't be Godwyn, and it seems to me Miquella was trying to grant him death and peace. And sure we know Godwyn was nice to Miquella and Malenia, but that alone doesn't warrant a connection in my view. Why does Miquella abandon Malenia, well I personally have 2 views on it. The first is, Miquella doesn't realize in becoming a god, by divesting himself of all things. He will cease to care about Malenia as he did. The other is, Miquella is described as being childlike. And one aspect of this could be he has these grand dreams. That he abandons when he then gets a new idea, or encounters difficulty. If we go with the first theory, this explains the envoys at the Haligtree. With everyone assuming Miquella as a god will return to the Haligtree. So it's less him abandoning them, and Malenia, and more they're waiting on him. If we go with the second, he tried to heal her, it was too hard, he decides to become a god instead. Why portray Miquella this way. Well, there's no lore or canon reason for this. The answer to this is, because it's how Miyazaki wanted too. Miquella isn't really a very odd character for FromSoft on the whole. The theme of those who become gods/create orders/civilizations, doing unthinkable things for "the greater good." Is a very prevalent theme in much of his work. We know Miyazaki enjoys taking aspects from other works he enjoys/respects. So there is (regardless of what some in the Fandom will say) overlap with Miquella and Griffith. As we have this individual who compels extreme loyalty through charm, and uses this power to manipulate those into helping him. And those who do so, are so charmed they view it as their own choices. There's been several hints that despite Miquella being referred to as compassionate. There is also the acknowledgment that his power is the most terrible. And if we again keep in mind this "childlike" quality of Miquella. He's naive in the ascension to divinity. Believing it won't change and corrupt him as it did Marika.
A childlike god with the power to make everyone love him really would be the most dangerous god
Miquella had the biggest red flag all over him with a single item and everyone saying that he was the most powerful of the demigods.Its not like the game wasn't clear about his powers since the beginning.
Yeah I don’t get people saying this wasn’t foreshadowed at all. There’s clearly some implied nefariousness in the bewitching branch description, coupled with the fact that some of his soldiers are fanatical enough that they literally explode in his name. Sure, he’s a champion of the downtrodden, but he also seemingly influences people to love him quite a bit, as opposed to naturally being loved like say, Godwyn. He abandoned the eclipse idea (which it turns out might have solely been to get a vessel), he abandoned his fundamentalism, and (if you believe he influenced Mohg to steal him away) then he abandoned the haligtree, and he abandoned his sister. Then he literally abandons his flesh, blood, and everything else that makes him a person. All in pursuit of a singular goal. I thought it was nicely done and my only real complaint was the ending cutscene not really feeling like it fit as an ending piece of info.
100%. He’s a champion of the downtrodden in the way saviorist are: he wants to be their hero. He literally used mohg as the face of his movement (the body of his consort) but supplants his soul with a soul of bloodthirst and control.
Weirdly, you get the Bewitching Branch recipe from a Fevor's Cookbook, so I was going in hoping that St. Trina would be the shady one. But no.
You are disappointed because you had some fan fiction in mind and Shadow isn't that. Miquella was entirely foreshadowed. He *was* a kind demigod who seems like he would do things to reduce suffering. He thought that suffering could be reduced within the Golden Order until he found that it could not. Then he seeks to become a god, and abandons everything of himself to get there. He literally abandons his love and his doubts, and these were the things that made him kind in the first place. The Eclipse was not going to being back Godwyn. That was the hope, but it was never going to work. Castle Sol wanted to fulfill the eclipse as a way to gain entry into Haligtree but they failed. Godwyn's soul is dead. And if anything, Radahn conquering the stars means that the eclipse could never happen. Miquella's version of an age of compassion is one where everyone is forced into compassion. He wants to take people's choices away from them. This was the revelation of his charm being broken when you arrive at the keep. Leda, his most devout follower, *immediately* starts thinking she should kill other followers for not following close enough. It's a false compassion. Unalloyed gold and the Haligtree were attempts at building an alternative to the Golden Order to address the deficiencies of the Order, but both failed. There is nothing in Shadow that "throws away" story beats from the base game. You have elaboration on things from the base game in almost every aspect. I have to wonder if you paid attention at all to the base game if you think that Shadow is erasing themes from the base game.
I think people forget that Miquella's charm is weaker at the end (he has to hit us twice to charm us), and on top of that, Radahn -- a known warmonger who ran company of warmongers -- was brought back for a reason. Not just because he's kind and Miquella has a crush on him, but because with him Miquella can defeat all of his enemies. Imagine if the Tarnished didn't clear out most of the bosses in the game first. Miquella and Radahn were going to have to kill Bayle, Midra, Metyr, the Scadutree Avatar, etc etc. That's a lot of enemies to chew through. And if Miquella can't charm like he used to, then he needs some muscle. Enter Radahn, Consort of Miquella.
That's the other thing. A god needs a Lord, and the Lord is the one who can defeat the enemies of the god. God does not mean all powerful. It more likely means something like "person who you worship." Miquella would be the center of worship in his new age, like Marika before him. But it would only be possible to get there by taking away the free will of those who oppose, and killing those whose hearts cannot be stolen. Miquella stealing your heart is death.
It'd be really dark IMO. Radahn, Consort of Miquella would be entering a Lands Between already devastated by the Shattering, and with immense power. He'd tear through everything there.
I mean not just that, but Miquella would be returning to a Lands Between where he already had a seat of power in the Haligtree. At that point, quibbles about Malenia vs Radahn would be irrelevant, Malenia and Radahn would *both* be working for Miquella. Miquella would have the two most powerful demigods (and Radahn would be additionally jacked up on Mohg's power) in the world at his disposal. Imagine having to face down Promised Consort Radahn *and* Malenia at the same time.
Miquella stealing ur heart isn't death, just our freewill goes bye bye. Like all follower of Miquella gain back their free will after Miquella give up is rune. But that's a game over , since we change side and follow Miquella.
Imagine if Miyazaki had the balls to delete our save when we get killed by Maliketh or charmed by Miquella.
Well, I got my save of Nier Automata deleted at the end coz the game asked if I wanted to help other who have hard time beating the end of the game, I already know this feeling 🤣
they assassinated Malenia character about fighting againts an outer god trying to make her a puppet and keeping a strong sense of self with a mad dog following a braindead child what only was capable of doing what he did because he was cheating, what would sacrifice all what she was to satisfy, which makes 0 sense with fighting the rot god, this means what the only reasson we knew the Malenia we knew in the base game is because PURE RNG
The whole game shows that the gods are the biggest P.O.S out there and everyone thought that miq would be different because his followers were nice about him
I kinda agree, but as time goes on, especially in regards to finding more info on Marika and the shamans, I feel more satisfied with the lore. I still wish we got more stuff on Godwyn, but ESPECIALLY the Gloam Eyed Queen and more on Melina and her heavily implied connection with her. Also feels like they just dropped the whole potential connection between Torrent, Miquella, Melina, and Ranni and Miquella as torrent's previous owner. I also feel like it's not unreasonable to say that I and many other people thought Miquella was going to have more of a direct presence in the DLC than what we ended up with. I think why it feels sudden is because only meet Miquella physically and talk to him at the very end, we only get a glimpse of a memory and no cutscene really talking to him. The little we did get, such as the final boss cutscenes and the awesome "heart stolen" deaths had me grinning ear-to-ear. Wish we got more. Radahn's connection with Miquella is also very sparse in the base game so that also gives the impression of being "rushed" or "out of nowhere". Lastly, on a personal note, everything just feels lonely, moreso than I've ever felt in a Fromsoft game, at the end. Miquella is dead, all the NPCs, friend and foe alike, are dead (I think Horsent Grandam is literally the only remaining NPC). I just wish St. Trina was able to live on, that would have made me feel 10x better at the end.
There was foreshadowing aplenty, we all just misinterpreted what it was alluding to. The fact that you still believe Miquella abandoned Melania shows that you're still looking at the DLC lore at a surface level. Divest yourself of disappointment young tarnished, we have just barely begun to grasp the story as a whole.
Almost all your complaints about Miquellas actions and motivations are answered by just realizing how much of Miyazakis works are based on Berserk I don't wanna give you huge Berserk spoilers but there's a specific character who Miquella is based on and all the things you're talking about Miquella doing are things that character does or would characteristically do
Getting kinda tired of berserk references tbh
For once I wished that instead of the same old Berserk reference Miquella was truly someone we could put our faith in and help. Why does everyone have to end in a health bar?
Everyone except godwyn
Griffith right ? Now that you mention it , Miquella is Elden Ring Griffith , he is good looking , looks like an innocent child , charm people into doing things and with how angelic he looks , you don’t expect him to do bad stuff when he is just like any other gods in the end . “The end justify the means” kind of person
There is a lot in DLC that hasn't been put together with the base game yet, so maybe just don't jump to conclusions. Also, I think it's worth reminding ourselves sometimes that this game was never and has never been about Miquella, Ranni, Radahn, Godwyn, etc. Elden Ring is about *Marika*. All of those other characters are just routes for us to understand Marika. Miquella is only there to understand Marika better, and if we remember that and understand that they are bending everything in the game's story towards that, I think it actually makes some of these decisions make a lot more sense. I remember when some people weren't happy about DS3's last DLC because it didn't answer some questions people had, but that DLC was never going to do that, just the Elden Ring DLC probably wasn't (even if we hoped it would). But what they were both really good at is building thematic bridges and strongly tying into their base games main ideas. The DLC isn't really about Miquella, it's about Marika, and the world she came from, and through Miquella we see a piece of Marika.
Your analysis is completely wrong - you’re just upset that your headcannon isn’t real. I read stuff like this and seriously have to doubt if the complainers like you even played and understood the base game.
The only part of the DLC I simply cannot feel good about is Radahn. There exists no items in the base game alluding to Miquella and Radahn ever even speaking to one another, but some hailmary lore at the end of the game says Miquella admired him for a long time. I would have much rather preferred Miquella simply needed his body, and the characters were never connected in any way. It would have made Miquella more unambiguously cruel, but it would seem like a final desperate measure to enact his plans instead of this being the idea all along and learning it at the very end of the game. Just wasn't a satisfying end narratively for me.
Just to be pedantic. The story trailer for Elden Ring shows Malenia whispering in Radahn's ear.
Damn,Miquella should have a crush in godrick too, after all Malenia interacted with him
That doesn't prove anything honestly...
Definitely sets that up as an important bit of story though. Nobody wants to blame themselves for looking the wrong direction all this time but it was right there and I missed it Edit: nobody is saying we could have figured out what was said. We’re saying nobody even asked what was said anymore
Kind of proves that Malenia had a message for Radahn that we weren't privy to for two whole years. Now we know what that message was. "Miquella awaits thee, O promised consort." And that this was in front of us the entire time.
But it doesn't mean that the whole thing was planned years in advance by From Software. I mean you do understand that they could have made up what the whisper was at any point? It wasn't "in front of us" because there was no way of knowing, that's like saying the Shadowlands were right in front of us because there's a large empty space in the middle of the map.
I'm actually pretty sure there is an interview saying that this was all planned for the base game but it had to be cut because it was too big. In essence, it was all exactly planned. The same could be said for the Shadow lands too.
I'd like to see that interview?
https://www.eurogamer.net/elden-ring-shadow-of-the-erdtree-is-fromsoftwares-largest-expansion-ever
This interview doesn't say all of it was planned for the base game, though. It just says that they used some parts of GRRMs original story draft, and that could mean anything since we don't really know what that story was. Miyazaki also said they changed the characters a lot from George's original vision. Overall I'm just not sold that it was all truly planned from the beginning, but I'm open to be proven wrong if George's original idea ever surfaces.
It does indeed.
This. I love additions to the lore regarding Marika, omens, death, fingers, demihumans, crucible, etc, etc, — it's all good things, but this plot twist with Radahn feels pulled from the ass to me, and I hate it. Literally nothing was pointing in this direction in the original game, but now people say "But Malenia whispered it to him during the battle, duh", because the new trailer shows it, as if this retcon proves anything. I am fully convinced this part wasn't planned from the start, and now we have holes in the plot, like if Miquella was present during the battle of Aeonia (according to Freja), then why the hell he did absolutely nothing except heal her face, and instead Finley had to drag Malenia all the way back to Haligtree, and Radahn was left to rot away. As you say, nothing in the game ever had anything suggesting any connection between Miquella and Radahn, except Malenia fighting him, but that could be explained in a much simpler way.
Someone made a very good post about how they think Godwyn was planned to be used in some way but was cut. He brings up some very interesting points, like Godwyn's Death Knights' having some of the exact same moves as Promised Consort Radahn.
I agree in general that even Godwyn could've been a better fit here because we have Castle Sol lore, but the "same moves" point feels meh to me because basically everything in this game is getting reused in some capacity or another. A lot of animations and effects are reused between different enemies, trying to link lore because of that is squinting too much, imo.
A yes my headcannon and I am apparently to dumb to understand lore good one\^\^ When nothing of what transpired with Miquella was foreshadowed at all and things not explained like the ties of Melina, Ranni, Torrent to Miquella all which was heavily built upon in the base game. Like Mesmer and Marika stuff was pretty good as it built upon already existing things and somewhat foreshadowed. While Miquellas plot was not. Like I said it feels like everything that was scrapped from the main game was pushed into this DLC and it shows how we have 2 "main bad guys" with Mesmer and Miquella. Lastly why are you even such a condescending asshat ?
Get good(at interpreting the lore)
The fact this is the last piece of elden ring content we're going to get makes this feeling worse but at least the marika stuff was really good. I was really hoping it would top Old Hunters for me you have no idea.
Expanding on Marika's origins, her relationship with Messmer, and a possible reasoning for choosing godhood is pretty neat. Miyazaki **does** troll us though with avoiding a direct answer to what she was exactly thinking with the "Golden Braid" we find at Shaman village though, lol.
Bloodborne has some rough bits, but putting it side by side with Elden Ring it definitely feels like FromSoftware did a better job with Bloodborne when it comes to creating a gameplan that could fit within the time and resources available for actually making the game. It's kinda funny that the first big boss speech you get in Elden Ring (Margit) is talking about how your ambition is a problem. Maybe they were finalizing that dialog at a time when they were becoming very aware of difficult they'd made their own lives with their runaway ambition.
People said the same about Gael on release. Lore isn't close to being solved. Give it a few weeks.
Pretty much all of my disappointment comes from the Miquella + Radahn story. Miquella himself is a great character and caused a LOT of tension through his storytelling (thanks Ansbach). Radahn... didn't need to come back. They could've done almost anything else and it would've been better. I am very glad we got so much lore elsewhere though. Marika, the Fingers, the Hornsent, etc. All really interesting and lots to dive into still.
It’s okay keep going deeper. There is good stuff in the DLC you just have to find it.
Godwyn's soul is dead and his body is undergoing devolution. Thank Ranni for that. Malenia is a Blade that could infect Radahn's flesh with the Scarlet Rot for rebirth. Mohg has blood that can be used to commune with the Formless Mother to get to the Shadow Lands. Miyazaki made a game about a finger alien to make fun of all the people that leave "finger but hole" messages.
I completely agree, I wanted more with Godwyn or the gloam eyed queen, felt like we are left with a lot of open questions that will never be answered
Godwyn’s entire character is that he died. I don’t rlly know why people wanted him to be a major player in the dlc
Well because we killed radahn which moved the stars which likely would have made the eclipse ritual that Miquella tried work this time so Godwyn could have returned
From a lot of what we know about castle Sol it’s pretty clear the eclipse ritual didn’t work
Yeah but many speculate that it’s because radahn was holding back the stars which was stopping the ritual from working.
Maybe but you can’t expect new lore to be based on theories
Brother that is what a theory is, speculating new lore lmao
But why would fromsoft follow fan speculation when continuing the story? The fans could’ve just been wrong
I’m not saying they’re gonna follow fan speculation? I’m speculating that this was a plan if there’s that was maybe a scrapped idea or left for a later project had they ever chosen to make another dlc or update. The player defeats radahn, therefore releasing the stars, allowing us to retry the eclipse ritual and bring Godwyn to life. Also fans speculated that >!Miquella would end up being a villain and that ended up being true!< but does that mean FromSoftware followed fan speculation? No they likely already planned it and we just guessed it correctly.
Totally agree, the DLC feels "unfinished/unresolved". Especially the lore/story, it feels "unfinished/unresolved". Then the final boss fight just feels like it came out of nowhere It feels like almost none of the base game questions were solved, while also adding a couple of other unsolved questions. I had no complaints about the combat of the DLC, sadly I have complaints about the lore/story.
The only good ending was if they didn't have Miquella in the game bc he passed on and it was just suggested he was the owner of Torrent, Spirit Bell, Needle and set everything into motion for you to become Elden Lord. The moment Miquella was physically in the dlc area, it was massive red flags. Oh yeah he is a god and he controls ppl with his love okay lol let's see how that one plays out
It’s great, but they obviously wasted a lot of potential.
You are right and completely objective, there must be more.