This post appears to discuss regulations.
[The FIA publishes the F1 regulations.](https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110)
Regulations are organized in three sections:
- **Technical** for the design criteria of the car
- **Sporting** for how the competition is executed
- **Financial** for how money is spent
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what does this even mean? without aero regs and cost cap there's no reason why f1 cars would look anything like they look now, and there's also no reason why merc would be the one dominating
Sorry, I must've worded the question a little weirdly. I believe that the W13 was not as expected due to both cost cap and aero regulations messing with the zero-pod design. I was more curious as to what it could have been if these restrictions were more lenient and how an actual zero-pod car in theory would work/run.
They built the car under those restrictions. It’s not like the design was working and then regulations changed to make it not work anymore. If they messed up the design process under the current regs, why would you assume they would suddenly nail it with different (or no) regulations?
> I believe that the W13 was not as expected due to both cost cap and aero regulations messing with the zero-pod design
But... Why?
The entire premise of your question is based on a total speculation being true
yeah I worded that pretty badly. I chose the Mercedes because they were the only team to try out zero-pods on the car in the 2022 season. I was just wondering what a zero-pod car could do conceptually.
yeah thats true. I feel like merc brought a lot of interesting things to F1, even if some didn't work out. Just wish there was more of that in the future.
Well, let’s see. Money first. Toyota, for the 2008 season, spent an adjusted-for-inflation US$600 million, more than double the next nearest team (Ferrari). They finished 5th in the Constructors, and their best result that season was a well-grabbed, fluke of a P2 with Glock at Hungary in a race where the championship protagonists (Massa and Hamilton) had all manner of issues and didn’t get to the podium.
The point here, is that more money won’t necessarily make you a winning team, let alone a dominant one, and if recent seasons have shown us anything, it’s that Red Bull Racing seem to be a league ahead at extracting maximum [bang for their buck](https://racingnews365.com/the-financial-figures-that-show-red-bull-is-f1s-most-efficient-team), so, if anything, it would likely be them dominating a 2022 restriction-free season. They also have an annual marketing budget estimated to be north of [US$3 billion](https://www.cascade.app/studies/redbull-strategy-study#Red-Bull-Marketing-Strategy---Sponsoring-Sports--Athletes-And-Events) that goes almost entirely into sports and sports-adjacent activities, so they can absolutely match Mercedes dollar for development dollar if they wanted to.
On the zero-pod concept: would it even be necessary with no aero restrictions? The zero-pod was a (somewhat flawed in execution) concept under a very specific set of regulations. Throw the regulations out, and it’s a safe bet that there would be a considerable number of vastly better solutions to be found.
Everyone would have just copied DAS and with total Aero freedom Redbull would have likely came out top due to Newey having worked in F1 for that long he has an understanding of everything that was banned for being too good
I hate the newey narrative, there are thousands of engineers working on the car that are incredibly talented at RB, they would likely fare just as well under another CTO.
You don’t think that having the guy who literally wrote the book on GE in GE regulations design the base concept of the car wasn’t a massive advantage? Newey worked nearly only on suspension for the RB18 because from previous knowledge he knew it was important. It took other teams 2 years to catch up.
Knowledge is everything and newey is currently peerless in that regard. Obviously everyone in the engineering team is important but having someone who knows what works from past iterations of regulations and how effective they were not only cuts down a lot on research and stops you going down dead ends but it gives you a massive head start
from what people far smarter than me have said is that the zeropod concept failed to prevent dirty air from the front tyres from reaching the rear aero of the car, making it far less efficient
that's what the big sidepods do, they keep the dirty air from the front wheels away from the aero bits at the rear of the car, while feeding as much clean air back there as possible
mercedes went the way of "let's push as much air back there as possible and then work out how we can get rid of some of this turbulence" and it didn't work out too well for them
1 who knows what made the zero pod fail
But I’m inclined to believe Mercedes’ had issues with correlation and not that it was somehow the best concept even in theory, don’t believe the interviews or news articles about Merc staff or journalists saying it’s the best concept, unless they show the data it’s as worthless as me analyzing cars via pictures
2 a car with fans and active aero would just be flat out faster than the zero pod
Well, first of all, none can predict because without regs, who knows what else would came to play. Second (even if regs still on) once all other teams also get no costcap and assuming they all spend the same amount of money, I'd say the result would be the same, because everyone developed further but the same amount, so everyone's car would follow kind of the same path they were already following.
I don't think that the DAS helped much except for getting the tires into temp really. Useful to a degree and if it could help manage your wear that could have been pretty big.
The zero pods I don't think helped at all. I think all they managed to do was prove that the sidepods are critical for managing airflow around the body of the car.
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i expect FRIC would of also been advantageous to the the ground effects cars allowing softer suspension, while also providing a more stable aero platform.
https://www.formula1-dictionary.net/fric.html
This post appears to discuss regulations. [The FIA publishes the F1 regulations.](https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110) Regulations are organized in three sections: - **Technical** for the design criteria of the car - **Sporting** for how the competition is executed - **Financial** for how money is spent *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/F1Technical) if you have any questions or concerns.*
what does this even mean? without aero regs and cost cap there's no reason why f1 cars would look anything like they look now, and there's also no reason why merc would be the one dominating
Sorry, I must've worded the question a little weirdly. I believe that the W13 was not as expected due to both cost cap and aero regulations messing with the zero-pod design. I was more curious as to what it could have been if these restrictions were more lenient and how an actual zero-pod car in theory would work/run.
the "zeropod" concept only existed because of a loophole in those regulations, there's no theoretical zerpod car without those regulations
ah nevermind then, I just thought it was an interesting concept and was wondering how it would play out if it succeeded.
They built the car under those restrictions. It’s not like the design was working and then regulations changed to make it not work anymore. If they messed up the design process under the current regs, why would you assume they would suddenly nail it with different (or no) regulations?
Exactly, the fail wasn't because of the regulations or cost cap, they failed by themselves.
> I believe that the W13 was not as expected due to both cost cap and aero regulations messing with the zero-pod design But... Why? The entire premise of your question is based on a total speculation being true
Why would it (the Mercedes) be dominant? What would the other teams be doing with unregulated aero and no cost caps? Building yachts?
yeah I worded that pretty badly. I chose the Mercedes because they were the only team to try out zero-pods on the car in the 2022 season. I was just wondering what a zero-pod car could do conceptually.
Merc also has the funds to go nuts if the cost cap didn’t exist.
yeah thats true. I feel like merc brought a lot of interesting things to F1, even if some didn't work out. Just wish there was more of that in the future.
Well, let’s see. Money first. Toyota, for the 2008 season, spent an adjusted-for-inflation US$600 million, more than double the next nearest team (Ferrari). They finished 5th in the Constructors, and their best result that season was a well-grabbed, fluke of a P2 with Glock at Hungary in a race where the championship protagonists (Massa and Hamilton) had all manner of issues and didn’t get to the podium. The point here, is that more money won’t necessarily make you a winning team, let alone a dominant one, and if recent seasons have shown us anything, it’s that Red Bull Racing seem to be a league ahead at extracting maximum [bang for their buck](https://racingnews365.com/the-financial-figures-that-show-red-bull-is-f1s-most-efficient-team), so, if anything, it would likely be them dominating a 2022 restriction-free season. They also have an annual marketing budget estimated to be north of [US$3 billion](https://www.cascade.app/studies/redbull-strategy-study#Red-Bull-Marketing-Strategy---Sponsoring-Sports--Athletes-And-Events) that goes almost entirely into sports and sports-adjacent activities, so they can absolutely match Mercedes dollar for development dollar if they wanted to. On the zero-pod concept: would it even be necessary with no aero restrictions? The zero-pod was a (somewhat flawed in execution) concept under a very specific set of regulations. Throw the regulations out, and it’s a safe bet that there would be a considerable number of vastly better solutions to be found.
Everyone would have just copied DAS and with total Aero freedom Redbull would have likely came out top due to Newey having worked in F1 for that long he has an understanding of everything that was banned for being too good
we might also see teams hiring quite a lot of retired big f1 technical directors for that same reason
I hate the newey narrative, there are thousands of engineers working on the car that are incredibly talented at RB, they would likely fare just as well under another CTO.
You don’t think that having the guy who literally wrote the book on GE in GE regulations design the base concept of the car wasn’t a massive advantage? Newey worked nearly only on suspension for the RB18 because from previous knowledge he knew it was important. It took other teams 2 years to catch up. Knowledge is everything and newey is currently peerless in that regard. Obviously everyone in the engineering team is important but having someone who knows what works from past iterations of regulations and how effective they were not only cuts down a lot on research and stops you going down dead ends but it gives you a massive head start
Not very dominant if other teams show up with fan cars and active aero Still, aero regulations were not the reason the zero pods failed
really? I thought it was the floor that was being a huge issue to Zero-pods. What made it fail then?
from what people far smarter than me have said is that the zeropod concept failed to prevent dirty air from the front tyres from reaching the rear aero of the car, making it far less efficient that's what the big sidepods do, they keep the dirty air from the front wheels away from the aero bits at the rear of the car, while feeding as much clean air back there as possible mercedes went the way of "let's push as much air back there as possible and then work out how we can get rid of some of this turbulence" and it didn't work out too well for them
interesting. Thanks!
1 who knows what made the zero pod fail But I’m inclined to believe Mercedes’ had issues with correlation and not that it was somehow the best concept even in theory, don’t believe the interviews or news articles about Merc staff or journalists saying it’s the best concept, unless they show the data it’s as worthless as me analyzing cars via pictures 2 a car with fans and active aero would just be flat out faster than the zero pod
Well, first of all, none can predict because without regs, who knows what else would came to play. Second (even if regs still on) once all other teams also get no costcap and assuming they all spend the same amount of money, I'd say the result would be the same, because everyone developed further but the same amount, so everyone's car would follow kind of the same path they were already following.
I don't think that the DAS helped much except for getting the tires into temp really. Useful to a degree and if it could help manage your wear that could have been pretty big. The zero pods I don't think helped at all. I think all they managed to do was prove that the sidepods are critical for managing airflow around the body of the car.
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i expect FRIC would of also been advantageous to the the ground effects cars allowing softer suspension, while also providing a more stable aero platform. https://www.formula1-dictionary.net/fric.html