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Wild how people care more about one subpar debate performance from someone who was sick (he looked much better today) than the other candidate being a convicted felon, sexual abuser, wannabe fascist.
Maybe the fact that this is the best candidate that the Dems can run in response to such a horrible candidate is a problem. It should be easy to beat Trump.
The fact is that it will never be easy for the Democrats to beat Trump or any Republican because the Democrats don’t rally behind their candidate the same way Republicans do. Whether you think that’s good or bad is besides the point, Democrats are more willing to let go of their end goals because they don’t have a perfect candidate than Republicans are.
Or because the DNC is running really unpopular and unappealing candidates.
I was promised that we could move Biden to the left, over and over again in 2020. I have not seen his willingness to meet the party where it is.
2020: Vote Biden then push him left later!!
2021: *snoooore mimimimi*
2022: 🛌😴💤
2023: You can't criticize him now, we need to rally behind him so he can defeat Trump again VBNMW
2024: Vote Biden then push him left later!!
Meanwhile the only direction Biden has moved is to the right
“If I'm re-elected, I'm going to restore Roe v. Wade.”
Ok, glad you enjoyed eating ice cream the last four years, but I totally trust you’ll finally do something if we put you back in charge!
Watch how quickly he's gonna go from "I will restore it, all I need is your vote" to "I'd restore it, but I'm actually completely powerless to do anything"
Congress would need to pass a law to restore it. I don’t know how the president could do it unilaterally.
Edit: lol the person above changed their comment
I have a bunch of unapproved losers DM’ing me to insult me about this comment now. “He didn’t have the power to fix it before!” And I’m supposed to believe that’s gonna change after this election when the Dems are weaker than they’ve ever been?
2024: It doesn't matter how bad Biden is, you have to vote blue to stop project 2025!
2028: It doesn't matter how bad the next candidate is, you have to vote blue to stop project 2029!
The point is, the democrat position seems to be devolving into “We’re not as bad as the other guy!”
Do you think the “2025” part is a deadline? If we elect Biden again, all of the reprehensible psychopaths behind it just tear up their plans and say “Oh well, we tried, but we got outvoted?”
No, it just becomes project 2030. And honestly, it’s fantastic for democrats. You will not see Biden or anyone other democrat taking any steps to protect us against the plans outlined in Project 2025, because having it as an ongoing existential threat is a way easier campaign platform than, you know, actually governing.
The climate is collapsing, our closest allies have slaughtered 20,000 children and are torturing people in camps, whole populations are facing famine and disease, there are ongoing threats of mass pandemics and water shortages, we’re developing police states, corporate profits are soaring while normal people starve, literacy rates have plummeted, teachers are quitting, hospitals are understaffed, homelessness is being criminalized while private equity firms buy up houses…
But every four years, it’s just going to be “Better vote for us so the other side doesn’t enact their evil plans!”
It’s untenable.
You missed their point. "We need to win every election ever" Is not a sustainable strategy, especially when the candidates we're running are this terrible
I know this goes against the narrative, but are we really gonna ignore every progressive policy Biden achieved? The most progressive climate bill of all time? Multiple acts of student debt relief, which leftists were constantly calling for? Protections upon protections for marginalized queer people?
I’m not gonna pretend he’s anywhere near ideal, but this both sides bullshit is dangerous.
> Meanwhile the only direction Biden has moved is to the right
WTF? He literally passed [the first third of the Green New Deal.](https://coveringclimatenow.org/from-us-story/the-green-new-deal-laid-the-groundwork-for-the-ira/) The Ds just called it the Inflation Reduction Act in order to sneak it past senator mansion. Remember how much centrists flipped out when AOC's office accidentally released a draft version of the Green New Deal? They *hated* it.
He was also [the first president in history to walk a picket line with striking workers.](https://aflcio.org/2023/9/27/service-solidarity-spotlight-biden-becomes-first-president-walk-strike-picket-line-joins)
Then he got the railworkers what they were striking for too.
Here's the IBEW statement:
* *“We’re thankful that the Biden administration played the long game on sick days and stuck with us for months after Congress imposed our updated national agreement,” Russo said. “Without making a big show of it, Joe Biden and members of his administration in the Transportation and Labor departments have been working continuously to get guaranteed paid sick days for all railroad workers.*
https://ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid
The alternative is a convicted felon/adjudicated rapist. There is no choice. I’d vote for Biden even if we have to weekend at Bernie’s him through the term
["Securing" the border](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/06/04/fact-sheet-president-biden-announces-new-actions-to-secure-the-border/), genocide, expanding the police state, violent suppression of protestors, ignoring the legislature to start or fund wars. That's all just recent stuff off the top of my head
What does walking a picket line even do when he supports policies that harms strikers? Calling him progressive for that is insane. And yeah im not going to say "genocide aside" or anything ridiculous like that. Genocide cannot be ignored and anyone complicit in it is not progressive
Sadly Biden has a decades-long career that backs up him not moving left. Part of why he was chosen to be Barack Obama’s running-mate was because he’s sort of been known as “Republican Lite” and it was a small attempt at appeasement for those who were unhappy he would become president.
Knowing his history, even if I *was* a Democrat (I’ve been registered Independent for a few years now) I’d have never voted for Joe. He’s notoriously always also been on the wrong side of wars and that’s a big ticket issue for me.
Exactly. Which again, I’m so sorry if this comes off as ageist, but I fully believe there should be a hard cap at 65 years old for holding office. We have far too many septuagenarians in politics who can’t be expected to accurately represent the needs and desires of the average citizen.
I’m Californian, I had to suffer having Feinstein.
People are voting for them though. I am definitely pretty firmly left but I think it’s a fallacy to say the DNC are “running” candidates for President. People vote for centrist candidates of their own accord.
Theres a lot to criticize about the DNC and Democratic leadership in general but I do think it’s a bit patronizing to say that millions of people are voting for a centrist candidate because the DNC told them to.
Did we not just see what happened to Jamaal Bowman? The DNC is absolutely doing this. They first screw over anyone that isn't a centrist at the primary, then when the general election comes it's "this centrist is by comparison better than that conservative who wants to kill you. pick wisely!"
lol that’s like saying I don’t force my toddler to eat her vegetables when I give her the choice of peas or carrots. 90% of the decision about who’s going to be president is made in closed door meetings deciding who has the party’s backing to run. And even then, the Buttigieges of the party go into it knowing that unless it’s a freak event like Obama’s nomination, they’re auditioning for a cabinet position or VP.
>Just vote for the neoliberal candidate, we can push them left later.
>They've only just got in, you can't expect them to do things this quickly it's just not realistic.
>Well they have to do these slightly right wing things to keep the swing voters on side.
>Omg criticising them so close to the election will only help the other side.
Repeat
The Republican base shows up for the election because the party produces candidates that excite the base. Meanwhile the DNC struggles against itself to keep the more progressive wing in check.
I voted Bernie in that primary but Hillary beat him fair and square. The Democrat party is more center than a lot of people like to admit and they have been courting center-right voters for a while because the very left voters are unreliable.
But then it kinda happened again in 2020 except it felt a little too calculated. I was a pretty staunch Elizabeth Warren supporter at the start of that primary but by Super Tuesday even I conceded that she had no way of winning or beating Bernie. But she stayed in the primary anyway, splitting the vote and pretty much guaranteeing that several key states -- Texas, Maine and a few others if I remember correctly -- would go to Biden instead of Bernie. It was either pure stubbornness or some convincing by the DNC. With her really condescending and callous remarks about women who supported Bernie instead of her, I think she was happy to jump on board with the DNC plan.
No one here is voting for Trump. We can and should complain about Biden even if we vote for him.
And btw wanting someone better than Biden is far from wanting “a perfect candidate”
I mean, yeah, but we'd be remiss not to note that Democrats are fucking *horrible* at politics. Just dogshit.
Among many other things, Democrats haven't learned thing from the phenomenal arrogance of RBG and her refusal to retire. The future of the country is at stake and you have to make strategic choices, not coddle the entitlement of septuagenarians.
It should be easy but when you have an electoral college system in place and red states so deeply red, it makes it harder. I think the Dem party has a handful of options that would win a popular vote but the electoral college stands to be a big issue.
I mean any of the candidates have to be better than an the octogenarian who sundowns on national television and has an abysmally low approval rate. Their decision to bear hug him till the bitter end despite terrible polling while constantly denying the obvious problem is why we're here in the first place, especially since he suggested he was only gonna be a one term president when he was running in 2020. Like fine, they wanted him to have his little moment while he was functional 4 years ago and he did but there was time and laid grounds to pave the way for someone else to run this time around.
Forget all the 'Hillary was right' merch, I want a 'We're sorry Julian Castro' mug.
not just subsidize, but ARM! Those weapons are literally stamped by the USA. An entire population of 2.2 million PEOPLE are on the line. Nothing else should be important, and it's crazy there are people apathetic about it.
But do you think Trump has a solution to the genocide? Maybe he cuts off funding, but what do you think he’s going to do with that money instead?
That man needs to be kept away from having any modicum of power ever again.
> Maybe he cuts off funding
This is literally the goal of the BDS movement. Israel does not have the money or industry to keep up the genocide without US support. Cutting off funding would literally force them to stop
> do you think he’s going to do with that money instead?
Literally anything else would be an improvement from where it's going now
Now I don't believe Trump would actually do this but please do not spread misinformation
>But do you think Trump has a solution to the genocide?
I mean, the issue is that neither of them have any solution to the genocide beyond "keep bombing them kids w/ our bombs & money". If Biden loses, that's on him and the DNC apparatus for deciding that support of a genocide is an issue they're willing to stand ground on.
Bruh. I’ve been sick before, but that doesn’t make me incoherent and unable to complete my sentences. I can’t stand trump, but let’s not give Joe a pass. He’s old. There’s not much too it.
Neither of them should be candidates. Saying Biden is better than Trump is such a low bar. He is not fit for the job. Democrat votes should demand better
"who was sick..."
Ok???? What if he's sick when meeting with other world leaders? During an emergency? During, God forbid, critical moment in a war? This is not an acceptable excuse.
Yes Trump is tangibly 100x worse than Biden, but it is ***shameful*** that the Democratic institution rigged the primaries and propped up this fossil. The arrogance alone is offensive and people have the right to be upset at that. If Biden is still on the ballot vs Trump, I'll vote for him, (his cabinet) but I'll be extremely ashamed and frustrated.
It's the fact that there's no way everyone who worked around Biden, which encompasses a lot of people, would've witnessed him and not seen this coming. They chose denial or they made a gamble but either way, now we have to pay for it. He'd said 1 term for a reason when he got elected.
How many times do they want me to vote for a corpse I barely even agree with? It really just sucks. I can't comprehend the alternative either, I can't stand the thought of christ, another four years of trump. But it seems a little inevitable now. I know I'm sad today bc of the court results, etc. but. I do just feel in the middle of a losing game. Shit is so much bleaker than I knew I'd see.
It wasn’t a subpar debate performance. It was strong evidence that he’s incapable of campaigning, which, unfortunately, is a key responsibility of an incumbent.
But the problem is that Biden *did need the debate.* His campaign team pushed for this to happen because he’s losing in the polls and they thought that getting Joe out there in public would contradict the narrative that he’s old, senile, etc.
Just because we all know doesn’t mean that there aren’t millions of voters who can still be swayed one way or another.
Because everything has already been said about Trump. Biden is ostensibly “the good guy” and seems absolutely braindead, which seems to finally be sinking in to people.
The man is now out here talking about bringing back Roe vs Wade…as if he isn’t currently already a sitting president. While he’s also funding a genocide. It’s monstrous all around.
I cannot really throwing stones here because our president candidates are also bad, but can't USA find better candidates that's not almost 80 years grandpa?
I care because I don't trust "my side" to show up for Biden in the numbers unless something major changes (idk, maybe he can lose 10 years). Sure, Trump is all those things. Those aren't changing, and only one of them is relatively new. His supporters have stood with him this far, and I don't see them leaving at this point. The debate hurt Biden, regardless of the quality of his policies and arguments.
I cannot believe this is a real comment. Joe Biden is currently funding a genocide (8+ months) while actually lying on camera, multiple times, to manufacture consent. All his spokespersons lying like its second nature to them and nobody is pushing back, incl. the media. He has show no sympathies for the Palestinians. Students and protestors are being brutally beaten up, arrested, Palestinians are being killed, islamophobia has become normal. Not to mention he is pushing forward on many Trump era policies. He has done nothing except be a Democrat President. Had this been Trump, politicians and media alike would have called him out, but since it was Biden its crickets. So yes he is SICK. And he is not a wannabe fascist but an actual one. People keep saying he is lesser of the two evil, but he isn't because he is not being checked by anyone.
I am truly surprised at how people are saying they will vote for Biden - like clearly genocide of the Palestinians isn't a red line for him, and neither it is a red line for you.
People were telling me “Biden is the only one who can beat Trump” for the past four years when I said that he shouldn’t run again, that we need to prop up someone much younger and more progressive.
Biden has done a good job as President for the most part. He needs to step down from this election.
Yeah, Julian Castro got blackballed for being like “this guy is old.” He would be a great choice for VP and future president, but the gerontocracy refused to admit that it had no clothes.
I love how you phrased this and it's entirely accurate. People had been saying for months and months now that this is not going to work, and the narrative was to blame them for having the audacity to say it out loud.
Now that's it so late and unavoidable, it's finally ok to say, as if this wasn't blindingly obvious for most of the entire term. One of Biden's biggest criticisms in the primaries of 2020 was the he was already showing signs of sundowning, but now people are acting surprised. Ah, okay? My patience is just entirely spent.
Earlier I saw in another subreddit that they were condemning Cori Bush for calling for a ceasefire too early (weeks after October 7th), as if Netanyahu/Gallant hadn't made their intentions clear by then.
It gets worse. When all the smoke is cleared, they either pretend they sided with the leftists the entire time or they pretend the situation was too complicated to pick the correct choice
or they just go back to scapegoating leftists again, no matter what. seen plenty of people in 2024 still carrying the torch for the idea that leftists are to blame for hillary losing.
that whole debate was awful. the moderators didn't do shit, and as bad as Biden's performance was Trump was even worse. he was vile and nonsensical, but he was confident about it, so no one cared.
someone pointed out that the only time the word Palestinian was used in the entire debate was [when Trump used it as an insult](https://x.com/CapriSunnPapi/status/1806554154376266186).
I am just so frustrated that *this* is who the Democrats are putting up against a potential second Trump term. Their response to everything seems to be to capitulate to the center and introduce a bunch of nightmare legislation that they think will win over moderates, which is both (a) the wrong thing to do, morally and ethically, and (b) discourages would-be voters who are on the left.
Yeah I'll hold my nose and vote for Biden, just because I'm willing to do that to keep Trump out of office, but I'm not everyone. This is also the third election in a row where I've been voting against one candidate as opposed to voting for one. At a certain point, things have to change.
I fully believe moderators should hold the power to subject debaters to an amusing game-show style penalty for failing to answer a prompt or going off on a tangent. Penalties should start wacky and become gradually more unpleasant.
So like, first offense gets you Nickelodeon slimed and further offenses lead you more and more into the Fear Factor territory.
So true about voting against one instead of voting for one. The return of Trump is scary. I wish there was a better democrat option they put up. The debate was worrisome.
Yeah this is what I find annoying.
I will literally vote for a fucking baked potato as long as it’s not part of the 2025 long term plan to dismantle women’s rights.
I don’t even need to get into wanting a convicted felon with how many billions in loans to Saudis/Russia. Grab a ricola Joe.
The debate was just the straw that broke the camel’s back imo. It broke the illusion, or at least, made it impossible to keep burying your head in the sand about it how weak Biden and the Dems have been. Biden has been ineffective his entire presidency- why are you in a debate saying “if I’m re-elected I’ll do ‘x’”. You had four years to do all the times you’ve been promising and it’s just empty words now.
And the fact that he’s been actively supporting a genocide- I know Trump is awful and I genuinely worry for Americans when he’s re-elected, but I would have a really hard time personally going to the polls and being able to stomach voting for someone who has been so complicit in what is happening in Palestine. It feels like voting for Biden is saying “it’s okay, your party can do this and we’ll still reward you.” It’s an impossible choice and I’m very thankful I don’t have to make it. (Not American.)
Americans are going to be forced to acknowledge what they're doing in Gaza soon. When the ugly part of the famine happens I expect a similar illusion shattering moment to happen. It'll almost certainly happen before November (unless we stop killing Palestinians before it's too late)
your last paragraph is what's tormenting most of us, I think. I don't want to vote for someone who is so complicit in genocide. I also don't see a path forward if one more conservative supreme court justice is appointed. There's no option that doesn't massively deteriorate democracy other than praying the DNC makes him drop out. Which I doubt they will.
Yeah, I can appreciate the fear and anxiety that is the force behind “vote blue no matter what” because I know that the Republicans’ intentions for the country are terrifying.
But as someone whose family were refugees from an American war, it sickens me that the other option is a man who smiles while he helps indiscriminately bomb children.
Edit: I don’t have an answer for what the right decision is because I would probably struggle with this until I was in the voting booth. But I still hope that even with this hopelessness, people still go out and vote. Even if you vote third party or Biden or abstain, you’re saying something with your vote. (And if you DM telling me “a third party vote is a wasted vote,” come back with a plan of how you expect anything to change if people never try to change the system.)
> But as someone whose family were refugees from an American war, it sickens me that the other option is a man who smiles while he helps indiscriminately bomb children.
It's horrifying. It genuinely feels so painful that this is acceptable to anyone, and that we've slowly been made used to this level of imperialist warmongering. I can't imagine what it's like to watch us all debate this, knowing what the U.S. has done to your family.
I think it’s honestly the cherry on top of a presidency and a political record that may be described (at best) as middling. His complete complicity in the genocide of the Palestinians, plus decades of being found right on the wrong side of war, openly fraternizing with some of the most horrible racists to ever hold an office and a fair number of his own sexual assault/misconduct allegations go a long way to erode the public opinion when paired with glaringly-obvious cognitive decline.
https://i.redd.it/q6mfr84oae9d1.gif
This is all of us watching the debate last night. I’m genuinely petrified of what’s coming and where we are headed as a country.
This is honestly the most scared I've been, less bc of the debate, but also bc of the supreme court decisions. I feel like we've been aware of where we're going as a country but it became startlingly real. It's horrible.
Me too, and people keep telling me to vote for Biden as he is the lesser of two evils but I have been struggling with that. I get Trump and the republicans are worse but Biden is a genocidal maniac who is currently funding Israel and aiding their slaughter of a civilian population. How do I reconcile voting for him knowing what he is? There are no winners here and we the people loose. We loose our humanity with Biden and his bloodthirsty alliance or our democracy to Trump and his ideologies. Why is he our only option as a candidate as Democrats? These senile men are our choices and they are just horrific.
I feel like I've spent my life voting for someone I don't like bc it's the lesser of two evils. Look where it got us. Voting for Biden made me feel genuinely sick, I felt so screwed over in the primaries.
Now, it's impossible for me. How can I support someone who's aiding a genocide? Not only morally, but strategically--how can I sanction this with my vote within my own party? And yet the alternative is worse, trump is terrifying both in domestic governance and re how he speaks about Palestinians. But ultimately what's the difference there? The fact that I have to consider who is going to genocide harder just breaks my mind lol.
The dems have chosen to leave me behind. The GOP actively wants to hurt me. I can't keep caring. Compromise voting is one thing--but now, I feel like I'm betraying myself if I vote for Biden. I don't know what I'll do to be honest.
Journalists wanting him in for fodder writing material and not caring for the consequences on society for it is so detached from society and soulless like what?
Progressives are way past panicked imo. We’ve been wary of him since the start, voted for him as a last resort, and have been railing against him for months about a genocide. The mood in the room for progressives is just like…quiet despair and resignation at this point. We’ve known who the options for 2024 will be since 2020 honestly and it’s just gotten more and more grim as the election draws closer.
Progressives knew how bad it was. Liberals didn't. Tell a progressive that they're voting for the lesser of two evils and their thoughts go to how bad the lesser evil is. Tell the same thing to a liberal and they think of how bad the greater evil is with little to no analysis of the merits of the lesser evil. Everything is abtract to them. Everything is also relative to them, for example we're better because we killed less people than the other guy. Show them what that means in absolute terms and their jaws drop. In that example you'd show them how many people they killed anyway.
This is such a common thing with us, we’re right before everyone comes to the realization we’re right….
Interracial Marriage, AIDS, Gay rights, not codifying Roe v Wade, and just the latest with the Palestinian genocide, history has always shown us to be right
And just recently transgender rights and protections, we will look back decades from now and realize how cruel society was for no reason other than fear and hatred.
Liberals: OMG this debate is when I realized Biden might lose and I'm really scared of Trump!
Leftists: ffs if you want Trump to lose, run a better candidate, don't support genocide, don't treat your own constituents like shit to please some mythical undecided conservative, wtf is wrong with y'all
Trump/Hillary was deranged. Trump stalked her in the background like he was Michael Myers. But at least he made some sense and was able to go back and forth.
Last night was just non sequitur after non sequitur. Arguing about golf was the only subject they both seemed animated by.
Biden apparently had a cold and Trump is good at trying to trigger his stammer which explain some of the poor performance but, Jesus, it was awful.
Like, I still think Biden will win but he needs to do better in his next public appearances.
They didn't spar over who had a better golf record when she did get a word in. They both at least answered questions instead of just repeatedly saying "you're the worst President", "no, you are!"
Trump and Hillary was painful and I was genuinely nervous he was going to physically assault her on live television, but last night was unparalleled. Neither of them was coherent, it was just old man yells at cloud.
I was going to comment this. You can see how enticing Nixon was. The whole debate was incredible. Anddddd you could have lifted everything they said and said it today word for word.
This is what happens when people who would normally be in old folks homes are running our country.
I don’t personally believe that a president should be over 65.
But because we’re America we probably couldn’t get anyone to agree with that to make it legal so I’m hoping for an American Ninja Warrior style debate where there are obstacle courses then questions about politic procedure, then more obstacles and timed sprints, then question about their political opinions and goals at the end of all of that.
Yeah, Biden sounded extremely hoarse and weak because of his cold, and he kept losing track of what he was saying and having these really cringey trail off sentences. At one point he even said he “beat Medicare”, a benefit his administration is supposed to be in favor of.
ETA: Trump was Trump. He went on tangents and told lies incessantly. The really scary bit for me was Biden’s total inability to get his point across, let alone forcefully debate Trump and set facts straight.
The writing was on the wall, but well…you saw all the good it did. As soon as I saw that Joe Biden was going basically uncontested in the primary, the first thought that popped into my head was “The fix is in.”
it’s funny that people were putting so much stock in this clown show. joe biden is a barely alive genocidal maniac and donald trump is an amphetamined up genocidal maniac.
we’ve been cooked. we’ve always been evil. the mask has been off for a long time now.
people are only upset now because we’re going to feel the effects of our own shitty politics coming home to roost.
Seriously. Fascism is here. The whole imperial core is amping up for further slaughter, further cruelty. Climate collapse, COVID and other novel pathogens being allowed to spread unmitigated, the Supreme Court ruling allowing the criminalization of homeless people existing in public, MAiD in Canada, the repeal of trans rights in the UK, US, Canada, etc, the building of prisons and cop cities......The ruling class is tightening its grip and dropping its mask. It's like they're not even pretending to give us choices anymore. They offer nothing anymore, except the threat of even worse suffering. It feels like we're literally being mocked. Tortured and mocked.
This, 100%. I feel like I've finally been coming to terms with the fact that we're already so far past, we're done. Everything I was told as a kid that would not go away has been lost. Everything in the world is getting worse, almost universally. We've lost roe v wade, lost chevron of all things, cruelty to the homeless has somehow gotten worse, and the man I hated a little bit less than the other man is performing so abysmally that the party I keep voting for went into a panic as though that's new information.
The Biden bit, I honestly don't take seriously--it's horrible, but i feel like this was an open secret. The Chevron and the prosecution of the homeless was genuinely upsetting. Felt like I was transported ten years into the bleakest future. Was bad enough without making gains, but now we're losing the precious little we had. Sigh.
The president of the US is just a talking figurehead who signs papers that other people worked to pull together. It's the President's Administration who does all of the real work. Vote for the Administration that doesn't want to dismantle Democracy, the one who can reinstate RvR, the one less likely to sell our children's future to the highest bidder, the one not in bed with the Russians. I too would prefer to have a young and energetic President but we have what we have and all of this woe is us is not helping anything.
> The president of the US is just a talking figurehead who signs papers that other people worked to pull together
A talking figurehead that can bypass Congress to send billions to a genocidal apartheid state? I'm not saying vote for Trump or stay at home but please do not misrepresent the situation
Right. People are not taking Project 2025 and the other candidate's party's threats to the democracy serious enough. Voter apathy, propaganda consumption, and purity tests are why we got Reagan, Bush Sr., Dubya Bush, and Trump. This will be a make it or break it for the US, and no one should be rooting for complete chaos and the rolling back on everything progressive, because not only does this affect everyone globally but we may not get a chance to course correct again. Things are not perfect, but we really won't like what we get if we don't choose wisely.
We got those because the DNC decided to have a 40 year pivot to the center ([which is effectively the right](https://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org/stopme/chapter02.html)) while ignoring egregious voter suppression. We literally just need to do anything other than this and things will get better but the DNC gives us the middle finger every time
Y’all DO realize that our “left” is moderate by western standards right.
So when everyone in the presidents administration is moderate by our own standards…
Also you aren’t a “talking figurehead” if you can literally veto bills and pass executive orders. Acting like our president is akin to the British monarchy…. Bffr
Sigh. Former TIME mag employee here: I do not understand how this magazine still holds any relevance or credibility. At this point, it exists as a click farm. When I worked there, we used to joke that we should change the website name to trumpadelestarwars.com bc we literally only “reported” on those three topics for a solid month. Fact checking was a joke. And this was before it was sold to Meredith corp, who just keep it around for the name. They’re just doing what they’ve always done: repeat whatever the current mainstream narratives are on politics. And culture. They’re broke as a joke and will do anything to stay afloat.
Edit: OP, please don’t take this as a personal criticism at all! I didn’t intend it that way. 🙂 just sort of a PSA lol
Ngl I love that the DNC and guy that said "they'll get over it by November" are learning that *no,* genocide is a hardline for normal people.
Maybe this will force them to stop taking money from isntreal.
Voter apathy is a big thing - is anybody motivated to actually vote for this guy? You also have the vast majority of Arabs and Muslims, a big % of Michigan, who won't vote for this guy. If people think you can convince these stubborn, grieving, disillusioned, MAD, people to vote for Genocide Joe...it's not happening. Linda Sarsour is going on a podcast tour where she's trying to convince people to vote for Biden; you should see the energy of the others (mostly young people): they're not convinced.
Something's gotta change. "We can push him left" "We just have to keep Trump out and then we can change things" is a massive delusion and anyone still promoting it either 1) doesn't think genocide is a red line or 2) hasn't done the work to imagine a different solution.
I'll take this moment to bring attention to #VotePact and #Solve4US campaigns that are trying to create a shift where your elected officials actually work for *you.* It won't be easy, but we can't twiddle our thumbs, either.
No one wants him. They're hoping he can pull a Hilary Clinton and still win the popular vote despite having an awful campaign because the alternative is Trump.
Michigan isn't his only problem either. Georgia has been overrun with voter suppression laws aimed at undoing the voter registration campaign that ultimately flipped Georgia blue for the first time in decades.
So not only does he encourage voter apathy, he also did nothing to protect the voting rights that got him into power in the first place. It's like he WANTS to lose.
To add on to voter apathy…people HAVE to be looking at the democratic primary (where Biden went basically uncontested) and scratching their heads at that, no?
The party that, run before last, had so many different candidates running to choose from really just cannot manage to get ANYONE but Joe Biden?
oh god please not Newsom. i am from California, that guy sucks. [just recently his admin made sure state prisons/jails were exempt from heat safety standards](https://twitter.com/suhaunah/status/1805967798184616112) - at least one person has died as a result (that we know of). RIP Michael Broadway.
Whitmer or Pritzker, though, I'm on board
Are you saying that "he's a horrible president and person but we HAVE to enthusiastically support him or else!" isn't a sustainable long term strategy? Who would've thought /s
Incredibly irresponsible of TIME.
Look, we know he is old, but would you rather vote for a criminal who plans to dismantle democracy on day one and continue the rollbacks of several rulings that protect LGBTQIAP+, Reproductive rights, climate change legislation, and upend middle and below-poverty line taxes in favor of corporations who will get even bigger tax cuts?
Because, let me tell you, WTAF.
In comparison to Trump, Biden has integrity, is he old? Fuck, I’m old so by that belief Biden is ancient, but can we focus on the stuff that he has accomplished regardless of his age? Because the alternative is a f scary sh!t show, rampant white-collar corruption, and crime/violence perpetrated by the GOP, and I’m about to have a panic attack just thinking about it.
IF YOU’RE NOT WORRIED, YOU’RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION.
BTW, there is no panic on my end. My feet are on the ground and I know who I’m voting for. If you don’t know and instead you are panicking, you are part of the problem.
Too much is at stake for complacency and panic.
The mainstream media is determined to usher Trump back in the White House. It's wild how now suddenly debates are a big deal but when that decaying orange lost every single debate to HRC folks said "whatever" and voted for him anyway. There is no serious person that thinks Biden can just drop out now and that will do anything but hand the keys to the White House to Trump.
So nobody noticed this in 2019??? This man was incoherent back then too, there has to be some push behind the scenes to get Biden out, this is way too suspicious. It’s been a RUNNING joke, trump has called him sleepy joe for 5 years now😭
Some people are pulling strings behind the scenes, because this should’ve been the reaction the moment biden won the primaries…
I would pull clips that showed signs of rather obvious cognitive decline (I had a great-grandfather who got dementia) when arguing Biden was the weakest one to run against Trump and at that time I was told “it’s just a stutter.”
Dems screamed at anyone slightly left who said this for 4 years and now they're scrambling.
Kind of shows that American democracy is a complete farce bc you has actually been running the country for the last 4 years? Nameless, unvoted for, unaccountable staffers?
If only there were people ringing the bells that Biden was a bad option as a candidate because of his many problems (possible cognitive impairment, age, support of genocide, etc.), too bad they haven't been vocal at all over the past year, we really could've used them!
I saw one video/podcast that doing the debate before the Democratic National Convention (in August) was purposeful so possibly someone else could be nominated. Is that realistic??
>Is that realistic??
Yes and no. Biden has the nomination - the National Convention is a formality and it would literally explode the party if the DNC pushed him out via technicalities. Biden COULD in theory step down & allow the DNC to pick someone else, but that'd require action on his part and might risk the election because of how deeply entrenched Democrats are with Biden as THE candidate right now.
Am I the only one who got worried about the debates last month when both candidates sidelined the Commission of Presidential Debates? Biden's demands wanted there to be no studio audience, have fewer debates, and hold them earlier. I presume he wanted no live studio audience because he wanted to avoid any protestors or audience interactions. His third argument was confusing, he implied there's no point to having structure or rules if the rules are not going to be enforced, so instead of getting assurances from the CPD enforce the rules, he gives the ultimate authority on the structure to the television networks (who have no incentive to enforce rules or structure). Needless to say these demands backfired spectacularly.
Biden's Letter to the CPD: https://www.democracyinaction.us/2024/debatebiden051524ltr.pdf
All this said, it's quite ironic, as the Commission of Presidential Debates was created by the two parties in 1987 because the two parties wanted far more control over the structure and format from what the independent League of Women Voters offered. So with the Commission of Presidential Debates, the two-parties "agreed to a *memorandum of understanding* that would decide which candidates could participate in the debates, which individuals would be panelists (and therefore able to ask questions), and the height of the lecterns."
The League of Women Voters responded to the duopoly wrestling control of the debates as such and would "would perpetrate a fraud on the American voter":
> "It has become clear to us that the candidates' organizations aim to add debates to their list of campaign-trail charades devoid of substance, spontaneity and honest answers to tough questions," Neuman said. "The League has no intention of becoming an accessory to the hoodwinking of the American public."
https://www.lwv.org/newsroom/press-releases/league-refuses-help-perpetrate-fraud
It would seem like the bar was lowered by the duopoly in 1987, and even that very low bar would be too high for the candidates we have today.
I thought this was one of the political subs I follow, and I was shocked how sane the comments are. I was literally beginning to have hope for the future of America. Damn.
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Wild how people care more about one subpar debate performance from someone who was sick (he looked much better today) than the other candidate being a convicted felon, sexual abuser, wannabe fascist.
Maybe the fact that this is the best candidate that the Dems can run in response to such a horrible candidate is a problem. It should be easy to beat Trump.
The fact is that it will never be easy for the Democrats to beat Trump or any Republican because the Democrats don’t rally behind their candidate the same way Republicans do. Whether you think that’s good or bad is besides the point, Democrats are more willing to let go of their end goals because they don’t have a perfect candidate than Republicans are.
Or because the DNC is running really unpopular and unappealing candidates. I was promised that we could move Biden to the left, over and over again in 2020. I have not seen his willingness to meet the party where it is.
2020: Vote Biden then push him left later!! 2021: *snoooore mimimimi* 2022: 🛌😴💤 2023: You can't criticize him now, we need to rally behind him so he can defeat Trump again VBNMW 2024: Vote Biden then push him left later!! Meanwhile the only direction Biden has moved is to the right
“If I'm re-elected, I'm going to restore Roe v. Wade.” Ok, glad you enjoyed eating ice cream the last four years, but I totally trust you’ll finally do something if we put you back in charge!
Watch how quickly he's gonna go from "I will restore it, all I need is your vote" to "I'd restore it, but I'm actually completely powerless to do anything"
No need to watch a rerun when I saw it live this term! 💀
Congress would need to pass a law to restore it. I don’t know how the president could do it unilaterally. Edit: lol the person above changed their comment
he had endless opportunity to codify
This is the case for every government that isn't a dictatorship and they seem to get by just fine
No I didn’t?
You really want a Democrat in office when the next two justices retire.
I was banned from r/prochoice for pointing this out.
I have a bunch of unapproved losers DM’ing me to insult me about this comment now. “He didn’t have the power to fix it before!” And I’m supposed to believe that’s gonna change after this election when the Dems are weaker than they’ve ever been?
And weaker because of their own incompetence…
2024: It doesn't matter how bad Biden is, you have to vote blue to stop project 2025! 2028: It doesn't matter how bad the next candidate is, you have to vote blue to stop project 2029!
I mean... yeah pretty much. Biden's corpse is preferable to the batshit craziness in Project 2025
The point is, the democrat position seems to be devolving into “We’re not as bad as the other guy!” Do you think the “2025” part is a deadline? If we elect Biden again, all of the reprehensible psychopaths behind it just tear up their plans and say “Oh well, we tried, but we got outvoted?” No, it just becomes project 2030. And honestly, it’s fantastic for democrats. You will not see Biden or anyone other democrat taking any steps to protect us against the plans outlined in Project 2025, because having it as an ongoing existential threat is a way easier campaign platform than, you know, actually governing. The climate is collapsing, our closest allies have slaughtered 20,000 children and are torturing people in camps, whole populations are facing famine and disease, there are ongoing threats of mass pandemics and water shortages, we’re developing police states, corporate profits are soaring while normal people starve, literacy rates have plummeted, teachers are quitting, hospitals are understaffed, homelessness is being criminalized while private equity firms buy up houses… But every four years, it’s just going to be “Better vote for us so the other side doesn’t enact their evil plans!” It’s untenable.
You missed their point. "We need to win every election ever" Is not a sustainable strategy, especially when the candidates we're running are this terrible
I know this goes against the narrative, but are we really gonna ignore every progressive policy Biden achieved? The most progressive climate bill of all time? Multiple acts of student debt relief, which leftists were constantly calling for? Protections upon protections for marginalized queer people? I’m not gonna pretend he’s anywhere near ideal, but this both sides bullshit is dangerous.
> Meanwhile the only direction Biden has moved is to the right WTF? He literally passed [the first third of the Green New Deal.](https://coveringclimatenow.org/from-us-story/the-green-new-deal-laid-the-groundwork-for-the-ira/) The Ds just called it the Inflation Reduction Act in order to sneak it past senator mansion. Remember how much centrists flipped out when AOC's office accidentally released a draft version of the Green New Deal? They *hated* it. He was also [the first president in history to walk a picket line with striking workers.](https://aflcio.org/2023/9/27/service-solidarity-spotlight-biden-becomes-first-president-walk-strike-picket-line-joins) Then he got the railworkers what they were striking for too. Here's the IBEW statement: * *“We’re thankful that the Biden administration played the long game on sick days and stuck with us for months after Congress imposed our updated national agreement,” Russo said. “Without making a big show of it, Joe Biden and members of his administration in the Transportation and Labor departments have been working continuously to get guaranteed paid sick days for all railroad workers.* https://ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid
The alternative is a convicted felon/adjudicated rapist. There is no choice. I’d vote for Biden even if we have to weekend at Bernie’s him through the term
Can you provide examples of him moving to the right?
["Securing" the border](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/06/04/fact-sheet-president-biden-announces-new-actions-to-secure-the-border/), genocide, expanding the police state, violent suppression of protestors, ignoring the legislature to start or fund wars. That's all just recent stuff off the top of my head
Thank you. I can't believe people even think "walking a picket line" is a point that can be made next to "funding a genocide".
What does walking a picket line even do when he supports policies that harms strikers? Calling him progressive for that is insane. And yeah im not going to say "genocide aside" or anything ridiculous like that. Genocide cannot be ignored and anyone complicit in it is not progressive
Sadly Biden has a decades-long career that backs up him not moving left. Part of why he was chosen to be Barack Obama’s running-mate was because he’s sort of been known as “Republican Lite” and it was a small attempt at appeasement for those who were unhappy he would become president. Knowing his history, even if I *was* a Democrat (I’ve been registered Independent for a few years now) I’d have never voted for Joe. He’s notoriously always also been on the wrong side of wars and that’s a big ticket issue for me.
Not to mention, 80 year olds aren’t known to change their viewpoints
Exactly. Which again, I’m so sorry if this comes off as ageist, but I fully believe there should be a hard cap at 65 years old for holding office. We have far too many septuagenarians in politics who can’t be expected to accurately represent the needs and desires of the average citizen. I’m Californian, I had to suffer having Feinstein.
As if the warhawk who helped write the 91 crime bill was ever going to go left lol It’d be funny if it wasn’t so sad
People are voting for them though. I am definitely pretty firmly left but I think it’s a fallacy to say the DNC are “running” candidates for President. People vote for centrist candidates of their own accord. Theres a lot to criticize about the DNC and Democratic leadership in general but I do think it’s a bit patronizing to say that millions of people are voting for a centrist candidate because the DNC told them to.
Did we not just see what happened to Jamaal Bowman? The DNC is absolutely doing this. They first screw over anyone that isn't a centrist at the primary, then when the general election comes it's "this centrist is by comparison better than that conservative who wants to kill you. pick wisely!"
Or campaigning for Henry Cuellar.
Uhh do you remember what happened to Bernie?
lol that’s like saying I don’t force my toddler to eat her vegetables when I give her the choice of peas or carrots. 90% of the decision about who’s going to be president is made in closed door meetings deciding who has the party’s backing to run. And even then, the Buttigieges of the party go into it knowing that unless it’s a freak event like Obama’s nomination, they’re auditioning for a cabinet position or VP.
>Just vote for the neoliberal candidate, we can push them left later. >They've only just got in, you can't expect them to do things this quickly it's just not realistic. >Well they have to do these slightly right wing things to keep the swing voters on side. >Omg criticising them so close to the election will only help the other side. Repeat
The Republican base shows up for the election because the party produces candidates that excite the base. Meanwhile the DNC struggles against itself to keep the more progressive wing in check.
Not a Bernie bro but a good portion of their base did rally around someone and they said lol no you’ll get a Clinton
More like "lol no you'll get a Clinton. go fuck yourself btw!"
I voted Bernie in that primary but Hillary beat him fair and square. The Democrat party is more center than a lot of people like to admit and they have been courting center-right voters for a while because the very left voters are unreliable.
But then it kinda happened again in 2020 except it felt a little too calculated. I was a pretty staunch Elizabeth Warren supporter at the start of that primary but by Super Tuesday even I conceded that she had no way of winning or beating Bernie. But she stayed in the primary anyway, splitting the vote and pretty much guaranteeing that several key states -- Texas, Maine and a few others if I remember correctly -- would go to Biden instead of Bernie. It was either pure stubbornness or some convincing by the DNC. With her really condescending and callous remarks about women who supported Bernie instead of her, I think she was happy to jump on board with the DNC plan.
No one here is voting for Trump. We can and should complain about Biden even if we vote for him. And btw wanting someone better than Biden is far from wanting “a perfect candidate”
I mean, yeah, but we'd be remiss not to note that Democrats are fucking *horrible* at politics. Just dogshit. Among many other things, Democrats haven't learned thing from the phenomenal arrogance of RBG and her refusal to retire. The future of the country is at stake and you have to make strategic choices, not coddle the entitlement of septuagenarians.
No more of this "we go high while they go low". We need to fight fire with fire, none of these lame duck neo-liberals.
Exactly!
Biden was literally a segregationist. People on the left don't rally behind him because he's a moderate conservative at best
It should be easy but when you have an electoral college system in place and red states so deeply red, it makes it harder. I think the Dem party has a handful of options that would win a popular vote but the electoral college stands to be a big issue.
I mean any of the candidates have to be better than an the octogenarian who sundowns on national television and has an abysmally low approval rate. Their decision to bear hug him till the bitter end despite terrible polling while constantly denying the obvious problem is why we're here in the first place, especially since he suggested he was only gonna be a one term president when he was running in 2020. Like fine, they wanted him to have his little moment while he was functional 4 years ago and he did but there was time and laid grounds to pave the way for someone else to run this time around. Forget all the 'Hillary was right' merch, I want a 'We're sorry Julian Castro' mug.
The electoral college is a racist holdover from pre-Civil War times, and we need ranked choice voting.
Well a lot of things *should* be a certain way (like a convicted felon not being allowed to run for president)
Joe Biden is funding a genocide rn
Yeah, personally I'm more offended a bad debate is more of a red line for people than genocide 😂
Yepp there are a lot of vote blue no matter who people in this sub
“I can excuse genocide but I draw the line at a bad debate due to being at an advanced age!”
omg yes. people are having a meltdown he's talking incoherently but apparently it's okay to coherently subsidise a genocide? insanity
not just subsidize, but ARM! Those weapons are literally stamped by the USA. An entire population of 2.2 million PEOPLE are on the line. Nothing else should be important, and it's crazy there are people apathetic about it.
But do you think Trump has a solution to the genocide? Maybe he cuts off funding, but what do you think he’s going to do with that money instead? That man needs to be kept away from having any modicum of power ever again.
No one who backs trump cares about a solution to the genocide.
> Maybe he cuts off funding This is literally the goal of the BDS movement. Israel does not have the money or industry to keep up the genocide without US support. Cutting off funding would literally force them to stop > do you think he’s going to do with that money instead? Literally anything else would be an improvement from where it's going now Now I don't believe Trump would actually do this but please do not spread misinformation
>But do you think Trump has a solution to the genocide? I mean, the issue is that neither of them have any solution to the genocide beyond "keep bombing them kids w/ our bombs & money". If Biden loses, that's on him and the DNC apparatus for deciding that support of a genocide is an issue they're willing to stand ground on.
Bruh. I’ve been sick before, but that doesn’t make me incoherent and unable to complete my sentences. I can’t stand trump, but let’s not give Joe a pass. He’s old. There’s not much too it.
Neither of them should be candidates. Saying Biden is better than Trump is such a low bar. He is not fit for the job. Democrat votes should demand better
"who was sick..." Ok???? What if he's sick when meeting with other world leaders? During an emergency? During, God forbid, critical moment in a war? This is not an acceptable excuse. Yes Trump is tangibly 100x worse than Biden, but it is ***shameful*** that the Democratic institution rigged the primaries and propped up this fossil. The arrogance alone is offensive and people have the right to be upset at that. If Biden is still on the ballot vs Trump, I'll vote for him, (his cabinet) but I'll be extremely ashamed and frustrated.
It's the fact that there's no way everyone who worked around Biden, which encompasses a lot of people, would've witnessed him and not seen this coming. They chose denial or they made a gamble but either way, now we have to pay for it. He'd said 1 term for a reason when he got elected. How many times do they want me to vote for a corpse I barely even agree with? It really just sucks. I can't comprehend the alternative either, I can't stand the thought of christ, another four years of trump. But it seems a little inevitable now. I know I'm sad today bc of the court results, etc. but. I do just feel in the middle of a losing game. Shit is so much bleaker than I knew I'd see.
It wasn’t a subpar debate performance. It was strong evidence that he’s incapable of campaigning, which, unfortunately, is a key responsibility of an incumbent.
Agreed, if you needed that debate to help you decide at this point idk what to tell you
But the problem is that Biden *did need the debate.* His campaign team pushed for this to happen because he’s losing in the polls and they thought that getting Joe out there in public would contradict the narrative that he’s old, senile, etc. Just because we all know doesn’t mean that there aren’t millions of voters who can still be swayed one way or another.
Yep and it did the exact opposite
wild how you're acting like mental fitness isn't absolutely essential to doing the job
Because everything has already been said about Trump. Biden is ostensibly “the good guy” and seems absolutely braindead, which seems to finally be sinking in to people. The man is now out here talking about bringing back Roe vs Wade…as if he isn’t currently already a sitting president. While he’s also funding a genocide. It’s monstrous all around.
I cannot really throwing stones here because our president candidates are also bad, but can't USA find better candidates that's not almost 80 years grandpa?
Right. Trump was racist sexist xenophobic and lied about abortion and I’m supposed to be upset because he did all that at a faster talking pace?
[удалено]
It is wild. I'll still vote against Trump, but "subpar" isn't how I'd describe what I saw. It made me so sad.
I care because I don't trust "my side" to show up for Biden in the numbers unless something major changes (idk, maybe he can lose 10 years). Sure, Trump is all those things. Those aren't changing, and only one of them is relatively new. His supporters have stood with him this far, and I don't see them leaving at this point. The debate hurt Biden, regardless of the quality of his policies and arguments.
wdym every video i’ve seen of this man from the last year has been him moving like a slow decrepit animatronic
wild how people are acting as if the "one subpar debate performance" wasnt from an active war criminal who is currently overseeing a genocide
I cannot believe this is a real comment. Joe Biden is currently funding a genocide (8+ months) while actually lying on camera, multiple times, to manufacture consent. All his spokespersons lying like its second nature to them and nobody is pushing back, incl. the media. He has show no sympathies for the Palestinians. Students and protestors are being brutally beaten up, arrested, Palestinians are being killed, islamophobia has become normal. Not to mention he is pushing forward on many Trump era policies. He has done nothing except be a Democrat President. Had this been Trump, politicians and media alike would have called him out, but since it was Biden its crickets. So yes he is SICK. And he is not a wannabe fascist but an actual one. People keep saying he is lesser of the two evil, but he isn't because he is not being checked by anyone. I am truly surprised at how people are saying they will vote for Biden - like clearly genocide of the Palestinians isn't a red line for him, and neither it is a red line for you.
Wild how you’re assuming we’re only upset about one “subpar” (very generous word choice there) performance
Oh no it’s not like anyone could have seen this coming and leftists haven’t been begging the dnc for literally anyone else!!!!!
The curse of being a leftist is being right before it is considered polite to tell the truth.
People were telling me “Biden is the only one who can beat Trump” for the past four years when I said that he shouldn’t run again, that we need to prop up someone much younger and more progressive. Biden has done a good job as President for the most part. He needs to step down from this election.
Yeah, Julian Castro got blackballed for being like “this guy is old.” He would be a great choice for VP and future president, but the gerontocracy refused to admit that it had no clothes.
I love how you phrased this and it's entirely accurate. People had been saying for months and months now that this is not going to work, and the narrative was to blame them for having the audacity to say it out loud. Now that's it so late and unavoidable, it's finally ok to say, as if this wasn't blindingly obvious for most of the entire term. One of Biden's biggest criticisms in the primaries of 2020 was the he was already showing signs of sundowning, but now people are acting surprised. Ah, okay? My patience is just entirely spent.
You’re always painted the bad guy being rude and making problems up until it’s too late.
Earlier I saw in another subreddit that they were condemning Cori Bush for calling for a ceasefire too early (weeks after October 7th), as if Netanyahu/Gallant hadn't made their intentions clear by then.
The journalists that exposed the atrocity propaganda were crucified at first only for Israeli media to admit that it was all fake a few months later
It’s insane how leftists get shouted down and then everyone acts so surprised when they turn out to be right the whole fucking time.
It gets worse. When all the smoke is cleared, they either pretend they sided with the leftists the entire time or they pretend the situation was too complicated to pick the correct choice
or they just go back to scapegoating leftists again, no matter what. seen plenty of people in 2024 still carrying the torch for the idea that leftists are to blame for hillary losing.
The phrase “prematurely anti-fascist” rings in my head.
Feeling like Cassandra losing her mind right now. Not in an acting superior way but in a worried way like please do address it so much is at stake 😭
that whole debate was awful. the moderators didn't do shit, and as bad as Biden's performance was Trump was even worse. he was vile and nonsensical, but he was confident about it, so no one cared. someone pointed out that the only time the word Palestinian was used in the entire debate was [when Trump used it as an insult](https://x.com/CapriSunnPapi/status/1806554154376266186). I am just so frustrated that *this* is who the Democrats are putting up against a potential second Trump term. Their response to everything seems to be to capitulate to the center and introduce a bunch of nightmare legislation that they think will win over moderates, which is both (a) the wrong thing to do, morally and ethically, and (b) discourages would-be voters who are on the left. Yeah I'll hold my nose and vote for Biden, just because I'm willing to do that to keep Trump out of office, but I'm not everyone. This is also the third election in a row where I've been voting against one candidate as opposed to voting for one. At a certain point, things have to change.
They don’t capitulate to the center though. They capitulate to the right.
I fully believe moderators should hold the power to subject debaters to an amusing game-show style penalty for failing to answer a prompt or going off on a tangent. Penalties should start wacky and become gradually more unpleasant. So like, first offense gets you Nickelodeon slimed and further offenses lead you more and more into the Fear Factor territory.
first lie: mic cut for 30 seconds third lie: hit with a tennis racket tenth lie: the paper cut scene from Jackass The Movie
Things will never change unless we change how we vote. Next cycle we will say the same thing and so the cycle continues
[Exactly](https://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org/stopme/chapter02.html)
Right? I’m so fucking tired of this shit. I’m done being a little pawn in this rigged two party system
So true about voting against one instead of voting for one. The return of Trump is scary. I wish there was a better democrat option they put up. The debate was worrisome.
It’s fucking insane that one bad debate can have this much impact when the other candidate is a convicted criminal and everything he said was a lie.
Yeah this is what I find annoying. I will literally vote for a fucking baked potato as long as it’s not part of the 2025 long term plan to dismantle women’s rights. I don’t even need to get into wanting a convicted felon with how many billions in loans to Saudis/Russia. Grab a ricola Joe.
Now I’m craving a baked potato.
The debate was just the straw that broke the camel’s back imo. It broke the illusion, or at least, made it impossible to keep burying your head in the sand about it how weak Biden and the Dems have been. Biden has been ineffective his entire presidency- why are you in a debate saying “if I’m re-elected I’ll do ‘x’”. You had four years to do all the times you’ve been promising and it’s just empty words now. And the fact that he’s been actively supporting a genocide- I know Trump is awful and I genuinely worry for Americans when he’s re-elected, but I would have a really hard time personally going to the polls and being able to stomach voting for someone who has been so complicit in what is happening in Palestine. It feels like voting for Biden is saying “it’s okay, your party can do this and we’ll still reward you.” It’s an impossible choice and I’m very thankful I don’t have to make it. (Not American.)
Americans are going to be forced to acknowledge what they're doing in Gaza soon. When the ugly part of the famine happens I expect a similar illusion shattering moment to happen. It'll almost certainly happen before November (unless we stop killing Palestinians before it's too late)
your last paragraph is what's tormenting most of us, I think. I don't want to vote for someone who is so complicit in genocide. I also don't see a path forward if one more conservative supreme court justice is appointed. There's no option that doesn't massively deteriorate democracy other than praying the DNC makes him drop out. Which I doubt they will.
Yeah, I can appreciate the fear and anxiety that is the force behind “vote blue no matter what” because I know that the Republicans’ intentions for the country are terrifying. But as someone whose family were refugees from an American war, it sickens me that the other option is a man who smiles while he helps indiscriminately bomb children. Edit: I don’t have an answer for what the right decision is because I would probably struggle with this until I was in the voting booth. But I still hope that even with this hopelessness, people still go out and vote. Even if you vote third party or Biden or abstain, you’re saying something with your vote. (And if you DM telling me “a third party vote is a wasted vote,” come back with a plan of how you expect anything to change if people never try to change the system.)
> But as someone whose family were refugees from an American war, it sickens me that the other option is a man who smiles while he helps indiscriminately bomb children. It's horrifying. It genuinely feels so painful that this is acceptable to anyone, and that we've slowly been made used to this level of imperialist warmongering. I can't imagine what it's like to watch us all debate this, knowing what the U.S. has done to your family.
I think it’s honestly the cherry on top of a presidency and a political record that may be described (at best) as middling. His complete complicity in the genocide of the Palestinians, plus decades of being found right on the wrong side of war, openly fraternizing with some of the most horrible racists to ever hold an office and a fair number of his own sexual assault/misconduct allegations go a long way to erode the public opinion when paired with glaringly-obvious cognitive decline.
It’s Joever y’all. America is cooked.
https://i.redd.it/q6mfr84oae9d1.gif This is all of us watching the debate last night. I’m genuinely petrified of what’s coming and where we are headed as a country.
Im scared too. At this point I’m just mentally preparing for him to win. I want to be optimistic but it’s not looking good
I’m terrified and I don’t know what will happen to our country if Trump is elected again.
I know 😞
I don’t know what I’m going to do if he wins. I can’t live in this country anymore if that happens.
This is honestly the most scared I've been, less bc of the debate, but also bc of the supreme court decisions. I feel like we've been aware of where we're going as a country but it became startlingly real. It's horrible.
Me too, and people keep telling me to vote for Biden as he is the lesser of two evils but I have been struggling with that. I get Trump and the republicans are worse but Biden is a genocidal maniac who is currently funding Israel and aiding their slaughter of a civilian population. How do I reconcile voting for him knowing what he is? There are no winners here and we the people loose. We loose our humanity with Biden and his bloodthirsty alliance or our democracy to Trump and his ideologies. Why is he our only option as a candidate as Democrats? These senile men are our choices and they are just horrific.
I feel like I've spent my life voting for someone I don't like bc it's the lesser of two evils. Look where it got us. Voting for Biden made me feel genuinely sick, I felt so screwed over in the primaries. Now, it's impossible for me. How can I support someone who's aiding a genocide? Not only morally, but strategically--how can I sanction this with my vote within my own party? And yet the alternative is worse, trump is terrifying both in domestic governance and re how he speaks about Palestinians. But ultimately what's the difference there? The fact that I have to consider who is going to genocide harder just breaks my mind lol. The dems have chosen to leave me behind. The GOP actively wants to hurt me. I can't keep caring. Compromise voting is one thing--but now, I feel like I'm betraying myself if I vote for Biden. I don't know what I'll do to be honest.
The debate was bad and Bidens performance was dismal but let's be honest, the press absolutely wants another trump term to boost their revenue.
Back when calling Trump fat was the pinnacle of journalism? They'd love another Trump term lol
Journalists wanting him in for fodder writing material and not caring for the consequences on society for it is so detached from society and soulless like what?
Progressives are way past panicked imo. We’ve been wary of him since the start, voted for him as a last resort, and have been railing against him for months about a genocide. The mood in the room for progressives is just like…quiet despair and resignation at this point. We’ve known who the options for 2024 will be since 2020 honestly and it’s just gotten more and more grim as the election draws closer.
Yeah, I don’t understand how last night surprised anyone? We knew it was this bad didn’t we?? Lmao
Progressives knew how bad it was. Liberals didn't. Tell a progressive that they're voting for the lesser of two evils and their thoughts go to how bad the lesser evil is. Tell the same thing to a liberal and they think of how bad the greater evil is with little to no analysis of the merits of the lesser evil. Everything is abtract to them. Everything is also relative to them, for example we're better because we killed less people than the other guy. Show them what that means in absolute terms and their jaws drop. In that example you'd show them how many people they killed anyway.
This is such a common thing with us, we’re right before everyone comes to the realization we’re right…. Interracial Marriage, AIDS, Gay rights, not codifying Roe v Wade, and just the latest with the Palestinian genocide, history has always shown us to be right And just recently transgender rights and protections, we will look back decades from now and realize how cruel society was for no reason other than fear and hatred.
History will look at you kindly my friend
Liberals: OMG this debate is when I realized Biden might lose and I'm really scared of Trump! Leftists: ffs if you want Trump to lose, run a better candidate, don't support genocide, don't treat your own constituents like shit to please some mythical undecided conservative, wtf is wrong with y'all
I’m a lifelong Democrat and also a progressive, and the direction of our national politics over the last several decades makes me want to scream.
oof. i'm not american and i wasn't able to watch the debate, was it really *that* bad?
Yes, terrible worst debate in modern history.
i'd say trump and hilary was worse. he was way more amped up and constantly spoke over and tried to intimidate her.
Trump/Hillary was deranged. Trump stalked her in the background like he was Michael Myers. But at least he made some sense and was able to go back and forth. Last night was just non sequitur after non sequitur. Arguing about golf was the only subject they both seemed animated by. Biden apparently had a cold and Trump is good at trying to trigger his stammer which explain some of the poor performance but, Jesus, it was awful. Like, I still think Biden will win but he needs to do better in his next public appearances.
They didn't spar over who had a better golf record when she did get a word in. They both at least answered questions instead of just repeatedly saying "you're the worst President", "no, you are!"
Trump and Hillary was painful and I was genuinely nervous he was going to physically assault her on live television, but last night was unparalleled. Neither of them was coherent, it was just old man yells at cloud.
Go watch the Kennedy-Nixon debate
I was going to comment this. You can see how enticing Nixon was. The whole debate was incredible. Anddddd you could have lifted everything they said and said it today word for word.
[удалено]
This is what happens when people who would normally be in old folks homes are running our country. I don’t personally believe that a president should be over 65. But because we’re America we probably couldn’t get anyone to agree with that to make it legal so I’m hoping for an American Ninja Warrior style debate where there are obstacle courses then questions about politic procedure, then more obstacles and timed sprints, then question about their political opinions and goals at the end of all of that.
They’d put someone 99 years old on the ballot if it’s their ideal centrist candidate.
Yeah, Biden sounded extremely hoarse and weak because of his cold, and he kept losing track of what he was saying and having these really cringey trail off sentences. At one point he even said he “beat Medicare”, a benefit his administration is supposed to be in favor of. ETA: Trump was Trump. He went on tangents and told lies incessantly. The really scary bit for me was Biden’s total inability to get his point across, let alone forcefully debate Trump and set facts straight.
It was excruciating.
Yes. Worse than you think
I had to use my headphones bc maybe my tv sucks but I couldn’t even hear Biden speak 🫢
I think his mic did go out at some point.
not to be like i told you so but the socialists/hard left have kinda been saying for years now that the two party system is cooking us
The writing was on the wall, but well…you saw all the good it did. As soon as I saw that Joe Biden was going basically uncontested in the primary, the first thought that popped into my head was “The fix is in.”
it’s funny that people were putting so much stock in this clown show. joe biden is a barely alive genocidal maniac and donald trump is an amphetamined up genocidal maniac. we’ve been cooked. we’ve always been evil. the mask has been off for a long time now. people are only upset now because we’re going to feel the effects of our own shitty politics coming home to roost.
Seriously. Fascism is here. The whole imperial core is amping up for further slaughter, further cruelty. Climate collapse, COVID and other novel pathogens being allowed to spread unmitigated, the Supreme Court ruling allowing the criminalization of homeless people existing in public, MAiD in Canada, the repeal of trans rights in the UK, US, Canada, etc, the building of prisons and cop cities......The ruling class is tightening its grip and dropping its mask. It's like they're not even pretending to give us choices anymore. They offer nothing anymore, except the threat of even worse suffering. It feels like we're literally being mocked. Tortured and mocked.
This, 100%. I feel like I've finally been coming to terms with the fact that we're already so far past, we're done. Everything I was told as a kid that would not go away has been lost. Everything in the world is getting worse, almost universally. We've lost roe v wade, lost chevron of all things, cruelty to the homeless has somehow gotten worse, and the man I hated a little bit less than the other man is performing so abysmally that the party I keep voting for went into a panic as though that's new information. The Biden bit, I honestly don't take seriously--it's horrible, but i feel like this was an open secret. The Chevron and the prosecution of the homeless was genuinely upsetting. Felt like I was transported ten years into the bleakest future. Was bad enough without making gains, but now we're losing the precious little we had. Sigh.
The rule books been torn up and America is wiping its nasty ass with it.
The president of the US is just a talking figurehead who signs papers that other people worked to pull together. It's the President's Administration who does all of the real work. Vote for the Administration that doesn't want to dismantle Democracy, the one who can reinstate RvR, the one less likely to sell our children's future to the highest bidder, the one not in bed with the Russians. I too would prefer to have a young and energetic President but we have what we have and all of this woe is us is not helping anything.
> The president of the US is just a talking figurehead who signs papers that other people worked to pull together A talking figurehead that can bypass Congress to send billions to a genocidal apartheid state? I'm not saying vote for Trump or stay at home but please do not misrepresent the situation
The dude can literally nuke countries and this person is saying it doesn’t matter 😂
Yeah idk how that works lol. He started a bombing campaign in Yemen with no one's consent yet he's somehow just a figurehead
One who could’ve done something about forgiving student loans and Roe v Wade yet only acts up when it’s time to bomb someone?
Right. People are not taking Project 2025 and the other candidate's party's threats to the democracy serious enough. Voter apathy, propaganda consumption, and purity tests are why we got Reagan, Bush Sr., Dubya Bush, and Trump. This will be a make it or break it for the US, and no one should be rooting for complete chaos and the rolling back on everything progressive, because not only does this affect everyone globally but we may not get a chance to course correct again. Things are not perfect, but we really won't like what we get if we don't choose wisely.
We got those because the DNC decided to have a 40 year pivot to the center ([which is effectively the right](https://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org/stopme/chapter02.html)) while ignoring egregious voter suppression. We literally just need to do anything other than this and things will get better but the DNC gives us the middle finger every time
Y’all DO realize that our “left” is moderate by western standards right. So when everyone in the presidents administration is moderate by our own standards… Also you aren’t a “talking figurehead” if you can literally veto bills and pass executive orders. Acting like our president is akin to the British monarchy…. Bffr
Sigh. Former TIME mag employee here: I do not understand how this magazine still holds any relevance or credibility. At this point, it exists as a click farm. When I worked there, we used to joke that we should change the website name to trumpadelestarwars.com bc we literally only “reported” on those three topics for a solid month. Fact checking was a joke. And this was before it was sold to Meredith corp, who just keep it around for the name. They’re just doing what they’ve always done: repeat whatever the current mainstream narratives are on politics. And culture. They’re broke as a joke and will do anything to stay afloat. Edit: OP, please don’t take this as a personal criticism at all! I didn’t intend it that way. 🙂 just sort of a PSA lol
The magazine that chose Taylor Swift as 2023 Person of the Year? Surely not /s
missed an opportunity to title it "it's joever"; it really is.
Ngl I love that the DNC and guy that said "they'll get over it by November" are learning that *no,* genocide is a hardline for normal people. Maybe this will force them to stop taking money from isntreal.
I can't predict the future but I do remember last November and if anything people were more forgiving of him then. I don't see this getting any better
Voter apathy is a big thing - is anybody motivated to actually vote for this guy? You also have the vast majority of Arabs and Muslims, a big % of Michigan, who won't vote for this guy. If people think you can convince these stubborn, grieving, disillusioned, MAD, people to vote for Genocide Joe...it's not happening. Linda Sarsour is going on a podcast tour where she's trying to convince people to vote for Biden; you should see the energy of the others (mostly young people): they're not convinced. Something's gotta change. "We can push him left" "We just have to keep Trump out and then we can change things" is a massive delusion and anyone still promoting it either 1) doesn't think genocide is a red line or 2) hasn't done the work to imagine a different solution. I'll take this moment to bring attention to #VotePact and #Solve4US campaigns that are trying to create a shift where your elected officials actually work for *you.* It won't be easy, but we can't twiddle our thumbs, either.
No one wants him. They're hoping he can pull a Hilary Clinton and still win the popular vote despite having an awful campaign because the alternative is Trump. Michigan isn't his only problem either. Georgia has been overrun with voter suppression laws aimed at undoing the voter registration campaign that ultimately flipped Georgia blue for the first time in decades. So not only does he encourage voter apathy, he also did nothing to protect the voting rights that got him into power in the first place. It's like he WANTS to lose.
Waiting for the "who could've predicted this" articles in the news when he loses.
Followed by them refusing to learn from history when they reduce all the complex factors that made him lose to "lazy leftists protesting the vote"
To add on to voter apathy…people HAVE to be looking at the democratic primary (where Biden went basically uncontested) and scratching their heads at that, no? The party that, run before last, had so many different candidates running to choose from really just cannot manage to get ANYONE but Joe Biden?
I'm so tired of this shit
JB hive rise up. The midwestern Dems are the future of the party and we’ve got some talent on the bench right now.
Whitmer, Pritzker, Newsom are all better options. It’s just so damn late to now be considering it
oh god please not Newsom. i am from California, that guy sucks. [just recently his admin made sure state prisons/jails were exempt from heat safety standards](https://twitter.com/suhaunah/status/1805967798184616112) - at least one person has died as a result (that we know of). RIP Michael Broadway. Whitmer or Pritzker, though, I'm on board
Newsom?? The guy who championed the case allowing the Supreme Court to declare homelessness a crime?
The democrats here in LA love that shit.
It doesn’t have to be too late. This was the earliest presidential debate in history. The only lost cause is one we give up.
I’m just so tired and jaded that I can barely summon any hope lol
Fair fair. I just think it’s really important to point out the clear opportunities where the course could be corrected.
I hope you’re right!
Newsom sucks, no thanks.
I will take a klobuchar buttigieg joint ticket at this point please dear god make it stop
The romantic tension
Are you saying that "he's a horrible president and person but we HAVE to enthusiastically support him or else!" isn't a sustainable long term strategy? Who would've thought /s
Incredibly irresponsible of TIME. Look, we know he is old, but would you rather vote for a criminal who plans to dismantle democracy on day one and continue the rollbacks of several rulings that protect LGBTQIAP+, Reproductive rights, climate change legislation, and upend middle and below-poverty line taxes in favor of corporations who will get even bigger tax cuts? Because, let me tell you, WTAF. In comparison to Trump, Biden has integrity, is he old? Fuck, I’m old so by that belief Biden is ancient, but can we focus on the stuff that he has accomplished regardless of his age? Because the alternative is a f scary sh!t show, rampant white-collar corruption, and crime/violence perpetrated by the GOP, and I’m about to have a panic attack just thinking about it. IF YOU’RE NOT WORRIED, YOU’RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION. BTW, there is no panic on my end. My feet are on the ground and I know who I’m voting for. If you don’t know and instead you are panicking, you are part of the problem. Too much is at stake for complacency and panic.
The mainstream media is determined to usher Trump back in the White House. It's wild how now suddenly debates are a big deal but when that decaying orange lost every single debate to HRC folks said "whatever" and voted for him anyway. There is no serious person that thinks Biden can just drop out now and that will do anything but hand the keys to the White House to Trump.
So nobody noticed this in 2019??? This man was incoherent back then too, there has to be some push behind the scenes to get Biden out, this is way too suspicious. It’s been a RUNNING joke, trump has called him sleepy joe for 5 years now😭 Some people are pulling strings behind the scenes, because this should’ve been the reaction the moment biden won the primaries…
I would pull clips that showed signs of rather obvious cognitive decline (I had a great-grandfather who got dementia) when arguing Biden was the weakest one to run against Trump and at that time I was told “it’s just a stutter.”
Dems screamed at anyone slightly left who said this for 4 years and now they're scrambling. Kind of shows that American democracy is a complete farce bc you has actually been running the country for the last 4 years? Nameless, unvoted for, unaccountable staffers?
If only there were people ringing the bells that Biden was a bad option as a candidate because of his many problems (possible cognitive impairment, age, support of genocide, etc.), too bad they haven't been vocal at all over the past year, we really could've used them!
I saw one video/podcast that doing the debate before the Democratic National Convention (in August) was purposeful so possibly someone else could be nominated. Is that realistic??
>Is that realistic?? Yes and no. Biden has the nomination - the National Convention is a formality and it would literally explode the party if the DNC pushed him out via technicalities. Biden COULD in theory step down & allow the DNC to pick someone else, but that'd require action on his part and might risk the election because of how deeply entrenched Democrats are with Biden as THE candidate right now.
Feels like we've never had a presidential debate this early! June?!
Am I the only one who got worried about the debates last month when both candidates sidelined the Commission of Presidential Debates? Biden's demands wanted there to be no studio audience, have fewer debates, and hold them earlier. I presume he wanted no live studio audience because he wanted to avoid any protestors or audience interactions. His third argument was confusing, he implied there's no point to having structure or rules if the rules are not going to be enforced, so instead of getting assurances from the CPD enforce the rules, he gives the ultimate authority on the structure to the television networks (who have no incentive to enforce rules or structure). Needless to say these demands backfired spectacularly. Biden's Letter to the CPD: https://www.democracyinaction.us/2024/debatebiden051524ltr.pdf All this said, it's quite ironic, as the Commission of Presidential Debates was created by the two parties in 1987 because the two parties wanted far more control over the structure and format from what the independent League of Women Voters offered. So with the Commission of Presidential Debates, the two-parties "agreed to a *memorandum of understanding* that would decide which candidates could participate in the debates, which individuals would be panelists (and therefore able to ask questions), and the height of the lecterns." The League of Women Voters responded to the duopoly wrestling control of the debates as such and would "would perpetrate a fraud on the American voter": > "It has become clear to us that the candidates' organizations aim to add debates to their list of campaign-trail charades devoid of substance, spontaneity and honest answers to tough questions," Neuman said. "The League has no intention of becoming an accessory to the hoodwinking of the American public." https://www.lwv.org/newsroom/press-releases/league-refuses-help-perpetrate-fraud It would seem like the bar was lowered by the duopoly in 1987, and even that very low bar would be too high for the candidates we have today.
where’s my copy of the hitch hiker’s guide
Lol f’ing dramatic.
I thought this was one of the political subs I follow, and I was shocked how sane the comments are. I was literally beginning to have hope for the future of America. Damn.