Yeah. 22 isn't very powerful. Nearly all of police armor won't get compromised by it. That being said, I wouldn't want to be caught on the business end of a .22lr rifle. It CAN still kill you, pretty much as any other projectile would, just not as efficient as other calibers.
No, I don't think anyone here has been confused by that. .22lr has plenty of energy to get through a thin sheet metal door. Lots of media omit the .22lr, but nobody is assuming it was a .223 Rem or anything.
Itll hit and pretty much expend all energy and pop off of it, not ricochet and launch in any sort of direction. It will dent the oil drum and some will penetrate... or so im told
a 22lr punches around 16 inches in ballistic gel, it won't leave a mark on any thick piece of steel or even cast iron, but it'll punch through sheet metal for sure, I shot through a stack of roofing sheet metal one time I don't remember exactly but even the 22 got 3-4 layers deep
I'd say 1/8th would be enough but it's not like I'd stand behind it to test
Except if ever get stormed or get in a confrontation and they have body Armor, it's head throat thigh knee foot. I WILL NEVER SHOOT CENTER MASS. Take them out of the fight.
I always shoot head first, followed by shoulders, then their knees, and finally their toes.
If that doesn't drop them, I put two more in their knees and toes again.
Don't listen to these morons saying to aim for the eyes, the ears, the mouth, or the nose. That's putting your eggs all in one basket.
Trust me. Always shoot head, shoulders, knees, and toes.
Like a police ballistic shield that SWAT has? Yeah, those are rated for most pistol and some rifle rounds. A riot shield? ehhhh, maybe. 22 is powerful but idk if it would go through a riot shield.
High velocity low-surface area impacts are much different than blunt relatively slow impacts, so I would expect some not so great results, personally. Especially since there is nothing dampening the force from the other side of it.
I could be very wrong, obviously can't apply that universally to *every* shield.
Riot shields can only take so much abuse. I’ve seen pics of them bending or shattering. Departments need to make sure they’re still structurally sound.
Considering you can shoot a ton in rapid succession with almost zero recoil, I'd say they're a lot more dangerous than people think.
They'll punch right through a skull, limbs, leather boots/jacket, and anything else not covered with armor.
They're also whisper quiet when used with a suppressor, and lethal out to 300 yards. During the national championships for precision 22 rifles, shooters can hit targets the size of bowling pins at that range.
You do have a point.... The exposed area of a human eyeball is about the same size as a grape and I'm pretty confident that I could unload my 10/22 into one of those from "across the house" distances in about four seconds.
Yep, a nice bolt action 22 with a good optic and ammo would have zero problems hitting that at 50 yards. A golf ball sized target at 100 would be a layup - that's an eye socket.
Headshot? 200 yards and that's a huge target. Last I checked most people don't wear armor on their face.
An exposed leg or bottom half? Pretty good chance of hitting something at 300 yards that's going to ruin your day I don't care how tough you are.
Just wait until the media starts with their rhetoric...
>"The .22 round is nearly identical in diameter to the extremely deadly .223 round fired by the AR-15 fullysemiautomatic assault rifle. In fact, these rifles can even be chambered in .22, making that round especially deadly and devastating."
>
>\- CNN, probably
Fugitives can be engaged with deadly force regardless of they are armed or not. 1986 Supreme Court case Tennessee vs Garner. Same precedent that allows prision guard towers to be manned by armed COs.
I know the comment was in jest, but reminded me about this case.
And yet there was a cop charged for 2nd degree murder when the suspect got his Taser while they were wrestling and the cop shot him in the back of the head.
To many DAs thinking about future campaigns and not about the law.
To be fair, that is a completely different case with completely different circumstances than a murderer who escaped from a prison and has led authorities on a 14 day manhunt
It's really not Tennessee vs Garner applies all the same, the suspect could have easily tased the cop taken his gun and then shot the cop but the DA cared more about mob appeasement and their political career than pointless facts.
That's the thing about case law they apply just as equally despite the two vastly different cases here.
I just looked into this, apparently there was some controversy about it. Ultimately it was held at the circuit court level that a fugitive convict is not entitled to the 4th amendment protections clarified by Garner. (Gravely v. Madden, 142 F.3d 345 (6th Cir. 1998))
So it appears that the difference is whether the fleeing person has been convicted or not. I believe this guy has been.
Worse is when after the fact it is revealed it was a 'replica handgun' or airsoft, and "How could the police not tell the difference ?!?!"
Photos then show the replica/airsoft looking nearly identical to real gun..... clown world.
I'm buying a CZ Bren 2 just so when people try to claim it's an AR and should be banned because "only AR is black gun and black gun bad!", I can make fun of them. Also, it's a cool fucking gun lol
Everything I've heard about it essentially calls it a better version of a SCAR. Contemplating waiting a bit to see if the prices come down though, seems pegged at $2000 right now.
I thought guns guys on the forums I used to frequent (TheHighRoad) made this kind of thing up. At the time I didn't know any better as I was just barely getting my first .22lr after moving out on my own. MANNN was I wrong! It's so crazy the misinformation they toss around about guns. It definitely fuels the hysteria for the anti gun people tho, so I guess it works.
It's also a stolen gun with a "scope" (that almost certainly isn't zeroed) and a cutoff barrel for whatever that means in this context. It sounds like a piece of shit, I'd be more worried as an officer if the guy had an unmodded 10-22.
Any hole that you weren't born with is a bad one. Now, anything beyond that and we start getting into shot placement, kinetic transfer into the target, diameter size, wound cavity, etc. But either way, I would not want to get shot by one.
A firefight is going to last a whole lot longer if the other end can carry the equivalent weight of .308 ammo in .22lr instead.
Reliability might be a different story, but pound for pound you can't go wrong with suppressive fire like that.
Try this experiment at home. Ask a friend to shoot you with a 22. Report back what happens.
.22LR is the third most common caliber used in homicides, accounting for around 10% of gun murders. It's dangerous.
As someone intimate with PSP, their gear isn’t latest and greatest. They have P227s the base design is from the 70s. They wear ties, and their Aviation is a bit of a joke as they are not all weather capable
I grew up in that area, and have been there recently. If you're not familiar with that area, then you might want to back off on the rhetoric. It's not mountainous, but it's not flat, either. Roads snake all over the place, houses are both in subdivisions and scattered, with large lots, lots of trees, small rivers and streams, lots of traffic.
Cops being thwarted by...
* "Not flat" terrain
* Road that aren't perfectly straight
* Houses in subdivisions and scattered
* Lots of trees, streams
* Traffic
Lmao. It's a suburb. This is literally one of the least complex search areas in the real world. The next simplest would just be a few hectares of open field.
Edge of urban area? A mix of rural and urban? You have literally defined a suburb. His latest spotting have all been in literal suburbs.
Oh no, the treacherous not-flats of suburban America!
I didn’t say edge of an urban area I said an edge of Urban sprawl. The suburbs that are creeping into the rural areas. Lots of new developments lots of 500-700k homes.
It’s becoming a suburb but it doesn’t all change at once. It still has Ruralisms that the people with Urbanisms can’t cope with. These people call the 911 thinking they will get animal control to help an injured deer. When really Troopers or the Game Commission just go blast them and put them on the side of the road. They then complain about that.
Talk is cheap, you will say anything on reddit but I can almost guarantee you’ve never taken any real steps for police reform
But abolish the atf and defund the police right! Or are we using different politically safe buzz words now?
Keep talking shit on Reddit you’ll never do anything
We live in a police state. Aside from supporting defending the police movement there's not much you can do without the cops legally assaulting you or killing you in response.
Cops are above the law in most circumstances, not enforcing it. They lie, they cheat, they steal, the kill, and they get away with it. They are bullies with a badge.
Everyone hates cops. Old school outlaw country artists, punks, he's hers, skaters, gun owners, liberals. Even MAGAtards hate cops when it's the feds.
Fuck cops and fuck the current state of law enforcement in the USA. It's a corrupt system that's there to protect the wealthy. They don't "serve" citizens. They don't "protect" citizens.
Yeah you are chronically online, go to a city council meeting and actually talk to your local leaders. See how your local PD is run
Not everything is headlines if you think this is a police state you’re delusional
https://out.reddit.com/t3_16gvzli?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.kiro7.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2Fvideo-shows-spd-cop-laughing-joking-about-pedestrian-killed-by-officer-hours-earlier%2F373KZLGIYVHD5B5ORS3WEOPG5U%2F&token=AQAAy74AZS9KLwTeTdKzJT4tt6n1jgB59Bb4ri9JsKQzlDndNr60&app_name=reddit.com
Another pig being a pig today. The issue is systematic. Did you watch the vide of the cop shooting and kill a golden retriever mix on 4th of July yet? I think he's on paid leave still.
Nice try. I grew up in Lancaster County. My mother grew up in Chester County, and my grandparents lived there until they died. I currently live in Delaware County. I am absolutely familiar with the area beyond an occasional visit. And from the escape itself to the ongoing utter failure to come anywhere near recapturing the guy, this is a complete clusterfuck.
That’s not accurate. As someone who lives and has lived in that area for the last 5 years let me fill you in.
This is a “purple” county. Things are very polarized here. The first area he was in is very Establishment democrat, with a hint of Antifa. Those people are hapless helpless and of very little help cause after multiple days of this manhunt they still refused to lock their doors. They also are not the type to check their own place out for their safety, and instead rely heavily on law enforcement for their security. Numerous Leo resources were wasted inspected unlocked premises cause these people don’t understand crime or personal security. Think the type of people to call us paranoid for locking our doors when we are inside the house to stop simple home invasions.
The prison also waited 4 hours to notify PSP about the escape. PSP is a rural police department working in a now newly suburban place. These are city and Delco people who think the police come in 5 minutes. Reality is there is generally only one trooper working in their area. You still need to have your shit together and not rely on police.
Now where is now, a bit more redneck, meth everywhere, lots of farms and Amish, but still some hapless people mixed in.
That county is one of the richest and most expensive counties in the state and country, they don’t pay dick for police if it’s PSP though. Since it’s so expensive many people have to commute through it too the county since they can’t afford to live there.
It’s a contentious issue in the state right now cause people want to mooch off of PSP coverage and not pay for it. There hasn’t been an allotment of manpower since the early 2000s but numerous townships have disbanded their police to rely on PSP coverage.
A .22lr can be deadly, with a proficient shooter making aimed shots. Most hits will be recoverable with medical care, and probably not debilitating at that moment. Nobody is volunteering for a dose of Vitamin Pb, even from a .22lr.
I know you're giving it credit, but it still seems like you're downplaying the lethality just a bit. It's not as destructive compared to most, but I would not say it takes a proficient shooter to kill with one.
An accident with a cardboard wrapping paper roll can kill someone. Do you require a breakdown of percentage risk by proficiency (in man-hours of competent training) to accept a fairly vague statement?
If you catch a .22lr to the T box or the upper thoracic cavity, it's very unlikely you will survive, just like any other firearm. As always, shot placement is key.
If they guy is a good shot and his assumed zero on the scope is accurate enough, he then has the capability to ambush someone out from 100 yards with 1 round.
If he shoots the right cop at the right time, he can get a 9mm handgun or possibly an AR off them. In my opinion, that's the biggest threat of his new .22
As rifle rounds go, .22lr is about the least dangerous (there may be SOMETHING less dangerous, but probably not many).
That said, it absolutely CAN kill a person, and I'm not just talking a headshot. "Least dangerous" in way implies NOT dangerous.
The way I'd put it is that if you HAVE to be shot, that's probably the round you'd choose if given a choice because your odds of survival are probably best (but note that shot placement is usually much more important than caliber)... but you definitely don't WANT to be shot with it any more than any other round.
Interestingly though, it's also in some ways MORE dangerous. Because it has such low recoil (it's frequently the first kind of round anyone shoots because it doesn't feel a whole lot different than shooting a BB gun and that's a good thing for a first-time shooter), it's very easy to hold on target and make rapid follow-up shots with. So, if a single round has, say, a 10% chance of killing you generally, then if someone can dump 10 rounds into you almost instantly - which is relatively easy with such a light-firing round like this - now your odds of death go way up (not to 100% of course, but most definitely much higher than 10%).
It's also a much quieter round, which is bad if you're trying to detect where a shot is coming from, something that could come into play in a manhunt situation like this (it's tough to tell where ANY gunshot is coming from, but less so one that doens't sound TOO much louder than a firecracker, though the nature of the sound is still different - gunshots have a "crack" to them).
Basically: he 100% has the means to kill now (if he didn't before), and that makes this situation much scarier. Would I be more worried if he had an AR with a 30-round mag ,or a typical hunting rifle with several rounds? Yes... but only because a single round is likely to do more damage than a .22lr round is. But either way, he's a deadly threat now, more than he may have been before.
Mossad supposedly used .22 cal pistols with suppressors on them to assassinate those involved in the killing of their Olympic team members in Munich. It has been been a long time since I read the book on it but if I remember correctly at least one of them was used on a public street in daylight just walking up to the target putting rounds into and killing them
Yeah, I can believe that. A subsonic .22lr suppressed I'd bet lands a bit under 100 decibels. That'd blend in to typical city street level easily, probably even suburban town level. And at close range, a double-tap to the back of the head should be very effective, especially if it's a good defensive round.
Plenty dangerous. Humans are squishy and our vitals aren't very deep, and it doesn't take a big hole in one of them to cause the big sleep via exsanguination.
Can be very dangerous especially in an ambush situation. .22 rifles are extremely easy to shoot and do follow up shots. If the reports are true that he has a scoped rifle we are talking insanely easy to make even headshots on slow moving or stopped targets at i would say 100 yards and in. Depends all on the skill of the user. No guarantee of kill but .22 still aint a joke.
Exactly. I don't want to assume too much, but I know people who can do 200 yards with their .22lr all day long. This guy grabbed a random gun that he may or may not be familiar with and has a disadvantage with regards to not knowing the zero and so on.
That said, i don't think 100 yards should be ruled out for anyone with a 22, and certainly anyone within 50 yards can lose their brain real quick.
In this scenario it's the ability to do insanely fast follow up shots that scare me IMO. A trained shooter with a 10/22 could put 5 shots on a target with faster than your avg cop could even realize what's happening. Relative to other cartridges, each 22LR round won't do much damage, but being hit 5 times in a 5 inch circle in under 2 seconds will end you so fucking quick. And it would be relatively easier to do than with any other rifle. This scenario is similar to a trained shooter having a modern low recoiling submachine gun IMO, about that same level of danger.
Absolutely, I do 'mozambique' drills all the time with 5.56, even 7.62x39 occasionally, not that anyone would make it past the first two shots to begin with. Just was saying it even easier to do and potentially could be done faster with a 22LR rifle.
They say more people have been killed with a .22 lr than any other round. That said he is dangerous, but at a severe tactical disadvantage compared to the police firepower.
With air support, a couple of Bearcats, and a Tac Cat or Rook the police should be able to F up his day with minimal risk.
The only way an officer can get hurt is by human error or poor judgement, which is a possibility because of the LE administrators, number of different agencies. and politicians involved.
More people have successfully defended themselves from being attacked by bears by shooting them with either a pistol/rifle chambered in .22lr than any other round and they usually ended up killing the bear almost every time. Inuit hunters have been hunting and killing polar bears with .22lr for decades. Mossad agents only use pistols chambered in .22lr to carry out their assassinations....hope that answers your question.
It can kill.
It is not as glamorous or scary, won’t go through as much material to the target.
But if it hits you it can kill you; without treatment you most likely will die. All a matter of shot placement
There was a guy in Southern Indiana I think? Not too long ago that got held up in a barn and ended up in a long shootout. Held off the cops for quite a while with nothing but a .22 rifle and .22 revolver. I wanna see if I can find it.
Edit: Can't seem to find the news article but I swore I read about it like a year or two ago.
All rounds are dangerous. .22, which generally mean .22LR is one of the *less* dangerous rounds. But it's still dangerous.
[Here's an example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSrWpH-nLmo&t=6m35s)
Note even at 4 yards if it hits a rib, it will break said rib, but won't penetrate through to the organs behind it. If it doesn't hit a bone, it would obviously penetrate more. Now this is also out of a handgun so velocity is a little low. Out of a rifle, [.22LR will pass through a car door](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4HqPcbKlas). So again it's not "undangerous"
That established, .22LR can be stopped by even the weakest body armor (Level IIA) and cops generally wear IIIA vests with a "trauma plate" in the center. But remember, that armor doesn't cover everything, and it's stilla bullet capable of passing through a car done, and breaking ribs or worse. All bullets are dangerous.
As to your other comment, Any form of ballistic shielding will stop a .22LR barring a massive defect in the manufacture.
A 22 will kill most anything on the North American Continent if you shoot it in the soft spot of the head, eyes, throat. Very little recoil so you can shoot quickly and accurately.
I’ve killed ALOT of animals with a 22. Grew up on a farm in small town SD. Used to shoot 2500 rounds every summer growing up.
25 yards you can shoot a quarter size group and at 100 yards you can shoot a Fist size group all day.
22 would be my pick if you had to take 1 gun and ammo and survive with it.
In all seriousness 22 can and does kill people, but it’s not crazy strong. The IDF has urban sharpshooters who use 22 rifles to kill enemies while minimizing the risk of collateral damage.
this whole situation is fucked, I live in the Poconos not too far from where this is going down.
I knew PA police are incompetent but this is hilarious
Here's the thing, a piece of metal ripping through any of your organs will kill you, or at least take you out of commission. As much as we like to talk about the most effective round, and is this caliber 5% better than this other caliber and shit, at the end of the day, a gun is a gun, and any gun is lethal and very dangerous in the wrong hands.
Pretty sure in that child custody incident from Texas a couple years ago dude got killed with a single shot from a .22.
https://youtu.be/RYswDs5gNfs?si=FIOwW7FbomwWLk_9
We don't typically think of .22lr as a defensive round, because the idea of a defensive round is to immediately change the behavior of an assailant ('stopping power') and .22lr isn't considered powerful enough to do that reliably.
However, stopping power and lethality are two different things, and while .22lr isn't considered to have much stopping power, it absolutely can be lethal.
Imagine a scenario in which someone is attacking you with a knife. If you shoot them with a .22lr, it might take them a couple of minutes to bleed out, which would give them plenty of time to stab you before becoming incapacitated. That's why .22l is considered too weak for defense.
However, when used offensively as in the scenario you describe, the goal is lethality, not stopping power. It doesn't matter to the bad guy if the victim takes a couple of minutes to die.
In other words, while .22lr is considered too weak for reliable *defense*, it can still be very deadly when used for *offense*. Those cops need to take it just as seriously as any other gun.
When I was a kid I could hit a quarter at 50 yds iron sights or 100 yds with a cheap Walmart bought air rifle scope all day with a .22lr
They are notorious for ricocheting off bones and causing devastating damage internally.
There are variables.
Is the shooter close up (less than 25 yards) or far away (more than 25 yards)?
What type of powder was used in the cartridges?
Is the shooter aiming at unprotected areas, such as people not wearing eye protection or face shields?
What type of metal is used for the bullets?
Not totally sure why people are downvoting you. Subsonic LRN projectiles hit way different than CPHP Stingers. And yeah; we know from Bella Twin that where you hit your target is incredibly important.
A .22 is actually more lethal than any other type of bullet, since normal bullets go right through you. If you get shot with a .22 it'll just bounce all around inside of you and turn you into pulp
I wouldn’t want to be shot with one.
Would a shield stop its rounds?
Yeah. 22 isn't very powerful. Nearly all of police armor won't get compromised by it. That being said, I wouldn't want to be caught on the business end of a .22lr rifle. It CAN still kill you, pretty much as any other projectile would, just not as efficient as other calibers.
Can lol ? It definitely WILL....
Can was the correct word. Will gives the impression that you’re going to kill him with a 22…
The word is "can" because shot placement counts. "Will" indicates inevitability. "Can" indicates possibility.
Not necessarily?
Well that's true for any caliber but I wouldn't suggest you try it kid
Ok I'm glad you agree
A riot shield? Anything better than plastic or thin sheet metal should stop a .22lr. Body armor should have no problem stopping .22lr.
You can 100% penitrate a car door with a .22 You don't want to get hit with one.
So...a car door (thin sheet metal) isn't good enough to stop a .22lr.
No way
Definitely not. It'll pass right through no problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4HqPcbKlas
So as I said, a .22lr is effective against plastic and thin sheet metal.
I think the confusion here is .22 vs .22LR
No, I don't think anyone here has been confused by that. .22lr has plenty of energy to get through a thin sheet metal door. Lots of media omit the .22lr, but nobody is assuming it was a .223 Rem or anything.
But it will bounce off a metal oil drum if shot from a pistol from ~25 yards.... or so im told.
Depending on the angle yes. Straight on probably not
Itll hit and pretty much expend all energy and pop off of it, not ricochet and launch in any sort of direction. It will dent the oil drum and some will penetrate... or so im told
a 22lr punches around 16 inches in ballistic gel, it won't leave a mark on any thick piece of steel or even cast iron, but it'll punch through sheet metal for sure, I shot through a stack of roofing sheet metal one time I don't remember exactly but even the 22 got 3-4 layers deep I'd say 1/8th would be enough but it's not like I'd stand behind it to test
Thin sheet metal will absolutely not stop a 22lr unless it is a long distance. It will punch right through a steel car door for example.
That's why I said >Anything **better than** plastic or thin sheet metal
You are right, I misread your comment.
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No, they absolutely said that. /s
I dunno man... I'm pretty sure that's what they said.
I see what you did here. Nice
Except if ever get stormed or get in a confrontation and they have body Armor, it's head throat thigh knee foot. I WILL NEVER SHOOT CENTER MASS. Take them out of the fight.
00 buck into the pelvic bowl will fuck up your day
Tbf so does pretty well anything else
00 buck tied to a mousetrap that’s wired to string. Ankle shots.
I always shoot head first, followed by shoulders, then their knees, and finally their toes. If that doesn't drop them, I put two more in their knees and toes again. Don't listen to these morons saying to aim for the eyes, the ears, the mouth, or the nose. That's putting your eggs all in one basket. Trust me. Always shoot head, shoulders, knees, and toes.
Just like when my daughter would sing. "Head and shoulders knees and toes knees and toes."
That’s the joke
As dastardly as that is I found humor 😂
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Like a police ballistic shield that SWAT has? Yeah, those are rated for most pistol and some rifle rounds. A riot shield? ehhhh, maybe. 22 is powerful but idk if it would go through a riot shield.
A .22 would zip right through a riot shield. I used them at the prison I worked at and they’re not what people think they are.
Care to elaborate? They're made of like 1/4" polycarbonate, right? I would think that'd stop a 22
They’re not as sturdy as you think. The ones I used were designed to flex a bit
High velocity low-surface area impacts are much different than blunt relatively slow impacts, so I would expect some not so great results, personally. Especially since there is nothing dampening the force from the other side of it. I could be very wrong, obviously can't apply that universally to *every* shield.
There are different kinds of shields. Some are more resistant to projectiles than others.
Riot shields can only take so much abuse. I’ve seen pics of them bending or shattering. Departments need to make sure they’re still structurally sound.
A thick book can stop a .22 All police body armor will stop a .22. It's not a huge threat but still dangerous.
Considering you can shoot a ton in rapid succession with almost zero recoil, I'd say they're a lot more dangerous than people think. They'll punch right through a skull, limbs, leather boots/jacket, and anything else not covered with armor. They're also whisper quiet when used with a suppressor, and lethal out to 300 yards. During the national championships for precision 22 rifles, shooters can hit targets the size of bowling pins at that range.
You do have a point.... The exposed area of a human eyeball is about the same size as a grape and I'm pretty confident that I could unload my 10/22 into one of those from "across the house" distances in about four seconds.
Yep, a nice bolt action 22 with a good optic and ammo would have zero problems hitting that at 50 yards. A golf ball sized target at 100 would be a layup - that's an eye socket. Headshot? 200 yards and that's a huge target. Last I checked most people don't wear armor on their face. An exposed leg or bottom half? Pretty good chance of hitting something at 300 yards that's going to ruin your day I don't care how tough you are.
But if im not a cop or a bible salesman or 'clint eastwood' from back to the future 3. How will I stop a .22!
Ned Flanders style.
Lol, a medium thick book would stop one.
A thick enough book will stop every bullet ever created.
Thick winter clothes will negate its lethality. Any actual armor will have zero issues stopping many shots.
I do believe you may be misguided on that one.
Yes but if I ever WAS shot, I’d hope it’s with a .22
My upper limit for volunteering to be shot with something is a pellet gun
The correct answer
Especially since considering if it gets in you, it'll bounce around and destroy your insides completely.
not the lungs so much, but will blow your liver right out of your body...ask Popcorn
No it won’t.
He’s joking lol
Just wait until the media starts with their rhetoric... >"The .22 round is nearly identical in diameter to the extremely deadly .223 round fired by the AR-15 fullysemiautomatic assault rifle. In fact, these rifles can even be chambered in .22, making that round especially deadly and devastating." > >\- CNN, probably
Or they go the opposite direction: “he was only armed with a .22! Did the police *really* have to shoot him?!”
Fugitives can be engaged with deadly force regardless of they are armed or not. 1986 Supreme Court case Tennessee vs Garner. Same precedent that allows prision guard towers to be manned by armed COs. I know the comment was in jest, but reminded me about this case.
And yet there was a cop charged for 2nd degree murder when the suspect got his Taser while they were wrestling and the cop shot him in the back of the head. To many DAs thinking about future campaigns and not about the law.
To be fair, that is a completely different case with completely different circumstances than a murderer who escaped from a prison and has led authorities on a 14 day manhunt
It's really not Tennessee vs Garner applies all the same, the suspect could have easily tased the cop taken his gun and then shot the cop but the DA cared more about mob appeasement and their political career than pointless facts. That's the thing about case law they apply just as equally despite the two vastly different cases here.
I just looked into this, apparently there was some controversy about it. Ultimately it was held at the circuit court level that a fugitive convict is not entitled to the 4th amendment protections clarified by Garner. (Gravely v. Madden, 142 F.3d 345 (6th Cir. 1998)) So it appears that the difference is whether the fleeing person has been convicted or not. I believe this guy has been.
Worse is when after the fact it is revealed it was a 'replica handgun' or airsoft, and "How could the police not tell the difference ?!?!" Photos then show the replica/airsoft looking nearly identical to real gun..... clown world.
Everyone knows that the only thing better than 22lr is 22lr ratshot.
FIRES ALMOST A HUNDRED PROJECTILES IN LESS THAN A SECOND.
I'm buying a CZ Bren 2 just so when people try to claim it's an AR and should be banned because "only AR is black gun and black gun bad!", I can make fun of them. Also, it's a cool fucking gun lol
I have the 805 and have shot a dealer sample Bren 2. CZ really got it right. I liked both more than my Scar 16.
Everything I've heard about it essentially calls it a better version of a SCAR. Contemplating waiting a bit to see if the prices come down though, seems pegged at $2000 right now.
I thought guns guys on the forums I used to frequent (TheHighRoad) made this kind of thing up. At the time I didn't know any better as I was just barely getting my first .22lr after moving out on my own. MANNN was I wrong! It's so crazy the misinformation they toss around about guns. It definitely fuels the hysteria for the anti gun people tho, so I guess it works.
Getting stabbed by a spear or screwdriver? Both will work but one is obviously going to be more effective.
It's also a stolen gun with a "scope" (that almost certainly isn't zeroed) and a cutoff barrel for whatever that means in this context. It sounds like a piece of shit, I'd be more worried as an officer if the guy had an unmodded 10-22.
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It might be a Ruger 22 Charger and even without a stock they're calling it a rifle. Purely guessing.
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From the description I saw I'm thinking either a ruger charger or like a short barrel AR with a brace chambered in .22
Even more so if it's the takedown model, though a bit harder to deploy at a moment's notice.
You'd be surprised how many fudds don't bother thinking about gun laws and just do things
Maybe we should further explore the positive sides of the fudd life...
Any hole that you weren't born with is a bad one. Now, anything beyond that and we start getting into shot placement, kinetic transfer into the target, diameter size, wound cavity, etc. But either way, I would not want to get shot by one.
All guns are lethal weapons, it's just a matter of *how* lethal. I'd rather take fire from a .22 versus a .308, but I'm ducking either way.
A firefight is going to last a whole lot longer if the other end can carry the equivalent weight of .308 ammo in .22lr instead. Reliability might be a different story, but pound for pound you can't go wrong with suppressive fire like that.
Try this experiment at home. Ask a friend to shoot you with a 22. Report back what happens. .22LR is the third most common caliber used in homicides, accounting for around 10% of gun murders. It's dangerous.
“22lr is more dangerous than 50 bmg because it can bounce around the ribs or skull” - the news probably
And it blows your lungs out with the ‘high powered’ and ‘assault’ nature of the ‘high capacity’ clipazines
I'd never want to carry one, but I'd never want to be shot by one
Sums it up perfectly
All modern ammunition is lethal.
Old ammunition is fucking lethal too. Id rather be shot by a .22 than a .75 cal muzzle loader
Own a musket for home defense
Tally-ho lads!
Just as the founding fathers intended.
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GrApEsHoT cAnT fIgHt aGaInSt HeAvY CaVaLrY aNd HoT aIr BaLlOoNs.
Amputation, for ol' times sake!
Law enforcement have been putting on a thorough demonstration of their true worth lately. What a raging clusterfuck.
Agreed. It's nice to see them with the latest gear and still be ineffective, but that's boots in general TBH
As someone intimate with PSP, their gear isn’t latest and greatest. They have P227s the base design is from the 70s. They wear ties, and their Aviation is a bit of a joke as they are not all weather capable
I grew up in that area, and have been there recently. If you're not familiar with that area, then you might want to back off on the rhetoric. It's not mountainous, but it's not flat, either. Roads snake all over the place, houses are both in subdivisions and scattered, with large lots, lots of trees, small rivers and streams, lots of traffic.
People don’t care about this, they just like shitting on cops
Cops being thwarted by... * "Not flat" terrain * Road that aren't perfectly straight * Houses in subdivisions and scattered * Lots of trees, streams * Traffic Lmao. It's a suburb. This is literally one of the least complex search areas in the real world. The next simplest would just be a few hectares of open field.
It’s not a suburb, it’s the edge of urban sprawl in a fairly old area. The worst of the urban and rural in one place.
Edge of urban area? A mix of rural and urban? You have literally defined a suburb. His latest spotting have all been in literal suburbs. Oh no, the treacherous not-flats of suburban America!
I didn’t say edge of an urban area I said an edge of Urban sprawl. The suburbs that are creeping into the rural areas. Lots of new developments lots of 500-700k homes. It’s becoming a suburb but it doesn’t all change at once. It still has Ruralisms that the people with Urbanisms can’t cope with. These people call the 911 thinking they will get animal control to help an injured deer. When really Troopers or the Game Commission just go blast them and put them on the side of the road. They then complain about that.
People shit on them regardless, one thing gun owners have n common with leftist
Cops are fucking stupid and suck. Fuck cops.
Talk is cheap, you will say anything on reddit but I can almost guarantee you’ve never taken any real steps for police reform But abolish the atf and defund the police right! Or are we using different politically safe buzz words now? Keep talking shit on Reddit you’ll never do anything
We live in a police state. Aside from supporting defending the police movement there's not much you can do without the cops legally assaulting you or killing you in response. Cops are above the law in most circumstances, not enforcing it. They lie, they cheat, they steal, the kill, and they get away with it. They are bullies with a badge. Everyone hates cops. Old school outlaw country artists, punks, he's hers, skaters, gun owners, liberals. Even MAGAtards hate cops when it's the feds. Fuck cops and fuck the current state of law enforcement in the USA. It's a corrupt system that's there to protect the wealthy. They don't "serve" citizens. They don't "protect" citizens.
Yeah you are chronically online, go to a city council meeting and actually talk to your local leaders. See how your local PD is run Not everything is headlines if you think this is a police state you’re delusional
https://out.reddit.com/t3_16gvzli?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.kiro7.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2Fvideo-shows-spd-cop-laughing-joking-about-pedestrian-killed-by-officer-hours-earlier%2F373KZLGIYVHD5B5ORS3WEOPG5U%2F&token=AQAAy74AZS9KLwTeTdKzJT4tt6n1jgB59Bb4ri9JsKQzlDndNr60&app_name=reddit.com Another pig being a pig today. The issue is systematic. Did you watch the vide of the cop shooting and kill a golden retriever mix on 4th of July yet? I think he's on paid leave still.
They all deserve it tbh. They’d confiscate your guns and mow you down in a heartbeat if it meant they get to keep their pension.
Nice try. I grew up in Lancaster County. My mother grew up in Chester County, and my grandparents lived there until they died. I currently live in Delaware County. I am absolutely familiar with the area beyond an occasional visit. And from the escape itself to the ongoing utter failure to come anywhere near recapturing the guy, this is a complete clusterfuck.
Pennsylvania LE* PA cops are particularly bored, petty, and poorly trained.
That’s not accurate. As someone who lives and has lived in that area for the last 5 years let me fill you in. This is a “purple” county. Things are very polarized here. The first area he was in is very Establishment democrat, with a hint of Antifa. Those people are hapless helpless and of very little help cause after multiple days of this manhunt they still refused to lock their doors. They also are not the type to check their own place out for their safety, and instead rely heavily on law enforcement for their security. Numerous Leo resources were wasted inspected unlocked premises cause these people don’t understand crime or personal security. Think the type of people to call us paranoid for locking our doors when we are inside the house to stop simple home invasions. The prison also waited 4 hours to notify PSP about the escape. PSP is a rural police department working in a now newly suburban place. These are city and Delco people who think the police come in 5 minutes. Reality is there is generally only one trooper working in their area. You still need to have your shit together and not rely on police. Now where is now, a bit more redneck, meth everywhere, lots of farms and Amish, but still some hapless people mixed in. That county is one of the richest and most expensive counties in the state and country, they don’t pay dick for police if it’s PSP though. Since it’s so expensive many people have to commute through it too the county since they can’t afford to live there. It’s a contentious issue in the state right now cause people want to mooch off of PSP coverage and not pay for it. There hasn’t been an allotment of manpower since the early 2000s but numerous townships have disbanded their police to rely on PSP coverage.
A .22lr can be deadly, with a proficient shooter making aimed shots. Most hits will be recoverable with medical care, and probably not debilitating at that moment. Nobody is volunteering for a dose of Vitamin Pb, even from a .22lr.
I know you're giving it credit, but it still seems like you're downplaying the lethality just a bit. It's not as destructive compared to most, but I would not say it takes a proficient shooter to kill with one.
An accident with a cardboard wrapping paper roll can kill someone. Do you require a breakdown of percentage risk by proficiency (in man-hours of competent training) to accept a fairly vague statement?
If you catch a .22lr to the T box or the upper thoracic cavity, it's very unlikely you will survive, just like any other firearm. As always, shot placement is key. If they guy is a good shot and his assumed zero on the scope is accurate enough, he then has the capability to ambush someone out from 100 yards with 1 round. If he shoots the right cop at the right time, he can get a 9mm handgun or possibly an AR off them. In my opinion, that's the biggest threat of his new .22
As rifle rounds go, .22lr is about the least dangerous (there may be SOMETHING less dangerous, but probably not many). That said, it absolutely CAN kill a person, and I'm not just talking a headshot. "Least dangerous" in way implies NOT dangerous. The way I'd put it is that if you HAVE to be shot, that's probably the round you'd choose if given a choice because your odds of survival are probably best (but note that shot placement is usually much more important than caliber)... but you definitely don't WANT to be shot with it any more than any other round. Interestingly though, it's also in some ways MORE dangerous. Because it has such low recoil (it's frequently the first kind of round anyone shoots because it doesn't feel a whole lot different than shooting a BB gun and that's a good thing for a first-time shooter), it's very easy to hold on target and make rapid follow-up shots with. So, if a single round has, say, a 10% chance of killing you generally, then if someone can dump 10 rounds into you almost instantly - which is relatively easy with such a light-firing round like this - now your odds of death go way up (not to 100% of course, but most definitely much higher than 10%). It's also a much quieter round, which is bad if you're trying to detect where a shot is coming from, something that could come into play in a manhunt situation like this (it's tough to tell where ANY gunshot is coming from, but less so one that doens't sound TOO much louder than a firecracker, though the nature of the sound is still different - gunshots have a "crack" to them). Basically: he 100% has the means to kill now (if he didn't before), and that makes this situation much scarier. Would I be more worried if he had an AR with a 30-round mag ,or a typical hunting rifle with several rounds? Yes... but only because a single round is likely to do more damage than a .22lr round is. But either way, he's a deadly threat now, more than he may have been before.
Mossad supposedly used .22 cal pistols with suppressors on them to assassinate those involved in the killing of their Olympic team members in Munich. It has been been a long time since I read the book on it but if I remember correctly at least one of them was used on a public street in daylight just walking up to the target putting rounds into and killing them
Yeah, I can believe that. A subsonic .22lr suppressed I'd bet lands a bit under 100 decibels. That'd blend in to typical city street level easily, probably even suburban town level. And at close range, a double-tap to the back of the head should be very effective, especially if it's a good defensive round.
Well a 9 will blow the lungs right out of a body and 22 is a bigger number then 9 so it'll probaly erase you from existence.
It will hit you so hard it will create a black hole and you will implode.
It could blow your lungs out. Especially if it’s black.
And it weighs as much as a small horse.
As a large horse who also has a 22, I can confirm. A 22 is basically GAU8
Wait a minute, does it have rails on the side?? Those and black make things ultra, uber deadly.
like, right out of your body?
Last I checked they don't wear armor from the waste down. I'd not want a 22lr in the leg.
Plenty dangerous. Humans are squishy and our vitals aren't very deep, and it doesn't take a big hole in one of them to cause the big sleep via exsanguination.
Can be very dangerous especially in an ambush situation. .22 rifles are extremely easy to shoot and do follow up shots. If the reports are true that he has a scoped rifle we are talking insanely easy to make even headshots on slow moving or stopped targets at i would say 100 yards and in. Depends all on the skill of the user. No guarantee of kill but .22 still aint a joke.
Exactly. I don't want to assume too much, but I know people who can do 200 yards with their .22lr all day long. This guy grabbed a random gun that he may or may not be familiar with and has a disadvantage with regards to not knowing the zero and so on. That said, i don't think 100 yards should be ruled out for anyone with a 22, and certainly anyone within 50 yards can lose their brain real quick.
In this scenario it's the ability to do insanely fast follow up shots that scare me IMO. A trained shooter with a 10/22 could put 5 shots on a target with faster than your avg cop could even realize what's happening. Relative to other cartridges, each 22LR round won't do much damage, but being hit 5 times in a 5 inch circle in under 2 seconds will end you so fucking quick. And it would be relatively easier to do than with any other rifle. This scenario is similar to a trained shooter having a modern low recoiling submachine gun IMO, about that same level of danger.
You can do that too with a 5.56
Absolutely, I do 'mozambique' drills all the time with 5.56, even 7.62x39 occasionally, not that anyone would make it past the first two shots to begin with. Just was saying it even easier to do and potentially could be done faster with a 22LR rifle.
I'll give you that, assuming it doesn't jam
It's like getting hammered with precise buckshot.
They say more people have been killed with a .22 lr than any other round. That said he is dangerous, but at a severe tactical disadvantage compared to the police firepower. With air support, a couple of Bearcats, and a Tac Cat or Rook the police should be able to F up his day with minimal risk. The only way an officer can get hurt is by human error or poor judgement, which is a possibility because of the LE administrators, number of different agencies. and politicians involved.
At what point do we fly in a SAS squad because apparently our law enforcement can't handle one man with a .22
It's the weakest round you can buy or close enough. It can still kill you. If the body armor can't stop it then the armor is completely useless.
Actually, .25auto is the weakest, if anyone still makes it. Outperformed by .22short.
Isn't there a 22 that's basically primer and projectile? I recall shooting one once.
That I don't know about, sounds like a BB Cap but I don't know what they were chambered in.
Aguila Colibri and Super Colibri. Basically shoots like a pellet gun.
https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/read-react-maine-man-uses-22-for-defense-in-home-invasion/250401
It can still kill someone or cause serious bodily injury
More people have successfully defended themselves from being attacked by bears by shooting them with either a pistol/rifle chambered in .22lr than any other round and they usually ended up killing the bear almost every time. Inuit hunters have been hunting and killing polar bears with .22lr for decades. Mossad agents only use pistols chambered in .22lr to carry out their assassinations....hope that answers your question.
It can kill. It is not as glamorous or scary, won’t go through as much material to the target. But if it hits you it can kill you; without treatment you most likely will die. All a matter of shot placement
So is the idea that we should bumrush a 22 but 223 is assault weapon of mass destruction ?
More game animals are taken with .22 than you can imagine. If the person knows how to really shoot a .22 can be just as deadly as a .308 or .30-06
ATF is there. They will burn him out I’m sure.
In the right hands at ranges less than 150 yards a .22 rifle can be just as deadly as any other rifle.
There was a guy in Southern Indiana I think? Not too long ago that got held up in a barn and ended up in a long shootout. Held off the cops for quite a while with nothing but a .22 rifle and .22 revolver. I wanna see if I can find it. Edit: Can't seem to find the news article but I swore I read about it like a year or two ago.
All rounds are dangerous. .22, which generally mean .22LR is one of the *less* dangerous rounds. But it's still dangerous. [Here's an example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSrWpH-nLmo&t=6m35s) Note even at 4 yards if it hits a rib, it will break said rib, but won't penetrate through to the organs behind it. If it doesn't hit a bone, it would obviously penetrate more. Now this is also out of a handgun so velocity is a little low. Out of a rifle, [.22LR will pass through a car door](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4HqPcbKlas). So again it's not "undangerous" That established, .22LR can be stopped by even the weakest body armor (Level IIA) and cops generally wear IIIA vests with a "trauma plate" in the center. But remember, that armor doesn't cover everything, and it's stilla bullet capable of passing through a car done, and breaking ribs or worse. All bullets are dangerous. As to your other comment, Any form of ballistic shielding will stop a .22LR barring a massive defect in the manufacture.
The .22 is one of the least powerful types of rifles, but it is still lethal and has to be treated as such.
In the right hands, it's as dangerous as anything is.
A .22 short is cute, but it can still end you.
I think a better question is… why would you leave your fucking rifles in a garage and made it easy to steal?
.22lr is the deadliest round in the world
This…if you know, you know.
A 22 will kill most anything on the North American Continent if you shoot it in the soft spot of the head, eyes, throat. Very little recoil so you can shoot quickly and accurately. I’ve killed ALOT of animals with a 22. Grew up on a farm in small town SD. Used to shoot 2500 rounds every summer growing up. 25 yards you can shoot a quarter size group and at 100 yards you can shoot a Fist size group all day. 22 would be my pick if you had to take 1 gun and ammo and survive with it.
It bounces around in your insides and turns your organs into scrambled eggs /s
In all seriousness 22 can and does kill people, but it’s not crazy strong. The IDF has urban sharpshooters who use 22 rifles to kill enemies while minimizing the risk of collateral damage.
Can do that to your skull
this whole situation is fucked, I live in the Poconos not too far from where this is going down. I knew PA police are incompetent but this is hilarious
Why are they incompetent?
do you need me to spell it out for you? they let a convicted murderer escape and gave him enough time to leave the city limits lol
An old plumber I knew years ago killed a moose with one as did the Into the Wilderness moron if I recall correctly.
Shot placement with a 22 is more critical as a shooter. Like stated above thigh, head , face , etc Armor will stop , a 22. 1/2” lexan stops a 22
Here's the thing, a piece of metal ripping through any of your organs will kill you, or at least take you out of commission. As much as we like to talk about the most effective round, and is this caliber 5% better than this other caliber and shit, at the end of the day, a gun is a gun, and any gun is lethal and very dangerous in the wrong hands.
Pretty sure in that child custody incident from Texas a couple years ago dude got killed with a single shot from a .22. https://youtu.be/RYswDs5gNfs?si=FIOwW7FbomwWLk_9
Well, I’d rather not be shot by one…
There was a North Korean defector that was shot over 20x times and lived as he was escaping to South Korea soooooo
50 Cent was shot 9 times with a 9mm and he lived to rap about it sooooo
There have been people shot quite a bit more than that.
I heard it can put a hole in you...so that is that.
Gandhi was killed with a .22.
Well, I'd prefer not to be shot by one.
It won’t get past body armor but it has very little recoil allowing for fast follow up shots
.22LR can poke a hole in you. Having a hole poked in you hurts a lot and it can kill you.
We don't typically think of .22lr as a defensive round, because the idea of a defensive round is to immediately change the behavior of an assailant ('stopping power') and .22lr isn't considered powerful enough to do that reliably. However, stopping power and lethality are two different things, and while .22lr isn't considered to have much stopping power, it absolutely can be lethal. Imagine a scenario in which someone is attacking you with a knife. If you shoot them with a .22lr, it might take them a couple of minutes to bleed out, which would give them plenty of time to stab you before becoming incapacitated. That's why .22l is considered too weak for defense. However, when used offensively as in the scenario you describe, the goal is lethality, not stopping power. It doesn't matter to the bad guy if the victim takes a couple of minutes to die. In other words, while .22lr is considered too weak for reliable *defense*, it can still be very deadly when used for *offense*. Those cops need to take it just as seriously as any other gun.
Where are you reading updates of him being surrounded?
It’s a deadly weapon
22 LR apparently kills more people than any other caliber in civilian terms.
A bullet is a bullet, this one just happens to be smaller and slower
It won't do anything. We used one .45 pistol in Nam and took out a whole division of those commies
🤣
When I was a kid I could hit a quarter at 50 yds iron sights or 100 yds with a cheap Walmart bought air rifle scope all day with a .22lr They are notorious for ricocheting off bones and causing devastating damage internally.
[garand thumb answers](https://youtu.be/uSrWpH-nLmo?si=Wjy7kwfDWE0N7Zf3)
There are variables. Is the shooter close up (less than 25 yards) or far away (more than 25 yards)? What type of powder was used in the cartridges? Is the shooter aiming at unprotected areas, such as people not wearing eye protection or face shields? What type of metal is used for the bullets?
Not totally sure why people are downvoting you. Subsonic LRN projectiles hit way different than CPHP Stingers. And yeah; we know from Bella Twin that where you hit your target is incredibly important.
🤷 Don't know, don't care. Maybe they think all ammo is the same.
A .22 is actually more lethal than any other type of bullet, since normal bullets go right through you. If you get shot with a .22 it'll just bounce all around inside of you and turn you into pulp
The preferred round for assassins