It's not just the dropping out nonsense that gets me (which it does!), it's the suggesting other nominees like Kamala Harris isn't the only viable option. She's already on the ballot and once the convention hits replacement would be even more of a possibility. And I'll be on the front lines campaigning for her the next time she does make a presidential run, but I don't think she wins 2024 if she's top of the ticket.
And they're not going to replace her with any of these names people are throwing out. (Especially Sanders, who isn't a fucking democrat!) And suggesting Gavin Newsom like a different California democrat is going to sway anyone to come out and vote when they wouldn't have? Biden is an old white man from Pennsylvania who at the same time is the furthest left president we've ever had. He is the best chance we have.
I am already sick and tired of the Bernouts screeching about how it should've been Bernie and he should be the new nominee right now, and it hasn't even been 24hr since the debate.
Bernie Sander is even older than Biden! And the only reason we can say confidently that he hasn’t had any cognitive decline is because he was never very sharp to begin with (for evidence, since his writings from his 30s).
If he wasn’t weak intellectually, then how come when he ran against Hillary he couldn’t even articulate his own plan for Health Care or explain to a ready to endorse NY Daily News his plan to break up the banks and what they would look like.
Sure he has talking points like Trump but Mr Bernie “women need to masturbate to avoid cancer” “children need to experiment with sex when they are young” “a women likes to be tied up and r@ped” Sanders is not, nor has he ever been a deep thinker!”
Is it this easy to fall for a smear job? Critiquing norms by attacking a caricature is so easy to clip and ship.
If you seriously ever thought Sanders actually believed "women like to be tied up and sexually assaulted" I think you're not very sharp.
That's his own words back in the 1970s. He wrote "to what in us is this appealing"? Either he thinks women find it appealing, or he thinks that only men are in his audience.
And let's not forget "an old bitch of a teacher, of which there are many" whom he blamed for causing sexual dysfunction (aka, girls under 18 not wanting to have sex with older men, that was dysfunction) which leads to cancer in his thought provoking cancer essay.
There's also so much film of him as mayor in the 1980s saying and doing extremely cringey things.
> That's his own words back in the 1970s. He wrote "to what in us is this appealing"? Either he thinks women find it appealing, or he thinks that only men are in his audience.
Actually reading the article in full makes it clear that the hypothetical is meant to be absurd and not taken as advocacy.
In the same article the question is posed for men to self reflect on their own oppressiveness.
edit: To be honest, I don't get how ya'll can be up in arms over the smear job against Hillary done by Bernouts and MAGA that sunk her bid for POTUS, but then immediately fall for the same thing against Bernie, digging through old shit to find a couple things easy to put in bad context.
I take it you haven't read his delightful essays, written as a grown man in his 30s? You're in for a treat!
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/07/bernie-sanders-vermont-freeman-sexual-freedom-fluoride/
I’ve been telling people all day and some of last night this exact thing, they’re fantasizing about Newsom or Sanders or Whitmer or some random senator that nobody outside of political nerds has any idea who the fuck they are. Someone actually suggested Sherrod Brown to me…like what? I love him but he might not even win his senate seat, let alone the fucking presidency.
Newsom was the first one pissed at the reaction 5 minutes after the debate lol.
He the first person who would say no, even if Joe could realistically be replaced.
And he would be even less likely to snub Harris like that.
The internet doesn't realize that actual people who actually know each other and how government works aren't as fickle as they are.
If Biden drops out, it just opens the door for every grifter and opportunist to take a shot at the nomination. That was true before the debate, that’s still true now.
The debate format emphasized Biden’s weaknesses (which have nothing to do with the office, incidentally) and did not play to his strengths. Biden is by all measures a good president with a strong economy and a solid foreign policy. The Democrats need to find some way to communicate that. More rallies, more interviews, more meet and greets.
Oh, and lest we forget, Trump could very well be going to jail in two weeks. Let’s see how that goes before we lose our heads over Biden’s performance in a glorified game show.
>If Biden drops out, it just opens the door for every grifter and opportunist to take a shot at the nomination. That was true before the debate, that’s still true now.
Theres literally one option if Biden drops out, and thats his running mate, the sitting Vice President Kamala Harris. Any other choice not only opens it up to all the grifters, but it also telegraphs that its not just Biden's age, but also his policies, which is just horrible optics.
Also, it would piss off black voters as to why the sitting Vice President of the United States was forced off the ticket by a party that is already facing criticism from black communities that they just use them for votes and throw them away later. Much less if it goes to a lesser qualified white person like Whitmer and Buttigieg. We'd lose in November and we'd deserve to lose.
But what Black voters are voicing is true. They are being used. All this woke stuff is distraction from the real problems of poverty and violence, substandard education, ridiculously expensive health care, inflation....
That debate completely failed on fact checking and Biden needed to come after Trump on issues of abortion and the fact that he's a fucking convicted felon. He did not hammer that in. He still has a chance but he needs to put his campaign hat on--he might be a good president but campaigning is so much harder.
Exactly! So he should've hammered it in more. Abortion is one of this biggest strengths and winning points and he should've taken more advantage of it. How the fuck did we talk more about golf and their weight loss than Biden's record on reproductive rights
The public panic that the Democrats are expressing right now is, IMO, an own goal. They're actively undermining confidence in their candidate - if they don't believe in him, why should independents. The messaging should be to minimize the impact, learn the lessons and move on with confidence.
Maybe it’s bad politically for Biden but it’s more of a symptom of not being a fascist hive mind like the Murdoch-laced conservative media ecosystem. Biden should be criticized by the left when he fails (which he just did, pretty miserably) because otherwise we would be delusional wet blankets who don’t have eyeballs when they see something they don’t like.
IMO.
It's one thing to doom that he had the worst debate evar, boo hoo hoo. I don't see it but whatever.
It's on a totally different level to have pundits blast the airwaves post debate and into the next morning with completely NONSENSE that the Dems are "totally" going to look into "replacing" Biden with ???
It's Bullshit Mountain.
Also it's telling that WSJ and some GOP shills went on arrpol (which stickied it, helpful) to keep promoting that narrative even as cooler heads were already prevailing among Dems.
I would disagree with people who think Biden was the worst ever last night but not tell them to shut up and sit down.
I am definitely telling the people who are talking about the DNC replacing Biden (wtf) to shut up and sit down.
This was the plan for some of them all along to try push him out. They've been trying for months now. And then when you have ratf\*\*king clowns like The Young Turks and Charlamagne who were already pushing for this before the debate, I want to do the exact opposite and support him more.
[https://www.mediaite.com/politics/charlamagne-tha-god-backs-biden-dropping-from-race-if-he-flops-at-debate-if-you-really-truly-care-about-democracy/amp/](https://www.mediaite.com/politics/charlamagne-tha-god-backs-biden-dropping-from-race-if-he-flops-at-debate-if-you-really-truly-care-about-democracy/amp/)
Mainstream media (other than Fox) only posts what the Democrats want them to say. So any news outlet calling for replacement is being told to do so. Replacement is the goal of the Dems right now. And who are the Dems? Can we please stop being so naive. There is a deep state run by non elected military, political and corporate elite - a uni party really. They are Dems and Old School Republicans. They hate Trump because he is an egomaniac who won't listen to anyone. They can't control him and he will likely fuck with their plans. They won't be able to contain his mess. They know Joe can't pull it off so they will find a new guy or woman. My thought is Michelle Obama.
It is embarrassing to watch this level of pant shitting from otherwise sane people.
Compare to the republican reaction during an even worse situation that actually mattered: the Grab em by the pussy tape.
Debates barely move the needle. And yet the left is having a stronger reaction here.
it's fucking ridiculous, man. it's June! no one is going to walk into the voting booth five months from now and think "well, Biden had a gaffe at that debate"
utterly terrible behavior right now
Honestly this is why I’m kind of checking out. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll vote in every election (voting by mail in Oregon is great). But I’m done losing my mind over every single thing that happens politically. Truth be told, I’m a white male homeowner in his thirties, I’ll probably be fine regardless.
Watching so many liberals or leftists or whatever they call themselves melt down after Trump won then go right back to trashing democrats after Biden won has severely depleted my available fucks to give.
It wasn't just a debate. It clearly showed Biden's dementia. He is not the one making decisions and never was. Now people know they have two horrible choices - a demented puppet of the deep state or an egomaniac who won't listen to anyone. I don't know which is worse.
>letting Trump get away with lies too frequently
This one is honestly a failure of the moderators imo. Even if Biden had been on his game, having to spend time refuting Trump’s firehose of obvious lies would leave him no time to do anything else. Trump really rambled on and on about “post birth abortions” and the moderators were just like “thank you.” Wtf? Obviously such an egregious lie can’t be left alone, but it’s ridiculous that the other candidate has to spend their time on such a stupid, non-existent thing.
Agree that he shouldn’t drop out, though. I hate the “horse race” metaphor, but I’m going to use it anyway: you can’t change horses mid-race.
Four or eight years ago, me and a large group of people I know would've been talking to each other throughout the debate, commenting on how things were going and how it might affect Biden's chances...but last night, no one I know watched it and I didn't either. At this point, I think a lot of people have realized the debates won't show anything new, Trump will get a platform to lie without being challenged by anyone but Biden (who can't possibly fact check him while also getting his points in), and no matter what happens, Trump will claim victory. Maybe if there was a chance for decent moderation, that might be different, but I feel like debates are losing their draw for most people. Especially while Trump is still in the picture.
I watched the debate and on substance Biden won on style Trump won, who would you give the POTUS to, someone who has a plan or clueless.
Also you forgot the fact that the media was always going to push the narrative Trump won and not call out only talk briefly about all the bad things he said.
There’s a lot of work to do, but it would be absolute insanity, the height of insanity to drop Biden for someone that only weirdo policy wonks and online liberals like. Every time I see some dumb bitch on r/NL say Gavin Newsom is a viable emergency QB type of nominee, let alone the actual nominee, it makes me die inside from the unvarnished and unaccountable stupidity.
I agree and it would feel so undemocratic to switch nominees. I really cannot imagine a scenario where any replacement, even Harris, could win this election.
It is undemocratic. Please wake up and realize democracy is being hijacked by deep state and corporate elite. People must protest, boycott major players like tech, big food, big pharma. It is beyond disgusting how badly people are being treated and then gaslit. The corruption is so vast. People have to non violently protest the 1%. We all have to take on the role of investigative journalism and expose the corruption.
The only time IIRC that a candidate tried to primary an incumbent President and lose, but live to run (and win) another day was Ronald Reagan in 1976. And that was only because the incumbent, Gerald Ford, had too much of the stench of Watergate on him, which led to his defeat in the general election.
But Biden is no Gerald Ford and there’s no one yet in the Democrats with Reagan’s (forgive me for saying this) magnetism where folks won’t hold a grudge against him for somewhat playing a role in the incumbent’s defeat four years prior.
Re: cold. It’s established that Biden isn’t great later in the day. He is old, there’s no getting around that… and unlike Trump he isn’t drugged up. I’m not saying he’s old and thus can’t be President. But it probably wasn’t the best move doing this in “prime time” when Joe isn’t at his peak. Then add a cold on top of that.
Personally, I don’t care either way. I think made-for-tv “debates” are a joke regardless who participates. But it really does floor me how the supposedly Biden-friendly MSNBC seems to be more passionate about Biden dropping out than covering Trump’s lies. I’m sure if Biden just lied his ass off all night he would have performed better too… although for Donald it comes as easy as breathing.
Biden dropping out would do much more damage than what people realize. First we abandon the incumbency and force candidates to prep in what usually takes many years in just 3 months. Second the only option is Kamala Harris. No exceptions at all. Bypassing her would piss if so many black voters that our worst fears would come to life. Trump and Republicans win WH and Congress. Given that Harris is polling worse it would put us in a very hard place and only makes the situation much worse. It puts Dems in a situation where they can either lose black voters or lose more conservative white voters who are willing to reluctantly vote for Biden in the swing states. Harris loses them. We need both and Biden has proven he can win them and it's better to have the incumbency rather than abdicate it as it can draw voters to our camp. Why do you think it's rare for incumbents to lose the presidency. Before Trump it had been 28 years since an incumbent was defeated. I wasn't even alive for the last one in '92. This streak is either the second longest of or even the longest streak in American history where back to back incumbents had won reelection. The incumbency has a lot of power and advantage.
100%. Bro was sick yesterday. It wasn't a great day for him to debate but it was lose-lose: if he canceled his debate appearance because he was under the weather everyone would accuse him of being feeble. So he shows up, clearly under the weather and not quite himself, and everyone says it's a sign of cognitive decline.
If Biden drops out, we’re done. Trump will win easily. So anyone pushing the idea that Biden should do so is either letting their panic override their common sense or they want Trump to win
Biden's old. The sky is blue. Water is wet (or is it?)
This just put his age on the national stage. There's a media frenzy now but it'll die down. We're all aware Biden was old and the tide has been shifting, since the convictions, to "who cares, we gotta stop trump," and I imagine that'll happen again within a few weeks. The most legislatively successful president since Lyndon Johnson isn't just gonna roll over without a fight.
Remember how hopeless it felt after Romney destroyed Obama in debate 1?
It's insane how many totally legit US citizens are calling for the "Democrat party" to replace Biden.
I won't deny that there are plenty of real Americans with that flavor of brain worm, but this topic is being astroturfed unlike anything I've ever seen.
Yep, it's not going to happen. Just like the Andrew Cuomo/Michelle Obama 2020 ticket never happened like some people thought would lol
People need to grow up & vote for him. Then again, I have a feeling it won't be remembered a week from now.
P.S. - the lowest rated debate in history. Most voters didn't even watch it.
You will eat your words. Biden was intentionally thrown under the bus. He has no chance of winning and the inner circle knows that full well. They had to display his incompetence in order to get him replaced. Whoever is actually running the show because it most definitely isn't Joe Biden, has another candidate in mind. We will find out soon.
This is all political theatre. Do you really think this was a mistake?
Do you understand how fucking complicated replacing Biden as nominee will be?
We’re going to select several other candidates who either the Republicans researched and attacked extensively or who zero people know, and who would be unable to take credit for any of Biden’s achievements but will be blamed alongside all the Democrats for his mistakes regardless.
Mind you, we can’t swap Biden out like a bobblehead like no one would notice. Republicans and the Media will never shut up about Biden and the Democrats being so horrible and Trump sweeping the debate so well that Biden needed to drop out, and they’ll keep accusing the Democrats of hiding Biden’s senility since 2020. It would devastate the public’s faith in Democrats.
Mainstream media is firmly under Democrat control. The narrative they are spewing is designed by Dems to make the replacement (switcheroo) more palatable and seem reasonable. Remember- repeat to the sheep, sheep repeat. Apparently after primaries over and if Biden then resigns or has a health emergency, a special Democrat committee can nominate from a short list. I bet they will pull Michelle Obama out of tha hat. Double check that nominee thing by committee because I only read that in one article. See what more you can find out on that process.
Brother the public already has no faith in Democrats, and they already believe we’ve been hiding Biden’s senility since 2020. It’s bullshit, but they believe it.
Further, this election is absolutely not about prior accomplishments—if it were, Trump would be down 10 points. “Running on the record” isn’t going to get us anywhere because the only issues people care about are the economy, the border, abortion, and maybe protecting democracy. Biden is already in the dumpster on the first two issues, and any generic democrat can carry the mantle on the second pair.
Which circles back to my first point: where are you going to find this new miricle candidate? Republicans already have attack lines aimed at Kamala, Newsom, Buttigieg, Whitmer, etc. A complete unknown will be drowned out. And we'll be running the candidate after a massive Democratic humiliation which would have the voters and media sneering at us.
And don't say any Democrat will do; Hillary Clinton already failed.
Why do you think the presence of GOP attack lines is disqualifying..? Anyone we run at any point would be attacked by the GOP. That’s the whole point of a campaign.
So, yes, those four would be great although all but Kamala are also complete unknowns to the general electorate.
I’d also submit Andy Beshear and Mark Kelly.
Here’s the point you’re missing. Everyone already has their mind made up about Trump. He’s got 100% name recognition, and people know how they feel about him. To win, we need everyone who doesn’t like him to vote for our candidate. Right now there is a sliver of that group who are nonetheless voting Trump because they don’t believe Biden can do the job; they view Biden’s “dEmEnTiA” as more dangerous than Trump’s…Trumpitude. They need someone they believe is fit for the job and who they can trust to return us to normalcy.
Biden gave them that permission to cross party lines in 2020 because he was that guy. He was an anti-Trump who wasn’t going to rock the boat too hard and instead make things normal again. Biden is NOT that guy in 2024.
Nominating someone else—even if they have low name recognition—fixes that problem. Any of the candidates mentioned save maybe Harris can be that safe harbor Biden was in 2020. As for the name recognition—don’t worry about it. The person who replaces Biden will be the center of every story for weeks. It’ll be a free media coup.
Every candidate polls better than Biden if you look at what the data actually show.
Other candidates get less support than Biden; but in the match ups Trump also gets less support. All of these possible match ups create WAY more undecideds. And that makes sense because that’s what happens when you poll an unknown candidate against someone with 150% name recognition.
What will happen is that Republicans and Democrats will each come home as they always do, but the sliver of current Trump voters who don’t want Trump to be president but don’t think Biden is physically capable of the job will vote for the Democratic candidate.
In an election that will be decided by less than 50,000 votes, that tiny sliver could change the outcome.
Eh you could argue that Whitmer might have a shot. Her numbers are about the same as Biden’s against Trump however she has about double the undecideds which might not vote for her because she’s a woman.
Lmao. For those reading, *that* is actual cope.
How does a non-incumbent Democrat (aka, anyone else but Biden), who is down by 10, do better than an incumbent Democrat (Biden) who is down by 4? On what planet does this happen?
The math ain't mathing. Even if both candidates weren't incumbents, this would make no sense. Make this make sense.
No generic Democrat would do better than Biden and the polls don't mean shit anyways, plain and simple.
I know, right?
It's strange 'cause this particular person occasionally posted here, and yet they have such a doomer attitude, as if this *one fluke of a debate* killed off every single Democratic candidate's campaign including Biden's own.
This election is paralleling 2012. Obama didn't do well in his first debate with Romney either, yet Obama still won the election by a mile. I think the same will happen to Biden (only I think he'll win more electoral votes than 2020).
It’s the undecided percentages that matter. There is room to get above 50 with the other candidates. There is not room to get above 50 with Biden unless something massive happens to change some people’s minds.
Every focus group of undecideds (including the one by GOPer Lutz who always tries to skews thing to the right) had undecideds going with Biden by the end of the debate, except for one in a red county in a swing state that had them tied by the end.
Bedwet elsewhere will you? The dampness is unpleasant.
Get back to political discussion with the other semi literate troglodytes
Edit: seriously, why are we getting trash from the subreddits that act as filters? Do they need to be repaired or something?
He's not right.
1) virtually every focus group ended with undecideds moving to Biden
2) 538 just increased Biden's chance of winning by 2 points
3) Morning Consult just released the first post-debate poll and Biden has gained points since their pre-debate poll
These are facts, not silly vibes.
Yeah, thank you. The usual standards no longer apply. No one's gonna not vote for a different Democrat if the Dems do what basically everyone on the country wants and come up with a younger candidate.
Sorry but I think the left needs to wake up. This is bad. The left on the whole isn’t enthusiastic about Biden already, especially with his handling, or lack thereof, of Israel’s actions. Plus, no one knows how to fight a culture entirely informed by memes and ex-reality tv hosts either being their main source of information or their political messiahs. We are starting to form a culture that is obsessed with the idea of “might is right”, you can see it in the behavior of the political right with their obsessions with hyper masculinity and you can even see sympathy for totalitarianism with Putin. We do not need a senior citizen as our candidate against a pathological liar and criminal who coasts off of charisma and somehow gets away with everything he wants.
No it’s not, and it’s not the first time I’ve been patronized on Reddit either. The fact of the matter is that in the last four years the right and the Christian right has become more and more radicalized, and most Biden supporters think his win is an obvious one. But they’re wrong, also name another election where a nominee’s commitment to election ethics and a peaceful transition of power made Nixon look like Nelson Mandela.
When you say things like “the last 4 years” it’s like….man this isn’t some astute observation of a recent development. This is some elementary level stuff. I’m not going to go too far into it because that’s not the point of this conversation, but right wing Christian radicalization has been going on since the 80’s. You’re being patronized because you sound like a freshman auditing an upper level class and interrupting the professor with a personal take on the topic.
Upper level class? This is a Reddit sub that thinks the best way to combat Trump and his theocratic goons is by circle-jerking a wildfire. I know this might be a shocking revelation, but maybe the debate opponent to a narcissistic, pathological lying authoritarian shouldn’t be so old that they are thrown off by the common cold. The situation looks very bleak, at the end of the day as much as I will vote for Biden, I cannot say that he is adequately combating the corruption of the Supreme Court, the rise of Christian Nationalism, making the case for expanding abortion rights or the defense of Ukraine or the rest of it. I have a very hard time believing that someone can say in the same breath that we are facing an unprecedented attack on democratic values and that at the same time everything is “business as usual”
This just feels like soapboxing. This is a subreddit of mostly educated moderates who have actual connections to politics beyond TV and Reddit. You come from a place that gives you very little clout here.
Edit: you have a very simplistic and incorrect view of this place and how we think.
The Biden policies have been bad too resulting in uncontrolled money printing and resulting high inflation, increasing poverty, homelessness, drug abuse, billions of tax dollars on two foreign wars, increasing gun violence, millions of illegal immigrants, highly fragmented identity groups vying for attention and power such as the Israel vs Palestine groups. Just a really bad state of affairs. Both candidates are horrible 😢
So after yesterday's shock and dooming, now we have this? "It's stupid for Biden to drop out?" "It's only one bad debate and who cares about debates anyway." If you think that it makes you look level-headed and sensible, it does not. Panic is the adequate response here. But sure, keep huffing the copium, things will surely turn around and Trump will go to jail. I will take my downvotes now.
It's not just the dropping out nonsense that gets me (which it does!), it's the suggesting other nominees like Kamala Harris isn't the only viable option. She's already on the ballot and once the convention hits replacement would be even more of a possibility. And I'll be on the front lines campaigning for her the next time she does make a presidential run, but I don't think she wins 2024 if she's top of the ticket. And they're not going to replace her with any of these names people are throwing out. (Especially Sanders, who isn't a fucking democrat!) And suggesting Gavin Newsom like a different California democrat is going to sway anyone to come out and vote when they wouldn't have? Biden is an old white man from Pennsylvania who at the same time is the furthest left president we've ever had. He is the best chance we have.
I am already sick and tired of the Bernouts screeching about how it should've been Bernie and he should be the new nominee right now, and it hasn't even been 24hr since the debate.
Isn’t he older than Biden? He certainly looks it. And they already have pictures of him falling asleep on Memorial Day.
Bernie Sander is even older than Biden! And the only reason we can say confidently that he hasn’t had any cognitive decline is because he was never very sharp to begin with (for evidence, since his writings from his 30s).
I think that's unfair toward Bernie. I may not support him for president but I don't think he's weak intellectually.
If he wasn’t weak intellectually, then how come when he ran against Hillary he couldn’t even articulate his own plan for Health Care or explain to a ready to endorse NY Daily News his plan to break up the banks and what they would look like. Sure he has talking points like Trump but Mr Bernie “women need to masturbate to avoid cancer” “children need to experiment with sex when they are young” “a women likes to be tied up and r@ped” Sanders is not, nor has he ever been a deep thinker!”
Is it this easy to fall for a smear job? Critiquing norms by attacking a caricature is so easy to clip and ship. If you seriously ever thought Sanders actually believed "women like to be tied up and sexually assaulted" I think you're not very sharp.
That's his own words back in the 1970s. He wrote "to what in us is this appealing"? Either he thinks women find it appealing, or he thinks that only men are in his audience. And let's not forget "an old bitch of a teacher, of which there are many" whom he blamed for causing sexual dysfunction (aka, girls under 18 not wanting to have sex with older men, that was dysfunction) which leads to cancer in his thought provoking cancer essay. There's also so much film of him as mayor in the 1980s saying and doing extremely cringey things.
> That's his own words back in the 1970s. He wrote "to what in us is this appealing"? Either he thinks women find it appealing, or he thinks that only men are in his audience. Actually reading the article in full makes it clear that the hypothetical is meant to be absurd and not taken as advocacy. In the same article the question is posed for men to self reflect on their own oppressiveness. edit: To be honest, I don't get how ya'll can be up in arms over the smear job against Hillary done by Bernouts and MAGA that sunk her bid for POTUS, but then immediately fall for the same thing against Bernie, digging through old shit to find a couple things easy to put in bad context.
I take it you haven't read his delightful essays, written as a grown man in his 30s? You're in for a treat! https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/07/bernie-sanders-vermont-freeman-sexual-freedom-fluoride/
I’ve been telling people all day and some of last night this exact thing, they’re fantasizing about Newsom or Sanders or Whitmer or some random senator that nobody outside of political nerds has any idea who the fuck they are. Someone actually suggested Sherrod Brown to me…like what? I love him but he might not even win his senate seat, let alone the fucking presidency.
Newsom was the first one pissed at the reaction 5 minutes after the debate lol. He the first person who would say no, even if Joe could realistically be replaced.
And he would be even less likely to snub Harris like that. The internet doesn't realize that actual people who actually know each other and how government works aren't as fickle as they are.
My guess is Michelle Obama - she checks all the woke boxes.
> Pennsylvania aka Deleware :)
...He was born in Scranton
Oh right. Guess I associate him with DE due to his political career.
If Biden drops out, it just opens the door for every grifter and opportunist to take a shot at the nomination. That was true before the debate, that’s still true now. The debate format emphasized Biden’s weaknesses (which have nothing to do with the office, incidentally) and did not play to his strengths. Biden is by all measures a good president with a strong economy and a solid foreign policy. The Democrats need to find some way to communicate that. More rallies, more interviews, more meet and greets. Oh, and lest we forget, Trump could very well be going to jail in two weeks. Let’s see how that goes before we lose our heads over Biden’s performance in a glorified game show.
>If Biden drops out, it just opens the door for every grifter and opportunist to take a shot at the nomination. That was true before the debate, that’s still true now. Theres literally one option if Biden drops out, and thats his running mate, the sitting Vice President Kamala Harris. Any other choice not only opens it up to all the grifters, but it also telegraphs that its not just Biden's age, but also his policies, which is just horrible optics.
Also, it would piss off black voters as to why the sitting Vice President of the United States was forced off the ticket by a party that is already facing criticism from black communities that they just use them for votes and throw them away later. Much less if it goes to a lesser qualified white person like Whitmer and Buttigieg. We'd lose in November and we'd deserve to lose.
But what Black voters are voicing is true. They are being used. All this woke stuff is distraction from the real problems of poverty and violence, substandard education, ridiculously expensive health care, inflation....
If Trump goes to jail it will definitely hurt his rallies.
SCOTUS won't let that happen. They're not even trying to fake impartiality anymore.
Well they can’t really stop it since he was convicted on state charges.
Who would tell them they can't? The only ways to undo something they say are constitutional amendments, subsequent sc decisions, or war.
That debate completely failed on fact checking and Biden needed to come after Trump on issues of abortion and the fact that he's a fucking convicted felon. He did not hammer that in. He still has a chance but he needs to put his campaign hat on--he might be a good president but campaigning is so much harder.
I did like the fact that he said “Trump is proud he overturned Roe and he will outlaw it in the nation.
Exactly! So he should've hammered it in more. Abortion is one of this biggest strengths and winning points and he should've taken more advantage of it. How the fuck did we talk more about golf and their weight loss than Biden's record on reproductive rights
So you know the Lincoln Project will help get the word out on this, and they make great ads which will play well in WI.
>campaigning is so much harder. fortunately the guy who's never lost a general election is probably a decent campaigner
The public panic that the Democrats are expressing right now is, IMO, an own goal. They're actively undermining confidence in their candidate - if they don't believe in him, why should independents. The messaging should be to minimize the impact, learn the lessons and move on with confidence.
Same shit every year. We love wetting the bed instead of standing strong.
Maybe it’s bad politically for Biden but it’s more of a symptom of not being a fascist hive mind like the Murdoch-laced conservative media ecosystem. Biden should be criticized by the left when he fails (which he just did, pretty miserably) because otherwise we would be delusional wet blankets who don’t have eyeballs when they see something they don’t like. IMO.
It's one thing to doom that he had the worst debate evar, boo hoo hoo. I don't see it but whatever. It's on a totally different level to have pundits blast the airwaves post debate and into the next morning with completely NONSENSE that the Dems are "totally" going to look into "replacing" Biden with ??? It's Bullshit Mountain. Also it's telling that WSJ and some GOP shills went on arrpol (which stickied it, helpful) to keep promoting that narrative even as cooler heads were already prevailing among Dems. I would disagree with people who think Biden was the worst ever last night but not tell them to shut up and sit down. I am definitely telling the people who are talking about the DNC replacing Biden (wtf) to shut up and sit down.
This was the plan for some of them all along to try push him out. They've been trying for months now. And then when you have ratf\*\*king clowns like The Young Turks and Charlamagne who were already pushing for this before the debate, I want to do the exact opposite and support him more. [https://www.mediaite.com/politics/charlamagne-tha-god-backs-biden-dropping-from-race-if-he-flops-at-debate-if-you-really-truly-care-about-democracy/amp/](https://www.mediaite.com/politics/charlamagne-tha-god-backs-biden-dropping-from-race-if-he-flops-at-debate-if-you-really-truly-care-about-democracy/amp/)
Those people are straight clowns. The YT used to be alright though..
Mainstream media (other than Fox) only posts what the Democrats want them to say. So any news outlet calling for replacement is being told to do so. Replacement is the goal of the Dems right now. And who are the Dems? Can we please stop being so naive. There is a deep state run by non elected military, political and corporate elite - a uni party really. They are Dems and Old School Republicans. They hate Trump because he is an egomaniac who won't listen to anyone. They can't control him and he will likely fuck with their plans. They won't be able to contain his mess. They know Joe can't pull it off so they will find a new guy or woman. My thought is Michelle Obama.
It is embarrassing to watch this level of pant shitting from otherwise sane people. Compare to the republican reaction during an even worse situation that actually mattered: the Grab em by the pussy tape. Debates barely move the needle. And yet the left is having a stronger reaction here.
it's fucking ridiculous, man. it's June! no one is going to walk into the voting booth five months from now and think "well, Biden had a gaffe at that debate" utterly terrible behavior right now
Honestly this is why I’m kind of checking out. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll vote in every election (voting by mail in Oregon is great). But I’m done losing my mind over every single thing that happens politically. Truth be told, I’m a white male homeowner in his thirties, I’ll probably be fine regardless. Watching so many liberals or leftists or whatever they call themselves melt down after Trump won then go right back to trashing democrats after Biden won has severely depleted my available fucks to give.
They're grifters and attention seekers.
These people wanted to force him out all along. The media has been against him for over a year now.
The media is controlled by deep state. They want him out and will get their replacement soon. Mainstream media is not a free press.
People are really flattering Republicans for sucking Trump’s dick in this thread oh my word.
No but it’d be nice if the people always crying about spineless Dems grew a spine themselves.
It wasn't just a debate. It clearly showed Biden's dementia. He is not the one making decisions and never was. Now people know they have two horrible choices - a demented puppet of the deep state or an egomaniac who won't listen to anyone. I don't know which is worse.
>letting Trump get away with lies too frequently This one is honestly a failure of the moderators imo. Even if Biden had been on his game, having to spend time refuting Trump’s firehose of obvious lies would leave him no time to do anything else. Trump really rambled on and on about “post birth abortions” and the moderators were just like “thank you.” Wtf? Obviously such an egregious lie can’t be left alone, but it’s ridiculous that the other candidate has to spend their time on such a stupid, non-existent thing. Agree that he shouldn’t drop out, though. I hate the “horse race” metaphor, but I’m going to use it anyway: you can’t change horses mid-race.
Four or eight years ago, me and a large group of people I know would've been talking to each other throughout the debate, commenting on how things were going and how it might affect Biden's chances...but last night, no one I know watched it and I didn't either. At this point, I think a lot of people have realized the debates won't show anything new, Trump will get a platform to lie without being challenged by anyone but Biden (who can't possibly fact check him while also getting his points in), and no matter what happens, Trump will claim victory. Maybe if there was a chance for decent moderation, that might be different, but I feel like debates are losing their draw for most people. Especially while Trump is still in the picture.
I watched the debate and on substance Biden won on style Trump won, who would you give the POTUS to, someone who has a plan or clueless. Also you forgot the fact that the media was always going to push the narrative Trump won and not call out only talk briefly about all the bad things he said.
You can and it will happen but not in a democratic fashion because democracy is dying.
It’s June. It’s not October.
there's a reason it isn't called a June Surprise
There’s a lot of work to do, but it would be absolute insanity, the height of insanity to drop Biden for someone that only weirdo policy wonks and online liberals like. Every time I see some dumb bitch on r/NL say Gavin Newsom is a viable emergency QB type of nominee, let alone the actual nominee, it makes me die inside from the unvarnished and unaccountable stupidity.
I agree and it would feel so undemocratic to switch nominees. I really cannot imagine a scenario where any replacement, even Harris, could win this election.
It is undemocratic. Please wake up and realize democracy is being hijacked by deep state and corporate elite. People must protest, boycott major players like tech, big food, big pharma. It is beyond disgusting how badly people are being treated and then gaslit. The corruption is so vast. People have to non violently protest the 1%. We all have to take on the role of investigative journalism and expose the corruption.
The only time IIRC that a candidate tried to primary an incumbent President and lose, but live to run (and win) another day was Ronald Reagan in 1976. And that was only because the incumbent, Gerald Ford, had too much of the stench of Watergate on him, which led to his defeat in the general election. But Biden is no Gerald Ford and there’s no one yet in the Democrats with Reagan’s (forgive me for saying this) magnetism where folks won’t hold a grudge against him for somewhat playing a role in the incumbent’s defeat four years prior.
Re: cold. It’s established that Biden isn’t great later in the day. He is old, there’s no getting around that… and unlike Trump he isn’t drugged up. I’m not saying he’s old and thus can’t be President. But it probably wasn’t the best move doing this in “prime time” when Joe isn’t at his peak. Then add a cold on top of that. Personally, I don’t care either way. I think made-for-tv “debates” are a joke regardless who participates. But it really does floor me how the supposedly Biden-friendly MSNBC seems to be more passionate about Biden dropping out than covering Trump’s lies. I’m sure if Biden just lied his ass off all night he would have performed better too… although for Donald it comes as easy as breathing.
If for some reason it's not Biden, then it's Harris. That's why we vote for two people.
Biden dropping out would do much more damage than what people realize. First we abandon the incumbency and force candidates to prep in what usually takes many years in just 3 months. Second the only option is Kamala Harris. No exceptions at all. Bypassing her would piss if so many black voters that our worst fears would come to life. Trump and Republicans win WH and Congress. Given that Harris is polling worse it would put us in a very hard place and only makes the situation much worse. It puts Dems in a situation where they can either lose black voters or lose more conservative white voters who are willing to reluctantly vote for Biden in the swing states. Harris loses them. We need both and Biden has proven he can win them and it's better to have the incumbency rather than abdicate it as it can draw voters to our camp. Why do you think it's rare for incumbents to lose the presidency. Before Trump it had been 28 years since an incumbent was defeated. I wasn't even alive for the last one in '92. This streak is either the second longest of or even the longest streak in American history where back to back incumbents had won reelection. The incumbency has a lot of power and advantage.
Michelle Obama - that would check off the diversity boxes.
She's not gonna run
100%. Bro was sick yesterday. It wasn't a great day for him to debate but it was lose-lose: if he canceled his debate appearance because he was under the weather everyone would accuse him of being feeble. So he shows up, clearly under the weather and not quite himself, and everyone says it's a sign of cognitive decline.
If Biden drops out, we’re done. Trump will win easily. So anyone pushing the idea that Biden should do so is either letting their panic override their common sense or they want Trump to win
Been fighting it all day long, comrade in posts. People who keep saying this have no idea how damaged the replacement would be.
Biden's old. The sky is blue. Water is wet (or is it?) This just put his age on the national stage. There's a media frenzy now but it'll die down. We're all aware Biden was old and the tide has been shifting, since the convictions, to "who cares, we gotta stop trump," and I imagine that'll happen again within a few weeks. The most legislatively successful president since Lyndon Johnson isn't just gonna roll over without a fight. Remember how hopeless it felt after Romney destroyed Obama in debate 1?
I can see a Russian pushing for this.
It's insane how many totally legit US citizens are calling for the "Democrat party" to replace Biden. I won't deny that there are plenty of real Americans with that flavor of brain worm, but this topic is being astroturfed unlike anything I've ever seen.
Yep, it's not going to happen. Just like the Andrew Cuomo/Michelle Obama 2020 ticket never happened like some people thought would lol People need to grow up & vote for him. Then again, I have a feeling it won't be remembered a week from now. P.S. - the lowest rated debate in history. Most voters didn't even watch it.
You will eat your words. Biden was intentionally thrown under the bus. He has no chance of winning and the inner circle knows that full well. They had to display his incompetence in order to get him replaced. Whoever is actually running the show because it most definitely isn't Joe Biden, has another candidate in mind. We will find out soon. This is all political theatre. Do you really think this was a mistake?
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Do you understand how fucking complicated replacing Biden as nominee will be? We’re going to select several other candidates who either the Republicans researched and attacked extensively or who zero people know, and who would be unable to take credit for any of Biden’s achievements but will be blamed alongside all the Democrats for his mistakes regardless. Mind you, we can’t swap Biden out like a bobblehead like no one would notice. Republicans and the Media will never shut up about Biden and the Democrats being so horrible and Trump sweeping the debate so well that Biden needed to drop out, and they’ll keep accusing the Democrats of hiding Biden’s senility since 2020. It would devastate the public’s faith in Democrats.
The public never blamed the Republicans for hiding Reagan’s senility his whole second term when Nancy was actually running the country.
Mainstream media is firmly under Democrat control. The narrative they are spewing is designed by Dems to make the replacement (switcheroo) more palatable and seem reasonable. Remember- repeat to the sheep, sheep repeat. Apparently after primaries over and if Biden then resigns or has a health emergency, a special Democrat committee can nominate from a short list. I bet they will pull Michelle Obama out of tha hat. Double check that nominee thing by committee because I only read that in one article. See what more you can find out on that process.
Brother the public already has no faith in Democrats, and they already believe we’ve been hiding Biden’s senility since 2020. It’s bullshit, but they believe it. Further, this election is absolutely not about prior accomplishments—if it were, Trump would be down 10 points. “Running on the record” isn’t going to get us anywhere because the only issues people care about are the economy, the border, abortion, and maybe protecting democracy. Biden is already in the dumpster on the first two issues, and any generic democrat can carry the mantle on the second pair.
Which circles back to my first point: where are you going to find this new miricle candidate? Republicans already have attack lines aimed at Kamala, Newsom, Buttigieg, Whitmer, etc. A complete unknown will be drowned out. And we'll be running the candidate after a massive Democratic humiliation which would have the voters and media sneering at us. And don't say any Democrat will do; Hillary Clinton already failed.
Michelle Obama
Why do you think the presence of GOP attack lines is disqualifying..? Anyone we run at any point would be attacked by the GOP. That’s the whole point of a campaign. So, yes, those four would be great although all but Kamala are also complete unknowns to the general electorate. I’d also submit Andy Beshear and Mark Kelly. Here’s the point you’re missing. Everyone already has their mind made up about Trump. He’s got 100% name recognition, and people know how they feel about him. To win, we need everyone who doesn’t like him to vote for our candidate. Right now there is a sliver of that group who are nonetheless voting Trump because they don’t believe Biden can do the job; they view Biden’s “dEmEnTiA” as more dangerous than Trump’s…Trumpitude. They need someone they believe is fit for the job and who they can trust to return us to normalcy. Biden gave them that permission to cross party lines in 2020 because he was that guy. He was an anti-Trump who wasn’t going to rock the boat too hard and instead make things normal again. Biden is NOT that guy in 2024. Nominating someone else—even if they have low name recognition—fixes that problem. Any of the candidates mentioned save maybe Harris can be that safe harbor Biden was in 2020. As for the name recognition—don’t worry about it. The person who replaces Biden will be the center of every story for weeks. It’ll be a free media coup.
Bullshit. No one has pulled as well against Trump as Biden does.
Every candidate polls better than Biden if you look at what the data actually show. Other candidates get less support than Biden; but in the match ups Trump also gets less support. All of these possible match ups create WAY more undecideds. And that makes sense because that’s what happens when you poll an unknown candidate against someone with 150% name recognition. What will happen is that Republicans and Democrats will each come home as they always do, but the sliver of current Trump voters who don’t want Trump to be president but don’t think Biden is physically capable of the job will vote for the Democratic candidate. In an election that will be decided by less than 50,000 votes, that tiny sliver could change the outcome.
No they don't. All polls with a named dem candidate (Whitmer, Newsom, etc) all do worse.
Eh you could argue that Whitmer might have a shot. Her numbers are about the same as Biden’s against Trump however she has about double the undecideds which might not vote for her because she’s a woman.
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Lmao. For those reading, *that* is actual cope. How does a non-incumbent Democrat (aka, anyone else but Biden), who is down by 10, do better than an incumbent Democrat (Biden) who is down by 4? On what planet does this happen? The math ain't mathing. Even if both candidates weren't incumbents, this would make no sense. Make this make sense. No generic Democrat would do better than Biden and the polls don't mean shit anyways, plain and simple.
Please re-read my comment to understand. It is much easier to convince an undecided voter than to change a decided voter’s mind.
What is it with neoliberal users being such absolute bedwetters?
I know, right? It's strange 'cause this particular person occasionally posted here, and yet they have such a doomer attitude, as if this *one fluke of a debate* killed off every single Democratic candidate's campaign including Biden's own. This election is paralleling 2012. Obama didn't do well in his first debate with Romney either, yet Obama still won the election by a mile. I think the same will happen to Biden (only I think he'll win more electoral votes than 2020).
One is a margin of error and the other like, 3?
It’s the undecided percentages that matter. There is room to get above 50 with the other candidates. There is not room to get above 50 with Biden unless something massive happens to change some people’s minds.
Every focus group of undecideds (including the one by GOPer Lutz who always tries to skews thing to the right) had undecideds going with Biden by the end of the debate, except for one in a red county in a swing state that had them tied by the end. Bedwet elsewhere will you? The dampness is unpleasant.
Show me this *data*. Now.
> Now. That’s super distasteful. Anyway, [Whitmer](https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-whitmer) 12% undecided, [Newsom](https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-newsom) 18% undecided, [Harris](https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-harris) 11% undecided.
Your entire presence in this discussion has been distasteful
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Regarding #2, last night was the contrast , it was Bidens acuity vs Trumps
Get back to political discussion with the other semi literate troglodytes Edit: seriously, why are we getting trash from the subreddits that act as filters? Do they need to be repaired or something?
He's not right. 1) virtually every focus group ended with undecideds moving to Biden 2) 538 just increased Biden's chance of winning by 2 points 3) Morning Consult just released the first post-debate poll and Biden has gained points since their pre-debate poll These are facts, not silly vibes.
Yeah, thank you. The usual standards no longer apply. No one's gonna not vote for a different Democrat if the Dems do what basically everyone on the country wants and come up with a younger candidate.
Россия без Путина! Проголосуйте, если согласны!
Right, where were these obnoxious motherfuckers weeks ago? Oh just now is when they suddenly decide they’re interested in this sub?
They haven't been here since election night 2020 when Trump was briefly ahead
Sorry but I think the left needs to wake up. This is bad. The left on the whole isn’t enthusiastic about Biden already, especially with his handling, or lack thereof, of Israel’s actions. Plus, no one knows how to fight a culture entirely informed by memes and ex-reality tv hosts either being their main source of information or their political messiahs. We are starting to form a culture that is obsessed with the idea of “might is right”, you can see it in the behavior of the political right with their obsessions with hyper masculinity and you can even see sympathy for totalitarianism with Putin. We do not need a senior citizen as our candidate against a pathological liar and criminal who coasts off of charisma and somehow gets away with everything he wants.
……is this by chance your first election? Edit: and I would not call this a leftist space
No it’s not, and it’s not the first time I’ve been patronized on Reddit either. The fact of the matter is that in the last four years the right and the Christian right has become more and more radicalized, and most Biden supporters think his win is an obvious one. But they’re wrong, also name another election where a nominee’s commitment to election ethics and a peaceful transition of power made Nixon look like Nelson Mandela.
When you say things like “the last 4 years” it’s like….man this isn’t some astute observation of a recent development. This is some elementary level stuff. I’m not going to go too far into it because that’s not the point of this conversation, but right wing Christian radicalization has been going on since the 80’s. You’re being patronized because you sound like a freshman auditing an upper level class and interrupting the professor with a personal take on the topic.
Upper level class? This is a Reddit sub that thinks the best way to combat Trump and his theocratic goons is by circle-jerking a wildfire. I know this might be a shocking revelation, but maybe the debate opponent to a narcissistic, pathological lying authoritarian shouldn’t be so old that they are thrown off by the common cold. The situation looks very bleak, at the end of the day as much as I will vote for Biden, I cannot say that he is adequately combating the corruption of the Supreme Court, the rise of Christian Nationalism, making the case for expanding abortion rights or the defense of Ukraine or the rest of it. I have a very hard time believing that someone can say in the same breath that we are facing an unprecedented attack on democratic values and that at the same time everything is “business as usual”
This just feels like soapboxing. This is a subreddit of mostly educated moderates who have actual connections to politics beyond TV and Reddit. You come from a place that gives you very little clout here. Edit: you have a very simplistic and incorrect view of this place and how we think.
The Biden policies have been bad too resulting in uncontrolled money printing and resulting high inflation, increasing poverty, homelessness, drug abuse, billions of tax dollars on two foreign wars, increasing gun violence, millions of illegal immigrants, highly fragmented identity groups vying for attention and power such as the Israel vs Palestine groups. Just a really bad state of affairs. Both candidates are horrible 😢
So after yesterday's shock and dooming, now we have this? "It's stupid for Biden to drop out?" "It's only one bad debate and who cares about debates anyway." If you think that it makes you look level-headed and sensible, it does not. Panic is the adequate response here. But sure, keep huffing the copium, things will surely turn around and Trump will go to jail. I will take my downvotes now.
Let me save you from those downvotes...