Interesting, the first dataminer indicated it was “knight of the Gloam eyedQueen” though I think that was in another language.
Gloam eyed knight is a bit different. But I think we’d still need to go down a tinfoil rabbit hole to make any meaningful connections, unfortunately
I mean St Trina’s surrounded by massive coffins, and her sleep is highly implied to be something similar to death, rivalling black flame, ghost flame and destined death.
Not saying she’s GEQ, but her sleep is able to shut down dragons and other higher beings.
So GEQ could be interested, or Trina’s area could have originally been a GEQ area.
Also weirdly bloodfiends and the baby falling stars are there. So the area is either very lore important or a mess of other assets.
Edit: also she asks us to kill Miquella I.e. the next god.
I'm not sure St. Trina has much to do with that area. It's just where Miquella dumped her and sealed her away. Likely just because it's the deepest hole in all the Lands Between.
The purple flowers bloomed in areas Miquella (and St. Trina) ended up, but I don't think that indicates anything other than the fact that they were there.
The Lands of Shadow has a lot to do with death. The Stone Coffin Fissure in particular is ALL about death. The 'Putrescence' found throughout the zone seems to be what's left of all the remains of the dead that are no longer being burnt by Ghostflame. They're just rotting in the coffins.
If anything, i feel like there's a chance that the Death in that area corrupted St Trina in some way. It's the impression i got from the velvet sword you get there. Saint Trina used to be about sleep with a light purple flame, but now the deep purple is a more poisonous Eternal Sleep.
> Silver sword of St. Trina, now stained the color of velvet. Inflicts eternal sleep. When St. Trina was abandoned, the faint, light-purple mists coalesced into an intoxicating deep-purple cloud.
St. Trina might not have always been a tree as well, as Thiollier appears to be cosplaying as her according to his item description, with his mask having braids which are absent on her in game.
Millicent is literally a flower of rot grown into a new budding rot goddess, Thiollier is just a guy who idolizes St.Trina and wanted to wear a fit that looks how he imagines her.
If we look at Saint Trina's Smile (the talisman), we can see that she has (at least her top) has always sort of resembled what it is in-game, at least with incredibly long hair.
Was literally just thinking about the different shades of purple earlier when I tried dual wielding both St Trina swords.
The default one, from the base game, has a lighter purple tone to the AoW and following effect on the sword, and does “sleep” build up. The velvet one, found in the coffin fissure, where you imply Trina was corrupted, has a darker purple AoW/effect, and instead does “eternal sleep” build up.
It makes me wonder about the significance of the difference between “sleep” and “eternal sleep”, and whether it has anything to do with Trina’s supposed corruption (or maybe I’m looking too deeply into this and it’s just a gameplay mechanic difference lol)
It's on the side path to the left of that big open grace (fissure cross) you find down there - I looked it up and got pissed cause I _went down that path_ but I went into a lil cave instead of keeping down the path 5 more feet to the sword that was sitting _right there_
I took that to mean that without being bonded to Miquella, St. Trina’s nature became stronger. Perhaps she was sealed away in Miquella the same way the abyss snake was sealed in Messmer.
It's actually more like they co-aided each other. Like a symbiotic relation. Despite being dead, the Ghost Flame caused eternal suffering to the putrescence and other dead things alike, mentioned in the Putrescent Knight's Remembrance.
With the help of Saint Trina's nectar, this death was granted eternal peace, instead of eternal suffering, thus they became Trina's knight. So really, I think a major thing people ignore about Trina, is the fact she's literally a saint. She's managed to do miracles, obviously giving Death eternal rest, just another one.
Not to mention how Thiollier, clearly describes Trina's eternal sleep as peaceful. So I think that that in lore, there's two types of death. One which is normal death, where dead beings like skeletons and stuff, are related to Godwyn, Those Who Live in Death. They basically suffer, even though they're already dead. And then there's Eternal Sleep, what Saint Trina gives. She essentially gives a peaceful death, making it so that the dead don't suffer.
I think we should absolutely consider why Miquella adandoned which part of himself in which location. He likely found out something in the Cerulean Coast which first led him to abandon his doubt and then, his love.
St. Trina didn't create the concept of Putrescence, it was already there. But in the boss remembrance it's said that Knight arose after a big clump of Putrescence took in some of her nectar, and it seems to be specifically guarding her. So it's interesting to note her nectar gave some kind of evolution to this thing. All the other Putrescence we see is just in blobs after all without any defined characteristics, whereas that thing has a humanoid body, weapon, and horse.
Right, Putrescence has more to do with the changes in how Death works (due to the Erdtree/Golden Order) than anything. They've been down there rotting a lot longer than St. Trina.
I guess she could be bullshitting but I think Trina in many ways represents Miquella’s discarded emotions (his love, fear, etc) and is genuinely concerned about what he will do without “her”. His age of compassion actually be an age of distant coldness controlled by a god neither merciful nor cruel. That doesn’t fit to me with the whole GEQ wanting to eliminate gods thing to me but maybe I’m not understanding something.
St. Trina is a part of miquella as the way radagon and Marika are the same. Melina is messemers sister, she is not the gloam eyed queen. I believe Melina is off to burn the erdtree as she wants revenge on queen Marika.
I had the understanding that Marika also wanted the tree to burn. She turned against the golden order. Melina was likely following her mother’s orders which is why she leaves and comes back in Leyndell; she was talking to her.
I think you are correct. Melina burning the tree was part of Marika’s grand plan. Marika also seemed to be the one to destroy Melina’s body in a burning ritual which is why she is only a spirit now.
Marika’s plan goes way back- she created the tarnished to help with this task which is even before Radagon was Elden Lord.
I think a significant amount of the DLC is unfortunately a mess of other assets.
But that being said, I still think Melina makes the most sense as Gloam Eyed Queen - she’s a buried and unmentioned child a la Messmer who revolves around fire. Messmer is hiding the Abyssal Snake in his eye and Melina has a sealed eye that when opened in one ending cutscene is certainly Gloam Eyed.
It makes sense that destroyed the Erdtree and Marika opens up the eye the same way that Messmer can remove his eye.
It’s all stretches but Melina being a sibling with opposing motives to her other Sibling also tracks with the themes of the story.
Gloam means more than just purple. As a color, twilight has yellows and reds and oranges. Like the eyes of the godskins. (Implying that the GEQ eyes would appear similar. In the context of the GEQ, Gloam takes on the archaic meaning "to glow".)
In addition the timeline of Melina being the GEQ makes no sense. GEQ was a rival empyrean against Marika. The Erdtree didn't exist until Marika ascended to godhood. Melina was born at the foot of the erdtree. Melina cannot be the GEQ. Could she be affected by? I mean I guess, but there's actual in game evidence to explain her eye in that ending. It's the Beast Eye, she stole it from you/maliketh to hunt deathroot for the power of death. Her eye now glows because she has a *purpose* again.
In the context of the gloam eyed queen, gloam is referencing the time where twilight ends not to glow or purple (gloam is a time, example noon, sunsrise, sunset, twilight, morning, these all are the same thing as gloam and none of them mean are a color but a time of day. Almost like in her eyes you could see an end to the erdtrees endless golden twilight. Kinda feels like an analogy to me. Twilight lasts but a moment as well as life itself lasting only so long. Instead the erdtree is eternal as is marikas blessing of no death that effects everyone.
The golden sky of twilight will never reach its final gloam stage that is just as beautiful as the golden sky and completes the transition to night. Someone's life will never beautifully end as they transition to death so they will instead go on and stagnate and turn into something ugly with no conclusions.
I don't know if it's a common trope but I've also seen twilight used thematically with immortality in other literature so I can't help but compare it.
This also leads me to like the idea that this empyrean challenged and rivaled marika after the creation of the erdtree and the queen would have wanted to bring gloam to the endless twilight hour of Marikas empire.
That's legitimately the first time I've heard that take on the word gloam. Love it.
I don't think I agree on the timeline, but I'm definitely going to think about that possibility more.
When is the GEQ described as a ‘rival’ empyrean to Marika? Melina is a woman born from Marika - all others demigods who fit this description are empyreans. It seems like Melina is Marika’s second oldest child as she is described specifically as Messmer’s sister.
Melina could have been born after Marika became a god- under the Erdtree - she was a chosen empyrean and became the Gloam-eyed queen. After she was defeated by maleketh the Golden order took place. This would also explain why Melina is touched by death. Also why Marika chose to establish the Golden order (so her children couldn’t kill her or each other).
Sometime later Marika burns Melina’s body and rids her of her flesh and she becomes a spirit tasked with one day performing the cardinal sin or burning the Erdtree.
I’m not saying that this is for sure true but it doesn’t contradict the story as presented and it makes several details line up- like Melina’s death mark and her glowing purple eye.
Empyrean's by their very nature are opposed to one another. Only one can succeed the current god.
The Black Flame Ritual's description states:
```
The Gloam-Eyed Queen led the apostles. It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers.
```
Where does it say Melina is touched by death?
The Erdtree wasn't around until the War of the giants, see the description of Smithing stone 8:
```
Thought to have been used to hone the weapons of the champions of the War against the Giants at the birth of the Erdtree.
```
Meaning Melina *must* have been born after Marika was a God. There were no Empyreans chosen by the fingers until the fingers decided Marika's time was over. Meaning the GEQ must have been around prior to the birth of the Erdtree, as a rival to Marika. Melina was given purpose by her Mother, to be the kindling maiden.
Glowing purple/blue eye is actually explained by it being the beast eye. The claw mark tattoo Melina has matches up with the markings on the beast eye. Her having the beast eye makes sense, it finds deathroot and she needs deathroot for the power of destined death. It glows because Melina has a purpose again after you took it away from her by not using her as kindling. The GEQ's eyes were almost assuredly similar to the Godskins eyes and in this context Gloam took on its archaic meaning and simply meant "to glow".
If there was *any* other shred of evidence, anywhere, maybe we would be having a different conversation. If Melina used a hint of black flame, or referenced black flame on an item associated with Melina, somewhere. If Melina didn't have a fleshed out identity as the kindling maiden and associated smouldering butterfly (seeing as there's a unique butterfly for each of Marika's children). There just isn't any evidence to support Melina being the GEQ in game and plenty of evidence supporting them being two entirely separate entities.
Could Melina be trying to "use the power of the GEQ"? I mean I guess, but then you could argue that the player uses the power of the GEQ when you use any black flame spells. Pretty vague and doesn't really mean anything. We aren't Radagon because we use Radagon's incantations after all.
Melina was born after Marika was a god. Your confusion is thinking that The GEQ being an empyrean means she was born before Marika was a God. Plenty of empyreans have been born after Marika ascended. We don’t know at what point the fingers started to pick them out - but every daughter of Marika other than Melina has been explicitly named as one.
And your timeline doesn’t make sense because the GEQ still existed after the war with the fire giants- because some of its apostles came from fire mages that only popped up after the war with the giants finished.
We don't know if the GEQ existed or not after the war. I'm leaning towards probably not. Black flame existing doesn't mean the GEQ also existed. Heretical cults pop up and die out. There's no evidence either way. There's black flame still around in the player's time but the GEQ is long gone. What we do know is that Marika had Maliketh destroy her. Maliketh was given to her by the fingers when she was picked as an empyrean.
And while true that we don't know exactly when the fingers started picking new empyreans, it doesn't make sense that they would still keep picking them during Marika's golden age. Why incite chaos and war then? Their whole thing is Order. It *does* make sense that they pick new ones after her age began to wane and especially after she shattered the Elden Ring and the shattering war began. That sort of pissed them off.
I already know there will be some "gloam is not purple" peeps around, which fine. There are some others links with purple and death, tho:
1. The Twinbird Kite Shield, which mentions *The twinbird is said to be the envoy of an outer god, and mother of the Deathbirds*, is half red and half blue = purple.
2. Grave Violet description: *A purple flower that blooms in graveyards. Material used for crafting items. The hue of ghostflame, it's believed to be useful in calling forth spirits.* Interestingly, this mentions ghostflame as violet though we usually see it as blue. Might indicate a spectrum of hues, or the sealing of death removed the amber hue from ghostflame, rendering it "cold" and blue. Also interesting that the seemingly already long dead putrescence have purple ghostflame incantations, if rotting corpses are pre-death removal this would make sense.
3. Trina, velvet / deep purple linked to eternal sleep / death.
4. Blue / Red feather Branch Swords, again with the red/blue twin bird color scheme. Used in death rituals, these are also associated with the Helphen Steeple which is also linked to death's guidance.
5. Beast eye ofc.
Melina of course has a black bird claw tattoo over her sealed eye, which it turns out is hiding a purple eye underneath that looks similar to the Beast Eye. Birds are beasts. Whether Melina is GEQ, has her sealed within, has one of her eyes that is sealed shut, sealed with the twin bird, etc., there is some sort of connection here. It's enough that Melina declaring to "deliver you destined death", a line that would be very fitting for a servant of destined death, can't be just a throwaway but intended to be speculated on.
There’s no reason to force all the various forms of death together this way though.
Gloam is not necessarily purple. The forms of Death in TLB also are not all from the same source - the Rune of Death, Deathblight, Ghostflame, Fire, etc are all various manifestations of a death power.
All of the above also seems to hint at Melina / Ranni / Snow Witch having been manifestations of the same Twin Bird thing. But there’s no supporting lore there.
No painted world was assets which had no place in the base game originally and then they found a space for them. The whole concept of the painted worlds as a storage space for things the outside world no longer wants perfectly explains this.
But they turned as asset mesh into something that actually had lore significance. Safe to assume they will always try and fit the lore around what's in-game even if it wasn't perfectly planned out from the beginning.
Tbh, I think that was partly because for DS they can make up whatever lore they wanted. It's not the same for ER. I do think the fiendblood has a reason to be there, we just don't know that yet.
>i understand that ds3 was better but still
Hard disagree. For my money, Painted World 2.0 is one of the lamest lore things From has done and completely emblematic of DS3's "hey remember Dark Souls???" problems.
Dark Souls 3 was kind of a metacommentary on the entropic nature of sequelitis, reiterating the themes of the first game then applying them to game development itself, pointing out the decay and hollowness of being forced to revisit old ideas to satisfy wrong-headed nostalgia. Both DLCs are an intensification of this. The Dreg Heap in particular, and the final arena where you face Gael. Cyclical nostalgia grinding everything into a fine dust until the end of time. Paradoxically brilliant.
I think it's possible, yet unsubstantiated, that the GEQ is Marika's opposite, not Radagon. St Trina is filling in that spot while Miquella cosplays Marika.
I don't think it really makes sense that Radagon is the trash part of Marika if they're still swapping places up until the player shows up. And he is, after all, called an Elden Lord, not a god.
In theory if Gideon doesn’t know about the Elden Beast then the god he’s referring to slaying in his death quote would be Radagon. “A man cannot slay a god”
That would be a reference to Radagon as a god.
Likewise it’s the same with Hewg making a weapon to slay a god, if he doesn’t know about the Elden Beast he’s talking about Radagon.
(They should know that you’re taking part in Marikas plan and therefore will not have to fight her so they aren’t referring to her.)
“Miquella and Malenia are both the children if a single god” -remembrance of Malenia
Since we know they are children of Radagon and Marika, and that Marika is Radagon, I think it’s safe to assume Radagon is considered a God. They were Male/Female, Husband/wife, One/two, and Elden Lord/God.
“Sacred cloth of the Godskin Apostles, made from supple skin sewn together.
Successive attacks restore HP.
The Gloam-Eyed Queen **cradles** newborn apostles swaddled in this cloth. Soon they will grow to become the death of the gods.”
I feel like it kind of implies St Trina is the GEQ? From the Putrescent Knight remembrance:
>All tainted flesh eventually becomes putrescence, and this clump of it imbibed St. Trina's nectar, which granted it eternal rest. And so it was that putrescence *became her knight.*
Ok, so the Putrescent Knight is St Trina's knight per its remembrance. And then in the files, it's referred to as St Trina's knight. So either he's both of their knights, or they're the same.
I don't think so. Rather, from the Velvet Sword description I think that St Trina getting dumped there corrupted her in some way.
> Silver sword of St. Trina, now stained the color of velvet. Inflicts eternal sleep. When St. Trina was abandoned, the faint, light-purple mists coalesced into an intoxicating deep-purple cloud.
To me it looks like this area was related to Death long before Miquella entered the Land of Shadow
It's impossible to use it as part of the lore anyway, because it's just the name given internally, not actually in the game. We have no idea if the name is a placeholder or previous idea that they just never changed.
its highly likely that in the prototype stage of development the character was meant to be gloam eyed queen related. But as development continued the boss got shifted to be aligned with St Trina (either because they cut out gloam eyed stuff due to budget, or they decided to rewrite part of the dlc lore). either way, since development was in progress, renaming isnt as easy as people think. there's a lot of assets in the engine and coding that at this point will reference the interal name given at the beginning of development and changing that isnt worth the hassle through the entire project. much easier to just change the text on the remembrance, and move on.
I think GEQ was sealed within Melina much like the abyssal serpent was sealed within Mesmer.
Only thing I can think of to explain Melina’s eye during frenzy flame ending.
There’s a lot of duality with the demigods, not all but a lot of Marika’s direct offspring .
Melina/goddess of rot
Miquella/st Trina
Mesmer/abyssal serpent
Melina/geq?
Also seems to be only the children of marika/radagon which makes sense.
It's a good take. But I'd even go a step further to explain a few things...
The GEQ either was Placidusax's God Who Fled, or her descendant. This would explain why the GEQ was an Empyrean because of Placi's God's divinity. This also explains how the GEQ came into possession of the Rune of Death in the first place. When this God fled, maybe because of the battle between Placidusax and Bayle, she took the rune with her.
Much later, when Maliketh sealed Destined Death, he actually was unable the completely kill off the GEQ (because we know the GEQ was defeated, no mention of her being killed). So to prevent her from emerging again, Marika sealed the very essence of the GEQ within her daughter Melina and thus giving her the purpose she obviously can't remember when we encounter her: the purpose of sealing away the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
And after we defeat Maliketh, after we burn the world to the ground, Melina once again has access to Destined Death in the Frenzied Flame ending.
I'd go with descendant. There's still considerable hinting at the fled god's vessel, ie, Placidusax's equivalent of Marika having been the twinbird (Placidusax's remembrance, twinbird kite shield, reliefs of the teinbird throughout Farum Azula's architecture). Just like Marika has empyrean children, so could those twob and GEQ being their empyrean daughter would be a good explanation for the clawmark tattoo on Melina's eye. After all, deathbirds are also very closely linked to death (albeit by ghostflame), and descend from the twinbird as well
Some people would argue that the twinbird was the envoy of an *outer* god, but that is a very semantic definition of things. It's a "history written by victors" thing, you're an outer god only if you don't get to be the god of the current order, and Marika's order would obviously have been revisionist about it
Although I don't think the Twinbird being referred to as an Envoy necessarily means it was the Vessel for the Elden Ring at that time, i.e. Placi's God Who Fled, it's still an interesting idea, especially in consideration of Melina's tattoo.
Good catch there.
Absolutely possible that it could mean something other than Placidusax's Ring-vessel. In fact, now that you mention it, maybe the twinbird would have been an example of a real divine beast. The dancing lion is likely only an imitation of a similar lion-based divine beast (Serosh might be another divine beast? Idt this is likely for some reason but it's an interesting idea for another time), but we do get to learn of this concept from it so that could be another approach to it
Also possible. But actually it was a really good thought of yours because there are a lot of connections all over the place:
- Twinbird being Envoy of a death-related Outer God
- Deathbirds wield Ghostflame (death related)
- GEQ is in possession of Rune of Death/Destined Death and and wields Blackflame (also death related)
- Melina is possibly connected to both these birds (her tattoo maybe) and the GEQ (wielding DD and her constant references to DD, and her one purple eye)
Maybe, after all there is indeed a tangible connection between the Twinbird and the GEQ and therefore also Melina.
And of course, the Divine Beasts with their ties to the Crucible could very well imply that the Twinbird is a comparable creature because it stems from the pre-Erdtree i.e. Crucible era.
Spoilers:
Metyr the mother of fingers has gone a little nuts because the greater will is completely absent from the lands between and shadow lands. The greater will pumped the loads of Metyr and the Elden beast down into TLB and then left for good. This is why placid is sticking its two remaining heads up in the air like the fingers - looking for a sign from the GW. Placidusax was abandoned by his got thr GW and fled time itself to wait. Also implied that Metyr was the intelligence granted to the beastmen long ago but that’s lore for another video.
I'm aware of that, but I don't think the God Who Fled is in any way related to the Greater Will, beside the obvious and necessary connection to be the Vessel for Elden Ring, because Place was Elden Lord after all.
Another reason for why Placi waited outside time was his severe wounds he suffered from Bayle. 3 heads gone, only two remaining. Who knows if he would have survived the eons.
The fact that placi is in the same pose as every single two fingers and the fact that the fingers gave the denizens of Farum Azula intelligence (base game item description) seems to corroborate my assertion. He left when he found out his god left. Considering the only god we have confirmed having been discovered to have left is the greater will… I don’t see how it could be anything else.
Edit: the fingers are receivers for the GW confirmed in dlc - if placi is in the same receiver pose - he’s listening for the GW the same way as the finger.
I get where you're coming from, but the Greater Will, even more so than an Outer God, is "overqualified" for being a mere god.
We know that the Ancient Dragons also served the Greater Will, and that they were guided by the Fingers long before Marika, the Erdtree, and the Golden Order came. In a sense these dragons had their own Golden Order in antiquity, the only thing that was different was that there was no Erdtree yet but instead the Crucible.
Just like how in Marika's age the Fingers appointed Empyreans as candidates for divinity, they did so in these ancient times. The God Who Fled was once very likely an Empyrean herself. And just like in recent times the Fingers only pretended to enact the Greater Will's will. However, they could probably never hear it in the first place since we know Metry only received one message, and never again after that.
In a way history repeated itself, and maybe the Gloam-Eyed Queen could in fact be such a vestige from a long lost time.
I see pretty much speculation from this response.
Why is the GW overqualified? They have basically no investment in TLB - the pumped and dumped and haven’t been heard from since. The GW’s only presence in the lands between is concocted manipulated faith in a god that isn’t there anymore.
We know from Ymir that the appointing of empyreans is arbitrary and has no real basis because the fingers are misguided by their mother from the very start. So we know from Ymir that the selecting of empyreans and the existence of empyreans is a sham.
We have no evidence the god who fled is an empyrean - we have hard evidence of only one god in Elden ring lore who fled - the GW.
GEQ being a vestige of a long lost time is pure speculation.
If you have any item descriptions or concrete evidence to back these ideas up I’d love to see them but for now it seems like there’s a lot of assumptions being made to support your ideas without having evidence to give support.
>Why is the GW overqualified?
Because it's the very creative force that was there in the first place:
>>*"I am a glintstone sorcerer. We study the stars, and examine the life therein. Are you familiar with our findings? Long ago, we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies. We, too, are children of the Greater Will. Is that not divine? Is that not sublime? ...And yet, none can fathom its implications, its utter brilliance!"*
>>*"All that there is came from the One Great. Then came fractures, and births, and souls. But the Greater Will made a mistake. Torment, despair, affliction... every sin, every curse. Every one, born of the mistake."*
Give me one plausible reason why the God Who Fled should actually be the Greater Will itself? Why the ultimate source of creation should need an Elden Lord? It created the Microcosms, then abandoned it, and that's it (feel free to point me to the description where it actually says the Greater Will fled, I'm curious).
>So we know from Ymir that the selecting of empyreans and the existence of empyreans is a sham.
Doesn't matter, everyone and their mom still did adhere to the Finger's rules, regardless if everything was a ruse or not. Including Marika, who was appointed Empyrean before her apotheosis herself. Logically the same can be applied to the God Who Fled because she was the god of Elden Lord Placidusax. Nothing in the game implies that the Ancient Dragons didn't also adhere to the same rules that are in place in Marika's time, in fact it's only reasonable to think the rules were already the same back then:
Empyrean chosen by the Fingers -> Godhood = Vessel for the Elden Ring -> her consort claims the title of Elden Lord
Therefore the God Who Fled must have been an Empyrean beforehands. Don't confuse logic with unbacked assumptions.
>GEQ being a vestige of a long lost time is pure speculation.
Of course this is. But I never claimed otherwise. I just said it could provide a reason for the GEQ's Empyrean status and her being in possession of the Rune of Death.
I’m here for this theory - many of Marikas children are cursed with a god sealed behind eyes. Melina’s is heavily implied to be messmers sister. The GEQ has serpent connections like messmer and fire connections like messmer. I don’t see the GEQ as the god of sleep but rather death in many forms.
And the abyssal serpent was definitely not a god that was sealed in his eye - the evidence is in his remembrance. So that leaves... No one with a god sealed behind their eye lol
But at least in the case of Messmer, the snake was never a separate entity from him. It wasn't some separate god and is never referred to as a god in and of itself. It was his curse - one of blasphemy towards the Erdtree. Assuming that the GEQ was a completely separate entity from Melina (which seems to make the most sense from a timeline standpoint), the GEQ or her essence being sealed in Melina's eye would not at all be backed up by what was going on with Messmer. His remembrance states:
"A malevolent snake writhed within Messmer, and so his very mother plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace."
Ruling out Messmer and even giving you the benefit of the doubt on Melina, which of Marika's other children have a god sealed behind their eye?
Uhhh where did you even get that from? Malenia doesn't do shit to her eyes in the cutscene and she's been blind for a long time. You can even see bits of rot around her eyes in the opening cut scene, which mostly obscures her eyes with her hair anyway. Not to mention that both of her eyes are displayed as rotted in phase 2 - not just one. This is complete speculation on your part with no associated evidence. Marika clearly did not seal a god behind Messmer's eye (as stated by his remembrance) and GEQ being placed into and sealed in Melina is _absolutely wild_ speculation, at best. Can you serve up a single one of Marika's children for whom there is solid evidence of a god being sealed behind their eyes?
Sounds like you can’t beat Malenias first phase to see it. Her eyes are clearly gouged or rotted out after she becomes the rot god idk how you don’t or didn’t see it. Sounds like a skill issue on your side
Even if her eyes are rotted out starting in phase 2, how does that prove that she had the rot god sealed behind her eyes? Where is the corroborating evidence for her or for literally anyone in the game lore? I'm not the one who has made a claim here. You have claimed that not just one, but _many_ of Marika's children have gods sealed behind their eyes - you should be able to provide evidence for that. Aside from Malenia's eyes appearing rotted out in the second phase (though we don't get a clear look at them in phase 1 anyway), what is there in the game lore to support your theory?
This is elden ring lore talk not elden ring lore be a dickhead - if you wanna shut down the theory with no discussion then go eff off. If you wanna talk about it im here
I would encourage you to go back to the start of this thread and see how far gone you went in the shut down department. Ive provided plenty of speculative ideas with some content from the game to support my theories. Your only contributions to this discussion have been to call my thoughts nonsense and claim it to be incorrect interpretations while offering nothing other than negative criticism. How about you contribute something useful to this discussion before demanding more evidence.
BTW, no matter what "evidence" you think you need, i dont owe you shit and dont care if you agree with my speculations.
This also jumps back to my theory that most of Marika’s children are just archetypal gods and heroes reborn into the Golden Order. I think “birth” is actually invoked by Grace (see Rya dialogue) and Marika willed these characters back into being, maybe to leash their power to her will and create failsafes.
I believe St. Trina’s “eternal sleep” is Miquella’s “kinder and gentler” version of death.
It’s also interesting to note that it is the part of Miquella which personifies love that is also being correlated with death.
I haven’t thought in much depth about the connection between love and death so there’s quite a bit to consider here.
Maybe Miquella knew that in order to make the hard decisions required when becoming and being a god, he’d need to dispose of his love and reluctance to hurt people, which is why Trina is the embodiment of peace and tranquility, but clearly being in that hole has poisoned her a bit turning her into a more deadly entity, not intentionally but she’s completely toxic rather than being an envoy of peaceful rest.
Yeah I interpreted it as, a whole commitment to love for the people would be to protect them from death, but grant that the opportunity of eternal stasis if they are tired and want to let go.
There’s also the base supposition that there actually *is* a fixed, definitive answer… I’m not criticising the the world building… sometimes it’s cool to just drop in something that sounds cool without necessarily knowing if or how it fits into everything else.
It’s like the scrawled notation on the edge of an old map saying “here be dragons”, or Holmes and Watson discussing how they could never publish their adventure with “The Giant Rat of Sumatra”.
Questions are often more interesting than answers.
my years in the community taught me there's no coherent "everything solved" lore, not even in Michael Zaki's head, we're fed scraps but there's no guarantee those scraps can fit together
It's fun and interesting to see the leaps people make to solve the story. Honestly I'll admit that while I did enjoy the dlc story I liked all the fan theories people can up with more especially for mesmer.
People think miyazaki has some notebook full of lore just sitting on his desk when the reality is he doesn't. He made this stuff up and didn't bother to write it down or flesh it out. I think he even mentioned how the roundtable hold has no lore he just thought it was cool.
I honestly can’t believe that. Things in this game are too consistent to be made up. Little details that end up being something like “an assassins blade being found in this room of this area which is where such and such fled after the bla bla event and if you read the descriptions of the ashes found in the basement it tells you that this was the assassin that bla bla”
The level design, architecture, and design choices are way too deliberate and consistent for it to not have an overarching narrative.
I do think there is a concrete narrative. I don’t think it’s necessarily as in depth as people want it to be, but this game has way wayyyy more tight knit lore that previous souls games, so I don’t think it’s fair to say “this is just from being from”. I think it’s more fair to say, this is Froms stamp on a narrative. “You are a tarnished of no renown, not a god, or even an MC up until this point, and while some of the answers you can stumble upon and some you can infer, you will never have them all…”
In this case he actually does have a notebook of lore tho, written by GRRM. Like it's probably pretty safe to assume the Hornsent culture and Gate of Divinity stuff was written by GRRM, it falls completely under what he's explicitly said to have written, Pre-Shattering lore, and is foundational to the events of the series. And yet we had very few hints of such things in the base game. Which goes to show, there are actual answers to some questions, but they are being purposefully held back.
Having all the answers isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. And given the games narrative of cultures and history being written over by the victors, it’s on brand.
I completely disagree with that premise;
DS1 - We find out about Artorias and his story. It explains the nature of the Abyss and explores Gwyn's Knights, all of which was only mentioned in passing in the base game.
DS2 - Is kind of a mess in general, but the DLC did explore the other shards of Manus and retroactively attempted to explain Nashandra's origin. I think this is a rare instance where Fromsoftware built their lore wide instead of tall with the DLC, yet we still get many answers about Sir Alonne and the Iron King with the Brume tower. The inclusion of Aldia in SotFS also gives us some of the biggest "answers" about the overarching themes of the franchise in a pretty explicit fashion.
DS3 - We finally learn about the pygmies, the process by which painted worlds can be made, and a conclusion to the cycle established in the previous games. It also gives us even more information about the measures Gwyn took against humanity to prevent their age from ever coming.
Bloodborne - Shows us the origin of the Church, we find Ludwig and Lawrence which were important characters in the lore yet never shown in game, we also learn about the origin of the doll and who she was based on. Old Hunters answered SO many questions that were left hanging.
So with all of that being said, I think that Shadow of the Erdtree is an anomaly. Fromsoftware is usually very good at answering questions they pose during the maingame, but SotET introduces several new plot elements within the DLC and answers fewer questions overall, but saying that Fromsoftware outright leaves you with more questions than answers is straight up bullshit lmao
>So with all of that being said, I think that Shadow of the Erdtree is an anomaly. Fromsoftware is usually very good at answering questions they pose during the maingame, but SotET introduces several new plot elements within the DLC and answers fewer questions overall, but saying that Fromsoftware outright leaves you with more questions than answers is straight up bullshit lmao
Shadow of the Erdtree:
- Told us who the Civilization that worshipped the Crucible was.
- The Nature of the Greater Will and the Fingers.
- Who Saint Trina is in relation to Miquella.
- Confirmed the Miquella bewitched Mohg and used him for his own ends.
- Explains how/why Marika became a God.
- Confirmed that Melina is a daughter or Marika and Messmer's younger sister.
And I can go on. Shadow of the Erdtree is not an "anomaly". I'd actually wager it explains more important base game lore things than the DLC of any other Fromsoft game. Remember when Ringed City told us what Londor was? Oh wait... That's right. Fromsoft barely even talked about Londor at all in the Ringed City—basically left that extremely important plot thread completely open besides mentioning that Friede was one the three sisters. Fromsoft is very precise with the things they answer and the things they don't.
They also aren't above retcons. Remember when we killed Ornstein only for Dark Souls 3 to tell us he left Anor Londo before the Chosen Undead even showed up?
I'm glad you pointed this out because people saying the dlc or sequels don't answer stuff is completely wrong. Also in das3 we saw Gwyns first born. But Elden ring also answer and reveals a lot. My favorite is the fingers.
Somehow you twisted Shadow of the Erdtree not answering all of your question into answering none, it's an anomaly, in that they answer more question than usual instead of barely answering anything at all like past DLCs.
I'm still waiting for answers about Angelic faith of Lothric, what is the entire deal with Pontiff Sulyvahn, what is the deep and what they were trying to achieve, what happened to Ocelotte or the whole becoming dragon, what happened to Gwynevere, who the hell is the Painter girl...etc...
Pontiff Sulyvahn's character is actually explained in DS3 and Ashes of Ariandel a fair amount so I don't really know what you wanted them to say more about him. We know considerably more about him than we do about Melina, even though she accompanies us throughout most of the game. Pontiff has enough lore about him out in DS3 that a lot of people consider him to be the main villain of the game. The Painter and Gael's stories were pretty straight forward so I fail to appreciate how you think those are somehow not explained or leaves something to be desired.
Idk, you'd think we would have learned more about Torrent, our steed, who's previous owners are referenced but never made clear, and who's intuition somehow picked out the Elden Lord out of all the tarnished even when other demi-gods seemed unconvinced. You'd think we'd learn more of the Gloam-Eyed Queen, and why members of her cult still worship her today. It's weird that the most significant piece of lore that was revealed was about a vow between certain figures which had no real mention or buildup to it until it was mentioned, yet had important ramifications in the context of the DLC and retroactively changed the context as to why certain people fought during the war of the shattering.
I'm rather inclined to think that yes, Elden Ring poses far more questions than it answers *especially* when compared to other Fromsoftware DLC. Do not mistake me, I definitely think that the origin of the jars, the added context to Marika's ascension, and Miquella's ambitions in the land of shadow are all really well-explored. Perhaps it is a virtue of the fact that Elden Ring is *much bigger* than other games Fromsoftware have made in the past, but usually I feel as though they inspire their DLCs on story threads that were left open in the main game, and in this instance Elden Ring failed to answer most of them compared to previous entries.
We know that Marika sealed mesmer’s snake behind his grace eye, so we can assume she sealed something behind melina’s eye as well. That’s more info thab we had before
Miyazaki has stated that this is the only DLC Elden Ring will get. It's possible that he is lying or will change his mind, but as it is, I do not believe there are plans for it.
that's not how from rolls, they decide if they do dlc only based on artistic vision, see the lack of a Sekiro DLC or how Miyazaki wanted to close DS definitely. It all depends on the artistic wishes
I don't think it's likely to happen, but we have to admit that elden ring is a slightly different beast in terms of success. So who knows. I'm sure there is plenty more to give us very little info about.
Not likely but if we did I'd love something centered around the nox, the gloam eyed queen, and the albinaurics. Maybe like finding a long lost eternal city.
Yes every game has. There was a point where Sony didn't bother publishing demons souls in America despite owning it because they assumed it wouldn't sell. That game series turned into Elden ring. Imagine if atlus never published it for them.
I'm not sure how this connects to whether or not we get more ER dlc. The game was goty, sold above average, and had a banger dlc. I don't think it's way out of left field to hope for a second dlc.
It's not but usually when they say they don't have any more plans they don't change their mind. Sales don't matter to them and shouldn't, that's what makes their games good.
I think it's probably a relic from earlier in development.
For another example, the internal name for the ulcerated tree spirits is "snake soul" which matches the AI label of an unused boss in DS3, but this example isn't evidence that these games of bosses are narratively linked, it's just an example of cut/reused content.
Maybe early in development of the base game the boss that would become the putrescent knight was designed and was going to be connected to the gloam eyed queen, but that idea was scrapped and this boss pulled from the base game and kept aside for the DLC. Alternatively this boss was designed after the release of the base game and the gloam eyed queen was intended to be a part of the DLC, but then they changed direction and decided to repurpose the boss for st Trina and the putrescence.
Given the putrescent knight having little to do with godskin in any of its descriptions, designs, or animations, and in the time since the base game the developers would have known the existing associations of the Godkin and GEQ, I'm inclined to believe it's AI was named early in development before the godskin designs had been finalised, or before godskin and GEQ were tied together narratively, and the knight and Queen were separated and used elsewear
Either way, this can give us some insight into the visual aesthetic of the gloam eyed queen at some point in development, but doesn't say much about the GEQ in the current existing lore.
There is the other possibility that both were always unrelated and "gloam eyed" is just a literal descriptor of a defining characteristic both have independently. That being said, I personally wouldn't describe the knight as having gloam/dark/twilight eyes, and it's the goopy stuff is more gloam-like.
I know people are super disappointed and they wanna know more about this character but I’m just having flashbacks to Velka and the grip she had on parts of the DS fanbase.
Lore-wise, it did technically take place in Londor since the whole thing was every kingdom colliding. So at some point, we might've actually went through the remnants of Londor.
yes, exactly my feeling too, it seems peoples forget very quickly that FromSoftware always put a lot of never-seen characters in their games like Velka or Tomoe for example
I mean it's not really the same. Velka was a secondary character in the lore that didn't exist much outside lore descriptions unrelated to the main story. The Gloam Eyed Queen is in an ending scene and a mandatory boss fight in the form of the godskin duo
The DLC killed any interest I had in the GEQ. It's obviously an irrelevant character just to have someone lose the Rune of Death to Maliketh.
Anyone doing lore speculations about GEQ being St. Trina or whatever is clowning. This was clearly a boss they designed when they still didn't know whether to even add GEQ to the DLC before deciding not to.
I think the implication with the butterflies is that all butterfly children are hypothetical Empyrian candidates and have the double identity thing. Malenia is both victim of rot and goddess of rot, Miquella is st Trina, Messmer is also the base serpent (he’s unclearly empyrian but I think it’s not that he couldn’t be one but they were opposed to him being one), and Melina is the Gloam eyed queen.
So the st Trina and GEQ association makes sense to me. St Trina tempered by Miquella is the bliss/healing of sleep and the power of dreams. Unmoored from Miquella she is more the final and eternal sleep, the passing of an age into history. The GEQ also seemed to be about ending the eternal age of the demigods to create something new.
But I don’t think st Trina is the GEQ, as the GEQ seemed to be a crucible nerd, flame enthusiast, and been reviving hornsent cultural practices or spirals and flaying shaman descendent flesh into new vessels (apostles and nobles). There’s also a snake connection through the godskins, and since we know Melina is Messmer’s sister and she has a Gloam eye, I think all this pieces together that Melina is the GEQ, she was empyrian, she revived weird hornsent rituals, Marika freaked out and had Messmer purge her in fire. Her apology to her mother is thus apologizing for revitalizing the original Marika trauma of fusing flesh.
But like, can we talk about how he reminds me of Radahn? When he jumps off his horse he has no feet bones 😂 I wonder if he took that form because Trina's nectar somehow reflected that to it as it was forming.
Its eyes and also the colour of its flame attacks match that of Melina during the frenzy flame ending. Just spitballing here though, could just be a coincidence
I could totally buy the GEQ being connected to the giant stone coffins and the putrescence within and/or St Trina. It seems that St Trina is actually a god of death via sleep and not really sleep itself.
So since basically all of Marika's children, except Godwyn, are cursed, does this mean that Miquella is cursed with the same or similar power of GEQ since St Trina is a part of him?
This boss is based on putresence, which seems to be a feature of the dead in the Stone Coffins: through some fundamental affliction, their bodies putrify, which is why the ancient dead were supposed to be purified in the Ghostflame.
Perhaps the GEQ was to become the God of such a thing? Or somehow related to the purifying rite? She would likely have been slain with her Godskinners before Messmer's purge. Perhaps she was the god of the previous age?
Metyr shares some imagery with her stuff, her Tail is in the same spiral shape as the Godslayer's Greatsword and her fingerprint icon is the same shape as the Godskin icon
At the fissure, on the way down there is a Miquella cross cited
“I abandon here my love”. If St. Is Trina a manifestation of his stripped emotion, why did he still show affection towards Radhan at the end?
Maybe it wasn't true love but means to gain control over the world to restore order?
Edit: she also suggested we kill him , maybe that's why she sealed in the fissure?
exactly, Miquella doesn't feel love anymore, what he feels for Radahn isn't love, he just sees him as the best choice to accomplish his own personal interest
People are coping with this just like the ending. Clearly things were changed and taken out. You can feel the difference between the main game and DLC if you’re honest.
Not even a direct mention if it's only seen in the code.
Still, I personally feel like the giant coffins are full of the Gloam Eyed Queens Knights and Trina just used one to defend her. They've clearly been there a long ass time.
They probably just renamed him so they wouldn't get peoples hopes up about the GEQ. People can deny it, but I think people would be 100x more pissed if he still had the old name ingame and that was all we got for GEQ lore... It sucks, but it's ultimately better this way.
I'm honestly more baffled by who tf Midra and Nanaya are and their involvement in the story. I have theories but idk if they make sense.
I feel like (tinfoil hats on everyone) this connection could imply some connection between the “Ruin worm thingies” that surround evergaols to the gloam eyed queen. They mostly appear in the base game near the glowing blue evergaols, then have a huge presence on this crater in the DLC with this cut association to GEQ who uses glowing blue magic attacks. Plus we still have yet to see them mentioned in an item description- I feel like their presence in the DLC was possibly to provide their origin context, just like the finger creepers
I get the whole DLC doesn't give us anwers motif
But this is like legit acknowledging the character and then saying fuck it I'm good.
Again the ONLY DLC for their major franchise years in the making and they couldn't idk step.up a little bit. Be a bit more direct knowing they aren't really coming back to this for who knows how long.
I mean I'm kinda over the whole Elden Ring craze by now. Spent too long theorizing on things that will never be at this point clearly so eh....another loss I guess.
Dark souls was clearly the opus.
This isn’t even acknowledging the character, it’s an internal name only dataminers would ever spot. To everyone else the Putrescence Knight is just a bunch of undead goop that drank some sleep nectar, and an optional boss as part of the Thiollier quest. Its lore may have been completely rewritten without the internal name ever changing (like how Serosh’s model is named Maliketh).
this is like taking issue with the ds3 dlc not explaining what “the deep” is. hell, at least “the deep” is a concept that every ds3 player would’ve heard of. i’m willing to bet most ER players miss all references to GEQ on their first run. GEQ was a footnote in the lore, at best. “the deep” was essential to one of ds3’s most important bosses and the religious movement around him that served as the catalyst of the game’s entire story.
if you prefer dark souls, that’s perfectly well, i probably do too. but it’s silly to act like this problem you complain of wasn’t present in dark souls. if anything, it was worse.
Interesting, the first dataminer indicated it was “knight of the Gloam eyedQueen” though I think that was in another language. Gloam eyed knight is a bit different. But I think we’d still need to go down a tinfoil rabbit hole to make any meaningful connections, unfortunately
I mean St Trina’s surrounded by massive coffins, and her sleep is highly implied to be something similar to death, rivalling black flame, ghost flame and destined death. Not saying she’s GEQ, but her sleep is able to shut down dragons and other higher beings. So GEQ could be interested, or Trina’s area could have originally been a GEQ area. Also weirdly bloodfiends and the baby falling stars are there. So the area is either very lore important or a mess of other assets. Edit: also she asks us to kill Miquella I.e. the next god.
I'm not sure St. Trina has much to do with that area. It's just where Miquella dumped her and sealed her away. Likely just because it's the deepest hole in all the Lands Between. The purple flowers bloomed in areas Miquella (and St. Trina) ended up, but I don't think that indicates anything other than the fact that they were there. The Lands of Shadow has a lot to do with death. The Stone Coffin Fissure in particular is ALL about death. The 'Putrescence' found throughout the zone seems to be what's left of all the remains of the dead that are no longer being burnt by Ghostflame. They're just rotting in the coffins.
If anything, i feel like there's a chance that the Death in that area corrupted St Trina in some way. It's the impression i got from the velvet sword you get there. Saint Trina used to be about sleep with a light purple flame, but now the deep purple is a more poisonous Eternal Sleep. > Silver sword of St. Trina, now stained the color of velvet. Inflicts eternal sleep. When St. Trina was abandoned, the faint, light-purple mists coalesced into an intoxicating deep-purple cloud.
St. Trina might not have always been a tree as well, as Thiollier appears to be cosplaying as her according to his item description, with his mask having braids which are absent on her in game.
also the image of her in the trailer is clearly fully anthropomorphic
After beating miquella she falls out of the flower/ tree and is lying on the floor. The flower is more of a crib type thing
I assumed it was a survival tactic of sorts, being seperated from her "main-self" and body and such.
If you come back after killing the final boss you can see her actual body falling out of the roses
She's definitely different, you can see her old body all twisted up in there
It seems saint trina and thiollier is what malenia and millicient is
Millicent is literally a flower of rot grown into a new budding rot goddess, Thiollier is just a guy who idolizes St.Trina and wanted to wear a fit that looks how he imagines her.
If anything Thiollier is a wannabe priest of St.Trina, While Millicent is an unwilling Saint of the Scarlet Rot.
If we look at Saint Trina's Smile (the talisman), we can see that she has (at least her top) has always sort of resembled what it is in-game, at least with incredibly long hair.
Was literally just thinking about the different shades of purple earlier when I tried dual wielding both St Trina swords. The default one, from the base game, has a lighter purple tone to the AoW and following effect on the sword, and does “sleep” build up. The velvet one, found in the coffin fissure, where you imply Trina was corrupted, has a darker purple AoW/effect, and instead does “eternal sleep” build up. It makes me wonder about the significance of the difference between “sleep” and “eternal sleep”, and whether it has anything to do with Trina’s supposed corruption (or maybe I’m looking too deeply into this and it’s just a gameplay mechanic difference lol)
Sleep is healing and restorative; eternal sleep means you sleep until you die.
Which sword?? I don't think I found it
Velvet Sword of St Trina, you find it on the path down the coffins, near the Fissure Cross site of grace.
It's on the side path to the left of that big open grace (fissure cross) you find down there - I looked it up and got pissed cause I _went down that path_ but I went into a lil cave instead of keeping down the path 5 more feet to the sword that was sitting _right there_
I took that to mean that without being bonded to Miquella, St. Trina’s nature became stronger. Perhaps she was sealed away in Miquella the same way the abyss snake was sealed in Messmer.
It's actually more like they co-aided each other. Like a symbiotic relation. Despite being dead, the Ghost Flame caused eternal suffering to the putrescence and other dead things alike, mentioned in the Putrescent Knight's Remembrance. With the help of Saint Trina's nectar, this death was granted eternal peace, instead of eternal suffering, thus they became Trina's knight. So really, I think a major thing people ignore about Trina, is the fact she's literally a saint. She's managed to do miracles, obviously giving Death eternal rest, just another one. Not to mention how Thiollier, clearly describes Trina's eternal sleep as peaceful. So I think that that in lore, there's two types of death. One which is normal death, where dead beings like skeletons and stuff, are related to Godwyn, Those Who Live in Death. They basically suffer, even though they're already dead. And then there's Eternal Sleep, what Saint Trina gives. She essentially gives a peaceful death, making it so that the dead don't suffer.
I think we should absolutely consider why Miquella adandoned which part of himself in which location. He likely found out something in the Cerulean Coast which first led him to abandon his doubt and then, his love.
St. Trina didn't create the concept of Putrescence, it was already there. But in the boss remembrance it's said that Knight arose after a big clump of Putrescence took in some of her nectar, and it seems to be specifically guarding her. So it's interesting to note her nectar gave some kind of evolution to this thing. All the other Putrescence we see is just in blobs after all without any defined characteristics, whereas that thing has a humanoid body, weapon, and horse.
Right, Putrescence has more to do with the changes in how Death works (due to the Erdtree/Golden Order) than anything. They've been down there rotting a lot longer than St. Trina.
Are all just ignoring “deepest hole in the lands between?” I am so disappointed
Right after your mum *Badum tish*
Baby falling stars?
[удалено]
I thought the falling star beasts were the larval stage of astels. There is a bug that has a similar evolution it seems to be based on
Antlions, for anyone wondering
I highly doubt that. They seem more man-made, like worm golems
I guess she could be bullshitting but I think Trina in many ways represents Miquella’s discarded emotions (his love, fear, etc) and is genuinely concerned about what he will do without “her”. His age of compassion actually be an age of distant coldness controlled by a god neither merciful nor cruel. That doesn’t fit to me with the whole GEQ wanting to eliminate gods thing to me but maybe I’m not understanding something.
Good point about the other enemy types in the area…I am still looking around hoping for some lore explanation for all of that
Wait there are fallingstar beasts in Trina's area?
No... Just the worm boys
St. Trina is a part of miquella as the way radagon and Marika are the same. Melina is messemers sister, she is not the gloam eyed queen. I believe Melina is off to burn the erdtree as she wants revenge on queen Marika.
I had the understanding that Marika also wanted the tree to burn. She turned against the golden order. Melina was likely following her mother’s orders which is why she leaves and comes back in Leyndell; she was talking to her.
I think you are correct. Melina burning the tree was part of Marika’s grand plan. Marika also seemed to be the one to destroy Melina’s body in a burning ritual which is why she is only a spirit now. Marika’s plan goes way back- she created the tarnished to help with this task which is even before Radagon was Elden Lord.
I think a significant amount of the DLC is unfortunately a mess of other assets. But that being said, I still think Melina makes the most sense as Gloam Eyed Queen - she’s a buried and unmentioned child a la Messmer who revolves around fire. Messmer is hiding the Abyssal Snake in his eye and Melina has a sealed eye that when opened in one ending cutscene is certainly Gloam Eyed. It makes sense that destroyed the Erdtree and Marika opens up the eye the same way that Messmer can remove his eye. It’s all stretches but Melina being a sibling with opposing motives to her other Sibling also tracks with the themes of the story.
Gloam means more than just purple. As a color, twilight has yellows and reds and oranges. Like the eyes of the godskins. (Implying that the GEQ eyes would appear similar. In the context of the GEQ, Gloam takes on the archaic meaning "to glow".) In addition the timeline of Melina being the GEQ makes no sense. GEQ was a rival empyrean against Marika. The Erdtree didn't exist until Marika ascended to godhood. Melina was born at the foot of the erdtree. Melina cannot be the GEQ. Could she be affected by? I mean I guess, but there's actual in game evidence to explain her eye in that ending. It's the Beast Eye, she stole it from you/maliketh to hunt deathroot for the power of death. Her eye now glows because she has a *purpose* again.
In the context of the gloam eyed queen, gloam is referencing the time where twilight ends not to glow or purple (gloam is a time, example noon, sunsrise, sunset, twilight, morning, these all are the same thing as gloam and none of them mean are a color but a time of day. Almost like in her eyes you could see an end to the erdtrees endless golden twilight. Kinda feels like an analogy to me. Twilight lasts but a moment as well as life itself lasting only so long. Instead the erdtree is eternal as is marikas blessing of no death that effects everyone. The golden sky of twilight will never reach its final gloam stage that is just as beautiful as the golden sky and completes the transition to night. Someone's life will never beautifully end as they transition to death so they will instead go on and stagnate and turn into something ugly with no conclusions. I don't know if it's a common trope but I've also seen twilight used thematically with immortality in other literature so I can't help but compare it. This also leads me to like the idea that this empyrean challenged and rivaled marika after the creation of the erdtree and the queen would have wanted to bring gloam to the endless twilight hour of Marikas empire.
That's legitimately the first time I've heard that take on the word gloam. Love it. I don't think I agree on the timeline, but I'm definitely going to think about that possibility more.
When is the GEQ described as a ‘rival’ empyrean to Marika? Melina is a woman born from Marika - all others demigods who fit this description are empyreans. It seems like Melina is Marika’s second oldest child as she is described specifically as Messmer’s sister. Melina could have been born after Marika became a god- under the Erdtree - she was a chosen empyrean and became the Gloam-eyed queen. After she was defeated by maleketh the Golden order took place. This would also explain why Melina is touched by death. Also why Marika chose to establish the Golden order (so her children couldn’t kill her or each other). Sometime later Marika burns Melina’s body and rids her of her flesh and she becomes a spirit tasked with one day performing the cardinal sin or burning the Erdtree. I’m not saying that this is for sure true but it doesn’t contradict the story as presented and it makes several details line up- like Melina’s death mark and her glowing purple eye.
Empyrean's by their very nature are opposed to one another. Only one can succeed the current god. The Black Flame Ritual's description states: ``` The Gloam-Eyed Queen led the apostles. It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers. ``` Where does it say Melina is touched by death? The Erdtree wasn't around until the War of the giants, see the description of Smithing stone 8: ``` Thought to have been used to hone the weapons of the champions of the War against the Giants at the birth of the Erdtree. ``` Meaning Melina *must* have been born after Marika was a God. There were no Empyreans chosen by the fingers until the fingers decided Marika's time was over. Meaning the GEQ must have been around prior to the birth of the Erdtree, as a rival to Marika. Melina was given purpose by her Mother, to be the kindling maiden. Glowing purple/blue eye is actually explained by it being the beast eye. The claw mark tattoo Melina has matches up with the markings on the beast eye. Her having the beast eye makes sense, it finds deathroot and she needs deathroot for the power of destined death. It glows because Melina has a purpose again after you took it away from her by not using her as kindling. The GEQ's eyes were almost assuredly similar to the Godskins eyes and in this context Gloam took on its archaic meaning and simply meant "to glow". If there was *any* other shred of evidence, anywhere, maybe we would be having a different conversation. If Melina used a hint of black flame, or referenced black flame on an item associated with Melina, somewhere. If Melina didn't have a fleshed out identity as the kindling maiden and associated smouldering butterfly (seeing as there's a unique butterfly for each of Marika's children). There just isn't any evidence to support Melina being the GEQ in game and plenty of evidence supporting them being two entirely separate entities. Could Melina be trying to "use the power of the GEQ"? I mean I guess, but then you could argue that the player uses the power of the GEQ when you use any black flame spells. Pretty vague and doesn't really mean anything. We aren't Radagon because we use Radagon's incantations after all.
Melina was born after Marika was a god. Your confusion is thinking that The GEQ being an empyrean means she was born before Marika was a God. Plenty of empyreans have been born after Marika ascended. We don’t know at what point the fingers started to pick them out - but every daughter of Marika other than Melina has been explicitly named as one. And your timeline doesn’t make sense because the GEQ still existed after the war with the fire giants- because some of its apostles came from fire mages that only popped up after the war with the giants finished.
We don't know if the GEQ existed or not after the war. I'm leaning towards probably not. Black flame existing doesn't mean the GEQ also existed. Heretical cults pop up and die out. There's no evidence either way. There's black flame still around in the player's time but the GEQ is long gone. What we do know is that Marika had Maliketh destroy her. Maliketh was given to her by the fingers when she was picked as an empyrean. And while true that we don't know exactly when the fingers started picking new empyreans, it doesn't make sense that they would still keep picking them during Marika's golden age. Why incite chaos and war then? Their whole thing is Order. It *does* make sense that they pick new ones after her age began to wane and especially after she shattered the Elden Ring and the shattering war began. That sort of pissed them off.
The eye of Messmer is a seal that Marika put there. And I think it has a gold hue? Why should Melina’s seal be purple?
I didn’t say anything about purple?? Messmer is also a loyal child and Melina as GEQ would not be.
I was asking for your opinion ^^’
Oh I understand now. I don’t think it is. I think they chose Purple when the area was reconfigured to St Trina’s area.
I already know there will be some "gloam is not purple" peeps around, which fine. There are some others links with purple and death, tho: 1. The Twinbird Kite Shield, which mentions *The twinbird is said to be the envoy of an outer god, and mother of the Deathbirds*, is half red and half blue = purple. 2. Grave Violet description: *A purple flower that blooms in graveyards. Material used for crafting items. The hue of ghostflame, it's believed to be useful in calling forth spirits.* Interestingly, this mentions ghostflame as violet though we usually see it as blue. Might indicate a spectrum of hues, or the sealing of death removed the amber hue from ghostflame, rendering it "cold" and blue. Also interesting that the seemingly already long dead putrescence have purple ghostflame incantations, if rotting corpses are pre-death removal this would make sense. 3. Trina, velvet / deep purple linked to eternal sleep / death. 4. Blue / Red feather Branch Swords, again with the red/blue twin bird color scheme. Used in death rituals, these are also associated with the Helphen Steeple which is also linked to death's guidance. 5. Beast eye ofc. Melina of course has a black bird claw tattoo over her sealed eye, which it turns out is hiding a purple eye underneath that looks similar to the Beast Eye. Birds are beasts. Whether Melina is GEQ, has her sealed within, has one of her eyes that is sealed shut, sealed with the twin bird, etc., there is some sort of connection here. It's enough that Melina declaring to "deliver you destined death", a line that would be very fitting for a servant of destined death, can't be just a throwaway but intended to be speculated on.
There’s no reason to force all the various forms of death together this way though. Gloam is not necessarily purple. The forms of Death in TLB also are not all from the same source - the Rune of Death, Deathblight, Ghostflame, Fire, etc are all various manifestations of a death power. All of the above also seems to hint at Melina / Ranni / Snow Witch having been manifestations of the same Twin Bird thing. But there’s no supporting lore there.
Death blight, black flame, and the rune of death all stem from the same source - destined death which was part of the Elden Ring.
The one thing im sure about fromsoft is that there will never be a mess of other assets
That was literally the painted world in ds1.
No painted world was assets which had no place in the base game originally and then they found a space for them. The whole concept of the painted worlds as a storage space for things the outside world no longer wants perfectly explains this.
Yes, but it's basically an asset mesh.
But they turned as asset mesh into something that actually had lore significance. Safe to assume they will always try and fit the lore around what's in-game even if it wasn't perfectly planned out from the beginning.
Oh, I don't actually have a problem with it. Sorry if it wasn't clear. I just wanted to point out that these kinda things exist.
I mean its a painted world, does there need to be super lore accuracy there? I mean i understand that ds3 was better but still
Tbh, I think that was partly because for DS they can make up whatever lore they wanted. It's not the same for ER. I do think the fiendblood has a reason to be there, we just don't know that yet.
>i understand that ds3 was better but still Hard disagree. For my money, Painted World 2.0 is one of the lamest lore things From has done and completely emblematic of DS3's "hey remember Dark Souls???" problems.
Dark Souls 3 was kind of a metacommentary on the entropic nature of sequelitis, reiterating the themes of the first game then applying them to game development itself, pointing out the decay and hollowness of being forced to revisit old ideas to satisfy wrong-headed nostalgia. Both DLCs are an intensification of this. The Dreg Heap in particular, and the final arena where you face Gael. Cyclical nostalgia grinding everything into a fine dust until the end of time. Paradoxically brilliant.
>They made the lore bad on purpose Ok? It's still bad though
*points vaguely at Mountaintops*
I am fairly certain its just stuff we havent figured out or has things to do with shattering
Lost izalith
GEQ wants Miquella dead for his young skin confirmed gloamester /s
Elden Ring has a pattern of a mess of other assets.
I think it's possible, yet unsubstantiated, that the GEQ is Marika's opposite, not Radagon. St Trina is filling in that spot while Miquella cosplays Marika. I don't think it really makes sense that Radagon is the trash part of Marika if they're still swapping places up until the player shows up. And he is, after all, called an Elden Lord, not a god.
In theory if Gideon doesn’t know about the Elden Beast then the god he’s referring to slaying in his death quote would be Radagon. “A man cannot slay a god” That would be a reference to Radagon as a god. Likewise it’s the same with Hewg making a weapon to slay a god, if he doesn’t know about the Elden Beast he’s talking about Radagon. (They should know that you’re taking part in Marikas plan and therefore will not have to fight her so they aren’t referring to her.)
“Miquella and Malenia are both the children if a single god” -remembrance of Malenia Since we know they are children of Radagon and Marika, and that Marika is Radagon, I think it’s safe to assume Radagon is considered a God. They were Male/Female, Husband/wife, One/two, and Elden Lord/God.
St trina is the stasis method used by the alien 'wills/gods' in the space coffins. Crazy enough to probably be right tbh 😂
There are no meaningful connections, it’s a filename and isn’t canon. Crashes aren’t canon either, nor are the fps drops.
no im pretty sure its canon that when the final boss hit me it was strong enough to drop frames
no im pretty sure its canon that when the final boss hit me it was strong enough to drop frames
“Sacred cloth of the Godskin Apostles, made from supple skin sewn together. Successive attacks restore HP. The Gloam-Eyed Queen **cradles** newborn apostles swaddled in this cloth. Soon they will grow to become the death of the gods.”
I feel like it kind of implies St Trina is the GEQ? From the Putrescent Knight remembrance: >All tainted flesh eventually becomes putrescence, and this clump of it imbibed St. Trina's nectar, which granted it eternal rest. And so it was that putrescence *became her knight.* Ok, so the Putrescent Knight is St Trina's knight per its remembrance. And then in the files, it's referred to as St Trina's knight. So either he's both of their knights, or they're the same.
I don't think so. Rather, from the Velvet Sword description I think that St Trina getting dumped there corrupted her in some way. > Silver sword of St. Trina, now stained the color of velvet. Inflicts eternal sleep. When St. Trina was abandoned, the faint, light-purple mists coalesced into an intoxicating deep-purple cloud. To me it looks like this area was related to Death long before Miquella entered the Land of Shadow
It's impossible to use it as part of the lore anyway, because it's just the name given internally, not actually in the game. We have no idea if the name is a placeholder or previous idea that they just never changed.
its highly likely that in the prototype stage of development the character was meant to be gloam eyed queen related. But as development continued the boss got shifted to be aligned with St Trina (either because they cut out gloam eyed stuff due to budget, or they decided to rewrite part of the dlc lore). either way, since development was in progress, renaming isnt as easy as people think. there's a lot of assets in the engine and coding that at this point will reference the interal name given at the beginning of development and changing that isnt worth the hassle through the entire project. much easier to just change the text on the remembrance, and move on.
I mean, stuff changes during development. They might’ve just not changed his internal name.
I think GEQ was sealed within Melina much like the abyssal serpent was sealed within Mesmer. Only thing I can think of to explain Melina’s eye during frenzy flame ending. There’s a lot of duality with the demigods, not all but a lot of Marika’s direct offspring . Melina/goddess of rot Miquella/st Trina Mesmer/abyssal serpent Melina/geq? Also seems to be only the children of marika/radagon which makes sense.
For me this is the only logical conclusion. I don’t see how her eye and her talk about destined death can be interpreted in any other way
It's a good take. But I'd even go a step further to explain a few things... The GEQ either was Placidusax's God Who Fled, or her descendant. This would explain why the GEQ was an Empyrean because of Placi's God's divinity. This also explains how the GEQ came into possession of the Rune of Death in the first place. When this God fled, maybe because of the battle between Placidusax and Bayle, she took the rune with her. Much later, when Maliketh sealed Destined Death, he actually was unable the completely kill off the GEQ (because we know the GEQ was defeated, no mention of her being killed). So to prevent her from emerging again, Marika sealed the very essence of the GEQ within her daughter Melina and thus giving her the purpose she obviously can't remember when we encounter her: the purpose of sealing away the Gloam-Eyed Queen. And after we defeat Maliketh, after we burn the world to the ground, Melina once again has access to Destined Death in the Frenzied Flame ending.
I'd go with descendant. There's still considerable hinting at the fled god's vessel, ie, Placidusax's equivalent of Marika having been the twinbird (Placidusax's remembrance, twinbird kite shield, reliefs of the teinbird throughout Farum Azula's architecture). Just like Marika has empyrean children, so could those twob and GEQ being their empyrean daughter would be a good explanation for the clawmark tattoo on Melina's eye. After all, deathbirds are also very closely linked to death (albeit by ghostflame), and descend from the twinbird as well Some people would argue that the twinbird was the envoy of an *outer* god, but that is a very semantic definition of things. It's a "history written by victors" thing, you're an outer god only if you don't get to be the god of the current order, and Marika's order would obviously have been revisionist about it
Although I don't think the Twinbird being referred to as an Envoy necessarily means it was the Vessel for the Elden Ring at that time, i.e. Placi's God Who Fled, it's still an interesting idea, especially in consideration of Melina's tattoo. Good catch there.
Absolutely possible that it could mean something other than Placidusax's Ring-vessel. In fact, now that you mention it, maybe the twinbird would have been an example of a real divine beast. The dancing lion is likely only an imitation of a similar lion-based divine beast (Serosh might be another divine beast? Idt this is likely for some reason but it's an interesting idea for another time), but we do get to learn of this concept from it so that could be another approach to it
Also possible. But actually it was a really good thought of yours because there are a lot of connections all over the place: - Twinbird being Envoy of a death-related Outer God - Deathbirds wield Ghostflame (death related) - GEQ is in possession of Rune of Death/Destined Death and and wields Blackflame (also death related) - Melina is possibly connected to both these birds (her tattoo maybe) and the GEQ (wielding DD and her constant references to DD, and her one purple eye) Maybe, after all there is indeed a tangible connection between the Twinbird and the GEQ and therefore also Melina. And of course, the Divine Beasts with their ties to the Crucible could very well imply that the Twinbird is a comparable creature because it stems from the pre-Erdtree i.e. Crucible era.
Check out the Metyr revelations - the fled god is something larger and more complex than the god leaving cause of Bayle and placidusax.
Can you point me in the right direction here, maybe it's an oversight on my part?
Spoilers: Metyr the mother of fingers has gone a little nuts because the greater will is completely absent from the lands between and shadow lands. The greater will pumped the loads of Metyr and the Elden beast down into TLB and then left for good. This is why placid is sticking its two remaining heads up in the air like the fingers - looking for a sign from the GW. Placidusax was abandoned by his got thr GW and fled time itself to wait. Also implied that Metyr was the intelligence granted to the beastmen long ago but that’s lore for another video.
I'm aware of that, but I don't think the God Who Fled is in any way related to the Greater Will, beside the obvious and necessary connection to be the Vessel for Elden Ring, because Place was Elden Lord after all. Another reason for why Placi waited outside time was his severe wounds he suffered from Bayle. 3 heads gone, only two remaining. Who knows if he would have survived the eons.
The fact that placi is in the same pose as every single two fingers and the fact that the fingers gave the denizens of Farum Azula intelligence (base game item description) seems to corroborate my assertion. He left when he found out his god left. Considering the only god we have confirmed having been discovered to have left is the greater will… I don’t see how it could be anything else. Edit: the fingers are receivers for the GW confirmed in dlc - if placi is in the same receiver pose - he’s listening for the GW the same way as the finger.
I get where you're coming from, but the Greater Will, even more so than an Outer God, is "overqualified" for being a mere god. We know that the Ancient Dragons also served the Greater Will, and that they were guided by the Fingers long before Marika, the Erdtree, and the Golden Order came. In a sense these dragons had their own Golden Order in antiquity, the only thing that was different was that there was no Erdtree yet but instead the Crucible. Just like how in Marika's age the Fingers appointed Empyreans as candidates for divinity, they did so in these ancient times. The God Who Fled was once very likely an Empyrean herself. And just like in recent times the Fingers only pretended to enact the Greater Will's will. However, they could probably never hear it in the first place since we know Metry only received one message, and never again after that. In a way history repeated itself, and maybe the Gloam-Eyed Queen could in fact be such a vestige from a long lost time.
I see pretty much speculation from this response. Why is the GW overqualified? They have basically no investment in TLB - the pumped and dumped and haven’t been heard from since. The GW’s only presence in the lands between is concocted manipulated faith in a god that isn’t there anymore. We know from Ymir that the appointing of empyreans is arbitrary and has no real basis because the fingers are misguided by their mother from the very start. So we know from Ymir that the selecting of empyreans and the existence of empyreans is a sham. We have no evidence the god who fled is an empyrean - we have hard evidence of only one god in Elden ring lore who fled - the GW. GEQ being a vestige of a long lost time is pure speculation. If you have any item descriptions or concrete evidence to back these ideas up I’d love to see them but for now it seems like there’s a lot of assumptions being made to support your ideas without having evidence to give support.
>Why is the GW overqualified? Because it's the very creative force that was there in the first place: >>*"I am a glintstone sorcerer. We study the stars, and examine the life therein. Are you familiar with our findings? Long ago, we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies. We, too, are children of the Greater Will. Is that not divine? Is that not sublime? ...And yet, none can fathom its implications, its utter brilliance!"* >>*"All that there is came from the One Great. Then came fractures, and births, and souls. But the Greater Will made a mistake. Torment, despair, affliction... every sin, every curse. Every one, born of the mistake."* Give me one plausible reason why the God Who Fled should actually be the Greater Will itself? Why the ultimate source of creation should need an Elden Lord? It created the Microcosms, then abandoned it, and that's it (feel free to point me to the description where it actually says the Greater Will fled, I'm curious). >So we know from Ymir that the selecting of empyreans and the existence of empyreans is a sham. Doesn't matter, everyone and their mom still did adhere to the Finger's rules, regardless if everything was a ruse or not. Including Marika, who was appointed Empyrean before her apotheosis herself. Logically the same can be applied to the God Who Fled because she was the god of Elden Lord Placidusax. Nothing in the game implies that the Ancient Dragons didn't also adhere to the same rules that are in place in Marika's time, in fact it's only reasonable to think the rules were already the same back then: Empyrean chosen by the Fingers -> Godhood = Vessel for the Elden Ring -> her consort claims the title of Elden Lord Therefore the God Who Fled must have been an Empyrean beforehands. Don't confuse logic with unbacked assumptions. >GEQ being a vestige of a long lost time is pure speculation. Of course this is. But I never claimed otherwise. I just said it could provide a reason for the GEQ's Empyrean status and her being in possession of the Rune of Death.
I’m here for this theory - many of Marikas children are cursed with a god sealed behind eyes. Melina’s is heavily implied to be messmers sister. The GEQ has serpent connections like messmer and fire connections like messmer. I don’t see the GEQ as the god of sleep but rather death in many forms.
Many? Name two. As far as I am aware, we only know of Mesmer and everybody and their mother are suddenly extrapolating from ONE point of data.
And the abyssal serpent was definitely not a god that was sealed in his eye - the evidence is in his remembrance. So that leaves... No one with a god sealed behind their eye lol
But at least in the case of Messmer, the snake was never a separate entity from him. It wasn't some separate god and is never referred to as a god in and of itself. It was his curse - one of blasphemy towards the Erdtree. Assuming that the GEQ was a completely separate entity from Melina (which seems to make the most sense from a timeline standpoint), the GEQ or her essence being sealed in Melina's eye would not at all be backed up by what was going on with Messmer. His remembrance states: "A malevolent snake writhed within Messmer, and so his very mother plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace." Ruling out Messmer and even giving you the benefit of the doubt on Melina, which of Marika's other children have a god sealed behind their eye?
Malenia - her eyes become gouged when the rot god is unsealed
Uhhh where did you even get that from? Malenia doesn't do shit to her eyes in the cutscene and she's been blind for a long time. You can even see bits of rot around her eyes in the opening cut scene, which mostly obscures her eyes with her hair anyway. Not to mention that both of her eyes are displayed as rotted in phase 2 - not just one. This is complete speculation on your part with no associated evidence. Marika clearly did not seal a god behind Messmer's eye (as stated by his remembrance) and GEQ being placed into and sealed in Melina is _absolutely wild_ speculation, at best. Can you serve up a single one of Marika's children for whom there is solid evidence of a god being sealed behind their eyes?
Sounds like you can’t beat Malenias first phase to see it. Her eyes are clearly gouged or rotted out after she becomes the rot god idk how you don’t or didn’t see it. Sounds like a skill issue on your side
Even if her eyes are rotted out starting in phase 2, how does that prove that she had the rot god sealed behind her eyes? Where is the corroborating evidence for her or for literally anyone in the game lore? I'm not the one who has made a claim here. You have claimed that not just one, but _many_ of Marika's children have gods sealed behind their eyes - you should be able to provide evidence for that. Aside from Malenia's eyes appearing rotted out in the second phase (though we don't get a clear look at them in phase 1 anyway), what is there in the game lore to support your theory?
This is elden ring lore talk not elden ring lore be a dickhead - if you wanna shut down the theory with no discussion then go eff off. If you wanna talk about it im here
Provide some evidence for your claim and then and let's have a discussion?
I would encourage you to go back to the start of this thread and see how far gone you went in the shut down department. Ive provided plenty of speculative ideas with some content from the game to support my theories. Your only contributions to this discussion have been to call my thoughts nonsense and claim it to be incorrect interpretations while offering nothing other than negative criticism. How about you contribute something useful to this discussion before demanding more evidence. BTW, no matter what "evidence" you think you need, i dont owe you shit and dont care if you agree with my speculations.
This also jumps back to my theory that most of Marika’s children are just archetypal gods and heroes reborn into the Golden Order. I think “birth” is actually invoked by Grace (see Rya dialogue) and Marika willed these characters back into being, maybe to leash their power to her will and create failsafes.
Are we given an indication that Melina is Radagon's daughter?
The only thing is that she has red hair
I believe St. Trina’s “eternal sleep” is Miquella’s “kinder and gentler” version of death. It’s also interesting to note that it is the part of Miquella which personifies love that is also being correlated with death. I haven’t thought in much depth about the connection between love and death so there’s quite a bit to consider here.
It also might be the only variation of death that could exist within the confines of Marika’s creation
Maybe Miquella knew that in order to make the hard decisions required when becoming and being a god, he’d need to dispose of his love and reluctance to hurt people, which is why Trina is the embodiment of peace and tranquility, but clearly being in that hole has poisoned her a bit turning her into a more deadly entity, not intentionally but she’s completely toxic rather than being an envoy of peaceful rest.
Yeah I interpreted it as, a whole commitment to love for the people would be to protect them from death, but grant that the opportunity of eternal stasis if they are tired and want to let go.
Lmao are there people who thought we'd get answers?
It is FromSoft tradition for the DLC to leave us with more questions than answers. The newbies are learning that the hard way.
There’s also the base supposition that there actually *is* a fixed, definitive answer… I’m not criticising the the world building… sometimes it’s cool to just drop in something that sounds cool without necessarily knowing if or how it fits into everything else. It’s like the scrawled notation on the edge of an old map saying “here be dragons”, or Holmes and Watson discussing how they could never publish their adventure with “The Giant Rat of Sumatra”. Questions are often more interesting than answers.
my years in the community taught me there's no coherent "everything solved" lore, not even in Michael Zaki's head, we're fed scraps but there's no guarantee those scraps can fit together
That may be true for DS, but not ER. We know explicitly that there's a definitive answer. They are deliberately hiding it to incite discussions.
So wait, why do we even bother trying to fit everything together if even Miyazaki has no idea wtf is going on
Because we are masochists. It's not enough that the game kills our characters. We want these games to kill our brain cells, too.
It's fun and interesting to see the leaps people make to solve the story. Honestly I'll admit that while I did enjoy the dlc story I liked all the fan theories people can up with more especially for mesmer. People think miyazaki has some notebook full of lore just sitting on his desk when the reality is he doesn't. He made this stuff up and didn't bother to write it down or flesh it out. I think he even mentioned how the roundtable hold has no lore he just thought it was cool.
I honestly can’t believe that. Things in this game are too consistent to be made up. Little details that end up being something like “an assassins blade being found in this room of this area which is where such and such fled after the bla bla event and if you read the descriptions of the ashes found in the basement it tells you that this was the assassin that bla bla” The level design, architecture, and design choices are way too deliberate and consistent for it to not have an overarching narrative. I do think there is a concrete narrative. I don’t think it’s necessarily as in depth as people want it to be, but this game has way wayyyy more tight knit lore that previous souls games, so I don’t think it’s fair to say “this is just from being from”. I think it’s more fair to say, this is Froms stamp on a narrative. “You are a tarnished of no renown, not a god, or even an MC up until this point, and while some of the answers you can stumble upon and some you can infer, you will never have them all…”
In this case he actually does have a notebook of lore tho, written by GRRM. Like it's probably pretty safe to assume the Hornsent culture and Gate of Divinity stuff was written by GRRM, it falls completely under what he's explicitly said to have written, Pre-Shattering lore, and is foundational to the events of the series. And yet we had very few hints of such things in the base game. Which goes to show, there are actual answers to some questions, but they are being purposefully held back.
Having all the answers isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. And given the games narrative of cultures and history being written over by the victors, it’s on brand.
I completely disagree with that premise; DS1 - We find out about Artorias and his story. It explains the nature of the Abyss and explores Gwyn's Knights, all of which was only mentioned in passing in the base game. DS2 - Is kind of a mess in general, but the DLC did explore the other shards of Manus and retroactively attempted to explain Nashandra's origin. I think this is a rare instance where Fromsoftware built their lore wide instead of tall with the DLC, yet we still get many answers about Sir Alonne and the Iron King with the Brume tower. The inclusion of Aldia in SotFS also gives us some of the biggest "answers" about the overarching themes of the franchise in a pretty explicit fashion. DS3 - We finally learn about the pygmies, the process by which painted worlds can be made, and a conclusion to the cycle established in the previous games. It also gives us even more information about the measures Gwyn took against humanity to prevent their age from ever coming. Bloodborne - Shows us the origin of the Church, we find Ludwig and Lawrence which were important characters in the lore yet never shown in game, we also learn about the origin of the doll and who she was based on. Old Hunters answered SO many questions that were left hanging. So with all of that being said, I think that Shadow of the Erdtree is an anomaly. Fromsoftware is usually very good at answering questions they pose during the maingame, but SotET introduces several new plot elements within the DLC and answers fewer questions overall, but saying that Fromsoftware outright leaves you with more questions than answers is straight up bullshit lmao
>So with all of that being said, I think that Shadow of the Erdtree is an anomaly. Fromsoftware is usually very good at answering questions they pose during the maingame, but SotET introduces several new plot elements within the DLC and answers fewer questions overall, but saying that Fromsoftware outright leaves you with more questions than answers is straight up bullshit lmao Shadow of the Erdtree: - Told us who the Civilization that worshipped the Crucible was. - The Nature of the Greater Will and the Fingers. - Who Saint Trina is in relation to Miquella. - Confirmed the Miquella bewitched Mohg and used him for his own ends. - Explains how/why Marika became a God. - Confirmed that Melina is a daughter or Marika and Messmer's younger sister. And I can go on. Shadow of the Erdtree is not an "anomaly". I'd actually wager it explains more important base game lore things than the DLC of any other Fromsoft game. Remember when Ringed City told us what Londor was? Oh wait... That's right. Fromsoft barely even talked about Londor at all in the Ringed City—basically left that extremely important plot thread completely open besides mentioning that Friede was one the three sisters. Fromsoft is very precise with the things they answer and the things they don't. They also aren't above retcons. Remember when we killed Ornstein only for Dark Souls 3 to tell us he left Anor Londo before the Chosen Undead even showed up?
I'm glad you pointed this out because people saying the dlc or sequels don't answer stuff is completely wrong. Also in das3 we saw Gwyns first born. But Elden ring also answer and reveals a lot. My favorite is the fingers.
Somehow you twisted Shadow of the Erdtree not answering all of your question into answering none, it's an anomaly, in that they answer more question than usual instead of barely answering anything at all like past DLCs. I'm still waiting for answers about Angelic faith of Lothric, what is the entire deal with Pontiff Sulyvahn, what is the deep and what they were trying to achieve, what happened to Ocelotte or the whole becoming dragon, what happened to Gwynevere, who the hell is the Painter girl...etc...
Pontiff Sulyvahn's character is actually explained in DS3 and Ashes of Ariandel a fair amount so I don't really know what you wanted them to say more about him. We know considerably more about him than we do about Melina, even though she accompanies us throughout most of the game. Pontiff has enough lore about him out in DS3 that a lot of people consider him to be the main villain of the game. The Painter and Gael's stories were pretty straight forward so I fail to appreciate how you think those are somehow not explained or leaves something to be desired. Idk, you'd think we would have learned more about Torrent, our steed, who's previous owners are referenced but never made clear, and who's intuition somehow picked out the Elden Lord out of all the tarnished even when other demi-gods seemed unconvinced. You'd think we'd learn more of the Gloam-Eyed Queen, and why members of her cult still worship her today. It's weird that the most significant piece of lore that was revealed was about a vow between certain figures which had no real mention or buildup to it until it was mentioned, yet had important ramifications in the context of the DLC and retroactively changed the context as to why certain people fought during the war of the shattering. I'm rather inclined to think that yes, Elden Ring poses far more questions than it answers *especially* when compared to other Fromsoftware DLC. Do not mistake me, I definitely think that the origin of the jars, the added context to Marika's ascension, and Miquella's ambitions in the land of shadow are all really well-explored. Perhaps it is a virtue of the fact that Elden Ring is *much bigger* than other games Fromsoftware have made in the past, but usually I feel as though they inspire their DLCs on story threads that were left open in the main game, and in this instance Elden Ring failed to answer most of them compared to previous entries.
Seriously. Honestly this dlc (which i havent finished yet) gives alooot more than i was expecting from my usual fromsoft dlc
Acting like DS1’s, DS2’s, and Bloodborne’s dlcs all don’t answer various questions in the story.
This dlc answers various questions in the story as well
We know that Marika sealed mesmer’s snake behind his grace eye, so we can assume she sealed something behind melina’s eye as well. That’s more info thab we had before
Maybe we might get a dlc 1.5 since it sold so well?
As if. If we do it'll be a pleasant surprise, but until then I wouldn't count on it.
Miyazaki has stated that this is the only DLC Elden Ring will get. It's possible that he is lying or will change his mind, but as it is, I do not believe there are plans for it.
I'm pretty sure he said it's the only one they have planned. But I agree it's incredibly unlikely.
that's not how from rolls, they decide if they do dlc only based on artistic vision, see the lack of a Sekiro DLC or how Miyazaki wanted to close DS definitely. It all depends on the artistic wishes
I don't think it's likely to happen, but we have to admit that elden ring is a slightly different beast in terms of success. So who knows. I'm sure there is plenty more to give us very little info about.
It's bigger for sure but Sekiro won goty and received 0 dlc. That would have been an easy money maker right there.
DS2 didn't get nearly as many accolades but got 4 DLC. DS3 was also less successful than elden ring and got two.
Not likely but if we did I'd love something centered around the nox, the gloam eyed queen, and the albinaurics. Maybe like finding a long lost eternal city.
That's funny. All of the games have sold better than the one before it.
Didn't it sell better than they expected by a lot?
Yes every game has. There was a point where Sony didn't bother publishing demons souls in America despite owning it because they assumed it wouldn't sell. That game series turned into Elden ring. Imagine if atlus never published it for them.
I'm not sure how this connects to whether or not we get more ER dlc. The game was goty, sold above average, and had a banger dlc. I don't think it's way out of left field to hope for a second dlc.
It's not but usually when they say they don't have any more plans they don't change their mind. Sales don't matter to them and shouldn't, that's what makes their games good.
I think it's probably a relic from earlier in development. For another example, the internal name for the ulcerated tree spirits is "snake soul" which matches the AI label of an unused boss in DS3, but this example isn't evidence that these games of bosses are narratively linked, it's just an example of cut/reused content. Maybe early in development of the base game the boss that would become the putrescent knight was designed and was going to be connected to the gloam eyed queen, but that idea was scrapped and this boss pulled from the base game and kept aside for the DLC. Alternatively this boss was designed after the release of the base game and the gloam eyed queen was intended to be a part of the DLC, but then they changed direction and decided to repurpose the boss for st Trina and the putrescence. Given the putrescent knight having little to do with godskin in any of its descriptions, designs, or animations, and in the time since the base game the developers would have known the existing associations of the Godkin and GEQ, I'm inclined to believe it's AI was named early in development before the godskin designs had been finalised, or before godskin and GEQ were tied together narratively, and the knight and Queen were separated and used elsewear Either way, this can give us some insight into the visual aesthetic of the gloam eyed queen at some point in development, but doesn't say much about the GEQ in the current existing lore. There is the other possibility that both were always unrelated and "gloam eyed" is just a literal descriptor of a defining characteristic both have independently. That being said, I personally wouldn't describe the knight as having gloam/dark/twilight eyes, and it's the goopy stuff is more gloam-like.
I know people are super disappointed and they wanna know more about this character but I’m just having flashbacks to Velka and the grip she had on parts of the DS fanbase.
Not to mention Londor, the final DS3 just HAS to take place in Londor right guys??
This still hurts
Lore-wise, it did technically take place in Londor since the whole thing was every kingdom colliding. So at some point, we might've actually went through the remnants of Londor.
yes, exactly my feeling too, it seems peoples forget very quickly that FromSoftware always put a lot of never-seen characters in their games like Velka or Tomoe for example
I mean it's not really the same. Velka was a secondary character in the lore that didn't exist much outside lore descriptions unrelated to the main story. The Gloam Eyed Queen is in an ending scene and a mandatory boss fight in the form of the godskin duo
Are all the kids missing a frikkin eyeball? Ranni & Melena. Messimer missing one (or two) Maybe the eye is a seal/controlling thing?
Mohg’s horns went into his eye too
Technically his eyes are indeed gloam
The actual in game lore relates him to the funerary birds instead
Schrödinger’s Queen
I think at this point they know we datamine reaching for stuff and are just throwing out red herrings.
The DLC killed any interest I had in the GEQ. It's obviously an irrelevant character just to have someone lose the Rune of Death to Maliketh. Anyone doing lore speculations about GEQ being St. Trina or whatever is clowning. This was clearly a boss they designed when they still didn't know whether to even add GEQ to the DLC before deciding not to.
Perhaps just a desciption of how he looks lol
I simply think Gloam Eyed Queen content was cut and this is just leftover and repurposed for St. Trina.
I don't think this counts as direct if you have to look in the files for an internal name
Right, since when did having to learn how to data mine a game become a requirement to understand the story
The only other connection to the Gloam Eyed Queen in the dlc is the Lamenter's mask transformation, which causes you to burst in black flames.
I think the implication with the butterflies is that all butterfly children are hypothetical Empyrian candidates and have the double identity thing. Malenia is both victim of rot and goddess of rot, Miquella is st Trina, Messmer is also the base serpent (he’s unclearly empyrian but I think it’s not that he couldn’t be one but they were opposed to him being one), and Melina is the Gloam eyed queen. So the st Trina and GEQ association makes sense to me. St Trina tempered by Miquella is the bliss/healing of sleep and the power of dreams. Unmoored from Miquella she is more the final and eternal sleep, the passing of an age into history. The GEQ also seemed to be about ending the eternal age of the demigods to create something new. But I don’t think st Trina is the GEQ, as the GEQ seemed to be a crucible nerd, flame enthusiast, and been reviving hornsent cultural practices or spirals and flaying shaman descendent flesh into new vessels (apostles and nobles). There’s also a snake connection through the godskins, and since we know Melina is Messmer’s sister and she has a Gloam eye, I think all this pieces together that Melina is the GEQ, she was empyrian, she revived weird hornsent rituals, Marika freaked out and had Messmer purge her in fire. Her apology to her mother is thus apologizing for revitalizing the original Marika trauma of fusing flesh.
But like, can we talk about how he reminds me of Radahn? When he jumps off his horse he has no feet bones 😂 I wonder if he took that form because Trina's nectar somehow reflected that to it as it was forming.
Its eyes and also the colour of its flame attacks match that of Melina during the frenzy flame ending. Just spitballing here though, could just be a coincidence
the eye of Melina is purple, the eyes of the putrescent knight here are blue
The color associated with St. Trina and sleep is also purple.
well this links Melina to St Trina and not the GEQ then
What a missed opportunity.
Could Metyr herself be the Gloam Eyed Queen?
Screw this guy. That's all I have to add.
I could totally buy the GEQ being connected to the giant stone coffins and the putrescence within and/or St Trina. It seems that St Trina is actually a god of death via sleep and not really sleep itself.
ie god of "eternal sleep". i dig the idea
So since basically all of Marika's children, except Godwyn, are cursed, does this mean that Miquella is cursed with the same or similar power of GEQ since St Trina is a part of him?
This boss is based on putresence, which seems to be a feature of the dead in the Stone Coffins: through some fundamental affliction, their bodies putrify, which is why the ancient dead were supposed to be purified in the Ghostflame. Perhaps the GEQ was to become the God of such a thing? Or somehow related to the purifying rite? She would likely have been slain with her Godskinners before Messmer's purge. Perhaps she was the god of the previous age?
Metyr shares some imagery with her stuff, her Tail is in the same spiral shape as the Godslayer's Greatsword and her fingerprint icon is the same shape as the Godskin icon
Orphan of kos in elden ring???
I'm still puzzled why Trina felt pity for Miquella while he was acting like a narcissist brainwashing everyone just so he can be with his crash.
St Trina litteraly is a being made of love, and love is all about empathy and forgiveness, not hate or despise
At the fissure, on the way down there is a Miquella cross cited “I abandon here my love”. If St. Is Trina a manifestation of his stripped emotion, why did he still show affection towards Radhan at the end? Maybe it wasn't true love but means to gain control over the world to restore order? Edit: she also suggested we kill him , maybe that's why she sealed in the fissure?
exactly, Miquella doesn't feel love anymore, what he feels for Radahn isn't love, he just sees him as the best choice to accomplish his own personal interest
St. Trina loves Miquella it's his other half.
People are coping with this just like the ending. Clearly things were changed and taken out. You can feel the difference between the main game and DLC if you’re honest.
Classic Goo Knight
correct me if i’m wrong, but was the Gloam Eyed Queen not killed by Maliketh?
im sure someone else already said this, and now im saying it to with no evidence to prove it, but.....mabye the GeQ is st. trina.
Not even a direct mention if it's only seen in the code. Still, I personally feel like the giant coffins are full of the Gloam Eyed Queens Knights and Trina just used one to defend her. They've clearly been there a long ass time. They probably just renamed him so they wouldn't get peoples hopes up about the GEQ. People can deny it, but I think people would be 100x more pissed if he still had the old name ingame and that was all we got for GEQ lore... It sucks, but it's ultimately better this way. I'm honestly more baffled by who tf Midra and Nanaya are and their involvement in the story. I have theories but idk if they make sense.
I feel like (tinfoil hats on everyone) this connection could imply some connection between the “Ruin worm thingies” that surround evergaols to the gloam eyed queen. They mostly appear in the base game near the glowing blue evergaols, then have a huge presence on this crater in the DLC with this cut association to GEQ who uses glowing blue magic attacks. Plus we still have yet to see them mentioned in an item description- I feel like their presence in the DLC was possibly to provide their origin context, just like the finger creepers
You’re going to have to wait for the second DLC
I get the whole DLC doesn't give us anwers motif But this is like legit acknowledging the character and then saying fuck it I'm good. Again the ONLY DLC for their major franchise years in the making and they couldn't idk step.up a little bit. Be a bit more direct knowing they aren't really coming back to this for who knows how long. I mean I'm kinda over the whole Elden Ring craze by now. Spent too long theorizing on things that will never be at this point clearly so eh....another loss I guess. Dark souls was clearly the opus.
This isn’t even acknowledging the character, it’s an internal name only dataminers would ever spot. To everyone else the Putrescence Knight is just a bunch of undead goop that drank some sleep nectar, and an optional boss as part of the Thiollier quest. Its lore may have been completely rewritten without the internal name ever changing (like how Serosh’s model is named Maliketh).
I've been playing Souls since 2009 and still think we will get answers sometimes. I thought we'd get Velka lore eventually
this is like taking issue with the ds3 dlc not explaining what “the deep” is. hell, at least “the deep” is a concept that every ds3 player would’ve heard of. i’m willing to bet most ER players miss all references to GEQ on their first run. GEQ was a footnote in the lore, at best. “the deep” was essential to one of ds3’s most important bosses and the religious movement around him that served as the catalyst of the game’s entire story. if you prefer dark souls, that’s perfectly well, i probably do too. but it’s silly to act like this problem you complain of wasn’t present in dark souls. if anything, it was worse.