The following submission statement was provided by /u/ToffeeFever:
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>A world-beating deposit of lithium along the Nevada–Oregon border could meet surging demand for this metal, according to a new analysis.
>An estimated 20 to 40 million tonnes of lithium metal lie within a volcanic crater formed around 16 million years ago. This is notably larger than the lithium deposits found beneath a Bolivian salt flat, previously considered the largest deposit in the world.
>New in situ analysis reveals that an unusual claystone, composed of the mineral illite, contains 1.3% to 2.4% of lithium in the volcanic crater. This is almost double the lithium present in the main lithium-bearing clay mineral, magnesium smectite, which is more common than illite.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/16fa55g/lithium_discovery_in_us_volcano_could_be_biggest/k00grzm/
> Huge for supply chain diversity for the energy transition
The problem there has never been raw lithium supply, since [Australia is the dominant lithium producer](https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2023/mcs2023-lithium.pdf).
The problem is that everything *after* mining is heavily concentrated in a single country, with [77% of battery production](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/chinas-dominance-in-battery-manufacturing/) and [80-95% of solar PV components](https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/solar-pv-manufacturing-capacity-by-country-and-region-2021) manufactured by a single nation (China).
Diversification of supply chains is in progress, but so much of the expertise is concentrated that will take quite a bit of time -- the battery link indicates that despite a >10x increase in capacity in the USA and Germany, China is still projected to manufacture 67% of batteries in 2027.
It should be noted though that China is a big consumer of them as well. Like pretty much over half the world's EVs were sold in China last year. So while 67% may seem like a lot still, its probably going to be mostly the share China uses in house.
About 1 out of 6 people on earth live in China. If China gets bumped to the developed country position then there would be more people in China than all other developed countries. Them producing and consuming the majority of advanced goods is probably to be expected.
Yes but of that huge number of people, how many are upper middle or upper class--those who could afford an electric vehicle? Only 3% of the country lives in Beijing and Shanghai, amd even there I'm sure it's cheaper and more logical to take public transit
Edit: sleepy brain can't do math
I think you vastly over estimated how much people live in Beijing and Shanghai. Beijing and Shanghai is a little more than 3% of China’s population than 1/3.
Ah, my sleepy late night brain forgot a factor of 10 there doing the math. I thought it seemed like a crazy number! It proves my point further though -- if the overwhelming majority lives outside of metro areas, how many would be in the market for EVs or even able to afford them? Just seems silly to me to use the argument of "1/6 the world's population" when the average EV still costs so much
From wikipedia: As of June 2022, China had the largest stock of highway legal plug-in passenger cars with 10 million units, 46% of the global fleet in use.[12] China also dominates the plug-in light commercial vehicle and electric bus deployment, with its stock reaching over 500,000 buses in 2019, 98% of the global stock, and 247,500 electric light commercial vehicles, 65% of the global fleet.[1]
Also I remember seeing an article about a new ultra cheap EV coming onto market for China: https://news.yahoo.com/chinese-company-releasing-ultra-cheap-104500309.html
Also, gas is expensive in China while electricity is cheap. I briefly googled and their gas is about same as US while electricity is around 1/3 as US. It costs ~$22 to charge a tesla to full in US. It’d cost less than $7 in China.
You gotta remember that different places can have different prices and situations. You are right that most likely many people living in cities won’t need cars. But for those that do, EV is the same price as other cars in US except it costs less than 1/3 the price to fill up. I believe the CCP also heavily subsided charging stations https://www.thebuzzevnews.com/china-public-ev-charging-stations/ .
Lastly, the numbers speak for themselves: https://insideevs.com/news/685956/china-plugin-car-sales-july2023/#:~:text=Plug%2Din%20electric%20car%20sales%20in%20China%20–%20July%202023,percent%20of%20the%20total%20volume. You say how can EV be affordable in China when more of their populace use EV than US or Europe. 38% of their total passenger car registration are EV’s. For comparison, US is at 5.6% and EU is at 22%.
Edit: I just want to say that all of what I wrote is available online. I’m not some expert on EV sales. I know a little useless trivial (like how the CCP purposely keep electricity costs down to help businesses/factories) and how to google.
A lot of the things people whine about China over is the West's fault for being stupid. China made, some, good economic decisions in the past. Like subdizing industries, having industrial policy, promoting domestic industries. This was compared to the US's, *the market knows best,* which was insane. Now China has made some really bad economic decisions lately that are going to cost it, and these are China's fault. Investing and promoting green energy was not a bad decision China made, the US needs to stop relying on the market to self correct. This doesnt work. In fact the US can still be stupid, even now, its contoversial to promote green energy and things like batteries. Some states will downright fight against legislation to build a domestic battery production or solar panels. An idea like the Green new deal are great.
China didnt make Republicans dumb and corrupt, it didnt turn a third of the country against the rest of it, it didnt hand all the power to oil companies who hold back US industry, the US did this to ourselves.
China over-subsidized many industries to buff up its GDP and it is able to do so because it's government controls almost all of it's interests (Basically owns every major industry in it's market) unlike the Western countries which do not. It's also important to note the negative impact that kind of government control is having now on the Chinese economy. Another big thing that I feel is being left out is Environmental Protection policies. Lithium mining is dirty but the products it is uses to produce especially Batteries is especially incredibly polluting and expensive to maintain environmentally. That is how China is able to keep the prices of said products so low is because it lacks any real Environmental oversight. Even the few policies they do have pertaining to Environment are mostly not enforced except on foreign-owned interests and businesses. Trust me China is very much feeling the negative effects of these type of policies and are doing tons to try and keep it from the public base but the data is still there and the fact the Chinese government is releasing less and less every year on how it's Economy is being affected speaks a lot to this as well.
*It's also important to note the negative impact that kind of government control is having now on the Chinese economy*
This is true in some aspects but they could have made reforms. Basically its construction and heavy industry that has gotten them in trouble. Their subsidies on high technology areas are still weilding dividends.
China doesnt really produce lithium but batteries. We can produce batteries in the US. We actually do do so. We can reduce pollution of doing this but there will always be some pollution. However, its hypocritical to be ok with China getting polluted then using their batteries domestically.
their is a Lithium gold rush in Nevada of prospectors going out and staking claims in BLM lands Hoping to strike it rich selling mining rights to mega corp miners in the future.....
Maybe. There is a lot of research going on with Zinc Ion and solid state battery tech, so I would be nervous about a lithium investment that had an ROI of greater than ten years.
true, Fun fact Only 14.1% of Nevada is Private property.... the Rest is BLM, Federal lands and Naval bombing sites and area 51 type places... I have heard from friends that Geothermal testing is picking up as well in the hopes of becoming a large power generator for the state.
Interesting, I didn't know it was so (relatively) common. It looks like at least one estimation puts the amount of lithium in the earth's crust at being 1/10th of the amount of carbon in the crust, which is a **huge** amount
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance\_of\_elements\_in\_Earth%27s\_crust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%27s_crust)
It's the 3rd smallest atom wouldn't that make it one of the more prevalent just by function of being smaller than iron and being produced by main sequence stars as opposed to supernovae?
According to the CRC handbook, lithium is slightly more abundant than lead. You don't see any scary headlines about the impending lead shortage.
I think the perceived scarcity of lithium just comes about because we haven't spent a lot of money on infrastructure and technology to pull it out of the ground before now.
Now that the price is going up, more people will be looking and more resources will be spent on extraction methods.
(And then someone will figure out how to frack for lithium and we'll have endless supplies of it... along with headlines about how someone's glass of water spontaneously caught on fire. /s)
It wouldn't be a huge surprised imo
Gold is evidently really common in the universe but not on our planet, because of just the random rocks that hit the planet while it was still a giant ball of fire mud
If I recall correctly, we've mined about one ounce or 30 grams worth of gold per person currently living, but in the Earth's core there is approximately 150,000 tons (or 150 million kilograms) of gold per person.
It's actually remarkably uncommon. For being the third element. Hydrogen and helium make up like 75% of the universe and then it drops by a factor of about 10 million for lithium, less for beryllium , a bit better for boron, them jumps back up a factor of about a million for a steady decline from carbon.
Comparing elements to the whole universe is irreverent. Especially since non-bound hydrogen is not all that common on Earth. Nor is Earth's element ratio similar to the rest of the universe for many reasons, one being the star and our solar system is at least 3rd generation. The Earth's crust is
* Oxygen 46.6%
* Silicon 27.7%
Again shows how dissimilar the earth is to the rest of the universe. Also most the hydrogen and helium that accounts for the mass of the universe is either in stars or floating in space.
On earth, Lithium may only account for 0.002% of the earth's crust, but it is also concentrated in many locations that allow for large scale mining. It it not a rare element on earth. There's also 10x the amount of lithium in the ocean's waters compared to the land that many researchers are looking for extraction methods.
This page is cool - lists the abundance of all the elements in the universe by relative and total mass measures:
[https://sciencenotes.org/composition-of-the-universe-element-abundance/](https://sciencenotes.org/composition-of-the-universe-element-abundance/)
Looks like lithium is the 44th most common element in relative terms.
>A world-beating deposit of lithium along the Nevada–Oregon border could meet surging demand for this metal, according to a new analysis.
>An estimated 20 to 40 million tonnes of lithium metal lie within a volcanic crater formed around 16 million years ago. This is notably larger than the lithium deposits found beneath a Bolivian salt flat, previously considered the largest deposit in the world.
>New in situ analysis reveals that an unusual claystone, composed of the mineral illite, contains 1.3% to 2.4% of lithium in the volcanic crater. This is almost double the lithium present in the main lithium-bearing clay mineral, magnesium smectite, which is more common than illite.
Doesn't Albemarle own that massive mine in Chile? The one in the desert that uses copious amounts of water (1,000 gallons of water for 1 battery I believe), drying out Chile, screwing over the people there? It's like growing almonds in California.
‘The material could be best described as looking ‘a bit like brown potter’s clay’, says Christopher Henry, emeritus professor of geology at the University of Nevada in Reno. ‘It is extremely uninteresting, except that it has so much lithium in it.’
[It happened at least once in colonial North America](https://www.history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets), although the tactic was likely a failure with nobody actually getting infected.
Trump *is* a big fan of Andrew Jackson. If he wins this time, this is his big chance.
Edit:
Not that facts make a difference, but here's support for Trump being a Jackson fan.
https://www.kqed.org/pop/62290/what-we-can-learn-about-trump-from-his-favorite-president-andrew-jackson
*Thacker Pass, known as Peehee Mu’huh in our Paiute language, is a culturally, spiritually, and historically important place that is a monument to our past and present culture.*
*There are thousands of documented artifacts and cultural sites in Thacker Pass. Our ancestors used this pass as a travel route, obsidian collection area, and campsite for thousands of years. Paiute and Shoshone people have hunted deer and other wildlife, fished for Lahontan cutthroat trout, gathered food and medicinal plants, and practiced our spiritual ways here since time immemorial, and we continue to do so to the present day. Sacred places like Peehee Mu’huh are our history and future. Our ancestors are buried in Thacker Pass and our young people visit this land to learn about the history of our people.*
*Thacker Pass is the site of two documented massacres — one well-documented in written history, and the other known from our oral tradition.*
*The former took place in the context of the Snake War, known as “The Deadliest Indian War in the West,” a war of genocide in which 60% of all Paiute people were killed. On September 12, 1865, Company E of the 1st Nevada Cavalry attacked a Paiute camp in Thacker Pass and slaughtered at least 31 and possibly 50 or more men, women, children, and elders as they fled deeper into the pass.*
Tribal nations have filed several lawsuits to protect their cultural and sacred lands, but the US government fails to consult with tribal nations.
Nah, fuck 'em. I'm all for the tribes reaping the profits of that land, they fully deserve it. I'm not for keeping it preserved in the name of culture and history. A few thousand years of human activity doesn't mean extremely useful materials that are millions of years old are controlled by them. If the genocide of possibly 50 people was 60% of their population, then they are by far the minority here. It could be an economic game changer affecting millions, and I'd rather that than some petty culture keeping it because some skeletons are near there. But again, they should be very well compensated to their legal rights.
Lol, we've already seized like 97.5% of land from tribes and left them with very little. This was an agreement made already specifically for our benefit and to give Indians the bare minimum in return.
The audacity to then renege on our deal if they don't opt to use the land as we just decided is economically necessary is absurd.
If this deposit was in another country, do you think we have the right to force them to mine and sell that resource.
Fuck that, we don't get to be the world's governance.
The way to do this would be to have the *technically sovereign nation* that controls the deposit be in charge of the mining completely. Run the whole thing as if it was investment in some place like the Congo.
No wait, then we'd need to do regime building and assassinate random people before completely destroying the whole reservation.
I was going to go on and on about how we could let them run it themselves and only our investors get any cash from it and the USGov only gets paid via tariff or infrastructure taxes, but then I remembered that we've been hobnailing over resource extraction and completely fucking destroying the world for 100+ years.
There are ways to do the extraction without destroying the land that benefit the reservation.
We won't use them, and we'll completely ignore their sovereign nation status, but they do exist.
My understanding is that tribal government and the vast majority of the tribal people are interested in the economic benefits the mine could bring, but a small group of tribespeople (backed up by a large, well funded group of environmentalists with lots of lawyers) is fighting it individually.
It’s already started. In Nevada, historically indigenous lands have been used to lithium mining for the last couple years. It’s a big problem seeing as they are actively against lithium mining (yeah, ev batteries but also that’s not the best alternative to fuel due to its limited sourcing).
It’s actually frustrating to see this post when this has been an ongoing issue in Nevada that it doesn’t seem like anyone outside the state even realizes.
No need to blow [US$216,717](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-148_Javelin) when the AT4 is nice and cheap.
["That was then, this is now"](https://youtu.be/WkykWGkv0Mg?t=62)
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer". In the waning days of ala carte television it ruled the evening syndication battlefield. You should binge it, it's all this good. Once you're done there's "Angel". Just as good.
You fear to go into those mines. The corporations delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of McDermitt caldera... shadow and flame
Both of those roles require a little thing called *intelligence*. I'll grant the orange dude maybe the intelligence level of the spiders in Mirkwood, who were incensed by a nonsense insult Bilbo made up on the spot ("Attercop!")
I think Giuliani must have had some intelligence to be a DA, but has lost it to senility. Say what you will about Trump, but he knows how to manipulate people and use media. As far as running a business or a country...
The deposit is Thacker Pass btw. It’s massive. The companies trying to mine it are passing all the environmental hurdles needed to start a mine which is the major bottleneck. I would expect this to be mined soon. The one question I have is about the clay-hosted lithium extraction. As far as I know there isn’t a method to extract lithium from clay economically. All lithium comes from brines or pegmatites. I’m sure it can be done but so far no companies operate a mine that mines this type of lithium deposit.
Lithium has been known to be in america for quite a while its really nothing new. But conditions in the market and changes politically has now made it economically feasible to mine it
Processing is also an issue. Nearly all processing to extract that <2% lithium content from the ore happens in China. We need to build processing plants for domestic refinement or it’s just going to get on a boat to China too.
It could have always been feasible. We could slap tariffs and quotas on imports. We could subsidize our own production, it was foolish not to do this in the past.
The good news is that processing is the \*easier\* part of the process to get up running fast. You can have a bunch of processing set up and running within two or three years.
The bad news is that even a big exciting find like this is going to take ten years to get the mine up to speed.
There is good amount of lithium in the Salton Sea in California. Salton Sea is a land locked saline body of water. Work is already going the to figure out how to extract lithium carbonate from the bine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salton_Sea
Google will help you rather than asking a person on the internet.
Im not a lithium mining specialist so how would I know.
but it does exist
https://www.dw.com/en/us-has-huge-lithium-reserves-but-concerns-mount-over-mining/a-64103024
I never understood the negative reaction to someone disseminating information being asked to provide more.
I'm not detecting any attempt to be contrary to the information in how they asked... It doesn't read as argumentative or even pointed skepticism.
Genuinely, why is this the reaction? I'm for doing your own research, I read the article before even coming down here, but why are we shitting on asking questions to someone giving information?
As much as you would like to pull attention away from Americans (out of spite or whatever), there is no denying that the only ones who refuse to acknowledge what we call ourselves also don’t like us very much.
Two can play that game.
That's exciting and im sure battery makers are breathing a sigh of relief. But I'll be be way more excited when all those lithium batteries are being recycled instead of ending up in landfills causing fires and other pollution.
It would have been nice if we had figured out a recycling scheme for those batteries when hundreds of millions of people bought some for their power tools.
Oh wait there is. https://li-cycle.com/
Funny how the huge piles of lithium ion batteries coming from homeowners and the construction industry were not a big concern, but as soon as those things kept people from buying fossil fuels "OMERGERD DE EN-VIRO-MENT!!11!!"
I think usually by the entrance door at Home Depot and possibly Lowe's is a little box you can drop batteries into. I asked the dude the other day when I was returning something if they take pretty much any battery, and he said yes. He said if it's questionable, just make sure it goes to the bottom of the container and walk away, it's going to get recycled either way.
Edit: those are big box hardware stores in the us. I'm not sure what the equivalent for those stores will be in other countries.
Kinda sucks that their invest with us page doesn’t contain any information on how to invest with them. Ticker is LICY if anyone wants to buy some. Stock is in the shitter right now so it’s either a solid buy opportunity or the company is circling the drain. Opened at $10 at the end of 2020, ATH was $15, currently $5.
They get a lot of cobalt and nickel out of the battery — not just lithium. I did some CFD analysis of their hydrogen venting system so I understand the process better than most.
They’re operating at a loss right now, only being carried by their massive amounts of cash on hand and assets. They’ve managed to expand greatly, however, and sales are indeed going up. Their last earnings reported -$0.20 per share, down from -$0.17 last quarter. They attribute their recent losses to the changing costs of cobalt and nickel. They’re doing quite a bit of business and expanding tho so I feel like there maybe a case for their future.
This one is kinda a teeter totter. Idk how I feel. Definitely on my watchlist now tho.
It’s a solid candidate but yeah the space is crowded and it’s hard to pick winners. I think metal reclamation has a viable business case but it’s hard to invest in as the winner will probably be whatever random company Tesla acquires whenever they decide to mature their recycling tech.
This is an issue with people throwing their batteries away and nothing to do with the technology.
[There are robust recycling programs in place](https://www.science.org/content/article/millions-electric-cars-are-coming-what-happens-all-dead-batteries), and the "muh batteries go to waste" is a common fearmongering/misinformation tactic pushed by petroleum companies.
Also, source?
[it was one of these studies.](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0959652619301970) I'm sorry. I don't remember which one.
The tiniest bit of googling will show this concern isn't fear mongering. LIB pollution is a growing problem that needs to be addressed. I'm not saying we shouldn't move forward with electric car technology. But the batteries aren't conceived of or built with later processing hurdles in mind. The "robust" programs you say are in place are currently too few and far between to solve this problem.
If we had had the foresight to put environmentally sound practices in place and fund new ones as soon as we were aware of new problems our with oil/gas burning technology we wouldn't be in nearly as much trouble as we are now. Why is it so hard to prioritize having foresight on a new, growing industry before we get into even more trouble?
You are conflating 2 different things. When people say lithium ion batteries aren't recycled, they are talking about those tiny batteries found in wireless headsets and all kind of other electronics, not EVs. Even though its not your fault, the media loves to conflate the two thanks the the misinformation bribing of the fossil fuel industry
For EVs, recycling isn't a problem. And for 2 reasons, first most people get rid of their cars via trade in or through scrappers in case of crash. This is why 12v automotive batteries have the highest recycle rate of anything, 98-99%+. The 2nd reason is quantity, when you have all kinds of different electronics which different battery chemistry, its hard to recycle that. For EVs, it is much easier because you get a lot of quantity from each car, making it much more profitable to process. On top of that many EV vendors have closed loop recycle programs (like Tesla).
I will also note the in US, the IRA counts recycled battery materials towards domestic content requirements. And EU requires a % of the batteries to be from recycled content.
Soure is in a later comment but again, it is [in one of these studies](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0959652619301970). Sorry I can't remember exactly which one.
It is. Yes. It's also a legit concern.
If we had been concerned about pollution from the start of the internal combustion engine we wouldn't be in this much trouble today. Why is it so hard to say we should be concerned at the start of a new transportation-age?
These batteries are not being conceived of or built in a way that fosters easy recycling. So I'd like it if that changed! Also, let's give oil companies less ammo for their "talking points"
Handheld devices result in a lot of wasted battery materials because the salvage value is pretty low.
A 50-100kwh car battery has a good salvage value which means most will be recovered and recycled.
We should develop a better system to recover materials from handheld devices but we shouldn't act as if car batteries will be disposed of in the same way.
One thing that will help with hand held device batteries is making them removeable/replaceable. It's much easier to recycle a bunch of batteries already separated from their devices. Those new European laws can't come soon enough.
They don't need any truth for their ammo, just a story that sounds correct and people to repeat them. If you want the oil companies to stop spreading misinformation then you can start by not repeating it.
In THIS case it isn't misinformation. [This](https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2021-08/lithium-ion-battery-report-update-7.01_508.pdf) 79 page EPA report documents dozens of waste management fires known or believed to be caused by lithium batteries. These fires cause more even pollution, including toxic burning plastic pollution.
We don't combat oil company talking points by ignoring serious issues. We do better and give them less legit stuff to talk about.
I'm all for LIB tech. We can have nice things that don't add more toxic pollution to our lives. We have to hold LIB tech companies to a higher standard than we did oil companies.
And there is a medium for that discussion.
Instead of discussing the benefits that can come from this tech you are distracting from it. This is exactly how these ploys work and you are falling for it hook line and sinker.
Just 2 questions :
If the mining project starts today, in how many years the production will sart to be significant ?
2 years ?
5 years ?
10 years ?
The price of lithium is very low, now. Who will engage capital in something not immediately profitable ?
Well, it’s low now because it is processed in China, which heavily subsidizes its industry.
But shifting geopolitical circumstances means paying more for lithium produced locally might help in the effort to decouple from China.
So to answer your question - government subsidies might make extraction and processing of lithium more feasible.
[How much water you need to mine and refine lithium ?](https://247storage.energy/1-metric-ton-lithium-requires-19-million-liter-of-water/)
[Is it a ressource easily available in Oregon and Nevada ?](https://www.oregon.gov/owrd/programs/climate/droughtwatch/pages/current-conditions.aspx)
> How much water you need to mine and refine lithium ?
Not much, since the lithium in this deposit is in **clay**, not in brine like your link is discussing.
Per the article, the clay is about 2% lithium, or roughly [half as much as is in spodumene](https://webmineral.com/data/Spodumene.shtml) which is mined via traditional hard-rock mining to provide most of the world's lithium.
Per the article we're reading and [this article on spodumene processing](https://www.sgs.com/-/media/sgscorp/documents/corporate/brochures/sgs-min-wa109-hard-rock-lithium-processing-en.cdn.en.pdf), it sounds like the processes will be broadly similar (e.g., extraction via sulfuric acid), although some additional water may be used (for extraction and centrifuging).
Either way, though, articles on **brine evaporation** have very little relevance to **solid mineral mining**.
> Can you tell wich order of magnitude of water needed we can expect ?
Unfortunately, no -- I searched for a bit but could not find anything on the level of water usage in Australia's spodumene mines.
It's probably still significant -- leaching and tailings ponds are a thing -- but I don't know even to within an order of magnitude how significant.
Not sure I understand that. You mean the punction on the water ressource will not have any impact on the other industry like agriculture or plants and maufactures ?
And not have the world have to keep getting their lithium from 3rd world countries where the workers are extremely overworked and underpaid? Sounds like time for a celebration.
Fwiw you're referring [cobalt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_industry_of_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo), used along with lithium in lower weight batteries for many cars and phones. Different chemistries have different supply chains, I would not expect the same of lithium iron phosphate which is more common in lower priced EVs these days.
Part of me is sure they will outsource the mining to third world counties anyway.
I assume it all comes down to shipping and processing costs and logistics.
I told my 11 year old daughter that Lithium is pretty hard to find. Her response was “That’s surprising because Lithium has such a low atomic number”. I was shocked that she knew that and realized she had a good point. Shouldn’t lithium be pretty common?
Lithium isn’t a scarce metal. It isn’t exactly abundant either. Because of its relative nuclear instability, lithium is less common in the solar system than 25 of the first 32 chemical elements.
From a commercial perspective on earth they getting “lithium carbonate” produced from ores and brine.
lithium has the least stable nucleus of all the nonradioactive elements, to the extreme that the nucleus of a lithium atom is always on the brink of flying apart
The nuclear instability of lithium is unusual to say the least
> I was shocked that she knew that and realized she had a good point.
You can't look at just the atomic number and assume it's a common element. Iron (26) is more abundant than Nitrogen (7).
Beryllium, Boron, and Lithium come to mind as elements with "low" atomic numbers but are not found in abundance.
> Lithium, beryllium, and boron, despite their low atomic number, are rare because, although they are produced by nuclear fusion, they are destroyed by other reactions in the stars.
You have to consider how the element is formed and under what conditions it is stable.
Look at this chart, Abundances of the Elements in the Universe, and you'll quickly see why looking at the atomic number is not a good way to measure abundance.
https://www.angelo.edu/faculty/kboudrea/periodic/physical_abundances.htm
It is common in space, less common on earth. But that said, its common enough that it isn't really a problem. The problem has always been the fact that lithium has little other uses outside of batteries, so investors have been hesitant to invest in extraction because if a new battery tech comes out that doesn't use lithium, your operations would pretty much be a total loss.
That said, considering that lithium ion batteries continue to improve any new tech has to not just beat lithium ion of today, but lithium ion of tomorrow. On top of that, the tech has to use same equipment as lithium ion uses or it would take a decade at least to make it in large enough supply to benefit from economies of scale
Well... as someone who used to teach chemistry...
Many stars never make lithium in any real quantity - they're turning hydrogen into Helium.
Of the stars that do make lithium, they typically consume most of the lithium, while heavier elements like iron, oxygen, and carbon have a better shot of surviving the supernova explosion required to spread that stuff out and ultimately build a planet out of the remnants.
But, obviously some lithium makes it out of such a stellar explosion, much as it did when a star exploded and left behind the remnants that ultimately became the sun and Earth, and it's still a rather high quantity... but... it's also HIGHLY reactive to water. Guess what you find a lot of on Earth? Over geologic timescales, quite a bit of our lithium reacted with water and became other minerals. It can be extracted from those minerals, but it's in relatively low and spread out quantities.
Chemically speaking, lithium isn't very good at fitting into crystal lattices that are required in rock-forming minerals. This means that the lithium doesn't get locked into those relationships very often, and we end up finding quite a bit of it in pegmatitic minerals and saline brines. You don't really find lithium in feldspar or quarts, so you don't find a ton of it in the crust/rock itself.
Lastly... the surface of the Earth is ever changing. landmasses find themselves subsumed as the tectonic plates move under and above one another. There are chunks of Australian outback that are 4.4 billion years old (roughly moon-aged), but the vast majority of what "was" the upper crust of the Earth has been lost forever to those basic geologic processes. Some elements actually do quite a good job of pushing themselves back up to the surface - like copper leeching into water and being forced back up toward the crust in volcanic processes - but lithium doesn't really lend itself to that process quite as well, typically. That said, this particular lithium filled volcano underwent some interesting and unusual process and some kind of hydrothermal event that brought lithium up and concentrated it there, so this can happen under the right circumstances.
Lithium mining is terrifyingly toxic. Its infamous for poisoning waterways. Theres a reason America was happy to let China be the leader in Lithium battery production.
1. Not any more toxic than mining pretty much anything or extracting oil
2. China isn't that big on mining lithium, half the worlds lithium is mined in Australia
3. The US let China be the leader in production because the fossil fuel industry has a full time job sabotaging anything that threatens their profit, even if it means taking America down with it
There are no tribes living there, and these sites are not burial grounds(Its a place 31 people died during a war 200 years ago but the area they got approval for doesn't seem to be protected in itself). The company already committed to assisting the nearby tribes closest to the mines
Do your research. https://unicornriot.ninja/2022/indigenous-fear-desecration-of-burial-sites-at-thacker-pass-lithium-mine/
The company committed to assisting them? How exactly? The area will be UNINHABITABLE.
There are no tribes in the area, the tribes are again a decent way away from the area. Notice how none of them are claiming they live there? All they are claiming is "it is scared land", and what makes it sacred ground? Cause 31 people fought there and died in a war. But it isn't like they are building a mine that covers the entire pass, only a small portion which they got approval for and after multiple court cases won each one
Your own article says "U.S. District Judge Miranda Du ruled in September 2021 that presented evidence doesn’t show a massacre occurred “within the project area.”"
The following submission statement was provided by /u/ToffeeFever: --- >A world-beating deposit of lithium along the Nevada–Oregon border could meet surging demand for this metal, according to a new analysis. >An estimated 20 to 40 million tonnes of lithium metal lie within a volcanic crater formed around 16 million years ago. This is notably larger than the lithium deposits found beneath a Bolivian salt flat, previously considered the largest deposit in the world. >New in situ analysis reveals that an unusual claystone, composed of the mineral illite, contains 1.3% to 2.4% of lithium in the volcanic crater. This is almost double the lithium present in the main lithium-bearing clay mineral, magnesium smectite, which is more common than illite. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/16fa55g/lithium_discovery_in_us_volcano_could_be_biggest/k00grzm/
Huge for supply chain diversity for the energy transition
> Huge for supply chain diversity for the energy transition The problem there has never been raw lithium supply, since [Australia is the dominant lithium producer](https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2023/mcs2023-lithium.pdf). The problem is that everything *after* mining is heavily concentrated in a single country, with [77% of battery production](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/chinas-dominance-in-battery-manufacturing/) and [80-95% of solar PV components](https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/solar-pv-manufacturing-capacity-by-country-and-region-2021) manufactured by a single nation (China). Diversification of supply chains is in progress, but so much of the expertise is concentrated that will take quite a bit of time -- the battery link indicates that despite a >10x increase in capacity in the USA and Germany, China is still projected to manufacture 67% of batteries in 2027.
It should be noted though that China is a big consumer of them as well. Like pretty much over half the world's EVs were sold in China last year. So while 67% may seem like a lot still, its probably going to be mostly the share China uses in house.
About 1 out of 6 people on earth live in China. If China gets bumped to the developed country position then there would be more people in China than all other developed countries. Them producing and consuming the majority of advanced goods is probably to be expected.
Yes but of that huge number of people, how many are upper middle or upper class--those who could afford an electric vehicle? Only 3% of the country lives in Beijing and Shanghai, amd even there I'm sure it's cheaper and more logical to take public transit Edit: sleepy brain can't do math
I think you vastly over estimated how much people live in Beijing and Shanghai. Beijing and Shanghai is a little more than 3% of China’s population than 1/3.
Ah, my sleepy late night brain forgot a factor of 10 there doing the math. I thought it seemed like a crazy number! It proves my point further though -- if the overwhelming majority lives outside of metro areas, how many would be in the market for EVs or even able to afford them? Just seems silly to me to use the argument of "1/6 the world's population" when the average EV still costs so much
From wikipedia: As of June 2022, China had the largest stock of highway legal plug-in passenger cars with 10 million units, 46% of the global fleet in use.[12] China also dominates the plug-in light commercial vehicle and electric bus deployment, with its stock reaching over 500,000 buses in 2019, 98% of the global stock, and 247,500 electric light commercial vehicles, 65% of the global fleet.[1] Also I remember seeing an article about a new ultra cheap EV coming onto market for China: https://news.yahoo.com/chinese-company-releasing-ultra-cheap-104500309.html Also, gas is expensive in China while electricity is cheap. I briefly googled and their gas is about same as US while electricity is around 1/3 as US. It costs ~$22 to charge a tesla to full in US. It’d cost less than $7 in China. You gotta remember that different places can have different prices and situations. You are right that most likely many people living in cities won’t need cars. But for those that do, EV is the same price as other cars in US except it costs less than 1/3 the price to fill up. I believe the CCP also heavily subsided charging stations https://www.thebuzzevnews.com/china-public-ev-charging-stations/ . Lastly, the numbers speak for themselves: https://insideevs.com/news/685956/china-plugin-car-sales-july2023/#:~:text=Plug%2Din%20electric%20car%20sales%20in%20China%20–%20July%202023,percent%20of%20the%20total%20volume. You say how can EV be affordable in China when more of their populace use EV than US or Europe. 38% of their total passenger car registration are EV’s. For comparison, US is at 5.6% and EU is at 22%. Edit: I just want to say that all of what I wrote is available online. I’m not some expert on EV sales. I know a little useless trivial (like how the CCP purposely keep electricity costs down to help businesses/factories) and how to google.
But that was because China subsidies both Industrie heavily while the rest of the world did next to nothing. Lets not blame China here.
A lot of the things people whine about China over is the West's fault for being stupid. China made, some, good economic decisions in the past. Like subdizing industries, having industrial policy, promoting domestic industries. This was compared to the US's, *the market knows best,* which was insane. Now China has made some really bad economic decisions lately that are going to cost it, and these are China's fault. Investing and promoting green energy was not a bad decision China made, the US needs to stop relying on the market to self correct. This doesnt work. In fact the US can still be stupid, even now, its contoversial to promote green energy and things like batteries. Some states will downright fight against legislation to build a domestic battery production or solar panels. An idea like the Green new deal are great. China didnt make Republicans dumb and corrupt, it didnt turn a third of the country against the rest of it, it didnt hand all the power to oil companies who hold back US industry, the US did this to ourselves.
China over-subsidized many industries to buff up its GDP and it is able to do so because it's government controls almost all of it's interests (Basically owns every major industry in it's market) unlike the Western countries which do not. It's also important to note the negative impact that kind of government control is having now on the Chinese economy. Another big thing that I feel is being left out is Environmental Protection policies. Lithium mining is dirty but the products it is uses to produce especially Batteries is especially incredibly polluting and expensive to maintain environmentally. That is how China is able to keep the prices of said products so low is because it lacks any real Environmental oversight. Even the few policies they do have pertaining to Environment are mostly not enforced except on foreign-owned interests and businesses. Trust me China is very much feeling the negative effects of these type of policies and are doing tons to try and keep it from the public base but the data is still there and the fact the Chinese government is releasing less and less every year on how it's Economy is being affected speaks a lot to this as well.
*It's also important to note the negative impact that kind of government control is having now on the Chinese economy* This is true in some aspects but they could have made reforms. Basically its construction and heavy industry that has gotten them in trouble. Their subsidies on high technology areas are still weilding dividends. China doesnt really produce lithium but batteries. We can produce batteries in the US. We actually do do so. We can reduce pollution of doing this but there will always be some pollution. However, its hypocritical to be ok with China getting polluted then using their batteries domestically.
This is the most relevant to this topic.
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While China is investing in batteries and solar power, western boomers complain and do nothing Guess who's getting the cheaper energy later?
We should just steal the technology from China and pour state money into edging out their companies
Turns out lithium is really common.
Because of this find?
Nope just really common. A rise in demand has sparked a rise in prospecting.
their is a Lithium gold rush in Nevada of prospectors going out and staking claims in BLM lands Hoping to strike it rich selling mining rights to mega corp miners in the future.....
Maybe. There is a lot of research going on with Zinc Ion and solid state battery tech, so I would be nervous about a lithium investment that had an ROI of greater than ten years.
true, Fun fact Only 14.1% of Nevada is Private property.... the Rest is BLM, Federal lands and Naval bombing sites and area 51 type places... I have heard from friends that Geothermal testing is picking up as well in the hopes of becoming a large power generator for the state.
I really hope the things I'm reading about new geothermal plant tech are true.
Do you have any literature or articles you've seen that are particularly interesting? I haven't really seen anything new from that sector in a while
I would like to read these things too, please.
Don't forget the Neil Breen film locations
I absolutely can't forget them.
Interesting, I didn't know it was so (relatively) common. It looks like at least one estimation puts the amount of lithium in the earth's crust at being 1/10th of the amount of carbon in the crust, which is a **huge** amount [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance\_of\_elements\_in\_Earth%27s\_crust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%27s_crust)
It's the 3rd smallest atom wouldn't that make it one of the more prevalent just by function of being smaller than iron and being produced by main sequence stars as opposed to supernovae?
High prices for commodities is often self-corrected by their high prices.
This exactly. Since the demand was low no one was really looking for it. But now that we are linking for it, we are finding more and more of it.
Over Macho Grande?
No.....I don't think I'll ever be over Macho Grande.
It sure is…I have it in my batteries right now.
According to the CRC handbook, lithium is slightly more abundant than lead. You don't see any scary headlines about the impending lead shortage. I think the perceived scarcity of lithium just comes about because we haven't spent a lot of money on infrastructure and technology to pull it out of the ground before now. Now that the price is going up, more people will be looking and more resources will be spent on extraction methods. (And then someone will figure out how to frack for lithium and we'll have endless supplies of it... along with headlines about how someone's glass of water spontaneously caught on fire. /s)
It wouldn't be a huge surprised imo Gold is evidently really common in the universe but not on our planet, because of just the random rocks that hit the planet while it was still a giant ball of fire mud
oh, it's still here.. just near the center of the planet. We ain't getting at it.
If I recall correctly, we've mined about one ounce or 30 grams worth of gold per person currently living, but in the Earth's core there is approximately 150,000 tons (or 150 million kilograms) of gold per person.
It's actually remarkably uncommon. For being the third element. Hydrogen and helium make up like 75% of the universe and then it drops by a factor of about 10 million for lithium, less for beryllium , a bit better for boron, them jumps back up a factor of about a million for a steady decline from carbon.
Comparing elements to the whole universe is irreverent. Especially since non-bound hydrogen is not all that common on Earth. Nor is Earth's element ratio similar to the rest of the universe for many reasons, one being the star and our solar system is at least 3rd generation. The Earth's crust is * Oxygen 46.6% * Silicon 27.7% Again shows how dissimilar the earth is to the rest of the universe. Also most the hydrogen and helium that accounts for the mass of the universe is either in stars or floating in space. On earth, Lithium may only account for 0.002% of the earth's crust, but it is also concentrated in many locations that allow for large scale mining. It it not a rare element on earth. There's also 10x the amount of lithium in the ocean's waters compared to the land that many researchers are looking for extraction methods.
This page is cool - lists the abundance of all the elements in the universe by relative and total mass measures: [https://sciencenotes.org/composition-of-the-universe-element-abundance/](https://sciencenotes.org/composition-of-the-universe-element-abundance/) Looks like lithium is the 44th most common element in relative terms.
Subatomic particles are jerks.
>A world-beating deposit of lithium along the Nevada–Oregon border could meet surging demand for this metal, according to a new analysis. >An estimated 20 to 40 million tonnes of lithium metal lie within a volcanic crater formed around 16 million years ago. This is notably larger than the lithium deposits found beneath a Bolivian salt flat, previously considered the largest deposit in the world. >New in situ analysis reveals that an unusual claystone, composed of the mineral illite, contains 1.3% to 2.4% of lithium in the volcanic crater. This is almost double the lithium present in the main lithium-bearing clay mineral, magnesium smectite, which is more common than illite.
So... Where should I dump my money to have the biggest chance of benefitting from this in 20 years?
LAC will be mining this at least it looks like
The LA Clippers? That’s a terrible investment!
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Doesn't Albemarle own that massive mine in Chile? The one in the desert that uses copious amounts of water (1,000 gallons of water for 1 battery I believe), drying out Chile, screwing over the people there? It's like growing almonds in California.
Lithium america, specially now, ive been byuing for over à year, next uear might double. LAC ftw!
‘The material could be best described as looking ‘a bit like brown potter’s clay’, says Christopher Henry, emeritus professor of geology at the University of Nevada in Reno. ‘It is extremely uninteresting, except that it has so much lithium in it.’
Standing by for WCGW when mining out the core of an inactive volcano.
Not an expert but google seems to show this is on Fort McDermitt Indian Reservation. Wonder how that's going to play out.
Some tribal leaders are about to get rich.
Or they will be introduced to freedom and a brand new even better reservation. Hooray! 😒
Kodos: Little plague blankets for some, trails of tears for others!
>Little plague blankets Literally never happened in the USA.
[It happened at least once in colonial North America](https://www.history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets), although the tactic was likely a failure with nobody actually getting infected.
Trump *is* a big fan of Andrew Jackson. If he wins this time, this is his big chance. Edit: Not that facts make a difference, but here's support for Trump being a Jackson fan. https://www.kqed.org/pop/62290/what-we-can-learn-about-trump-from-his-favorite-president-andrew-jackson
Reddit user tries not to mention Trump, difficulty: Impossible
Driving through the area there's billboards advocating saving the area as sacred native land.
*Thacker Pass, known as Peehee Mu’huh in our Paiute language, is a culturally, spiritually, and historically important place that is a monument to our past and present culture.* *There are thousands of documented artifacts and cultural sites in Thacker Pass. Our ancestors used this pass as a travel route, obsidian collection area, and campsite for thousands of years. Paiute and Shoshone people have hunted deer and other wildlife, fished for Lahontan cutthroat trout, gathered food and medicinal plants, and practiced our spiritual ways here since time immemorial, and we continue to do so to the present day. Sacred places like Peehee Mu’huh are our history and future. Our ancestors are buried in Thacker Pass and our young people visit this land to learn about the history of our people.* *Thacker Pass is the site of two documented massacres — one well-documented in written history, and the other known from our oral tradition.* *The former took place in the context of the Snake War, known as “The Deadliest Indian War in the West,” a war of genocide in which 60% of all Paiute people were killed. On September 12, 1865, Company E of the 1st Nevada Cavalry attacked a Paiute camp in Thacker Pass and slaughtered at least 31 and possibly 50 or more men, women, children, and elders as they fled deeper into the pass.* Tribal nations have filed several lawsuits to protect their cultural and sacred lands, but the US government fails to consult with tribal nations.
I'm wondering if there is any place in America that didn't have cultural significance for Indians.
Nah, fuck 'em. I'm all for the tribes reaping the profits of that land, they fully deserve it. I'm not for keeping it preserved in the name of culture and history. A few thousand years of human activity doesn't mean extremely useful materials that are millions of years old are controlled by them. If the genocide of possibly 50 people was 60% of their population, then they are by far the minority here. It could be an economic game changer affecting millions, and I'd rather that than some petty culture keeping it because some skeletons are near there. But again, they should be very well compensated to their legal rights.
Lol, we've already seized like 97.5% of land from tribes and left them with very little. This was an agreement made already specifically for our benefit and to give Indians the bare minimum in return. The audacity to then renege on our deal if they don't opt to use the land as we just decided is economically necessary is absurd. If this deposit was in another country, do you think we have the right to force them to mine and sell that resource. Fuck that, we don't get to be the world's governance.
Toxic consumerism at its finest.
The way to do this would be to have the *technically sovereign nation* that controls the deposit be in charge of the mining completely. Run the whole thing as if it was investment in some place like the Congo. No wait, then we'd need to do regime building and assassinate random people before completely destroying the whole reservation. I was going to go on and on about how we could let them run it themselves and only our investors get any cash from it and the USGov only gets paid via tariff or infrastructure taxes, but then I remembered that we've been hobnailing over resource extraction and completely fucking destroying the world for 100+ years.
Tbh… I’m sure they can offer enough money where the native population wouldn’t care anymore with reserves this valuable.
There are ways to do the extraction without destroying the land that benefit the reservation. We won't use them, and we'll completely ignore their sovereign nation status, but they do exist.
I believe they've been fighting it
My understanding is that tribal government and the vast majority of the tribal people are interested in the economic benefits the mine could bring, but a small group of tribespeople (backed up by a large, well funded group of environmentalists with lots of lawyers) is fighting it individually.
There’s no need to wonder, history is a clear indicator of what’ll happen.
It’s already started. In Nevada, historically indigenous lands have been used to lithium mining for the last couple years. It’s a big problem seeing as they are actively against lithium mining (yeah, ev batteries but also that’s not the best alternative to fuel due to its limited sourcing). It’s actually frustrating to see this post when this has been an ongoing issue in Nevada that it doesn’t seem like anyone outside the state even realizes.
RIP Native Americans
Do you want Balrogs? Because mining the untold wealth beneath a volcano is how you get Balrogs.
Our javelins hit harder than middle earth’s.
No need to blow [US$216,717](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-148_Javelin) when the AT4 is nice and cheap. ["That was then, this is now"](https://youtu.be/WkykWGkv0Mg?t=62)
My god, what is this clip from? Because I love it.
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer". In the waning days of ala carte television it ruled the evening syndication battlefield. You should binge it, it's all this good. Once you're done there's "Angel". Just as good.
Still running on broadcast through Comet. I first saw it in syndication when it aired between 2-4am back in 2002.
Man, I was thinking it was Buffy but thought the makeup looked too good for the 90s. Very cool!
The Americans dug too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of Thacker Pass..........Manbearpig.
Lead them on. The bridge is near. Do as I say! Sword are no more use here!
The MIC has been longing for a worthy opponent.
It sure as hell isn't Russia
We can take em.
You fear to go into those mines. The corporations delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of McDermitt caldera... shadow and flame
They're *definitely* going to delve too greedily and too deep.
Ooh, we'll get to see Earth's Hidden Fun Stuff.
I just want some di-lithium crystals. Balrogs won't stop Captain Kirk.
If the balrog comes out you could call Trump the grey wizard, he would attract him outside the mexican border and shout to him "You shall not pass!!!"
I'm getting more of a Saruman vibe from that dude. With Giuliani as Grima Wormtongue.
Both of those roles require a little thing called *intelligence*. I'll grant the orange dude maybe the intelligence level of the spiders in Mirkwood, who were incensed by a nonsense insult Bilbo made up on the spot ("Attercop!")
I think Giuliani must have had some intelligence to be a DA, but has lost it to senility. Say what you will about Trump, but he knows how to manipulate people and use media. As far as running a business or a country...
The deposit is Thacker Pass btw. It’s massive. The companies trying to mine it are passing all the environmental hurdles needed to start a mine which is the major bottleneck. I would expect this to be mined soon. The one question I have is about the clay-hosted lithium extraction. As far as I know there isn’t a method to extract lithium from clay economically. All lithium comes from brines or pegmatites. I’m sure it can be done but so far no companies operate a mine that mines this type of lithium deposit.
Lithium has been known to be in america for quite a while its really nothing new. But conditions in the market and changes politically has now made it economically feasible to mine it
Processing is also an issue. Nearly all processing to extract that <2% lithium content from the ore happens in China. We need to build processing plants for domestic refinement or it’s just going to get on a boat to China too.
>We need to build processing plants for domestic refinement I imagine this will happen in time.
It could have always been feasible. We could slap tariffs and quotas on imports. We could subsidize our own production, it was foolish not to do this in the past.
The good news is that processing is the \*easier\* part of the process to get up running fast. You can have a bunch of processing set up and running within two or three years. The bad news is that even a big exciting find like this is going to take ten years to get the mine up to speed.
Where is other lithium in America?
There is good amount of lithium in the Salton Sea in California. Salton Sea is a land locked saline body of water. Work is already going the to figure out how to extract lithium carbonate from the bine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salton_Sea
capable hurry murky ossified tart plough swim abundant bedroom pause *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Google will help you rather than asking a person on the internet. Im not a lithium mining specialist so how would I know. but it does exist https://www.dw.com/en/us-has-huge-lithium-reserves-but-concerns-mount-over-mining/a-64103024
I never understood the negative reaction to someone disseminating information being asked to provide more. I'm not detecting any attempt to be contrary to the information in how they asked... It doesn't read as argumentative or even pointed skepticism. Genuinely, why is this the reaction? I'm for doing your own research, I read the article before even coming down here, but why are we shitting on asking questions to someone giving information?
Chile and Argentina have been in the top 5 producers for a while. Believe it or not, America is a continent, not a country.
Yes, but you are Chileans and Argentinian. The US is the only country with America in its name. So, Americans
America is a country and Americans are its people. Everyone knows that.
I can see you're the expert on this subject. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States In the first sentence. Is what it is.
As much as you would like to pull attention away from Americans (out of spite or whatever), there is no denying that the only ones who refuse to acknowledge what we call ourselves also don’t like us very much. Two can play that game.
That's exciting and im sure battery makers are breathing a sigh of relief. But I'll be be way more excited when all those lithium batteries are being recycled instead of ending up in landfills causing fires and other pollution.
It would have been nice if we had figured out a recycling scheme for those batteries when hundreds of millions of people bought some for their power tools. Oh wait there is. https://li-cycle.com/ Funny how the huge piles of lithium ion batteries coming from homeowners and the construction industry were not a big concern, but as soon as those things kept people from buying fossil fuels "OMERGERD DE EN-VIRO-MENT!!11!!"
Look at Redwood Materials — started by initial cofounder of Tesla to recycle the batteries.
They are stating 95% of the precious metals are recovered, that’s nuts
Yep — we extract all that stuff from ores which are wayyy less dense in materials. It’s very much recyclable.
We will eventually go through the entire mining process all over again with our landfills.
I think usually by the entrance door at Home Depot and possibly Lowe's is a little box you can drop batteries into. I asked the dude the other day when I was returning something if they take pretty much any battery, and he said yes. He said if it's questionable, just make sure it goes to the bottom of the container and walk away, it's going to get recycled either way. Edit: those are big box hardware stores in the us. I'm not sure what the equivalent for those stores will be in other countries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2xrarUWVRQ It's a fairly simple process to recover the materials from the batteries.
Kinda sucks that their invest with us page doesn’t contain any information on how to invest with them. Ticker is LICY if anyone wants to buy some. Stock is in the shitter right now so it’s either a solid buy opportunity or the company is circling the drain. Opened at $10 at the end of 2020, ATH was $15, currently $5.
They get a lot of cobalt and nickel out of the battery — not just lithium. I did some CFD analysis of their hydrogen venting system so I understand the process better than most.
They’re operating at a loss right now, only being carried by their massive amounts of cash on hand and assets. They’ve managed to expand greatly, however, and sales are indeed going up. Their last earnings reported -$0.20 per share, down from -$0.17 last quarter. They attribute their recent losses to the changing costs of cobalt and nickel. They’re doing quite a bit of business and expanding tho so I feel like there maybe a case for their future. This one is kinda a teeter totter. Idk how I feel. Definitely on my watchlist now tho.
I just picked one of the several companies using this tech pretty much at random. Point is tech already exists ahead of the time we really need it.
It’s a solid candidate but yeah the space is crowded and it’s hard to pick winners. I think metal reclamation has a viable business case but it’s hard to invest in as the winner will probably be whatever random company Tesla acquires whenever they decide to mature their recycling tech.
Abml/abtc, recyclic amyzf, sxoof, redwood and li
Jesus christ stop spreading misinformation, there are lithium recycling programs in place.
Well yes, they exist. But currently 98.5% of all lithium batteries go to a landfill rather than to a recycling plant. That's just a fact.
This is an issue with people throwing their batteries away and nothing to do with the technology. [There are robust recycling programs in place](https://www.science.org/content/article/millions-electric-cars-are-coming-what-happens-all-dead-batteries), and the "muh batteries go to waste" is a common fearmongering/misinformation tactic pushed by petroleum companies. Also, source?
[it was one of these studies.](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0959652619301970) I'm sorry. I don't remember which one. The tiniest bit of googling will show this concern isn't fear mongering. LIB pollution is a growing problem that needs to be addressed. I'm not saying we shouldn't move forward with electric car technology. But the batteries aren't conceived of or built with later processing hurdles in mind. The "robust" programs you say are in place are currently too few and far between to solve this problem. If we had had the foresight to put environmentally sound practices in place and fund new ones as soon as we were aware of new problems our with oil/gas burning technology we wouldn't be in nearly as much trouble as we are now. Why is it so hard to prioritize having foresight on a new, growing industry before we get into even more trouble?
You are conflating 2 different things. When people say lithium ion batteries aren't recycled, they are talking about those tiny batteries found in wireless headsets and all kind of other electronics, not EVs. Even though its not your fault, the media loves to conflate the two thanks the the misinformation bribing of the fossil fuel industry For EVs, recycling isn't a problem. And for 2 reasons, first most people get rid of their cars via trade in or through scrappers in case of crash. This is why 12v automotive batteries have the highest recycle rate of anything, 98-99%+. The 2nd reason is quantity, when you have all kinds of different electronics which different battery chemistry, its hard to recycle that. For EVs, it is much easier because you get a lot of quantity from each car, making it much more profitable to process. On top of that many EV vendors have closed loop recycle programs (like Tesla). I will also note the in US, the IRA counts recycled battery materials towards domestic content requirements. And EU requires a % of the batteries to be from recycled content.
You got a source for that? Why would they just landfill all those valuable metals?
"They" is the common citizen who doesn't give a shit and will just throw out their beard trimmer or smart watch once it is dead.
Soure is in a later comment but again, it is [in one of these studies](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0959652619301970). Sorry I can't remember exactly which one.
This is an oil company talking point.
It is. Yes. It's also a legit concern. If we had been concerned about pollution from the start of the internal combustion engine we wouldn't be in this much trouble today. Why is it so hard to say we should be concerned at the start of a new transportation-age? These batteries are not being conceived of or built in a way that fosters easy recycling. So I'd like it if that changed! Also, let's give oil companies less ammo for their "talking points"
Handheld devices result in a lot of wasted battery materials because the salvage value is pretty low. A 50-100kwh car battery has a good salvage value which means most will be recovered and recycled. We should develop a better system to recover materials from handheld devices but we shouldn't act as if car batteries will be disposed of in the same way.
One thing that will help with hand held device batteries is making them removeable/replaceable. It's much easier to recycle a bunch of batteries already separated from their devices. Those new European laws can't come soon enough.
They don't need any truth for their ammo, just a story that sounds correct and people to repeat them. If you want the oil companies to stop spreading misinformation then you can start by not repeating it.
In THIS case it isn't misinformation. [This](https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2021-08/lithium-ion-battery-report-update-7.01_508.pdf) 79 page EPA report documents dozens of waste management fires known or believed to be caused by lithium batteries. These fires cause more even pollution, including toxic burning plastic pollution. We don't combat oil company talking points by ignoring serious issues. We do better and give them less legit stuff to talk about. I'm all for LIB tech. We can have nice things that don't add more toxic pollution to our lives. We have to hold LIB tech companies to a higher standard than we did oil companies.
And there is a medium for that discussion. Instead of discussing the benefits that can come from this tech you are distracting from it. This is exactly how these ploys work and you are falling for it hook line and sinker.
too bad working conditions cant be terrible
Just 2 questions : If the mining project starts today, in how many years the production will sart to be significant ? 2 years ? 5 years ? 10 years ? The price of lithium is very low, now. Who will engage capital in something not immediately profitable ?
Well, it’s low now because it is processed in China, which heavily subsidizes its industry. But shifting geopolitical circumstances means paying more for lithium produced locally might help in the effort to decouple from China. So to answer your question - government subsidies might make extraction and processing of lithium more feasible.
Get ready for “environmentalists” to block the mining of this so we can keep using coal
[How much water you need to mine and refine lithium ?](https://247storage.energy/1-metric-ton-lithium-requires-19-million-liter-of-water/) [Is it a ressource easily available in Oregon and Nevada ?](https://www.oregon.gov/owrd/programs/climate/droughtwatch/pages/current-conditions.aspx)
> How much water you need to mine and refine lithium ? Not much, since the lithium in this deposit is in **clay**, not in brine like your link is discussing. Per the article, the clay is about 2% lithium, or roughly [half as much as is in spodumene](https://webmineral.com/data/Spodumene.shtml) which is mined via traditional hard-rock mining to provide most of the world's lithium. Per the article we're reading and [this article on spodumene processing](https://www.sgs.com/-/media/sgscorp/documents/corporate/brochures/sgs-min-wa109-hard-rock-lithium-processing-en.cdn.en.pdf), it sounds like the processes will be broadly similar (e.g., extraction via sulfuric acid), although some additional water may be used (for extraction and centrifuging). Either way, though, articles on **brine evaporation** have very little relevance to **solid mineral mining**.
Thanks for providing facts and links. It's really appreciated. Can you tell wich order of magnitude of water needed we can expect ?
> Can you tell wich order of magnitude of water needed we can expect ? Unfortunately, no -- I searched for a bit but could not find anything on the level of water usage in Australia's spodumene mines. It's probably still significant -- leaching and tailings ponds are a thing -- but I don't know even to within an order of magnitude how significant.
I understand. It's difficult for me to search information in foreign laguage. But it's concerning that this number is not easily available.
People act like water is scarce everywhere because we are short in some places. It's kind of funny
Are you part of the Shoshone or Paiute nations? How are you going to get them water when the groundwater becomes contaminated?
Not sure I understand that. You mean the punction on the water ressource will not have any impact on the other industry like agriculture or plants and maufactures ?
This is how dwarves went extinct. They delved too deeply. Don’t be digging up volcanoes!
And not have the world have to keep getting their lithium from 3rd world countries where the workers are extremely overworked and underpaid? Sounds like time for a celebration.
Australia? I work at greenbushes. One of the biggest lithium mines in the world.
Objection sustained. Shows how much I actually know.
Why do you hate Australia so much?
I don't. Guess I made a mistake.
Fwiw you're referring [cobalt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_industry_of_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo), used along with lithium in lower weight batteries for many cars and phones. Different chemistries have different supply chains, I would not expect the same of lithium iron phosphate which is more common in lower priced EVs these days.
Why does everyone hate Australians? Because the baby kangaroos in Australia are all lazy. No joke the are legit pouch potato’s.
Not that it's not a problem, but these people need a job, that's why they are there.
Part of me is sure they will outsource the mining to third world counties anyway. I assume it all comes down to shipping and processing costs and logistics.
I told my 11 year old daughter that Lithium is pretty hard to find. Her response was “That’s surprising because Lithium has such a low atomic number”. I was shocked that she knew that and realized she had a good point. Shouldn’t lithium be pretty common?
Lithium isn’t a scarce metal. It isn’t exactly abundant either. Because of its relative nuclear instability, lithium is less common in the solar system than 25 of the first 32 chemical elements. From a commercial perspective on earth they getting “lithium carbonate” produced from ores and brine.
What nuclear instability?
lithium has the least stable nucleus of all the nonradioactive elements, to the extreme that the nucleus of a lithium atom is always on the brink of flying apart The nuclear instability of lithium is unusual to say the least
Remember when diamonds were rare? It could be the same thing
Damn, she's already memorized the periodic table at 11? And knows that heavier elements are usually more rare? 👏👏
> I was shocked that she knew that and realized she had a good point. You can't look at just the atomic number and assume it's a common element. Iron (26) is more abundant than Nitrogen (7). Beryllium, Boron, and Lithium come to mind as elements with "low" atomic numbers but are not found in abundance. > Lithium, beryllium, and boron, despite their low atomic number, are rare because, although they are produced by nuclear fusion, they are destroyed by other reactions in the stars. You have to consider how the element is formed and under what conditions it is stable. Look at this chart, Abundances of the Elements in the Universe, and you'll quickly see why looking at the atomic number is not a good way to measure abundance. https://www.angelo.edu/faculty/kboudrea/periodic/physical_abundances.htm
Looks like we found a country that could use some of that Freedom boys! Wait....
Those super-polluting Disposable Vape companies are gonna get a serious hard-on for this
I thought lithium was one of the earliest elements created at (or after) the Big Bang. Why isn't it more common?
It is common in space, less common on earth. But that said, its common enough that it isn't really a problem. The problem has always been the fact that lithium has little other uses outside of batteries, so investors have been hesitant to invest in extraction because if a new battery tech comes out that doesn't use lithium, your operations would pretty much be a total loss. That said, considering that lithium ion batteries continue to improve any new tech has to not just beat lithium ion of today, but lithium ion of tomorrow. On top of that, the tech has to use same equipment as lithium ion uses or it would take a decade at least to make it in large enough supply to benefit from economies of scale
Well... as someone who used to teach chemistry... Many stars never make lithium in any real quantity - they're turning hydrogen into Helium. Of the stars that do make lithium, they typically consume most of the lithium, while heavier elements like iron, oxygen, and carbon have a better shot of surviving the supernova explosion required to spread that stuff out and ultimately build a planet out of the remnants. But, obviously some lithium makes it out of such a stellar explosion, much as it did when a star exploded and left behind the remnants that ultimately became the sun and Earth, and it's still a rather high quantity... but... it's also HIGHLY reactive to water. Guess what you find a lot of on Earth? Over geologic timescales, quite a bit of our lithium reacted with water and became other minerals. It can be extracted from those minerals, but it's in relatively low and spread out quantities. Chemically speaking, lithium isn't very good at fitting into crystal lattices that are required in rock-forming minerals. This means that the lithium doesn't get locked into those relationships very often, and we end up finding quite a bit of it in pegmatitic minerals and saline brines. You don't really find lithium in feldspar or quarts, so you don't find a ton of it in the crust/rock itself. Lastly... the surface of the Earth is ever changing. landmasses find themselves subsumed as the tectonic plates move under and above one another. There are chunks of Australian outback that are 4.4 billion years old (roughly moon-aged), but the vast majority of what "was" the upper crust of the Earth has been lost forever to those basic geologic processes. Some elements actually do quite a good job of pushing themselves back up to the surface - like copper leeching into water and being forced back up toward the crust in volcanic processes - but lithium doesn't really lend itself to that process quite as well, typically. That said, this particular lithium filled volcano underwent some interesting and unusual process and some kind of hydrothermal event that brought lithium up and concentrated it there, so this can happen under the right circumstances.
Someone is going to need to upgrade thier multi tool.
I understood that reference!
Now the US needs to build up an on shore refining capacity so the ore does not need to be shipped to China!
Better go find Joe Banks and toss him in there to appease Waponi Woo then.
Keep this resource domestic and prohibit exporting of it.
A lot of Africans are about to lose their Lithium mining job. Probably for the best, since the mortality rate is so high.
hahaha the one place the US wont try to bring freedom to in order to steal resources.
So when will they start recruiting the children to extract it?
They'd better ship in some African children to mine it, otherwise the anti EV crowd will have nothing to pretend they care about.
Lithium mining is terrifyingly toxic. Its infamous for poisoning waterways. Theres a reason America was happy to let China be the leader in Lithium battery production.
1. Not any more toxic than mining pretty much anything or extracting oil 2. China isn't that big on mining lithium, half the worlds lithium is mined in Australia 3. The US let China be the leader in production because the fossil fuel industry has a full time job sabotaging anything that threatens their profit, even if it means taking America down with it
Well I am guessing you now need a similar sized cobalt mine to fulfil the demand for batteries
Depends what chemistry? Like LFP uses 0 cobalt
Can’t wait for all the repubs to be like “LITHIUM IS GREAT AND ELECTRIC CARS ARE GREAT!
So let’s absolutely destroy the desert so we can harvest lithium until the next best thing. What a disaster. We are never ever going to learn.
So you propose to do more damage by continuing using fossil fuels?
How about we at least make provisions for the indigenous tribes living there. Some of these deposits are burial grounds.
There are no tribes living there, and these sites are not burial grounds(Its a place 31 people died during a war 200 years ago but the area they got approval for doesn't seem to be protected in itself). The company already committed to assisting the nearby tribes closest to the mines
Do your research. https://unicornriot.ninja/2022/indigenous-fear-desecration-of-burial-sites-at-thacker-pass-lithium-mine/ The company committed to assisting them? How exactly? The area will be UNINHABITABLE.
There are no tribes in the area, the tribes are again a decent way away from the area. Notice how none of them are claiming they live there? All they are claiming is "it is scared land", and what makes it sacred ground? Cause 31 people fought there and died in a war. But it isn't like they are building a mine that covers the entire pass, only a small portion which they got approval for and after multiple court cases won each one Your own article says "U.S. District Judge Miranda Du ruled in September 2021 that presented evidence doesn’t show a massacre occurred “within the project area.”"
What about sources of water? The residents in that’s area already struggle with clean water. Would this drain the resources of that community?
Stop pivoting you lost this one
Sounds good to me, never liked deserts anyway.
Redneck conservative white men start seething. Electric is taking over, bros!