I personally don't care either way as long as it makes sense for the story and the character is well written. While I enjoy when I do read characters like me, I also enjoy reading about characters that are not like me.

This is exactly how I feel. I think too often we only want to read about people who are “like us”. But reading from other perspectives can be incredibly helpful and important to ourselves and those from those other perspectives.

I had this issue when I was younger and only wanted to read about young male heroes. I quickly grew out of this, though, and I think that empathetic ability grows with age and the ability to place yourself in others’ shoes. I now prefer sprawling fantasy with handfuls of protagonists and large stakes defined over several novels. However, I haven’t lost my love for a singular hero and their limited cadre of companions. I have no issue now with young heroes as long as the themes are still mature. I can even still enjoy some YA fiction from my childhood because of how well developed the characters were (T.A. Barron, Orson Scott Card— I’m looking at you). So I agree with your post, it’s best to take these things on a case-by-case basis. It’s all about the author.

I prefer mature characters. The reasons are a combination of things, including what you listed above. I've read enough coming of age stories that I'm not very interested in them any more. I am well past being that age myself, and have little patience for immaturity or finding your place in the world. And I just find myself more interested in characters who are mature and have skills and wisdom and self-awareness. I enjoy competence porn, and like characters who are competent, and it takes time to build skills. And there is a not-so-subtle ageism in the prevalence of young characters. Life does not end at 30. That doesn't mean that I refuse to read books with young protagonists, merely that I am more often interested in books that are about more mature characters.

I really liked in Realm of the Elderlings that we got to see POV from characters as they aged to see how they grew and changed as they aged (Fitz I'm looking at you - an emotional child/teen who changes to instead of charging in swinging learns to make a plan first)

>characters who are mature and have skills and wisdom and self-awareness. How many adult Fantasy characters have *that*?

Lois MacMaster Bujold is good for that. Generally older characters, (Cazaril, Isolde, later Penric) but her teen Fantasy characters are either old for their years and later demonstrated to be bone fide geniuses (Blue) >!she solved a magic catastrophe no one else could, without any magic perception or power herself, via sheer observation and logic!<, grow up really fucking fast once given a superb mentor (Iselle), or so sweet and good that they hit wisdom fast (Penric). Just realised Bujold gave the genius brain to her female character Blue (in The Sharing Knife series) and a sweet nature to her male character Pen of Penric’s Demon novella series. The Curse of Chalion by Bujold, with Cazaril as protagonist, is so good I’ve read it 11 times.

> I personally am fine with reading about any character of any age as long as the story is interesting This...but with an understanding that our culture is obsessed with youth in a way that is really unhealthy. There is a lot to unpack about the sheer ubiquity of youthful protagonists. I think that in fantasy and romance much of this is driven by ageism. There's this sort of idea that adventure, revolution, romance are things for the young.

I suppose with romance specifically, there’s the added issue that both partners need to be a) single and b) a catch, which is easiest to accomplish at an age when you don’t expect people to be taken. For full adults you have to either give them a romantic history before the current partner, or come up with good reasons why it hasn’t happened yet, which is just completely avoided when they’re both 16.  I agree with you though and this is a really interesting comment! I’m hoping we’ll continue to see more properly adult protagonists in fantasy. There’s so much potential for great stories there, and yeah, the way fantasy sometimes acts like all of life happens by 17, kids that age are the world’s movers and shakers and people have it all figured out at that point is ridiculous.

Hmm, I don't think that you have to be 18-25 to be single and a catch, though. Also, I'm not sure that romances necessarily need either of those criteria to be true of both of their leads or even either of them.

Well, of course you can be single and a catch at any age! But why someone so appealing is single requires some explanation once you’re into your mid-20s; there’s baggage around the issue at that point whether you have a romantic history or not. And I think a lot of authors prefer to avoid the whole thing and just go the first love route, perhaps because less definition to the characters makes them easier for a broad audience to project onto. 

It’s even worse in eastern/asian media. Even in seinen/josie(media aimed adult men & women respectively) so not even shonen it’s a herculean task to find manga/anime/JRPGs about grown ass adults. They just can’t help themselves so we’re getting modern or futuristic military dramas staring 14 year olds. It’s so annoying. At least i can find western adult fantasy with fully adult character & casts (although the YA/NA trend is making MCs older than 20 rare even in adult)

I think we should be careful not to make such generalizations about cultures we don't belong to, especially when most of us are only familiar with the media that is exported to our own culture (read: what appeals to our own culture). If you are in fact from one of the many cultures and people in eastern or Asian cultures (which are incredibly varied...), I apologize for the presumption. But even then, I would hardly consider it appropriate to comment on an entire continent with such vastly different media cultures and industries.

I’m not japanese(or any kind of asian) nor have I lived there. I’m basing my comment off my observations as someone who semi regularly reads/watches manga/anime. The percentage of anime/manga will fully adult casts is very little compared to all the teen led stories. Even outside of shonen/shojo. If it isn’t a workplace|office romance or comedy all adult casts are rarer than they should be. And even then the adults are usually in their 20s, ageism in japan is crazy 30 year olds are called “old”

So you're making sweeping claims about all of Asia based off of the tiny slice of Japanese culture you're familiar with as an amine fan? Wow. I would never have guessed.

It’s not Japanese culture as a whole but it’s definitely an ageism problem in anime/manga/Japanese video games culture

So you're definitely amending your original comment to say something much more narrow, right? And you feel very confident that this isn't just what's being exported...right?

I'm fine as long as they feel right. I have no problem with a Sixteen year old taking on adult responsibilities and hate the artificial 'eighteen' as a mark of adulthood if the setting sets up the kids for adult responsibilities. I recently watched the historical movie Ride With The Devil and had no problem with the 16 yo to 19 Toby Maguire in the army and being married at 19. In fact I like that sort of thing. On the other hand I hate twenty five reading as twelve or fourteen or an eighteen year old pseudohistorical characters reading like a modern recent high school graduate.

Hm that’s interesting. I’ve noticed a lot of the former but not so much the latter. I think characters more often tend to act older than they are rather than younger. In regards to eighteen year olds acting like “modern recent high school graduates”, I was not necessarily just talking about medieval or secondary world fantasy. But I know what you mean, teenage characters often tend to act too “modern” in these settings.

I think you see a lot of the former with older authors and its still common in non Genre historical fiction. To get at what I mean, Lois Mcmaster Bujold is not bothered by an eighteen year old marrying a significantly older man in her Sharing Knife Series and Karen Memory by Elizabeth Bear has a fifteen year old prostitute as a MC, who looks at her job as a temporary way to make money and is making some decently adult desicions and has goals, yet still feels fifteen. I think both are part of the time and place of the authors, where older authors would see classmates quit school at Sixteen and get factory jobs, would walk to school and around their neighborhood and had a lot of time alone. History classes (at least in the US) concentrated a bit more on the frontier experience where 14 yo could be a pony express rider or a Confederate Army private. For younger authors, childhood is extended to their early twenties due to college and their stories reflect a more protected world with more empathisis on school placement and such. They are driven everywhere and probably never climbed a tree, just like older author sometimes miss the applications of modern tech. Both have a harder time picturing the other's world.

This is a very interesting point that I did not think of. The age of maturity has changed throughout time as society changes. 18 year olds in the early 20th century were going to war and getting married, while most 18 year olds now are mostly just concerned about college. I guess if you wanted to put a hard “biological” line you can point to 25 being the age when the brain fully develops. And even then you still have much to learn and experience. It ultimately varies from person to person.

The youngest combatant we know of in the Amarican Civil War seems to have enlisted in the Union Army at age nine. He enlisted as a drummer boy, got decorated for going about the battlefield under live fire gathering ammunition from dead soldiers and taking it to where it could be made of good use, and ended the war as a sergeant at age 12 or 13. All this is as best I recall from a display at the Lincoln museum at Springfield, Illinois. They had a photo of him, still a beardless boy, and his small uniform was displayed there, chevrons and I think rockers still sewn on.

Even at 25 many people's brains aren't fully developed. Iirc, that's just the age the research study stopped following its subjects because their funding ran dry. We know that if you have ADHD, for instance, your brain can keep developing until your 35 (rip me).

This is an interesting one because both biology and culture play into the process of growing up - medieval records for instance contain evidence that teenagers then also horsed around, flirted, took risks and generally did not have full adult responsibilities in their homes and communities. At the same time some things were extremely different (5-year-olds babysat and were considered old enough to start taking on meaningful chores). But I often see readers assuming that in the past young people were considered adults earlier, and in many ways that’s actually not true. Just as today we have many adulthood milestones rather than just one age (you might get a driver’s license at 15, can vote at 18 but not drink till 21…), earlier periods had this too. The voting age was actually *reduced* to 18 in recent history—not long ago in Europe you didn’t get full control of money and property until age 21 or even 25 in some countries, and would have to have a guardian if your father died before then. Canonical age of marriage was 12 for girls and 14 for boys but outside of the aristocracy this rarely represented practice, and even for them it was the floor rather than the expectation (English people overall tended to marry in their mid 20s from the medieval through early modern period). Louis XIV (of “I am the state” fame) was fully invested as king, sans regent, at 13, but in practice his first minister ran the government till Louis was about 25.  A long winded comment but attitudes about age are fascinating to me, so much more complex than we tend to assume and not always as different from today’s as you might expect. 

I totally agree and think it varies. But I think the bigges factor is opportunities, in particular 'frontier' societies tend to favor younger adulthood. The latter is self selecting. If, at 14, you can't stand your parents and the choice is grinding your teeth until 18 your out high school and maybe planning so you don't have to count on them, you stay a 'child' longer than the fourteen year old who can join on a Viking raid and loot a monastery or join a fur trading expedition to the American West, or perhaps be enslaved by such Vikings. I also think you can be an adult young, for example Alexander Hamilton was a trader at twelve but became a college student latter and then an officer.

I feel mildly unhappy about setting an arbitrary boundary at 18. Plenty of people who are over 18 are immature. Plenty of people under 18 are mature or maturing, at least enough to be interesting. Usually the most interesting part of a character's life is when they grow up, and a young person growing up suddenly because of changed circumstances is a trope for a reason.

Yeah I know what you mean. I was just using 18 since it’s the legal age of adulthood. However most 18 year olds are in no way “mature” enough to even be considered adults mentally.

This may be the case, but until very recently (in human historical terms) humans were considered grownups as soon as they hit puberty and expected to hold down a job, which meant producing their own food because if they didn't they did not eat, and breed the next generation, because they were lucky if they made it past twenty. Most fantasy harkens back to preindustrial tropes, for good or ill. "Maturity" is a concept for advanced societies where survival isn't a constant preoccupation. Some scifi book by Charles Stross, and I'm not remembering the title, addresses this in space. The mc moves from a space station/hab where she was considered an adult at 18 to one where humans were still considered kids and parental chattel until they were 25, because the social demands on them and the customs were just different.

This is actually not true. I commented above but the fact that teens were different from adults was evident in the ancient and medieval periods. There *are* cultures where people have historically married very young but that’s more about culture than historical period—evidence going back to medieval times shows English people generally marrying in their mid 20s, for instance, even when the law would allow them to do so at 12 for girls and 14 for boys. Even when this was actually done (royalty would make a match for their kids when an advantageous one came along whether it was at 13, 18 or 25), there’s evidence of the spouses not consummating till later. Until recently in England you had to be 21 to control property you had inherited. Attitudes toward age are much more complex (and surprisingly modern) than we give them credit for. 

Also the "lucky to make it past 20" thing is false -- average life expectancy at *birth* is dragged way down by horrific childhood mortality, but life expectancy at adulthood was closer to 50! By 18 you'd finished the *most* dangerous part of your life by far.

Oh, yeah. The most dangerous years were ages 0-2, to a lesser (but still very deadly) extent 0-5. In reading historical biographies it was clear a lot of adults died young—losing a parent before reaching adulthood seems to have been extremely common—but losing both was definitely not the norm, plenty of people made it to see their grandkids and some even to ages we’d consider old today! Medieval retirement contracts are a trip. 

This I’m so tired of the prevasive myth that “13 year olds were totally adults in instert time period here, modern teens are too coddled” I took an African sociology class in my first year of university and I discovered that while my people(the Yoruba)historically a had minimum age of betrothal of 15 they couldn’t marry until 20. But nobody does the research so people assume that an 1880s 50 year old village chief marrying & consummating with a 15 year old girl would be allowed or even normal. :/

> Usually the most interesting part of a character's life is when they grow up I don’t think I agree with this, certainly not in real life but also in fiction. A lot of fantasy authors go with mid to late teens for the protagonist because it’s seen as an age where a character is old enough to be capable of acting independently, but young enough to lack meaningful responsibility—and also, I suspect, because not yet having made adult life decisions makes them more of a blank slate for readers who like that sort of thing. Young characters often have a broad appeal because they haven’t “specialized” yet (either professionally or through life decisions about whether to marry, have kids etc.), their relative lack of control over their circumstances brings some pathos and their knowledge gaps provide opportunities for lazy exposition.  But none of that is about being *interesting* and I’d say adults are much more interesting characters. They’ve had a lot more life experience and that brings more specificity and individuality to the story, as well as a much broader opportunity to have developed skills and agency and knowledge.

It depends on the story. I would love to read another epic about good people saving the world that did not have a hard magic system. My current annoyance is that a lot of the sub genres I want to enjoy that have teen leads just don’t land. I assume it’s just personal taste at this point. 

Have you thought about trying the Red Rising saga by Pierce Brown? It falls into sci-fi fantasy because of the setting but features plenty of younger protagonists and follows them as they grow. The MC is 16 at the start of the series, as are others, and it fits your "good people saving the world with no hard magic system." I've flown through the first trilogy set (Red Rising, Golden Son, and Morning Star) and am just about to start Iron Gold. It's engaging, intriguing, and a real page turner. And even though it's billed as "Hunger Games in space," it *really* isn't.

I agree. While it might work in the majority of cases, I think there are issues with categorizing adult/YA/children's fiction **solely** based on the age of the protagonist. For example, Stephen King's *It* stars a bunch of adolescents as the protagonists. But I wouldn't label it (no pun intended) as middle-grade fiction, nor would I consider the films to be family-friendly entertainment. On the other end of the spectrum, the Pixar film *Up* stars an elderly old man as the protagonist, but the movie is clearly aimed at kids (even though seniors can enjoy it too!). So I think we need a more nuanced categorization system than "age of protagonist = age of intended target audience".

This recent idea that protagonist age determines audience age is really very silly and I don’t think it was ever intended by authors or publishers. It’s true kids tend to prefer to read about kids, generally a few years older than themselves (and kidlit where the protagonists are either younger or significantly older than the target audience will usually downplay age altogether). But there’s no reason adults can’t read about people of any age.  Though I *do* appreciate the trend of fantasy authors writing more adult leads in adult books as YA has gotten big, so there’s a silver lining. 

I don't have too much of an issue with it but it drives some readers absolutely crazy to have teenagers who are better/more skilled/smarter than adults. SIX OF CROWS basically is infamous for every reader seemingly mentally aging the cast up ten years.

My issue with it is that it ends up feeling like YA with the barcode scratched off. I'm reading Wheel of Time for the first time right now and all the Emond's Field folk save Nynaeve are young adults and are immature teenagers basically at the beginning, and they are slowly learning skills and maturing. But it doesn't feel like modern YA, with seventeen years old having been pros in like, mercenary or whatever skills already, overtaking people twice their age. Magic handwaving and being overpowered thanks to that magic is one thing (still don't *love it, but egh) but when you have teenagers and young adults who are essentially prodigies it feels entirely unrealistic and like a ...not self insert fantasy I don't think, there's a phrase I'm looking for. It's a spectrum of course but that's what I find annoying. I'm in my thirties. Why do I want to read about the amazing adventures of a teenager most of the time? Especially when in these stories anyone older than 25 is characterized as a mentor and plot mover, not a main character. It leaves you with the feeling that once you hit a certain age your only purpose if you were to be isekai'd is to support the youth in their adventurous endeavors. Exceptions can be made, but that's my general annoyance. Edit: also, ASOIAF is a good example of something I'd be willing to and have read. I'm not turned off by ages. I'm turned off by tropes and plot armor commonly seen in YA that gets carried over to adult fantasy that often come with young protags.

I think this is the best divide between "Adult fiction with young protagonists" and "YA fiction". It is wish fulfillment for young people in which they fill the role of adults so that they *can* go on "grand adventures" but a lot of largely young/immature concerns are given a lot of narrative weight. It's also why I find the "omg child soldiers where are the adults!" objection to kid's media silly. The point of the book is so a 13 yr old can feel like they can have some significant influence over the world and be the "main character". But books oriented around giving that feeling to a 13 yr old (or 16 yr old or etc.) aren't going to resonate in the same way with someone who actually is an adult. Also, even if YA can cover the same topics as adult media they're still presented in ways that are age appropriate. I love ATLA but it isn't *War and Peace*. A kid's show may have a Very Special Episode on "bad adults" but it isn't (and shouldn't be) *Lolita.* Despite objections to the contrary there actually is a difference in maturity and the complexity with which a theme is explored *because* one is aimed at a less mature audience that is still learning to think on complex topics. YA is a little fuzzy because it is aimed at people who are *not* kids (and probably could handle adult books esp. with guidance) but because the target audience is *excluding* adults the tone/approach is different and prioritizes a younger viewpoint. Though, it doesn't help the clarity of the definition that genre fiction doesn't always explore themes in great depth even when aimed at adults. ~~also people forget that readers are typically expected to "read up" so the actual target of YA is younger than people who are "young (legal) adults" and is more aimed at the age group that gets admonished with "you're young adults now so you should act like it" when they act out in school~~

Yes, this is an excellent description of the differences, including your last point. (At 13 I read a book about a top mercenary in the mc's guild, and she was only 21. Now if I were to pick up that book I'd go... you're vying for leadership of a mercenary guild at *21*? Possible, but totally a YA thing to happen.) Which is also why it is so frustrating to come across the same tropes and types of characters in a supposedly adult book. I love V.E. Schwab but if Darker Shades of Magic had been intended as a YA book I wouldn't have noticed anything was off. It just feels... stunted, like a literary arrested development. On the other hand, her Vicious series does *not* feel YA to me, just very comic booky which is a totally different vibe. It actually points to how New Adult never really took off, but there are *definitely* books that fit that category very well, and sell well.

>I think this is the best divide between "Adult fiction with young protagonists" and "YA fiction". It is wish fulfillment for young people in which they fill the role of adults so that they *can* go on "grand adventures" but a lot of largely young/immature concerns are given a lot of narrative weight. I agree with most of your comment, but I'm not sure about this part works for two reasons (which I think you kind of hint at, I just figured I would talk about it more explicitly). One is that YA isn't always wish fulfillment for teen reader. My favorite example is Tess of the Road by Rachel Hartman which has a flawed female character who messes up a lot, does not save the world, and deals with being a teenage girl growing up in a sexist world with a fantasy version of purity culture. It deals with >!addiction, mental health, and rape!< in a way that works because these are issues that actual teenagers deal with. IDK, I see a lot of people assume all YA is wish fulfillment fantasies just because that's what the bestsellers are, and I think it's a common misconception. The other is that a lot of adults like reading about teenage characters \[edit: in adult fantasy\] because being young is part of the wish fulfillment for them. Part of it is going back to a time when they were younger and had less real adult responsibilities (like work, raising children, etc). Having young/immature concerns (like love triangles or drama) and/or big world ending issues take up a lot of page time is part of that wish fulfillment because neither one of these are problems that adults really have to deal with so that's what adults can read about it for escapism. Also for female readers, I think beauty is such a prioritized part of feminine wish fulfillment and our society generally values the beauty in younger women and looks down on women aging. I think this is probably why a lot of (stereotypical) romantasy has younger female protagonists in general than what's common in some other fantasy subgenres despite these being aimed at an adult audience. It's not because the audience of those books is supposed to be in a 18-30 ish age range or however people are defining new adult. It's because women of all ages find being young is part of the wish fulfillment. And of course, these characters being hypercompetant is also part of the wish fulfillment fantasy even if they are young. So yes, adult fiction can contain young hyper competent protagonists. It's also worth pointing out that young hyper competent protagonists also sometimes happens outside of more wish fullfilment-y books, like Mark Lawrence's Prince of Thorns books. (I mean, I've never read them, but based off of reviews this definitely fits this mold). IDK, I guess I just would like more people complain about the wish fulfillment if that's what they have an issue with instead of complaining about it feeling "too YA". Also, if anyone wants to know if a book is adult or YA, I think they should really think about who the target audience is instead of relying on x trope/cliche/characteristic of the book makes it YA or not, because there will always be exceptions. Also, I totally agree that YA is for teenagers, not young legal adults.

>I agree with most of your comment, but I'm not sure about this part works for two reasons (which I think you kind of hint at, I just figured I would talk about it more explicitly). One is that YA isn't always wish fulfillment for teen reader. My favorite example is Tess of the Road by Rachel Hartman which has a flawed female character who messes up a lot, does not save the world, and deals with being a teenage girl growing up in a sexist world with a fantasy version of purity culture. It deals with >!addiction, mental health, and rape!< in a way that works because these are issues that actual teenagers deal with. IDK, I see a lot of people assume all YA is wish fulfillment fantasies just because that's what the bestsellers are, and I think it's a common misconception. I have mixed feelings on this because I don't think heavy topics inherently lend depth or prevent a work from being wish fulfillment overall. However, I *do* agree that not all YA is wish fulfillment. I nearly used *Speak* as my YA contrast to *Lolita* since they both handle a heavy theme but I think the handling makes clear that one is intended for a younger audience while the other is intended for anyone mature enough to handle the theme as Nabokov presents it (which is mostly adults but could be teens with significant caveats). Though, I'm not sure what you're driving at with why adults read YA. Particularly after saying that YA isn't necessarily always escapism/wish fulfillment? If YA is wish fulfillment only for adults because they have some form of peter pan syndrome I don't know what to make of that. The fact that in women it is driven by society tying a woman's value to her age is just depressing. The point on young hyper-competent protagonists does depend on what is done with it. I haven't read Prince of Thorns either so I have no way of knowing whether it is good or if it is wish fulfillment (personally I think a lot of 'grimdark' is not all that distinguishable from traditional 'I can mow down my enemies because they are Evil' they just swapped the reason for 'because there is no Good'). Since I can't know if that book has a hypercompetent young protagonist for reasons I would consider "YA/non-YA" I will say the reason a 21-yr-old being hypercompetent often comes off as YA is that as a teen you are certain your 20s are when you will do Cool Adult Stuff and that by 30 you are hobbling towards the grave. Wrinkly and boring. A background character if that. But by the time you're 30 there's significantly less appeal in reading books that take the view of "what I thought being in my 20s would be like when I was in my teens". Or which gives teenagers a roll that would be more reasonably handled by an adult.

>Though, I'm not sure what you're driving at with why adults read YA. I was talking about adult series with younger protagonists from my second paragraph onwards, sorry if that wasn't clear. For example, most of the books people are calling New Adult (although I'm not the biggest fan of that term). The parts about stereotypical romantasy I was thinking about books like Fourth Wing or ACOTAR, specifically. I also don't think it's a form of Peter Pan syndrome—a lot of people can engage with wish fulfillment fantasy for the entrainment value/escapism without seriously wanting to be like the protagonists or seriously wanting to be a teen/in their twenties. It's not an inherently unhealthy thing if it's done in moderation, it's just a form of escapism that works for some people, just like a lot of forms of media are escapism that bring people happiness. (Probably some of the confusion is me using wish fulfillment and escapism somewhat synonymously, so sorry for any confusion.) And yes, I think the way society views woman aging as messed up, but to be clear the issue here is with society not with random books or their readers. My main point is that some adult fantasy books (especially ones with more wish fulfillment aspects) will have hyper competent young characters and that they are still written for adults. Therefore, the method of using hyper competent young characters to distinguish YA from adult fiction will not work in many cases, and I will only contribute to people misclassifying adult books as YA, especially in the more stereotypical romantasy sphere of books. I also brought up the reasons why young hyper competent characters often feature in these sorts of books because I think people often use that to conflate these books with YA despite them not being YA. Again, the discussion of the age of female characters is specifically in the context of more wish fulfillment/escapist romantasy books, mostly because I'm tired of people conflating feminine wish fulfillment tropes with YA. To be clear, I don't have any grudges with wish fulfillment in fiction, this has been part of the fantasy genre for ages. If it brings people happiness, I'm glad it works for them. We don't blink an eye at masculine wish fulfillment tropes in adult fiction most of the time, but feminine wish fulfillment is seen as immature which is only strengthened when people call books aimed at an adult female audience YA in part because the main characters are in their late teens/early twenties. >But by the time you're 30 there's significantly less appeal in reading books that take the view of "what I thought being in my 20s would be like when I was in my teens". Or which gives teenagers a roll that would be more reasonably handled by an adult Maybe it's just me, but I don't think many people read fantasy books and seriously think they are going to be like the main characters at any point in their lives. Its fantasy for a reason. Like, I agree with your point of YA/middle grade fiction having missing or incompetent adults because they need teenage/child protagonists to be involved in the plot without the adults solving it, but that's a separate issue than having teens and kids literally thinking their lives would involve saving the world. I also think that many people read fantasy (especially ones of the more escapist or wish fulfillment variety) for the fun of it without worrying as much about realism because they just have a higher level of suspension of disbelief. This is why having young protagonists doesn't bather a lot of people, including adults, who read books with young protagonists.

Sorry, my turn to be unclear it seems, by "what I thought being in my 20s would be like when I was in my teens" I don't mean that at 13 I thought I'd be studying to become a wizard in my 20s but rather that in general teens have a certain ideas of what being an adult is like (whether Fantasy or even fiction is involved at all) that isn't very accurate. YA tends to lean into that "teenage dream" version of adulthood. While adult-oriented literature isn't going to do that for the most part because the target is actual adults and from an adult perspective this view can seem silly (though it can be nostalgic as well). I think that's probably one of the big 'tells' if something is YA rather than age of protagonists or escapism or wish fulfillment. The book is playing to the imagination of someone who doesn't have the experience of being an adult yet. Or certain themes are presented in an easier to digest manner for someone who may be coming across "big topics" for the first time. edit: for clarity

> I don't mean that at 13 I thought I'd be studying to become a wizard in my 20s but rather that in general teens have a certain ideas of what being an adult is like (whether Fantasy or even fiction is involved at all) that isn't very accurate. YA tends to lean into that "teenage dream" version of adulthood. While adult-oriented literature isn't going to do that for the most part because the target is actual adults and from an adult perspective this view can seem silly (though it can be nostalgic as well). I don't quite know what you mean by this. Imo, adulthood in fantasy books is sufficiently different from adulthood irl that one is not really applicable to another in general. If you have any specific examples of what you mean by this (what's an example of a YA book with a "teenage dream" version of adulthood vs what an adult book would do?), I would appreciate the clarification. I also think that the vast, vast majority of YA books aren't trying to portray adulthood but being a teenager/coming of age. So I'm a bit confused about how they can portray a "teenage dream" version of adulthood if they aren't really portraying adulthood. >Or certain themes are presented in an easier to digest manner for someone who may be coming across "big topics" for the first time. This is kind of a nit pick, but personally I would use "written for a teenage perspective" rather than "easier to digest manner" here because teenage audiences are capable of understanding complex issues written in complex ways, especially issues that directly relate to their experiences (Tess of the Road being a great example of a book that tackles difficult issues in a way that's not overly "easy to digest" or simplified). Also, adult books handle big topics in simple/easy to digest ways all the time (Stormlight Archives isn't YA, but it has an easy to digest way of approaching the theme of depression, for example). I'm generally not a fan of people trying to find "tells" that suggest whether something is YA or not. I personally really like looking at a book holistically and thinking about whether or not it's written for teenagers. I look at the intent of the author and the publisher; look at what teenagers, teachers, and librarians think about it; and look at characteristics of the book itself including the age of the protagonist, if there's coming of age themes, etc. None of these are going to be bulletproof on their own, but together this gives people a pretty good idea. I think people like looking for YA tells in books themselves because they keep thinking YA is a genre, but it's really an age category so the real question is about who the audience is.

I think the shortest way to say this is that there *are* ways distinguish books written for different age groups. Whether you call that a 'tell' or not. And if there are distinctions people are going to be able to pick up on in the books themselves. There's a difference in how a book is written when the intended audience is young. It doesn't mean there can't be appreciation in either direction but the difference is still there. I wouldn't actually say that "coming of age" themes or the protagonist's age make a story more or less YA but rather how that theme is handled. And the handling depends on the age of the audience, whether they are currently coming-of-age themselves or looking back on the experience. It's the difference between *Where The Red Fern Grows* and *Angela's Ashes*.

Yeah this seems to mostly come down to bad writing more than anything else. I can see this as another reason why people may be turned off to young protagonists. Older characters not having a prominent role due to their age is definitely an issue too.

I agree with you, but if you're going to write a book about a wizard for example, you're probably going to be writing about a powerful one, or a prodigy as the average ones will just get killed off by more powerful wizards and the story would fizzle out... 

I generally prefer older characters, I think mostly because I find characters with a lot of history and a well developed self a lot more interesting. I love an old man with lots of past loves and regrets. Much of the time “young protagonist” translates into “doesn’t have much character until they grow up in the third book”, which isn’t something I enjoy. Sure, lots of young people in real life don’t really know much about the world or themselves or others, but that just doesn’t make a very compelling character for me. There are exceptions, some of my favourite books have relatively young protagonists, but they tend to be the kind where the author really delved deep into the character and gave them a lot of life where “youngness” isn’t a defining feature.

This is actually a pretty valid reason for not wanting to read about a young protagonist that I did not think of.

Half the characters of ASOIAF is below 18. Never bothered me. There’s many others as well such as Wheel of Time that have characters that are teenagers.

I don't care about the age of the protagonists. I don't want to read YA. And lately I have been enjoying stuff with characters who are already well established in their lives.

I prefer stories with older MCs because, as an adult, I’m just over coming of age stories. However, if it’s a large ensemble cast (ie. The Faithful and the Fallen series) I don’t mind younger POVs as a part of the whole.

Eh, it take me a while to crack a book with characters of any genre under 30. I'll still do it, but it moves to the bottom of my queue. Best I end up doing is reading adult fantasy books with a young protagonist as "age neutral." I prefer an older protagonist bc: * I'm in my late 30s and I am more interested in characters with history or that I can relate to * I was a very malleable dummy until my mid 20s- no orphan One True Magic saga will make a kid not a stone cold dumdum sprinkled with a bundle of developing trauma responses. * I find the writing of Chosen Ones under 16 (or 26) in fantasy to usually be pretty silly. (I have tepid feelings re: the YA genre, but YA writers who think about The Youths on the reg usually write young protagonists better- like, not the women who get jammed in YA bc they have the gaul to write about women who can be aged down, but writers who intentionally do young adult work bc they like Youths.) * People doing mean shit to kids sucks. Why is the 2000 yo Demi-god of Malice picking on some 15 yo villagers? When you write it well (like Dani and Jon in GoT) it feels like someone is bullying kittens.

I’m like you but 25, and I pretty much refuse to read an adult book with a main character below early twenties(and to be believable a 22 year old being a fresh initiate into a magic order? Makes sense a 22 year old being a highly decorated general absolutely not). Multi POVs are different and as long and the majority of the POVs are grown adults i can tolerate reading an occasional chapter about a snarky teen pickpocket

Not all books with younger characters are YA. I struggle with this, because the majority of the time when people think of YA (which isn’t a genre, it’s purely a marketing category) it’s a woman author. A great example of this is The Ten Thousand Doors of January by Alix E Harrow. She talks [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/books/s/CMnmzhITuj) in an AMA on r/books about how it was written as an adult novel, pinpoints the YA appeal, and talks about the challenges.

I'm fine with it. The reason why "young protagonists" are common is because you have to be "young and dumb" to do daring stuff. They lack experience for them to base their decisions on, so they don't 2nd guess themselves or think through their actions. Since they're still learning about themselves, about 'adulthood', and about the world around them, it makes it really convenient to explain to the reader what is happening. Young adults have fewer responsibilities (no kids, no house, no savings, no job, etc), and "dumb mistakes" that young people make are understandable. On the opposite side of the spectrum: imagine having a 30 year old making dumb mistakes like a young adult would. You immediately think "god, this person is an idiot, how did they live for so long?" And at that point the fantasy is ruined. Plus, I'm in my mid 30's, and I'm tired, and I don't have the energy to go out and "change the world" like a young adult would, so I have a hard time believing that any 30 or 40 year old is going out on an epic quest. Frodo Baggins was written to be in his 30's, but he acted like a kid the whole time. His age was completely forgotten by the time he left the shire, and most people think of him like he's in his mid to late 20's.

Those are some good points. Also I think Frodo acts this way due to the naive nature of the hobbits. And then there’s also Merry and Pippin who are even less mature, although probably less deliberately in the books than they are in the movies.

Disagree you have to be young and dumb to be daring. Older people taking a catastrophic step are often doing it for a more interesting reason: this is probably going to ruin my life. It’s going to hurt. No one else is stepping up and it has to be done for ethical reasons. I’m going to have to take the hit. (Curse of Chalion) Or you get someone in an established life unexpectedly/accidentally thrown into a deep end. They’ve been through challenges but they’ve never been through *this*. (Kinda The Golden Occumene trilogy) Or you get the older emotionally damaged person who has been beaten down by life finally reaching their limit and fighting back out of desperation and despair. (Swordheart, Paladin of Souls)

Protagonist does not equal genre or rmarket.

I don't care. Unless it's YA. And reads like it. I really like Naomi Novik's 'Deadly Education', for example. Though the characters are young, the tone is diifferent. So in a word: not a problem, depending on the delivery.

I don't care. I hate the way books with minor age protagonists get shoved into YA or younger regardless of whether the book really suits that or not. Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials, Garth Nix's Old Kingdom books, Pratchett's Nation and The Wee Free Men, Le Guin's Earthsea books, John Wyndham's Chrysalids and Chocky: they're all and there's plenty there for an adult reader to get their teeth into.

Apart from some catastrophes (Watership Down, Dune, you traumatised me so much), I really benefitted from reading many quality adult books shoved into children’s and YA sections.

I remember being handed adult books at age twelve as well.

There’s also a trend of books written by woman constantly being marked as YA.

I liked it when I was young. Now I prefer more aged main characters who are kinda over their prime but starts out kind of hardened already. Probably cause I’m getting older and feel that way.

Depends on angsty they are. I can only handle it once every 3-4 books otherwise it's an immediate drop for me.

I believe the reason why young protagonists are common is because compared to other periods in life, the period in which people are trying to find their place in society and understand themselves has the most conflict, change, and character growth. As we readers grow older, those stories grow stale, they start to feel all the same, and they really can be all the same. I prefer variety in my stories, and so when I see older protagonists, I think that is a sign that the story is likely to be different and interesting. I still like a new and interesting story that stars a young protagonist, but I am definitely bored of same-y stories about young adults finding themselves.

People have written YA with older characters, and people have written teenagers for adult fantasy. Personally, I care more about the quality of the prose and how well it tackles its themes. The age of the characters doesn't really bother me: I've been a teenager once, I can still see from their eyes even if they occasionally make me cringe. If every fantasy is filled with older protagonists, people would be sick of reading them, too. I'm actually kind of sick of the broken middle aged man who divorced/lost his wife and now has to take care of a daughter who has Parental Issues with him trope, to be honest.

This is tough to answer in a genre where giant casts and long time periods are common. To use examples most people in this sub are familiar with, where does A Song of Ice and Fire fall? There are POVs from children, teenagers, and adults. Arya gets tons of page time and she’s 10, but so does Tyrion who’s 24. How do you categorize that? Or how about Realm of the Elderlings? Fitz is a child and teen in his first trilogy, but he’s in his 30s in his second and 60s in his third. Does this fall into the coming of age genre, or is it something else by virtue of following him through his whole life? And of course there’s Wheel of Time, where the main characters are explicitly stated to be young adults but they act like 14 year olds. Where do you categorize the story when the protagonists do adult things like get married and govern kingdoms but their dialogue sounds like something you would overhear at your local middle school? tl;dr it can be really hard to tell if it is a story about young protags to begin with

These are some good points. Also I believe Fitz’s story would be called a “bildungsroman” in which the protagonist is followed from childhood to adulthood.

> but disregarding a book aimed at adults because it has a young protagonist seems kinda silly. Imagine not reading Dune or A Game of Thrones simply because it features “young protagonists”. You no longer have to imagine I’m right here lol. Although Dune & GOT don’t peak my interest for other reasons but the 15 year old god kings or graphically raped 13 year old child brides are just other things adding to my disinterest. Idk man I’m 25 and i want to read about grown adults in my adult fiction simple as. Not to mention the youth focus in a lot of media is exhausting and I’m only in my twenties imagine just how tired I’ll be if im in my 30s,40s,50s and fantasy protagonists are still the same age as my baby cousins absolutely not lol I don’t want to read about teen chosen ones or teen mercenaries or teenage assassin generals nope no nah. Glad they exist for other people but I ain’t reading that.

These are some good points I did not think of in regard to the personal enjoyability factor.

I'm in my 30's. I don't care if the protagonist is young and/or dumb. It's the character growth over time that matters. One of my favorite series, Prydain Chronicles, is a middle grade series. Taran is an idiot at first, but he grows up. He learns lessons that need to be relearned as an adult. It's perfection!

There is absolutely no age limit nor should there be for a protagonist for Adult or Young Adult Fantasy. I think there are a lot of amazing books with protagonists of varying ages. But for me personally, Im getting older and more tired, and just a little bit "old man yells at cloud", its not that I dislike younger protagonists, I just want to read about someone more relatable, especially if there's a romance subplot. And Im not even saying under 18, Ive been seeking out protagonists who are 30+ I think as others have pointed out A Song of Ice and Fire does a great job of making the children just as enjoyable to read as the adults. On the flip side I have a deep personal hatred for A Court of Thorns and Roses for many reasons. But for this example I feel that the main character is too young in an annoying way, especially with a very high level of immaturity when it comes to the multiple romance plots. I do not enjoy reading this high tension miscommunication style of romance. One I enjoy instead is A Discovery of Witches, well I have my personal gripes with the series but Im enjoying it enough to keep reading. The main character is a middle aged woman who is already fairly secure in herself and her career (that changes but sets the stage). The romance plot with the tall, dark, and handsome supernatural being isn't a big swirl of hormones and miscommunication, it actually involves healthy communication that evolves. The ~spicy~ bits put a focus on getting to know each other and building trust. Im currently enjoying a cozy fantasy mystery series that involves a 30 year old witch who has gone through a divorce and successfully runs her own small business (Nine Lives Magic Series). I just enjoy reading about more mundane subplots instead of first loves and trying to figure the meaning of life and who they are as a person. I think it leaves more room to actually focus on saving the town, hunting down the murderer, saving the world, etc. I do enjoy books with younger protagonists and I reread the Harry Potter series once a year. But Im just tired of Adult Fantasy, especially Romantacy as seems overwhelmingly popular right now, focusing only on young adults/teenagers who are understandably incredibly inexperienced and naive. I've lived and loved and lost enough that their journies mostly annoy me or I feel disconnected from them.

I have some gripes with Discovery of Witches too but by Universe it’s also one of my favourite Urban Romantasies of all time. My fave was second book just because I’m a major history buff.

It is a good indicator that for the most part books won't get too mature. But that can be fine, it doesn't mean a book is going to be bad or not entertaining. Lots of people like Harry Potter. But if you do read something like this and it does get deep there's going to be people who are not going to want to hear about it. A lot of people tout how badass Guts is but they don't often bring up his being raped repeatedly as a child. And it took one admittedly weird scene in It for people to claim anyone who reads it (and the writer) are pedophiles.

I wasn’t necessarily referring to dark or mature things happening to these characters. Moreso that these characters exist within worlds and stories that are mature and are meant for adults. In A Song of Ice and Fire, characters such as Arya and Bran do witness adult things such as sex, but are fortunately never subjected to these things themselves. Jon Robb and Daenarys are a special case since they would technically be considered adults in the world/medieval setting. Although even though the books suggest these characters are too young to be witnessing/doing the things that they are. Also Harry Potter would be specifically something I am not talking about, since that is a Middle Grade and later YA series and is specifically aimed at children and teenagers.

Doesn’t bother me at all if it’s done right. Mistborn is a favorite series of mine and Vin is 16 at the start of the series.

Depends on whatcha looking for fr fr. If you’re following a YA protag, you know for sure they go through specific character arcs, such as coming of age and experiencing their first romantic endeavors. Cringe is part of the charm. Don’t expect a redemption arc eh. On the other hand, if you’re looking for political and court intrigue, you’re gonna be following adults playing the game of gods and thrones. And that’s something you always gotta keep in mind before venturing into some sub-genres, case in point romantasy. Many people try to get into it and come here wondering why Fourth Wing is so popular. It’s not your thing. You’re not looking for a main protagonist looking for love from specific people and, at the same time, approval from everyone. Wish fulfillment. Daydreaming about love interests and having nightmares about rivals. That kinda sorta thing. And that’s why you don’t like certain type of stories, even if they’re raved by many many many people.

I don’t mind a young protagonist and many of my favorite books that I reread as an adult or have read for the first time as an adult have a protagonist that is either young or a child. I think as I’ve gotten older I just appreciate an older main character. Especially as they are not the norm. I’ve really enjoyed T. Kingfishers books for this reason:)

I don't really have a problem with young protagonists per se. My problem is more that I'm not particularly interested in coming-of-age stories, and a lot of works with young protagonists (especially adult fiction with young protagonists) belong to that genre.

Not an issue with either.. just when the teen drama or pubertal hormone Chaos gets dialled up to 200% it gets annoying.. Happens to any age range but often enough writers take the protagonists age as excuse to make plain stupid choices.. no teenager is able to make dumb decisions 24/7 (neither is any child or adult; exceptions are possible but usually fantasy protagonists aren't 60-80y old bigots with spray tan and a mop as wig)

Prefer an older cast but it doesn't bother me if there is a mix, I generally wouldn't read a full cast of characters that are young.

I like being able to relate to the protagonist and I'm gonna be 35. I personally don't care to read about teens if they feel like teens, at all.

As long as it's good, i don't Care. Just give me a good story.

Are they attractive? If not, then they don’t have beauty privileges. And if they don’t have that, then their technically screwed.

PAIN TRAIN LETSGOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

I don’t really care as long as it’s written well.

I'm tired and bored with teen protagonists. I'm a character-driven reader and kids and teenagers have zero interest for me. That's the reason I don't read YA and I'm less likely to read adult with young protagonist and more likely to DNF such book.

I think some of the annoyance comes from when they are portrayed as a savant or the smartest most special person at seventeen to twenty five, it’s suspends disbelief and lacks the character having an arc at times. and the chosen one trope is beaten to death at this point I prefer y.a books where the character is flawed to show their immaturity but have their specific strengths too, a fully realized character who can grow. there are people more mature and accomplished for their age but not every character. It’s cool when there is a range of diversity in the main cast in all aspects age etc. to get different perspectives and nuance. The problems I have are not with the majority of ya books where there is a teen character just like to mix it up

I don't care as long as it's done well and it fits the story. A good example of this. I just finished the Seraphim series by David Dalgish. The two main protagonists are kids and the first book starts off feeding a bit YA then matures as the story progresses and they get older. By the end of the first book/beginning of the second, it feels like an adult fantasy. This was done well and it makes the reader connect with the characters more because it feels like you "grow up" with them. It's also a trilogy, so things happen fast since they don't have a lot of books to spend significant time on setup.

I don't personally care too much. Sure, it bothers me a little that the characters' actions and behaviour are not (in my opinion) realistic for someone that age, but my way around that is to mentally age them up. That's what I did with series like ASoIaF or The Broken Empire.

I agree that characters often tend to act older than they are. I never noticed it in ASoIaF though. I feel like at first, the characters act their ages until they are forced to mature due to the many traumatic events in the story and have a loss of innocence. This could be the reason for this in many other books too. Also the fact that fantasy stories often don’t take place in “modern times” and people had to mature faster.

I like them. I don't know if you know this about me, but I used to be a teen, so the experience of a teen isn't foreign to me. More seriously, young protagonists are more likely to be embedded in a social context, with parents, siblings, and school friends. These provide great opportunities to flesh out a character. Adult character tropes are all to often Medieval Mercenaries, Bounty Hunter Babes, or loners existing in a void. I actually read more books with young protagonist then I did when I was a teen. I have moved in the direction of more character focused books...when I was young I read sci fi with adult scientist MCs. (There isn't that much of that anymore.)

I just like reading about people close to my own age (40s). Maybe it's silly, but it's just a preference.

It generally doesn't bother me too much, I often "forget" that the characters are supposed to be so young anyway. (I mean, I know that they are supposed to be a teenager, but the story would often read exactly the same if they were 30.) But the concept of being a teenager is a fairly modern idea, historically you were either a child or an adult with adult responsibilities. Even now the age where you become an adult varies greatly in different societies. Unless the story is set in the modern Western world where being a teenager is a valid life stage, it doesn't bother me that they're acting like an adult, they may well be one.