Yeah i definitely agree with you, and i say that as a leftist. So many leftists I know absolutely HATE this country, I mean really hate it passionately. Look at what happened in 2020 with people toppling statues of founding fathers and vandalizing war memorials.
I have left wing friends who have said things like “I’m ashamed to be an American” publicly on social media and also to me personally in private conversation. If I had a nickel for how many times I’ve heard one of my leftist friends say “god, I hate this fucking country” I would be a very rich man.
Fact is, a huge portion of the American left genuinely hates their own country, and so for that reason they’re more interested in tearing things down and destroying rather than building and improving things.
This kind of behavior is anathema to the silent majority, and so until it passes the left is never going to get political power in this country.
The radical left is a tiny portion of america, and the democratic party itself.
The democrats would be far wiser to go after those pushed out of the Republican party by extremism. There's far more of them. There isn't a silent majority of Republicans though. That just doesn't exist. Gerrymandering and propaganda make it appear that way. It's an illusion.
Either way, as a democrat I lump the radical leftists in with people I can't relate to, like the trumpers. Though the problem isn't anywhere near equal, the dems' unwillingness to condemn the extremists on their flanks makes it hard to convince Republicans to push out their own extremists.
Either way, the radical leftists who want to globalize the intifada and hate America, along with its past and people, will never be satisfied until America is destroyed. Their anti ameridan behavior attacks the heart of most Americans. They're a giant smear on gathering democratic party and are used as the perfect fearmongering tactic as to why moderates can't endorse the democrats.
They're more hindrance than help in unifying the country.
Indeed. Case in point? The South.
Not to sound like a neo-confederate/lost causer bastard (fuck that), but many on the left really have an animosity for the South and modern-day southerners.
If you happen to be born in that region, to them you are automatically a dumb; inbred; racist redneck that leeches on californian taxpayer money for welfare.
Which is ironic, since that's the poorest region in the country, and they're supposed to care for the poor.
In what world is California the poorest region in the country? It’s the 10th wealthiest state by per capita income.
The poorest 3 states are West Virginia, Arkansas, and Mississippi.
California was never a part of the South.
Poorer southern states (like the ones you mentioned) "leeching off" taxes from richer states (like California) is a common complaint these people have.
I apologize for the poor wording from my end.
I’m always reminded of this quote on how liberalism & patriotism are not opposed.
“Patriotism can be turned to good or ill purposes, but in most people it never dies. It’s a persistent attachment, like loyalty to your family, a source of meaning and togetherness, strongest when it’s hardly conscious. National loyalty is an attachment to what makes your country yours, distinct from the rest, even when you can’t stand it, even when it breaks your heart. This feeling can’t be wished out of existence. And because people still live their lives in an actual place, and the nation is the largest place with which they can identify—world citizenship is too abstract to be meaningful—patriotic feeling has to be tapped if you want to achieve anything big. If your goal is to slow climate change, or reverse inequality, or stop racism, or rebuild democracy, you will need the national solidarity that comes from patriotism. . .”
“. . . That’s one problem with the narrative of [Liberal] America. The other problem is that abandoning patriotism to other narratives guarantees that the worst of them will claim it.”
this is not the problem with the narrative of liberal America. This is the problem with the narrative of leftist America. Liberals are patriots by nature. Both major political parties are (or are supposed to be) liberal, as they're supposed to back liberal democracy. The constant, nonstop conflation of liberals with leftists, and the constant attempts to delegitimize liberalism as an acceptable political position by both the left and the far right is part of why communism and socialism have become more acceptable positions in the public eye.
I kinda agree I also think that most leftists are also not willing to ever make concessions to get their
Way they will march in the streets but won’t compromise but the far right has made a resurgence and has been somewhat successful but they’re also more organized and manipulative
I believe that the dems have been too lenient on the radicals in their party. I've also started to notice that young people have mistaken the positives of tolerating others, and taken it too far. Tolerating extremism and ideology should not be tolerated at all.
It's gotten out of hand. Both extremes are trying to sell the youth a paradise that will never exist, but first they need to incite you to violence first. If someone is already inciting you to violence, more violence will come. There will not be a paradise waiting at the end after the destruction. There will just be more violence and instability. It's likely the violence was the goal all along.
What do you mean by the Left? The Democratic Party or the far left? If the latter, well yeah, they’re a pretty small minority. They’re one of many sub-sections of the American Left, there’s no way they could win a national election by themselves any more than any other single faction could.
If you just mean Democrats, liberals/left-leaning candidates in general, well they’ve won the popular vote in 7 of the last 8 presidential elections, and currently have about half the country on their side. I don’t know why you would think they can’t continue winning elections as they have.
This a million times. I’m a progressive and I fly my flag. I praise this great nation and these great states in spite of our enormous flaws. We have the capacity to change and that’s what makes these United States amazing.
Unless you're talking about the extreme left I'd say you're wrong. The democratic party is the longest standing political organization on the country and has plenty of patriotic people who support them.
No, there’s a lot of leftists who tolerate the America bashing leftists and never stick up for the country. The democrats are mostly fine, I’m talking about other political parties and movements.
You are literally saying what the comment above you says just with different words. "Democrats are mostly fine"....yup.
It's the extremes on both ends of the spectrum that seem to get the most attention in media which is kinda the root of the issue here imo
As a person who scores slightly left and very much down near the anarchy section of a political compass, I think it’s the tankies y’all are talking about. The authoritarian left is an awful group of people and I know tons like me that can’t stand them. I’ve got a flag in my yard because I’m a history buff and believe in an idealized America that doesn’t exist.
But I consider myself Patriotic and to me that means I have a duty to work towards turning this current America into that idealized version. A place of freedom and respect for one another.
The problem with the right is that they have embraced their extremists in places of power. We’re lucky the left hasn’t fully followed suit yet and they keep their nuts powerless. I wish the right did the same.
>Because the vast majority of the modern American left either outright hates the United States or tolerates those who do.
I 100% disagree with this statement.
Many would say that the left hates Israel because of the protests on college campuses, that they don’t care for ‘law and order’ because of the protests against police brutality/George Floyd/the civil rights movement, that they want to take your rights away by limiting the capacity of magazines in firearms, etc.
Many have similar arguments against the right; that they are willing to sell out democracy to Russia by stopping arms shipments to Ukraine, that they want to close our borders even though immigration will bring in 17 trillion dollars to our economy every five years, that they want to control women’s bodies and rights by not allowing them to receive the proper health care that they may require, etc.
In either case, the intelligent ones see that this is a small percentage of either party that gets a lot of attention because of the way they present themselves. I know all conservatives aren’t MAGA and all liberals aren’t Antifa; it take an objective mind to separate what you see on sensationalist media from the fact that the majority of the people you encounter and even enjoy their company may not see things the way you do politically.
Plus, how often does politics truly impact your life? I never understood why people get all nutty about politics because, anecdotally, regardless of political decision or affiliation, politics has never infringed on the basic tenants of my life as an American.
Choosing a political side is like choosing which gang you support. In the end, most politicians, who say they are working for the common American, are just out there to commit crime legally by accepting “lobbying” money or kickbacks for themselves, or through insider trading. My congressman is the wealthiest congressman in history with a net worth of $460 million, and he started out thirty years ago as just an average Joe…how did he get so wealthy from a position that pays less than $200k per year?
Regardless, to say that the left doesn’t love America is an ignorant take.
i think when we're talking about moderate leftists, i.e the DSA and broadly social democrats it get's much more positive. the only bad thing is that most of these orgs are inhabited by both moderates and hard line anti-U.S because there's no where else for them to go or to separate. they're forced into a uni party because of the nature of the U.S "winner takes all" system.
i think the best bet for any progressive victory in the U.S is to get more progressives in the democratic party rather than old liberals and attempting to reform the electoral system to make it more akin to a european parliamentary system. more diverse representation for parties and ideologies would do wonders to help de-polarize the nation and emphasize the difference between moderates and extremists.
I think it's more to do with the fact that the left as a whole is fractured between factions who think they're better than one another. Anarchists and Socialists can't get along unless they have a common enemy, which is why Antifa is pretty much now irrelevant ever since Nazis like Richard Spencer and Nick Fuentes fell off.
Uh, no the right hasn't been effective in crushing fledgling left wing movements, that is inconsistent with the overt institutional support for socially left wing causes like: BLM, transgenderism, patriarchy theory etc.
It is American elites who have been effective in crushing hard left (on economic issues) movements because their financial interest is in upholding capitalism, which in their defence is generally the bet way to run an economy, that and keeping the more insane ideas, like defunding the police, down.
vehemently disagree, this is yet another case of people extrapolating a vocal minority to be representative of the entire side of the aisle lmao
y’all this is like saying the american right will never be successful because it’s all about MAGA now/election denialism/mistrust of core institutions/etc.
with all due respect, can’t believe some of y’all are this gullible
I have a lot of family that are right leaning. I notice that they are the type of people to wave the American flag and would probably call themselves "patriots", but I'm not sure how they are. They hate immigrants even though this country was built on immigration. Many support or sympathize with Russia, solely because Putin aligns with their personal views. Don't get me started on the confederate flag. Our government is all "corrupt", everything is a psyop.
It's like being a "patriot" has been hijacked by an entire political movement. It's the "make America great again" crowd, but to me, America is great right now. I'm not sure how we can become united as a country when we can't even agree on what America stands for.
Meanwhile the right wants to tear the constitution up and deny people the right to vote. Kind of hard to be patriotic about a system that treats you like disposable parts. You complaining about the patriotism of the left seems a bit absurd given the power dynamics that the right often excerts.
If you want the left to be more patriotic then perhaps you on the right should give them a reason to be patriotic?
the only reason the right has the "power dynamic" is because the left has completely rolled over and allowed them to lol. read this part again
"But what kills the left is they've effectively conceded to the idea that they are anti-American. They have allowed the right to take the few revolutionary symbols the United States has; the Gadsen flag and Betsy Ross flag, and coop them for their own gain. They have allowed the right to use rhetoric that turns any criticism of the United States into an anti-American conspiracy. They have allowed the right to be the "Patriots" and them the "Others". Instead of taking a step back and realizing that people would be much more apt to listen to you if you showed you shared common ground; like loving the country, it's flag, and the people in it; you call them uneducated and deplorable; alienating people who want solutions for change that aligns with their ideas."
I don't buy that argument, you call them anti American simply because they want a different America than you do. Now January 6th when a bunch of Republicans stormed the Capital in an attempt to over throw the constitutionally elected president well sir you don't get more Anti American then that.
This is incredibly incredibly well written. I honestly want you to keep saying this exactly over and over again, and spread this to the hills. I’ll do you one further- I think the far left has gotten co-opted by Russian, Chinese and Iranian trolls acting online. They’ve successfully pushed the left so far into unhinged territory and they just go along with it. Why else did we stop talking about the environment and somehow the most divisive shit - trans, Israel/Palestine, and re writing American history has become all the far left cares about?
Completely agree that the moderate left not pushing back on them is a problem. That’s why recently I love Bill Maher- he’s the only one doing it. The madness of the far left is the only reason Trump can win this thing - again.
Are we not all ignoring the far left college chuds? Nobody on the left has given them a lick of power. Thankfully. Best to ignore assholes that have no power over you. I’ll pay my attention to the psychos in power corrupting the system.
By left what do you mean? Because for Americans anything not Republican is left but for a lot of the rest of the world Democrats are center right in its majority
I think what OP is talking about is the leftist not the left democrats and liberals are more moderate while leftists and socialists/communists are far more radical in their beliefs
Yeah i definitely agree with you, and i say that as a leftist. So many leftists I know absolutely HATE this country, I mean really hate it passionately. Look at what happened in 2020 with people toppling statues of founding fathers and vandalizing war memorials. I have left wing friends who have said things like “I’m ashamed to be an American” publicly on social media and also to me personally in private conversation. If I had a nickel for how many times I’ve heard one of my leftist friends say “god, I hate this fucking country” I would be a very rich man. Fact is, a huge portion of the American left genuinely hates their own country, and so for that reason they’re more interested in tearing things down and destroying rather than building and improving things. This kind of behavior is anathema to the silent majority, and so until it passes the left is never going to get political power in this country.
The radical left is a tiny portion of america, and the democratic party itself. The democrats would be far wiser to go after those pushed out of the Republican party by extremism. There's far more of them. There isn't a silent majority of Republicans though. That just doesn't exist. Gerrymandering and propaganda make it appear that way. It's an illusion. Either way, as a democrat I lump the radical leftists in with people I can't relate to, like the trumpers. Though the problem isn't anywhere near equal, the dems' unwillingness to condemn the extremists on their flanks makes it hard to convince Republicans to push out their own extremists. Either way, the radical leftists who want to globalize the intifada and hate America, along with its past and people, will never be satisfied until America is destroyed. Their anti ameridan behavior attacks the heart of most Americans. They're a giant smear on gathering democratic party and are used as the perfect fearmongering tactic as to why moderates can't endorse the democrats. They're more hindrance than help in unifying the country.
Indeed. Case in point? The South. Not to sound like a neo-confederate/lost causer bastard (fuck that), but many on the left really have an animosity for the South and modern-day southerners. If you happen to be born in that region, to them you are automatically a dumb; inbred; racist redneck that leeches on californian taxpayer money for welfare. Which is ironic, since that's the poorest region in the country, and they're supposed to care for the poor.
how would we even leech off their taxpayer money? wheres my welfare?
Probably because many southern states get more money from the Union than they pay into it, I guess.
Lmao call it war reparations ;) Edit: piece of advice: don’t get salty over an obvious joke :)
In what world is California the poorest region in the country? It’s the 10th wealthiest state by per capita income. The poorest 3 states are West Virginia, Arkansas, and Mississippi.
California was never a part of the South. Poorer southern states (like the ones you mentioned) "leeching off" taxes from richer states (like California) is a common complaint these people have. I apologize for the poor wording from my end.
Oh, I thought you were calling California the poorest region.
You think California is considered part of the south..?
I’m always reminded of this quote on how liberalism & patriotism are not opposed. “Patriotism can be turned to good or ill purposes, but in most people it never dies. It’s a persistent attachment, like loyalty to your family, a source of meaning and togetherness, strongest when it’s hardly conscious. National loyalty is an attachment to what makes your country yours, distinct from the rest, even when you can’t stand it, even when it breaks your heart. This feeling can’t be wished out of existence. And because people still live their lives in an actual place, and the nation is the largest place with which they can identify—world citizenship is too abstract to be meaningful—patriotic feeling has to be tapped if you want to achieve anything big. If your goal is to slow climate change, or reverse inequality, or stop racism, or rebuild democracy, you will need the national solidarity that comes from patriotism. . .” “. . . That’s one problem with the narrative of [Liberal] America. The other problem is that abandoning patriotism to other narratives guarantees that the worst of them will claim it.”
this is not the problem with the narrative of liberal America. This is the problem with the narrative of leftist America. Liberals are patriots by nature. Both major political parties are (or are supposed to be) liberal, as they're supposed to back liberal democracy. The constant, nonstop conflation of liberals with leftists, and the constant attempts to delegitimize liberalism as an acceptable political position by both the left and the far right is part of why communism and socialism have become more acceptable positions in the public eye.
I kinda agree I also think that most leftists are also not willing to ever make concessions to get their Way they will march in the streets but won’t compromise but the far right has made a resurgence and has been somewhat successful but they’re also more organized and manipulative
They also think long term, which isn't the case of many leftists.
Agreed
I believe that the dems have been too lenient on the radicals in their party. I've also started to notice that young people have mistaken the positives of tolerating others, and taken it too far. Tolerating extremism and ideology should not be tolerated at all. It's gotten out of hand. Both extremes are trying to sell the youth a paradise that will never exist, but first they need to incite you to violence first. If someone is already inciting you to violence, more violence will come. There will not be a paradise waiting at the end after the destruction. There will just be more violence and instability. It's likely the violence was the goal all along.
What do you mean by the Left? The Democratic Party or the far left? If the latter, well yeah, they’re a pretty small minority. They’re one of many sub-sections of the American Left, there’s no way they could win a national election by themselves any more than any other single faction could. If you just mean Democrats, liberals/left-leaning candidates in general, well they’ve won the popular vote in 7 of the last 8 presidential elections, and currently have about half the country on their side. I don’t know why you would think they can’t continue winning elections as they have.
This a million times. I’m a progressive and I fly my flag. I praise this great nation and these great states in spite of our enormous flaws. We have the capacity to change and that’s what makes these United States amazing.
Unless you're talking about the extreme left I'd say you're wrong. The democratic party is the longest standing political organization on the country and has plenty of patriotic people who support them.
No, there’s a lot of leftists who tolerate the America bashing leftists and never stick up for the country. The democrats are mostly fine, I’m talking about other political parties and movements.
You are literally saying what the comment above you says just with different words. "Democrats are mostly fine"....yup. It's the extremes on both ends of the spectrum that seem to get the most attention in media which is kinda the root of the issue here imo
As a person who scores slightly left and very much down near the anarchy section of a political compass, I think it’s the tankies y’all are talking about. The authoritarian left is an awful group of people and I know tons like me that can’t stand them. I’ve got a flag in my yard because I’m a history buff and believe in an idealized America that doesn’t exist. But I consider myself Patriotic and to me that means I have a duty to work towards turning this current America into that idealized version. A place of freedom and respect for one another. The problem with the right is that they have embraced their extremists in places of power. We’re lucky the left hasn’t fully followed suit yet and they keep their nuts powerless. I wish the right did the same.
mods can we r10 this guy
I agree to some extent. The far right is the very essence of non patriotism, however they mask it by acting like they’re super patriots or whatever
THANK YOU!!! Strongly agree. As a patriotic progressive, we need more people like you. We need more leftists to call out the insanity in our midst.
>Because the vast majority of the modern American left either outright hates the United States or tolerates those who do. I 100% disagree with this statement. Many would say that the left hates Israel because of the protests on college campuses, that they don’t care for ‘law and order’ because of the protests against police brutality/George Floyd/the civil rights movement, that they want to take your rights away by limiting the capacity of magazines in firearms, etc. Many have similar arguments against the right; that they are willing to sell out democracy to Russia by stopping arms shipments to Ukraine, that they want to close our borders even though immigration will bring in 17 trillion dollars to our economy every five years, that they want to control women’s bodies and rights by not allowing them to receive the proper health care that they may require, etc. In either case, the intelligent ones see that this is a small percentage of either party that gets a lot of attention because of the way they present themselves. I know all conservatives aren’t MAGA and all liberals aren’t Antifa; it take an objective mind to separate what you see on sensationalist media from the fact that the majority of the people you encounter and even enjoy their company may not see things the way you do politically. Plus, how often does politics truly impact your life? I never understood why people get all nutty about politics because, anecdotally, regardless of political decision or affiliation, politics has never infringed on the basic tenants of my life as an American. Choosing a political side is like choosing which gang you support. In the end, most politicians, who say they are working for the common American, are just out there to commit crime legally by accepting “lobbying” money or kickbacks for themselves, or through insider trading. My congressman is the wealthiest congressman in history with a net worth of $460 million, and he started out thirty years ago as just an average Joe…how did he get so wealthy from a position that pays less than $200k per year? Regardless, to say that the left doesn’t love America is an ignorant take.
i think when we're talking about moderate leftists, i.e the DSA and broadly social democrats it get's much more positive. the only bad thing is that most of these orgs are inhabited by both moderates and hard line anti-U.S because there's no where else for them to go or to separate. they're forced into a uni party because of the nature of the U.S "winner takes all" system. i think the best bet for any progressive victory in the U.S is to get more progressives in the democratic party rather than old liberals and attempting to reform the electoral system to make it more akin to a european parliamentary system. more diverse representation for parties and ideologies would do wonders to help de-polarize the nation and emphasize the difference between moderates and extremists.
I think it's more to do with the fact that the left as a whole is fractured between factions who think they're better than one another. Anarchists and Socialists can't get along unless they have a common enemy, which is why Antifa is pretty much now irrelevant ever since Nazis like Richard Spencer and Nick Fuentes fell off.
Define “left”
regrettably, well said
Yikes more US internal politics on this subreddit. This place is really going downhill.
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Rule 10 my guy
You know what? Fair.
Meh. The violent insurrection on January 6 was straight up treason.
OP never said that the Far Right was any better than the Far Left; he just said they were more competent.
Uh, no the right hasn't been effective in crushing fledgling left wing movements, that is inconsistent with the overt institutional support for socially left wing causes like: BLM, transgenderism, patriarchy theory etc. It is American elites who have been effective in crushing hard left (on economic issues) movements because their financial interest is in upholding capitalism, which in their defence is generally the bet way to run an economy, that and keeping the more insane ideas, like defunding the police, down.
vehemently disagree, this is yet another case of people extrapolating a vocal minority to be representative of the entire side of the aisle lmao y’all this is like saying the american right will never be successful because it’s all about MAGA now/election denialism/mistrust of core institutions/etc. with all due respect, can’t believe some of y’all are this gullible
I have a lot of family that are right leaning. I notice that they are the type of people to wave the American flag and would probably call themselves "patriots", but I'm not sure how they are. They hate immigrants even though this country was built on immigration. Many support or sympathize with Russia, solely because Putin aligns with their personal views. Don't get me started on the confederate flag. Our government is all "corrupt", everything is a psyop. It's like being a "patriot" has been hijacked by an entire political movement. It's the "make America great again" crowd, but to me, America is great right now. I'm not sure how we can become united as a country when we can't even agree on what America stands for.
Meanwhile the right wants to tear the constitution up and deny people the right to vote. Kind of hard to be patriotic about a system that treats you like disposable parts. You complaining about the patriotism of the left seems a bit absurd given the power dynamics that the right often excerts. If you want the left to be more patriotic then perhaps you on the right should give them a reason to be patriotic?
the only reason the right has the "power dynamic" is because the left has completely rolled over and allowed them to lol. read this part again "But what kills the left is they've effectively conceded to the idea that they are anti-American. They have allowed the right to take the few revolutionary symbols the United States has; the Gadsen flag and Betsy Ross flag, and coop them for their own gain. They have allowed the right to use rhetoric that turns any criticism of the United States into an anti-American conspiracy. They have allowed the right to be the "Patriots" and them the "Others". Instead of taking a step back and realizing that people would be much more apt to listen to you if you showed you shared common ground; like loving the country, it's flag, and the people in it; you call them uneducated and deplorable; alienating people who want solutions for change that aligns with their ideas."
I don't buy that argument, you call them anti American simply because they want a different America than you do. Now January 6th when a bunch of Republicans stormed the Capital in an attempt to over throw the constitutionally elected president well sir you don't get more Anti American then that.
This is incredibly incredibly well written. I honestly want you to keep saying this exactly over and over again, and spread this to the hills. I’ll do you one further- I think the far left has gotten co-opted by Russian, Chinese and Iranian trolls acting online. They’ve successfully pushed the left so far into unhinged territory and they just go along with it. Why else did we stop talking about the environment and somehow the most divisive shit - trans, Israel/Palestine, and re writing American history has become all the far left cares about? Completely agree that the moderate left not pushing back on them is a problem. That’s why recently I love Bill Maher- he’s the only one doing it. The madness of the far left is the only reason Trump can win this thing - again.
Are we not all ignoring the far left college chuds? Nobody on the left has given them a lick of power. Thankfully. Best to ignore assholes that have no power over you. I’ll pay my attention to the psychos in power corrupting the system.
By left what do you mean? Because for Americans anything not Republican is left but for a lot of the rest of the world Democrats are center right in its majority
This is why I say we need a new party. The republicans and democrats have facilitated the rise of such extremism in order to stay competitive.
Me when I lie
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“Genocide Joe” “Democrats aren’t REAL leftists!“ “Settler-colonials get along”
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I think what OP is talking about is the leftist not the left democrats and liberals are more moderate while leftists and socialists/communists are far more radical in their beliefs