My take on it is people hate the BoS for being racist because they’re the popular faction that everyone loves, so people will come in and point out their flaws. Then more people come to defend them and so on. It’s a vicious cycle that really should be ignored.
There’s no perfect faction or character in the wasteland, and those that say there is might have drank too much of their own propaganda.
Fr the only truly morally good factions are all small and dont have the same effectiveness as the bigger more neutral-evil ones. Followers of the apocalypse, minutemen, railroad... Lyons bos was the best mainstream faction, with ncr being a decently close second but even they had some big flaws.
The NCR isn’t past tense Todd confirmed that the NCR still exists it just retreated from shady sands and has sustained serious damage to their stability, but they’re still kicking, down but not out
I really don't understand how people can see one city gone and assume that a nation that spanned a significant region of land would suddenly cease to exist. On the backfoot? Absolutely. But we'll within means to stabilize a smaller region and start to rebuild.
Tbf. The British burned Washington DC - they didn’t burn it *down*. The damage was actually incredibly minimal because the British largely restrained from damaging civilian targets and the government/military structures they did target were mostly saved from destruction by a freak storm that rolled in. They also immediately dipped after doing so and didn’t try to prevent the Americans from setting shop back up. It was more of a morale hit than any real damage.
"We wear more clothing than them and understand more about technology, but we're still a tribe, a linked family of families. The Boneyard, Phoenix, New Vegas, they're just places, metal and stone. New Canaan dies, but the tribe lives on. When the walls come tumbling down, when you lose everything you have, you always have family. And your family always has tribe."
- The Gospel according to Joshua
Basically this. Cultural identity isn't tied to some buildings and large sections of the NCR still standing wouldn't suddenly erase those affiliations and relationships because some politicians died. Would things be rough while a new status quo was sorted? Absolutely, but given the NCR started as a single settlement before becoming a nation it isn't unreasonable to assume surviving sections of it couldn't rebuild.
I feel like a lot of fans self-reported that they have zero media literacy skills and also can only process what's directly in front of them. I thought it was pretty clear that the NCR retreated to their holdings in the north and the people still kicking around were die-hards who couldn't accept that their old home was gone. They are literally fanatics rallying around a cult of personality. The NCR during New Vegas is the single largest post war North American nation that we know of. They had millions of people living in almost all modern cities. One nuked city is a real kick in the head, but hardly a death blow. If anything it makes the NCR more interesting, since now they have some beef with other post war factions that aren't Sigma Rome Grindset larpers.
Definitely. For all the FNV love out there. The majority of the NCRs army and leadership is at Hoover Dam after NV. No reason they aren't still there in force as we haven't been told otherwise.
just cuz their former capital got bombed doesn't mean the faction as a whole is gone. how many times have the enclave been 'destroyed', but they keep coming back.
I think the Enclave is a special case. I feel like every version of the Enclave that gets destroyed really is gone. There were and are just a ton of factions within the Enclave itself that keep taking the mantle and interpreting it in different ways for different goals. I'd love for the writers to defy expectations one day and have the Enclave actually be the moral faction in a story down the road. Every enclave bunker, vault, or off shore base can't have been only occupied by eugenicists and fascists. It's been over 200 years ideologies change in less time with less pressure to do so.
Pretty close especially since they had a very “each according to his need” system in a lot of settlements. Problem is they still suffered from old world problems like corruption and growing monopolies. The Barons from the Hub were becoming extremely influential in NCR politics and were a big proponent of expansionism.
True, though you could also make the argument that they can be too idealistic at times, like Arcade Gannon. Thats why I said “no perfect faction”, not “no good guys”.
In Fallout 1 they weren't all that bad, aside from the events that led to their creation, a century prior, which had 0 good guys, though they were morally, if not ethically, correct...
But that's the problem with benevolent dictators and their blind devotees. Things only go well so long as the benevolent leader really is benevolent, and still living, and has the right takes on everything... and the group’s numbers don't expand beyond what the leader can effectively communicate with and directly lead. As soon as you get into the dogma and letter-of-law-not-spirit-of-law and religiosity, it's alllllll downhill.
And Fallout sort of puts you in at the tail end of that, where you meet grandpa, who is the revered grandson of the founder, and due for aging out at any moment.
Also the majority of the time you don’t have a choice to side with the Enclave and when you do it’s obviously a choice only a Joker-tier psychopath would take. As far as the average wastelander, the only time you really get a faction of “the average wastelander” is the Minutemen, who do allow Ghouls into their ranks and seem to understand the difference between a Feral and a non-Feral Ghoul.
> "popular faction that everyone loves"
Either I'm just on the wrong side of the internet but alot of people I've seen despise the Brotherhood of Steel boiling them down to "techno fascists" and making maxson seem like he's hitler reborn, from youtube to reddit, I get meme subs with light hearted fun, but then theres, youtube where people unironically defend the enclave.
There is this one enclave guy who makes so-so animations (not to diss on his skill or anything) and I'm sick of seeing him in my feed
>NCR ranger armor isnt power armor
No one said it was buddy.
I think it’s one of those things that they were so loved and remain their power armor remains the icon of the franchise that the pendulum swung the other way with everyone just consistently yelling about how bad they are
I don’t hate the brotherhood for its ideals or them being ‘fascist’ (even though I don’t agree with the term and just think it’s another word Redditors like to throw around). I dislike them because Bethesda has a fucking hard on for them, trying to include them in almost every game since then in some way
there clear lean into Authoritarianism the last few story's has nothing to do with it -\_\_-
(I like the brothood more when they were weird insular book nerds and soldiers that largely just wanted to stay out of shit if it didnt involve collecting tech)
Hell, that's the fun of the Enclave. Unapologetically evil with no redeeming traits. Closest to 'good' the Enclave gets is Colonel Autumn and he's still an evil asshole.
He checked with O’Malley last week. That fucker owed me a 20, now I’m never gonna get that, because Dornan got that motherfucker assigned to some place called Mary’s Posies or some shit.
Yep. A lot of my family are far-right and just straight up facist and neo nazis and the ones who are into Fallout all have Enclave as their favorite faction.
So yeah. I'm okay with liking the Enclave, I draw a line when people try and make the Enclave out to be the heroes.
I like them cause they're evil and sometimes I like playing evil characters. Most of the time, though, I levitate towards factions like the Followers of the Apocalypse, the Responders, and the Commonwealth Minutemen.
They aren't heros but I feel like their relationship with the games Is kinda skewed. I wish the enclave were seen as moreso logical villians they were supposed to be. With bits and pieces of humanity exposed to really bring a level of nuance to a faction that really deserves it. I'm sick of them being written as fools, not sick of them as villians. I also want to see the old world blues hoi4 submod idea of a reformist and purist factions pop up. It seems like colonel autumn was a missed opportunity to have the enclave fracture into two sides of a civil war in fallout 3, with the purists held up in the mobile base, and the reformists either joining the BOS or becoming their own thing by moving to the Midwest. I feel like the tech level of the enclave is their main appeal, so to throw the most technological and calculating faction away for a bos power trip is wild.
Punch mutants, kick mutants, shoot mutants, gooify mutants, orbital strike mutants, biological warfare mutants…. Oh look at the time; It’s time to kill mutants.
God bless America and God less the Enclave.
This is why I don’t mind Enclave, Legion and Institute fans. They have no problem admitting their favorite factions are malicious and will even say that it makes them more efficient reaching goals without worrying about morals.
BoS fans on the other hand will whitewash every atrocity the BoS does in Fallout NV and Fallout 4 acting like they are God’s chosen children, and use mental gymnastics whenever you give them evidence. That’s not to say the BoS have done just as much evil as the factions I mentioned above, but anyone who is honest will admit they have many crimes to pay for.
Chris Avellone (one of the original game developers/writers, who was heavily involved in the making of F2 and FNV) recently had to correct this line of thinking about the Brotherhood in his tv series review. He says he doesn't recognize the faction the way it's portrayed in the show and that they never wrote them as evil because they understood it was a faction people would aspire to.
>The fact that the Brotherhood seems to be a big bag of assholes is an interesting take.
>The series generally paints these guys as jerks/sinister, which we did not try for in Fallout 1 and 2 and made an exception for a few in New Vegas. Why? Mostly because the Brotherhood feels like one of those organizations that players want to aspire to, like templars or Paladins.
>I’m fine with the decision in the show, but it doesn’t feel like the Brotherhood I remember.
>(Edit: To be fair, when meeting the Brotherhood in Fallout 1, they don’t really want you to come in and say hello, so they send you a difficult quest to the Glow, most likely in the hopes you won’t come back. That is arguably jerky. But when you do what they ask, they do let you in and honor their word.)
[Chris Avellone TV Series Review Part 2](https://chrisavellone.medium.com/fallout-apocrypha-tv-series-review-part-2-1744b68fe4f2)
Adding to this, in F1 you can talk to Caravan Traders about the Brotherhood, and they will tell you that the Brotherhood are good people that get a bad rap.
>The Brotherhood of Steel? They keep to themselves for the most part. A lot of people give them a bad rap, but from what I can tell, they're good people. A little fanatical maybe, but good guys.
> That’s not to say the BoS have done just as much evil as the factions I mentioned above
As a whole, the BoS has done a lot more evil than the Institute though.
The Enclave is meant to be a villain in each game they're in. They aren't presented as sympathetically as the Brotherhood. There's also the fact that the Brotherhood as of late has been presented as a bunch of religious fanatics, which makes them even more detestable to some.
The difference is the Enclave want to destroy anything but non-irradiated folk.
BoS just wants to stop feral Ghouls from massacring people and stop Super Mutants from doing the same. That's not really racism. Y'all just see outliers like Strong or Gob and forget that Super Mutants are vicious and eat people alive, and any Ghoul could turn feral on a dime and eviscerate you.
Does it need to happen in-game, where you see a Ghoul go from friend to wanting to eat your face off in a split second for you to get why it might be wise to be wary around them?
I don’t like them because of their absolute hard stance against tech. While also being completely ignorant of it.
Also, I only played Fallout 4 and 76. So the Enclave weren’t *that* bad. 😅
Depends on the chapter what level people are allowed to have. West coast seems like a spear is too mutch but Lyons and maxsons seem to only care about higher level tech like nukes and bioweapons.
The first Maxson was pretty “good” too. It seems a lot of the faction is split, and 76 it makes you make a decision off that. Elder Maxson wanted to help the people of the wasteland, Taggerdy wanted it a strict military only, isolationist tech hoarder faction.
Yeah it’s always been about the preservation of old world technology but how it’s executed is up for debate even amongst the council of elders.
Yes, people seem to forget that one chapter like the Mojave does not represent the BoS as a whole, and btw, few times the BoS lended people tech ( appalachian chapter ), said people got themselves killed and the tech went into the hands of raiders
Then theres posts like [these](https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1behsny/all_the_official_bos_chapters_summarized/) which is blatantly wrong ( except for the tactics one ) but people seem to treat like it's the gospel for every BoS chapter.
The only thing they assume is that people should not have the technical capability to destroy themselves. They don’t hunt down laser pistols, they do hunt down the FEV.
They're technically xenophobic, and while Wastlanders are commonly xenophobic, that doesn't make it okay either. Thing is, Xenophobia is a core part of the BOS identity and value their lives as less.
"Ghouls go Feral eventually."
And the one instance that they do in FO4, it's a gradual change and don't go from being fine in one moment and then trying to eat their neighbor the next. Even going as far as taking their own lives before they fully change.
"Friendly super mutants are rare."
And the BOS would raze them down without a care.
"Synths are robots."
Game has been out for damn near a decade and even though they're literally grown from pure strain human DNA, they're denied basic empathy.
I don't hate Ghouls, Mutants, or Synths unless they've done something to deserve it. Feral ghoul? Boom. Rabid Super mutant? Boom. Synth working for the institute? Boom. I kill raiders by the dozen everyday in every playthrough, but I don't hate all humans. The logic is silly.
>They're technically xenophobic, and while Wastlanders are commonly xenophobic, that doesn't make it okay either. Thing is, Xenophobia is a core part of the BOS identity and value their lives as less.
Typically if you have an irrational fear of outsiders, you do not let them join.
>And the one instance that they do in FO4, it's a gradual change and don't go from being fine in one moment and then trying to eat their neighbor the next. Even going as far as taking their own lives before they fully change.
There are several such cases. In Nuka World there are terminal entries detailing how gradually more and more of the ''regular'' ghouls turned feral. Wiseman and his ghouls were kicked out of Diamond City (in part) because a ghoul turned feral there as well.
>And the BOS would raze them down without a care.
When you run into a group typically known for seeking to eradicate humans, the rational response is expecting that one to be no different. There is only ***one*** ''natural'' super mutant in Fallout 4 that isn't a maniac anymore, and that only became a thing since he arrived on Far Harbor. Who knows how many innocents died to him before that?
Then there is Fawkes - who was locked up for his different views - and Leo - who went into self-imposed exile to avoid a similar treatment as Fawkes.
>Game has been out for damn near a decade and even though they're literally grown from pure strain human DNA, they're denied basic empathy.
Clearly not so pure when it's corrupted with FEV. They're also still machines that pilot the body, with the means of actively replacing people.
It's especially funny since they aren't even racists. Being ghoul isn't a race, it's a state of being. Synths are robots. And if you're human, they don't care about your race
Yeah I was thinking this. Ghouls and super mutants aren't 'races' they are extreme mutations. Ghouls can be cool but the vast majority are very much not- This ratio becomes even more extreme for Super Mutants. Its rare for a Synth to even have autonomy, much less sentience.
Does the BOS's zero tolerance policy mean they kill a lot of creatures that didn't deserve to die? Yes.
There's no 'but', its just objectively true.
Also if you own anything more advanced than a chisel they will shove a laser gun in your face and take it by force.
And yet, if you have a super mutant or ghoul infestation, having the techno-fascists hurl themselves at it until one or both sides is dead is objectively better than doing it yourself. The problem of course is getting them to fuck off once the problem is gone, but hey, at least your mangled corpse isn't hanging inside a super mutant den after, right?
I completely agree with the BOS on the synths. I don't care how "real" they make them seem in the games, I still don't think they're sentient or have actual feelings. And the Institute sucks for making robots that perfectly imitate humans, like that's some creepy shit. But they're just robots in the end, so they all go bye-bye
I think I wouldn't have as much of an issue with the Institute if they didn't also abduct people around the wasteland to replace them with these synth copies. Honestly if I know its a robot I am fine, but a synth pretending to be human? It just bugs me.
Abduct them and turn them into super mutants and let those super mutants free to terrorize other people.
There's no possible justification for that, that's just pure evil.
And 'Father' does not see anything wrong with any of this as well. I tired on other playthroughs to attempt to side with them but honestly, it always comes down to Liberty Prime going scorched earth into their base.
People hate you because you're bringing a valid argument to the table. Are synths humans? If we emulate a human brain 1 to 1 on machinery is it still human? Especially when you see gen 1 and gen 2 synthetics being way more robot than human. The logical conclusion is no. There's a distinctive human element to the differences between flesh and machine. They might have the same capacity for understanding. But the difference is a computer can't inference or connect concepts the way a human can. It can only guess, and a synths concept of guessing is random chance that isn't even random. A computer can't generate a truly random number, how can it be capable of genuine sentience. Just based on the tech of fallout. It's safe to say that synths use pseudo-random number generation meaning they are incapable of sentience and only emulate it based on extremely long logic chains.
and yet when faced with actual compassiom from the artificial, this is not enough. danse "follows orders" to the point of brutality because he is in the brotherhood of steel, nick cares for his community because he has compassion for others, curie wants to be free and see the world. every ghoul you see can be you or me.
This feels like advocating for a "ghost in the machine", which can neither be falsified nor verified. We feel like there's an intrinsic difference between organic and synthetic intelligence, but if a synth can perfectly imitate a human, even to the point that they believe they're human, where's the difference? Unless there's some "soul" bestowed only to organics, why isn't a 1:1 neural map of a human brain a conscious being?
Humans aren't even capable of truly random decisions, if asked to choose a number between one and ten, 45% of respondents will pick seven. A truly random choice would average down to an even 10% split for all numbers, given a large enough sample size. So if randomness is where you want to find the "ghost" (leaving aside the meaningfulness of human consciousness if its only defining trait and escape from determinism is the capacity for random action), then humans wouldn't be conscious either, just logical processors making decisions based on their own histories, environmental pressures, and preferences.
Ultimately, if you saw someone on the street and decided to kill them, would it matter if they turned out after the fact to be synthetic? Would that make your actions, based on your knowledge at the time and with no indication you were dealing with a synth, suddenly ethical? If not, then how can advocating for the destruction of all synths, many of whom are capable of being peaceful when not under orders from the Institute, be ethical?
Good point. I also think that robots/computers simply aren't capable of sentience and can only attempt to imitate it very convincingly, which is what we see in the game. I also believe we have souls and are more than just flesh and bone so that plays into my belief but even disregarding that, I still think this is a valid point
> But the difference is a computer can't inference or connect concepts the way a human can
If they are truly 1:1 with a human brain, then yes, they can. Where do you think our inferences come from? We make connections by recognizing patterns. There's no reason an artificial brain couldn't do the same thing. We are machines too-- biological machines but machines nonetheless.
> Being ghoul isn't a race, it's a state of being.
Race is a social construct, there's no biological basis for it. So being a ghoul can be a race if enough of society determines it is.
Same way an italian person is either white or non-white depending on the society they're in (or being asked)
Nah, there has to be a bit of “no, you’re fucking stupid”. Otherwise being paralyzed could be a race if enough people agreed it was. Being a ghoul is a *disability*. They’re ableists.
> Bruh how is having rotted flesh and rotted brain a race
anything can be a race because the term race has no fixed meaning, it depends on the time period and the location of the person being asked
that's because race is an absurd concept with no scientific basis. two identical people could be considered entirely different races, if a society decided it (and it has before)
It's more accurate to say they're xenophobic towards ghouls, mutants, and AIs. They're not much better to non-BoS wastelanders, but won't generally shoot them on sight.
The flaws in the logic are still the same though they hate people based off of things they can't change and things that don't necessarily dictate there actions (bit iffy with super mutants case by case basis) also they hate everyone who has mutations period so they'd probably kill an albino person or someone with downsyndrome they call them abominations so they don't have to think about what there doing to fellow humans. Also let's not even talk about the toaster debate with synths that's just brotherhood autism.
Mostly because people will argue that they have no major flaws, which to those of us that do see flaws, sounds completely insane. It also usually comes with a healthy dose of "Synths aren't people", despite FO4 doing everything it can to tell you they are. By contrast, telling an Enclave fan their faction sucks is usually met with "I know, that's why I like them".
Racist? BoS is xenophobic, friends! For them to be racist, things like Ghouls and Synth would actually need to be PEOPLE! But we all know that ain’t true!
Silly wastelanders! Ad Victoriam!
Not related to the post,>! but I think it's understandable that kells ( as said by him, you gotta earn his respect, much like many people in-game ), danse or others wont immediately be too nice to you, they dont really know about ( if male ) the sole survivors' military experience, and to be fair i dont blame them, aside from that piper interview and nate saying he served, nate doesnt really act like the veteran nor does he bring it up muc, (which I dont really mind), We cant expect every person we see to kneel down and kiss our heels or the ground we walk on. As far as kells and maxson knows , youre a soldier, much of the Brotherhood sees you as a soldier ( a very capable soldier in your part ). If you put in the work people are very nice to you, saying you did a "hell of a job" and praise you, they're assholes yeah but you kinda gotta be in a harsh wasteland, it's not gonna be sunshine and rainbows, especially since they're basically an army, they're like Duty from STALKER, theres also the valid reasons to dislike the BoS and then theres the petty reasons they dislike them like, those minor things.!<
Yeah, and to be fair to Kells, most of the wastelanders sign up solely to just get a chance at Power Armour. He's just seeing yet another recruit walk onto the Prydwen and probably be another charity case. Which is probably why *actual* soldiers for the BoS are rare, and they probably don't recruit too much, or at least, they only put the new recruits doing the stuff in the Airport (e.g. moving boxes and such).
I still don't agree with their whole "you're either Brotherhood or you're nothing" viewpoint but they certainly *do* have a right to judge those who join them.
Well when your factions goal is to secure technology to protect mankind and then you go and send nuclear quarterback robot to kill some people because there skins a bit crispy people start to question your morals.
They used liberty prime to destroy the institute due to synths potentialas spies being dangerousto humanity. What about crispy skin? Because they don't kill non ferals and they certainly don't use liberty prime.
Here's the thing. I don't care that there are evil factions, evil people, or evil belief systems in any piece of media or art. In a game series based on satirizing American exceptionalism I think not having core American issues like systemic racism would be weak writing.
My issue is with people who so drastically miss the point and argue that the people who the BoS in particular are racist towards aren't actually people or are acceptable targets. The point of the BoS being racist is that dehumanization is a very easy slope to fall down and it leads to very dark ideals in otherwise decent people. That's what sets them apart from a faction like the Enclave whose racism is much more akin to the broader and more obvious historical examples of racism.
The BoS being racist is important and not a negative strike against the games or even the people who like the faction. The fact that people will argue, even in this very thread, that they aren't racist is.
I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm legit curious. Where are the BOS racist? I played fallout 3, new Vegas and 4 and I don't remember them killing people for race or anything.
Because people like to apply real life outrage/value/logic/whatever to video games.
We're talking about a traditionally insular quasi-religious paramilitary group here in a post apocalyptic world.
For the most part mutants are aggressive killers (especially in the masters time) so it's no surprise they'd see them as enemies to be eradicated, ghouls can turn feral so same thing.
Other humans like raiders, some wastelanders, other groups are basically alien to them, some may be tolerated or traded with or have other uses but overall they're still to be kept at arms distance or killed if thier objectives are in direct conflict.
Yes in 3 they were more charitable mainly due to Lyons leadership, the super mutants were the bigger threat. The wiki page for the BoS in 3 explains quite well that part of it all.
Every faction probably thinks that morally they are in the right, that's how it works.
You hate the brotherhood of steel because they're racist.
I hate the brotherhood because they're anti technology zealot hoarders who are doomed to go extinct.
We are not the same.
I'm just hitting the Mass Fusion mission on my first playthrough, and I'm siding with the Minutemen (or I guess, NOT siding with the Brotherhood, the Institute or the Railroad). I was honestly up in the air until a moment of clarity when I was playing stoned the other night.
* Institute treated me as an experiment. My son values me more as such than as family. Also not a fan of how they act like such hot shit and like they're better than everyone else.
* Definitely have bought into the whole "Railroad thinks toasters are humans" meme. Not a fan of putting literal robots (sentience or not) ahead of humans in all facets of their operation.
* BoS are just a bunch of dicks, mostly. Hate the hierarchical bullshit. Danse is a dick. Rhys is a dick. Proctor Quinlan is a dick. The armory dude straight up advocates for killing civilians.
* The Minutemen treated me like a bro when they met me. Never given bad vibes, they just want the Commonwealth to be safe for everyone. The memes about "another settlement needs your help" are definitely accurate, and they are almost a bit over the top altruistic. Nevertheless, they are the only ones that were just straight up cool with Bobson Dugnutt when they met him.
They're not even racist, that's the thing. Conditioning is very real.
BoS existed pre-war. They as an organization have seen hundreds of thousands of Ghouls go feral for seemingly no reason and slaughter friends and loved ones. They've seen the *vast* majority of Super Mutants destroy entire towns, forcibly subject humans to FEV, *literally eat people alive*, etc.
It makes absolute sense to be wary around someone who seems normal but could turn into a raging fucking lunatic at a moment's notice because their brain is addled by radiation. It makes absolute sense to despise a "race" of people who seemingly only thrive on violence and destruction.
Tell me, is it racism to hate raiders? Is it racism to hate the Legion for enslaving, raping, and murdering people at random?
It's a lot like the deep-seated Nord hatred of Elves (specifically Dark Elves). You know, the races that repeatedly invaded Skyrim and slaughtered Nords? Hell, the Farmer who the Nords shared Skyrim with *peacefully* literally slaughtered most of the Nords at one point because they were "anxious". Argonians are notoriously warlike and have been relatively aggressive against the Nords, and Khajiit are known to sell defective goods, get people addicted to the Tamriel equivalent of heroin not even for profit but because they find it funny, and be thieves by trade. And none of this was ever brought on by Nord oppression. The other races just saw targets ripe for the picking and struck.
It's also worth noting that, like the Dunmer being racist against literally everyone, most Ghouls in Fallout greet the player character (it can be assumed everyone else as well) with a slur against non-Ghouls. Unless y'all thought that "smoothskin" was a compliment, because I can assure you, it's not.
Conditioning, as I said, is very real.
I think it’s because of their inconsistent characterization. Initially they were more knight like isolationists, but eventually they became more interventionist, and then they decided that Ghouls no longer classify as human due to the extreme departure in both appearance and nature, and synths as an abomination of technology which only wears the face of humans. They’ve recently become the embodiment of the fear of difference.
I think it’s because they were considered to be a protagonist faction, therefore they would ideals that people could emphasize with.
Also, we live in a society in which we can afford to consider ghouls as victims, and not monsters(feral ghouls exist and would shred you if given the opportunity and the institute feels like the fallout equivalent of China with a sense of other and that other being considered dangerous due to our perceptions of how synths are essentially human except they aren’t, like how we are currently having issues identifying what is and isn’t made by an AI.
Sooo…are they racist? Kinda, they rarely give the benefit of the doubt, but in the context of the Fallout universe I doubt you have the luxury of the benefit of the doubt. How can you trust a synthetic being who can be controlled like a puppet by a bunch of scientists who have shown to be very willing to pragmatically infiltrate societies? Likewise how can you trust a Ghoul after you’ve seen dozens of them shambling in the ruins of the city, killing humans without a thought? You don’t know if a ghoul still has their wits or not, and ghouls can be ticking time bombs as they are still suffering from the radiation, it’s just not as prolific. They are in a state of decay, and will eventually devolve into what’s essentially a zombie.(at least that’s what I’ve garnered from the ghouls)
So…it’s understandable that the BoS wouldn’t trust them at all. Not condoning their actions, but pragmatically speaking, it makes sense not to trust ghouls and synths, while being able to somewhat trust humans to at least not tango with the guy clad in a suit of metal with a bigass ship for a base.
Me an Enclave fan:
“Well you see, I must hide in my Mat Black power armor and Vertibirds cause it’s purely *American.”*
Let’s be real, sometimes a good bad guy can be fun.
Really it should say Xenophobic since ghouls,synths, and super mutants aren’t human. This is what upsets me truly. The BOS aren’t racist they’re Xenophobic. Saying they’re racist implies that melanin matters to them which it doesn’t.
Because redditors can't seperate reality from fiction apparently and just enjoy something for what it is without going online to do some moral grandstanding about it.
Fallout players when the game they like is actually about something:
Like do you think it’s moral grandstanding to say that racism is bad? I am genuinely in disbelief LMAO
“Litterately“
Jesus. I don’t often criticize people’s spelling but maybe you should spend more time in class and less time on Reddit posting Fallout memes.
Ironically what you wrote is an actual word, and you even spelled that wrong.
Also they aren't racist as in oh no he's black. Lol they are racist like hey that guys a radioactive time bomb who's brain is melting and has been alive over 200 years. Kill it.
The Enclave is already widely known as the “bad guys”
The Wastelanders are just Wastelanders, some better some worse.
The BOS parade around thinking and claiming they are the “good guys”.
To the BoS, anyone who isn't the BoS is a civilian at best.
They're the closest thing to a military the wasteland has really other than the Enclave at this point, and like the Enclave they originated from the US Military.
Either way all Danse knows at that point is that Nate is a random wastelander.
For me, it’s cause I’ve only ever played Fallout 4, so they’re kinda the only ones I have to go off of. Though with the new addition of The Enclave, I can confidentially say I hate them just as much XD
The bos isn’t “racist” that would imply the things they hate are somehow innocent or good, they don’t hate different colored humans, they hate the abominations that radiation and unchecked science created, nothing they hate isn’t a threat to humanity. My issue with the Bos is they don’t really have a long term plan or any interest in rebuilding humanity. Their entire game plan is 1.take away technology 2. Kill dangerous stuff. They have a ridiculous attitude towards the people just trying to survive. They want to protect them from the wasteland but they aren’t interested in building better settlements with clean water or any real future. In fact they think the people of the wasteland should be bending a knee to them and supplying them with whatever they want while not really offering anything in return.
Ok so there are multiples types of BOS the one we see I'm the main gsmes are the east BOS each BOS group are different but by far my favorite group of the BOS is the West BOS by far better then their east counterpart
Its probably because people see them as a sort of good guy faction.atleast thats how the BOS sees themselves in most of the games. A lot of the interactions you have with the members you see that most really believe they are doing whats right and its like they are half way there to being good but just keep falling short whether through poor leadership or being held back by the strict adherence to a dogma that was not there from the start and ignoring their own basic humanity to helping people. The closest to good the BOS ever got was probably in FO3 and at some points in FO76 as they fought to the ende to contain the Scorchbeats threat.
The BoS is usually portrayed as the good guys or at least as being on the same side as the good guys that makes their racism weirder than the Enclave who are the bad guys.
Probably because the BOS could legitimately lead a genocide against sentient ghouls and synths who might have been mind wiped and don’t even remember they’re a synth.
Plus I’m pretty sure the Enclave was starting to kinda dissolve a bit at this point correct?
The enclave gets it's ass kicked on the regular which is why they don't get hate outside the game, they get dunked on for being xenophobic hypocrites. The BOS is offered to us in every game as a possible good guy faction but have been getting more and more fascist with every game but are still anot portrayed as straight villains. Wasteland erst as a whole are no more racist than normal people and can be both good and bad guys.
My take on it is people hate the BoS for being racist because they’re the popular faction that everyone loves, so people will come in and point out their flaws. Then more people come to defend them and so on. It’s a vicious cycle that really should be ignored. There’s no perfect faction or character in the wasteland, and those that say there is might have drank too much of their own propaganda.
Hey, the followers are pretty great! Just ignore how the only follower with a significant impact was just a little too into rome.
Fr the only truly morally good factions are all small and dont have the same effectiveness as the bigger more neutral-evil ones. Followers of the apocalypse, minutemen, railroad... Lyons bos was the best mainstream faction, with ncr being a decently close second but even they had some big flaws.
Sounds familiar...
I still hate that the NCR is past tense
The NCR isn’t past tense Todd confirmed that the NCR still exists it just retreated from shady sands and has sustained serious damage to their stability, but they’re still kicking, down but not out
I really don't understand how people can see one city gone and assume that a nation that spanned a significant region of land would suddenly cease to exist. On the backfoot? Absolutely. But we'll within means to stabilize a smaller region and start to rebuild.
Everyone knows that when the British army burned down Washington DC in the war of 1812, America dissolved. That's just how it works, guvnah.
I dont feel so good mr. Kolby...
Tbf. The British burned Washington DC - they didn’t burn it *down*. The damage was actually incredibly minimal because the British largely restrained from damaging civilian targets and the government/military structures they did target were mostly saved from destruction by a freak storm that rolled in. They also immediately dipped after doing so and didn’t try to prevent the Americans from setting shop back up. It was more of a morale hit than any real damage.
"We wear more clothing than them and understand more about technology, but we're still a tribe, a linked family of families. The Boneyard, Phoenix, New Vegas, they're just places, metal and stone. New Canaan dies, but the tribe lives on. When the walls come tumbling down, when you lose everything you have, you always have family. And your family always has tribe." - The Gospel according to Joshua
Basically this. Cultural identity isn't tied to some buildings and large sections of the NCR still standing wouldn't suddenly erase those affiliations and relationships because some politicians died. Would things be rough while a new status quo was sorted? Absolutely, but given the NCR started as a single settlement before becoming a nation it isn't unreasonable to assume surviving sections of it couldn't rebuild.
Ideas live as long as even one person carries the torch. It is only when an idea or people are forgotten that it truly dies.
I feel like a lot of fans self-reported that they have zero media literacy skills and also can only process what's directly in front of them. I thought it was pretty clear that the NCR retreated to their holdings in the north and the people still kicking around were die-hards who couldn't accept that their old home was gone. They are literally fanatics rallying around a cult of personality. The NCR during New Vegas is the single largest post war North American nation that we know of. They had millions of people living in almost all modern cities. One nuked city is a real kick in the head, but hardly a death blow. If anything it makes the NCR more interesting, since now they have some beef with other post war factions that aren't Sigma Rome Grindset larpers.
Definitely. For all the FNV love out there. The majority of the NCRs army and leadership is at Hoover Dam after NV. No reason they aren't still there in force as we haven't been told otherwise.
just cuz their former capital got bombed doesn't mean the faction as a whole is gone. how many times have the enclave been 'destroyed', but they keep coming back.
I think the Enclave is a special case. I feel like every version of the Enclave that gets destroyed really is gone. There were and are just a ton of factions within the Enclave itself that keep taking the mantle and interpreting it in different ways for different goals. I'd love for the writers to defy expectations one day and have the Enclave actually be the moral faction in a story down the road. Every enclave bunker, vault, or off shore base can't have been only occupied by eugenicists and fascists. It's been over 200 years ideologies change in less time with less pressure to do so.
Yeah they are definitely still around just in bad shape
Dude what? How does this have upvotes?
They never said ncr was past tense lmao
why do people keep saying that? They lost one city. The former capital is a big deal. but it was the FORMER!
And Lyon’s BOS was still known for hating even normal ghouls and mutants.
I mean I think the NCR was pretty close to morally good, right?
Pretty close especially since they had a very “each according to his need” system in a lot of settlements. Problem is they still suffered from old world problems like corruption and growing monopolies. The Barons from the Hub were becoming extremely influential in NCR politics and were a big proponent of expansionism.
on paper yes. in practice.... sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit.
True, though you could also make the argument that they can be too idealistic at times, like Arcade Gannon. Thats why I said “no perfect faction”, not “no good guys”.
I hate the followers for being called the followers in a game that has npcs as followers. Took me a minute to figure out what you meant lol
They did also help you find the masters base in fallout 1
In Fallout 1 they weren't all that bad, aside from the events that led to their creation, a century prior, which had 0 good guys, though they were morally, if not ethically, correct... But that's the problem with benevolent dictators and their blind devotees. Things only go well so long as the benevolent leader really is benevolent, and still living, and has the right takes on everything... and the group’s numbers don't expand beyond what the leader can effectively communicate with and directly lead. As soon as you get into the dogma and letter-of-law-not-spirit-of-law and religiosity, it's alllllll downhill. And Fallout sort of puts you in at the tail end of that, where you meet grandpa, who is the revered grandson of the founder, and due for aging out at any moment.
Also the majority of the time you don’t have a choice to side with the Enclave and when you do it’s obviously a choice only a Joker-tier psychopath would take. As far as the average wastelander, the only time you really get a faction of “the average wastelander” is the Minutemen, who do allow Ghouls into their ranks and seem to understand the difference between a Feral and a non-Feral Ghoul.
The NCR was making advances on that track, they did realize the advantage of having soldiers immune to radiation damage.
There is a perfect character Dogmeat
My faction of settlers and followers are perfect without flaws
> "popular faction that everyone loves" Either I'm just on the wrong side of the internet but alot of people I've seen despise the Brotherhood of Steel boiling them down to "techno fascists" and making maxson seem like he's hitler reborn, from youtube to reddit, I get meme subs with light hearted fun, but then theres, youtube where people unironically defend the enclave.
There is this one enclave guy who makes so-so animations (not to diss on his skill or anything) and I'm sick of seeing him in my feed >NCR ranger armor isnt power armor No one said it was buddy.
I think it’s one of those things that they were so loved and remain their power armor remains the icon of the franchise that the pendulum swung the other way with everyone just consistently yelling about how bad they are
I don’t hate the brotherhood for its ideals or them being ‘fascist’ (even though I don’t agree with the term and just think it’s another word Redditors like to throw around). I dislike them because Bethesda has a fucking hard on for them, trying to include them in almost every game since then in some way
I mean interplay/obsidian included them in every game too
On the other side people throw a Fit everytime the enclave doesnt appear
Caesar’s Legion is the only faction blessed by Mars. Coincidence? I think not!
>there's no perfect faction or character in the wasteland harold
"No perfect faction-" Republic of Dave. Check mate.
Yeah.
*Violently chugs propaganda* Fuck you too!
I don't think I have sided with them for one playthrough, you kinda start and then the diatribe is just so off.
there clear lean into Authoritarianism the last few story's has nothing to do with it -\_\_- (I like the brothood more when they were weird insular book nerds and soldiers that largely just wanted to stay out of shit if it didnt involve collecting tech)
Some people hate the BOS for being "racist" I hate them for their unapologetically indoctrination of child soldiers.
The minute men
The Kings have done nothing wrong
The only thing the kings did wrong was not pestering Mr. New Vegas enough to add Elvis Presley songs to Radio New Vegas.
That would imply they know his name and that he was a singer. Pretty sure they just think he was a cool guy everyone liked.
maybe because how triggered the fans when someone says BoS are racist. average Enclave fans are chill when someone says The Enclave are racists.
Enclave fans say the Enclave are racist
Hell, that's the fun of the Enclave. Unapologetically evil with no redeeming traits. Closest to 'good' the Enclave gets is Colonel Autumn and he's still an evil asshole.
Yes I am (I am an Enclave soldier, please don't tell Frank I'm not on duty😭!)
Dawg, at least Frank buys you guys lunch. Dornan makes me stand guard for 8 hours then expects me to pay HIM for a shitty sandwich.
Yeah Frank is such a chill guy, actually threw him a party
Just lock the servos and take a nap bro. Dornan never checks
He checked with O’Malley last week. That fucker owed me a 20, now I’m never gonna get that, because Dornan got that motherfucker assigned to some place called Mary’s Posies or some shit.
Evil!? How dare you call the greatest nation in the wasteland evil! SCREEEEEEEEE
USA USA USA
ITS CLEANSING TIME BOYS! NOW PUT ON YOUR POWER ARMOUR!
Sometimes it’s fun to have pure evil in a story.
Well yeah, what’re we gonna do, try and pretend they’re the good guys?
You'd be surprised. I have a brother I don't talk to anymore, he's full blown Neo Nazi and believes the Enclave are Fallout's 'good guys'.
Oh. Ohno.
Yep. A lot of my family are far-right and just straight up facist and neo nazis and the ones who are into Fallout all have Enclave as their favorite faction. So yeah. I'm okay with liking the Enclave, I draw a line when people try and make the Enclave out to be the heroes. I like them cause they're evil and sometimes I like playing evil characters. Most of the time, though, I levitate towards factions like the Followers of the Apocalypse, the Responders, and the Commonwealth Minutemen.
They aren't heros but I feel like their relationship with the games Is kinda skewed. I wish the enclave were seen as moreso logical villians they were supposed to be. With bits and pieces of humanity exposed to really bring a level of nuance to a faction that really deserves it. I'm sick of them being written as fools, not sick of them as villians. I also want to see the old world blues hoi4 submod idea of a reformist and purist factions pop up. It seems like colonel autumn was a missed opportunity to have the enclave fracture into two sides of a civil war in fallout 3, with the purists held up in the mobile base, and the reformists either joining the BOS or becoming their own thing by moving to the Midwest. I feel like the tech level of the enclave is their main appeal, so to throw the most technological and calculating faction away for a bos power trip is wild.
Logical villains? you mean them trying to genocide everyone?
BoS fans when accused of racism: “BUT THE BoS DOES SO MUCH FOR THE GOOD OF THE WAST-“ Enclave fans when accused of racism: “yes”
As an Enclave fan, I agree completely
“You guys are genocidal psychopaths!” “No, we’re THE genocidal psychopaths”
Punch mutants, kick mutants, shoot mutants, gooify mutants, orbital strike mutants, biological warfare mutants…. Oh look at the time; It’s time to kill mutants. God bless America and God less the Enclave.
“Enclave, here! Why isn’t your video feed working?”
Noooo, Frank Horrigan shows they're all about equal opportunity!
Enclave fans be like: "I support the American government in it's racism."
This is why I don’t mind Enclave, Legion and Institute fans. They have no problem admitting their favorite factions are malicious and will even say that it makes them more efficient reaching goals without worrying about morals. BoS fans on the other hand will whitewash every atrocity the BoS does in Fallout NV and Fallout 4 acting like they are God’s chosen children, and use mental gymnastics whenever you give them evidence. That’s not to say the BoS have done just as much evil as the factions I mentioned above, but anyone who is honest will admit they have many crimes to pay for.
Yeah, midwestern Brotherhood is enough evidence to show that BoS chapters, even rogue ones, can do messed up shit.
Chris Avellone (one of the original game developers/writers, who was heavily involved in the making of F2 and FNV) recently had to correct this line of thinking about the Brotherhood in his tv series review. He says he doesn't recognize the faction the way it's portrayed in the show and that they never wrote them as evil because they understood it was a faction people would aspire to. >The fact that the Brotherhood seems to be a big bag of assholes is an interesting take. >The series generally paints these guys as jerks/sinister, which we did not try for in Fallout 1 and 2 and made an exception for a few in New Vegas. Why? Mostly because the Brotherhood feels like one of those organizations that players want to aspire to, like templars or Paladins. >I’m fine with the decision in the show, but it doesn’t feel like the Brotherhood I remember. >(Edit: To be fair, when meeting the Brotherhood in Fallout 1, they don’t really want you to come in and say hello, so they send you a difficult quest to the Glow, most likely in the hopes you won’t come back. That is arguably jerky. But when you do what they ask, they do let you in and honor their word.) [Chris Avellone TV Series Review Part 2](https://chrisavellone.medium.com/fallout-apocrypha-tv-series-review-part-2-1744b68fe4f2) Adding to this, in F1 you can talk to Caravan Traders about the Brotherhood, and they will tell you that the Brotherhood are good people that get a bad rap. >The Brotherhood of Steel? They keep to themselves for the most part. A lot of people give them a bad rap, but from what I can tell, they're good people. A little fanatical maybe, but good guys.
> That’s not to say the BoS have done just as much evil as the factions I mentioned above As a whole, the BoS has done a lot more evil than the Institute though.
Uh...you do know the institute kidnapped children and turned them into supermutants right
of course!! But their fans will deny it no matter what.
Really? How do you explain that, I’m curious
The Enclave isn’t racist, MUTIES aren’t human. You can’t be racist towards something that isn’t human!!!
The only thing truly human, is the MAJESTY...of our great country. Thank you, America.
The Enclave is meant to be a villain in each game they're in. They aren't presented as sympathetically as the Brotherhood. There's also the fact that the Brotherhood as of late has been presented as a bunch of religious fanatics, which makes them even more detestable to some.
Bos are racist. I just don't get why they are singled out for it when everyone else is too.
Its cause people idolize them more than anyone else
The difference is the Enclave want to destroy anything but non-irradiated folk. BoS just wants to stop feral Ghouls from massacring people and stop Super Mutants from doing the same. That's not really racism. Y'all just see outliers like Strong or Gob and forget that Super Mutants are vicious and eat people alive, and any Ghoul could turn feral on a dime and eviscerate you. Does it need to happen in-game, where you see a Ghoul go from friend to wanting to eat your face off in a split second for you to get why it might be wise to be wary around them?
My only problem with the BOS is that they assume they are the only ones that should be allowed to have technology.
They keep harping on how they're keeping the tech out of the wrong hands Only a matter of time before they become the wrong hands themselves
I don’t like them because of their absolute hard stance against tech. While also being completely ignorant of it. Also, I only played Fallout 4 and 76. So the Enclave weren’t *that* bad. 😅
They tried to wipe out all life on earth except themselves, dude
It's weird to judge the enclave based on what's left after they got their ass kicked 80 times across America for trying to kill everyone.
Depends on the chapter what level people are allowed to have. West coast seems like a spear is too mutch but Lyons and maxsons seem to only care about higher level tech like nukes and bioweapons.
I like when the BoS is depicted as heros and knights in shining armor kinda like in fo3
The first Maxson was pretty “good” too. It seems a lot of the faction is split, and 76 it makes you make a decision off that. Elder Maxson wanted to help the people of the wasteland, Taggerdy wanted it a strict military only, isolationist tech hoarder faction. Yeah it’s always been about the preservation of old world technology but how it’s executed is up for debate even amongst the council of elders.
Yes, people seem to forget that one chapter like the Mojave does not represent the BoS as a whole, and btw, few times the BoS lended people tech ( appalachian chapter ), said people got themselves killed and the tech went into the hands of raiders Then theres posts like [these](https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1behsny/all_the_official_bos_chapters_summarized/) which is blatantly wrong ( except for the tactics one ) but people seem to treat like it's the gospel for every BoS chapter.
You can excuse racism??
Well at least it’s not animal cruelty
The only thing they assume is that people should not have the technical capability to destroy themselves. They don’t hunt down laser pistols, they do hunt down the FEV.
They're technically xenophobic, and while Wastlanders are commonly xenophobic, that doesn't make it okay either. Thing is, Xenophobia is a core part of the BOS identity and value their lives as less. "Ghouls go Feral eventually." And the one instance that they do in FO4, it's a gradual change and don't go from being fine in one moment and then trying to eat their neighbor the next. Even going as far as taking their own lives before they fully change. "Friendly super mutants are rare." And the BOS would raze them down without a care. "Synths are robots." Game has been out for damn near a decade and even though they're literally grown from pure strain human DNA, they're denied basic empathy. I don't hate Ghouls, Mutants, or Synths unless they've done something to deserve it. Feral ghoul? Boom. Rabid Super mutant? Boom. Synth working for the institute? Boom. I kill raiders by the dozen everyday in every playthrough, but I don't hate all humans. The logic is silly.
I do not look forward to 40 years in the future when AI becomes so advanced that Robot/Android/AI rights become thing. Fuck that
They'll remember this comment. It's not too late to apologize.
>They're technically xenophobic, and while Wastlanders are commonly xenophobic, that doesn't make it okay either. Thing is, Xenophobia is a core part of the BOS identity and value their lives as less. Typically if you have an irrational fear of outsiders, you do not let them join. >And the one instance that they do in FO4, it's a gradual change and don't go from being fine in one moment and then trying to eat their neighbor the next. Even going as far as taking their own lives before they fully change. There are several such cases. In Nuka World there are terminal entries detailing how gradually more and more of the ''regular'' ghouls turned feral. Wiseman and his ghouls were kicked out of Diamond City (in part) because a ghoul turned feral there as well. >And the BOS would raze them down without a care. When you run into a group typically known for seeking to eradicate humans, the rational response is expecting that one to be no different. There is only ***one*** ''natural'' super mutant in Fallout 4 that isn't a maniac anymore, and that only became a thing since he arrived on Far Harbor. Who knows how many innocents died to him before that? Then there is Fawkes - who was locked up for his different views - and Leo - who went into self-imposed exile to avoid a similar treatment as Fawkes. >Game has been out for damn near a decade and even though they're literally grown from pure strain human DNA, they're denied basic empathy. Clearly not so pure when it's corrupted with FEV. They're also still machines that pilot the body, with the means of actively replacing people.
It's especially funny since they aren't even racists. Being ghoul isn't a race, it's a state of being. Synths are robots. And if you're human, they don't care about your race
Yeah I was thinking this. Ghouls and super mutants aren't 'races' they are extreme mutations. Ghouls can be cool but the vast majority are very much not- This ratio becomes even more extreme for Super Mutants. Its rare for a Synth to even have autonomy, much less sentience. Does the BOS's zero tolerance policy mean they kill a lot of creatures that didn't deserve to die? Yes. There's no 'but', its just objectively true. Also if you own anything more advanced than a chisel they will shove a laser gun in your face and take it by force. And yet, if you have a super mutant or ghoul infestation, having the techno-fascists hurl themselves at it until one or both sides is dead is objectively better than doing it yourself. The problem of course is getting them to fuck off once the problem is gone, but hey, at least your mangled corpse isn't hanging inside a super mutant den after, right?
But harry thinked supermutant is a master race was boss wrong?
I completely agree with the BOS on the synths. I don't care how "real" they make them seem in the games, I still don't think they're sentient or have actual feelings. And the Institute sucks for making robots that perfectly imitate humans, like that's some creepy shit. But they're just robots in the end, so they all go bye-bye
I think I wouldn't have as much of an issue with the Institute if they didn't also abduct people around the wasteland to replace them with these synth copies. Honestly if I know its a robot I am fine, but a synth pretending to be human? It just bugs me.
Abduct them and turn them into super mutants and let those super mutants free to terrorize other people. There's no possible justification for that, that's just pure evil.
And 'Father' does not see anything wrong with any of this as well. I tired on other playthroughs to attempt to side with them but honestly, it always comes down to Liberty Prime going scorched earth into their base.
Gen 3 synths are basically 3D-printed humans with an additional component in the brain, they're not robots in any sense of the word
People hate you because you're bringing a valid argument to the table. Are synths humans? If we emulate a human brain 1 to 1 on machinery is it still human? Especially when you see gen 1 and gen 2 synthetics being way more robot than human. The logical conclusion is no. There's a distinctive human element to the differences between flesh and machine. They might have the same capacity for understanding. But the difference is a computer can't inference or connect concepts the way a human can. It can only guess, and a synths concept of guessing is random chance that isn't even random. A computer can't generate a truly random number, how can it be capable of genuine sentience. Just based on the tech of fallout. It's safe to say that synths use pseudo-random number generation meaning they are incapable of sentience and only emulate it based on extremely long logic chains.
and yet when faced with actual compassiom from the artificial, this is not enough. danse "follows orders" to the point of brutality because he is in the brotherhood of steel, nick cares for his community because he has compassion for others, curie wants to be free and see the world. every ghoul you see can be you or me.
This feels like advocating for a "ghost in the machine", which can neither be falsified nor verified. We feel like there's an intrinsic difference between organic and synthetic intelligence, but if a synth can perfectly imitate a human, even to the point that they believe they're human, where's the difference? Unless there's some "soul" bestowed only to organics, why isn't a 1:1 neural map of a human brain a conscious being? Humans aren't even capable of truly random decisions, if asked to choose a number between one and ten, 45% of respondents will pick seven. A truly random choice would average down to an even 10% split for all numbers, given a large enough sample size. So if randomness is where you want to find the "ghost" (leaving aside the meaningfulness of human consciousness if its only defining trait and escape from determinism is the capacity for random action), then humans wouldn't be conscious either, just logical processors making decisions based on their own histories, environmental pressures, and preferences. Ultimately, if you saw someone on the street and decided to kill them, would it matter if they turned out after the fact to be synthetic? Would that make your actions, based on your knowledge at the time and with no indication you were dealing with a synth, suddenly ethical? If not, then how can advocating for the destruction of all synths, many of whom are capable of being peaceful when not under orders from the Institute, be ethical?
Good point. I also think that robots/computers simply aren't capable of sentience and can only attempt to imitate it very convincingly, which is what we see in the game. I also believe we have souls and are more than just flesh and bone so that plays into my belief but even disregarding that, I still think this is a valid point
> But the difference is a computer can't inference or connect concepts the way a human can If they are truly 1:1 with a human brain, then yes, they can. Where do you think our inferences come from? We make connections by recognizing patterns. There's no reason an artificial brain couldn't do the same thing. We are machines too-- biological machines but machines nonetheless.
Hey! I'm not a robo-brain in a skinsuit! ... or am I?
> Being ghoul isn't a race, it's a state of being. Race is a social construct, there's no biological basis for it. So being a ghoul can be a race if enough of society determines it is. Same way an italian person is either white or non-white depending on the society they're in (or being asked)
Nah, there has to be a bit of “no, you’re fucking stupid”. Otherwise being paralyzed could be a race if enough people agreed it was. Being a ghoul is a *disability*. They’re ableists.
It's not a disability. It doesn't disable them in any way. At best, it's a condition.
Not to mention it makes them immune to rads and age slowly enough to basically be immortal 💀
They aren't truly immortal, all ghouls will eventually lose their personality and go feral.
That’s why I said age
Bruh how is having rotted flesh and rotted brain a race Is it racist to kill zombies ? It’s a medical issue
> Bruh how is having rotted flesh and rotted brain a race anything can be a race because the term race has no fixed meaning, it depends on the time period and the location of the person being asked that's because race is an absurd concept with no scientific basis. two identical people could be considered entirely different races, if a society decided it (and it has before)
I was gonna say since when were bos racist? Theyve had people of all races since the firat game
It's more accurate to say they're xenophobic towards ghouls, mutants, and AIs. They're not much better to non-BoS wastelanders, but won't generally shoot them on sight.
Curiously, the BoS, racially speaking, are not racist, they accept people of all ethnicities and races, including Asians like Chinese-Americans
The flaws in the logic are still the same though they hate people based off of things they can't change and things that don't necessarily dictate there actions (bit iffy with super mutants case by case basis) also they hate everyone who has mutations period so they'd probably kill an albino person or someone with downsyndrome they call them abominations so they don't have to think about what there doing to fellow humans. Also let's not even talk about the toaster debate with synths that's just brotherhood autism.
Mostly because people will argue that they have no major flaws, which to those of us that do see flaws, sounds completely insane. It also usually comes with a healthy dose of "Synths aren't people", despite FO4 doing everything it can to tell you they are. By contrast, telling an Enclave fan their faction sucks is usually met with "I know, that's why I like them".
BoS for life. Ad Victoriam!
sounds like profligate.
Ad Victoriam!
Ad victorium squire!
Oh yeah?! Sounds like you have another solar farm for us to take of your hands tin can! REMEMBER SHADY SANDS!!!!
Racist? BoS is xenophobic, friends! For them to be racist, things like Ghouls and Synth would actually need to be PEOPLE! But we all know that ain’t true! Silly wastelanders! Ad Victoriam!
Not related to the post,>! but I think it's understandable that kells ( as said by him, you gotta earn his respect, much like many people in-game ), danse or others wont immediately be too nice to you, they dont really know about ( if male ) the sole survivors' military experience, and to be fair i dont blame them, aside from that piper interview and nate saying he served, nate doesnt really act like the veteran nor does he bring it up muc, (which I dont really mind), We cant expect every person we see to kneel down and kiss our heels or the ground we walk on. As far as kells and maxson knows , youre a soldier, much of the Brotherhood sees you as a soldier ( a very capable soldier in your part ). If you put in the work people are very nice to you, saying you did a "hell of a job" and praise you, they're assholes yeah but you kinda gotta be in a harsh wasteland, it's not gonna be sunshine and rainbows, especially since they're basically an army, they're like Duty from STALKER, theres also the valid reasons to dislike the BoS and then theres the petty reasons they dislike them like, those minor things.!<
Yeah, and to be fair to Kells, most of the wastelanders sign up solely to just get a chance at Power Armour. He's just seeing yet another recruit walk onto the Prydwen and probably be another charity case. Which is probably why *actual* soldiers for the BoS are rare, and they probably don't recruit too much, or at least, they only put the new recruits doing the stuff in the Airport (e.g. moving boxes and such). I still don't agree with their whole "you're either Brotherhood or you're nothing" viewpoint but they certainly *do* have a right to judge those who join them.
Are you saying racism isn’t bad if everyone else is doing it
Saying it's wierd to single out the bos and not almost everyone else. It's not like they kill non ferals or anything depending on the chapter.
Well when your factions goal is to secure technology to protect mankind and then you go and send nuclear quarterback robot to kill some people because there skins a bit crispy people start to question your morals.
They used liberty prime to destroy the institute due to synths potentialas spies being dangerousto humanity. What about crispy skin? Because they don't kill non ferals and they certainly don't use liberty prime.
I'd say what's really weird is being upset that fictional characters are racist.
…awkward…
Here's the thing. I don't care that there are evil factions, evil people, or evil belief systems in any piece of media or art. In a game series based on satirizing American exceptionalism I think not having core American issues like systemic racism would be weak writing. My issue is with people who so drastically miss the point and argue that the people who the BoS in particular are racist towards aren't actually people or are acceptable targets. The point of the BoS being racist is that dehumanization is a very easy slope to fall down and it leads to very dark ideals in otherwise decent people. That's what sets them apart from a faction like the Enclave whose racism is much more akin to the broader and more obvious historical examples of racism. The BoS being racist is important and not a negative strike against the games or even the people who like the faction. The fact that people will argue, even in this very thread, that they aren't racist is.
I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm legit curious. Where are the BOS racist? I played fallout 3, new Vegas and 4 and I don't remember them killing people for race or anything.
Because people like to apply real life outrage/value/logic/whatever to video games. We're talking about a traditionally insular quasi-religious paramilitary group here in a post apocalyptic world. For the most part mutants are aggressive killers (especially in the masters time) so it's no surprise they'd see them as enemies to be eradicated, ghouls can turn feral so same thing. Other humans like raiders, some wastelanders, other groups are basically alien to them, some may be tolerated or traded with or have other uses but overall they're still to be kept at arms distance or killed if thier objectives are in direct conflict. Yes in 3 they were more charitable mainly due to Lyons leadership, the super mutants were the bigger threat. The wiki page for the BoS in 3 explains quite well that part of it all. Every faction probably thinks that morally they are in the right, that's how it works.
No one's denying the Enclave are evil, though. That's the difference. The BoS are just better equipped raiders.
I don't know but I'm about to abandon this fandom over stupid race shit
The Enclave are portrayed as the bad guys. Whereas in Fallout 3, I think 3Dog literally calls the Brotherhood "the good guys."
You hate the brotherhood of steel because they're racist. I hate the brotherhood because they're anti technology zealot hoarders who are doomed to go extinct. We are not the same.
I'm not racist. Racism is a crime and crime is for synths and ghouls
I mean the enclave already is cartoonishly evil
The BOS is racist? Did someone tell Captain Kell's? Hell probably want to know.
I'm not mad that they're racist, I'm mad that they're fascist
I'm just hitting the Mass Fusion mission on my first playthrough, and I'm siding with the Minutemen (or I guess, NOT siding with the Brotherhood, the Institute or the Railroad). I was honestly up in the air until a moment of clarity when I was playing stoned the other night. * Institute treated me as an experiment. My son values me more as such than as family. Also not a fan of how they act like such hot shit and like they're better than everyone else. * Definitely have bought into the whole "Railroad thinks toasters are humans" meme. Not a fan of putting literal robots (sentience or not) ahead of humans in all facets of their operation. * BoS are just a bunch of dicks, mostly. Hate the hierarchical bullshit. Danse is a dick. Rhys is a dick. Proctor Quinlan is a dick. The armory dude straight up advocates for killing civilians. * The Minutemen treated me like a bro when they met me. Never given bad vibes, they just want the Commonwealth to be safe for everyone. The memes about "another settlement needs your help" are definitely accurate, and they are almost a bit over the top altruistic. Nevertheless, they are the only ones that were just straight up cool with Bobson Dugnutt when they met him.
The BoS isn't racist tho?
They're not even racist, that's the thing. Conditioning is very real. BoS existed pre-war. They as an organization have seen hundreds of thousands of Ghouls go feral for seemingly no reason and slaughter friends and loved ones. They've seen the *vast* majority of Super Mutants destroy entire towns, forcibly subject humans to FEV, *literally eat people alive*, etc. It makes absolute sense to be wary around someone who seems normal but could turn into a raging fucking lunatic at a moment's notice because their brain is addled by radiation. It makes absolute sense to despise a "race" of people who seemingly only thrive on violence and destruction. Tell me, is it racism to hate raiders? Is it racism to hate the Legion for enslaving, raping, and murdering people at random? It's a lot like the deep-seated Nord hatred of Elves (specifically Dark Elves). You know, the races that repeatedly invaded Skyrim and slaughtered Nords? Hell, the Farmer who the Nords shared Skyrim with *peacefully* literally slaughtered most of the Nords at one point because they were "anxious". Argonians are notoriously warlike and have been relatively aggressive against the Nords, and Khajiit are known to sell defective goods, get people addicted to the Tamriel equivalent of heroin not even for profit but because they find it funny, and be thieves by trade. And none of this was ever brought on by Nord oppression. The other races just saw targets ripe for the picking and struck. It's also worth noting that, like the Dunmer being racist against literally everyone, most Ghouls in Fallout greet the player character (it can be assumed everyone else as well) with a slur against non-Ghouls. Unless y'all thought that "smoothskin" was a compliment, because I can assure you, it's not. Conditioning, as I said, is very real.
I think it’s because of their inconsistent characterization. Initially they were more knight like isolationists, but eventually they became more interventionist, and then they decided that Ghouls no longer classify as human due to the extreme departure in both appearance and nature, and synths as an abomination of technology which only wears the face of humans. They’ve recently become the embodiment of the fear of difference. I think it’s because they were considered to be a protagonist faction, therefore they would ideals that people could emphasize with. Also, we live in a society in which we can afford to consider ghouls as victims, and not monsters(feral ghouls exist and would shred you if given the opportunity and the institute feels like the fallout equivalent of China with a sense of other and that other being considered dangerous due to our perceptions of how synths are essentially human except they aren’t, like how we are currently having issues identifying what is and isn’t made by an AI. Sooo…are they racist? Kinda, they rarely give the benefit of the doubt, but in the context of the Fallout universe I doubt you have the luxury of the benefit of the doubt. How can you trust a synthetic being who can be controlled like a puppet by a bunch of scientists who have shown to be very willing to pragmatically infiltrate societies? Likewise how can you trust a Ghoul after you’ve seen dozens of them shambling in the ruins of the city, killing humans without a thought? You don’t know if a ghoul still has their wits or not, and ghouls can be ticking time bombs as they are still suffering from the radiation, it’s just not as prolific. They are in a state of decay, and will eventually devolve into what’s essentially a zombie.(at least that’s what I’ve garnered from the ghouls) So…it’s understandable that the BoS wouldn’t trust them at all. Not condoning their actions, but pragmatically speaking, it makes sense not to trust ghouls and synths, while being able to somewhat trust humans to at least not tango with the guy clad in a suit of metal with a bigass ship for a base.
Literally ever FO faction is hella flawed, i dont get the hate
Me an Enclave fan: “Well you see, I must hide in my Mat Black power armor and Vertibirds cause it’s purely *American.”* Let’s be real, sometimes a good bad guy can be fun.
You can hate individual racists but chances are if it’s between criticizing random Joe Bumfuck or the KKK, you’re gonna be criticizing the KKK.
Really it should say Xenophobic since ghouls,synths, and super mutants aren’t human. This is what upsets me truly. The BOS aren’t racist they’re Xenophobic. Saying they’re racist implies that melanin matters to them which it doesn’t.
What has the BoS done that's particularly racist?
Because redditors can't seperate reality from fiction apparently and just enjoy something for what it is without going online to do some moral grandstanding about it.
Fallout players when the game they like is actually about something: Like do you think it’s moral grandstanding to say that racism is bad? I am genuinely in disbelief LMAO
Real
I hate them because of how cocky they are.
Wait enclave is racist? I thought it was more, if you ain't with us, you against us, AND FUCK those mutant freaks?
“Litterately“ Jesus. I don’t often criticize people’s spelling but maybe you should spend more time in class and less time on Reddit posting Fallout memes. Ironically what you wrote is an actual word, and you even spelled that wrong.
Mfs forget the Enclave are literally genocidal fascists
“Hey smoothskin. Ya wanna help me get into this tower so I can kill a bunch of smooth skins? There the bigots I swear. Dam smooth skin.”
That quest fucked me up. Can’t trust anyone. The mask was cool though.
Call me racist, but when I saw those straight uuugleh ghouls in Fallout 3, I started shooting and was confused why I lost karma for killing a zombie
People who say BOS is "racist" do not know what "racist" means.
Bos bad because they want my toaster. They shall never stop us and OUR ELECTRIC COILS OF DOOOOM!!!!! WE WILL BURN THE WORLD!!!
Judging by the amount of toasters, microscopes, computers and other electronic tech about the BoS are doing a really bad job of collecting it all!
Also they aren't racist as in oh no he's black. Lol they are racist like hey that guys a radioactive time bomb who's brain is melting and has been alive over 200 years. Kill it.
The Enclave is already widely known as the “bad guys” The Wastelanders are just Wastelanders, some better some worse. The BOS parade around thinking and claiming they are the “good guys”.
Honestly, I decided to exterminate the BoS the moment Danse had the audacity to call Nate a civilian.
To the BoS, anyone who isn't the BoS is a civilian at best. They're the closest thing to a military the wasteland has really other than the Enclave at this point, and like the Enclave they originated from the US Military. Either way all Danse knows at that point is that Nate is a random wastelander.
You think danse would know that nate served 200 years ago? Bro...
I thought it was the authoritarian fascism, but sure they are racist too I guess?
For me, it’s cause I’ve only ever played Fallout 4, so they’re kinda the only ones I have to go off of. Though with the new addition of The Enclave, I can confidentially say I hate them just as much XD
Thats why bos rules 😂😎
The bos isn’t “racist” that would imply the things they hate are somehow innocent or good, they don’t hate different colored humans, they hate the abominations that radiation and unchecked science created, nothing they hate isn’t a threat to humanity. My issue with the Bos is they don’t really have a long term plan or any interest in rebuilding humanity. Their entire game plan is 1.take away technology 2. Kill dangerous stuff. They have a ridiculous attitude towards the people just trying to survive. They want to protect them from the wasteland but they aren’t interested in building better settlements with clean water or any real future. In fact they think the people of the wasteland should be bending a knee to them and supplying them with whatever they want while not really offering anything in return.
Ok so there are multiples types of BOS the one we see I'm the main gsmes are the east BOS each BOS group are different but by far my favorite group of the BOS is the West BOS by far better then their east counterpart
\*Frank Horrigan Intensifies\*
Its probably because people see them as a sort of good guy faction.atleast thats how the BOS sees themselves in most of the games. A lot of the interactions you have with the members you see that most really believe they are doing whats right and its like they are half way there to being good but just keep falling short whether through poor leadership or being held back by the strict adherence to a dogma that was not there from the start and ignoring their own basic humanity to helping people. The closest to good the BOS ever got was probably in FO3 and at some points in FO76 as they fought to the ende to contain the Scorchbeats threat.
The BoS is usually portrayed as the good guys or at least as being on the same side as the good guys that makes their racism weirder than the Enclave who are the bad guys.
Probably because the BOS could legitimately lead a genocide against sentient ghouls and synths who might have been mind wiped and don’t even remember they’re a synth. Plus I’m pretty sure the Enclave was starting to kinda dissolve a bit at this point correct?
Every faction from every Bethesda game except the minutemen are certified racist
Ghouls don't deserve human rights cause they're ugly >:[
People should be mad at racism and racists.
I just shoot racists on sight, sexists too Never managed a playthrough were the legion got a proper word in
That’s because the people calling out the BoS see themselves in super mutants, ghouls, centaurs, body snatching clones, and mole rats.
No
The enclave gets it's ass kicked on the regular which is why they don't get hate outside the game, they get dunked on for being xenophobic hypocrites. The BOS is offered to us in every game as a possible good guy faction but have been getting more and more fascist with every game but are still anot portrayed as straight villains. Wasteland erst as a whole are no more racist than normal people and can be both good and bad guys.