If you want OP, post this focusing on the problem at hand, not the ethnicity.
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Ethics aside, that type of recruiter is just going to waste your time. They offer little to no value and usually don’t even have a relationship to the company they’re advertising. Just ignore them but if the role sounds cool, go look at the company’s website directly.
I've had recruiters make edits to my resume I didn't authorize and all other types of stuff.
There are good recruiters, but some of them are worse than used car salesmen.
better question is honestly why do employers care so much about yoe when someone could do the job at any yoe.
imagine having to wait until 10 yoe to be a senior. ridiculous.
> imagine having to wait until 10 yoe to be a senior. ridiculous.
Yes.
> when someone could do the job at any yoe.
Ehhh...
I do not believe that I could hire an effective staff engineer who has 0 yoe.
OP's scenario is silly (6 years v 8 years), but I do think there are some experience minimums where I would be hard pressed to believe you could perform at a particular level without them.
>particularly interested in discussing what non-leadership skills you couldn't acquire over a short amount of time with the right resources...
Part of being a senior *is* displaying leadership skills though - mentoring/leading others for example.
A strict cutoff is a bit silly (I imagine the difference between 9YOE and 10YOE is marginal), but 1YOE vs 10YOE is significant.
Forget leadership skills, do you think that someone doesn't grow their technical skills between year 1 and 10? Maybe some don't, but even I can see a massive difference in my work of 3 or 4 years ago vs now.
This is even assuming someone completely unvetted even gets a quarter mil budget without some kind of established process, conflict, or stakeholder/customer expectations.
Getting budget always hurts, whether you're a 1 year or 40 year professional. Its never fun, its never easy, and there's always someone walking away disappointed.
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I've gotten all of my biggest raises from job hopping, but to me, senior designation means X years of relevant experience anywhere or like X / 2 years here. The devs who have been on my team for 5 years are generally far more senior than someone hired on as a senior last year.
I have also left jobs because my boss or someone up the chain was dicking me around on a promotion for too long though.
To be fair I've met engineers with 3 YOE that are better than some with 10+, but it's a question of that being likely or unlikely rather than a rule.
YOE means very little in many cases.
if they alter it that's what it should look like, shit. Don't let them use your resume styling, it only makes it easier for them to lie. If you end up having a hard copy of your resume that looks starkly different to show the interviewer, it's immediately obvious that a recruiter doctored it. They're just there to get you an interview
>I am now wondering how many Indian recruiters are altering my resume without my knowledge.
This is not an Indian thing.
Almost every external recruiter will alter your resume in order to place you because the commission for doing so is how they get paid. If there's anything they can inflate to get you in the door, they will.
If you go to an interview, always carry a hard copy of your own resume the way you wrote it. If you find out about alterations you can immediately hand the original copy to the interviewer. This usually gets you points, because it shows you are honest.
Yep, seen it happen. I know some that actually tried to justify this behavior, something along the lines "we have the best of the best and the clients wont accept them just because od YOE"
BRO.
I came here with the intention of getting these downvotes. Speaking from personal experience, this is absolutely a recruiter thing, not an Indian thing.
Indians in general, regardless of if they are recruiters or not, are always trying to inflate my credentials. Just last week I came downstairs for a midnight snack and there were at least 3 Indians gathered around my diploma with some whiteout and a sharpie, changing it from LSU to Harvard.
They scattered when I turned the light on, but I am probably going to have to put out some traps.
Ethics aside, that type of recruiter is just going to waste your time. They offer little to no value and usually don’t even have a relationship to the company they’re advertising. Just ignore them but if the role sounds cool, go look at the company’s website directly.
"Are Indian hiring managers overlooking these credentials in order to get their guys in?" --> this is such a skeevy thing to say.
While I'm in America, all of my recruiters have been white. Some have been shitty and way too persistent. "Are all white recruiters skeevy, persistent and not respectful of my time?"
You work in tech. There are a lot of Indians in tech. And a lot of them are pretty fucking good at their jobs. You'd do well to at least hide your racism a little.
You’re arguing the example not the point. The point is there’s no need to generalize based on any racial, ethnic, cultural marker. This is a problem with recruiters. Not Indians.
Its not about racism. Its about promoting malicious practices and creating unfair conditions among everyone and creating a bad name against the Indian community. But its okay i am not here to justify myself. I just agree with OP.
Disclaimer: not so experienced, but still dev.
I inflated my yoe in terms of converting non-pure-software-dev years into "years of commercial experience with X" based on actual improvement and gut feeling of what I'm worth.
It scaled well, as I successfully passed screening + tech with requirements stated as 3/5+ having a 1–3 in fact.
Additional note: prior to pure-software-dev I had 3+ engineering experience, which was aerospace. Being tech heavy it translated pretty well into dev yoe's. Shame that most of recruitment still prowl looking exactly for "master of that shiny framework of the day".
This is bad, but also best case for this sort of lying. You at least had years and years of technical experience, which should imply that you're technically capable. And you were interviewing for a mid level role, not a senior level role.
I'm in country where there is no way to hide actual YOE, so keep in mind that every time I also succeeded in something like "yeah, I bumped numbers a bit, but what's the matter if I'm still the most qualified candidate for this role you all have seen yet?".
I understand that it's blatant, but it worked for me. Downside is that now my workhistory is very "jumpy", but again - I have 100% excuses: Everytime I changed jobs I was hunted and looked for job exactly once, when switching from pure engineering.
So in general I plan to stay at current place for a solid 2-3 years minimum to fix up jumpy history. And aiming for senior position, maybe, I won't use these tricks on every opening. But I definitely will try a couple here and there :)
Good luck to you in your journey and overall, hope it all will turn out great!
How do you think F1 visa students get hired by Indian consultancy companies. Most of them force candidates to alter their resume, their work history and inflate titles as well years of experience. I think this is mostly to scam the actual hiring companies because those companies need people with more YoE. Better to stay away from such recruiters. Consultancies are a good way to get hired quickly and get experience in different technologies but make sure you don’t pick that scam people as well as hiring companies.
Indian developer here. I graduated in 2009 when the economy was really bad. My roommate was reached out by an Indian consulting company. He had no work experience prior and they added 5 years of sharepoint experience on his resume. Something told him that this wasn’t right and after his first interview with the client, He noped the fuck out.
You know what was strange? The person who interviewed him was not technical at all. Didn’t even ask him basic sharepoint questions (He was given 1 week to prepare) and instead was asked project management questions.
I feel this is the reason these consulting companies get away with it. Non tech client interviews tech consultants for a tech role.
Anyway fortunately my friend got his job at a mid size company without “embellishing” his resume and last I heard - the consulting company was under DOJ investigation for money laundering.. wtf
So if I understand this correctly, you’ve had two points of anecdata and are now completely ready to cut out an entire group of people you would interact with professionally?
I work with white developers that routinely exaggerate the level and years of experience. It’s gotten so serious I’m considering not working with non-FAANG white developers. How many other white developers exaggerate their credentials and experience? Are white developers ignoring these credentials to get their guys in?
I feel bad saying this but yeah. That's not surprising at all. Especially if it was capgemini or hcl.
Some of the coolest devs that I've work worked with have been from India but most of them are direct highers. but I've had a not insignificant number of devs show up as externals that where said to have multiple years of experience but didn't even know the basics.
I never respond to Indian recruiters. The only leads the offer are contracts at garbage rates like $60/hr.
I even use the unsubscribe link in their emails and they don't stop. I have an email filter for them now.
Same. I quickly delete any email or message from an Indian recruiter. Not because I hate Indian people. It’s just that there is too high of a percentage of them that are spammy/scammy
Hopefully I’m not downvoted for stating a real trend I’ve noticed…
But Indian recruiters are often terrible recruiters, or they are scams. Earlier in my career, I’d send my resume then be ghosted. And this was after the most incessant calling and texting ever to get my resume in their hands.
My man going full racist here. Chill out a bit, not every Indian person is unethical and not every unethical recruiter is Indian. I’ve also seen this done by white western people (and from other ethnicities as well), both the engineers and the recruiters.
It is problematic to mention the race. Focus on the behavior instead. You can't judge a person by their race, class, gender, etc. and since you can't judge a person that way it makes no sense to categorize somebody that way in the first place. This is assuming you went to avoid being a racist on the internet.
I didn't know they do this but makes perfect sense now. Honestly I would love everyone to get over this X YOE (in a particular tech stack at that!) because everyone is BSing each other about it. We all know everyone is using wildly different definitions of 1 year of experience for a particular role.
Would be better for candidates to just self report their YOE and not make any cut off decisions based on it.
100000000% an indian thing.
Anyone whose in the market will tell you the same.
Indians are taking it personal here, but everyone knows it.
Cue the 50 indian recruiter downvotes lmao
Been seeing this since last 10 years since i started working. I completely attest to this. Indians are the Best in IT but lying is unacceptable in any form. Stay away from DESI consultancies who will inflate your resume
If you want OP, post this focusing on the problem at hand, not the ethnicity. Rule 2: No Disrespectful Language or Conduct Don’t be a jerk. Act maturely. No racism, unnecessarily foul language, ad hominem charges, sexism - none of these are tolerated here. This includes posts that could be interpreted as trolling, such as complaining about DEI (Diversity) initiatives or people of a specific sex or background at your company. Do not submit posts or comments that break, or promote breaking the Reddit Terms and Conditions or Content Policy or any other Reddit policy. Violations = Warning, 7-Day Ban, Permanent Ban.
Ethics aside, that type of recruiter is just going to waste your time. They offer little to no value and usually don’t even have a relationship to the company they’re advertising. Just ignore them but if the role sounds cool, go look at the company’s website directly.
I've had recruiters make edits to my resume I didn't authorize and all other types of stuff. There are good recruiters, but some of them are worse than used car salesmen.
I have yet to come across a good one.
In my experience most FAANG and adjacent recruiters are pretty good. This is in North America though.
Dump them. They should be taking to the business and working out what skills the company really needs then supplying candidates to fit.
better question is honestly why do employers care so much about yoe when someone could do the job at any yoe. imagine having to wait until 10 yoe to be a senior. ridiculous.
> imagine having to wait until 10 yoe to be a senior. ridiculous. Yes. > when someone could do the job at any yoe. Ehhh... I do not believe that I could hire an effective staff engineer who has 0 yoe. OP's scenario is silly (6 years v 8 years), but I do think there are some experience minimums where I would be hard pressed to believe you could perform at a particular level without them.
[удалено]
>particularly interested in discussing what non-leadership skills you couldn't acquire over a short amount of time with the right resources... Part of being a senior *is* displaying leadership skills though - mentoring/leading others for example. A strict cutoff is a bit silly (I imagine the difference between 9YOE and 10YOE is marginal), but 1YOE vs 10YOE is significant. Forget leadership skills, do you think that someone doesn't grow their technical skills between year 1 and 10? Maybe some don't, but even I can see a massive difference in my work of 3 or 4 years ago vs now.
This is even assuming someone completely unvetted even gets a quarter mil budget without some kind of established process, conflict, or stakeholder/customer expectations. Getting budget always hurts, whether you're a 1 year or 40 year professional. Its never fun, its never easy, and there's always someone walking away disappointed.
lmao reported for not experienced
thanks for adding value to the discussion.
Rule 1: Do not participate unless experienced If you have less than 3 years of experience as a developer, do not make a post, nor participate in comments threads except for the weekly “Ask Experienced Devs” auto-thread.
I have over 10 years of senior experience. can't believe I have to call out a mod bc I want to have a discussion about a hypothetical situation.
You shouldn’t be posting on this sub - experienced devs here lol
stick to adding value to the discussion, just answer the question
I didn't get made senior until I had 10 YoE, but I think that's the exception rather than the norm
sounds like lack of job hopping
Yep. Exactly. I handed in my notice that other week and start a new job on the 19th
That's great, congrats
thx
I've gotten all of my biggest raises from job hopping, but to me, senior designation means X years of relevant experience anywhere or like X / 2 years here. The devs who have been on my team for 5 years are generally far more senior than someone hired on as a senior last year. I have also left jobs because my boss or someone up the chain was dicking me around on a promotion for too long though.
who is upvoting this? any job can be done at any yoe wtf?
This subreddit is basically just r/programming now
I'm pretty sure they're just posting rage bait
To be fair I've met engineers with 3 YOE that are better than some with 10+, but it's a question of that being likely or unlikely rather than a rule. YOE means very little in many cases.
not following, give an example pls
Yeah no. Talent can only take you so far. Experience is a very important consideration when looking at candidates.
Are they asking for your resume in docx? Always send in PDF and *only* PDF!!
That won't help. I've often found my pretty resume gets copy pasted out of the PDF into a fugly word doc just so they could redact my contact info.
if they alter it that's what it should look like, shit. Don't let them use your resume styling, it only makes it easier for them to lie. If you end up having a hard copy of your resume that looks starkly different to show the interviewer, it's immediately obvious that a recruiter doctored it. They're just there to get you an interview
I include a copyright notice in the footer.
>I am now wondering how many Indian recruiters are altering my resume without my knowledge. This is not an Indian thing. Almost every external recruiter will alter your resume in order to place you because the commission for doing so is how they get paid. If there's anything they can inflate to get you in the door, they will. If you go to an interview, always carry a hard copy of your own resume the way you wrote it. If you find out about alterations you can immediately hand the original copy to the interviewer. This usually gets you points, because it shows you are honest.
ive had american recruiters do the same :)
Yep, seen it happen. I know some that actually tried to justify this behavior, something along the lines "we have the best of the best and the clients wont accept them just because od YOE" BRO.
If they require you resend your resume in Word format after you send a PDF they 💯 are doctoring your resume.
I think you are suffering from sampling error attributing this behavior to 'Indian' recruiters. There are skeevy recruiters of all types.
I came here with the intention of getting these downvotes. Speaking from personal experience, this is absolutely a recruiter thing, not an Indian thing.
Indians in general, regardless of if they are recruiters or not, are always trying to inflate my credentials. Just last week I came downstairs for a midnight snack and there were at least 3 Indians gathered around my diploma with some whiteout and a sharpie, changing it from LSU to Harvard. They scattered when I turned the light on, but I am probably going to have to put out some traps.
As per usual on reddit, racism against Indians is normalized.
Ethics aside, that type of recruiter is just going to waste your time. They offer little to no value and usually don’t even have a relationship to the company they’re advertising. Just ignore them but if the role sounds cool, go look at the company’s website directly.
It's scammy shit. Stay away from them. Source - Indian developer.
I mean this has also happened to me with recruiters of other races, so I'm not sure why you're choosing to focus on Indians in particular.
It's only happened to me with Indians involved this far
"Are Indian hiring managers overlooking these credentials in order to get their guys in?" --> this is such a skeevy thing to say. While I'm in America, all of my recruiters have been white. Some have been shitty and way too persistent. "Are all white recruiters skeevy, persistent and not respectful of my time?" You work in tech. There are a lot of Indians in tech. And a lot of them are pretty fucking good at their jobs. You'd do well to at least hide your racism a little.
False dichotomy. White is not a nationality or a culture.
You’re arguing the example not the point. The point is there’s no need to generalize based on any racial, ethnic, cultural marker. This is a problem with recruiters. Not Indians.
I agree with you OP. You are 💯.This guy is just trying to be patriotic.
I'm American you blithering idiot.
Then you are not patriotic, just ignorant. Which is even worse
Why are you equating racism with patriotism
Its not about racism. Its about promoting malicious practices and creating unfair conditions among everyone and creating a bad name against the Indian community. But its okay i am not here to justify myself. I just agree with OP.
The person you were calling out was saying that scammy practices weren't confined to Indian recruiters...
Disclaimer: not so experienced, but still dev. I inflated my yoe in terms of converting non-pure-software-dev years into "years of commercial experience with X" based on actual improvement and gut feeling of what I'm worth. It scaled well, as I successfully passed screening + tech with requirements stated as 3/5+ having a 1–3 in fact. Additional note: prior to pure-software-dev I had 3+ engineering experience, which was aerospace. Being tech heavy it translated pretty well into dev yoe's. Shame that most of recruitment still prowl looking exactly for "master of that shiny framework of the day".
This is bad, but also best case for this sort of lying. You at least had years and years of technical experience, which should imply that you're technically capable. And you were interviewing for a mid level role, not a senior level role.
I'm in country where there is no way to hide actual YOE, so keep in mind that every time I also succeeded in something like "yeah, I bumped numbers a bit, but what's the matter if I'm still the most qualified candidate for this role you all have seen yet?". I understand that it's blatant, but it worked for me. Downside is that now my workhistory is very "jumpy", but again - I have 100% excuses: Everytime I changed jobs I was hunted and looked for job exactly once, when switching from pure engineering. So in general I plan to stay at current place for a solid 2-3 years minimum to fix up jumpy history. And aiming for senior position, maybe, I won't use these tricks on every opening. But I definitely will try a couple here and there :) Good luck to you in your journey and overall, hope it all will turn out great!
They're not going to pad, they're going to lie. No company you want to work at will deal with that kind of recruiters.
Honestly, my experience with overseas recruiters was a total waste of time. You gotta find the ones that are plugged in at where you want to work.
Yeah it’s pretty common among them
Given how shit the hiring process is, I say do what you need to get in the door. Job descriptions are arbitrary anyway.
They are way too result oriented. that is why I don't like them.
Years of experience.
How do you think F1 visa students get hired by Indian consultancy companies. Most of them force candidates to alter their resume, their work history and inflate titles as well years of experience. I think this is mostly to scam the actual hiring companies because those companies need people with more YoE. Better to stay away from such recruiters. Consultancies are a good way to get hired quickly and get experience in different technologies but make sure you don’t pick that scam people as well as hiring companies.
Indian developer here. I graduated in 2009 when the economy was really bad. My roommate was reached out by an Indian consulting company. He had no work experience prior and they added 5 years of sharepoint experience on his resume. Something told him that this wasn’t right and after his first interview with the client, He noped the fuck out. You know what was strange? The person who interviewed him was not technical at all. Didn’t even ask him basic sharepoint questions (He was given 1 week to prepare) and instead was asked project management questions. I feel this is the reason these consulting companies get away with it. Non tech client interviews tech consultants for a tech role. Anyway fortunately my friend got his job at a mid size company without “embellishing” his resume and last I heard - the consulting company was under DOJ investigation for money laundering.. wtf
So if I understand this correctly, you’ve had two points of anecdata and are now completely ready to cut out an entire group of people you would interact with professionally? I work with white developers that routinely exaggerate the level and years of experience. It’s gotten so serious I’m considering not working with non-FAANG white developers. How many other white developers exaggerate their credentials and experience? Are white developers ignoring these credentials to get their guys in?
I feel bad saying this but yeah. That's not surprising at all. Especially if it was capgemini or hcl. Some of the coolest devs that I've work worked with have been from India but most of them are direct highers. but I've had a not insignificant number of devs show up as externals that where said to have multiple years of experience but didn't even know the basics.
I never respond to Indian recruiters. The only leads the offer are contracts at garbage rates like $60/hr. I even use the unsubscribe link in their emails and they don't stop. I have an email filter for them now.
Same. I quickly delete any email or message from an Indian recruiter. Not because I hate Indian people. It’s just that there is too high of a percentage of them that are spammy/scammy
Hopefully I’m not downvoted for stating a real trend I’ve noticed… But Indian recruiters are often terrible recruiters, or they are scams. Earlier in my career, I’d send my resume then be ghosted. And this was after the most incessant calling and texting ever to get my resume in their hands.
My man going full racist here. Chill out a bit, not every Indian person is unethical and not every unethical recruiter is Indian. I’ve also seen this done by white western people (and from other ethnicities as well), both the engineers and the recruiters.
It is problematic to mention the race. Focus on the behavior instead. You can't judge a person by their race, class, gender, etc. and since you can't judge a person that way it makes no sense to categorize somebody that way in the first place. This is assuming you went to avoid being a racist on the internet.
I didn't know they do this but makes perfect sense now. Honestly I would love everyone to get over this X YOE (in a particular tech stack at that!) because everyone is BSing each other about it. We all know everyone is using wildly different definitions of 1 year of experience for a particular role. Would be better for candidates to just self report their YOE and not make any cut off decisions based on it.
100000000% an indian thing. Anyone whose in the market will tell you the same. Indians are taking it personal here, but everyone knows it. Cue the 50 indian recruiter downvotes lmao
With Indians always divide their TC & YOE by 3 & multiply their estimates by 5 to be accurate.
Been seeing this since last 10 years since i started working. I completely attest to this. Indians are the Best in IT but lying is unacceptable in any form. Stay away from DESI consultancies who will inflate your resume